While we are playing RAND, let's take a look at the UHVs. Many of them changed to be less map specific in a random game. Which ones work? Which need a little tweaking.

In my first extensive game as France, I have had a nice time expanding my empire to the new world. Of course one new challenge is not knowing WHERE America will spawn. Needing to build 7 cities in the new world means one of 2 things. Either spreading my cities all over the place, or building them AFTER America spawns.

Of course the 7 cities needed are more than we needed on the earth map, so perhaps it should be downscaled to 5 or 6 (not a huge difference, but helps stability)

Same problem with the Russians: how do you found inland cities 20 blocks from your capital when you have Mongolians, Chinese, all the Europeans 20 blocks from you? Unless you found new cities in Africa and the New World, but how to do it without any access to water? If only the 2 away rule for founding cities is eliminated...

I think the Egyptian UHV is impossible currently (no stone means no Pyramids/Stonehenge and 500 culture is impossible). (HR and slavery should be automatically enabled and they are not currently, missing one more move)

Mali definitely needs an overhaul (it's currently overwhelmed by barbs and impi)...it needs to spawn near water (2/3 times I tried no water at all, and cities razed by barbs and impi).

The number of resources needed to win (e.g. for Netherlands and Carthage) should be based on the size of the map (impossible to find 7 spices in a "normal" map).

I tried China twice, I was doing well with the 2 pagodas/2 academies thing, but then 2-3 of my cities always flipped to Germany or Russia. It's hard enough to even found 8 cities...

AP, another issue with building cities XXX tiles away is that when playing on a smaller earth.... less room.

AP, another issue with building cities XXX tiles away is that when playing on a smaller earth.... less room.

On the other hand, smaller earth means easier UHV for Aztecs and Incans (smaller amount of space for Europeans to build cities and for you to cover before they show up).

Izzy won a historical victory 4 turns after i spawned as america.

I successfully did an English UHV on my first RAND game. I think that one works fine.

I came very close to a China UHV win a little bit ago, but lost due to a late plague.

I spawned an Arabia game and already had the first goal completed somehow. I've heard reports of this with similar goals (Like the Mongols), so I kind of think this style of goal is bugged.

I had an American spawn where the statue of liberty was built by France shortly after starting, but that's nothing new. The reduction in the America, Aztec and Incan to only require no cities within a radius of the capitol struck me as a lot easier than RFC, but it may be more difficult on smaller worlds.

I also had a failed Babylon game; Delhi had more culture because I didn't have marble or stone.

The reduction in the America, Aztec and Incan to only require no cities within a radius of the capitol struck me as a lot easier than RFC, but it may be more difficult on smaller worlds.

That means it is easier for the AI too though remember.

I had a go at an Arabian game earlier today. The good news: I was able to quickly conquer Rome and spread my empire to better plots than the virtual desert where I spawned. Overall I think that aspect made it easier than in RFC. However stability was a big problem. I probably needed to build more Courthouses or something, but to achieve the 3 religious shrines UHV I had to conqueror basically two distinct civilizations and the lost stability from that caused me to collapse. I went back and gave myself a golden age but even in the golden age I still had a city go independent on me. :(

Maybe I just suck at managing stability, but has anyone else noticed a higher difficulty in keeping things in check?

Maybe I just suck at managing stability, but has anyone else noticed a higher difficulty in keeping things in check?

I'm going to guess that because you relocated away from your spawn area with Arabia that you got stability penalties for occupying too many tiles that were not in your civ's "core area". This may be why your Arabia game was more unstable that you would have been used to in regular RFC.

I'd suggest to replace Russian "Siberian" UHV with building a transcontinental railroad (connecting western and eastern, or northern and southern shores of your continent). It's historically accurate and would be fun to achieve.

'lo folks. Long time since I posted on a Rhyes forum but when this was released I just had to come back.

I *think* in standard Rhyes and Fall the Maya had 2 settlers. They only start with 1 on RAND and it means that so far I have been unable to get Cal before 700AD. Im not sure if thats the sole reason I havent been able to hit the first UHV but with 2 starting settlers I certainly would be able to.

India I have done too and it depends entirely on your start. Took me awhile to get a decent start that allowed me to do it.

Greece I have almost done but everytime I get within a turn or 2 of my caravels meeting the game crashes. I havent attached a save as im not sure if its a bug, my puter or just plain bad luck (just about every 3rd game i try crashes at some point although I can revert by using auto saves).

