How would the world be right now, Would the US still exist, just less powerful, would Britain have made Peace with Germany and Germany turned its sights elsewhere, like fully conquering Russia
Whats your thoughts

I think we would be living in a technologically advanced world, with Aero Flight/Space technology, possiblee cheap space travel, colonies on the moon by now, and the common man traveling in space
Why do I say these things? Evidence suggest the Germans where developing secret Aero Flight/Space Technology in their secret labs that today, we are just starting to get these technologies
What the Nazis Developed however, has been lost forever
The places these technologies where housed where demolished before the Nazis lost the war, and today are behind a layer of stones that we can't get behind

Though we may very well be living under a dictatorship, or maybe not, as Hitler would be dead by now and maybe a rebellion may have started

You would need to explain exactly what they did to win. Without that, it's impossible to discuss what the world would have been like.

And they were only developing those weapons to stop the Allies, just as the Allies were working on their own super weapons. As soon as the war ended, the German program would have stopped just as suddenly as the Allied one did. Without a competitor, there's no reason to compete. Moreover, what the Nazi's developed was not lost at all. Most German scientists fled west, fearing the Soviets, and later became key members of the Western Space Programs, Aeronautics, and other R&D programs.

Umm if they didn't win..why should I discuss what they did to win? they could have done anything and it could have turned out anyway..im just asking what if they won the war overall

You would need to explain exactly what they did to win. Without that, it's impossible to discuss what the world would have been like.

And they were only developing those weapons to stop the Allies, just as the Allies were working on their own super weapons. As soon as the war ended, the German program would have stopped just as suddenly as the Allied one did. Without a competitor, there's no reason to compete. Moreover, what the Nazi's developed was not lost at all. Most German scientists fled west, fearing the Soviets, and later became key members of the Western Space Programs, Aeronautics, and other R&D programs.

I know where a lot of the scientist ended up at..in the US working for programs here in the US
But yes, it was lost:) the secrets of the technologies at least

Nuclear War.

The Nazi Regime would not understand the concept of mutually assured destruction, or if they did they would embrace it. Much like some hardline anti-Communists pushed for nuclear war in the belief that, despite all the casualties, it'd mean the end of communism. The different is that instead of being a fringe of American politics, nutcases like that were the decision-makers of the Third Reich.

If they won, I wouldn't exist. end of story

Umm if they didn't win..why should I discuss what they did to win? they could have done anything and it could have turned out anyway..im just asking what if they won the war overall
The way in which the Nazis and the Fascists won the war impacts the shape of the world later. For example (just one of such examples), did they win by not fighting the Soviet Union? In that case (an unlikely case but a case nonetheless), they would have to worry about that Power as well as their other foes in the postwar world. If they managed to defeat said USSR, then Germany would have to deal with an unending partisan conflict all over European Russia, draining her resources and acting as a Vietnam or Afghanistan.

The way in which the Nazis and the Fascists won the war impacts the shape of the world later. For example (just one of such examples), did they win by not fighting the Soviet Union? In that case (an unlikely case but a case nonetheless), they would have to worry about that Power as well as their other foes in the postwar world. If they managed to defeat said USSR, then Germany would have to deal with an unending partisan conflict all over European Russia, draining her resources and acting as a Vietnam or Afghanistan.

The Nazis had option the US didn't in Vietnam. They didn't have public opinion to worry about and they could have easily purged everyone in any area in revolt.

The Nazis had option the US didn't in Vietnam. They didn't have public opinion to worry about and they could have easily purged everyone in any area in revolt.
It took Hitler four years - okay, maybe three if you really want to be picky - to kill six million noncombatants. The area indicated by him as ideal for his satellite state of 'Muscovy' contains well over a hundred of those millions. It would take a long time to purge that place of resistance. Besides, Hitler's still not finished with the Jews or the gays or the gypsies, etc.

It took Hitler four years - okay, maybe three if you really want to be picky - to kill six million noncombatants. The area indicated by him as ideal for his satellite state of 'Muscovy' contains well over a hundred of those millions. It would take a long time to purge that place of resistance. Besides, Hitler's still not finished with the Jews or the gays or the gypsies, etc.

