PBEM DD04: Clash of the Titans

So you always wanted to take on a SID AI, but hated when they ganged up on you, well now here’s your chance to get even with them. There’s a pair SID AI (Aztecs & Zulu) in a locked alliance waiting for you and the other human players. To win you’ll need either conquest or domination. I’ll try to setup embassies with the other humans, so we can work on the AI first before settling down to attacking one another.

Number of human players: 4
Number of AI: 2
Level: SID
Size: Large
Map: Normal weather & terrain on a Pangaea Map
Barbarians: Off
SGL: Off
Statue of Zeus: Minor Wonder requires Horses
Knights Templar: Minor Wonder requires Iron
Great Library: Add a library to each continental city (like TOA) (no free techs)

Starting bonus: Humans: 2 settlers, 2 workers, 2 Conquistadors & 200g
AI: 6 settlers, 10 workers, 18 Hoplites, 12 Immortals & 3 C-Scouts

Special rules: Only victory conditions are conquest or domination
All players can build AC (Mathematics) & Crusaders (Theology)
AI in a locked alliance – Humans vs. AI is Always War
AI can build Immortals, Hoplites, S-Mercs & Sipahi
AI GA when Immortals, Hoplites, S-Mercs or Sipahi first win
AI start with Warrior Code & Pottery
Zulu are now AGR & MIL

Roster: Cyc (Persia)
Soul_Warrior (Iroquois)
Calis (Celts)
DenyD (Dutch)
AI (Zulu)
AI (Aztecs)

Starting save has been sent to Cyc

Please review the start:

You should have 3 settlers, 3 workers, 2 Conquistadors & 200g

Conquistadors, Impi and Chasqui Scouts should not start a Golden Age (forgot to check)
Everyone should have contact (embassy) with everyone else. (forgot to check)
The Great Library should add a library to all of your cities (forgot to check)
Statue of Zeus is a minor wonder and you need horses (forgot to check)
Knights Templar is a minor wonder and you need iron (forgot to check)
Ancient Cavalry is available to all with Mathematics and you need horses (forgot to check)
Crusaders are available to all with Theology and you need iron (forgot to check)
The forgot to checks I'll do if no one else does when my turn comes around.

Everyone should declare war on the Zulu & Aztecs on turn 1.

If anything is wrong, now is the time to fix it.

Each player has 5 luxuries, one of which he has a monopoly on.

All of the uranium is in lands that will probably be in the hands of the AI when the game begins, so let's take them out before nukes are available. You will have easy access to the rest of the resources.

There are an equal number of goody huts on each subcontinent.

Changes to original plan:
I couldn't give any boats as a starting unit
AI got only Warrior Code & Pottery as starting techs
Barbarians are set to sedentary

I had a revelation this morning about why there are barbarians. If you add goody huts to the map, there has to barbarians available in the game. I also realized that the goody huts in this game will be land mines with 90% giving barbarians.

So, I'll be resending the start again tonight with the following changes:
1. No goody huts
2. Barbarians back to off (hopefully)
3. AI tribes will get all first level techs

And for being so patient, I'll give each player 5 of their primary AA offensive units (Immortals, Gallic Swords, Mounted Warriors & Ancient Cavalry) to use on the AI C-Scouts

Just curious, but since we all have met already, is anyone interested in combined research to get us ahead of the AI?

im uber cool with combined research.
we WILL need it VS SID ai.
im rushing for the WHEEL at full speed.
ill be more than willing to share it later (or sooner)
anyone got BRONZE?

GPS calis.

The starting techs are:
Persia: BW & Masonry
Dutch: Alphabet & Pottery
Iroquois: Alphabet & Pottery
Celts: CB & Pottery

I looking to start researching either Writing or Mathematics (if I can get Masonry)

Should we start with a tech swap of all?

But after that it could be difficult to find a tech path where 4 civs can research something. How shall we solve that?

I turned off research for the first turn so we can discuss this.

