Hi all,

the format of this thread is principally based on the imo highly successful immortal students threads started by silverbullet ,i for one while i could cope with immortal reasonably well before have learned a lot by watching great players like Rusten and sometimes BurN/Usun/Abigcivfan particpating. But i also learned things from for instance silverbullet himself about espionage use though i haven't used this knowledge too much till now. So i still get stolen blind especially on deity in the space race. I also remember an early rush by i think it was sleepless with persian immortals where i thought wow this is great play on this map very well timed, i also rushed that game in the end with the immortals on that map but while it worked it out i was a bit late and it wasn't a huge game. Generally i also learned that for instance currency and sailing are far more important than i thought before and that Col might be a bit overrated.

In the end though while i still find playing on immortal interesting and i certainly continue playing games silver'll offer it's been long since i lost a game on this level and for me the ultimate challenge has become winning regularly on the highest level the game has to offer, deity.

On and off there've been threads discussing strats on this level but in the end with few exceptions it's always the same players performing there.I can certainly understand that, i've put off playing on deity myself for rather a long time playing for more convincing immortal wins instead because a deity
game can be very unsatisfying, you play well and build up well and invest time into the game, just to get rushed in for instance 1000 bc when no diplo can ever be in place.

So to attract more people to try deity out i'll post a start which i think is at least playable.

My idea is to continue this sort of thread just as the immortal student threads are continuing. If there's enough interest to do these things in the first place we can always discuss if i play starts out to a point where i think they're at least playable (as i did here) or if we take a format where we just go random and play but have to take early defeat in our stride.

Anyway here's our start, we'll play Hatsepsut from Egypt, she may well be the strongest leader for this level and she hasn't been picked up random, next leaders will be however if we'll continue.While i'd certainly prefer things like financial or philosophical on lower levels these traits might well be the strongest on deity:

- since prime concern is not to get rushed early (and also later) you'll want to make the most of diplo meaning you'll want to constantly switch in and out of civics/religions according to the political situations, spiritual lets you do this.

- Creative is very strong on deity too, these guys expand like mad and you often have to block with culture very early or they squeeze in.Creative helps immensely in this respect.

UB from egypt the obelisk is just plain worthless for my style of playing (but maybe not yours), the UU comes in very handy though, not for rushing which generally isn't a good idea on this level but often the barbs are also strong on these maps forming multiple settlements, war chariots are pretty good at taking out these settlements at relatively low cost.

I played this start to 500 BC, didn't use a regen (hard to believe as it may seem), it's the best food capital i've ever seen which obviously helps a lot. Still having played until 500 bc i don't think the game is easy but playable and enjoyable at least.

In the end just as in the immortal student thread the idea is to report in some detail about the games played and to discuss strats.At least i pledge that i won't abandon this thread and answer questions as far as i can and raise some questions myself.

Here's your start, have fun.

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s256/dirk1302/I-suggest-you-settle-in-place.jpg

I suggest you settle in place.

Thank you Dirk,
I was just thinking whether I should start a new immortal universtiy thread or start a deity one. I am no way near to winning every immortal game, but I do feel more confident to at least try (and probably lose) deity.

I will give it a go.

Immortal university on deity, now that's something.
I'm also in the situation of winning 95% of my immortal games (after 3.17 and no barb events, et least :D), but I still suck at deity. I hope I'll learn something from those games and be able to improve my deity play.

This start also looks very nice and Hatsepsut is really my favorite deity leader, too.
I don't have much time ATM because of some RL stuff, but I hope I'll find few hours to play this game.

That's quite alright qwertz, i don't intend to rush along either. In fact i won't have time to post a report today so that'll be tomorrow probably until 500 bc.

Nice to see you giving this one a go silverbullet :goodjob:.

tried, got lib. 540 ad, got 8 very good cities(land is... superb to say the least), got a beating in the 1st war - this speed kills me :p

got a beating as in took 20 turns to take my western neighbour who had only 5 cities(who plays, knows). The eastern(or more like south eastern as I managed to block him) neighbour with 15 cities would probably take the rest of the game :p

went ah, mine, bw while getting 2 workers, settled 1s of gold, then went deep south east and settled s of the bronze between the elephants which kinda sealed zara.

unfortunatelly the whole write up got screwed when the computer stucked - who said machines don't have conservation instincts. Stucked after running 6 months non stop just when my wife bumped in :p

Glad you joined in Snowlywhite :goodjob:.

@All, please put all comments regarding this game in spoiler tags, i know the comments in the post above about numbers of cities don't spoil much but it might give a bit away about placement. General strategy not specifically related to this game doesn't have to be in tags of course.

If readers don't mind reading my long post, I intend to post a VERY detailed walkthrough, since I am certain I will make a lot of mistakes and I want the kind viewers to point them to me.
I will start with a summary of the turn (for those who don't want to read all the details), going into detail of each turn afterwards.

Up to 2520 BC


Summary:
Techs:AH->mining->BW->fishing.
Build: worker->warrior->warrior->worker->war chariot
Met darius, connected horses.

Turn 0: Settle in place, research AH, worker.Warrior scouts north.
Turn 3: map is revealed by hut. Map reveals another hut. Sending warrior there.
Turn 5: We meet Darius (scout from west), there shall be peace in our time at least for the next 3000 years I hope.
Turn 14: Darius stole our hut :(. AH is in, revealing horse in the 3rd ring of Thebes. This means I don't need archery, so research mining and BW.
I delay fishing because Thebes will be in a bad need of hammers soon and I don't want to spend time on workboats now.current 2 food resources are enough to grow to happy cap now.

Turn 15 worker->Warrior I will send the worker to pasture first.
Turn 20 my warrior dies to an archer after finding the persian border.
my woker builds a road to horses after finishing the pastures, and thebes builds anothe warrior for now.
Turn 28 - Thebes finishes warrior and switches to worker at size 3 (7 turns). After that it builds a war chariot.

Turn 37 - BW is done, switch to fishing.

This is a good place to stop. I hope I haven't lost the game already by sub-optimal choices :)


My glorious capital:

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk162/silverbullet_sz/hatty/Civ4ScreenShot0016.jpg


My explored land:
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk162/silverbullet_sz/hatty/Civ4ScreenShot0015.jpg
It is not visible here, but there is already a blue spot 1W of the wheat - Darius will get the wheat with his 1st border pop. If I want to get the wheat for a gold-horse-wheat city I better settle there first. The disadvantage of that is I am not blocking much.

My plan is to build another war chariot while growing to happy cap and then mass building settlers and workers. I have the 3 marked spots in mind, but I am not sure which one should be settled first.

My workers will first chop the hills and then mine them.
I also need better scouting.
I am detailing all these choices here because I feel these are the places where I have teh most difficulty on Deity.
You help is appreciated.

@silverbullet

You're doing fine, a bit similar to my start but better. i also built a second worker once i found the horses. Good thinking on going mining directly, when i started this game i wasn't intending to open this thread, i tend to play deity starts rather quickly so i don't lose lots of time when i get rushed around 1000 ad. So i routinely started fishing, then mining and where you have bw right now i still have 5 turns to go. You also got some more scouting done than i did, i couldn't see the wheat on my left for instance or the good spots in the east.

If i were you I'd exploit this advantage, grow the capital to 4 and start a settler , whip it at the last moment for 2 pop and get your war first chariot for free, this capital'll grow back to 4 in no time and basically only the improved tiles really count and you keep on working them. Keep in mind that barbarians start to invade borders +/-2300 bc on deity, i can't see where your warriors are posted but if you have some fogbusting up you'll be safe a bit longer. Anyway if building a settler first makes you nervous you can do the same with a worker. This capital screams whipping to me, at least until the clams and mines are up.

I have knowledge of this map from 500 bc so giving advice on city placement from me could be a bit biased. Here are some thoughts that i would probably have had anyway looking at what you've scouted so far.

- The gold is very important, you can certainly not afford to lose it, with horses and
wheat it'll be a very productive early city.

- Then again the city site you marked in the east would stake off a considerable chunk
of land.

- You only met Darius? This would suggest that the regio near you isn't exactly over
crowded.

1 went 1e of the site you proposed where bronze is. That in order to squezee one more 2e of the fish - 4 good cottages, 3 riversided, with 2 scientists, make my heart droll(was borrowing the plain plain from the he city) :p

however... if I got both spots, it's obviously no guarantee that you'll get them too as, thank God, games are always different.

also, went 1w from where you have "block 2". I was helped by a barbarian city placed 1n of that corn which I planned to culturally flip - and did. Your current blocker blocks only in 3rd ring - darius can go se along the coast.

sure, all blocks are mostly "psychological" as well - you normally have ob and crap so they don't settle just because. But I like to have a "hard block" too - especially given it's normal speed and it's no fuss to check every turn if he actually passes along with a settler. Usually on marathon I end up forgetting and reloading, but here there aren't enough turns...

also, don't forget what I always forget - stockpile some cash. 20g or so. Got 1 forest burnt since I forgot the level and was hoping for at least 2 huts, 1 probably with some cash. As it turned out, I only got the one from the border pop., obviously with the same old map... But ate 1 unhappy face right when I didn't need it.

Still no real time to play any Civ. :sad:

I was going to try the Washington game but having the same trouble trying to download this game. Runtime error and the game fails to load.

So a quick couple of questions do I need the BUG mod or the new patch or both to play this game?

Very out of practice at Civ so easing myself back with a deity game sounds a good idea. ;) If I can get it to run that is. :D

As far as i know having bugmod shoudn't be necessary, it might be that you'll need the 3.17 patch. What error do you get exactly?

Giving this a try. Goal: Don't die.

You need to patch to be able to open 3.17 games.

1720 BC:
Worker first and put research towards AH for the cows. I pop a map once my borders pop revealing some great land to the west (my warrior went east and popped another hut for some gold but died to a lion shortly after while fortified on a hill).

Worker -> part-warrior -> another worker on size 3 to chop -> finish warrior -> another warrior while growing to size 4 and then started on my 3rd worker.

Research I went for BW after AH as creative allows resources in the 3rd ring to be hooked up in time for the barbs. If we weren’t creative we’d have to go for archers slowing down the early game a great deal.

Greeted by a Persian scout from the west on turn 5 or 6—I better hurry up towards that great land, Darius must be close by. Also met Zara pretty early (east) with my scouting warrior.

Whip (2 pop) my 3rd worker the same turn BW is in at 27 or so out of 60 hammers. I’m going to use the overflow to get some chariots out quickly.

I put emphasis on the western lands moving most of my stuff there and eventually I decide to attack Darius. Susa is guarded by no more than an archer and an axeman and I have 3 chariots nearby. Darius hooked up his copper just recently so he should have no more than 1 or 2 units from it and when studying the the cultural borders I discover that he won’t control the copper anymore if I grab Susa (until turn 51 when his capital gets 100 culture, but I can pillage it by then).

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh206/Rust1/Civ4ScreenShot0042.jpg

This would be a completely different game if Darius had made a spearman before the axeman as I wouldn’t have odds in my favour and probably not attack at all but favour peaceful expansion instead. As it stands I can’t help but cease the opportunity though. Susa is a great city and our UU shines at just this.

I get a little unlucky with the first attack; his archer takes out 2 chariots and doesn’t die, so the city doesn’t fall yet (I even lost my warrior to a scout >_<). However, I do get the city in the end and the copper is thus unclaimed again.

Judging by his power rating some turns later I can assume that he has not hooked up anything someplace else so I decide to head in for another city.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh206/Rust1/huc10006.jpg

The second strike is more successful than the first—this time my chariots overpower the archers right away and I capture Pasargadae, a good commerce city.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh206/Rust1/huc10009.jpg

What’s more surprising is finding a Maya city this close—Darius is truly blocked in with nowhere to go. While I’d normally call it quits for a rush here I think I’m going to go for Persepolis as well soon. If Darius still lacks metal he’s not going to get it any time soon anyway so I can take a breather and resume soon-ish which wouldn't be possible normally.

