Can any one please make a Leopard 2 Tank for the Germans :). I am Planing on a Mini-Mod for the Germans that would include nonnob3's German Infantry units as flavor units for the Germans. I am also going to use Kinboat's A7V Tank and would appere when you get Combustion. I am Requesting a Modern Tank for the Germans called the Leopard 2 Tank. Here is the discription of the unit. Fell free to use the discription in your civilopedia when someone creates the Leopard Tank ;).

Originaly at www.fprado.com/armorsite/leo2.htm
The development of the Leopard 2 MBT can be traced back to a project started in the 1960's. At this time Germany and the United States were still working on the MBT-70 program, so this project had a very low priority.

While Germany and the United States were developing the MBT/KPz-70, their agreement did not allow a parallel national tank program, but when the Leopard 1 MBT was introduced into service in 1965 Porsche was awarded a contract to develop improved components to increase its combat effectiveness to the standard demanded by the MBT/KPz-70. This program lasted until 1967, when the contract expired, and became known as 'Vergoldeter Leopard' or 'Gilded Leopard'.
When the first cracks appeared in 1967 in the German/American cooperation program for joint development of the MBT/KPz-70, the German Ministry of Defense decided to continue and to increase the development of the 'Vergoldeter Leopard', which later became known as 'Keiler' (Wild Boar).

The prototypes looked at first glance very much like the Leopard 1 A4, but with a wedge-shaped bow and an exhaust grille moved to the rear plate. The roadwheels came from the MBT/KPz-70, and the return rollers from the Leopard 1. The engine also came from the MBT/KPz-70, a 12 cylinder MTU MB-873 Ka-500 water-cooled multi-fuel four-stroke engine, together with its 20 kW generator, gearbox, air filters, and the cooling and braking systems, forming a compact group that could be easily replaced in 15 minutes. Ten of the seventeen turrets built were fitted with a 105 mm smooth bore gun while the remaining seven had a 120 mm smooth bore gun, both designed and produced by Rheinmetall.
When the first analysis of the Yom Kippur War of 1973 became available, it became clear that increased armor protection would be a decisive factor in the future. The outcome was a decision of upgrade the Leopard 2 to MLC 60 (Military Loading Class 60 tons), which would allow increased armor, and to modify one of the turrets with a new multi-layer type of armor. This resulted in a breakthrough in the Leopard 2 program and the first step towards the Leopard 2 AV.

During 1973, negotiations began between the United States and Germany to standardize certain components of both nations main battle tanks of the eighties. As a result of this, by 1976 it was agreed to study how Leopard 2 could be modified to meet US performance and constraints. Based on the altered German and US military demands, Porsche, Krauss-Maffei, and Wegmann designed and built the Leopard 2 AV (Austere Version).

The 120 mm Rheinmetall main gun is fully stabilized in both azimuth and elevation, and the WNA-H22 electro-hidraulic gun control system is fitted. The gun fires two types of ammunition, both developed by Rheinmetall APFSDS-T, known as DM-33 KE (Kinetische Energy), and HEAT-MP-T, known as DM-12 MZ (Mehrzweck = multipurpose), both types having combustible cases. 27 rounds of 120 mm ammunition are stored in a special magazine in the forward section of the hull, to the left of the driver's station - additional 15 (making a total of 42) are stored in the left side of the turret bustle, and separated from the fighting compartment by an electrically operated door. Should the ammunition in the bustle be hit, blow-off panels in the turret roof would direct any explosion upwards. A co-axial 7.620mm MG 3is mounted to the left of the main gun and 4,750 rounds of machine gun ammunition are carried.

And here are the pictures of the Leopard Tank

http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/Leo2_Pics/Leo2_1stBatch_01.jpg

http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/Leo2_Pics/Leo2_1stBatch_02.jpg

http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/Leo2_Pics/Leopard_2_prototype-02.jpg

http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/Leo2_Pics/LEOPARD2A6-BIG.jpg

http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/Leo2_Pics/Leo2A3.gif

http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/Leo2_Pics/Leopard-2-1980.jpg

I have found some Diagrams of the tank :).

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/leap2-1.gif

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/leap2-2.gif

I would like to see this tank made, but the only version i would want to have is this one the "Leopard 2 A6 EX"

http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/Leo2_Pics/Leo2A6EX.jpg

most of the others look very similar to the leopard 1, which is crap.

Sure I'll try to make one... Just a warning first, I'm trying to finish up three units before the 9th so this one will come after those projects.

Origanly posted by kinboat
Sure I'll try to make one... Just a warning first, I'm trying to finish up three units before the 9th so this one will come after those projects.

Thanks kinboat ;).

Kinboat, what version of the leopard tank are you going to creat, the early version of the leopard 2, which is the one in most of the pics Civgeneral posted, or the Leopard 2A6 EX which is the one in the pic i posted. I would love to see you creat the Leopard 2A6 EX because it is the best MBT in the world (Thats not just my opinion, its been proven)

here are some more pics of the Leopard 2A6 EX

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/leopard/images/leop1.jpg

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/leopard/images/leop2.jpg

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/leopard/images/leop3.jpg

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/leopard/images/leop10.jpg

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/leopard/images/leop4.jpg

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/leopard/images/leop7.jpg

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/leopard/images/leopard2tank-14.jpg

Oh, and on a technical note, Sweden has the most advanced leopards in the leopard MBT family.

A 55 caliber 120mm has been developed and will be fitted to select Leopard's - that's a major ass gun...

Venger
P.S. Best MBT in the world? Let's wait for it to get an actual combat kill...

Well, killing lots of tanks on the battle field dosent give a tank the rating of best MBT in the world. This rating is giving to the tank after very extensive testing. just because the Leopard 2A6 EX has not seen real combat, dosent mean it cant kill when it does see action.

Don't know which version... It looks to me that the major difference is in the turret shape. I might go for the more modern looking sloped wedge shape... But all this is in the future :)

Originally posted by Civ Commando
Well, killing lots of tanks on the battle field dosent give a tank the rating of best MBT in the world. This rating is giving to the tank after very extensive testing. just because the Leopard 2A6 EX has not seen real combat, dosent mean it cant kill when it does see action.