Thats only if you need to ship them somewhere. If you've got the territories taken over and more or less pacified you can just as easyily starve the people to death, or have some % of the population support you and kill the reast. Stalin strvingthe Ukraine, or Mao in China would be examples. The Nazis wanted to hide what happened to the Jews. If they won they wouldn't need to hide anything. The population wouldn't have been slaughtered wholesale anyway- as few would have been kept around.

Poland lost 1/3 of its population in 6 years. Give the Nazis a decade or 2 and they could have killed a huge chunk of people in the occupied territories if they were hellbent on killing them all.

Thats only if you need to ship them somewhere. If you've got the territories taken over and more or less pacified you can just as easyily starve the people to death, or have some % of the population support you and kill the reast. Stalin strvingthe Ukraine, or Mao in China would be examples. The Nazis wanted to hide what happened to the Jews. If they won they wouldn't need to hide anything. The population wouldn't have been slaughtered wholesale anyway- as few would have been kept around.

Poland lost 1/3 of its population in 6 years. Give the Nazis a decade or 2 and they could have killed a huge chunk of people in the occupied territories if they were hellbent on killing them all.
Mmmmaybe. That's kind of predicated on the lack of existence of an outside threat to disrupt things. Again, one needs to know how the events of the war turned out to be able to even reasonably guess at the state of the postwar world.

Once the United States got into the war Germany, Japan, and Italy stood no chance whatsoever. The only chance they had was not to provoke the United States. Neither the U.S. nor the U.K. would have ever given up the fight.

Germany should have destroyed the British Army at Dunkirk and ended fighting on the western front at that time. Then, Germany should have consolidated its gains and continued build-up of forces. The invasion of the Soviet Union should have started a few months earlier. The "final solution" should also not have proceeded until the end of the war. It consumed massive amounts of resources and troops to run the camps. These troops would have been better used in combat, not execution.

Japan sealed its own fate by attacking the U.S. in early December 1941. It might have been able to step lightly and attack European interests in the region, without provoking the United States too quickly.

Italy more or less blew it when they lost their fleet at Taranto and through all of the troubles in the Balkans and Africa. I think that Italy's fate was tied too closely to Germany's and the entry of the U.S. into the war.

The man in the high castle

Germany established a Greater Germany during the war (pre-war Germany, Austria, Czech part of Czechoslovakia, Poland except for Polesie, Wilno and Nowogrodek voivodships). This was supposed to become fully German I guess, but a Protectorate of Czechia and Moravia was established in the majorly czech parts of modern Czech Rp, and General Gouverment was established in small part of Poland. Germans already started taking millions of people, mostly Poles, for slave labours in Germany, while expulsing Poles to General Gouverment as well and settling lands directly annexed to the Reich by Germans. But there were settlings of Germans in General Gouverment as well (Zamosc area). So all this would continue, as well as other actions. Therefore, I predict:
- an action of stealing blue-eyed blond-haired children would accelerate (already 200-300 000 were stolen during the war from Poland only).
- the action of exterminating polish intellectuals and reducing Poles to uneducated worker mass would succeed
- sooner of later General Gouverment and the Protectorate would be annexed directly to the reich. I don't know about the Czechs, but Poles would be all signed as Germans (volksliste), or moved as a slave labour, or starved, or executed. In 25 years or less, land up till Bug river would be clearly german.
I suspect in the Protectorate and in some areas of France the same would happen, but much less brutal ways would be used - the French would probably be expelled to nominally-independant France.
I don't know if Hitler stopped at that, and what would he do with eastern nations. I believe it depends if Hitler won in 1941, or if Stalingrad had happened, but the tide turned later already. Baltic States were place of old german colonisation, but Hitler resettled Germans from there to Poland, and Latvians, to a lesser extent Estonians and Lithuanians, collaborated with Germany. So they might actually remain nominally independant. Belarus is a very tricky question. A land without any elites but polish and jewish. Both polish and jewish were unsupportable for Hitler. But Belarussians are blonde, blue-eyed and most didn't care what nationality they are, so Belarus may easily have ended up being German. Ukraine is another question. It is too big and has too good soil to be left with a big autonomy. Yet, Ukrainians in the western part collaborated with Germany and happily slaughtered Poles there. I suspect a puppet state, but with much tighter control from Berlin. Russia would probably be divided and kept in even tighter control, and some of it turned into a direct german control - Siberia.
Caucasus would be "liberated" by Germany, and I guess its nations would welcome Germany with opened hands. The same with Central Asia.
Some french colonies would be given to Germany. British I doubt, unless Hitler would succeed in conquering Britain itself.

alot of things would happen... seeing as I doubt Japan or Germany would want the other to live.... eventually, they'd fight (if they even did conquer the world before then)

at that point, other smaller nations would've risen up, and joined one side, then wiped out the other...

that's my opinion...