I think its a great idea to have a "club" type game on every level. Thats why I still run the Nobles Club although I havent played Noble for months and months, and also why I got involved in the Monarchist Cookbook. I play most games at Emperor now, and there is no Emp Level Club, so hmmm . . . (ok just kidding, heh, we have a lot of games now, heh)

I played a few Imm U games, and didnt do too badly, although I didnt have a winning position in any of them when I gave up (well, maybe the Louis one, actually). Thats not to say I couldnt have won those games, its likely possible I could have pulled them out knowing that simply surviving into the point in the game where I have "Military Tech Parity" is usually enough, since the AI is so poor at war and we humans tend to be a bit more devious.

Since Hatty is one of my top 5 fav leaders, I am going to have a go. I will even try to do a report (win or lose) to see where I strayed from a more solid path of play. Rustens Diety threads have helped my game a LOT, just applying his thought processes to Emperor level has been huge.

@silverbullet I did the same tech path as you so no worries there. Riverside grassland hills are better than clams here anyway as there's so much food already. Your western blocking is kinda passive. I guess it works, but being creative you could push even harder with #2 (getting the wheat/horses/gold first is fine I guess). You could for instance give the riverside desert hill a go if you want to push your game and grab a lot of flood plains (the one south of the copper/the blue).

@silverbullet I did the same tech path as you so no worries there. Riverside grassland hills are better than clams here anyway as there's so much food already. Your western blocking is kinda passive. I guess it works, but being creative you could push even harder with #2 (getting the wheat/horses/gold first is fine I guess). You could for instance give the riverside desert hill a go if you want to push your game and grab a lot of flood plains (the one south of the copper/the blue).

Rusten

My block1 and block2 where meant to be option1 and option2, not the order in which I intend to settle.
If I do settle the horse gold wheat, there is no point settling the 2nd city there, I agree.

Rusten's post reminded me why it's the 1st game I play over 1 year non stop :p

in my game, susa was actually a barbarian city 1n of his position which darius managed to get asap with 3 succesful archer vs archer attacks - I remember as it really got on my nerves :p

that being said, beside worker/worker which I still think it's optimal, is what I think is lost me the game. Had the wcs in position, but decided not to rush since it's deity and immortals are something to be respected - a thing which combined with my problems with playing at this speed probably costed me the game.

to top the ice on the cake, darius had too much on it's hands since -1.5k. And since he kept on mentioning his WE, I kept spamming spears only to turn out he was actually after a barbarian city 1n from the sw corn - he ceased having too much on his hands when I culturally fliped that spot.

As a result, I took him 2k years after I should've done it, which probably costed me the game.

otherwise, great map to start a diety "club"; it's hands down one of the best setups for deity I ever saw :p

play the map ;) while not being the easiest thing around, it's challenging, but winnable - something rare enough; when they rush you -1k there ain't much you can do, and this definitely ain't one of those cases.

bottom line and in order to do some advertising - was great playing this map, despite being puzzled about researching mc in 2 turns only to realize afterwards I was actually doing 29x beaker/turn which meant my research wasn't even half as great as I thought it was :p And while hating deity enough since it leaves so little room for imagination ;)

Until 1200BC

I decided to take Dirk's advice and whip a settler at size 4.
After that I decided to settle the horses+gold+wheat first, so that I can claim the wheat before darius, and also because this city already has an improved tile of horses. I was really sorry about it when I saw this:

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk162/silverbullet_sz/hatty/Civ4ScreenShot0023.jpg

I don't remember the exact build order after the settler, but I managed to whip a granary in Thebes, and using the overflow for some workboats.

A barbarian city formed here:
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk162/silverbullet_sz/hatty/Civ4ScreenShot0022.jpg
So I stationed a chariot there, in case Darius comes. I will need to bring some more soon.

I managed to grab this city next:
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk162/silverbullet_sz/hatty/Civ4ScreenShot0021.jpg

I lost one chariot to an archer defending hut in the north.
I didn't give up and sent another chariot to kill this archer.
The thankful villagers have revealed me some great secrets in return:
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk162/silverbullet_sz/hatty/Civ4ScreenShot0017.jpg

city overview:

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk162/silverbullet_sz/hatty/Civ4ScreenShot0019.jpg
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk162/silverbullet_sz/hatty/Civ4ScreenShot0020.jpg
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk162/silverbullet_sz/hatty/Civ4ScreenShot0024.jpg


I have just finished hunting and decided to switch to 100% gold until a library is available. I will probably research Aesthetics next, I am pretty sure that with these neighbours someone will have alphabet soon.

We met Zara and Bismark.
Zara is hindu and has enough on his hands already. I hope this is because he is after a barbarian village.
Darius is Confucian. This puts me in a very tough position. I will not be able to run state religion, at least not most of the time. Luckily as spiritual I can do bursts of caste+pacifism and switch back to no religion to avoid annoying anyone. In the best case scenario Zara will spam missionaries to Darius and convert him, negating the culture bonus of Susa :)
In addition christianity and judaism have spread to me, so there are a lot of religions out there.

Some scouting of the north:
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk162/silverbullet_sz/hatty/Civ4ScreenShot0025.jpg


General plans: build libraries, research aesthetics, settle the fish+pig spot, build some war chariots and axemen to keep power rating and take over barbarian city.

current army: 1 warrior, 4 chariots
current workers: 3 (very low, I know)


Looking forward to hear some feedback. I feel like I am walking on egg shells here and need some guidance.

Also started the game yesterday, playing up to around 1000 BC...


Funny, I considered going down the same path as Rusten, attacking Persia right away, but then decided against it, because I got swarmed by hordes and hordes of barbs. So I built worker, worker and initially planned to build 1 wchariot, but then ended up building 3, to survive the barb onslaught (I got invaded by roughly 20 units, mainly archers...)

This also crippled my early scouting and so I didnt get any good blocking cities up. So I settled my first city towards Dari, stealing the wheat from him, the second in the desert right from my capital, getting fish and pigs, and only then finding the ele-spot. So I build immediately another settler heading there which arrived in time, but I wont be able to block of Zara from expanding into the north there. Same goes for Dari, I cant block of the marble site, so I decided to spam settlers in my capital and settle eveywhere:crazyeye:... ...the settler for the marble is already on its way. The wheat, horse and gold city I used to spam workeres (helped by chopping) and now I have a pretty big and healthy empire, consisting of 4 cities (soon having 6, because Dari was nice enough to weaken a barb city so I can capture it soon and I will settle the marble city also, when I have a worker ready to go there).

Research was fishing, AH, mining, bronze... ...I read that most of you didnt go fishing... ...I like fishing, the free hammers come in handy that early and usually compensates for the detour.

Some pics:

Left empire with settler and barb city
185811

Right empire showing my expansion there
185812

Some unit stats...
185813

And my plan:

This map ist pretty hard, we only have gold, silber, eles and fur but are lacking diamonds with and only 4 of the early happy we cant really grow our cities...:lol:...no, really, this map is brilliant of a first deity challange, because it offers a lot of possibilities. I think I will just continue to spam settlers and ignore blocking because I will have enought cities soon:lol:

Then I might even go wonderwhoring and delay trading arround aest, to do something different. Marble also more or less guaranties the GLib. Lets see how many of the early wonders I can grab:D

I have no urgent plans for war, so no idea whom I will go after alter and when (and with what troops...)

Some good play here as expected,

@Snaaty

I did go fishing first after AH too but regretted it a bit later, the only way to justify this move is if you've got time to build a workboat before actually researching bw so i assume you built a boat after the first worker. I got only a few hammers invested in a boat at that time because i was to busy building a second worker to get a move on connecting horse. Didn't matter much in the end as i got the health event (took it of course) and have to delay whipping for some more turns.

Your empire looks good, it occurs to me that you didn't try to block very aggressive to the east if Heliopolis is your most eastern city picking the best sites instead. I agree that the map isn't that hard but the opponent will be later on. Especially Zara Yacob is often a very capable ai in my games. Darius'll probably be a challenge in the lib race


@Rusten

Nice rush.


@silverbullet

From the games i've seen so far your game resembles mine the most. I didn't have any chance to get the western wheat so i settled that city 1se on a plain tile to preserve the grassland but more im portantly to borrow a clam from the capital. Build the eastern city 1s from where you did to get cows but probably lose copper, this was a hard decision , i've been thinking long if i shouldn't settle where you did, we'll see how it works out.

I certainly didn't pop math but i got the health event at a moment it didn't hurt so i can't complain. Having popped math it might be interesting to research a few turns into
alpha first , you'll need to do that anyway once you have aesthetics, as it is there's a chance someone gets alpha without having math, you'll get alpha very cheap in this case. On immortal i'd say this is a fair chance, less so on deity but it can['t hurt.


@Snowlywhite

Great map indeed, i blinked a few times when i settled in place and saw how much food the capital had. Rest of the map is generous too but i think that espeically Zara'll be a pain later. I won't attack someone before renaissance, Zara's first on my list but he might be too powerful even then.

@Dirk

in my game, he sure was; that was the reason I gave up(probably didn't have reasons too, but wasn't anywhere near won). Pre Darius, I was at 16% land and zara was already at 27.x%; post Darius, I barely got to 21%, but what puzzled me is how fast the tech advanced while I was playing with my trebs. in the sand :p

And definitely same approach doesn't work on normal speed... My tech advantage would've been gone till I moved the stack on the other side towards zara.

Post playing, I'd say zara 1st probably would've been way better; got to face muskets instead of oromos, but doubt it was worth it.

@Snowlywhite

You might give it another try? Though i can imagine you don't want to play the same map twice. Zara's almost always dangerous indeed.

trying now a couple of immortal games on normal to adjust; same map twice, no :p

especially since contrary to marathon here scouting is a challange - there I know half of the map before poping the 2nd settler; so knowing the map I think is a true advantage

Well, my plan failed completely, because (played up to around 300 BC)

when I continued the game, I suddenly discovered that Dari had just found Tao in his bordercity, guarantied to steal my corn, leaving my city there crippled forever... ...Tao around 1000 BC:crazyeye:... ...and he also had lit finished, when I reached Aes:lol:

Beeing pretty pissed, I changed my plan a little and decided to go for total war on Dari, switching everything on army, trading Aest for Math and Iron (luckily finding some:king:)...

Invaded Dari with mainly wchars and some axes, took his bordercity and destroyed a smaller one, went for peace and got some money and redeclared 10 turns later... ...with 6-8 wchars, 5-6 axes and 5-6 swords... ...long live whipchopp...

Keept producing units throughout the full war, my losses were giganourmous, but managed to wrestle down Dari city by city, groundin my reseach completely in the proces:rolleyes:

Bad luck was, that the German dude took the barbcity in my backlands, but you cant have everything:D

I have no idea if I can come back reseachwise in this game and recover somehow, but berserking through Dari was pretty fun and def. worth it... ...I have never ever experienced an AI teching THAT fast, he even had CS around 500 BC, but luckily neglecting Feuda:goodjob:

Some pics:
185824

185825

185826

185827

EDIT:
Oh, and I managed to trade Aest + 170 Gold (warbounty) for Currency with Rome somewhen...

EDIT2:
Oh, I´m having 9 cities + a fortified settler right now and 2 more brilliant citysites open (one where I burned a Persian city nearby and one near the marble...) making 12 altogether... ...IF I can recover, I´ll win

What did I do wrong?????
1000BC

Zara declared war on me 1000BC. He had had enough on his hands for a while.
Was my mistake settling too fast to far with a weak army?
Our power ratio was 0.2 when we met.
With 6 axes near my elephant city (and a spear) I don't see much chance of defending my land.

