Anyone know if BTS is coming for mac? Or should I not hold my breath?

I'm no doctor, but I highly advise you not to hold your breath. ;)

Seriously though, a :bts: port for the Macintosh is not anticipated at the moment. Due to lackluster sales of Warlords on the Mac, among other issues, we likely may never see :bts: in the near future. Given this, we never expected to see Civ3 Conquest either, but we did get it after a while. So,... . :shrug:

same basic idea. Firaxis has said they wont rule out the possibility of a port, but that they have no plans to set a release sate or say what progress is like
....

so yeah, :shrug:

On a quick check, this question surfaces about every three months, and the answer never gets any better :p

I'll add it to the FAQ, but what's the betting we'll have another replica thread in ... November?

about 100%, until they just come out and say: "No, we're not making BTS for mac" people will keep asking.

They *have* said that here, as near as it's possible to.

No one can predict the future to 100% accuracy. Not whether BtS will come ... not whether the sky will fall ... and not when the next thread like this will materialise :)

Even if there were extremely definitive word that BTS was not being produced for the Mac, there would always be a newcomer that didn't know that. I think the fact that so much time has passed since the Windows release of BTS is a good indication that there won't be a Mac release of BTS.

There seems to be fewer and fewer Mac ports. As PPC's are replaced by Intel, I would expect that the market for Mac ports would shrink as some Mac gamers choose to run Windows versions rather than a Mac port (which generally costs more than the Windows version).

Mac versions of games are not usually *that* much pricier, I'd say for sure cheaper than buying a windows setup for my Mac. I don't see how it could actually be a loss for the company to port something like that. I mean, almost all the code remains intact, it isn't THAT much to change, especially with intels (yay) so although the market for the port would be much smaller that cost of making as opposed to the original PC version would also be much lower.

I kind of foresaw in May of 2007 when in the Firaxis chat about BTS they said there "will be a version of BTS for mac, but no contract has been worked out.." (after I asked a mod to ask them) and a bunch of other technical stuff about $ that I had better chances of just downloading bootcamp and waiting for it to come out for PC rather than X amount of years if any for mac. :(

It really sucks. By the time Aspyr comes out with BTS for Mac if they do at all Civ V will be coming out for PC. But I'm really not one to complain, I've been able to mod and all that jazz with bootcamp, I guess I'm lucky compared to you chaps. :p (lol sorry)

There is no hardcore proof of it coming out or not, so I guess there might still be hope.

Alan, you crack me up :lol: Yes, about every 3 months sounds about right, and if I'm not the one posting the question again, I have to be one of the ones responding and putting in a plug for a port.

New posting about, so how about a new question about ports... Would it make porting easier if Aspyr were to release an INTEL MAC-only version of BTS? Not that I want to leave out ppc mac users, I'm just curious about how porting works and its complications. Warlords was incredibly buggy and Brad left Aspyr, and it just got me wondering if having to troubleshoot for so many different types of macs the porting less profitable and therefore decreases the likelihood of new ports.

…lower than expected sales of Warlords

Since Civ3, Mac customers have had to settle for versions that are, in comparison to the Windows release: (1) late to market, (2) feature incomplete, (3) buggy and poorly integrated with the OS, and (4) available only at the full MSRP.

Prior to the Intel Macs, there really was not much choice, and Firaxis had a captive market. If a Mac consumer is tolerant of buggy behavior (and other UI weirdness) and willing to pay full price, why not use Boot Camp (et al.) and just buy the Window version?

Beetle - I think you make some good points, but I would like to add a few things. Currently, we have a two choices - purchase the Windows version when it comes out, get relatively rapid upgrades and, if we are willing to wait for 3 to 6 months, we can get a deal on the price. The other choice is to wait at least 6 months for the Mac version, get a relatively buggy release and slow patches and pay full retail price whether we purchase it on the day of release or 10 years later.

In addition to this, the Mac version will not run a large number of the mods that are available for Windows. I believe this is because many mods use a custom .dll file and there is no way to translate this for use on the Mac.

Therefore, my vote is to buy the Windows version and run it in BootCamp. I would definitely prefer a Mac version that is the full equal to the Windows version, but I will take the Windows version before taking an unequal Mac version. Frankly speaking, I am even willing to pay full retail price for an equal Mac version.

If I was sitting in Firaxis/Aspyr shoes, I would make a decision - simultaneous release with FULL parity (mods run on both systems, patches released at the same time, etc.) preferably Mac & Windows in the same package, or don't bother with a Mac release. With the ability to run these games in BootCamp or under Parallels, Fusion or Crossover, why settle for less than equality. Some games companies already recognize this and they will be the ones who succeed. I do not blame Aspyr - I think Firaxis should be working on this from the beginning and take responsibility for an equal Mac release.

