I am going to throw some ideas for the next versions of RAND:

>When you spawn, the area around you should be revealed ( maybe 20x20 tiles from your capital ) so you don't feel so "lost".

>Diferrent UHV for different leader! We can choose the leader but it doesn't have any effect in the game, maybe they could chance your UHV? Example:

For England
Elizabeth: -Have 2 Great Artists in your capital - Conquer Spain and France - Don't have sex? or Circunavigate the world :)
Victoria: the same of the normal game plus Conquer India and Khmer.
Churchill: Never lose a single city, have 3 Defensive Pacts ( or 5 ) and Conquer Germany and Russia(?).

>Resource rich areas. I think that in the normal RFC the power of the European Civilizations, China, Japan and USA lie in their terrain: resource rich and all grassland, the random map should try to get something like that in some areas...

UHV change for Arabia:

Not vassalize Spain, Rome etc. but just three other civilizations.

I second the first one definitely.

I'll also like to see, if possible: more peninsulas (ie. as it is I think the coast of continents is too regular), less mountains but more dense ranges where they do occur and more resource-rich terrain like you say.

UHV change for Arabia:

Not vassalize Spain, Rome etc. but just three other civilizations.

it's already like this actually.

I noticed there are many RRAs (ressource rich areas) in the north (= Europe), but few in the south (= middle east, India, etc.). In normal RFC thats different. Please change it in RAND.

Now there seem to be more many more hill areas which is nice, but unfortunately you cant use them until feudalism (windmills). Is there a possibility to irrigate plains with an earlier tech (with river nearby, possibly construction)? That would resemble the situation in China, northern India, and the Andes.

Oh, sorry if its like that already I apologize but then its not changed in the start, when you choose civs.

More peninsulas definitely and it would be nice to have the Mediterranean civs (Rome, Greece, Carthage etc) have an area that actually looks something like the Mediterranean with small island chains nearby and peninsulas, at least for the high earth likeness games.

my suggestion (already posted in the other thread) is make all resources (or at least all food resources) under Jungles improvable, not just plantations.

I like the idea about civ capital (or first settler) spawn having resources within X distance to repair some of the 5 gold or 3 corn + 3 elephant + horse starts.

I also think that when you place your capital, all jungle tiles one space away from the city (in culture borders) should be deleted. This is also done in "Total Realism" mod to help people crippled in all jungle/forest areas.

Show stability bonus borders - Or something to know that your second or third city is not in a flip-zone. this is annoying when it is 3 squares away from my capital, i assumed 3 spaces in all directions was "safe" but i guess i have a few more adjustments to make in this area.

COMPLIMENT - I like how you improved the financial adviser screen. knowing how many "points" i have in each area really helps me, and i would like to see this screen for regular RFC as well. i played one normal RFC after using this, and felt naked.

I would also like to know how many "stability points" each res[ective city has, and possibly for each civ, list it's stability modifiers. For example, if i am using Theocracy and Vassalage, i would like to click around on different ones to know what it will do for my stability before choosing. (unless there already is and i dont know about it?)

Marshes, many many more marshes. They are awesome seperation mechanisms that keep a natural balance.

Lastly, it would be nice if there were some, if any solution to the "useless quest" problem, like telling khmer to settle 26 cities on different landmasses, telling babylon to build 35 triremes or giving a quest that expires in 5-`0 turns of research.

Good job Rhye! This is a pretty nice mod.

It would be nice if you could switch civs more than once in the game. It's kind of frustrating (esp on a slow machine) to wait for 150 turns of autoplay just to see you have a crappy starting position.
There could still be some minimum span between two switches (like I think is already there), so you can't start as Spain and then switch to France.

It would be nice if more resources were limited to continents. On high Earth likeness my English civ still had corn, cotton and elephants whilst the Aztecs had pigs, wine and sheep.


>Diferrent UHV for different leader! We can choose the leader but it doesn't have any effect in the game, maybe they could chance your UHV? Example:

For England
Elizabeth: -Have 2 Great Artists in your capital - Conquer Spain and France - Don't have sex? or Circunavigate the world
Victoria: the same of the normal game plus Conquer India and Khmer.
Churchill: Never lose a single city, have 3 Defensive Pacts ( or 5 ) and Conquer Germany and Russia(?).


This would be great but it would require a lot of work and testing to implement - and leaders already change with time. I really like the idea though.


>When you spawn, the area around you should be revealed ( maybe 20x20 tiles from your capital ) so you don't feel so "lost".

That could be a useful reference for those "20 tiles" UHVs.


