What if Russians in WWII were much slower then the allies and had much greater resistince om their way to berlin, and that the Allies reached berlin, and conitnued marching to Warsaw. So Poland would be split between Russia and the Allies via Warsaw, and the same situation for Germany would've happened to Poland instead. When Communism fell in Europe due to the fall of the "warsaw wall" Western Poland would've economically helped Eastern Poland in the 90's like Western Germany did for Eastern Germany.

Quite an instering storry, don't you think? I wonder what would be the effects of today, Germany being an Economic Superpower from Day 1, Poland being split...

So what do you think? What if, the Allied troops were much quicker, succesfull, and fought less resistence, and marched to Berlin, and continued to Warsaw? While the Russian troops were late, much slower, and faced much much more resistence?

The End result is, Poland, is split in two, 1 communist, 1 allied. Warsaw is barrier between the two, much like Berlin was in real life. Germany was also a unified country from day 1, and not from 1989.

What do you think? I will make a map but not now as i'd like some more opinions on it.

Well first and foremost Poland would not have veen swiped under the carpet of history just because its allies where to embarrased of giving Poland to the Bolsheviks.:mad:

One of the main reasons Poles come off as obnoxios in the eyes of a lot of people (those who do not understand).:sad:

Why are you assuming the use of the Oder-Neisse Line in a world where the Soviet Occupation Zone in Germany doesn't exist? :p (Not to mention several other things.) It wasn't explicitly stated, but putting Warsaw in central Poland as opposed to western Poland is kinda an artifact of the post-1945 era.

I think that Hellas and the Turks would have a much more interesting time.

Why are you assuming the use of the Oder-Neisse Line in a world where the Soviet Occupation Zone in Germany doesn't exist? :p (Not to mention several other things.) It wasn't explicitly stated, but putting Warsaw in central Poland as opposed to western Poland is kinda an artifact of the post-1945 era.

I think that Hellas and the Turks would have a much more interesting time.

Because instead of it Happening in Germany, it'll happen in Poland? :rolleyes:

There would be no "Eastern Poland" those territories would have been annexed into the Soviet Union just like OTL, leaving a Polish rump state propped up by the Western allies.

Because instead of it Happening in Germany, it'll happen in Poland? :rolleyes:
But without the Soviets to give away Germany beyond the Oder-Neisse, why would it be lost? Churchill was definitely none too happy about any elimination of German territory in such German-populated zones as Stettin, most of West Prussia, and Silesia. And without the Soviets to drive out the Germans, Stalin - or anybody else - can't claim it as a fait accompli.

If Poland is divided in such a scenario, Germany would probably be occupied for a longer time before it was allowed to get back on its feet by the Allies, but would still retain Silesia and parts of West Prussia. Soviet-dominated Poland would be so relatively small that it might as well be annexed and SSR-ified by Moscow. Hell, even Western, democratic Poland will be small. It might be that the Allies won't even bother to say 'kk Poland we want half and Sovs get half' and just yield the entire thing to the Soviet occupation sphere, relying once more on the old Soviet promise of free elections. Which would of course not work.

What about Czechoslovakia? What's your scenario imagining there? Hell, what are even the mechanics of this happening? PoD?

Why are you assuming the use of the Oder-Neisse Line in a world where the Soviet Occupation Zone in Germany doesn't exist? :p (Not to mention several other things.) It wasn't explicitly stated, but putting Warsaw in central Poland as opposed to western Poland is kinda an artifact of the post-1945 era.

I think that Hellas and the Turks would have a much more interesting time.

Why ? Is it because the Turks where afraid of the Soviets at WW2 ?

umm ok.. maybe my scenerio's have some flaws in them... Let's just say it happened, Poland get's Silesia and Danzig, and Szczecin, and the Soviet Union didn't suck Eastern Poland up as it got back it's belarussian/lithuanian lands(the polish majority ones) and in't actually that small.

Let's start from there, How would history unfold?

It'd still be Eastern European to me. :love:

It'd still be Eastern European to me. :love:

regarding your avatar... I just noticed... I stopped reading Ctrl-Alt-Del :cry:

The End result is, Poland, is split in two, 1 communist, 1 allied. Warsaw is barrier between the two, much like Berlin was in real life. Germany was also a unified country from day 1, and not from 1989.

Berlin was dozens of miles inside East Germany. It was not on the border.

I think that, if Berlin fell, the war would be over. We wouldn't have to march all the way to Warsaw. The Soviet Union would probably recieve back, as part of the final peace, all territories it held before 22 June, 1941. That includes the Baltic States, half of Poland, and part of northern Rumania.