I think the goal on Deity is to avoid getting declared in the first place, right?

Anyway, I would like to retry this game from my earlier 2520BC save where it is probably still doable. Do you think I made some serious mistake that has led to that declaration, or is it just tough luck?

zara is... "volatile" to say the least :p

he's pleased with everyone and... bam, out of the blue ;)

that being said, I adopted his religion thinking that will only net me -2 with darius and, while -4 with pacal, pacal loves his hr so overall I'd be at cautious. Think that kept me safe(he founded hindu in my game too); but nevertheless I kept checking him non stop knowing his personality

and as snaaty says below, I built racks and had some wc when settling bronze as 3rd city - no clue what was the power report as I don't have any mods. Obviously it was abyssimal, but think it was well over .2

@ silver

0.2 power of your neighbour around 1000 BC is def. too low, especially when you settle aggressiv. You need more then 1/3 of the power to be rel. save.

Try to build baracks firstthing in your new cities and try to have 6 Axes charriots or a decent force of archers around 1000 BC to do so... (you cant be 100% save, but these figgures surely reduce the risk greatly...)

Downloaded new patch so I'm all set to go. :)

Up to 1720 BC just to see how other starts went.



Settled in place techs went AH, (from hut with 2 turns left, still all helps at this level) Mining, BW, Fishing. Found Zara's land early so decided on Ivory/FP/Bronze as second city before he took it. Then found Darius Susa. First thought rush?

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh168/SJG12345/Civ4ScreenShot0001-1.jpg

WC against spears perhaps not such a good idea. ;)

Decided 3rd city would pick up the gold/horse/wheat.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh168/SJG12345/Civ4ScreenShot0003-1.jpg

Just lost the wheat tile to Darius have to see if I can claim it back.

Future plans.

Not sure :lol:

Not looking to attack anybody but will try and get as much land/cities as possible without totally tanking my economy (already is :)). I need to explore a lot more. Once writing is in I can use scientists for research as my science rate will not be much above 0% for some time ;). Tech wise I'm going to try for aesth as trade value and hopefully settle marble site for the GLib. I've set my ep points against Darius so hopefully will be able to steal some techs there. :mischief:

Off to read the other spoilers and see how my start looks aginst the other games.

Up to 100 AD (enough for today:)):

Well, managed to recover, will try to ally with Zara and expand towards Maya + Germany. Position should be strong enough to bring this home...

Tech
185832

Empire
185833

Plans:
Get lib, tech rifling, draft a moderate army, capture barb city germany stole from me, trimm Maya (or the other way around), then decide wether I go space or domi, both should be possible

@silverbullet,@snaaty and @Snowlywhite

silverbulllet, compared to my game at least you've got a big slice of bad luck, i'll check but i don't think i have much more than 0.2 power compared to Zara at that time.Didn't you mention that he had enough on his hands earlier? Anyway by playing the first part i hoped that this wouldn't happen but declaration is random of course. I'd try again from a point where Zara doesn't have enough on his hands, incorporating Snaaty's suggestions and settling in the same places as you did.

Snaaty, i know you mentioned building barracks immediately to boost power in your emperor+ guide, do you know the formula for the declaration chance or is it some thing you learned from experience? I've always had a feeling that power at 0.2 or 0.3 or even 0.4 is way low and you have to be a bit lucky not get declared on.

@Snowlywhite, the exact stats for each leader are in the guide of course so i'll check, in my experience Zara is generally quite peaceful (dangerous as in teching fast and building lots of units but peaceful).Having him and Darius as neighbours was one of the reasons i didn't hurry barracks too much.

Concerning the power thing:

It´s only from experience. But from my experience, by keeping your power above 1/3 of your neigbour, I usually am able to avoid getting declared by opportunist idiots (getting declared without WHEOOH). Doesnt help when a neighbour enters WHEOOH, this is bad luck and happens sometimes, even with your power above 50%, nothing you can do about it:sad:

Concerning the power thing:

It´s only from experience. But from my experience, by keeping your power above 1/3 of your neigbour, I usually am able to avoid getting declared by opportunist idiots (getting declared without WHEOOH). Doesnt help when a neighbour enters WHEOOH, this is bad luck and happens sometimes, even with your power above 50%, nothing you can do about it:sad:

I tried to replay it, and he is WHEOOH 2 round after I settle near him. I had slighly more power this time, but still 0.2.
My only comfort is that when I lose I get the message "Dirk the hopeless" :)

OK Diety is froakin HARD, but I think I have done a reasonable job here. I would love it if one of you "well established" Diety players could take a peek at my save and give me some tips.

4000 BC - 575 BC
Settled in place, and started off teching Fishing while building a Worker, since he had Corn. Then I went right into AH, and since Horses were going to be in my culture soon enough, I built a Work Boat, Work Boat, Settler. After AH, I went Mining, BW, Writing, Aesthetics, remembering Snaatys tips about that tech. Worked like a charm, as I was able to back-fill a pile of techs by trading it around. I am now teching Lit, and hoping to build the GL since I have Marble.

I was able to build the settler quickly thanks to the 2 boats + corn + cows, so I whipped another Worker into a War Chariot just as the Horses were hooked up. I also built another settler, Barracks and Library in the Cap, and each new city I settled built a Worker as well. I think I have a good mix so far.

Met my neighbors, Darius and Zara. Thats a good thing, because although they are among the best techers in the game, they are also among the easiest to get along with. My first settler claimed the Gold-Marble-Floodplains site to the SW, my 2nd settler grabbed the Copper-Elephants-Floodplains site to the SE. I was also fortunate enough to claim 2 Barb cities, one south of my 2nd city by the corn, and one to the NW with the Cows-Furs. I added another city of my own in between my Cap and the Copper-Ele city, to get the Fish-Pigs-Incense, and I am planning another city in the North for the Crabs-Silver before I am "done" with my own initial non-military REX. Here are a few screens of my empire:http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Bleys_bucket/Hatty%20Diety/Civ4ScreenShot0188.jpg
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Bleys_bucket/Hatty%20Diety/Civ4ScreenShot0189.jpg
I have chopped/whipped out a bunch of Barracks, a few Libraries, captured 2 Barb workers, and now I am building an army, which I am thinking of taking down a few of Darius' cities. He is REALLY pushing on my culture, but its possible I can actually flip them. Need some advice there.

I have 5 Axes and 6 War Chariots right now, but my power rating is still only .5 of Darius, ugh. All have at least 1 promo. and I have an Archer in each city as well. Any advice would be appreciated, I am thinking I have to push Darius, but if I can culture flip his cities (my Cap will pop borders again soon, and that will put my culture into 2 of his city tiles), maybe I should head to Zara? Or maybe I should just skip the idea of attacking anyone, and go on about my business of working my empire. I have a decent amount of workers, and still some forests to chop. If I can get the GL, I think I can actually get to Lib first, which would be the first time EVER for me on Immortal+ difficulty. One good thing in my favor is that Darius, Zara and I all share a religion, thats going to help a LOT, I feel so exposed and weak, LOL.
I am going to play another game for a bit, I hope someone can peek at my save, I am actually quite pleased, this was a reasonable starting map Dirk, good pick. I can get to 7 cities by 1 AD, and still be at 30% slider with a couple Libraries for some scientists with the extra food. If this was Emperor, I would probably already have killed Zara, LOL, but I just cant seem to get my power rating up anywhere near the AIs.

Here is the Auto-Log if you want to see the progression of the game. Thanks in advance for any advice. :
Logging by BUG Mod 2.30 (BtS 3.13)
------------------------------------------------
[b]Turn 0/500 (4000 BC) [14-Aug-2008 08:40:48]
Thebes founded
Thebes begins: Worker (15 turns)
Research begun: Fishing (7 Turns)

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:

Turn 1/500 (3960 BC) [14-Aug-2008 08:41:42]

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:

Turn 2/500 (3920 BC) [14-Aug-2008 08:41:57]

After End Turn:
Thebes's borders expand
Tribal village results: map

Other Player Actions:

Turn 3/500 (3880 BC) [14-Aug-2008 08:42:02]

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:

Turn 4/500 (3840 BC) [14-Aug-2008 08:42:15]
Tribal village results: a little gold

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:

Turn 5/500 (3800 BC) [14-Aug-2008 08:42:19]

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
Contact made: Persian Empire

Turn 6/500 (3760 BC) [14-Aug-2008 08:42:24]

After End Turn:
Tech learned: Fishing

Other Player Actions:

Turn 7/500 (3720 BC) [14-Aug-2008 08:42:47]
Research begun: Animal Husbandry (13 Turns)

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:

Turn 8/500 (3680 BC) [14-Aug-2008 08:42:57]

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
Buddhism founded in a distant land

Turn 9/500 (3640 BC) [14-Aug-2008 08:43:03]

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:

Turn 10/500 (3600 BC) [14-Aug-2008 08:43:10]
Tribal village results: weak hostiles
Contact made: Ethiopian Empire

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
While defending in the wild, Warrior (0.20/2) defeats Barbarian Warrior (Prob Victory: 96.7%)
Civics Change: Zara Yaqob(Ethiopia) from 'Tribalism' to 'Slavery'

Turn 11/500 (3560 BC) [14-Aug-2008 08:43:30]

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:

Turn 12/500 (3520 BC) [14-Aug-2008 08:43:39]

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:

Turn 13/500 (3480 BC) [14-Aug-2008 08:43:46]

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:

Turn 14/500 (3440 BC) [14-Aug-2008 08:43:51]

After End Turn:
Thebes finishes: Worker

Other Player Actions:

Turn 15/500 (3400 BC) [14-Aug-2008 08:43:58]
Thebes begins: Work Boat (30 turns)

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:

Turn 16/500 (3360 BC) [14-Aug-2008 08:44:11]

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:

Turn 17/500 (3320 BC) [14-Aug-2008 08:44:20]

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
Hinduism founded in a distant land

Turn 18/500 (3280 BC) [14-Aug-2008 08:44:55]

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
State Religion Change: Darius I(Persia) from 'no State Religion' to 'Hinduism'

Turn 19/500 (3240 BC) [14-Aug-2008 08:45:19]

After End Turn:
Tech learned: Animal Husbandry

Other Player Actions:

Turn 20/500 (3200 BC) [14-Aug-2008 08:45:23]
Research begun: Mining (8 Turns)
A Farm was built near Thebes

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:

Turn 21/500 (3160 BC) [14-Aug-2008 08:45:39]

After End Turn:
Thebes grows to size 2

Other Player Actions:

Turn 22/500 (3120 BC) [14-Aug-2008 08:45:46]

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:

Turn 23/500 (3080 BC) [14-Aug-2008 08:45:52]

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:

Turn 24/500 (3040 BC) [14-Aug-2008 08:46:01]

After End Turn:
Thebes grows to size 3
Thebes's borders expand

Other Player Actions:

Turn 25/500 (3000 BC) [14-Aug-2008 08:46:07]

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:

Turn 26/500 (2960 BC) [14-Aug-2008 08:46:12]
A Pasture was built near Thebes

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:

Turn 27/500 (2920 BC) [14-Aug-2008 08:46:16]

After End Turn:
Tech learned: Mining

Other Player Actions:

Turn 28/500 (2880 BC) [14-Aug-2008 08:46:30]
Research begun: Bronze Working (14 Turns)

After End Turn:
Thebes grows to size 4
Thebes finishes: Work Boat

Other Player Actions:
While defending in the wild, Warrior (1.40/2) defeats Barbarian Warrior (Prob Victory: 96.7%)
Civics Change: Darius I(Persia) from 'Tribalism' to 'Slavery'

Turn 29/500 (2840 BC) [14-Aug-2008 08:46:46]
Thebes begins: Work Boat (5 turns)
A Fishing Boats was built near Thebes
Warrior promoted: Woodsman I