Uh...sources please? I got sources showing direct hits from T-72 125mm guns in combat failing to penetrate on M1A2...that's a big claim on the 2A6 (though it has a sweet gun, they refuse to use DU penetrators)...

Venger

Is a 125mm gun that much better than a 120mm gun? 5mm dosent seem like it would make a huge difference.

Press Release
Contact: Gregory Fetter, Senior Weapons Analyst

Phone: (941) 637-6068

Fax: (941) 637-8959

Web site: www.forecast1.com

E-mail: greg.fetter@forecast1.com

Forecast International, Inc.

22 Commerce Rd. Newtown, CT 06470 USA



FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Forecast International Again Ranks Leopard 2 World’s Best Tank Overall



NEWTOWN, Conn., July 15, 2002 -- In its annual ranking of the world’s best tanks, Forecast International lists Germany’s Leopard 2 A6EX model as the world’s number one tank overall. A product of Krauss-Maffei Wegmann, the potent Leopard 2 has been steadily improved over the years and the latest version, the A6EX, maintains the lead.



"The Leopard 2 just edged out the United States’ M1A2 System Enhancement Package tank," said Gregory Fetter, author of the Forecast International rankings. "The deciding factor was the Leopard 2’s 55 caliber version of the Rh 120 tank gun and its DM 53 long rod penetrator ammunition," Fetter said.



However, the M1A2 Abrams tank, built by General Dynamics Land Systems, outperforms the Leopard 2 in actual combat situations. In addition, various ongoing improvements to the Abrams will further enhance its proven hunter-killer mode of fighting, according to Fetter.



Third on Forecast International’s best tank list is Japan’s Type 90, a technically sophisticated tank built by Mitsubishi Heavy Industries that draws heavily on German technology, including a 120 millimeter Rh 120 tank cannon. However, the Japanese tank does possess some features not found on the Leopard 2, such as an automatic loader and three-man crew.



Making a major advance in the 2002 tanks rankings is Israel’s new Merkava Mark IV, built by Israel Ordnance Corps. While this model has only just been officially unveiled, sufficient information has leaked regarding this latest manifestation of the unique Merkava design to rank it number four, above the French Leclerc and British Challenger 2.



The Mark IV’s main features include a further improved fire control system and an integrated active vehicle protection system. The Mark IV tank includes a further refined automatic target tracking system; the fire control suite is reportedly very flexible with a good degree of mission planning capability. The Merkava’s power-to-weight ratio is greatly improved over earlier models by the integration of the EuroPowerPack.



While unique in some ways, the latest Russian and Chinese tanks still do fare well in comparison to Western tanks, according to the report. However, survivability and reliability concerns as well as quality control issues rank these tanks at the bottom of the top ten list of world’s best tanks.


My opinion is that the Merkava is not first place for one reason and one reason only - A lot of info about it's capabilities is classified even for Forecast internetional.

Israel is known to hide every detail about it's weaponry... ;)

ok, maybe i was wrong about the Leopard 2 A6EX in a combat situation, but hey, its still one awsome MBT.

Originally posted by Civ Commando Is a 125mm gun that much better than a 120mm gun? 5mm dosent seem like it would make a huge difference.

No, not really, the point was about it's performance in combat - the M1 has taken direct combat hits from enemy tanks and has not yet been defeated a single time in combat (note fratricide has disabled some M1's).

ok, maybe i was wrong about the Leopard 2 A6EX in a combat situation, but hey, its still one awsome MBT.

Hell yes it is! Hey, the Krauts have been known to make a decent tank now and again! The 55 caliber gun, which they site as giving it the edge, is a fine gun - in fact, I believe it can be retrofit to other tanks (including the M1). In my opinion, it's overkill really - the shorter barrel with DU penetrator is as if not more effective than the 55 caliber gun - it does NOT use the DU penetrator round...

As they note - in combat, I'd also give the edge to the M1A2, especially when C&C is counted in. If I had to pick one tank to put my life on, it'd be the M1A2. However, I'd not want to be shot at by a Leopard 2A6 either! Thankfully, these weapons will not likely ever have to face each other...

Originally posted by IceBlaZe
My opinion is that the Merkava is not first place for one reason and one reason only - A lot of info about it's capabilities is classified even for Forecast internetional.

Could it be that it's not DESIGNED to be the same as the other MBT's? It's clear that Israeli design covets tank crew protection over everything - considering their experience in 1973, this is understandable, a war of attrition is the worst type for Israel. They need to keep their crews alive, even if they lose the tank. Additionally, they have designed the tank for one theatre - their homeland. It's designed to drive across the Negev, not in the Rhineland, or the Steppe, or arctic conditions. The Merkava is a perfect tank for the type of war Israel thinks she'll find herself in - but that doesn't mean she is the best overall tank in all scenarios. This is of course why I disagree with how you may be inclined to use it in Civ3, as the unit will see all combat conditions, against foes that use infinite tactics. The tank is heavily guarded against HEAT and chemical warheads - the type of crap arms that the Hezbollah have alot of. They are not designed to face the 8th Armored in the rolling forests of Europe. It's a tool that does a job, and does theirs perfectly. (they hope!)...

I really like the M60A3 refit the Isreal's did (starts with S or something) - armored skirts, angled glacis, top shelf stuff. They are going to refit the Turks M60A3's with it (forget the name). A Turkish and Israeli alliance (growing all the time) would be the most powerful presence in the middle east barring intervention from the US or Russia. It also belies the crap notion that there is some reason Muslims and Jews cannot get along - Turkey is as Muslim as they come brother...

Sorry, got geopolitical for a minute there...

Venger

Could it be that it's not DESIGNED to be the same as the other MBT's? It's clear that Israeli design covets tank crew protection over everything - considering their experience in 1973, this is understandable, a war of attrition is the worst type for Israel.


You might have a point, I can't contradict that, I just said my opinion.
And what I can't see is where the Leopard tops the Merkava.
If a tank gets a frontal hit and that hit penetrates the armor the tank is capish - Engine at front or not.
Also, the Merkava can shoot on targets while on the move and it's missiles hit the tank on the top to simulate helicopter AT weapons such as HF.
If I had the chance to see a war between a battalion of M1A2, Leopard 2A6EX and Merkava Mk. 4 maybe it would be proven that the Merkava doesn't fit other types of startegies.
But what you are saying about the incapability of the Merkava to handle Steppe is incorrect, after all in the border with Syria there can be a large amount of snow in the winter.
The Merkava was made to protect all of the borders of Israel, and that means:

Snow in the north.
Sand in the south.
Mud in the east.