GPS to DenyD...

techs we all LACK:
warrior code, wheel

i suggest:
i go for wheel (eta 20?) > HORSEBACK
IRON by PERSIA, followed by POLY? currecncy? - debatable.
someone go for warrior code, followed by writing
someone go for MATH, followed by MYST.

i dont have the exact beaker cost, but this seems like a fair deal.
naturally, we all share when we get our respective techs.

BTW, for my first turn i had 3 settlers, 3 workers, 2 conquistadors.
was that the correct amount?

writing we can get later.
we have zero chance of getting philo, so we shouldnt bother.

Here's my first pass on combined research:

Persia: (32)
Iron Working (6)
Code of Laws (10)
Philosophy (6) (taking Republic as bonus)
Literature (10)

Celts: (28)
Mysticism (4)
Polytheism (12)
Map Making (12)

Dutch: (32)
Writing (8)
Mathematics (8)
Currency (16)

Iroquois: (32)
The Wheel (4)
Warrior Code (3)
Horseback Riding (5)
Construction (20)

Any suggestions? I tried to take into account your UU and starting techs. I don't see any bottlenecks.

X-post with SW: I think we've got a pretty good chance for Philosophy as the AI will probably go IW->HBR->Writing

Basically I agree, but I do not think that in an AW game Republic is very interesting due to war weariness. Shouldn't we go for Monarchy?

Your tech runs look good, denyd. Sorry I couldn't get into Civfanatics last night. Don't know why I couldn't (strong winds, stolen bandwidth, whatever).

So we'll be getting a new starting save tonight? Sounds good, will miss the goody huts. But no Barbs and 5 Immortals sounds good. ;)

If we start off with a Tech swap and keep trading Techs, (I realize the AI will have the first level of Techs) at what point will we be helping the AI, if at all? Will they be so far ahead of us that we will always be playing catch up?

I think I tried playing SID about 4 years ago.

Basically I agree, but I do not think that in an AW game Republic is very interesting due to war weariness. Shouldn't we go for Monarchy?

Good point, Calis. All that war will catch up to us if we change to Republic. Maybe we should change it to we declare war with AI when we meet them. That would give us a brief chance to use Republic, and if they declare on us, we'd get a little hapiness.

Well, I am a Religious civ and changing the government is done quickly, but for the others it could be many wasted turns.

I actually would skip Republic here and go for Monarchy immediately.

Persia should be able to get Polytheism from you before they complete Philosophy, so the tech distribution will still work.

I'll make the changes and ship out the new start file tonight (along the the 4 other PBEM games I got today)

Restart received. gps to SW.

War declared and starting techs offered. Researching IW.

monarchy is the way to go.
this is really AW.
first we take Manhattan then we take the world :D

sent techs to all concerned parties.
started WHEEL (due in 19, will drop to 10 or so after i plop town 2 and 3)

gps calis

GPS to DenyD...

@Cyc: Could you please make sure to gift me the initial techs next now. you forgot to accept the deal...

Sent any missing techs that I had to each player - War declared on Aztecs & Zulu

GPS to Cyc

I didn't forget, Calis. As I understood it, it was to be a trade (not a gift), and I followed standard trade procedures.

One thing we MIGHT want to look at is how much of an advantage Calis and SW will get for not declaring war on both AI tribes. Now who forgot? ;)

gps to SW.

I didn't forget, Calis. As I understood it, it was to be a trade (not a gift), and I followed standard trade procedures.

One thing we MIGHT want to look at is how much of an advantage Calis and SW will get for not declaring war on both AI tribes. Now who forgot? ;)

gps to SW.

Oh, if you think I (or we) did it on intend, we can restart at any time...:rolleyes:

But it is that simple: I forgot.

But gifting te techs would speed up the start of research I think. But we MIGHT be able to start next turn...

item one: i \FORGOT to declare!
item two: sent ALL techs i know to humans.
THEN I GOT WHEEL from AI.
and sent it out as well!!!!
as i stand, i could use a few donations.... ;) hint, hint, hodge, nodge.....
item 3: gps calis

I realize you two just forgot. I just didn't like being accused of forgetting when I didn't. ;) It's OK.