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:

Turn 30/500 (2800 BC) [14-Aug-2008 08:47:59]

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:

Turn 31/500 (2760 BC) [14-Aug-2008 08:49:10]

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:

Turn 32/500 (2720 BC) [14-Aug-2008 08:49:44]

After End Turn:
Thebes finishes: Work Boat

Other Player Actions:

Turn 33/500 (2680 BC) [14-Aug-2008 08:49:49]
Thebes begins: Settler (8 turns)

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
While defending in the wild, Warrior (1.12/2) defeats Barbarian Archer (Prob Victory: 65.7%)

Turn 34/500 (2640 BC) [14-Aug-2008 08:50:06]
A Fishing Boats was built near Thebes

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:

Turn 35/500 (2600 BC) [14-Aug-2008 08:50:17]

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:

Turn 36/500 (2560 BC) [14-Aug-2008 08:50:40]

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:

Turn 37/500 (2520 BC) [14-Aug-2008 08:50:49]

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:

Turn 38/500 (2480 BC) [14-Aug-2008 08:50:53]

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:

Turn 39/500 (2440 BC) [14-Aug-2008 08:50:58]
A Pasture was built

After End Turn:
Tech learned: Bronze Working
Thebes finishes: Settler

Other Player Actions:

Turn 40/500 (2400 BC) [14-Aug-2008 08:51:01]
Research begun: Masonry (8 Turns)
Thebes begins: Worker (4 turns)
Research begun: Writing (12 Turns)

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
Civics Change: Dirk(Egypt) from 'Tribalism' to 'Slavery'

Turn 41/500 (2360 BC) [14-Aug-2008 08:52:21]

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:

Turn 42/500 (2320 BC) [14-Aug-2008 08:52:28]

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:

Turn 43/500 (2280 BC) [14-Aug-2008 08:52:34]

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Thebes
Thebes finishes: Worker

Other Player Actions:

Turn 44/500 (2240 BC) [14-Aug-2008 08:53:15]
Thebes begins: War Chariot (10 turns)

After End Turn:
Thebes finishes: War Chariot

Other Player Actions:

Turn 45/500 (2200 BC) [14-Aug-2008 08:54:28]
Thebes begins: War Chariot (10 turns)

After End Turn:
Thebes finishes: War Chariot

Other Player Actions:

Turn 46/500 (2160 BC) [14-Aug-2008 09:48:10]
Thebes begins: War Chariot (10 turns)
While attacking, War Chariot decimates Barbarian Archer (Prob Victory: 96.2%)
While attacking in Egyptian territory near Thebes, War Chariot (2.75/5) defeats Barbarian Archer (Prob Victory: 96.2%)

After End Turn:
Thebes grows to size 4

Other Player Actions:
While defending in Egyptian territory at Thebes, War Chariot (3.50/5) defeats Barbarian Archer (Prob Victory: 96.2%)

Turn 47/500 (2120 BC) [14-Aug-2008 09:49:58]
War Chariot promoted: Combat I

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Thebes
Thebes finishes: War Chariot

Other Player Actions:
Judaism founded in a distant land
While defending in Egyptian territory near Thebes, War Chariot loses to Barbarian Archer (0.93/3) (Prob Victory: 59.3%)

Turn 48/500 (2080 BC) [14-Aug-2008 09:50:39]
Thebes begins: War Chariot (10 turns)
While attacking, War Chariot decimates Barbarian Archer (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
While attacking in Egyptian territory at Thebes, War Chariot (5.00/5) defeats Barbarian Archer (Prob Victory: 100.0%)

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:

Turn 49/500 (2040 BC) [14-Aug-2008 09:51:21]
Thebes begins: Settler (15 turns)
A Mine was built near Thebes

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:

Turn 50/500 (2000 BC) [14-Aug-2008 09:52:56]
Memphis founded
Memphis begins: Worker (15 turns)

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:

Turn 51/500 (1960 BC) [14-Aug-2008 09:53:34]

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:

Turn 52/500 (1920 BC) [14-Aug-2008 09:53:53]

After End Turn:
Tech learned: Writing

Other Player Actions:

Turn 53/500 (1880 BC) [14-Aug-2008 09:54:07]
Research begun: Aesthetics (24 Turns)

After End Turn:
Whip anger has decreased in Thebes

Other Player Actions:

Turn 54/500 (1840 BC) [14-Aug-2008 09:54:51]

After End Turn:
Memphis's borders expand

Other Player Actions:
Civics Change: Darius I(Persia) from 'Paganism' to 'Organized Religion'

Turn 55/500 (1800 BC) [14-Aug-2008 09:54:58]

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:

Turn 56/500 (1760 BC) [14-Aug-2008 09:55:25]

After End Turn:
Thebes finishes: Settler

Other Player Actions:

Turn 57/500 (1720 BC) [14-Aug-2008 09:55:38]

After End Turn:
Thebes grows to size 4
Thebes finishes: War Chariot

Other Player Actions:

Turn 58/500 (1680 BC) [14-Aug-2008 09:55:51]
Thebes begins: Library (12 turns)

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:

Turn 59/500 (1640 BC) [14-Aug-2008 09:56:18]

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Darius I(Persia) towards Zara Yaqob(Ethiopia), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Zara Yaqob(Ethiopia) towards Dirk(Egypt), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 60/500 (1600 BC) [14-Aug-2008 09:56:26]

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:

Turn 61/500 (1560 BC) [14-Aug-2008 09:57:02]
Heliopolis founded
Heliopolis begins: Worker (15 turns)
A Mine was built near Thebes

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:

Turn 62/500 (1520 BC) [14-Aug-2008 09:57:20]

After End Turn:
Thebes finishes: Library

Other Player Actions:
Contact made: Roman Empire

Turn 63/500 (1480 BC) [14-Aug-2008 09:57:37]
Thebes begins: Barracks (7 turns)
While attacking, War Chariot decimates Barbarian Warrior (Prob Victory: 99.1%)
While attacking in Barbarian territory at Harappan, War Chariot (3.60/5) defeats Barbarian Warrior (Prob Victory: 99.1%)
Tribal village results: a little gold

After End Turn:
Whip anger has decreased in Thebes
Thebes grows to size 5

Other Player Actions:

Turn 64/500 (1440 BC) [14-Aug-2008 09:58:13]

After End Turn:
Memphis finishes: Worker

Other Player Actions:
Hinduism has spread: Thebes

Turn 65/500 (1400 BC) [14-Aug-2008 09:58:48]
Memphis begins: Barracks (50 turns)

After End Turn:
Heliopolis's borders expand

Other Player Actions:
Hinduism has spread: Memphis
State Religion Change: Dirk(Egypt) from 'no State Religion' to 'Hinduism'
Attitude Change: Darius I(Persia) towards Dirk(Egypt), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 66/500 (1360 BC) [14-Aug-2008 09:59:06]

After End Turn:
Thebes finishes: Barracks

Other Player Actions:

Turn 67/500 (1320 BC) [14-Aug-2008 09:59:42]
Thebes begins: Work Boat (4 turns)

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:

Turn 68/500 (1280 BC) [14-Aug-2008 10:00:05]

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:

Turn 69/500 (1240 BC) [14-Aug-2008 10:00:46]
While attacking, War Chariot decimates Barbarian Archer (Prob Victory: 99.9%)
While attacking in Egyptian territory at Memphis, War Chariot (4.25/5) defeats Barbarian Archer (Prob Victory: 99.9%)

After End Turn:
Thebes grows to size 6

Other Player Actions:

Turn 70/500 (1200 BC) [14-Aug-2008 10:01:07]
A Mine was built near Thebes

After End Turn:
Thebes finishes: Work Boat

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Zara Yaqob(Ethiopia) towards Dirk(Egypt), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Turn 71/500 (1160 BC) [14-Aug-2008 10:01:27]
Thebes begins: War Chariot (3 turns)
A Farm was built near Memphis

After End Turn:
Memphis grows to size 2

Other Player Actions:

Turn 72/500 (1120 BC) [14-Aug-2008 10:05:30]
A Fishing Boats was built near Thebes

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:

Turn 73/500 (1080 BC) [14-Aug-2008 10:06:12]
While attacking, War Chariot decimates Barbarian Archer (Prob Victory: 65.2%)
While attacking in Egyptian territory at Olmec, War Chariot (1.20/5) defeats Barbarian Archer (Prob Victory: 65.2%)
Captured Olmec (Barbarian)
Olmec begins: Barracks (51 turns)

After End Turn:
Thebes finishes: War Chariot

Other Player Actions:

Turn 74/500 (1040 BC) [14-Aug-2008 10:06:58]
Thebes begins: Settler (6 turns)
War Chariot promoted: Shock

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:

Turn 75/500 (1000 BC) [14-Aug-2008 10:07:53]
A Mine was built near Heliopolis

After End Turn:
Heliopolis finishes: Worker

Other Player Actions:

Turn 76/500 (975 BC) [14-Aug-2008 10:08:18]
Heliopolis begins: Barracks (10 turns)
War Chariot promoted: Combat I
War Chariot promoted: Combat I

After End Turn:
Memphis grows to size 3

Other Player Actions:

Turn 77/500 (950 BC) [14-Aug-2008 10:09:12]
While attacking, War Chariot decimates Barbarian Archer (Prob Victory: 98.7%)
While attacking in Barbarian territory at Harappan, War Chariot (5.00/5) defeats Barbarian Archer (Prob Victory: 98.7%)

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
Confucianism founded in a distant land

Turn 78/500 (925 BC) [14-Aug-2008 10:10:26]
War Chariot promoted: Combat II
A Mine was built near Memphis

After End Turn:
Thebes finishes: Settler

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Augustus Caesar(Rome) towards Zara Yaqob(Ethiopia), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 79/500 (900 BC) [14-Aug-2008 10:11:37]
Thebes begins: War Chariot (4 turns)

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Zara Yaqob(Ethiopia) towards Dirk(Egypt), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 80/500 (875 BC) [14-Aug-2008 10:14:52]

After End Turn:
Tech learned: Aesthetics

Other Player Actions:
State Religion Change: Zara Yaqob(Ethiopia) from 'no State Religion' to 'Hinduism'
Civics Change: Darius I(Persia) from 'Despotism' to 'Hereditary Rule'

Turn 81/500 (850 BC) [14-Aug-2008 10:15:47]
Research begun: Sailing (5 Turns)
Research begun: Hunting (2 Turns)

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Olmec
Thebes finishes: War Chariot
Olmec finishes: Barracks

Other Player Actions:

Turn 82/500 (825 BC) [14-Aug-2008 10:17:47]
Thebes begins: Axeman (4 turns)
Olmec begins: Library (45 turns)
War Chariot promoted: Combat I

After End Turn:
Tech learned: Hunting
Memphis grows to size 4
Olmec grows to size 3
Olmec's borders expand

Other Player Actions:

Turn 83/500 (800 BC) [14-Aug-2008 10:19:24]
Research begun: Sailing (5 Turns)
While attacking, War Chariot escapes from Barbarian Archer (Prob Victory: 21.9%)
While attacking, War Chariot decimates Barbarian Archer (Prob Victory: 30.8%)
While attacking in Barbarian territory at Harappan, War Chariot (3.95/5) defeats Barbarian Archer (Prob Victory: 30.8%)
A Farm was built near Heliopolis
Tech learned: Mysticism
Tech learned: Pottery
Tech learned: Sailing
Tech learned: Archery
Research begun: Polytheism (4 Turns)
While attacking, War Chariot decimates Barbarian Archer (Prob Victory: 96.2%)
While attacking in Egyptian territory at Heliopolis, War Chariot (2.75/5) defeats Barbarian Archer (Prob Victory: 96.2%)