The IDF is not short sighted, the Merkava really doesn't have a reason not to function well in the russian steppe, it has been tested just like the M1A2 have been tested, only it has improved chains (To handle basalt land without falling apart) and the exact same engine.



They need to keep their crews alive, even if they lose the tank. Additionally, they have designed the tank for one theatre - their homeland. It's designed to drive across the Negev, not in the Rhineland, or the Steppe, or arctic conditions. The Merkava is a perfect tank for the type of war Israel thinks she'll find herself in - but that doesn't mean she is the best overall tank in all scenarios. This is of course why I disagree with how you may be inclined to use it in Civ3, as the unit will see all combat conditions, against foes that use infinite tactics. The tank is heavily guarded against HEAT and chemical warheads - the type of crap arms that the Hezbollah have alot of. They are not designed to face the 8th Armored in the rolling forests of Europe. It's a tool that does a job, and does theirs perfectly. (they hope!)...


The Anti-HEAT chains are just an add-on, they are not something fundamentally instructed in the basics of the tank.
The Tank is just aswell protected as the M1A2 or the Leopard 2A6 against todays most modern AT weapons, and the Hizbullah does have those, and it used them with small success against the Merkava.
I read somewhere that they don't know if those AT weapons failed thanks to the Merkava, or poor PLO/Hizbullah tactics, or both :)



I really like the M60A3 refit the Isreal's did (starts with S or something) - armored skirts, angled glacis, top shelf stuff. They are going to refit the Turks M60A3's with it (forget the name). A Turkish and Israeli alliance (growing all the time) would be the most powerful presence in the middle east barring intervention from the US or Russia. It also belies the crap notion that there is some reason Muslims and Jews cannot get along - Turkey is as Muslim as they come brother...


Sabra :)

http://www.jed.simonides.org/tanks/mike/magach_series/sabra/sabra-intro.html

I love the turret on that thing - freaking choice looking! Of course, it's still just an M60A3 underneath, but man, what an upgrade...

Venger
P.S. Believe or not the French MBT has a pretty cool looking turret...and I'll give you this, the Merkava 4 with the angled side armor looks pretty sweet - whereas the M1 turret is kinda pedestrian...

I love the turret on the Sabra, looks awsome, if you dident know it you would never know that that is a M60 chassi under that turret. I heard that the Isrealies bought 1000 M60's, man the must have gotten one hell of a deal if they bought 1000.

Yup

Ok... just to let people know I've begun the model work on this... It's already a complicated model and I've only got the tracks done :) I'm trying for a very realistic looking image, most of the detail will be lost when I shrink it but the large preview shot is going to look amazing :) I might have a finished image tomorrow... Just one little comment to let you know just how complex it is... I've modeled each link in the tread, not just a generic shape around the wheels like I've done with my other tanks.

I have a simple request... I'm up late working on the model and I've come across a small problem... I need a few more pictures, specificly of the turret (top view and rear views). I've knocked together a turret that would look ok in the small scale but I'm going for a very detailed model and I'd like more views of the top and all the gear up there and at least one shot of the back (preferably the top back of the turret). If someone has some sites they could just list the address and I'll check them out.

Here's a teaser of the model... no textures yet and the body and turret aren't nearly finished. I would also like to ask everyone their opinion on color scheme... pick your favorite from the pictures others have posted in this thread.

Performance Tests:
http://www.sytzama.nl/reghuzsytz-c24.jpg
http://www.sytzama.nl/reghuzsytz-c26.jpg
http://www.sytzama.nl/reghuzsytz-c27.jpg
http://www.sytzama.nl/reghuzsytz-c28.jpg

Scale Models:
http://www.roco.com/images/r849.jpg
http://www.roco.com/images/0599.jpg
http://www.minitanks.at/minitank01/web_gal_2002/aufgeruestete_modelle/images/uebers_aufger.jpg
http://www.minitanks.at/minitank01/web_gal_2002/aufgeruestete_modelle/bilder/s10_2.jpg

Close Ups:
http://www.minitanks.at/images/mitteneu1.jpg
2-Meter-Distance shots (think I overdid it) (http://www.kithobbyist.com/AFVInteriors/fullmetal/leo2a6/leo2a6.html)

IzeBlaZe..

You shouldn't be so proud of your "Israeli wonder weapon"

I'm sure the Merkav is a perfect tank, but why should it be the best tank?

How would you describe the "best tank"

I think today every tank is desiogned for a special purpose.
e.g. you can't compare a Tank hunter with a Heavy War Tank..


It's well known that the Leopard is one of the best tanks today, that doesn't says that the merkav would'nt be good!

Thanks W.i.n.t.e.r... Those should do nicely. Do you do these models yourself or are you finding them on the internet?

Originally posted by Kinboat
Thanks W.i.n.t.e.r... Those should do nicely. Do you do these models yourself or are you finding them on the internet?

U R Welcome :)... I do models when I am back home. At the moment I am at university (and 2000 kilometers from it) so I went to the ROCO and REVELL sites to look for some pics for U...

---

I other aspects: Hey, stop arguing about Merkevas (Merk'a'vas?) over there... the Leopard II is a full fletched Main Battle Tank (MBT) while the other Bucket (avoiding mispelling it twice) is a hybrid between a medium sized tank and an APC. Both have different designs, tasks, field of operations. The reason the Leopard II is considered the World's Best MBT (!) is due to the fact that it outperforms other MBTs such as the US M1, British, French and Russian equivalents in the areas of relative Speed and Manouverability, Armour and Weaponry, as well as in terms of reliability on the (northern hemisphere) Battlefields- which accounts for most of the planet's land mass...

The "M.-tank" :p is customized to its immediate environment, purposebuilt for the role it has been designed to perform eversince the Israelies realised they needed a medium sized, versatile, customizable battle vehicle to defend themselves from Arab attacks- note that both the position of the turret (earlier versions saw the turret a bit more backwards on the tank's main body) as well as the shape of the frontal armor have been aimed at for the hilly terrain of Palestine and the Sinai (and NOT, as some people have claimed in other threads, to fight in street wars). A tank has always been a sitting duck in populated areas and will remain so since visibility and operative actions are fairly limited in such environments...