If Soul Warrior sends me the Wheel, I would be more than happy to make a large donation of forgiveness. :D

If Soul Warrior sends me the Wheel, I would be more than happy to make a large donation of forgiveness. :D
:cool: already done [pimp]

GPS to DenyD...

GPS to Cyc

gps to SW.

made war, sent save

GPS to DenyD...

GPS to Cyc

gps to SW.

GPS to DenyD...

GPS to Cyc

gps to SW.

gpd calisssss

GPS to DenyD...

GPS to Cyc

Just an FYI: I'm about 15 turns from Writing (it will drop as I grow)

Also, 2 Conquistadors sure do cover alot of ground :D

gps to SW.

HBR in 6 or is it 8?
gps calis

Mysticism in 6-7 turns...

GPS to DenyD...

GPS to Cyc

gps to SW.

after running around the jungles the first conq brigade has encountered the man eaters!
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=186019&stc=1&d=1218907122

HBR in 7

gps calis

GPS to DenyD...

I've got a Conquistador heading to check out the bad guys home land and then he's going to try to sneak down the coast to see who's down there.

GPS to Cyc

I've got a Conquistador heading to check out the bad guys home land and then he's going to try to sneak down the coast to see who's down there.

GPS to Cyc
As we all have embassies, shouldn't we all know who is where? As you set the game up, denyd, should you have seen all the Capitals pop up?

gps to SW.

capitals of everyone is visible on the minimap.
but a bit more detail is always nice.

gps calis

GPS to DenyD...

GPS to Cyc

My intention is to skirt the coastline and reach my southern neighbor. That will allow luxury trading once we have Map Making and can each build a harbor. A fully visible path from capital to capital is required for trading. With our combined research I'm guessing we'll have that done in 30-40 turns and at SID every additional luxury helps.

Deleon (my Conquistador) has reached the end of the isthmus and has turned south. Now all he has to do is avoid the nasty beasties to his east.

gps to SW.

gps calis.
2 minutes :D

killed me an aztec :ninja:

GPS to DenyD...

killed me an aztec

Very nice work [party] - that's one down and about 50 to go

GPS to Cyc

Computer is down and sent to manufacturer. Will be checking in occasionally, but It will be difficult or impossible to find a computer to install CIV3 on. Making this post from a library in West Virginia now.

I will return.

gps to SW.

GPS to DenyD...

GPS to Cyc

Writing due in 7 as Cortez keeps creeping southward in search of a safe haven

gps to SW.

ill be having troubled access for the next 2 weeks, and after that, no civ for 2 months.

Beorn-eL-Feared has offered to sub for me.

please send him my saves till i get back.
PM him for email info.

i have provided him with my passwords.

almost forgot - sent him both saves, CYC.
no need to resend :D

bolducf at gmail com

Calis, I'll need your email.

Welcome Beorn, you'll probably get your sword bloody in this one :ninja:

A quick rule change review for Beorn (and a reminder for the rest of us)
All players can build AC (Mathematics) & Crusaders (Theology)
Statue of Zeus: Minor Wonder requires Horses
Knights Templar: Minor Wonder requires Iron
Great Library: Add a library to each continental city (like TOA) (no free techs)
Only victory conditions are conquest or domination
There shouldn't be any barbarians as there shouldn't be any huts.
AI can build Immortals, Hoplites, Swiss Mercs & Sipahi
AI GA when Immortals, Hoplites, Swiss Mercs or Sipahi first win
Zulu are now AGR & MIL
Each AI started with 18 Hoplites & 12 Immortals

Also back on post #8 was a research plan for the human players to try to get a jump on the AI

It was great playing with you, Soul Warrior. Have fun.

Welcome Beorn-eL-Feared.

I just realized that I must be up in all 3 PBEM's he lend me. I'll try fixing that tonight ASAP.

I just realized that I must be up in all 3 PBEM's he lend me. I'll try fixing that tonight ASAP.

Welcome Beorn, and I PMed you my Email address...

GPS to DenyD...