After End Turn:
Thebes grows to size 7

Other Player Actions:
Christianity founded in a distant land

Turn 84/500 (775 BC) [14-Aug-2008 10:21:23]
War Chariot promoted: Combat I
A Mine was built near Memphis
While attacking, War Chariot decimates Barbarian Archer (Prob Victory: 96.9%)
While attacking in Barbarian territory at Harappan, War Chariot (2.05/5) defeats Barbarian Archer (Prob Victory: 96.9%)
Captured Harappan (Barbarian)
Harappan begins: Granary (61 turns)

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Memphis
Memphis finishes: Barracks
Heliopolis grows to size 2
Elephantine's borders expand

Other Player Actions:

Turn 85/500 (750 BC) [14-Aug-2008 10:23:13]
Memphis begins: Archer (9 turns)
War Chariot promoted: Shock

After End Turn:
Memphis finishes: Archer

Other Player Actions:

Turn 86/500 (725 BC) [14-Aug-2008 10:24:06]
Memphis begins: Axeman (12 turns)
Archer promoted: City Garrison I

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Thebes
The whip was applied in Heliopolis
Thebes finishes: Axeman
Heliopolis finishes: Barracks
Olmec grows to size 4

Other Player Actions:

Turn 87/500 (700 BC) [14-Aug-2008 10:25:39]
Thebes begins: Axeman (6 turns)
Heliopolis begins: Archer (25 turns)
A Pasture was built near Elephantine
A Mine was built near Memphis

After End Turn:
Tech learned: Polytheism
Thebes finishes: Axeman
Heliopolis finishes: Archer

Other Player Actions:

Turn 88/500 (675 BC) [14-Aug-2008 10:27:36]
Research begun: Masonry (3 Turns)
Thebes begins: Archer (3 turns)
Heliopolis begins: Axeman (35 turns)
Archer promoted: City Garrison I

After End Turn:
Memphis's borders expand
Elephantine grows to size 2

Other Player Actions:

Turn 89/500 (650 BC) [14-Aug-2008 10:28:56]

After End Turn:
Thebes finishes: Archer
Olmec finishes: Library

Other Player Actions:
Contact made: German Empire
State Religion Change: Bismarck(Germany) from 'Judaism' to 'Buddhism'

Turn 90/500 (625 BC) [14-Aug-2008 10:29:15]
Thebes begins: Lighthouse (5 turns)
Olmec begins: Archer (5 turns)
A Cottage was built near Thebes
A Cottage was built near Elephantine
A Farm was built near Heliopolis
Archer promoted: City Garrison I
Tech learned: Iron Working
Axeman promoted: City Raider I
Axeman promoted: City Raider I
Harappan begins: Archer (9 turns)

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Elephantine
Tech learned: Masonry
Heliopolis grows to size 2
Elephantine finishes: Work Boat

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Bismarck(Germany) towards Dirk(Egypt), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 91/500 (600 BC) [14-Aug-2008 10:32:24]
Research begun: Literature (9 Turns)
Elephantine begins: Archer (13 turns)

After End Turn:
Whip anger has decreased in Olmec
The whip was applied in Harappan
Memphis grows to size 4
Olmec finishes: Archer
Hinduism has spread: Olmec
Harappan finishes: Archer

Other Player Actions:
While defending in Egyptian territory at Harappan, War Chariot (5.00/5) defeats Barbarian Archer (Prob Victory: 99.6%)

Turn 92/500 (575 BC) [14-Aug-2008 10:34:26]
Olmec begins: Granary (12 turns)
Archer promoted: City Garrison I
A Cottage was built near Memphis
A Fishing Boats was built near Elephantine
Tech learned: Meditation
Tech learned: Priesthood
Research begun: Literature (11 Turns)

@silverbullet

:lol:,teaches me to use my own name in starting save. Maybe try reloading from 4000 bc save in this case, you'll get the same odds as i did i think so might avoid declaration in this case.

I count myself lucky reading your fate, going to follow Snaaty's barracks suggestion more in the future. It's an ok building in the first place of course but i always try to sneak out that extra settler/worker before.


@Bleys,
Seems you started well, take a look at the save when home.

Regarding the barracks; it only counts as 3000 soldiers. That's the same as a war chariot or axeman so you could just make more of those instead with the same power effect (XP doesn't add anything to power). War chariots or axemen cost less hammers and are more useful. Early AI attacks aren't as common in BTS if you prioritize techs and units adding to power. If you look at my spoiler (to 1720 BC) you'll see a power graph and I wasn't lagging that far behind 2500 BC and onwards. I don't experience these early attacks often if I keep it in mind when playing and use my hammers wisely--I just got unlucky vs. Cathy in the game I posted some weeks ago (oyzar later told me she had floods/cows and 3 gold mines in her capital which explains her confidence and early boost).

There are also some techs adding to power which one can prioritize. Hunting and mining gives 2.000 soldiers, BW gives 8.000 and IW gives 10.000. I often sacrifice some early game developement in order to minimize the chances of early defeat. A barracks is good too of course, but don't expect to be safe just because you make one--3.000 soldiers isn't that much.

There are other techs (and buildings) too--these were just off the top of my head.

Beyond 3000 BC:
This is another reason as to why I avoided fishing and work boats in my game. I wanted to get my war chariots out as soon as possible. There's enough food already so production is next in line.

Well, if you all think I didn't make huge mistakes and just had tough luck, I will restart my game from 4000BC.

- 100AD



The good news is I'm still alive. :) The bad news is I'm currently at war. :sad:
The good news is its Monte and he is at war with Biz and Darius so I shouldn't see any of his units. With the state of my army (or lack of) I certainly don't want to :D.

Failed on a couple of things. Namely blocking off Zara and missing the GLib (didn't even have Lit when it was built). Bit shocked to see Darius with maces and LBs around 500BC and not long after Zara and Pacal with pikes but hopefully I will be able to catch up. :rolleyes:

Current tech situation.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh168/SJG12345/Civ4ScreenShot0006.jpg

Hopefully with bulbing and trading I'll catch up a bit.

My lands.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh168/SJG12345/Civ4ScreenShot0008.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh168/SJG12345/Civ4ScreenShot0007.jpg

I'm planning one more city to get the incense. Then aim at getting the Globe built and sometime in the distant future draft myself an army.

Note I'm not last in the scores either. :lol:

If he was 2 turns after settling wheooh, out of playing experience(always strived not to read anything in the code as I like playing with some randomness) it's because he wanted to settle there; and then he checks for declaration and probably passed(though on the other hand I read they check every turn, so... dunno, they check harder... ?:p).

Basically, I had quite some declarations when my settler "beats" the ai one to the spot(you see the other settler but you manage to settle 1st) or when the ai wants some barbarian city and you manage to conquer it.

Again, an impression and nothing more; might simply be bad luck.

@Dirk

didn't check stats, but the impression zara left me is he's a... "peaceful opportunist" combined with a zealot. Anyway, got wheooh from him while being pleased with him couple of times(pleased at wheooh time, not declaration time as that doesn't matter).

2160 BC:
Settled in place as Dirk recommended, AH to look for horses first and a worker.

3: hut was a map. shows floodplains in the west.

4: hut for 33 gold.

6: Darius' scout drops by from W

7: Zara scout in SE.

14: AH in fishing next. Horses just out of capital BFC.

15: Worker done start workboat.

16: OB with Zara looking for cheap +1 diplo.

20: fishing in, mining next.

23: warrior done start workboat

27: Mining in, BW next.

31: workboat done start warrior.

36: warrior done start settler.

41: BW in, choose pottery. Revolt to slavery.

42: Darius gets the GW.

43: settler done start workboat.

45: Settle Memphis. Start barracks.
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii8/jsschwa/Civ4ScreenShot0034.jpg
Known map:
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii8/jsschwa/Civ4ScreenShot0035.jpg

Is it viable to shoot for a war chariot "rush" on Darius? Or should I just use the decent amount of available space to expand peacefully?

@schwartz

Both approaches have been chosen so in hindsight i can answer with some degree of confidence. That'd spoil you game so i only tell you that i didn't rush and am still alive. I don't like early rushes even with UU's so this could merely be a matter of playing style on my part.

Until 1 AD

Went AH,fishing mining, BW. As i played it i should have reversed the order researching mining, BW before fishing as i didn't invest much hammers in the boat while teching mining bw and bw some 5 turns earlier could have helped me. Got the health event which i took of course so i had to refrain from whipping fr some turns anyway.

2360 BC: BW teched

2320 BC: the first barbs enter my lands, i'm just whipping my first chariot from settler overflow, timed with getting BW.
But the corn gets pillaged,all a bit sloppy this start of mine but it doesn't matter that much, destroy the archer and rebuild with the 2 workers i've got.
there's a road to the corn already.

After BW i tech pottery, not because i need it right now but it's too early for writing also and i get a discount on this tech by researching pottery first. Writing and sailing for the trade routes are next then hunting since i'll have phants in borders in the the east by then.

2240 BC Memphisb founded near gold 1s of the horse so i can borrow a clam from capital

2080 BC Pottery
1760 BC Mids go.
1640 BC writing
1440 BC sailing
1320 BC Memphis founded in the east a blocking city 2n of the cows there.
1160 BC hunting

Overview of lands 1000 bc:

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s256/dirk1302/Northeastt.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s256/dirk1302/Southwest.jpg

As you can see there are quite a bit of barb settlements in the north east, also one in the south west. this suits me fine since i can now build chariots instead of settlers, i can't wait too long but these settlements'll delay Zara from settling there. I'm running around there with a settler and a wc, i don't plan to settle right away just post settlers on good spots, settle if these spots are threatened.

Aesthetics is always a reasonable choice for trading at deity, it must be best here since we'll also have marble in the future. i'm halfway done researching it 1000 BC, as expected Darius is the fastest early researcher, he has alpha, he also got math col and currency (!) in the bargain. He'll probably be the main contender for lib.

975 BC: Hinduism and Buddhism spread, Zara ask me to join hinduism and i agree for 2 reasons, peaceful as i think Zara is i'm a bit more scared of him than of Darius who doesn't care too much about religion anyway, also refusing a request like this like this can lead to an immediate "wheooh" apart from the detoriation of relations. I'm spiritual so i can always move out.
The rest of the world doesn't seem to mind this move too much and Zara's pleased with me now.

875 BC: mysticism, delayed aest a bit to get it, i need an obelisk in Memphis to fight the cultural battle there against Zara. Thx Rusten for pointing out the mechanics, i have a much better idea now what my chances are in these sorts of fights and for the moment i can win it here.

850 BC: capture Tartar the southwest barb city 1n of corn there.

775 BC: Heliopolis founded 1n of the marble, i'd have loved to delay this one but darius was coming with a settler.

750 bc aest teched

Trade it some turns later for alpha, math and Iw. I could go lit now to go for GL. I want to have currency asap though, while trade value of this tech isn't that good this tech helps enormously for research with the second route and sell tech/resource possibility. Darius's still the only one who has it. Since i'm keeping the conquered barb cities I have 6 cities already so the second trade route is significant.

On deity currency is even more important than on other levels because you can get huge amounts of gold by selling techs and resources. Even if i lose the GL i think having currency early is worth it.GL is nice on this map but the very food rich cap guarantees a lot of early scientists anyway.

625 BC: GLH goes
575 BC: Taoism founded by Darius of course.
525 BC: Monty declares on Darius, he has to go through Pacal lands for this, probably someone came to him in his dreams saying "It has to be Darius". everything seems to be random with this guy.

450 BC: Get Currency,research is accelerating immediately.

400 BC: research poly
350 BC: academy build, looking back i must have begun running scientists 750 BC, don't know anymore what delayed me but since i had a lib in Thebes 1000 BC already maybe even earlier i might have forgotten,but probably i was especially busy with a settler for the marble, i had to hurry for that spot in the end.