I also think that when you place your capital, all jungle tiles one space away from the city (in culture borders) should be deleted. This is also done in "Total Realism" mod to help people crippled in all jungle/forest areas.


India needs this!!

Not to try and discount all the hardwork Rhye has done on the map script, but after playing the PerfectWorld script, everything else seems boring. The PerfectWorld script will generate very beleiveable maps, first generating a heightmap, then applying plate tectonics, then using the results to generate temperature/rainfall maps, and finally converting it all to tiles. The result is realism that most other map scripts don't reach. I think it would be awesome if Rhye could incorporate it somehow, although he'd need to do some work to make it more Rhye-like. It's also a great script because resources really tend to cluster.

Not sure if this would make much sense, but there could also be 2 more categories of cities(for naming purposes): inland, next to a river, and coastal, next to a river.

I also like the idea where tiles around your capitol would be revealed when you spawn. I think it would make sense for the area that is revealed to start off small for early civs and gradually increase for the later civs. America could also get a map showing most of the explored world (especially the old world).

China/India seem too far away from each other while China/Russia (and China/Persia)way too close. Also Carthage tends to show up in weird spots, often next to India.

Show stability bonus borders - Or something to know that your second or third city is not in a flip-zone. this is annoying when it is 3 squares away from my capital, i assumed 3 spaces in all directions was "safe" but i guess i have a few more adjustments to make in this area.


I too would like the player to see some kind of hint about which tiles:
A. might flip later
B. might decrease your stability due to location

I thought that in regular RFC, the AI gets hints about B and in some cases A from the settler map. If it works the same way in RFC Rand, maybe the player's settler map value for a tile could be shown in the list of information you see when you mouse over a tile.

Or if that is too much information, just show high/medium/low or high/low.

Or allow Scout and Explorer units to show the settler value for the tile they are on.

Or something like that.

Of course, the user interface could show regions graphically rather than as a number for each tile. For example, when a Settler is selected, flip/stability regions could be shown as an extension of the display of city fat crosses that is already implemented.

as you can read here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=284241 the spot where a civ will spawn is chosen when they spawn, so you can't know which cities would flip later. Though, as you can read in the preview #4, a city will flip only if it's closer to the spawning civ's capital than to yours. I think it makes sense... as for your second question, in the pdf readme I seem to understand that you should expand "historically" and you should be safe, IE found coastal cities as Carthage, and don't found cities near the equator as the Vikings...

that gives a few extreme examples, but should my babylon just not try to settle north, are they meant to go south? I ask because my second city, which built my wonders and was my GP farm (i thought your core cities wouldn't flip) was built 3 tiles north of the capital - the minimum distance allowed. it flips. that really cost me the game, so i started my said ICS and culturally eliminated Mongol before they finally killed me. only took them 60 turns of war to realize i had 0 troops and 50 cities. I was also worried in my Khmer start, i had a nice private area, isloated by jungle - but india NEVER spawned. I was afraid to expand in fear i would collapse to india - and in another game i am in 1900 and america never spawned. If they did, they were mulled by barbs on their spawn turn and i missed it or something.

As I understand it, Rhye changed the minimum distance from 3 spaces between cities to 2. Babylon is a very challenging civ to play as they are historically tiny, not supposed to get that big land-wise so as soon as you start to build cities even moderately far from the capital you lose expansion points.

In my game, I built 4 cities separated by 2-3 spaces from another and I was on Shaky/Unstable for a long time so I had to halt expanding and just focus on making making my people happy, healthy and improving the economy. After calendar and currency I was brought back to stable so I will expand again though I'm sure it will bring me back to shaky/Unstable

Playing a 3000 BC civ that's not meant to survive ain't easy.

maybe it would be better if when a civ spawned, it checked the cities to determine HOW close it is to your capital as well. I checked my save, and my flipped babylonian city was 3 spaces from my capital, 5 spaces from the mongol capital.

I believe cities built in your capitals "third growth" range should be safe (3 spots from capital). of course that would create a metagame around it, but hey.

its a little easier now that you can see the "points" per each area instead of just a symbol.

The other thing about Babylon in particular is that in regular RAF you didn't feel as great a need to expand far from Babylon as there were many good cities close by: Shush, Hattusas, Nineveh, perhaps Jerusalem for the Holy City....but in RAND the trend is, as has been pointed out by many here, that resources are kept much further apart from one another than in RAF so building cities close to your capital as I would think you're 'supposed' to do as Babylon proves difficult. If I did that, I would have a bunch of 1-2 size cities with very little production. And even with separation, the biggest city I have is size 8 at 1290AD.