Khmer. Ouch. Not fun trying to spread their religon around, especially when you spawn surrounded by an Islamic China and Arabia! Mind you I have only tried Khmer a couple of times spent most of my time on Maya and India so far.

I tried 2 civs so far: Carthage and Egypt.

Carthage is very smooth... easy on expansion and the UHV is very doable. You may need to reroll a very bad start but that's about it.
Egypt is pretty much impossible to win as a UHV but it's also just frustrating to play in general. Since it's born in the desert, there aren't enough food resources around. Food resource also would help with health to fight the unhealthy flood plains. You may have stone with your second city, but that means loosing a lot of turns, too many for the first goal.

Greece & Carthage frequently spawn on the shore of an "interior" mediterranean, with no access to the real oceans. That would make it kind of hard to circumnavigate...

attempting to play america, while i had about 20 turns left before i go - izzy won a historical victory.

It is looking like Spain's UHV is a little easy to accomplish, as the AI keeps doing it.

Greece & Carthage frequently spawn on the shore of an "interior" mediterranean, with no access to the real oceans. That would make it kind of hard to circumnavigate...

often ? I started 4 carthage games and always had access to oceans. Might happen with high likeliness though, I played on medium, what about you ?

often ? I started 4 carthage games and always had access to oceans. Might happen with high likeliness though, I played on medium, what about you ?

no I had it as well, with carthage you sometimes spawn in an inland lake (sort of caspian sea). I took a picture of my first start (where I only had ~7 tiles of sea... - didn't count them)

It was high likeness.
But there was almost always only one or two plots of land between the "mediterranean" and the ocean, so maybe they could have built a channel.

Something that just occurred to me when playing the English...
Since there are now several UHVs that involve some distance from your capital, wouldn't it just do to move your capital instead? With the English, found 15 european cities, then build a palace in america or something. And after the goal is fulfilled move it back to London. Would bring some stability issues, but possibly in your golden age.

Something that just occurred to me when playing the English...
Since there are now several UHVs that involve some distance from your capital, wouldn't it just do to move your capital instead? With the English, found 15 european cities, then build a palace in america or something. And after the goal is fulfilled move it back to London. Would bring some stability issues, but possibly in your golden age. Well, it might work, but I don't think that having 15 worthless cities in Europe is in any sense better or easier than having 15 cities in best places of your choice. And you even won't be able to give independence to most useless of them after getting UHV.

Something that just occurred to me when playing the English...
Since there are now several UHVs that involve some distance from your capital, wouldn't it just do to move your capital instead? With the English, found 15 european cities, then build a palace in america or something. And after the goal is fulfilled move it back to London. Would bring some stability issues, but possibly in your golden age.

It bears testing. It could be calculated in one of three ways:

20 squares from your spawn point
20 squares from your first city (and default capitol)
20 squares from your current capitol.

Test out moving the capitol and let us know.

Need more food and space for the Chinese. They either can't get decent city size or get someone spawn on top of them.

France and Arab seems doable in my tries. I think all the ancient civs need some bonuses, otherwise there is little hope that they can survive.

I've done fine as the Chinese so far, but then again the Mongols haven't spawned yet.

But yes, collapse is an issue. Every civ in 'Africa' collapsed (this was India, Angkor and Ethiopia so far) all thanks to loads of unnecessary barbarians.

Is there a way to determine who will and wont spawn on differing map sizes? i have some saves from late game where america never spawned. Do standard games, i assume as having less civs, is there a way to determine who will spawn, or is all of that a suprise?

Has anyone been able to get the French UHV? Even thoguh I settled 7 cities in the new world by 1760, I didn't get the 2nd requirement.