Under rabber's analysis, the supply of Mac games will diminish.

I wonder how Blizzard justifies their decision to develop both Windows and Mac versions of their games and release both versions on the same disc.

Blizzard pride themselves on being able to deliver non-buggy, feature-complete Mac versions of their games. And they are clearly at the same price and release date as the Windows versions, since they appear on the same disk. They have developed business processes to achieve this from the ground up.

But Blizzard are, unfortunately, not typical of most of the rest of the games developers.

Thanks Rabber for expanding on my rather terse points. For my part, I am pretty frugal. For example, I picked up Portal (Windows only) for $10. Even though I boot my iMac into Windows for work, I find I cannot be bothered just to play a game. I am glad that lesson about my proclivities only cost me ten bucks!

The next game I expect to buy is Spore (http://easpore.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/easpore.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=19766); it is not just Blizzard that believes in customer parity. Blizzard made that high-minded decision long be for the Intel-Macs. It was an easy choice for them: Neglect potential customers out or not? Apple, for their part, makes it pretty easy to develop cross-platform — but only if you use their tools. This means writing for OS X first, but a port to Windows is free and easy.

The interesting question to me is this: Is Firaxis leaving money on the table? I think so.

Presumably, Mac users who don’t mind Boot Camp (et al.) for games buy BtS (et al.) when they first come out (or when it drops to their price point). I would point out that the larger market for Windows gamers (which these folks are) is very competitive. Some of these customers buy instead from other developers (http://www.bighugegames.com/ron.shtml) that don’t even bother with Mac ports at all. Firaxis is getting Mac customers this way, but maybe not as many as they or others think.

Okay, so what about Mac gamers that can’t be bothered with Boot Camp? The disappointing sales from Warlord indicate that these folks are not willing to pay full price for games that are missing features, buggy, and late to market. I say, good for those consumers for being discriminating! Certainly I am in this group. These are the potential customers that Firaxis is ignoring.

The other growth area that Firaxis is neglecting is the iPhone, currently a very hot (http://www.apple.com/iphone/appstore/) gaming (and application) platform. Civilization Revolutions just came out for multi-platforms (http://www.civilizationrevolution.com/ds/), but not the iPhone.

Firaxis used to milk the Macintosh market. They were one of the few publishers that bothered with Mac ports at all, so they could charge full price for inferior versions and their Mac customers would suck it up. That cash cow is gone. If they want to maximize profits, they are going to have to modernize their development process. If Firaxis cannot do right by Mac customers, perhaps they should just walk away?

I wanted to clarify a few things. First of all, if I know a game is going to be released for the Mac, I will hold off on buying the Windows version. I would greatly prefer not to go into BootCamp to play a game. Although I have very little discretionary spending these days, I don't mind paying full retail price (but not more than the Windows version) for my games. In essence, I would prefer to buy now rather than wait 6 months for the price to come down.

The biggest factor for me in determining whether or not to buy the Mac version of the game is how equal is it. If mods can't be run cross platform then I will buy the windows version. To cite some examples, I most often play Total Realism with Civ IV. This mod is still not BtS compatible, but it will never be Mac compatible. I also play Europa Univerallis 3. I originally purchased the Windows versions but when teh Mac versions became available, I bought that. One reason was that my favorite mod is cross platform. (The only issue is that I have to use Windows to extract the files since they are delivered as self extracting ACE files and I cannot find a Mac program to decompress.) I think that Virtual Programming went the extra mile to release a fully equal program.

I will also likely purchase SPore because it will be cross-platform out of the box. I agree that the iPhone is becoming an important platform, but I understand that it will take Firaxis some time to make Civ Revolutions work here.

Firaxis is getting Mac customers this way, but maybe not as many as they or others think.
...
Firaxis used to milk the Macintosh market. They were one of the few publishers that bothered with Mac ports at all.
...
That cash cow is gone.
Nope!

Firaxis isn't milking, or ignoring, any Mac customers. Firaxis develops Windows software and couldn't care less about Mac customers. They have no in-house Mac expertise. If they did, the Civ4 series would not be so difficult to port.

Firaxis simply says "yes" to a Mac publisher that makes a proposal to give them "the right" up-front cash plus a percentage of sales in order to port Firaxis software. Firaxis are not milking the Mac market, they are ignoring the Mac market, and milking the Mac porting developer. If that porting developer doesn't make enough to cover their up-front costs then they lose, and they are going to be reluctant to do it again. And they can't reduce their sales price below what they have to pay to Firaxis for every copy, so the Mac version of the game is never going to be discounted.