I think today, there would just be alot less separation by nation that there is...

Hopefully germany would protect new zealand from the japenes.

The man in the high castle

Great book, but I'm not sure Dick wrote it as a plausible WW2 alternate history, just as a the backdrop for an awesome story.

Evidence suggest the Germans where developing secret Aero Flight/Space Technology in their secret labs

Like this? Sanger 'Amerika Bomber' (http://www.luft46.com/misc/sanger.html)

I predict another world war, within 15 years of WW2 ending.

I predict another world war, within 15 years of WW2 ending.

only?

10 chars

Like this? Sanger 'Amerika Bomber' (http://www.luft46.com/misc/sanger.html)

You really have to marvel at the variety of projects the Nazis and their scientists came up with that would have little practical effect on the course of the war. I suppose we should be grateful really, had they put more resources into weapons that were practical, or improving on things that did work the war would have gone on longer.

You really have to marvel at the variety of projects the Nazis and their scientists came up with that would have little practical effect on the course of the war. I suppose we should be grateful really, had they put more resources into weapons that were practical, or improving on things that did work the war would have gone on longer.


Any Axis bomber would have had a terrible morale effect on the americans. maybe making them more cautious about more actions. I think the Germans were the most advanced nation in WWII.:cool:

Any Axis bomber would have had a terrible morale effect on the americans. maybe making them more cautious about more actions. I think the Germans were the most advanced nation in WWII.:cool:

Alot of these ideas were pipe dreams and often were little more than artists impression.

Its almost as if the USA was defeated and pictures of Imperial Star Destroyers (from Star Wars) were found. 60 years later it would be like "OMG the USA was so far ahead of their time"

The Germans were probably only a year at most ahead of the Allies in certain areas.

Any Axis bomber would have had a terrible morale effect on the americans. maybe making them more cautious about more actions.

The plane had to be launched from a two mile railtrack in Germany and could only drop a single 8,000lb bomb before landing somewhere in the Japanese Pacific. Presumably if the Germans wanted it back again they'd have to persuade the Japanese to pour resources into building a similar railtrack in order to send it back on its way. If they couldn't do this they'd have to use them as a one-off weapon which considering the likely outlay on one of these planes seems ridiculous (but not beyond the twisted logic of someone like Hitler).

All of that to drop a single 8,000lb bomb. To put that in perspective for a moment the Lancaster could take about 14,000lb and sometimes higher depending on what types of bombs. The RAF's bomber command pounded Germany by night, the USAAF by day with so many planes as to make one 8,000lb raid seem like a leaflet drop in comparison. For years the allies didn't manage to undermine German morale sufficiently, why do you presume that American morale was so flaky that such an effort would have any more success? As for more cautious if anything raids on civilian targets only tended to make the target country more angry and likely to respond in kind.

. I think the Germans were the most advanced nation in WWII.

In some areas they had the drop on Allied science, in others we had the drop on them.

Any Axis bomber would have had a terrible morale effect on the americans. maybe making them more cautious about more actions. I think the Germans were the most advanced nation in WWII.:cool:

The Germans were never serious about developing an intercontinental bomber. They never even took the concept of a strategic bomber seriously.

The US on the other hand was actively working on bombers that could strike from the American continent and had a functional prototype by 1946 and not just drawings of one.

The American bomber research was financed because Nazis wanted world domination, they thought England was doomed as well as North Africa and Russia, Japan was to take Asia and then Germany and Japan would share an invasion of America, its that simple.

The American bomber research was financed because Nazis wanted world domination, they thought England was doomed as well as North Africa and Russia, Japan was to take Asia and then Germany and Japan would share an invasion of America, its that simple.

Perhaps with some Amerika bombers but this one began life in the late 30s and was cancelled in 1941. Your explanation suggests more a bomber begun in 1940 and wouldn't have been cancelled in favour of existing designs soon after Barbarossa.