I finally got a decent Dutch start and should have won in 1605, but even though I was first to found Kaapstadt in the Australian equivalent of my world, the 3rd criteria didn't light up (it's still bright 2/3). I should have suspected something since in RFC the criteria usually lights up the moment you found that Australian outpost. Here the code in RAND:

elif (iPlayer == iNetherlands):
if (self.getGoal(iNetherlands, 1) == -1):
#RFCRAND
if (iGameTurn <= i1760AD):
pPlot = gc.getMap().plot(city.getX(), city.getY())
if (pPlot.area().getNumCities() == 0 and pPlot.area().getNumTiles() >= 25):
self.setGoal(iNetherlands, 1, 1)
else:
self.setGoal(iNetherlands, 1, 0)


Here's the corresponding code in RFC:

elif (iPlayer == iNetherlands):
if (self.getGoal(iNetherlands, 1) == -1):
if (city.getX() >= tAustraliaTL[0] and city.getX() <= tAustraliaBR[0] and city.getY() >= tAustraliaTL[1] and city.getY() <= tAustraliaBR[1]):
bFirst = True
for iCiv in range(iNumPlayers):
if ((iCiv != iNetherlands)):
if (self.checkNotOwnedArea(iCiv, tAustraliaTL, tAustraliaBR) == False):
bFirst = False
#print ("bFirst = False", iCiv)
break
if (bFirst):
self.setGoal(iNetherlands, 1, 1)
else:
self.setGoal(iNetherlands, 1, 0)

So it seems that RFC first checks if a city is in Australia, then checks who founded it, and sets the goal to be true if it was Dutch; whereas RAND checks if the city is on an empty island greater than or equal to 25 tiles, and sets the goal to yes if so. So maybe pPlot.area().getNumCities() == 1 would work? (After all, it checks the criteria after you've founded that city)
Can somebody verify this?

I'll probably just play on with a spaceship victory (my world is chock-full of large empires which are tough to conquer, and true to my name, I want a peaceful victory, Aztecs and Mayans being the exception). I'm well prepared since I'm first to constitution, and was able to build the Mausoleum, i.e. the whole 17th century and half of 18th century is going to be my golden age, somewhat historically. :lol:

Nope, tried the ==1 thing and didn't work. Maybe we need to redefine a set of Australian functions for RAND (just like there's a set of America/New World functions defined elsewhere in the python code to work out if France has 7 New World cities or if Vikings are the first to found a city in America)?

AP:

Having tried the French UHV, I was unable to get the second leg of the UHV to register despite 7 cities in the new world.

Here is the link to that message in the bugs thread:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7084686&postcount=50

Maybe you can figure out what is wrong there?

Just played a long and very relaxed Japan game. It is too easy if Japan starts on a okayish island and managed to build the great lighthouse. Run pacifism+bureaucracy, monstrous capital. Circumnavigate, conqueror's event (did not bother, give the troops to all three American civs instead, within a few turns they all vassalised). GDP easily double the nearest competitor, and I am losing interest.

It seems at least the 2nd UHV needs to be changed, since it is nearly impossible to fail this goal.I suggest changing it to found Sushi and spread it to 10 countries. Therefore instead of just turtling and counting gold coins from trade the player at least has to do something in the late game. Plus, there is no UHV related to corporations yet, and this would make the game more complete.

some UHVs are just easier than others. It's not like Japan is hard even in RFC...

I just succeeded with a French UHV victory. Granted it required me going back to 1757 and setling 2 extra settlers (9 cities total in the new world).

Turkey's first goal is pretty easy, but then it was in RFC.

"Control one other civilizations start area"

I did this when collapsed greek cities flipped to me on the third turn.

Turkey's second goal is incredibly cryptic.

"Control 3 cities in each of 4 different landmasses in 1700 AD"

I'm currently playing a Turkey game where I want to build towards a domination victory, so I haven't been worrying about the UHVs, but this goal is one I don't really follow.

In RFC you are supposed to have Greece and Mesopotamia and the black sea in 1700. Now from what I can tell you are supposed to have 3 cities in 4 different continents, but I'm not really sure here.

Do the Africa, Europe and Asia like continents in RAND count as separate land masses? Even if they do, the Turkish goal would require you to go colonize the America or Australia, since it asks for a fourth.

Something that just occurred to me when playing the English...
Since there are now several UHVs that involve some distance from your capital, wouldn't it just do to move your capital instead? With the English, found 15 european cities, then build a palace in america or something. And after the goal is fulfilled move it back to London. Would bring some stability issues, but possibly in your golden age.

You're a genius if it works. In fact, the Russian UHV is much easier this way. Also, in real life, the capital was moved to St. Petersburg (a coastal city).