Some Windows developers demand a higher up-front cash and/or higher cuts on sales, and as a result their games never get ported. Some Windows developers may base their games on something like the Havok physics engine that costs arm+leg to license for Mac OS, making it uneconomic to port their games in the first place. These games will not be ported at all.

Some games developers (eg. Blizzard) create their games using cross-platform libraries that allow them to compile versions for both platforms. They still have to test separately on Mac and Windows, but there is no extra cost for writing the code. Hell will probably freeze before Firaxis adapts to a model like that.

iPhone is way too recent for Firaxis to have considered doing a Revolution port for it. They just don't operate on that sort of timetable. Wait a year to see if they wake up and consider the volume of iPhone/touch product out there.

...

I also play Europa Univerallis 3. I originally purchased the Windows versions but when teh Mac versions became available, I bought that. One reason was that my favorite mod is cross platform. (The only issue is that I have to use Windows to extract the files since they are delivered as self extracting ACE files and I cannot find a Mac program to decompress.) I think that Virtual Programming went the extra mile to release a fully equal program.

I'm sure the mod maker would be prepared to provide a cross platform version of the mod if he were made aware of the problem with using his mod on a Mac. It only needs to be produced in .zip or .7z format, for example.

Firaxis develops Windows software and couldn't care less about Mac customers.

Thanks Alan for that brutally stark assessment! You are no doubt correct. It is not like they are publicly traded company. Still, don’t they have accountants or other fiduciary that would point out to Sid that he is leaving money on the table? Or are they Windows developers only because of the lutz?

I originally purchased the Windows versions but when the Mac versions became available, I bought that.

See, gamers are so flush with cash they will buy a game twice! Those are the customers Firaxis is happy to give the bird?

Thanks Alan for that brutally stark assessment! You are no doubt correct. It is not like they are publicly traded company. Still, don’t they have accountants or other fiduciary that would point out to Sid that he is leaving money on the table? Or are they Windows developers only because of the lutz?
My guess is they simply don't know how to program for a Mac. What's 'the lutz'?


See, gamers are so flush with cash they will buy a game twice! Those are the customers Firaxis is happy to give the bird? There are clearly not enough of them to make it attractive to Aspyr to produce BtS ... and Aspyr *do* know how to spell Macintosh. Why would Firaxis see it as worth while to change their whole software engineering process and hire scarce Mac game programmers just in order to make their software run on a few more percent of the world's computers? Those computers can already run the Windows version if players are prepared to reboot.

My guess is they simply don't know how to program for a Mac.

Is that not mostly a function of their tools though? I mean, it is not like they are using the Windows UI. And CIV got less proprietary with how it uses PHP and XML. So they are starting to move in the right direction.

What's 'the lutz'?

It is some old guy embarrassing himself by trying to talk like the kids. I meant lulz (http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/Lolz).

There are clearly not enough of them to make it attractive to Aspyr to produce BtS ... and Aspyr *do* know how to spell Macintosh.

Aspyr is expected to do all the work, take all the risk, and then split the profits. Since Mac gamers now have choices, it is no longer safe to assume that that market will pay full retail for mediocre products that are late to market.

Why would Firaxis see it as worth while to change their whole software engineering process and hire scarce Mac game programmers just in order to make their software run on a few more percent of the world's computers? Those computers can already run the Windows version if players are prepared to reboot.

This is the interesting question I think worth discussing here. My thoughts are:


The engineering process has to be refreshed periodically anyway. Just do it right next time. It is not clear to me that multiple Mac game programmers would need to be hired. It is just adding new tools and expectation to the current stable. With the proper tools, one guy who knows the different nuances come compile time might be enough.
The few more percent question is the rub. I would guess that, for many titles, selling 6 percent more product at launch (i.e., full price) would be the difference between good profit and breaking even.
For the reasons I outlined before, Boot Camp cannot be depended upon to move product.

Engineering process don't get torn up and rewritten, they evolve.

"Tools" and "nuances" hardly covers the extent of the differences between the Windows and Mac OS X libraries of APIs, frameworks and file systems. Have you ever tried comparing the two development environments?

To do the job properly, as companies like Blizzard seem to, you have to throw away DirectX and replace it with OpenGL and OpenAl. You have to forego Windows-only game engines or develop converters for them that will drive the Mac OS X APIs. The Mac-savvy programmers have to be in the team at the start, they don't come along and just flip a compiler switch at the end of the project to build the Mac version. Is all that really worth doing just for a few percent extra sales? Probably, if, like Blizzard, you took those decisions from the start, but not if you are starting from where Firaxis is now.