The Germans were never serious about developing an intercontinental bomber. They never even took the concept of a strategic bomber seriously.

Depending on your definition of serious I disagree with that. Although most of their "Amerika" projects were cancelled this was largely due to either a lack of resources or lack of access to the Atlantic coastline rather than lack of interest. The resources ploughed into the various Amerika bomber projects at least shows interest in the idea, two projects actually produced prototypes after all (the Ju290 and Me264).

On a side note I think the principle difference between the Allied and Nazi war developments was that both came up with some ingenious advances (albeit in mostly different fields), but the Allies tended to come up with more practical things capable of helping win the war. Developing the type XXI U-Boat was a leap ahead in submarine design but AFAIK they didn't sink a single allied ship by the end of the war. The V1 and V2 weapons were steps on the road towards space technology but their military effectiveness was minimal. That Amerika bomber design might have helped post-war space ideas but wasn't going to change the course of the war in the slightest.

Cracking Enigma, developing specialist ships and tanks or building the Atom Bomb may not have been anywhere near as "cool" as the Nazi projects but they worked and had a tangible impact on the course of the war.

A good way of illustrating this is that the Nazis came up with the idea of the V-3, a supergun designed to bombard London from near the French entrance to the Channel Tunnel. When the British got wind of what the Germans were up to they promptly smashed the gun site to pieces with a "secret" weapon that did work - the tallboy bomb.

Which isn't to say that the allies never came up with some duds during WW2 because they did, but at least the allies could usually afford to fritter away their resources on unusual projects, the Germans couldn't.

The plane had to be launched from a two mile railtrack in Germany and could only drop a single 8,000lb bomb before landing somewhere in the Japanese Pacific. Presumably if the Germans wanted it back again they'd have to persuade the Japanese to pour resources into building a similar railtrack in order to send it back on its way. If they couldn't do this they'd have to use them as a one-off weapon which considering the likely outlay on one of these planes seems ridiculous (but not beyond the twisted logic of someone like Hitler).

All of that to drop a single 8,000lb bomb. To put that in perspective for a moment the Lancaster could take about 14,000lb and sometimes higher depending on what types of bombs. The RAF's bomber command pounded Germany by night, the USAAF by day with so many planes as to make one 8,000lb raid seem like a leaflet drop in comparison. For years the allies didn't manage to undermine German morale sufficiently, why do you presume that American morale was so flaky that such an effort would have any more success? As for more cautious if anything raids on civilian targets only tended to make the target country more angry and likely to respond in kind.



In some areas they had the drop on Allied science, in others we had the drop on them.


The Germans did NOT like the idea of Kamikazes:crazyeye:

The Germans did NOT like the idea of Kamikazes

All the more reason for anyone with any sense to decide that that design was impractical during the wartime conditions it would have operated in. I guess even Hitler and Goering had limits to how far they'd persue pointless designs

Most World War II what ifs end in the same way - Hitler has fun in Russia, Africa, etc., but in August 1945 the atomic bomb is detonated over Berlin. The war is over.

The Germans did NOT like the idea of Kamikazes:crazyeye:
Yeah, but they built the He 162 Volksjäger...go figure, right?

There were occasions of organized German kamikaze attacks during the last days of the Luftwaffe

Hitler's visions would have more or less come true.

Also, the war between Germany and the USA that he predicted would happen in the 1980's would happen and probably be nuclear.

Obviously, both sides would be decimated and nobody would be happy.

Actually not all of the German scientists were able to flee to the West. The Soviets and the America were not just racing for territory but aswell all the German scientists that had worked on the V2 rockets. Which explains the Sputnik sattelite program.

But I would think that Japan would not try to make land gains in the U.S. So they would be the "Enemy" they needed to use "Super Weapons" against. Technologically though a human being would probably in space much faster. My guess is based on how advanced the Germans were before they were "destroyed" because of their V2 rockets and their possible ballistic missle program. Maybe about 10 to 15 years ahead of time in the field of space travel but thats just about all.

A thread similar to this would be made saying: What if United Kindom, France and Poland won WW2 would be my bet.

well thats an easy one.

If france had mobilized and sent her troops across the border within the first week of war declared she would have met next to no opposition, the majority of the german army and airforce were still engaged in poland.
Hitler too a hugh gamble with poland, in some ways it failed (UK\France declared wars) in others it paid off (UK\France did not attack whilst he was busy in poland).