However, I think the code actually tallies at the time you found your city (i.e. it calculates whether that colony was founded at the appropriate distance with respect to your current capital). So unfortunately, it doesn't work for the Europeans. But it should work for the Aztecs, Incans, Americans and Ethiopians--just move your capital to a distant continent like Asia and Australia where the chances of a European settlement is much less.

I just looked at the code for the Russian colony criteria. It seems Rhye may have made a typo, because the distance for those non-coastal cities away from the capital is only 5, not 15. (The Portuguese one, for example, does require a distance of 20).

Ethiopia, Japan and Maya are getting short changed. They start later and yet do not have the same number of settlers (2) as before. Ethiopia and Maya are currently impossible with regards to their 1st UHV criteria, because it simply takes too many beakers which one slow-growing capital cannot provide. (I had a great start as Ethiopia with stone and copper, and even built Stonehenge, but by the time barb camel archers showed up, I was still 25 moves from theology).

Ok, I am really winning my last Chinese UHV try. poped 3 techs (Writing(!), fishing and HBR, got a city with 2 golds (which solved all my early research) I worry about that city flipping to the Khmers when they are born, but it does not. The Russians did not flip my cities either. Now Persia is down on power and I am seriously going to invade him to get 3 more cities, none of which is great but reasonable enough, just after finishing the Wall.

Already have currency, monotheism, monarchy apart from all the required tech. Next one is code of laws to solve my finance. Got to watch the mercenary situation so Darius does not suddenly hire a bunch of big guys.

More coming if I actually win it.

one really strange thing happened to me. I was france and using the standard size map. Then I get a quest that tells me to build 17 libraries. That seems like an insane amount for a standard size map. I'd have to either colonize most of the new world (if not all) or conquer most of the old world. By then my stability would be shot from controlling all those core areas.

Another thing, every turn I keep getting a message from Russia demanding that I stop trading with the chinese. I always say no, and he always comes back the next turn to demand the same thing. This didn't happen on the regular rhyes and fall. Is it a glitch of some sort? because it is getting really annoying

I'm going to try the American one after I finish my English game, which is definetly doable.

Lucky start (didn't use the worldbuilder at all) since I had marble in Sparta (landlocked), copper with Athens, and founded Confucianism with a goody hut! Without that it would have been very difficult since I needed one more tech to get the Great Wall and Colosseum. Rome was hemmed in by a settled great artist in Korinthos, which flipped Arretium to me long after we declared peace. I sent my 2 initial phalanxes around the world and conquered Babylon and India (to deter them from the Oracle), and actually declared war on Egypt but they had axemen already. Great Library is a must (gives you free great scientists). Bulbed lots of techs (including philosophy and optics).

I retrieved an autosave if anybody's interested.

I just won the Persian UHV (Monarch, Large Map, Medium Likeliness), so it's not impossible, but of course I did have luck with my Immortals in China. I built every single wonder in the world, except Stonehenge which I took from Egypt :D

Ok, the Chinese UHV is doable if the player has a decent starting place with some food resources. I was lucky to have a 2 gold/2 floodplains city which hosts both religions, so that solved the research early on and finance later. I was sloppy once I hit music (in 470AD!); in retrospect I could be more focused.

Several things to note apart from the RFC guide:
1. Do not found cities too far north, especially to the northwest. Dealling with the mongols later is ok, but when the Russians spawn they may flip those cities, which is a pain when the player tries to build temples/cathedrals. Instead, expand to the South.

2. Persia is an opportunist. It will spawn close to China, instead of India. Make sure to get Bronze working and the Wheel before Calendar, and have 1-2 spearman or the ability to whip 1-2. An early DOW when China only has warriors is not fun. But their presence makes the game easier later on...

3. Trade for construction in order to build the Great Wall. It is almost a must for RFC RAND, since the barbarians are a lot less predictable. Even if that means sacrificing music. We need it.

4. Instead of building the 6th, 7th and 8th settler, take those cities from the Persians if possible. The Persians will not have a huge army. Watch the mercenary situation and hire those instead of letting the Persians have them. 5 Axes, 5 Catapults and 5 Spears are enough in my game, with reinforcement coming. Persian cites are less likely to be flipped by Russians or Mongols, so this is safer than building your own cities.

5. When Russian spawn (hope that they did not flip your cities, otherwise UHV is practically impossible), gift them sailing and open borders, convert them to your state religion, and they will be fine until the Mongols spawn. When the first UHV is fulfilled, build lots of elephants.