$130 for Leopard
$100 for XP
$60 for Civ4 + BtS
$50 for Colonization
$340 total.

*Cries*

Sorry I didn't mean to bug you guys about it. I figured it was already a "covered topic" but I also didn't want to read/necro up a dated thread if there has been some new news. I will do a better job of researching before starting likely-duplicate threads.

I do have an intel mac, and I could do the whole bootcamp thing. But then I would need to re-buy Civ 4. Granted I can just buy civ complete for only 50$ or whatever. I ALREADY bought civ4 and warlords for mac.

I also need to acquire windows, which I really don't feel like buying. I also don't want to run bootcamp because I use many other programs while playing civ. I am more interested in using Fusion to run windows ... in a window. But still I need to get windows.

I am passively working on it. Maybe if I can find a cute deal on win XP I will finally make it happen.

Steam and CrossOver Games seems to be an option. You still need to buy Civ4Windows as a Steam download, and you need Crossover Games, but you don't have to buy Windows itself.

I haven't tried it myself. I already have Civ4Windows on DVD and the Aspyr versions, so I can't really justify buying yet another version of a game I don't play, just so that I can talk about it here :eek:

I already have Civ4Windows on DVD and the Aspyr versions, so I can't really justify buying yet another version of a game I don't play, just so that I can talk about it here :eek:

AlanH, what games do you play?

I don't really, apart from the occasional casual game of solitaire or sudoku. I prefer solving "real" technical problems. Being retired, I can do that for fun now rather than relying on it for a living.

What were the games you use to play?

Civ3 vanilla, Myst series, Lemmings ... nothing very deep. Manic Miner back in the days of the Spectrum.

I like Lemmings. There was one level where you had to stagger successive stairs.

It is very nice of you to run this forum.

Thank you!

Lemmings, oh yes... happy memories. I wasted hours and hours of my life on that game while I was supposed to be writing my thesis. Somehow I still got a doctorate at the end.

I think it was the tacky music I enjoyed most.

Lemmings, oh yes... happy memories. I wasted hours and hours of my life on that game while I was supposed to be writing my thesis. Somehow I still got a doctorate at the end.

I think it was the tacky music I enjoyed most.

Most of that "tacky" music was written by a couple of guys called Mozart and Beethoven.... at least on the port that I have.

They *have* said that here, as near as it's possible to.

No one can predict the future to 100% accuracy. Not whether BtS will come ... not whether the sky will fall ... and not when the next thread like this will materialise :)



ah nuts... :sad:

Why not make this a sticky?

I have done so, reluctantly. Too many stickies reduce the chances of people seeing the other new threads as they drop further down the page, and I can't see any existing stickies that can be unstuck.

Note that this is already covered in the sticky FAQ (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=7105489#post7105489)

Is it at least possible to simply add the ten new civs as a mod? (With the appropriate mods for buildings.)

Yes although there would still be things missing that would be difficult (to say the least) to add ie the new espionage system, paratroopers, etc.

this likley has already been posted, but some things to point out;

I can understand you wish to know more about how we choose titles to port to Mac. We continually evaluate games to be brought over to the platform, looking at several factors including its popularity, whether the Mac market is interested in the game, whether the company that owns the rights is interested in having a Mac version, and how hard it would be to port over (for example, if a game using the same software engine has already been ported, it becomes much easier for us to have it done). Our customers are one of the sources of determining interest, so we thank you for your mail.

However the Civ 4 series is a bit different. Warlords did not produce a great number of sales, far less than was expected. There is also the problem of programing for Civ 4, now as I said above using the same engine as previous game usually makes porting new titles easier, that is not the case for the Civ 4 titles. While the actual game is fairly stable (not perfect of course) the code behind it on the PC side is a mess. This kind of thrown together code makes it difficult to port the game and fix problems that arise in the port. Due to the sheer number of problems we have encountered with working with the PC code for the Civ 4 titles it may be that production does not wish to have to go through it again. For instance when patching games it usually takes a couple of weeks or as much as eight weeks. Civ 4 patches take us months to program and test because of constant problems.

I wish I could give better news about BTS for Civ 4 but at this time we have no plans to port the expansion.

Have a nice day,
Aspyr

I'm hoping that they do, because i'd like to buy a mac and civ is one of my favourite games, but maybe if they'd put the game together better there would be a number of things solved;

1. PC-Mac porting much, much easier
2. we'd have a faster pc game (i've heard it's very slow)

note, i'm not to sure, but technology is changing, mac and pc files and programs are starting to look like similar files

Honestly, isn't there someone with the skills to create a mod that just adds the bts civs and leaders to warlords?