IzeBlaZe..

You shouldn't be so proud of your "Israeli wonder weapon"

I'm sure the Merkav is a perfect tank, but why should it be the best tank?

How would you describe the "best tank"

I think today every tank is desiogned for a special purpose.
e.g. you can't compare a Tank hunter with a Heavy War Tank..


It's well known that the Leopard is one of the best tanks today, that doesn't says that the merkav would'nt be good!


No tank other than the Merkava has the ability to carry additional fully armed infantry or additional ammunition, nor proven fully operational non-line-of-sight-for-the-firing-tank homing anti-helo/anti-tank weapon.

That's all I want to give the Merkava. Increased attack due to it's ability to carry ****load of additional ammunition and the ability to fire homing missiles.

A Merkava can take off a tank even if that tank is 5 KM away behind a hill, using the help of small UAV or Heli's or other Tanks who have sight even if they are farrr away.

I other aspects: Hey, stop arguing about Merkevas (Merk'a'vas?) over there... the Leopard II is a full fletched Main Battle Tank (MBT) while the other Bucket (avoiding mispelling it twice) is a hybrid between a medium sized tank and an APC. Both have different designs, tasks, field of operations. The reason the Leopard II is considered the World's Best MBT (!) is due to the fact that it outperforms other MBTs such as the US M1, British, French and Russian equivalents in the areas of relative Speed and Manouverability, Armour and Weaponry, as well as in terms of reliability on the (northern hemisphere) Battlefields- which accounts for most of the planet's land mass...

The "M.-tank" is customized to its immediate environment, purposebuilt for the role it has been designed to perform eversince the Israelies realised they needed a medium sized, versatile, customizable battlevehicle to defend themselves from Arab attacks- note that both the position of the turret (earlier versions saw the turret a bit more backwards on the tank's main body) as well as the shape of the frontal armor have been aimed at for the hilly terrain of the Palestine and Sinai (and NOT, as some people have claimed in other threads, to fight in street wars). A tank has always been a sitting duck in populated areas and will remain so since visibility and operative actions are fairly limited in such environments...


Who are you bull****ting exactly? :rolleyes:

The Merkava is no "hybrid" it is a fully sized and armored MBT!

Let's examine further:


the Leopard II is a full fletched Main Battle Tank (MBT) while the other Bucket (avoiding mispelling it twice) is a hybrid between a medium sized tank and an APC

Nonsense. The Merkava is a fully sized, 65 tons weighting, modularily armored, MBT.


Both have different designs, tasks, field of operations. The reason the Leopard II is considered the World's Best MBT (!) is due to the fact that it outperforms other MBTs such as the US M1, British, French and Russian equivalents in the areas of relative Speed

Field of operations? Yeah you are right.
The Merkava is fully operational for both Urban areas and cross country long range fighting.

As for Speed, the Merkava has a 1,500 hp engine that gives it superior speed, about the same, if not better, as the Leopard 2 and the M1A2.


and Manouverability


Nonsense. The Merkava has state-of-the-art suspensions designed to meet with one of the worlds toughest battlefields - the basalt rocks filled Golan Heights.

As a matter of fact, the Merkava tank is the only tank with the ability to fastly drive on these hard magma-made rocks without falling apart.

It is also designed to be fully operational in the snow of the Hermona and the Desert of the Negev.

Whatever you bring on it, Steppe or Mountains, it will take it.


Armour and Weaponry

The only advantage the Leopard latest model has here is the L/55 caliber Main gun.
Yet, it has no Anti Helo capable fire control, no guided missiles that require no line of sight for the firing tank and no turret protection on the above.
The Merkava is the only tank with full 360 degrees, top and above turret protection.


as well as in terms of reliability on the (northern hemisphere) Battlefields- which accounts for most of the planet's land mass...

If the Merkava can take on the Snow of the Hermon, the boulders and basalt rocks of the Golan Heights and the steaming heat of the Desert there is no reason it will perform extraordinarily well on the northern hemisphere and the European/Russian environment.

As a matter of fact, it should preform better than other tanks because It's suspensions allow it faster speeds at mountainous and cross country than other tanks.


The "M.-tank" is customized to its immediate environment

And what environment is that?
The Israeli/Syrian environment would cover for:

1. Basalt rocks, boulders
2. Snow
3. Desert
4. Steppe / Plains
6. Wasteland / Mountainous desert
7. Urban


purposebuilt for the role it has been designed to perform eversince the Israelies realised they needed a medium sized, versatile, customizable battlevehicle to defend themselves from Arab attacks

HUH?!?!? :rolleyes:
The Israelis realized that due to the small number of their population and the small number of their forces they need an Uber-tank that will give them a qualititive advantage over the Egyptians M1's or the Syrian T-72's and perhaps in the future T-90's.
Where do you get the Mid-sized crap from?
The Merkava is just as big and heavy as any other MBT.
Anyway, the Merkava is built to sustain any type of attack. From attack on the top, to attack on the back, to attack on the front to attack on the side.
From ATGW and ATGM's to Silver Cartridges supplied to Egypt by USA.


note that both the position of the turret (earlier versions saw the turret a bit more backwards on the tank's main body) as well as the shape of the frontal armor have been aimed at for the hilly terrain of the Palestine and Sinai (and NOT, as some people have claimed in other threads, to fight in street wars).

What the fudge are you talking about? :confused:

The tank is designed for everything. From Snow and basalt rocks to "urban" areas fightings, and it have proved itself on both, tests and real time.

And, for your info, the Merkava is more designed for the Golan heights than the Sinai in mind because Peace with Egypt has been achieved already.
Anyhow, it performs extraordinarily well on both.


A tank has always been a sitting duck in populated areas and will remain so since visibility and operative actions are fairly limited in such environments...

True. And the Merkava has proved itself in such.
One Merkava mk. 3 sustained 20 ATGW's when only one penetrated the (former generation) armor in a sharp angle and only killed the crew memeber with his head outside the hatch.