325 BC research lit my tech rate is ok now around 90 bpt.
300 BC Masonry
275 BC priesthood, convert to buddhism
Convert to buddism 275 BC since everyone except Zara is running it including Monty.Monty has declared on Darius 525 AD, what i'm afraid of here is Monty seeing my power rate suddenly agreeing to peace intending to declare on me.I'm not sure the ai works that way but i've seen ais agreeing peace, finding out that they have their next victim already in mind (immediate wheooh).Occasionally that victim has been me. I actually realize writing this down that Monty probably can't reach me through persian lands after the war.At least it won't get Zara annoyed with me (cautious), hope to get him to pleased with some trading soon.

175 BC: Col
125 BC: Monarchy through trade, i also build the GL this turn, NE a few turns later with continued chopping

100 BC: monotheism for some turns of OR.
1 AD:

2 turns from CS and from my next GS, as soon as it's in i'll go pacificm and race to lib, Darius can research edu already so i have to hurry now. I'm pretty much behind the rest too but that'll change after CS is in and my scientists join the ring.

Plan from here:
War is inevitable, i have good land but it isn't nearly enough to out research these ais. I used to go for heavy cannon stacks in earlier games around 1200-1300 AD,i'll probably have to do better than that this game because i'll be greeted by cannons/rifles if i'm as late as that. I hope to strike somewhere around 1000 AD and as i need to have prebuilt a lot of units by that time i won't be teching fast. So i think i just go mil trad/gunpowder and build a cuirassiers/musket/treb stack as big as possible. Since productive workshops also come too late i'll deviate from normal procedures (for me that is) going for farms almost everywhere apart from some FP cottages. As i have expanded a lot until now i basically only have connected resouces atm but the worker count is close to ok now.

I have an alternative for the mil trad route, i could go constitution enabling me to research quickly to some more heavy weight war tech like steel/rifling. i'll need to put on scientists in this case where i really want to whip heavy so this might also be slow.

I hope to be able to wage war on Zara, if sucessful it'll win me the game i think. Otherwise i go through Darius,Pacal and Monty this has a higher chance of success but isn't a sure game winner i feel. First i have to get lib first, else this game'll become seriously difficult.

Overview 1 ad:

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s256/dirk1302/nw-1ad.jpg


http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s256/dirk1302/sw-1ad.jpg


http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s256/dirk1302/techs-1ad.jpg


http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s256/dirk1302/relations-1ad.jpg


http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s256/dirk1302/glance-1ad.jpg


Get 32 gpt from resource deals:

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s256/dirk1302/resource-deals-1ad.jpg

1720 BC -> 50 AD

I end my turn and find Pacal completing the Oracle in the city that I just discovered. Not happy about that—the Oracle has a very high culture value and will double in the early BC years too.

After healing and killing some stray archers Persepolis eventually falls--combat 2 and 3 WCs are great vs. archers. I lost most of the starting battles, but his archers suffered a lot of injuries and died on the second go.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh206/Rust1/huc10011.jpg

What a great city this is—I was drooling over the flood plains alone. The only downside is that I was hoping for a better food resource, but this will be an excellent commerce city. I will move my palace over here later on and use Thebes for specialists. I immediately see Darius for peace and get knowledge of the alphabet. I’m going to tech aesthetics anyway as I want the GL/NE up as soon as possible seeing as I have marble.

Now that I have alphabet I can finally see what everyone has and I notice Montezuma is lacking writing (only one). I decide to gift it to him (goes to pleased) as he’s not worst enemy of anyone yet. I also trade for IW as that will boost my power. I have also adopted Buddhism for relations with Pacal and Montezuma. Zara founded Judaism but I’m not settling in his face so I went for it anyway. It’s only a matter of time before Bismarck goes Buddhist as well. Furthermore I want to get Pacal to friendly by sharing religion and favourite civic (HR).

Pacal completes another wonder in the city bordering me 975 BC—this time it’s the GLH. :(

Now that Darius is taken care of I put my units to another important task; capturing barbarian cities.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh206/Rust1/huc10017.jpg

I left a lot of idle land to the east and this has allowed Zara to grab more than usual. A quick look at the victory conditions shows him having a large amount of the available land.

I decide to initiate some conflict too. While I was feeling quite safe it is a fair price for safety from Montezuma (and pathetic attacks from Darius). He likes me, but you never know. The alphabet didn’t have much trading value at this point anyway. It turned out great as Bismarck declared on Montezuma the next turn.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh206/Rust1/huc10019.jpg

Pacal completes the AP (Buddhism) 550 BC and wins the seat over me. The only one voting for me was Montezuma—I guess my Aztec games were/are appreciated—he’s my buddy now. ;)

I spawn my first GS 550 BC. I decided to settle him in Thebes but I regret this now. An academy in Persepolis would better overall as I’m going to benefit from bureaucracy there later on even if my slider is really low at this point. I got my hands on monarchy and monotheism 625 BC and revolted to HR and OR.

I meet a work boat of AC 425 BC while scouting Ethiopian territory and he has founded Hinduism (worst enemy of Pacal and vice versa). I start on the HE is Susa 350 BC.

Pacal founds Taoism in Chichen Itza 225 BC. :( Will the culture ever stop over there?

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh206/Rust1/huc10038.jpg

You can see I’m getting the Parthenon in Persepolis—I chose this location because it’s going to need a lot of culture (the Parthenon has a high cultural value) and because it has some extra forests. I started on a Palace afterwards. I finally succeed at friendly status with Pacal 125 BC and trade for theology as it will speed up paper and I might want it for relations with Zara.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh206/Rust1/huc10043.jpg

Once paper is in I trade for Zara’s extra stone and start on the UoS in Susa. Unfortunately the city suffered a slave revolt 1 or 2 turns after starting on the wonder.

I’ve been going in and out of CS and 50 AD I’m having another burst.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh206/Rust1/huc10051.jpg

Having a city like this and the spiritual trait is really powerful--this definitely is a playable map alright. :) I’m going to use that GS to lightbulb the remainder of education but I’m not sure where to go from there. I could try a deep beeline and grab biology from liberalism to go for a peaceful victory or I could finish liberalism right away, get started on the Taj Mahal and attack some civilization.

The bad news is that Pacal has completed the S. Paya and revolted to FR meaning I’m no longer friendly with him. I’m thinking of dropping Buddhism and join Judaism instead for improved relations with Zara (theocracy should bring him to friendly quickly).

My 3 main choices are to;
- go for Judaism and improve relations with Zara while conquering the west.
- stay in Buddhism and conquer Zara.
- go for FR and a peaceful victory (biology from liberalism should be possible here given Thebes and my tech lead).

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh206/Rust1/Civ4ScreenShot0043.jpg

Regarding a religious swap; Zara has converted many cities already so I won’t have a hard time getting the bonuses.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh206/Rust1/Civ4ScreenShot0044.jpg

Darius, Bismarck and Montezuma are still going at it so I’m perfectly safe from the west—my eyes have been fixed upon Zara this entire set looking for SoDs and being prepared to accept any demand.

@Bleys,

Looked at the save you're doing fine indeed, resembles my peaceful game. You've staked off some more land to the west, i managed to get the deer city in the north east. You'll need currency fast otherwise your research'll cave in.


@Rusten,

I suggest Fireaxis brings back civ3's sid level as deity seems to be too easy for you, Snaaty can keep you company there. Maybe i'll introduce handicaps for you both on the next installment of this thread :p.


@Sleepless

That's a nice block on Zara, you'll be strong after currency.

Looks like an interesting game so I thought I would have a go. Up to 1000 BC:

The starting location looks ok. Settle in place. Build worker->warrior->rax. Improve corn, cow, and then road until we can pasture horses. Settler whipped at size 5 after rax, then WCs and eventually a library.

Research- AH->Mining->BW->Pottery->Writing->Alphabet (via trade w/ 1 turn left, traded for all other previous techs)->Currency (unfinished).

T1- Settle; warrior goes east.
T2-18- exploring, huts give 31 gold and a map.
T19- Steal worker from Zara.
T25- Warrior dies to barb archer; brave worker must go on ahead by himself up the coast :eek:.
T30-45- first WCs produced, find a barb city by the pigs. Find Darius, who is much closer than Zara.
T46- WC dies to barb archer on corn at 96% odds :(
T53- Take barb city by the pigs.
T60?- healed WCs take Persian capital, 6 WC vs. 3 archers.
T68- Take Persian city by floodplains. Persia gives alpha and hunting for peace.
T70- peace with Zara for alphabet as his stack is knocking on the door.

3 turns from academy in the capital or perhaps philosophy bulb.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b208/cjh2b/Civ4ScreenShot0001.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b208/cjh2b/Civ4ScreenShot0003.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b208/cjh2b/Civ4ScreenShot0002.jpg

@Killercane,

Convincing, an early rush really seems to work well on this map :goodjob:.

@Rusten,

I suggest Fireaxis brings back civ3's sid level as deity seems to be too easy for you, Snaaty can keep you company there. Maybe i'll introduce handicaps for you both on the next installment of this thread :p.

Or they could simply nerf War Chariots. :)

I don't want to take too much credit here-- this rush is a one-time thing. Darius being slow in hooking up copper coupled with being blocked in by Pacal made the rush much more effective than most other rushes would've been. I had some tough luck with combat odds early on, but overall this was a pretty lucky break for me. You always grab any luck/opportunities you get on deity and pursue it to the max, that's nothing special, but this was a little over the top. The starting area is great by itself, but adding Darius' lands to that makes it even better.

@rusten

given the map, probably zara will end up with over 30% of the land - so eventually you'll have to take him?

with parth probably you'll keep everything up to the forested tile 2sw of persepolis - but pasagrade when chicken pizza will pop. 4th ring is gonna be a sad city :p

couldn't you bribe monty on pacal instead of darius? I mean, he has xbows and crap, but good ole' monty... spams good :p

@Killercane,

Convincing, an early rush really seems to work well on this map :goodjob:.

Well you play the hand you are dealt. Building special chariots such as Immortals or War Chariots gives on average a 40% discount on settlers, equivalent to the discount the AIs receive. What this means is you expect 2 archers in a city, and you expect to lose 2 units in taking the city (60 hammers, as opposed to 100 hammers for building the new city with a settler). Often, your cost benefit ratio is even better.

Really this game is a follow the breadcrumbs type of game. Starting techs/UU means you really have to go after AH first. Once horses are found basically in your city radius, and multiple neighbors nearby, you really have to follow the trail to Persepolis as opposed to Zara's cultural defenses. Pacal is not only far away but he has a resourceless spear UU.

I notice some people founded Memphis one tile east of mine by horses. This gains you really nothing besides wasting a 2 food tile when a desert hill is available. The only thing you can do with that configuration is help the capital with some cottages but I think you want to move your capital regardless in this game and make Thebes the National Epic city.

Thanks for the encouragement Dirk, I think its difficult for us "lower level" players to accurately assess our own situations on these highest levels. I always feel like I am losing badly, I look at the tech screen, or the size of the AIs cities, or the troop counts they have, and think "wow, I suck, I am getting killed". The reality is that its important to "maintain" until you can get to the point in the game where you can turn the tide. Rustens comments about early Barracks are a perfect example of the different mindset. For me, its "chop out those Barracks, get those Axes and Cats CR I out of the gate", which is probably a stronger play on Monarch and Emperor, but I see now that adding up the hammers from building my Barracks equals a bunch more War Chariots, which would make me "appear" stronger to the AIs, thus perhaps gaining me more of the precious time I need to turn that tide.