Next turn I'll have Mysticism

GPS to Cyc

DeLeon has turned SW and hopes to meet a friend soon - Writing in about 6

BTW: For those who check these things my build of Colossus is just to re-direct shields from a chop

gps to BeF.

GPS to Calis

GPS to DenyD...

Gifted Mysticism to everybody...

Captured an Aztec worker but this exposed a Conquistador to an Immortal...(at least my Conquistador is on a hill)

The Conquistador has an 82% chance of surviving the Immortal (18% run away & 64% to win). Let's see how the RNG gods are going to play this game. Thanks for Mysticism, I'll be sending Writing in about 5 more turns.

Just to let the rest of you know my plan is to use AC as my main offensive force for attacking the AI.

GPS to Cyc

gps to BeF. IW in 4.

Just a quick update:

Cyc
Beorn (up)
Calis
DenyD

GPS to Calis

GPS to DenyD...

GPS to Cyc - Writing in 5

Hey, Calis did you Conquistador survive?

gps to BeF.

DeLeon has turned SW and hopes to meet a friend soon -

If you planning on comming down the long straights, kill some Aztecs and Zulus please. ;)

Hey, Calis did you Conquistador survive?

Actually a 2/3 Immortal had killed it. And I had to disband the worker, or he would have been recaptured now.

If you planning on comming down the long straights, kill some Aztecs and Zulus please.

Once I've met the SW nation and opened a coastal route DeLeon is going to follow the coast all the way to the SE nation (hopefully). Cortez has the job of meeting the NE nation once he completes removing the Fog of War from my home terrain. I'm going to build a couple spearman from my first barracks to allow my AC to be relieved of MP duty. Those guys will have the privledge of being the first Dutch troops to kill an AI unit.

RIP for you Conquistador Calis, we will avenge your proud warrior.

My conquistador survived barbs, they were merely misunderstood roses.

GPS

Did you put them in water? :mischief:

GPS to DenyD...

GPS to Cyc

Writing in 3 and a welcome Beorn's Conquistador to the land of wooden shoes & tulips on dykes :D

gps to BeF.

GPS to Calis

GPS to DenyD...

GPS to Cyc

Writing in 2

Zulu have started the Pyramids

gps tp BeF.

denyd, we have made contact on the Northern shore of my area. I have given you Iron Working. Forgot to give it to everyone else.

Please turn around and go back the way you came or DeLeon will perish. You probably brought the AI with you unknowingly. Go back the way you came.

I was hoping to find a path to one of your cities so that we could trade luxuries, but I will leave at your request. I'll let you know if I pass any AI units on the way back up the land bridge.

Thank you sir. Your cooperation is appreciated. I will follow you up, in case they are coming down.

Beding bing bing and GPS Calis

GPS to DenyD...

GPS to Cyc

Iron Working forwarded to Celts & Iroquois from Persia

Writing due next turn - DeLeon heading out of Persian lands

gps to BeF.

You lied of course, denyd. You went SE instead of NE. Last chance. Exit now or die. I have you covered 3 ways.

GPS to Calis

GPS to DenyD...

Polytheism in 14, according to current status of course...

Writing to all

I hope Cyc approves of DeLeon's new location

Mathematics due in 11 (about)

GPS to Cyc

Much better denyd. DeLeon lives.

gps to BeF.

GPS to Calis

GPS to DenyD...

GPS to Cyc

Nothing much to report - Conquistadors heading to the bad lands and researching Mathematics (due in 10)

gps to BeF.

Calis, did you get this save from BeF? He says he sent it out yesterday.

Just checking.

Calis, did you get this save from BeF? He says he sent it out yesterday.

Just checking.

I got all three saves from him yesterday. Will play soon...

A conquistador pillaged an improvement near an Aztec city and ran to safety (at least I hope so...)

Polytheism in 10 turns...

GPS to DenyD...

GPS to Cyc

DeLeon just passed a pair of Aztec Hoplites heading SE towards you Cyc

Thank you, denyd.

gps to BeF.

Again, I sent this save to BeF on the 29th of last month. Do we need to find a replacement here?