Anyway, look at the armour design of the Turret of the Merkava Mk. 4. It is the ONLY tank in the world with full turret protection even against missiles that strike the tank from above, and a crew member has double-defense on the hatch to avoid casualties.

The Merkava Mk. 4 is equipped with better missiles, better fire control, more advnaced sight systems than any other tanks.

The only category the Leopard has an advantage is the L/55 caliber gun, but even that can be eliminated with better firecontrol and guided long-battelfield-range (5KM) missiles that hit a tank from Above.

The weapon the Merkava uses immitates the Hellfire by hitting a tank in it's softest spot - the top.

If you have time read this article: http://knox-www.army.mil/center/ocoa/ArmorMag/mj00/3merkava00.pdf

Why do you guys keep comparing two different things- is as if you were comparing Chop Suey with Spagetti Carbonara- sure both are noodle dishes, but not even the noodles are alike... :lol:

BY telling me that it carries troops into battle what does that make it ???? Yep- and APC.... and after saying just that U keep insisting it is not a hibrid ???????? so I suggest you rethink your own Bull****!!! :confused:

I totaly agree with W.i.n.t.e.r.

The Merkava (wathever it's called) is surely a good tank, but it should be discussed in the Merkava thread!


IzeBlaZe..
Nobody called "your" tank bad, but this is a thread about the Leopard!
If you post stats where the merkav is compared with the Leopard it would fit here, but only to say "The Merkava is better, but wer are not allowed to say this because it is sooo secret" isn't realy the meaning of this thred ;)

I repeat: I'm impressed by the Merkava, but I will tell this in it's thread :cool:

BY telling me that it carries troops into battle what does that make it ???? Yep- and APC.... and after saying just that U keep insisting it is not a hibrid ???????? so I suggest you rethink your own Bull****!!!


Gah. It's not an APC!.
It's a tank given additional abilities due to the fact It's power pack sits upfront and evacuates protected space in the back.

Two more pics featuring the turret from above:
http://www.tamiya.com/english/products/35242leopard2a5_2/leopard2_2.jpg
http://www.tamiya.com/english/products/35242leopard2a5_2/leopard2_3.jpg

That's also why I said it is a 'Hibrid'- it is surely a cool feature- but if you really want sb to make one for civ3 I'd suggest you keep up the good work at your Merkava site :) (BTW the Leopard 2A6 KWS has athe first onboard friend/foe targetting system- the M1 is still based on satellite confirmation... probably its because Germany does not have comparable satellite cover :()

The best colour scheme must be the Green/Black one.

"That's also why I said it is a 'Hibrid'"

But it is not a hybrid.
Hybrid is when you take 2 things and their ideas for one thing.
That's not the Merkava.
The Merkava is just a regular MBT that was given another ability due to it's design.

Kinboat, nice job, it's looking good, I like the camo pattern with the dark green, black, and deep tan colors.

*Sigh*

I agree with Black, Green and Brown :)

---

I have taken the liberty to search for the Leopard's technical Data (which has been a bit tricky due to its numerous versions). I have made a chart with the 2A5's stats (in the same order to a table of the Merkava MK3 that appears at a link at the end of the Merkava thread). Please note that both vehicles' statistics do not comprise newest data of the latest models.

The purpose of this is simply to keep people interested in these amazing vehicles- perhaps sb might go for making an MK4 after all...

Merkava MK3 (http://www.voodoo.cz/merkava/index3.html)

Leopard 2A5
-----------
Country of Origin Germany
Date unknown: 2000-2002
Crew 4 (Cmdr, Gnr, Ldr. Dvr)
---------------------------------------------------------------
Combat Weight: 62.5 t (65.5t)
Overall Length: 7.7m
Overall Length: 9.97 (Barrel)
Overall Width: 3.55m
Overall Width: 3.74m (Chain Armor)
Overall Height: 2.79m (Turret) (2A6: 2.64m)
Max Height: 3.0 m
Ground clearance: 0.5m
Range: 500km (2A6: 550Km)
Top speed: 72 km/h (Forwards)
Cross-country Speed: 40km/h
Top speed: 31 km/h (rearwards)
Engine MTU MB 873 multi-fuel, 1600HP (Standart 48 liter 12-cyl diesel)
Vertical obstacle climb: 1.10m
Maximum width ditch: 3,00 m
Fording Depth: 2,35 m
Dive Capability: 4m
Fuel Tank: 1200L
Main Armament: 1X Rheinmetall GmbH L55 120mm stabalized smoothbore gun (5km)
Number of rounds for main gun: 42 (main ammo APFSDS)
Secondary Armament: 1X 7.62mm MG3A1 AA machine-gun
Secondary Armament: 1X 7.62mm coaxially mounted AP machine-gun
---------------------------------------------------------------
Leopard 2A6 New Features:
Spare third engine and improved anti-mine shielding
Integrated Operation and Weapon System "Führungs- und Waffensystem (IFIS)"
Friend/Foe Identification and Alarm Sensor against target Systems
Integrated or "Adaptive Climatisation"

The Krauss Maffei Wegman Leopard 2 Improved, a modified Leopard 2A5 with three tons of additional armor, primarily applied to the front and the top of the vehicle, plus a new command and control system. With an excellent fire control computer, NBC system, and many other advanced features makes this tank very sophisticated, manageable, and powerful on the battle front. The "Kampfpanzer Leopard 2A5" features and electric turret rotary device and overall KWS system enhancing turret plating by 3 additional tons front and top of the turret, as well as incresing track consistence and doubling underbody armor to increase crew protection against mines. Internal turret plating has been installed to decrease the impact of splinters. In the 2A6 version, impact and penetration level of the Main gun has been doubled through recent introduction of KE-Munition (KLE II) amunition in conjunction with a new, longer barrel (L55). Recent weapon testing with the Armies of Greece, Turky, Canada, Germany, the United States, Russia, Britain, France and Italy have shown relative superiority and preference of the Leopard 2 over performance of equivalent MBTs.