Seafood needs to be concentrated around spawn sites (I had a Japanese start where the only fish was 10 tiles away in Chinese hands).

I've seen sheep on mountains (somewhat appropriate but can't be pastured).

Seafood needs to be concentrated around spawn sites (I had a Japanese start where the only fish was 10 tiles away in Chinese hands).

I've seen sheep on mountains (somewhat appropriate but can't be pastured).

It's the same as the Cows, Corn and Wheat on Mountains that appear near European civs; England and Japan seem to get Sheep around their spawn sites. That makes sense for England, but it's a bit baffling for Japan.

I just started a new game as China; this time Rome spawned in "America". Also, despite beelining to Mathematics and then Calendar, on Viceroy, Egypt beat me to both Confucianism and Taoism. (I WBed them to myself.) The Egyptian AI really, really needs to be stopped from gunning for the religious techs. They didn't found Judaism this time, though; it was founded by Persia on spawn. (Persia starts with Monotheism, I think.)

Actually, it might be a good idea to really deemphasize Monotheism for Egypt, then change Judaism to Zoroastrianism. At least then you'd have the religion be founded by its historical founder (Judaism not having a civ or even an independent city now).

Good points Verily, though I was able to get Confucionism with China on monarch in my only game as them...whether or not this was an abberation only time will tell. I was two turns away from Taoism when it was founded but I didn't beeline so maybe I could have done that too.

I along with others have asked for Zoroastrianism and now that there is no independent city I don't see any reason why this couldn't be done.

Can we do something to stop india, babylon, egypt and rome from nailing all the tribal villages?

i played as japan, opened worldbuilder and noticed that every single tribal village was gone except for the "new world" ones and a few on isolated islands. it was odd being discovered by egypt the turn i spawned, but even more odd that i just knew - checked and confirmed.

Perhaps as oceans seperate the "new world" a system of mountains and marshes can be used to seperate asian ones.

also, i like the religions as they are. I agree with zoroastrianism. I also agree with Paganism being a RELIGION and not a civic (to classify shamanistic, and other pre-christan earth worshiping tribal civ's). Don't even flame me, because i wont respond i dont care enough to debate weather it should be a religion or a civic. I also think more than 7 religions would not be a good thing, and the mods i played that have 10+ religions it gets ridiculous when every nation founds its own religion.

But to flamers in advance, i would be happy replacing christanity with zoroastranism or anything for that matter.

Independent / barbarians still confuse me so i can't comment on them until i see more of them. I think when a civ spawns, it should DELETE all barbarian/independent units in its squares to prevent spawnkills.

I agree with the concept, the idea of what your saying but Paganism is not the correct word to use. Not here to "flame" or whatever, but I think, especially with Rhye's mod as it much more than the vanilla tries to be historically accurate and respectful of global cultures via authentic city names and so forth, that a less pejorative word should be used such as "Animism" "Shanism" or perhaps "Classical Polytheism".

as for your second question

They were suggestions, not questions.

the spot where a civ will spawn is chosen when they spawn

I am making design suggestions. I am sure they could be programmed.

you should expand "historically" and you should be safe, IE found coastal cities as Carthage, and don't found cities near the equator as the Vikings...

Too vague. And possibly less information than the AIs get.

maybe it would be better if when a civ spawned, it checked the cities to determine HOW close it is to your capital as well. I checked my save, and my flipped babylonian city was 3 spaces from my capital, 5 spaces from the mongol capital.

I believe cities built in your capitals "third growth" range should be safe (3 spots from capital). of course that would create a metagame around it, but hey.

I'd report this as a bug -if you're sure- since it contradicts what Rhye said on how it should work.

Good points Verily, though I was able to get Confucionism with China on monarch in my only game as them...whether or not this was an abberation only time will tell. I was two turns away from Taoism when it was founded but I didn't beeline so maybe I could have done that too.

I along with others have asked for Zoroastrianism and now that there is no independent city I don't see any reason why this couldn't be done.

It seems to be somewhat inconsistent in terms of which religions Egypt beelines. If they go for Judaism, you're probably safe as China in getting Confucianism and Taoism, but Egypt beelines Confucianism about half the time. The Egyptian AI didn't even really have a particularly good start location in the game, so I'm not sure what caused it to be such a tech monster. (Egypt led the tech race right up until I won the UHV in 1600.)

This is probably all carried over from BtS, where the Ramesses AI, along with Isabella and a few others, is obsessed with founding religions. Since Egypt didn't found any of the religions in the game, and RAND continues to emphasize Christianity for Rome/Greece, Confucianism and Taoism for China, Islam founded on spawn for Arabia, etc., this should really be stopped.