6. When the Khan comes, get Russia to DOW on them (you almost definitely have a tech on the Russians). This distracts the Keshiks away. Get all the elephants and kill the Mongols. Turkey may flip one of your Persian cities; give in. We do not want any more wars.

7. Never trade for engineering, so you can train spearman. If you are desperate, you may even blow up your iron/copper so you can train warriors... Tech paths should be Code of Law-Civil Service-Paper-Education-Gunpowder mostly for deterrence. after that scratch research. Build military everywhere.

8. Mercenaries count towards your army count.

I've never been able to trade for construction before the wonders are built, even from Greece (who's usually trading-friendly).

If you did research engineering, catapults are equally cheap, but you have avoid gunpowder, and catapults aren't melee.

Incidentally, I found that the +50% melee production only applies to my capital for some reason. Do you also have the bug?

Don't remember about the melee bug, but it's been a while since I played China.

Rome is f@#$ing impossible. I started out in the middle of Russia, with lots of forests, and I got to being the largest empire, 5 barracks, 5 aqueducts but only 3 amphitheaters, and that's with a great start conquering Athens and Uruk/Babylon. The problem is that as currently stated, the Roman Empire's goals are conquer/chop/whip, and that takes too long since there's no compact Mediterranean Sea. It took me more than 20 moves just to capture Athens (first of all to find out where they are, and then to kill their units in 2 rounds since my Praetorians have to rest). And this is only with a large map. Maybe one can try again in a "normal" map.

Try restart a few more times; I sometimes start near Egypt, and of course their war chariots are no much for the prats.

If Paris and Madrid can only get to size 8 in 1450, what could a jungle-locked Angkor do without all those bananas and fish do? Size 5. And get captured by barbarians. And if there's no population to spare, it's impossible to get great artists in time.

It's not even funny.:mad:

I've got to agree about the Khmer. I've yet to have a start that would let me get the city to pop 10 in time, let alone pop 10 and spawn three artists. If the Khmer spawned with a couple bananas and perhaps spices/sugar, like the Euros spawn with cows and wheat, it would be a lot more manageable.

Speaking of the Khmer, I see them spawning in Africa in about half of my games. I had one game (thankfully I wasn't playing them that time) in which they were sandwiched between the Ethiopians in the east, and the Malinese in the west. Their cultural borders were literally touching. Not only were they harassed by barbarians that game, but Impis too. This is on high Earth likeness, btw.

Don't remember about the melee bug, but it's been a while since I played China.

Rome is f@#$ing impossible. I started out in the middle of Russia, with lots of forests, and I got to being the largest empire, 5 barracks, 5 aqueducts but only 3 amphitheaters, and that's with a great start conquering Athens and Uruk/Babylon. The problem is that as currently stated, the Roman Empire's goals are conquer/chop/whip, and that takes too long since there's no compact Mediterranean Sea. It took me more than 20 moves just to capture Athens (first of all to find out where they are, and then to kill their units in 2 rounds since my Praetorians have to rest). And this is only with a large map. Maybe one can try again in a "normal" map.

actually I don't think the map size makes that much difference in spacing of supposedly neighboring civs like Rome and Greece. The main difference is in the number of civs. If the number of civs was the same, then spacing would definitely be a factor.

About Khmer I have modified 2 xml files so that pastures can be built in jungles, no prereq (for pigs), but not remove jungles, and Rice can be obtained from a plantation as well (which yelds a +1 food).

The Khmer never had to deal with barbs (except if you didn't build Hanoi) if they didn't overexpand towards the west. And they had plenty of sea even if cities like Pagan can't immediately have plantations. Now it's plain jungle and a clear path for impis/barbs to your capital. Occasionally I do get some sea but no fish at all.

I think adding bananas and/or dye/spice around Khmer should be done, a la medieval Europe with the cows.

Rome is f@#$ing impossible. I started out in the middle of Russia, with lots of forests, and I got to being the largest empire, 5 barracks, 5 aqueducts but only 3 amphitheaters, and that's with a great start conquering Athens and Uruk/Babylon. The problem is that as currently stated, the Roman Empire's goals are conquer/chop/whip, and that takes too long since there's no compact Mediterranean Sea. It took me more than 20 moves just to capture Athens (first of all to find out where they are, and then to kill their units in 2 rounds since my Praetorians have to rest). And this is only with a large map. Maybe one can try again in a "normal" map.