Almost done with the NC XI game, Catherine, I played Emp/Epic and felt like I was winning from the get go (of course, there is an explanation for that, heh, its currently a secret only shared by a few of us, LOL, see my

don't worry...

just don't check too often the tech screen in the bcs - it's usually so depressing :p

or check, but take it with a grain of salt ;)

^ Indeed, i only really watch for them to get Philo,CS,Paper and Edu as they count directly to lib. They're miles ahead usually on the bottom of the tech tree but this doesn't matter because you get most of this in trade later. This is also the case on immortal but not as much as here.

@Bleys, well i haven't got that much experience on deity either, played 3 games from the forum, a ridiculously easy lonely heart start as Darius on a huge island with warmongers on the continents that didn't research faster than emperor, A Monty diplomat start which was winnable by just going peaceful.

I got some confidence really from Flo7's deity pangae challenge, i was able to take down Hammurabi in the renaissance and Han in a modern war, i typically played this game as i would play an immortal game and it proved to me that the same strats that i learned there are still viable on deity only you have to plan them with more precision.

My offline experience hasn't been that successful, got rushed by the Zulu's once who came from the other site of the world finally reaching me 1000 bc, not much i could do because he apparently had it in for me well before 2000 bc really. Lost a lib race to Ghandi who took it 300 a and was unreachable on a big island together with MM whom he vassalized. in another one i got rushed by Toku 500 ad, diplo was unmanagable there because i couldn't set any one on him and couldn't get him to more than cautious, i was doing well in that game though and just should have built some more units. I'm definitely more sloppy playing offline though as you can see from my start here which also started as an offline game.

Advice from Rusten and Snaaty about getting power as high as possible is very valuable as these early rushes on you and needing to regen is one of the most off putting things from playing deity for me. I certainly have to take building some units more serious in these cases where the diplo situation is not stable. I'm still interested in that exact formula as to how the power rating helps, need to delve into the Xml/python code for that maybe.

@Killercane, spoiler to +/- 1 ad.

You're quite right about playing what you're offered, i don't like playing early rushes that much and as of yet also lack the experience as to if/when a deity ai can be rushed. You Rusten and somewhat later also Snaaty proved convincingly that this was a good tactic here. Going peaceful is certainly doable as can be seen from the other games as the map is very generous but it doesn't lead to such great positions as you've got.

ok, finally got some time to play few turns of this game:
-1500 BC


-settled in place and started with a worker and AH (I was thinking about going fishing first, but decided against it as the capital has enough food anyway and AH will also reveal horses for WC)

-the warrior went exploring to the east and besides finding two huts (one gives me 42, the other AH just two turns before researching it :rolleyes:) he met ZY, who seems to be quite far away to the SE

-OTOH darius came from the east and he seems to be quite close, there is very nice city spot just 4(5)E from thebes, but I must hurry to get there before darius


after the worker I went with warrior-worker-WC-settler (for the gold spot)

after AH I went for mining-BW in order to get some production and the pottery-writing-fishing-hunting


-I also get a nice event:


http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn33/C3H5O9N3/Civ4ScreenShot0001.jpg

It isn't much, but it comes quite handy when you get it that early.



Memphis got founded on the turn 46, but Darius already founded susa few turns earlier;

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn33/C3H5O9N3/Civ4ScreenShot0002-1.jpg

I really hope I'll get this wheat before Darius does.

...and thanks to the creative trait, I get the boarder pop 5 turns later; and on the same turn as Darius
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn33/C3H5O9N3/Civ4ScreenShot0003.jpg


huh, let's just hope I get to 100 culture before him.


Few turns later Darius even founded confu, but fortunately not in Susa :woohoo:


turn 60 I founded another city in the SE:

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn33/C3H5O9N3/Civ4ScreenShot0006-1.jpg


quite far away from Thebes, but 2 x ivory, a FP, copper, cow a river and a good blocking site towards ZY.


on the turn 63 I got one more city;

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn33/C3H5O9N3/Civ4ScreenShot0005.jpg

a ex-barbarian city defended by 3 archers, I lost a WC, but also got a worker and a 10xp. WC for the HE.





I met all the AIs until now, so this seems to be a pangea-style map. I don't really like pangeas, but this map looks quite nice so far.


I'm planning to cripple my economy a bit more a get some more cities up
(I already got another settler for the marble-clams city SW of Thebes).
5 cities in 1500 BC is quite a lot, but the gold mine definitely helps and I'm always somehow afraid on deity that if I don't get the cities up ASAP, the AIs will grab the sites before me.





If you have any comments/tips about my game, I'll be glad to hear them as always have the feeling that I'm doing something wrong when playing deity.

@qwertz, you posted the initial start.Doesn't matter that much as the actual situation is pretty clear from you're report. Saves get more valuable later anyway as the situation becomes more complicated.

Good start, you founded the eastern city just like me 2n of cow, there are some people
that founded 3n, getting the copper there but risking losing the cows, see how that works out. I didn't have a chance for the wheat in the west, it's very important for that city so you might research mysticism next for an early obelisk. As for city grabbing, i also prioritized building settlers but i just posted them on good spots to save on maintainance. Began to settle more spots actually after currency.

@rusten

given the map, probably zara will end up with over 30% of the land - so eventually you'll have to take him?

with parth probably you'll keep everything up to the forested tile 2sw of persepolis - but pasagrade when chicken pizza will pop. 4th ring is gonna be a sad city :p

couldn't you bribe monty on pacal instead of darius? I mean, he has xbows and crap, but good ole' monty... spams good :p
Neh, I shouldn't have any trouble teching faster than Zara with this great land (he has some tundra/desert). If I leave him be I'll probably gobble up the west too adding even more research to my empire. Furthermore he's not financial and he hasn't made any dangerous wonders (UoS, SM, Colossus (AI works a lot of coastal tiles) and the AP). Pacal and I have been/are getting those so I don't think he's a big threat to me. He doesn't have many religions either slowing down any culture attempt.

Pasargadae will be fine--all the important tiles are nowhere near Chichen Itza so I'm getting much more hidden culture than he is. I have monasteries, temples and a library there too.

Regarding bribing; if you're thinking of when I bribed Montezuma into war with Darius it was my only choice. I didn't have enough techs to get Montezuma onto Pacal at the time and they've been going at it ever since meaning no further bribes necessary.

I decided to dive right back into this game (no, I havent finished NC XI or MC III or Mad Scientists All-Sury game or the Hatty LHC yet!), and already I had some interesting things happen, and I have a question.

575 BC - 525 BC, with a question about trading techs:
I opened the save, and hit enter, and got a message that Zara would trade Maths. Since I hadnt traded him Aesthetics yet, I checked it out, and sure enough, he gave me Maths + 10 gold for Aesthetics. Then, the following turn, this happened!

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Bleys_bucket/Hatty%20Diety/Civ4ScreenShot0191.jpg

Zara GIFTED me Alphabet!! Wow, Coolness, so I check the trade screen, and see that Darius will trade Monotheism, so I ask him if he can "Spare" it, and sure enough!

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Bleys_bucket/Hatty%20Diety/Civ4ScreenShot0192.jpg

SWEET! I also traded Aesthetics to Augustus for Med and Priest.

This series of events is the basis for my question. Should I be doing this much trading this early? I am usually a pretty big miser with my techs, I trade and sell them later in the game when I am well ahead, and such, but I am wondering if I should even be bothering with techs like Med and Priest. I generally suck at diplomacy, its the weakest part of my game, am I risking much with all this trading and asking for gifts?

SWEET! I also traded Aesthetics to Augustus for Med and Priest.



I am no Deity expert, but

In my books this is something you should NOT do. Are you familiar with WFYABTA?
This map is pangaea like, you know everyone, which means everyone knows that you received these techs via trade. Every AI counts how many techs you receive from other AIs and will stop trading with you once you reach a limit. It means that it is better to trade for expensive techs.

While it may be sometimes ok to trade for organized religion (not expensive, but not dirt cheap), I would definitely not trade Aesthetics for med and priest.
On this map I would avoid both these trades.
BTW, if the real experts think I am wrong, I would love to hear the reasons. Thanks

Long time lurker here - haven't figured out how to post images but will try later on. Have enjoyed everyone's write-ups and taken a lot of instruction from them. I have always thought that the one indispensible trait on Deity is spiritual, b/c at this level winning the game is as much using the AI against itself as it is managing your own civ.

I had a go at this and would probably have lost in a space race to Zara (quit @ about 1800AD behind by several components w/Zara needing only stasis) the first time after rushing Darius - Zara had so much good land and a handy blocker mountain to keep Augustus off his back. I thought about going down with a guns blazing nuke/EP strategy against Zara but decided to replay b/c there were some ways to optimize my strategy to weaken Zara.

Anyway, second time around I have strong position @1400 AD or so; basic strategy was following:

1. Rushed Darius and took two good cities - could not take Persepolis, as the extra hammers for the chariots went for eastern bound settlers.

2. Got most of the good city sites from Zara north of the jungle. This kept him from swallowing up the whole eastern continent and building unstoppable momentum. In the first game, Zara had INFANTRY c. 1200 AD. That is hard to deal with.

3. Kept Darius as a buffer from Pacal - several trades to Biz/Monty/Pacal for lesser techs and war with Darius. Buddied up with Zara and used AC as my main tech trade partner - AC is no threat except for cultural, and Pacal took most of his wonders. Biz is a sleeping giant, vassalized Monty after a backstab attack while Monty was pre-occupied with Darius.

4. Liberalism strategy was self research Nationalism, had ridiculous amounts of GS from Thebes after building GL and NE there. Built Taj around 600 AD - traded Nationalism around for tech parity. Took Constitution from Liberalism around 700 AD, started on Democracy, built SOL around 1150 AD w/some chop help. Moved palace to Heliopolis (built in river/ivory site north of Zara's junlge), built Ironworks there w/Bureacracy. Still holding a Great Artist and two GS for two late game Golden Ages while I get my space infrastructure in place.

5. Lots of diplomatic maneuvering. Biz came and took out Persepolis and a couple of junk Persian cities with rifles and cavs around 1200 AD, but culture pressure from me and Pacal have him squeezed into some one tile wonders. Biz and Zara were going at it for a while in my territory, but Zara gave up after getting a 40+ mace/treb/knight/cuirasser stack crushed to the west of Thebes (Zara had taken Darius as a vassal around 300 AD but was unable to hold off Biz). I share Hinduism with Zara and entered into a DP with him around 1300 AD, so I feel fairly secure on my eastern borders.

6. Where to go -

Biz is pleased, but has good military techs and is # 1 in the power rating. Things are not good between he and Pacal and I expect Biz will attack soon - I want to be sure it is Pacal and not me and Zara, since I would bear the brunt of that. I have Biology/Physics on most of others (Biz has Physics) and am researching Electricity. Zara/AC/Biz have Railroad and I have hit WFYABTA w/everyone except Zara and AC (and AC won't trade anything good). Plan is to incite war b/t Pacal and Biz, grab some of Pacal's cities, assess whether I can get an edge on Biz and crush one of his stacks and blunt his ambitions, or otherwise, turn Biz towards AC if possible and away from Zara and me. When Biz gets to Industrialism, taking him on militarily is out of the question w/Panzers, so meta-strategy is to beeline to Internet/Space Elevator and get into space, while making nice with Zara. All EP is turned to Zara, who will probably be my main space competition if I can keep Biz's war machine directed elsewhere. Biz and Zara are both formidable late game foes, but there are worse (Darius, Charles, Peter come to mind for space, or Pacal/Huayna cultural), and I think I can take them on in a space race.

7. Mistakes -

a. I spent a lot of time researching steel after getting democracy, thinking I would quickly cannon rush Darius and then relieve Pacal of a few of his good cities while holding off Zara (Darius' master) in the south w/a rifle pillage/attrition war. Built about ten cannons when Biz took Persepolis w/a stack I didn't notice in time - research would have been better spent to get one of the Communism/Physics bonuses; got beat to both, Zara taking Communism, Biz taking Physics. Maybe silver lining is upgrade those cannons to Artillery and take on Pacal, but that would require deviation from Internet beeline - not sure I can afford that.

b. If I could have taken Persepolis in my initial rush, I would have. I decided against trying and used my chariot forces to take down some barb cites for $ instead. Rusten, it has turned into a great city for you - however, I think I would prefer my position in the east to having Persepolis and the diplomatic issues with Pacal. You may be able to take Zara down in your game with a Cav rush (in which case you would have the far better position as compared to my game), but in my game (and in my experience generally) he is no pushover. If he gets to Rifling and upgrades his Oromos, forget it. I decided against trying it since his good cities are so far south that it would be difficult to hit him hard enough initially, and getting into a prolonged war with him is only to Biz/Pacal's benefit.

c. I spent too long in Merc - wanted to try and slow down the tech pace which is off the charts even for Deity - and am now trying to build a better sceience/production base with Rep/FS/Emanc/Communism/OR to gear up for a space race. I would go to Free Religion, but I want to keep Zara at friendly.

d. Doing things the second time around always leaves a taint b/c of map knowledge, but hey, it was more fun than nuking Zara and dealing with payback nukes (and probably losing anyway if/when he pulled in Biz and Pacal on me).

I'll try to figure out how to post pictures so that I can show summary screens.

A few points about tech trading/receiving,

On deity WFYABTA strikes very early so which tech do you trade for and which will you research yourself? It depends on the map and the other ais a lot. Generally I tend to draw the line with techs like IW in the early game if i have a decent economy but sometimes i trade for cheaper techs, especially those that'll help me get GL in time such as poly or even masonry once, i should have planned better though in those cases.I also have traded for sailing once, my economy being in a suspect state in which it cost 8 turns to research, since this tech immediately helped i think that was ok.

After 1 AD i typically trade for techs i need and which cost about the same as Col.
Calender,MC, compass are good examples, if i need it and haven't got it i'd certainly
research something like mono myself.

After lib i often find myself in a position that i haven't got construction yet, i research that myself in 1-2 turns, sometimes research feudalism myself too if i can get it in 2-3 but definitely trade for guilds/engineering even if i can get them in 4 turns since turns are so important at that time.

I have a feeling that while i take WFYBTA into account seriously i might still be a bit too generous.

On this map trade info about the leaders,don't open spoiler if you haven't met everyone.

Bismarck,Pacal and Monty stop trading after you received 5 techs
Darius and Zara after 10
Augustus after 15

Augustus'll trade with us for a long time, the others'll shut the door on us at some point
unless we get them to friendly. So caution is needed here with trading/receiving techs.

Hi glnbrm, good to see you join and welcome to the forums.

Can you put a date above your spoiler as it concerns your whole game? I'll read it once i have finished my own game.Alternatively you can divide your post in blocks as 4000bc-1 ad, 1ad-1000 ad for instance so we can read them earlier.

If you're familiar with photobucket, posting pictures here is very easy.

silverbullet:
Good tips. Yes, I am familiar with WFYABTA, but being a Monarch-Emp player, I find it rarely comes into play. In fact, I cannot remember the last time I was in WFYABTA when I actually wanted a tech, even on Emperor.

Do gifts and "can you spare this for a friend" requests count toward WFYA? I know that selling techs for straight cash do not count, how about buying them? I fear I may have really messed up my ability to trade later in this game, because I popped a Scientist, bulbed Compass (all my cities are coastal except 1, so I figured I would want the TR from a Harbor) and I traded it around a bit. I got Currency, Monarchy, and Construction for it from 3 different AIs, so that was worth it, I think, but the previous trades like Med and Priest for Aesthetics was not good.

I am also annoyed about my timing. I had 3 forests pre-chopped, and the Marble hooked up when I hit Lit, and the very next turn the GL was BIADL. ARGHHHH!! This might not have happened if I hadnt been so stupid about trading Aesth around, right? Man, Diety is brutally hard. I am not really sure I like it, to be perfectly frank. I am at .3 power with Zara, and .4 with Darius, thank GOODNESS we share a religion! I am about to culture flip one of Darius' cities, but I cant get any culture on Zara, for the reasons that I love to play Zara myself, that stupid Steele, I personally think its a MONSTER UB.
Back to the grind, LOL, I am not sure I am having fun. I dont see myself being able to equalize, despite a very strong start. Most of the AIs already have LBs, and I am nowhere near Trebs or Maces. I doubt I can win the Lib race now that I lost the GL. I am slipping farther and farther back, shame too, because I had a very nice start.

Two failures:

Okay first shot was a REX towards Zara (looking to nab the cows/ivory and stone/seafood blocking line at a minimum). I had the warrior on a hill fog busting and two settler/warchariots out. My first settler/warchariot dies to two barb archers in transit. The second founds a city at the ivory/barbs location which becomes Mecca for all the barbs in the east (Zara took GW). I have no less than 9 barbs close in on said city and bring down the combat II/medic WC (the warrior died to barbs before the city was founded).

My second shot was a big gamble running the theo -> paper -> education bulb/oracle/double bulb shot (I've managed to get this to work a few times on immortal, never on deity). I tech mining -> myst (hut) -> BW -> meditation -> priesthood -> fill out to monotheism if possible. I'm running two priests off the obelisk with their gold keeping me at 100% research. Someone else completes the Oracle in 2400ish BC. I might be able to pull off a RE game by bulbing out Theo, paper, and DR but I figured my odds were just too low; also I have close borders and a fun -1 random event making a persian war quite likely (all three early religions are far away). Zara, of course, is now headed for becoming a monster size.

silverbullet:
Good tips. Yes, I am familiar with WFYABTA, but being a Monarch-Emp player, I find it rarely comes into play. In fact, I cannot remember the last time I was in WFYABTA when I actually wanted a tech, even on Emperor.

Do gifts and "can you spare this for a friend" requests count toward WFYA? I know that selling techs for straight cash do not count, how about buying them? I fear I may have really messed up my ability to trade later in this game, because I popped a Scientist, bulbed Compass (all my cities are coastal except 1, so I figured I would want the TR from a Harbor) and I traded it around a bit. I got Currency, Monarchy, and Construction for it from 3 different AIs, so that was worth it, I think, but the previous trades like Med and Priest for Aesthetics was not good.

I am also annoyed about my timing. I had 3 forests pre-chopped, and the Marble hooked up when I hit Lit, and the very next turn the GL was BIADL. ARGHHHH!! This might not have happened if I hadnt been so stupid about trading Aesth around, right? Man, Diety is brutally hard. I am not really sure I like it, to be perfectly frank. I am at .3 power with Zara, and .4 with Darius, thank GOODNESS we share a religion! I am about to culture flip one of Darius' cities, but I cant get any culture on Zara, for the reasons that I love to play Zara myself, that stupid Steele, I personally think its a MONSTER UB.
Back to the grind, LOL, I am not sure I am having fun. I dont see myself being able to equalize, despite a very strong start. Most of the AIs already have LBs, and I am nowhere near Trebs or Maces. I doubt I can win the Lib race now that I lost the GL. I am slipping farther and farther back, shame too, because I had a very nice start.
Any tech you receive from an AI, whether a gift or a price for peace or part of a capitulation deal counts towards WFYABTA.

Losing the GL is not a big deal on this map. You are spiritual and have a high food capital. Running many scientists under Caste+pacifism should not be a problem. Build the NE in Thebes.

- 1505AD



First the good news. Managed to be the first to Lib (which makes a change for me :)) and took Nat. Started building the Taj but forgot to cancel my marble deal with Zara till to late and missed out by 2 turns. :blush:

My long term plan had been to attack Darius (Montes master) with drafted rifles. First to rifling, drafted army then attacked Darius. Managed to take most of his cities eventually but not before Monte (bit of luck there had AP vote to stop the war with Monte pass) had broken away and Darius capitulated to Zara.

Not very good bearing in mind my army on Zara's borders consisted of 1 WC and 1 Axe :lol:. Luckily with the use of the draft/whip I haven't lost any cities yet!!! The real negative side is I'm so far behind in tech now there is now real way for me to catch up even if I could get peace with Zara. My war weariness is sky high. My poor cities have been drafted/whipped senseless and I think I'm making about 13 bulb points per round at a minus figure. :lol:

I will finish this game with the aim of not being wiped out. So still looking for my first win on deity. ;)

Quick thought about the people who rushed Darius. Not only did you get his land you cut down the AI tech rate considerably. I managed to keep up until 1000AD then because of WFYBTA and being unable to trade the AI zoomed past me. After I lose this game I might try it again and rush Darius and see if that helps.

since we're at trading and such :p

how do you trade on normal speed? What I mean - I usually consider a tech to be normally researched(non tanked econ.) in 15 turns; that means 5 turns on normal.

when I give edu I'm used to do something like 1 turn in music, 1 in guilds, 1 in eng. and let's say 1 in... dunno theo or optics.(let's say immortal, as probably on deity I'd research music and theo by hand). And then do somethin' like edu for guilds and music with a and edu for eng and optics with b. I get max. since it's a tech in which I invested something and etc. Obviously, not necessarily edu. - any backfill.

But on normal, music already takes... 2 turns; if I invest 1, I researched half... so why increase wfybta pointlessly? If I don't invest anything, the deals are quite crappy. What's the optimal approach(being the greedy me, I noticed I ended up self researching too many things and dropping behind despite obviously having better gnp - there are that many turns apparently... ;) )?

Or something like - dunno, constitution; I want rp, chemistry and dunno... astro. With 0 part research I'd have to add cash to each deal even if those are known by all ais and I hold monopoly on mine. But if you invest 1 turn in each, maybe 2 of them just researched half of your tech in the those 3-4 turns. You adding cash to the deal is obviously subpar due to multipliers on beakers, not on gold.

so - most of the cases - part research 1 turn or suck up a crappier deal?(again, in general, obviously there's no fixed rule)

I take pretty crappy deals between lib and the first renaissance war. I've noticed too often that most techs are more or less traded even in the end until scientific method, after that some ais run away fast to assembly line, combustion or electricity-radio leaving others in the dust. Since speed reaching a military advantage tech is essential and research rate often falters due to building/upgrading units priority, i take anything i need this period also in crappy deals without researching one or 2 turns into things. I do tend to trade economic techs like liberalism or even better economics away keeping techs like gunpowder, printing press, replaceable parts and rifling to myself. If i don't do the crappy deal they will get these sort of techs anyway in a not so crappy deal from another ai eventually.

If i'm going peaceful i'm usually well ahead in tech at least on immortal and i'm very careful with trading, not giving them more than needed so i research some turns into techs to avoid helping the others by giving them huge deals. Also i beeline for really expensive techs in this case, backfilling the others. I'm more careful about the WFYABTA in this sort of game too.

50 AD -> 700 AD

Nobody has paper yet so I decide to go for a big liberalism tech and research nationalism by myself for the Taj Mahal. I also decided to go for Judaism and it works like a charm--I keep my pleased status with Pacal and Bismarck, gain pleased with Zara but go to annoyed with Montezuma (fortunately Montezuma is too backwards to pose any threat at this point).

Get a vote to stop the war against Montezuma 200 AD. I decide to vote yes as I don’t want him becoming a vassal of Bismarck (he already has Darius as one). I put a swordsman on duty looking for Aztec SoDs coming my way. I also reinforce my western border cities with some maces/pikes later on.

Quick look at my empire and demographics.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh206/Rust1/huc20004.jpg

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh206/Rust1/huc20005.jpg

Pacal asked me for paper 375 AD. While I normally love giving into demands this was a solid no on my part. I don’t want him getting any ideas of liberalism into his head (at least not yet). I’m going to hold on to paper this game. I still did some