I think that there should be more seafood on the map. On a Japan start, I got 2 work boats, but nothing to fish within 3 turns of moves!

I think that there should be more seafood on the map. On a Japan start, I got 2 work boats, but nothing to fish within 3 turns of moves!

seconded, the same with happened in the few carthaginian games I tried...

Also, there a whole lot less rivers than in the real earth map. More rivers!
Short rivers, curvy rivers, long rivers!

Hi all,

I just tested a couple of games, a screenshot of one of them attached. Two problems arose:

1) When new civs spawn, they almost always take one of your cities, even if you have only two! This way, playing on doesnt make any fun

2) Other early civs build their second and third city very close to the capital, mostly within 2 spaces away. That way, neither their cities can flourish nor the map is accurately settled. I suppose, it was made this way for RFC because of the lack of space. Now with RFCRand it seems outdated ...

My suggestions:

ad 1) If a new civ spawns it only takes a former civs city, if that civ has more than 3

ad 2) The rule that cities can be build within 2 spaces of the capital should be dropped.

I've tried several Dutch starts, and inevitably I get either a cow or wheat on a mountain. Aren't the Dutch supposed to start in lowland? And where did all the rivers go? (dikes are going to be less useful)

Also, Germany is usually nowhere to be found close by, and in one start I was separated on an island from all other civs, so no religion at all. And France isn't so nice to me as usual...

Religion fix: Enable "Choose religions" so they wind up with a "preferred religion".

I also thought about the mountain resources - we all know that Inca can work mountains (still can, right?) Was this put in for their benefit?

I have found through many tests that India seems to be placed in Africa more often than not, Persia is often put in a position to the EAST of China and the Khmer usually have no developable land to grow into.

I Have also seen the English, Portugese and Sutch put on Mid Atlantic Islands. I have found northern Europe to be too filled with tundra and ice, often confining the Vikings to a harsh world with no expansion posibility.

Many times I ahve also seen an empty Africa that is HUGE, while Europe is small and filled with desert.

ad 2) The rule that cities can be build within 2 spaces of the capital should be dropped.

Well, it is by pacing your cities 2 spaces apart that saves your rear end on stability. the problem in RAND like you- is that my important city always flips even if the capital is 8 spaces away from the city, which is 2 spots away from your own capital. This has also caused another thing i noticed.

Anyone notice all the bare map? It seems like a very good portion of the map is always unsettled, and unused.

I also hate it when a civ puts a city near my capital, and destroyes my productivity and culture, by building my cultural borders inward. I have done it with Babylon in a sarcastic ICS (inf city sprawl) and the borders of moskva barely got to work any tiles because of my irrelevant cities placed right next to their most important ones.


One idea i had was to try to follow the guide a little more literal. for example, in RFC, Khmer boundries are 3 spots above where the settler appears - 6 spaces west (to the city of Pagan) and south about 8 spaces. So i played Khmer and tried to set up my city building the same. 2 spaces west of capital - 4 spaces south, 2 spaces north, and still lost cities to civ's that not only spawned nowhere near the city in question -


but expanded IN THE OPPOSITE direction of the city they flipped.

This is pretty minor, but, for the purposes of city naming, even freshwater lakes are considered coastal cities. So, for example, Spain starting next to a one-tile lake will have Barcelona rather than Madrid as its capital. This is, I think, inappropriate; lake cities should be named from the inland lists.

i never noticed this, maybe it just sees the water tile and names it as coastal?

This is pretty minor, but, for the purposes of city naming, even freshwater lakes are considered coastal cities. So, for example, Spain starting next to a one-tile lake will have Barcelona rather than Madrid as its capital. This is, I think, inappropriate; lake cities should be named from the inland lists.

Yeah, good point. I think in our list of city names we placed cities next to fresh water lakes (like Chicago) in the continental list.

Hey thadian,

if only settlers would be easier to build. But as it is now as a 3000 BC civ, you barely manage to build a second city when that city flips ....

oh yes, and it will be your most important city that flips, even if it is 2 spots from your capital - ever since my FAIL screenshots i have encountered this a few more times but did not post it, as it is already known.

To fix this, i am now leaving one borderguard to fogbust, and my entire army in my capital - i learned troops not in the area of the flipped city have a smaller chance to flip. i also learned you can empty the city the turn before they spawn - let it flip, then DOW and conquer it back without losing troops. i feel like a cheater who cheats because he was cheated.

I also thought about just pretending im playing OCC until my neighbors spawn and i know i am safe.