I have been completely unable to make any inroads with Rome at all on Monarch on any size of map. I've given up for the time being as I think native cities are/were essential to the win in standard RFC.

On several starts as Spain, my hapless starting military was overrun by horse archers.

The Khmer never had to deal with barbs (except if you didn't build Hanoi) if they didn't overexpand towards the west. And they had plenty of sea even if cities like Pagan can't immediately have plantations. Now it's plain jungle and a clear path for impis/barbs to your capital. Occasionally I do get some sea but no fish at all.

I think adding bananas and/or dye/spice around Khmer should be done, a la medieval Europe with the cows.

you can do it yourself with worldbuilder and see how it plays... it's not like it's that much different from a script. Just ignore the rest of the map when you open the builder. The problem is that a script would probably only add those resources in the capital place, but the other cities would still suck.

The Vikings are both easier and harder in RAND. Settlers are dirt cheap, which means that as long as you are the first to get to the New World (and make sure your conquistidors don't spawn on islands!), you can whip a settler out from a size 5 city in 3 turns). Hence no need for astronomy until when you're ready to sink some ships. The main problem is lack of a discrete Scandinavia and bellicose neighbors like France who declared war on me, but I beat them back. Also, if you start out in tundra without any trees, reload, because that game is going to be impossible. I had to sit partly in French territory (see how Bergen's pressured by Paris' culture?) to get any good cities going.

Also, trading techs seems to be nonexistent in RAND, mostly because the AI is so behind like everybody else. (E.g. theology was discovered by the Arabians when the spawned, and nobody has even built the AP yet, that's why I haven't chosen a state religion yet). I don't know how I'm going to spend my 5000 bucks in 1500, but nobody's selling me anything.

Then the dreary slugfest with privateers begins...I'll finish it some time this weekend.:coffee:

I think the conqueror's event should be disabled. It makes all the games by all non-American civs too similar in a way.

Au contraire. China, for example, can get the conquerors too, but this helps its UHV in a different way (you have to build at least 10 less troops). Japan gets to conquer American civs for a higher score but has to defend them which make it harder, not easier. And compass/guilds/optics is not the most optimal tech path for some civs like Khmer, India, Turkey and Arabia, so a suitable reward should be to get some free troops.

I think the cheap settlers are a bug. It only happens in some of the games.

I have had a successful Viking UHV.

I spawned on an island that could sustain three good cities (lots of seafood near this island).

Interestingly enough I achieved the UHV after sinking only 24 ships (love it when you are the first to have Privateers).

Has anyone succeeded with Rome? I keep missing the "largest empire" requirement.

Well, Khmer and India are simply not playable at this stage, UHV or not, so I don't count them. If the Khmers want to have any hope of winning the game they should beeline optics and astronomy, since the Jakatar islands and Australia is better than their homeland in most of the games.

Because of inflation, the ancient and classical civs have little way to compete on science with the European powers (I have to chuckle a bit here, the Europeans are good because they managed their money well! Or as the game told us so) so they really have to win by UHV. (Is the Chinese capable for a cultural win? Interesting to try) and if they pursue their UHV, then some of them do not need to get optics on time while others always get the conquerors. (Greece, Carthaginian, Japan because you want to trade).

I just think conquerors gave the player a lot of early advantage so beelining optics may be optimal in many cases. (even a case can be made for Arabia: getting missionaries to SAm early may be better if the early conquest goes well, and they already have guilds).

Has anyone succeeded with Rome? I keep missing the "largest empire" requirement


I've been able to get the Roman UHV once. I said in an earlier thread that Rome needs Independents to conquer to make the UHV achievable. My win actually does more to confirm this than refute it. I spawned 7 squares from the Persians, who just so happened to have already built a nice second city. 3 settlers + 2 Persian cities = requisite 5 cities. Had it been a stronger opponent, say Greece with its Phalanx or even a highly developed ancient civ (walls, tons of defensive units, etc.), I would not have been able to grab their land in time. In my case though, praetorians owned immortals and archers. So yeah, Rome needs some weak neighbor to conquer for the build part of the UHV. There just isn't time to make settlers.