---------------------------------------------
If you speak German the Info is even better: The NEW LEOPARD 2A6 EX !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Modulare Auslegung - enorme Reserven:
Mit seiner überragenden Kampfkraft, die sich aus einer optimalen Kombination von Feuerkraft, Schutz, Mobilität und Führbarkeit ergibt, setzt der LEOPARD 2 weltweit Maßstäbe. Er hat sich bisher bei jeder Vergleichserprobung durchgesetzt. Kennzeichnend für den LEOPARD 2 ist seine modulare Auslegung bis hin auf Baugruppen- und Komponentenebene. Dies zusammen mit Leistungsreserven beispielsweise bei Laufwerk und Antrieb, erleichtert Modernisierungen und Kampfwertsteigerungen.(...)
Ausgewogener Schutz:
Sowohl Primär- als auch Sekundärschutz des Systems wurden ständig weiterentwickelt, um Besatzung und Gerät auch gegen modernste Munitionsarten zu wappnen. Ein Kampfwertsteigerungsprogramm für derzeit über 500 deutsche und niederländische LEOPARD 2 sowie die hochmodernen schwedischen und spanischen LEOPARD 2 - Versionen und zusätzliche Weiterentwicklungen im LEOPARD 2 A6 EX beweisen, daß das System bis weit ins 21. Jahrhundert jedem Vergleich gewachsen bleiben wird." http://www.kmweg.de/

Yowza! Calm down people, a tank is a tank is a tank... I don't care which is better I'm just modeling the ones I like... and until Civilization 15 comes out with a full 3D real-time actual size simulation of the earth's surface the merkava and the leopard will only be 24/16/3... nothing much more than that :)

So the general consenses is the dark green/dark brown/black color scheme right?

Here's another preview... still more work to do on the body but the treads and turret are mostly finished (no textures yet)

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH *nizzze*

Found the Bundeswehr Pattern (and some Pics of the 2A6 in its natural environment ;) with the Swedish cammo variant of greens and whites)

Hey thanks again those camo patterns will come in handy... What are the web-address's of those sites? I'd like to go and see what else they have :) I do a little modeling myself (mostly boats and now I paint fantasy figures) But I'm doing more computer modeling now :)

I dont have all of them at hand (my had to install Windows after a virus infestation a few days ago and lost my favorites in the process) the only ones I have dug out again so far is Roco (http://www.minitanks.at/) and United Fun (http://www.united-fun.com/shop/c12.html). Both Roco and Trident are makers of HIGH quality plastic models in 1/87. Unfortunaely I do not have any of the diorama pages back yet but I will let U know. Revell (http://www.revell.de/cgi-bin/kat/katalog.pl) is my favourite for larger dioramas and planes/ships, seconf only to Italieri (http://www.italeri.com/) . :)

The real tanks can be found at:
JED (http://www.jed.simonides.org/jed1.html)
Equipment (German) (http://www.fortunecity.de/wolkenkratzer/firelli/95/ausrstung.htm)
RCV (http://www.geocities.com/davesrcmodels/realtanks.htm)

The last Patern was from this site ;):

Unofficial Homepage of the Royal Swedish Army (http://www.wendel.se/rswa/index.htm)

Personally, I prefer the early version of the Leopard 2 (because I want a moder armor unit for my Spanish Civ :))...I attach a picture that I love...it's me in a Leopard 2 tank :D. If Kinboat could make too the early version (different turret), I'll be VERY VERY happy :cool:

Changing the turret shouldn't be too hard... the older version is just blockier right?

Originally posted by Kinboat
Changing the turret shouldn't be too hard... the older version is just blockier right?

But please dont scrap the modern version if U make the prior version ;)

http://www.italeri.com/Photos/243.jpg http://www.minitanks.at/minitank01/web_gal_2002/deutsche_bundesw/bilder/329klein.jpg

ps. a second, anti-personal MG should be on the gunner's postition for combat

yes, the early version is the same of CivGeneral's diagrams, and the last photos Winter posted :).
And here is a detail of the 7,62mm MG-42 of the gunner's position (photo by me :D )

Here's a version with the textures applied... I'm pretty much finished with the modeling part of it... Now for the tedious animating :) What do you people think I should change into the Civ-Specific colors?

GREAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek: I'm really impressed...how can you do this with Moray??? It's awesome!

OMG OMG OMG! *jumps up and down with joy* THAT LOOKS GREAT!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :goodjob:


As for Civ colors, how about the gunners and commanders hatches, and that round thing in the center of the gun, i dont know what its called, as civ specific colors?

Right :) looking pretty !!! I'd say that the muzzle (or whatever that blobb-shaped thing on the barrel is) and the engine covers should be civ-coloured....

just read some of the stuff up top. look the leopard from the germans is the only tank in the world that would give the abram a good fight. i've seen the t-90's take on the abrams and only put nichs in them. and at the time that happened they were surpose to be the best and newes tanks from russia.the next tank would be the Isrealies tank and then the english chieftain tank.

I try a few different spots... see what looks best in actual game scale.

Originally posted by Kinboat
What do you people think I should change into the Civ-Specific colors?

how about civ-coloured kill markings on the barrel? :cool: Or you could make the 4 upper corners of the chassis civ-specific.

Looks great!

Can't wait to download!

if you are adding some civ specific colors, I would only do a couple of small areas, I think it would be a shame to cover that awesome camo pattern you did. But either way it's going to be awesome.

Looks awesome Kinboat! Another "must have" unit!

WONDERFUL!!!!!!!
I just can't wait for this one!!!!!!!!!!! :D :D :D

:eek: Wow...Kinboat That is insane:crazyeye: u and Mirrior are top-notch tank modlers. That looks like u took it out of Operation Flashpoint:goodjob: Just a look of it makes it look intimidating, Im sure this baby can give the M1A2 a run for its money:D

Been kinda slow but I think I've decided on the final civ colors. I've put a chevron on the turret and then made the engine vents on the back of the body blue as well... My one regret is that all that beautiful detail is lost :cry: And I think this may be my last unit... I'm kinda burned out and while I still enjoy the modeling, the tedious process of animating is really dragging me down. This combined with other circumstances has led me to this decision... I may do a few more off and on when time permits but I don't know... sorry if I'm letting people down, it's been (mostly) fun.

:cry: kinboat ur to young to retire wait till PTW gets boring...we need u :king:

Originally posted by Kinboat
And I think this may be my last unit... I'm kinda burned out and while I still enjoy the modeling, the tedious process of animating is really dragging me down. This combined with other circumstances has led me to this decision... I may do a few more off and on when time permits but I don't know... sorry if I'm letting people down, it's been (mostly) fun.