^that sounds reasonable.

I have too much trouble getting my head around the Western allies defeating the Soviets in order to gain western Poland to even think about it being divided up.

I have too much trouble getting my head around the Western allies defeating the Soviets in order to gain western Poland to even think about it being divided up.
Theoretically, it wouldn't involve a clash between the Western Allies and the USSR, because the Anglo-Americano-Free French-etc. armies would just have gotten there much faster.

Allies let intentionally Russians took Poland and Berlin as their war booty. See yalta conference. ;)

Allies let intentionally Russians took Poland and Berlin as their war booty. See yalta conference. ;)
Yawn. By the time of Yalta the Russians were already deep enough into Poland so that they could lay claim to Warsaw without the Western Allies having a chance at it, so the PoD would have to be earlier. :rolleyes:

Teheran? I don't remember well...

Teheran? I don't remember well...
I was under the impression that that was more about the opening of the second front, and that the only parts that had to do with Poland were about the drawing of the eastern border and that FDR and Churchill indicated that they would be inclined to allow some kind of redrawing there but not the exact boundaries.

In every case Allies let Poland fall in Russia's influence sphere intentionally, as Berlin.

Yes, well, they DID suffer the most of any Ally that war.

Let's say it already happened, i want to draw a map, but i need to know some things.

I'd think that East Poland would get it's Majority Polish lands in lithuania and Belarus. Let's say up to Minsk and Vilnuis. (Minsk was razed to the ground by German planes btw, would that effect anything).

How big would West Germany be? Silesia defenitly shown they wanted to be part of Poland as shown by the Silesian Uprisings. I think that Silesia would be Polish, but i'm not sure about Gdansk and Szczecin. I have a feeling West Poland get's Gdansk but loses Szczecin?

I'm just thinking, Germany would still be divided by France, England and America like in real life right? Well in real life, Russia also split of Germany. Germany became two countries and was much smaller afterwords. With a united Germany, wouldn't their be fears that Germany could be to big and have another uprising? (Probably wouldn't happen, but i said fears, after two wars people i'm sure would be biased and afraid that Germany will start a third war). The End result is West Poland getting all 3 areas, as well as probably areas like Lusatia, and areas such as Bavaria becoming fully independent,

I will make a map after some feedback.

Because instead of it Happening in Germany, it'll happen in Poland? :rolleyes:

I believe he is right. Stalin pushed the westernmost borders for Poland because
1) it made excuse for keeping eastern Poland
2) because he was sure Poland remained under his rule, and with Germany, it wasn't sure.

It all depends how far the allies would have got:

to eastern borders of Poland: Poland is re-established in pre-war borders + Upper Silesia, Masuria and perhaps entire Prussia, Gdansk and Slupsk, but without Lower Silesia, Lubusz region or Western Pommerania. Perhaps it has to let Wolyn and Polesie go to USSR.
The rest share the usual fate, if Soviets got there - communists take the rules.

to Bug: Stalin keeps eastern half of Poland, and again, Poland gets Upper Silesia, Prussia, Gdansk and Slupsk/Stolp. Poland remains capitalist.

Between western borders and Bug - Poland loses its eastern part, and gets USilesia, Gdansk, Prussia and Slupsk/Stolp. A mixed communist - democratic gouverment is established, but communists finally manage to oust the democratic parties and communism is established. Western mights issue usual letters of complains, nothing happens.

Allies get to western borders of Poland - Poland remains communistic, either gets the usual gains, or gets nothing or nearly nothing (Prussia for sure, and perhaps some part of Upper Silesia).

The allies would have moved into Poland without a second thought if they could-the Cold War was in full swing by that time and both sides knew that where ever this war ended could be the initial front lines for the next one.
On another note, I think it would be a mixed blessing for the Germans: they'd remain unified, but in real life they got lots of aid and support because of their strategic position on the border. Without this, the allies would probably be far less generous.

I believe he is right. Stalin pushed the westernmost borders for Poland because
1) it made excuse for keeping eastern Poland
2) because he was sure Poland remained under his rule, and with Germany, it wasn't sure.

It all depends how far the allies would have got:

to eastern borders of Poland: Poland is re-established in pre-war borders + Upper Silesia, Masuria and perhaps entire Prussia, Gdansk and Slupsk, but without Lower Silesia, Lubusz region or Western Pommerania. Perhaps it has to let Wolyn and Polesie go to USSR.
The rest share the usual fate, if Soviets got there - communists take the rules.

to Bug: Stalin keeps eastern half of Poland, and again, Poland gets Upper Silesia, Prussia, Gdansk and Slupsk/Stolp. Poland remains capitalist.