As for largest empire business, I've found that generally 5 cities with one cultural expansion each and minimal overlap "usually" is enough for the largest empire in the world. At least on Monarch anyway, I have no clue what the threshold on Emperor is. Sometimes China will be larger, but the odds are in your favor if you can get at least 5 cities quickly.

I had 5 cities due to close proximity to Greek and Carthaginian Roman cities. Just was strange i didn't get the empire size requirement. I'll play around with it in WB.

I got the largest empire criteria with 3 Roman cities, and far away (i.e. more than 10 tiles away from my capital) conquests: Athens, Babylon and Uruk. All of them have expanded crosses. Maybe it's the number of cities you have to own? (China often has 5 cities by 450AD)

I've been able to get the Roman UHV once. I said in an earlier thread that Rome needs Independents to conquer to make the UHV achievable. My win actually does more to confirm this than refute it. I spawned 7 squares from the Persians, who just so happened to have already built a nice second city. 3 settlers + 2 Persian cities = requisite 5 cities. Had it been a stronger opponent, say Greece with its Phalanx or even a highly developed ancient civ (walls, tons of defensive units, etc.), I would not have been able to grab their land in time. In my case though, praetorians owned immortals and archers. So yeah, Rome needs some weak neighbor to conquer for the build part of the UHV. There just isn't time to make settlers.


Since you've got the requisites in one game, why saying that Rome NEEDS indipendents to achieve UHV ? The statement is incorrect.

I think most of the players forget that this is RFC RAND, it has to be different from RFC, heh. The more fixed elements, the less it will be random, and then you'll regret to not have a random RFC...
Think about it: how many UHVs would you achieve in RFC without
- map pre-knowledge
- wiki guides
- re-tries

have you guys actually tried to play the same map again after failing an UHV, in order to obtain a better result ? If you want to make a fair comparison with RFC you should. Otherwise, if you want it completely random, then I think that complaining about its randomness is silly. Last thing, even in RFC many UHVs need re-rolling because sometimes they are just not achievable.

But to get the 5 cities consistently for Rome is often pure luck (if you can find the other civs close by), and it really makes getting the goal with the buildings hard. What Rome should have is a close-by independent city that will appear INSIDE Rome's spawn territory but appearing after Rome has spawned (so that it won't flip automatically), and maybe also 1-2 Celtic cities in future France to simulate RFC. That would be much better than the Celtic galley that I seem to see almost every game now. :p

The Indian and Ethiopian UHVs in RFC are pure luck. Instead they are easier in RAND. The Roman UHV is harder. It's not the same game, period. I'd rather work on really buggy/not achievable UHVs that those who merely need luck. Anyways this idea of the indipendent for Rome sounds too crazy. I like the idea of indipendents but one tied to Rome and bound to be conquered for the UHV doesn't make much sense and looks like a nightmare from the programming point of view. Adding 1 settler to Rome at start sounds a ton better...

I like the idea of indipendents but one tied to Rome and bound to be conquered for the UHV doesn't make much sense and looks like a nightmare from the programming point of view.
From the programming PoV, I see no problem at all. Check all tiles exactly three squares away from Rome. If anybody's culture is present in any of them, do nothing, you don't need independents if there is close neighbour. Otherwise, choose random non-mountain non-water tile among them and build a city there.

Since you've got the requisites in one game, why saying that Rome NEEDS indipendents to achieve UHV ? The statement is incorrect.

They don't need to be Independents per se, but I strongly think Rome needs some close at hand cities that can be taken easily and early. I made numerous attempts, but only managed to win when there was a very close, weak neighbor. It was just an unusual start that I started that close to Persia on a huge map. The reason I advocate Independents is consistency. A fourth settler would probably also work, but that actually seems less random than dropping an Independent city somewhere close to Rome. Rome, especially the AI version, may or may not go for the city, which could lead to lead to any number of outcomes for that city.

have you guys actually tried to play the same map again after failing an UHV, in order to obtain a better result ?

I actually do this constantly :) I kept just missing with that Babylonia game. I knew it was achievable from that start, so I just went back to the initial save and gave it another go, but with a few tweaks to my strategy. If I get a start I like, but fail to achieve UHV, I'll at least try once more. If I fail due to something outside my control it is another story, but with near-misses I always try again.