Not really, it's been busy here, sorry for the delay.

GPS to DenyD...

GPS to Cyc

Also hoping that the Iroquois Conquistador is planning on leaving peacefully (very soon)

gps to BeF.

GPS to Calis

GPS to DenyD...

GPS to Cyc

Just spotted 2 Aztec Chasqui & 2 Jags with 1 Conquistador while the other passed an Aztec Hoplite & Settler to find an Aztec town with a Aztec Hoplite guarding it and 3 Aztec Workers busy roading. If they are still there next turn, I'll snag them else I'm might just take on that Hoplite.

BTW: Math in 5 (maybe 4)

gps to BeF.

Ok, somebody wake up the Bear :sleep:

GPS to Calis.

GPS to DenyD...

GPS to Cyc

Math in 4 turns

Spotted an Aztez SOD with 4 Immortals & 4 Hoplites possibly heading my way
De Leon may be in trouble as he might have found a dead end passage while being followed by 2 Hoplites

gps to BeF. It's your day to watch the bear, denyd. :)

GPS to Calis

GPS to DenyD...

Polytheism in 5...

GPS to Cyc

DeLeon is still alive

gps to BeF.

Hi, guys. I remember seeing this one on DD PBEM list and it looked fun. I don't want to play (for now) but I would love to take a replacement if needed. Please tell me how this one goes. By that i mean could DD just send me a PM now and then and tell me how things are going.

So far everyone is scouting and setting up a nation in their own little corner. No one's really ready yet to take on either of the AI yet. Their 18 Hoplites & 12 Immortals each have us all a bit hesitant to strike.

Once we starting adding offensive units, there will probably be a coordinated effort to strike them both at the same time from different directions.

:bump: This is probably :eek: since I've already got 4 turns to play tonight, but it looks like it's time to :spank: the bear again.

Hey Beorn, have you headed for hibernation yet?

It's just pleasantly cold, not cold enough for hibernation yet. GPS'd

GPS to DenyD...

GPS to Cyc

Mathematics due in 2

gps to denyd by mistake. Will resend to Bear, who has made peace with both the Zulu and the Aztecs. What's the deal here? :rolleyes:

EDIT: Resent to BeF.

I'm still at war with them. In fact DeLeon barely escaped their trap and am heading NE

Yeah, I'm fully aware who is still at war, denyd. So they agreement's gone. We can make peace? Fine, nice of you all to let me know.

From page 1 of the thread (1st post)
Special rules: Only victory conditions are conquest or domination
All players can build AC (Mathematics) & Crusaders (Theology)
AI in a locked alliance – Humans vs. AI is Always War
AI can build Immortals, Hoplites, S-Mercs & Sipahi
AI GA when Immortals, Hoplites, S-Mercs or Sipahi first win
AI start with Warrior Code & Pottery
Zulu are now AGR & MIL

I apologize for the peace treaty, I wasn't aware of agreements to remain at war. If it was agreed upon I'd be glad to endure play along, I just wasn't aware.

Can we get a ruling for what's to happen to me now?

I apologize for the peace treaty, I wasn't aware of agreements to remain at war. If it was agreed upon I'd be glad to endure play along, I just wasn't aware.

Can we get a ruling for what's to happen to me now?

Just declare again and we can go on...

My thought about it...

I agree with Calis - Just declare again on both and we'll move forward

BTW: Beorn, just to let you know, there's an agreed upon tech plan back in post # 8

Oooooooooh, I missed the concept of the game completely, sorry guys, sending HBR and prepping for the zulu onslaught.

Not knowing what I was doing, I started on MM so since I didn't have maths I couldn't do construction anyways, it shouldn't be a loss.

GPS to DenyD...

Polytheism due in 3 turns...

I think someone starts on Philosophy soon...

MM ETA 4, and tough times ahead, so you're probably better suited for Philo. Anyone else?

Just re-declare war against the AI BeF. That will work.

GPS to Cyc

Mathematics due in 1 & Thanks for Horseback Riding

Cortez has notched my first kill of an Aztec Immortal

So who's going to research Philosophy?