Makes you think that the war could really have been over by christmas 1939.

As Matilda and Char B1's flood across the Rhine into germany's industrial heartland, the main part of his army still engaged in poland and the paltry numbers of defenders in the west being brushed aside. The luftwaffe inflicts some damage and is able to maintain partial air suppiriority (sp), but being more concerened with striking allied ground forces leaves most allied air bases unmolested.

Hitler would be brought to the negotiating table, possibly toppled by a coup from the Army for repeating the humiliation of 1918.
Japan, with no European War to distract the colonial powers in Asia is forced to abandon any plans on attacking the european colonies, although an upshoot is that Nationalist China is left without the support she would receieve in real life. Operations in China would bog down japan for decades to come.
The USSR, seeing the german situation rapidly collapse leaves off invading poland for fear of the Allies continuing through there inexoreable advance through a chaotic germany into Russia, Stalin knows when he is on the losing side and wisely decides to continue with the modernization of the Soviet Union's economy.

The British Empire, altough suffering from the sudden drain in capital is not critically wounded, Britain still has the money, the will and the power to maintain her Empire. The myth of invincibility of the colonial powers in Asia is maintained and the many young men from the colonies who would have fought for King and Empire in a longer conflict remain at home, unpoliticisised. Dreams of independence circulate in small groups in the educated elites of various colonies but Oxofrd and Cambrdge graduates in 1938 can expect to still the in the Colonial Civil Service into the 80's and 90's.
The Empire will remain a mainstay in world affairs for decades longer with the Commonwealth of Nations that suceeds it taking the form of a World Wide mutual defence and Trade block.


thats it for now folks!

The more one reads on the subject, the more convinced one becomes that the Axis didn't have a hope in hell of winning a sustainable strategic victory against the Allies.

0. The Allied nations' economic and industrial capacity massively dwarfed that of the Axis. This point is so important that I labeled it 0.

1. German superweapons were largely mythical. Yes, they undertook a bewildering amount of R&D projects, but most of these never led to anything practical and were if anything a waste of manpower and resources (which Germany didn't really have to spare, the only combatant really equipped to do massive superweapon R&D projects was the USA, which is why they ended up with nukes by 1945 and nobody else did). They had a few edges in a few areas for a while, but not enough to make a difference on the strategic scale.

2. The legendary Nazi efficiency was also just that: A legend. Their system of administration was an incoherent mess of Biblical proportions, and intentionally designed that way so as to prevent any possible challenger to Hitler's power. When you find yourself with over 40 different competing "guided missile" R&D projects and at least one of those is run by the freaking postal service, something just isn't right. Also, they really really sucked at running an empire (took them less than a year to turn all those anti-Stalin Ukranians who'd initially been thrilled at the invasion into anti-German partisans; they were even managing to alienate "Greater Germans" in occupied territories). All of which also equates to a lot of waste and suboptimal utilization of resources (which they couldn't afford if they were to win).

3. Fighting against the USA, in particular, was complete and utter suicide. The USA was self-sufficient with vast resources, deep manpower reserves, a mainland territory well out of reach of any effective attack, and the world's second-best navy at the start of the war. Japan was quite boned after Pearl Harbor and Germany didn't have a realistic hope of avoiding war with the USA even if they hadn't declared war right then (their naval forces were already skirmishing in the Atlantic due to U-boat raids on shipping).

4. Germany's war against the USSR was probably not winnable, even without a western front to keep forces tied down. Even if they'd somehow taken Moscow, Stalingrad and Leningrad, that still leaves a huge industrial power in the Urals and beyond. They'd also have to deal with vast tracts of occupied land filled with partisans, the logistics of occupation and administration becoming harder the further away from Berlin the front was pushed.

5. Germany's war against the UK wasn't really winnable either, at least not in a useful timeframe. They had absolutely no way of invading across the Channel, and the main effect of the air attacks was to harden the UK's resolve. If they'd really poured resources into the U-boat campaign they might eventually have starved the Home Isles into a state where an armistice could be negotiated, but it would take years, and prolonged unrestrained submarine warfare would as previously mentioned almost certainly bring the USA into the war with predictable long-term results.