Oh yeah, speaking of unachievable/buggy UHVs. Has anyone completed Germany? In 1940 I had 2/3 (3 Euros and finished tech tree). However, even after 1950, the 6 civs condition was still "Not yet". I'm not entirely sure what constitutes the control condition, but for what its worth I owned the spawn area of either 6 or 7 (Portugal and I shared Spain's location, though I had more of the area) civs.

From the programming PoV, I see no problem at all. Check all tiles exactly three squares away from Rome. If anybody's culture is present in any of them, do nothing, you don't need independents if there is close neighbour. Otherwise, choose random non-mountain non-water tile among them and build a city there.

yeah this is "easy", though can you explain me the sense of adding an indipendent city near Rome after it spawned just to let it conquer and make the UHV easier ??? This isn't an indipendent city, it's cannon fodder. Just add a settler.... >_>

though can you explain me the sense of adding an indipendent city near Rome after it spawned just to let it conquer and make the UHV easier ??? This isn't an indipendent city, it's cannon fodder.
Well, Rhye already did exactly this in previous RfC (Mediolanum), so he might do this in RAND as well.
For optimality, I'd prefer another settler too (since random city might appear to be awful), but for flavour reasons ready city is better.

Historically Rome conquered most of the surrounding tribes and depended heavily on alliances, so I don't see why an "independent" city representing those tribes would be so artificial.

Persia has done the same exact thing. Any Empire in world's History has done the same exact thing. Also, Mediolanum isn't conquered, it flips.

Also, Mediolanum isn't conquered, it flips.But, of course, I meant that imaginative independent city should flip too.

Just yesterday I started a game as Turkey, exactly in between collapsed Greese, collapsed Persia and collapsed Babylonia. It resulted in five independent cities flipping to me, in range up to 6-7 squares from Sogut.

With no independent cities, Ethiopia's UHV is actually easier. Its now very possible to found Christianity.

yeah I've won a nice turtling game as Ethiopia. Euros actually never colonize Africa... the only threats are barbarians and an awful start, this one easily fixed with a restart ^^

yeah I've won a nice turtling game as Ethiopia. Euros actually never colonize Africa... the only threats are barbarians and an awful start, this one easily fixed with a restart ^^

Is that starting with 1 or 2 settlers?

Well, today I started a nice turtling game as Mali. I was born exactly between Ethiopia and collapsed India... Second Ethiopian city flipped, and they declared (it was first time anybody declared war to me after flip in RAND), I took their capital just for Dye source and some infrastructure. After that, it was not quite so impossible to take native(!) Dilli guarded by one(!) warrior(!).
Now I am thorn between building a port and turning into missionary factory immedeately or building 2-3 marble-dependent wonders before.

Is that starting with 1 or 2 settlers?

2 settlers. Did you modify it ? If they start with one it's somewhat tougher. I was blessed with 5 flat + 1 hill flood plains for the 2 starting cities and a nice land around which really tempted me to be colonized :D

Yeah, Ethiopia was originally just 1 settler which is impossible.

Started a game as USA the other day, within a few turn AI controlled Spain had won its UHV.

I kept playing even with the message Spain have won, within a few more turns every one had declared war on them and they collapsed.

Since downloading, ive seen at least a couple strange games where ethiopia has founded christianity, and would have won had i not. also, persia almost always spawns south of china and once i saw it found judaism upon spawning. that mad for a weird game

Turkey's first goal is pretty easy, but then it was in RFC.

"Control one other civilizations start area"

I did this when collapsed greek cities flipped to me on the third turn.

Turkey's second goal is incredibly cryptic.

"Control 3 cities in each of 4 different landmasses in 1700 AD"

I'm currently playing a Turkey game where I want to build towards a domination victory, so I haven't been worrying about the UHVs, but this goal is one I don't really follow.

In RFC you are supposed to have Greece and Mesopotamia and the black sea in 1700. Now from what I can tell you are supposed to have 3 cities in 4 different continents, but I'm not really sure here.

Do the Africa, Europe and Asia like continents in RAND count as separate land masses? Even if they do, the Turkish goal would require you to go colonize the America or Australia, since it asks for a fourth.

I never understood Turkey's second UHV. Never. I failed it three times already.

Brianung, no need to revive a 2-year-old thread for that. Open up a new topic. But to answer your question: The Middle East, I believe, is part of Asia. Europe is just above where you spawn. Africa is to the south west. It's kinda like England's UHV in regular RFC.