That would be Persia (Cyc)

That would be Persia (Cyc)

I know that this was the original plan. When could you start with it Cyc?

I don't even remember what I'm researching now. This game takes way too long. I'll let you know. :dunno:

I never received the last save you sent me, denyd. I got the one on the 27th, and sent it back to you before resending to BeF. But you claim to have sent me another on 11/01. I never got it.

I will send again when I get home tonight

I still haven't received the save.

File sent again

gps to SW.

3 turns to MM.
killed a zulu, lost 2 hp on a pony.
5 turns or so from hooking up my trusty pony express!

gps calis

You're doing Mathmatics also, Soul Wrrior? I was supposed to get that tech from denyd last save, but only got Horseback Riding. I'm doing Philo now.

And what did BeF give for peace? Writing to the Aztecs?

i am 3 turns from Map Making.

i dont know what BeF gave for peace.

I'll send Mathematics to anyone who hasn't got it yet this turn.

GPS to DenyD...

GPS to Cyc

Mathematics sent to all - Currency due in about 25 turns depending on happiness

gps to Soul Warrior.

Oops! I'm not doing Philo. Sorry. This game kinda went by the wayside and I lost track.

One thing I have noticed is that both AI tribes are not researching very much. I think the only reson the Azteca have Writing is BeF probably forked it over for peace. Maybe we shoul stop combined research. Besides, this game is not at the level it's supposed to be, is it?

I think eventually everybody is going for himself. But through the AA we should go together...

Or was the plan only to beat the AI?

i think its jsut "lets beat the AI now, sort everything else later" thing.

spotted a few yellow menaces approaching.
luckily i have time to heal.

gps calis

GPS to DenyD...

Polytheism will be done next turn. I think I will start on Philosophy next, which I will do in 5 turns.

I take it that Monarchy is the free tech we long for, right?

I think eventually everybody is going for himself. But through the AA we should go together...

Or was the plan only to beat the AI?

Well, for the reasons listed below (posts by denyd) I don't think it's needed any more.

1. Number of human players: 4
Number of AI: 2
Level: SID

I believe the game is at Regent level. :rolleyes:

2. Just curious, but since we all have met already, is anyone interested in combined research to get us ahead of the AI?

We are already ahead of the AI and alwys have been.

Without any luxuries and no MP a size 2 city would riot, so it's above Monarch. I don't really have any other method of confirming that it's SID.

GPS to Cyc

I'd like to continue the tech deal until the AA ends, since we all agreed on the original tech plan. At that time, we can renegotiate a new deal either a 2,3 or 4 tribe deal. I've seen a stack of 5 Aztec units (C-Scouts & Immortals) coming my way, so the rest of you will probably have company soon.

gps to Soul Warrior.

my ponies report incoming bogies.
2 zulu immortals.
luckily its about 10 tiles away, and i peeked over the hills just in time.
will have iron or ponies hooked up so i can reinforce, in force.

gps calis

I have the turn, but didn't get an answer on Monarchy or Republic ??

I strongly propose Monarchy, due to our always war situation with the AIs

im all for monarchy. :king:

I agree, Monarchy...crowns for all :D

Yeah, whatever.

Many gods for everybody...I give a round of Polytheism...

Started on Philosophy...

Ah, and the game is actually at Regent lvl...

GPS to Cyc

I'm pretty sure that this game is above Monarch

Next time you found a city not connected to you road network (ie no luxuries) watch what happens when it reaches size 2 (you'll have an unhappy citizen). Emperor and above start with only a single content citizen.

But why does the game say Regent, when I load the file?

It is a Regent game. If the some of characteristics are different, it is because the bic rules were altered.