Between western borders and Bug - Poland loses its eastern part, and gets USilesia, Gdansk, Prussia and Slupsk/Stolp. A mixed communist - democratic gouverment is established, but communists finally manage to oust the democratic parties and communism is established. Western mights issue usual letters of complains, nothing happens.

Allies get to western borders of Poland - Poland remains communistic, either gets the usual gains, or gets nothing or nearly nothing (Prussia for sure, and perhaps some part of Upper Silesia).

What do you think is more likely? East Poland getting sucked up into part of Russia or remianing independent?

I have the feeling it would be independent. Do you think any lands to the east, in Lithuania, Belarus, Carpathian Ruthenia would be part of East Poland?

Also 1 or two more comments then i'll have enough to make the map tomorow.

Eastern Poland would be a part of USSR as far as it would have taken it. If it was taken by Allies, some or all of it would remain polish. Carpathian Ruthenia would remain part of Cz-S, Lithuania (apart from the polish part) would remain independant, and (eastern) Belarus, if captured by Allies, would be returned to SU.

It is possible regional unions would be formed, there was a lot of talking about it during ww2: Poland agreed on union with Cz-S, and Yugoslavia with Greece... So perhaps this would continue.

Eastern Poland would be a part of USSR as far as it would have taken it. If it was taken by Allies, some or all of it would remain polish. Carpathian Ruthenia would remain part of Cz-S, Lithuania (apart from the polish part) would remain independant, and (eastern) Belarus, if captured by Allies, would be returned to SU.

It is possible regional unions would be formed, there was a lot of talking about it during ww2: Poland agreed on union with Cz-S, and Yugoslavia with Greece... So perhaps this would continue.

Well, the story is that, the allies get to Warszawa, and Warszawa is more of a dividing point between West Poland and East Poland.

Theoretically, it wouldn't involve a clash between the Western Allies and the USSR, because the Anglo-Americano-Free French-etc. armies would just have gotten there much faster.

Yeah, and Stalin would have just let them break their agreements and claim the prize despit what his country had been through.

The Russians had reached Poland by August '44 and they paused outside Warsaw to let the resistance be crushed.

Dreaming.

Yeah, and Stalin would have just let them break their agreements and claim the prize despit what his country had been through.

The Russians had reached Poland by August '44 and they paused outside Warsaw to let the resistance be crushed.

Dreaming.

This is an Alternate History, so let's just say that the allies were much earlier with D-Day and market garden and stuff and got to Berlin faster, and managed to get all the way to Warsaw, while the soviets were still fighting there way to Warsaw by december.

From then on, what will the history be?

I'm drawing a map, so, do you think Hungary is Communist? If we keep the divide along the Vistula river, Hungary and Slovakia would be communist, and czech, and West Poland wouldn't be.

I'm predicting the Balkans will stay the same.

What do you think of Bavarian independence? Any other Germanic states should get independence?

Well.. if the allies get to Warszawa before the Soviets, then that means that Germany has already capitulated. doesn't it? I mean, they'd have to take Berlin before they go for Warsaw, right?

Why would they keep going if they already took Berlin? Doesn't that imply a German capitulation and an end of the war in Europe?

Or did the fighting continue in parts of the continent even after Berlin was taken by the Soviets?

Well.. if the allies get to Warszawa before the Soviets, then that means that Germany has already capitulated. doesn't it? I mean, they'd have to take Berlin before they go for Warsaw, right?

Why would they keep going if they already took Berlin? Doesn't that imply a German capitulation and an end of the war in Europe?

Or did the fighting continue in parts of the continent even after Berlin was taken by the Soviets?

Fighting happenes alot after the capturing of a capital in real life. So why wouldn't it in WWII?

Yes, well, they DID suffer the most of any Ally that war.
That's hardly the Poles' fault. ;)

That's hardly the Poles' fault. ;)

And how much did Poland suffer as a result of it? Apart from the parts of the war that actually happened in their country, that is.

The Red Army regardless deserved the pride of taking Berlin themselves.

I just rememberred i book a read where a historian theorized that if the Western Allies had shot for Berlin it might have resulted in an "accidental" bombing of them by the Soviets, making Eisenhower reluctant to continue and possibly even forcing him to turn back. Perhaps this could contribute to the conversation.

Yalta conference. It was realy not about reach area, Prague should be liberated by Americans before Soviets.