While it sadens me that such amazing talent may cease so soon (I for instance downloaded MilkShape, POV-Ray, etc yesterday and almost fainted- no understanding for whatever I have to do there :() I have to say that we have also greatly abused your wonderful model spree and generousity. But who could blame us, since you really make the most wonderful units I have seen to date :goodjob: .

Tribute for the one they call KINBOAT !!!!!!!! And we all hope to meet him in the forums from time to time ;) ****** (as in 5+ stars )

Excellent work Kinboat, I'll be sorry to see you stop working. :(

We will miss your work Kinboat!

But I can understand that you can't work on such things all the time!

:goodjob: :goodjob: :goodjob: :goodjob: :goodjob: :goodjob: :goodjob: for your work!

for kinboat;
Amazing work, that Leopard puts my modeling skills to shame, Exelent standard! :)

How are you planning to do the Animation? With the firaxis moden armour the Barrel runs back in to the body to reduce recoil. With the smoke efeects remember to make sure the smoke object has no reflectiveness or refraction value. Some transparency effects model them selves on glass or water, refecting light and displacing things on the other side.

I almost wish I could stop doing Civ III units, but I'm single and out of work, So if I didn't have something to keep me ocupied I'd go insane- Once Iv'e worked through My backlog I may take a break for a while, though If I get a job first, making Civ III graphics could be a welcome break from the tedium of office work (more office work at home! what a good idea! :) ).

I'm going to try and get hold of 3d max soon, I'd love to do animating as a full time job, but when I see what can be acheived with a realy good program (mostly in the Animation area) I realise that I need more practice with a better program.

for everyone
I have agreed to make the Merkava, so the "which tank is best" argument can be confined to the battlegrounds of Civ III, It would be interesting to compare the size of the different tanks, My stepdad used to be a tank driver in the british army, and he says the Leopard II is about half the size of the equivalent British MBT, though all the british drivers whished they had the Leopard, cos it was mauch more manuverable, and with modern tanks "size isn't everything" its more an equation of gun power plus survivability minus size(cost)- a small tank with heavy hitting power and strong armour is better than a large tank with the same power. I guess this is why the next generation of tanks is going to be much smaller and armed with "smoothbore" guns firing missile type rounds.

Thanks Smoking Mirror... And everyone... As for the animations I'm really taking my time, planning to go out with a Bang! I think I've learned enough from my other units that I think I can do a really decent smoke effect with the Attack and Death... While I haven't started the Attack yet I was planning on some recoil, these are big guns after all. And in Moray there are many options when making textures, including the reflectiveness of the surface etc. so I can easily make a transparency that doesn't act like a water surface... or vice versa.

you all talked about mercava, but don't forget that twice the mercava mark 3 have been blowd up by bombs under it...

*sigh*

*bump*

originally posted by erez87
you all talked about mercava, but don't forget that twice the mercava mark 3 have been blowd up by bombs under it...

Can we please drop the subject on "whitch tank is the best". I dont want the samething happening that happened over at the Mercava thread :(. Besides, I am realy looking forward to the Leopard 2 Tank by Kinboat to be compeated :goodjob:.

yes yes then I will have a worthy tank to sucsess the Panzer and I shall rule the world mwha- mwha- mwahahhaahhahahahah!

Here's a teaser to keep everyone happy since I'm going so slow with this one... I've got the default, fortify and attack done, death and run to go... This is the attack obviously.

It looks just like the leopard! :D

:love:

Really good.
I am looking forward to the day when I can download this unit.

Another German unit!!!!!!!!!!! YES!!!!!!!!!
LOOKS AWSOME!!!!
Maybe I should ask Kinboat and Smoking Mirror to join our THIRD REICH TEAM :D

May I say that this is by far the coolest unit in this Game (including Firaxis) ?!

This rocks! better than anything Friaxis has! :eek:

Leapin Leopards batman.......GREAT!!!!!

:eek: Holy smokes this is gona be an incredible unit keep it up :goodjob:




ps. Smoking Mirror has some competition....competition is good...good for us :)

well, Kinboat says he's retiring after this :(

oh yeah :( I forgot :(

Now this is ART!
High Quality Art! To Bad we are going to lose its creator.....

For everyone who are going to play a Swedish Civ, this is the MBT of the Swedish armed forces, Strv 122. I´ve noticed that one of the pictures on page 1 shows one Lepard with the Swedish M90 camouflage.

GOOD WORK KINBOAT!!!!!!!

Great Job Kinboat :goodjob:. Keep up the good work :D.

This should demonstrate how good a tank the M1A1 is.
"During the ground war, only seven M1A1's were hit by rounds fired from the Iraqi's T-72 tanks, with none being seriously damaged. The Army reported that the Iraqi armed forces "destroyed no Abrams tanks during the Persian Gulf War."22 Nine Abrams tanks were destroyed during the war: seven due to friendly fire and two were intentionally destroyed to prevent capture after they became disabled.23 One incident in particular demonstrates the effectiveness of armor-piercing rounds and tank armor made of depleted uranium. As allied forces pushed into southern Iraq at the start of the ground war, an M1A1 tank became stuck in the mud.

The unit (part of the 24th Infantry Division) had gone on, leaving this tank to wait for a recovery vehicle. Three T-72's appeared and attacked. The first fired from under 1,000 meters, scoring a hit with a shaped-charge (high explosive) round on the M1A1's frontal armor. The hit did no damage. The M1A1 fired a 120mm armor-piercing (DU) round that penetrated the T-72 turret, causing an explosion that blew the turret into the air. The second T-72 fired another shaped-charge round, hit the frontal armor, and did no damage. The T-72 turned to run, and took a 120mm round in the engine compartment (which) blew the engine into the air. The last T-72 fired a solid shot (sabot) round from 400 meters. This left a groove in the M1A1's frontal armor and bounced off. The T-72 then backed up behind a sand berm and was completely concealed from view. The M1A1 depressed its gun and put a (DU) sabot round through the berm, into the T-72, causing an explosion.24"
The entire report may be found at www.iacenter.org/depleted/fahey.htm

The M1A2 is even better and it has what the U.S. Army calls a Thermal Management System. That's right, an air conditioner. Go to
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m1.htm for all the details.