If you guys look closer at the game, you will see that denyd's tribe is in it's worst government. The sooner he gets to Monarch, his favorite government, he has no real need for combined research (other than buddying up). With combined research in a Regent game designed to base attention on the AI during the AA while he grows his Coastal based tribe to his favorite government, thanks to you, he can out-research the the Scientific and Industrious tribes. ;) Notice he eliminated the Scientific Leaders in this game.

gps to Soul Warrior.

nice analysis cyc

Maps are going around.
0 sci for a turn.

gps calis

Just to clarify a bit on Cyc's work:

SGL's are out because whenever I get one, I feel guilty about it (see DD14) and when it comes really early, it gives someone an edge (see DD14)

As to having the edge once we reach the Middle Ages, I think Persia is the one with the edge as the only SCI tribe, they will start with a 1 tech lead on everyone else. Also even though I'll get extra commerce from the SEA trait, the extra movement and cheaper harbors are pretty useless as the map is a Pangaea. Also I'm the only one in the game with a defensive UU, which will make it much tougher to trigger my GA or to have a potent attacking force without bringing out a lot of artillery. As I sized up this game I actually had myself tied for 3rd place behind the Iroquois (fast growth, lower corruption & great UU) and the Persians (cheap libraries = faster research, the bonus tech and a great UU). Both the Celts and I are pretty equal with my extra commerce cancelling out their excellent UU. We both are a bit handicapped in research compared to the other pair.

I still don't buy that this is a Regent game. Next time I get the save I'll post a pair of screenshots. I have a size 2 city that's not connected to any luxuries. There is an AC serving as MP. I'll post a shot of the city with and without the MP. Without you'll see 1 content & 1 unhappy, while with the MP there will be 2 content. That hopefully show that this is at least Emperor.

I'd think that only Persia wouldn't be unable to keep up with the 3 AGR tribes in growth since everyone started on a river with a pair of cows. Assuming a granary that means everyone has a 4 turn settler factory once their land is improved, but their faster workers allow them to improve their land faster.

GPS to DenyD...

GPS to Cyc

My apologies in that this is not a SID game (you are right Cyc), though I'm afraid I can't even be sure it's as high as a Regent game. I've checked the game create screen and the level is not set there for a scenario game, so it must come from the BIQ file and that says this is a currently set to Chieftain. I was pretty sure that it was originally set to SID, but I noticed that whenever I reset the rules, the level reset to Chieftain, so it's possible that I never reset it after the final rule edit.

I have a proposal to allow this game to continue. We will complete the original tech deal and then this will become an everyone at war with everyone else including the AI. This will give the Persians a bit of a head start, but having cheap MDI will help offset it.

The other option is for everyone to go to war now with everyone else, but that might create a major imbalance in techs contributed to the rest.

my vote goes for the end of teh AA.

Well, with a headstart to Philosophy I should vote direct war, but I second the "together through the ancient age" option. :D

Ok, I can't go against the majority. End of AA for everyone, then war with everyone including the AI.

Default is Regent, denyd. If you don't change it, that's what you get. ;)

gps to Soul Warrior.

GPS to DenyD...

GPS to Cyc

gps to Soul Warrior.

where has the zulu nation gone to?

gps calis

They were still on my diplo screen. Didn't check the map? Guess I'm not sure what you mean. Did they retreat?

retreated? more like i havent seen any for about 5 turns.
upto something evil they are , says i !
well, i knew i was right!

5 hoplites and 5 immortals of the zulu nation are VERY close.
fighting retreat is the word of the hour!

GPS

GPS to DenyD...

retreated? more like i havent seen any for about 5 turns.
upto something evil they are , says i !
They probably went over to denyd's to party.

I just spotted a Zulu city found near the path to my nation, but only seen Aztec military so far.

GPS to Cyc

gps to Soul Warrior.

retreated? more like i havent seen any for about 5 turns.
upto something evil they are , says i !
well, i knew i was right!

5 hoplites and 5 immortals of the zulu nation are VERY close.
fighting retreat is the word of the hour!

GPS

GPS to DenyD...

Philosophy and with it Monarchy are due next turn...it's great to be King :)

GPS to Cyc

gps to SW.

GPS to DenyD...

Phil & Monarchy to everybody...

The Celts are revolting already...

GPS to Cyc

no comment on the Celts being revolting... :beer: