:) hi, i have made two scenarios by today, and already posted them, what i found is that some people want to take them and change them, i guess is ok to make them better........but they only change easy stuff!, they add units and change the natioons names! and then they post it...and if they are nice like Luiz gave me some credit which is ok, but some other person jsut told me that he didnt like my WW2 map and said he will change it, he is just going to earase some units here and add some there etc, adn post it! i know that some people will tell me well wahts wrong w/ that? well lets look at it in another way, people how have made some decent mods map etc, have taken a lot of time and patience to make them (it is veeery boring to plcae cities add irrigation and add railroads and stuff, tahts 90 % of the work and they come and take it, i say there should be a law in the site taht sais that u cant take anothers scenario maps etsc w/out their permision at all, but is ok to change it and as use it privately, well thats waht i think from my point of view who have made some scenarios such as WW3 and WW2 european front
tell me what u think or e-mail me or something:egypt:

What you are referring to is more copyright law than patent law, but you may actually have some rights to say that your custom maps and scenarios can only be changed with your permission.

The trouble comes with enforcement. You probably aren't going to shell out money to bring suit against somebody for a scenario that neither party is making any money off of. That pretty much leaves things on the honor system.

However, that shouldn't stop you from pasting "no changes without permission" on any post of your stuff, just to at least tug at peoples' concience.

well i wasnt talking about lawsuits, just taht if that happens, to tell the person who moves teh stuff around in this site so he or she would erase it

I don't think you actually have any legally enforceable situation here as you didn't register with the copy right office (blah). This is just completely based on honor system. The best we could really hope for is whoever that is going to modify the scenario that we made will at least give credit where credit is due.

yeah, or at least to tell u and that the change he or she has done to the scenario map etc, was worth it and not small things

You posted this material in, basically, the "public domain" and encouraged people to download it. If they mod it and repost it (which has been done with many fan-created maps), there is probably not much you can do except hope they are honorable people and give you credit for all of the "hump work".

If they don't credit you. You can always flame em like a dragon
[plasma]

yeah, or at least i hope

it would be nice if people give credit to those that post it first. :)

I dunno, I think I'd rather see him flame somebody

I change almost every mod I pull off of here. I have yet to post any of my changes though and I do belive that I would have the common courtesy to say my mod is an edited version of "Jimmy the Chickens" mod. We should all respect one another's work but I do not see that we should have to seek permission to tweak a rule her or there from someone else's mod.

I have posted some stories over in the stories section with my edited mods and I belive that I have given credit to the original modder.

No, permission isn't needed (public forum) by law. Courtesy? Credit ought to be given. A person may choose to copyright items, but it may be cost-prohibitive. I wonder what Civfanatics' opinion is?

Originally posted by stalin006
well i wasnt talking about lawsuits, just taht if that happens, to tell the person who moves teh stuff around in this site so he or she would erase it

Well since you used a copyright product made and distributed by Firaxis/Infrogrames to make your mod in the first place, you don't have any rights to it at all.

Interesting...
So you are saying you have no rights to anything you design that has to do with Civ3? That doesn't sound right, if there is artistic value in what you have created in the case of maps, animation, how can someone say you don't have right to it?

Think about it, you come up with a utility, make a map with it... using unique graphics (like snoops for example etc)... now just because you geared it towards Civ3, shouldn't mean you can't copyright it.. heck you didn't even use anything that Civ3 game you... and the fact is lots of people are interchanging all kinds of stuff all the time...

I think the key is when you start making money that is a no go cause more than likely you have used something Firaxis has given you to come up with the final product... if not though your home free...

let me give you another example..
lets say you made unit icons, animation a whole bunch of stuff...
just cause people can take that put it in the game doesnt mean you cannot copyright it - thats absurd..

another example...
lets say I have a copyright on a certain logo... hmm... like the McDonalds "arches -M"

if you made a map in the shape of those arches does that mean you did not infridge on McDonalds Copyright?

Willem: he bought the product, and he's not giving it away, he's giving a product of the product away.

I believe that the question of the 'minor details' is a quite controversial one in actual physical for-profit patents... people just change tiny things and they can get away with stealing an invention.. sometimes they change an invention and claim they made it first.. and guest what? THEY WIN!

This is a very big problem in Starcraft actually.. most of the scenarios [single and multiplayer..] are modded from the original, and they don't even change the **NAME!!!!!** So people start using scenario protectors so others can't change their scens.

I think that as a moral issue, however, you should give credit where it's due but people should be allowed to change mods.. in a moral sense of course.. can't enforce it in any other sense..

wait, i wasnt talking about commercial copyrights, i was jsut saying that it would be nice if people told u about the fact that they are posting it and taht they should give u credit

I just put a copyright on my world map :D

after spending months and endless amount of time why not for a few bucks... I dont want anyone using my map without my permission - its not a money thing.. more of a respect one - and sorry to say not all people are honorable...

How'd you do that?

I always copyright my material by putting a (c) [my name] next to it. That's good if you have witnesses.. but I've never actually copyrighted anything.

Doesn't it takes months and months to get the approval?

Government of Canada - one time they worked good - and fast :D

I filled out a form, gave them my credit card number and I am done...

cost a few bucks but I thought... with the amount of time I spent on this... not getting paid.. its the creative element that I want to protect... so why not?

my time is worth money... and god knows I have spent way more time on my map than I should of... I have no probs people using my map, but give credit where its deserved you know?

mmmh...............again i am not talking about legal copyrights, i was jsut saying that it would be nice if people told u about the fact that they are posting it and taht they should give u credit

Oh. Right. Must not have anything else to do. :) [er the Canadian government that is.. I'm as much a fanatic as the next..]

Originally posted by teturkhan
Interesting...
So you are saying you have no rights to anything you design that has to do with Civ3? That doesn't sound right, if there is artistic value in what you have created in the case of maps, animation, how can someone say you don't have right to it?



If a mod uses the programming code provided by Firaxis, or any graphics, sound FX etc., then no one can claim a copyright since they have already done so. It is essentially their product, which they are gracious enough to allow other people to manipulate for their own enjoyment. In legal terms, it would be classified as "Fair Use", with Firaxis/Infrogames having sole title to any copyrights.

It would be similar to having someone hire me to design a web site for them. Although I do the work and come up with all the art, I was commisioned by them to do so, giving them title to the copyright, not me.

Another example would be if I worked for someone and produced a web site using their equipment and resources etc. The copyright title would fall to my employer, not to me

Two words: Win-Doze.

Originally posted by teturkhan
Government of Canada - one time they worked good - and fast :D

I filled out a form, gave them my credit card number and I am done...

cost a few bucks but I thought... with the amount of time I spent on this... not getting paid.. its the creative element that I want to protect... so why not?

my time is worth money... and god knows I have spent way more time on my map than I should of... I have no probs people using my map, but give credit where its deserved you know?

That's one of the silliest things I've ever heard of! Don't you have anything better to do with your money? And it probably wouldn't stand a chance in court if Firaxis ever contested it.

Why don't you ask the mods to do something about it. Not give them anymore work but if you find it and its yours then pm or email the mod in charge of the creation and customization forum to do something. Maybe go to the site feed back forum and post a thread on this topic with suggestions about what to do and ask for them to emplament some form of control on that kinda thing. it should work to keep them from posting it here changed but would not cause any problems with those people who just want to download it a twik it for home use.

wait a minute... I am not working for Firaxis.. nor am I seeking to make money from this so I don't see how I would infridge on their copyright... I am copyrighting my artistic creation - so that other people can't take and run with it...

Furthermore.. if I buy lets say Paintshop pro, make some designs with it, does Paintshop Pro own and have right to what I made?

They were nice enough to let me buy their program right?
thats nonsense...

Silliest thing you ever heard? really? I thought it silly to labor for hours on end coming up with a map I will make no money from... but I did anyway... and so do a lot of other people... time is money... so why not spend a few bucks to protect your work? Thats not foolish, thats smart. Also it has to do with the indvidual, depends on how important it is to you... for me the decision was simple... I worked my ass off, and be it a good or bad map - it is my creation.. I don't mind spending a few bucks to protect it...

BTW, people can download it, that is fine.. its up to me what is permissible and what is not - I would say have fun with it, but give credit where it is deserved.

In the US, all that is necessary for someone to claim a copyright is to have produced an original piece of art, literature, etc. place a copyright symbol on it next to your name and the year.

No agency to register with. No money to pay. No witness necessary. I have been doing this for the past 20 years. Don't confuse this with a patent(Invention) or a trademark(McDonald's Logo), which are both more complex and cost money.

I don't know what the law is in Canada, but I wonder if teturkhan didn't get scamed.

Willem, Windows Paint is also a copyrighted product. I can certainly copyright art produced by paint. IMHO CivIII is simply the paint. I don't think the owners of CivIII would disagree.

Respectfully,

Greg

(Stalin - contact the moderator, people should give credit where credit is due, copyright or not)

This is taken from the Civfanatics Homepage
(reference is made to copyright material)

Greg - Up here in Canada there was a fee, it was minor and no it was not a patent - you say you can do it for free in the US? And here I was praising my government!


Submit your work to Firaxis!
posted by Thunderfall at 8:28 PM

Below is a notice to all Civ3 mod makers from Firaxis QA manager Barry Caudill:
We are looking for submissions of items that may be included in Play the World. This includes scenarios, mods, maps, graphics mods, units, Leader Heads, etc. Please send all submissions to civ3mod@firaxis.com for consideration. Please zip all required files together for easy transmission and send only material that is original (i.e. no copyrighted material). The deadline for submissions is August 9th.

The August 9th deadline is only a little more than two weeks from now, so act quickly! :)

Teturkhan - The canadian gov't is great!! If one actually plans on enforcing a copyright, I'm sure the small fee and legal registration are worth it.

Greg

and it was a little more than a few bucks...
whatever - at least now I can say I have a copyright on something :D

well i kind of agree w/ teturkhan, oh i already sent my scenariods to fireaxis. i guess tahts the only way to fully claim is urs if it getsin the PTW expansion

Greg your right, it doesn not require money to copyright something, but if you want to register it does. Don't ask me the legalities of it, seems that if lets say you want to pursue an action against someone then you need to register it. Heck with that, i want to DE-register and my money back! ;)

The good old Canadian Government wonder if they would do that for me? :D

hope so!!! if so Beers on ME!!!

Hery Firaxis, you can have all rights to my mod and future maps and scenarios if you give me a way to turn off Culture Flipping. OK? :p

Man Zouave you don't miss a chance to plug in your Culture Flipping do ya! :lol:

Your one persistent person I will give ya that! :goodjob:

Originally posted by teturkhan
wait a minute... I am not working for Firaxis.. nor am I seeking to make money from this so I don't see how I would infridge on their copyright... I am copyrighting my artistic creation - so that other people can't take and run with it...


But it's not your artistic creation, it's just a modification of the one provided by Firaxis. They're allowing you the "Fair Use" of their product so that you can do your own thing with it.

Now I'm sure they're not going to bother you if you stick a copyright on it, especially since you're not making a profit from it. But if it ever were to reach a courtroom, your copyright would be null and void according to international law.

I'm not a lawyer, I can't quote you a particular statute, but I had this stuff drilled into me at school a couple of years back.

I think the issue of copyrighting is moot as it relates to the question at hand. No one here is going to try to sell their Civ III material for profit and if you tried you can bet you would hear about it from Firaxis.

The question is whether people need to get permission to change someone's posted work, whether it be a map, mod, scenario, graphics, etc. Personally I don't think permission should be required to make changes, but certainly credit must be given where credit is due for the original work. I suppose, though, that asking for permission first is the courteous thing to do (especially if you plan to submit it to Firaxis for PTW or to be posted on their website).

If someone takes your original work, changes it and then posts it without giving you proper credit then you can simply post a message in their thread "reminding" them to give you credit for your work. If they refuse, then post a link to the thread with your mod/scenario/whatever so everyone can see for themselves your work was appropriated without due credit.

Ultimately, though, the only way to be sure no one will ever change your work is to not post it at all.

As I work on the WWI scenario, I have to admit that I am starting to see Zoave's point about a flipping flag, since using small towns has made my map very accurate but poses the risk of stupid things like Dover flipping to the French in 1904 or Gibraltar suddenly becoming Spanish in 1911.

But I digress.

My main point is that I agree; before posting someone's modded mod, notice should be given at least, and credit, and - UNLESS SPECIFIED OTHERWISE, the modmaker should actually have the right to say "yea or nay" to the use of their work.

And I'd planned to assign credit to each of the contributors to the WWI scenario - both in the readme, and perhaps by allowing everybody to have their name stuck into one civ of their choice as a GL, e.g. "Field Marshal Kinboat." (Like that, Kinboat?)

(although I made the mistake of starting work on the map before asking Norm, but I certainly will ask before posting, which I'm sure he will agree to, since I carved up his original europe considerably)

R.III

I think the issue of copyrighting is moot as it relates to the question at hand. No one here is going to try to sell their Civ III material for profit and if you tried you can bet you would hear about it from Firaxis.

Was it here or at Apolyton were somebody had a plan about making downloading mods a pay service?

Originally posted by hzm


Was it here or at Apolyton were somebody had a plan about making downloading mods a pay service?

I've never read about that idea, but that would be up to Firaxis.

Originally posted by Richard III

My main point is that I agree; before posting someone's modded mod, notice should be given at least, and credit, and - UNLESS SPECIFIED OTHERWISE, the modmaker should actually have the right to say "yea or nay" to the use of their work.



Unless Firaxis officially accepts a mod, as they're planning on doing with PtW, no one has any rights whatsoever to anything they post. All anyone can hope for is that people have the decency to credit whomever provided the mod/alteration in the first place, after they've made their changes. This whole argument about copyright is moot, since the cards are all in Firaxis/Infogrames hands. Legally, no one else has a leg to stand on, so it's rather ludicrous to even get concerned about it.

If you don't want people to change it, don't post it.

Originally posted by Willem
Unless Firaxis officially accepts a mod, as they're planning on doing with PtW, no one has any rights whatsoever to anything they post. All anyone can hope for is that people have the decency to credit whomever provided the mod/alteration in the first place, after they've made their changes. This whole argument about copyright is moot, since the cards are all in Firaxis/Infogrames hands. Legally, no one else has a leg to stand on, so it's rather ludicrous to even get concerned about it.

If you don't want people to change it, don't post it.

I suppose:

1) it never occurred to you that people might want to share their work with other players without having it chopped up?
2) it never occurred to you that legal rights aside, a little common courtesy of asking first couldn't hurt?

Originally posted by Richard III


I suppose:

1) it never occurred to you that people might want to share their work with other players without having it chopped up?
2) it never occurred to you that legal rights aside, a little common courtesy of asking first couldn't hurt?

Yes it has occurred to me and once I post my mod, I hope that people respect the effort that I've put into it. But I'm under no illusion that I can expect anything more than common courtesy by doing so. It's Firaxis that deserves the credit for allowing me to manipulate the game that they provided me with, and thinking otherwise would just be an example of inflating my own sense of self-importance.

So let's all thank somebody. Thank the maker of the mod you edited, thank firaxis, thank infogrames, thank sid meier, thank microsoft, thank macintosh, thank the computer, thank the mainframes, thank the maker! (in C-3P0 accent) blahblah blah blahblah. I think "copyrighting" your mods is a waste of time. People are going to get mad if someone copies your work whether you put a little C next to what you made or not. If you don't like that someone made something based on something you did ask a mod to remove it.

I think Greg hit it on the money with his post:

"Willem, Windows Paint is also a copyrighted product. I can certainly copyright art produced by paint. IMHO CivIII is simply the paint. I don't think the owners of CivIII would disagree."

What you create is not owned by Firaxis - I know it's mine, I made it, so what? Firaxis can phone me tomorrow and say hand it over? I don't think so, that is stupid. It is my work, I spent time on it - now if I were working for Firaxis making this map, ok fine, but I am not - so you can throw out that web design example. Can you imagine, you buy lets say Paint Shop Pro and everything you make on it does not belong to you?

That simply does not make any sense.

Lets get to the bottom line here, Mod makers spend endless hours laboring to design maps, scenarios etc... I believe it is in their right to judge how their work can be used - in probably 100% of the case though I am certain they would not mind what people did with it as long as credit was given to them if they posted the edited work somewhere.

I recall that Star Wars versus Star Trek Mod - That is one hell of a Mod, don't they have copyright on it? (just curious)

Originally posted by teturkhan
I think Greg hit it on the money with his post:

"Willem, Windows Paint is also a copyrighted product. I can certainly copyright art produced by paint. IMHO CivIII is simply the paint. I don't think the owners of CivIII would disagree."

What you create is not owned by Firaxis - I know it's mine, I made it, so what? Firaxis can phone me tomorrow and say hand it over? I don't think so, that is stupid. It is my work, I spent time on it - now if I were working for Firaxis making this map, ok fine, but I am not - so you can throw out that web design example. Can you imagine, you buy lets say Paint Shop Pro and everything you make on it does not belong to you?

That simply does not make any sense.


Can you use a mod anywhere outside of Civ III? No, you need to use it with the program provided by Firaxis. It's not a stand alone product, it has to used in conjunction with the game. It's much different if you consider Windows Paint. Although the code is considered a creative product, and hence intellectual property, by itself it's just a tool, and anything created by it develops a life of it's own, so to speak. You don't need the program to interact with it. You can print it out, add it to a web site, use another prgram to view it. You can't do that with a mod, it has to be used in the context of the game.

As for Firaxis asking you to hand your work over, they at least have the right to tell you not to post your work, or share it with anyone else. Under the Fair Use clause, they could legally force you to use it only for your own purposes.

In this day and age, almost anything is interchangeable between games. I have seen maps, animation, all kinds of things taken from one source made to work for another program. There is this map utility for example, you use paint or whatever art program you have on your computer, design a map which can be converted to work for Civ 3 (BMP to BIC).

Yet you did not even use the editor that comes with Civ3 for this?
I view the Civ3 map editor this way. It is a tool, yes it is only for Civ 3, but even that is interchangeable. That map utility I just mentioned? It also enables people to take Civ 3 maps and turn them into bitmaps, potentially to be converted for use with other programs.

I will give you one last example. I created a map, bitmap file. Its original, unique etc, I have only used my art program on my PC to do this and I got a copyright for it. Some guy comes along, uses a utility tool that enables any kind of map/image to be instantly converted to a Civ Map. Cool, right? But wait a minute; it is still my map isn’t it? Just cause he converted it into a different file doesn’t nullify my copyright. See my point? And let’s get real here, in all honesty, copyrights are an ugly road to go down, after all who is really going to go after someone unless some big bucks were on the line? I copyrighted my work mainly because I never copyrighted something before :D Now that I learned it’s for free!? I will be doing it more often, because as I said it is my design and I want to protect it as much as possible. I don’t think software companies would care until somebody starts making $$$ anyway. Firaxis knows why Civ3 is so popular, because it’s modder friendly. They realize this is good for the game and for the game players which in the end will make them more $$$ :).

Here are some good links on the subject for those interested:
http://www.gamesfirst.com/articles/paulc/pc_design/pc_design.htm

http://www.modpages.com/list.php?mod=history

Originally posted by teturkhan
In this day and age, almost anything is interchangeable between games. I have seen maps, animation, all kinds of things taken from one source made to work for another program. There is this map utility for example, you use paint or whatever art program you have on your computer, design a map which can be converted to work for Civ 3 (BMP to BIC).

Yet you did not even use the editor that comes with Civ3 for this?
I view the Civ3 map editor this way. It is a tool, yes it is only for Civ 3, but even that is interchangeable. That map utility I just mentioned? It also enables people to take Civ 3 maps and turn them into bitmaps, potentially to be converted for use with other programs.

I will give you one last example. I created a map, bitmap file. Its original, unique etc, I have only used my art program on my PC to do this and I got a copyright for it. Some guy comes along, uses a utility tool that enables any kind of map/image to be instantly converted to a Civ Map. Cool, right? But wait a minute; it is still my map isn’t it? Just cause he converted it into a different file doesn’t nullify my copyright. See my point? And let’s get real here, in all honesty, copyrights are an ugly road to go down, after all who is really going to go after someone unless some big bucks were on the line? I copyrighted my work mainly because I never copyrighted something before :D Now that I learned it’s for free!? I will be doing it more often, because as I said it is my design and I want to protect it as much as possible. I don’t think software companies would care until somebody starts making $$$ anyway. Firaxis knows why Civ3 is so popular, because it’s modder friendly. They realize this is good for the game and for the game players which in the end will make them more $$$ :).


First of all, I haven't been talking about maps, I've been talking about mods. Certainly in the example you mentioned you'd have some rights, but someone making a mod doesn't. Here's a pertinant passage from the US copyright office that explains it as I see it:

"Section 106 of the 1976 Copyright Act generally gives the owner of copyright the exclusive right to do and to authorize others to do the following:

To prepare derivative works based upon the work;"

A mod would be considered a derivative work, which Firaxis has "authorized" people to create on their behalf, according to the "Fair Use" clause of international copyright law.

Frankly this whole thread is getting silly, since no one is going to be taking anyone to court over this issue. However, the title of the tread was "Copyright Law", and reading some of the posts it became quite clear that many people are confused by the concept. I've just been trying to clear up some misconceptions.

I've also been trying to point out that if you post something, you will have to rely on the good nature of the people downloading the mod to give credit where it's due. And as I said before, if someone doesn't want their mod changed, they shouldn't post it.

And as I said before, if someone doesn't want their mod changed, they shouldn't post it.

hmm... I like this better - how about people should just have some class and ask before they edit or modify a mod or at least give credit to the original design – now that’s fair...

And for those of you that don't agree, well... in the Jungle there are two type of predators, ones like Lions and others like Hyenas… guess that applies to people too huh ;)

why not add another 3rd choice in the poll - " people should at the very least give credit to the original designer"