Comments:


Well first of all, thank you for this pretty good piece of writing. What I don't really get (perhaps I missed it?) is why you R sending in M1 stuff on the Leo 2 thread. Good and usefull information anyways.

--

It is a bit unfair comparing the technological rafinesse of US and Iraqui armies. Besides, the T-72 was to be discarded from service with the Soviet army in the late 1980s, only due to economic and later political crisis this did not happen.

Also the ammunition used by Irak sems to be non-comparable to Western ammunition (besides this was the time the US introduced depleted uranium shell ammo- the iraki dessert is highly polluted with radioactive material to date).

---

Lastly: "Seven out of nine due to friendly fire" Argl.- so that's how GPS targeting systems work. Seriously, the americans lost more assets and personell before the war started than in it due to enemy fire. But that does not say anything about this tank's performance in relation to other armored Main Battle Tank vehicles at all. Of course the M1 is a formidable tank, but it was designed to meet challenges from Soviet build and equipped T-80s and following T-90s with high quality ammunition, targeting systems, sattelite uplink, etc... :)

yeah I think The M1A1 was nice but not even the M1A2 outperforms (overall) the Lepord 2. It is king MBT by a slight margin. Whether the Germans will extend the margin or whether the Americans narrow the gap or even leap ahead will be a developent in the evolution of the tank. Lets just hope it wont become so lethal that a sniper tank will emerge... (even though I think were really close to that)

Anyways, lets not go for this "bigger, better, faster, more-than-another" scheme.

Actually today a UK report revealed that in Operation Desert Storm and Desert Fox one fifth on British casualties have been inflicted by AMERICAN friendly fire rather than by Iraki. What I jokingly said about the US targeting system (or perhaps they were merely trigger-happy, as the BBC claimed) proves to be one of the most severe issues in reality.

The media is blocking all attempts to voice British support ans/or participation in US strikes against Bagdad by claiming that US weaponry and British systems have "virtually not improved" in Safety or Accuracy (21/08/2002)

---

I therefore find German projects of incorporating an in-vehicle friend-foe targeting device instead of merely GPS targeting a significant PLUS for the LEO 2A6 EX

W.i.n.t.e.r
I have completed the death and have the zip file ready to launch :D
I have also adjusted the boots sound! :yeah:
It's perfect! :goodjob:
The fortify has the Leibstandarte SS say Actung while "clapping boots" :D (or i have included also just clapping ;) )
The victory will be the Parade sound :) (I of course reduced it)
I used the microsoft sound recorder.
I have also made the units_32 pcx using Captan's nemo WW II graphics.
THIS UNIT IS :cooool: !!!!!
Great work buddy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :goodjob:

Another teaser for you all... Ain't I just a stinker :) This is the run... I made the civ colors red in this one just so they stand out more and you can tell exactly where they are... The blue doesn't contrast so well with the camo pattern. Just yell at me to finish this up when you get tired of all the previews :) I really only have the death and maybe a fidget to do... And then the sounds. I can probably get together a decent sound pack together but if anyone out there has sounds they think would go well (like the sound of the actual tank engine) feel free to post them in the sounds thread and I'll check them out.

Just AWSOME!!!!!!!!! HIGH QUALITY WORK!!!!!!!!! I like this Run animation :goodjob: . My personal compliments. :yeah: !
(I have just noticed that I posted a note for Winter on the wrong thread before, oops sorry Kinboat :p )

That's ok... I did wonder a bit when I read it :) but it's no problem really... I'm glad you like the animation.

Originally posted by Kinboat
Just yell at me to finish this up when you get tired of all the previews :)

HURRY UP AND FINISH THIS UNIT! :D

BTW, You are definitely going out with style. The previews excite me in a disturbing, unhealthy sort of way ;)

Looks incredibile Kinboat!

Kinboat,
how many frames does the Leopard animations contains?

/OmniMower

The attack has 18 frames... the run has 9... The default is only 5 or 6... I have a small fortify animation that is 5 or 6 and i don't have the death done so I don't know yet :)

Kinboat,
Thanks..... is there any limit of how many frames a animation can contain.... or can you simple set the speed of the frames? I know this is OT here but its my final Q !

/OmniMower

I think in the Flicster program the limit is 64... My own photo editing program seems to create problems if I'm editing a file of more than about 20 (depending on the size of the frame) I don't know if there is any limit in the Civ3 program.

Thanks Kinboat,
I most say... we are losing one of our best creators... I hope yuo can find time in the fufure to get back to us.... I´ve been a working with Computer Graphix 8 years but the only thing I can do is 3D models....the animation thing is .... well I ´ll try ..hehe... GOOD LUCK KINBOAT!

Exelent work kinboat, you are putting my work to shame :)

Praise from the Tank King... Now I know it's good :) Thanks.

Kinboat,

Its a real shame that you are contemplating taking a sebaticle from the unit creation biz. :( Might I suggest a possible alternative? Since you say its the animation process that really get you down, why not find someone to work with you on these projects. We can all agree that your modeling work is superior to most (don't want to burn any bridges ;)) on these forums, and it would be a shame to lose your creative prowess. I am sure there are others who would be more than willing to learn how to animate your completed models. It would become somewhat of an assembly line process that could produce high quality units at a faster pace. I would think that if you posted a request for an animator for your models you would get numerous responses, from which you could pick the one youfelt would do your models the greatest justice.

Anyway, just a thought. Hope you consider it.

I suppose thats a possibility... Except that they'd need to know how to use Moray just as well as I can and then they could just make their own units... Maybe I'll do a few models and then post them somewhere to see if anyone wants to use them... I'll have to think about it.

Maybe it's just me but my last post sounds sarcastic... It's not meant to be... Really it's not.

Thats an excellent Idea im sure there are going to be people wanting to help kinboat if he decides to go in this path

Ok... just to update anyone still checking this thread... I have the Death animation done in one direction... it's 22 frames so that means I only have 154 more renders to do... and then the sounds. Barring any accidents I should be able to post it sometime tomorrow late afternoon to evening. Let the Celebrating begin... (gee I'm not getting a big head or anything :) )

dude can't wait!

How long will dat take Kinboat

I meant to post a message here when I released it... it's finished and posted in the units forum...