Hi all :)

You´ve probably heard this before, but if we look at how colonization worked, theres no excuse why they left out Portugal from the original. It kills me that the new Col should commit the same mistake.

The game works like this: A european nation discovers america (or part of it), builds a colony, explores the area, contacts the natives, plants raw materials and then produces derivatives, exports these prdoucts to the Old Continent, clashes with european rivals, over time prospers creating new generations of "native" europeans who influenced by liberalism and other ideas begin an independence movement and create a new country in the americas.

Brazil = Discovered in 1500 by portuguese explorers, colonized rapidly by portugese added with about 4 million african slaves and natives. Wars with the French and Dutch break out over land, which are won by the portuguese. Gains independence in 1822 and today is the largest country in South America, 5th largest in the world, 10th largest economy, has 187 million portuguese speaking people. Hardly a "second rate" american nation not worth mentioning in the colonization of the american continent.

Why Brazil should be considered a "lesser nation" than Suriname or Quebec(not even independent) is beyond me.

Besides all this, Im dying to get my hands on Colonization, my favourite strategy game after Civ.

p.s - Strange that no one has mentioned the wonderful soundtrack from the original. Hope they bring back those old tunes.

Hi all :)

Why Brazil should be considered a "lesser nation" than Suriname or Quebec(not even independent) is beyond me.

Wow, somebody's got some issues.

Welcome to the Civilization Fanatics' Forums, Tekka. :wavey:

The subject of Portugal not being one of the nationalities available for play has been commented on numerous times. (It's been pretty much talked to death, IMO.)

The music from the original Colonization was brought up...somewhere. It did not create the stir Portugal did.

Colonization is an all-time favorite of mine, too. I still play the Windows 95 version of the original on my Vista machine.

Tekka:

Build a bridge mate. :)

I personally guarentee that in the first few hours of release, I'll have released a mod to add Portugal and other things. ;)

Are you working on that mod, as we speak:mischief:

Of course not, I'm at work. :p

Way to go Dale, cant wait to check it out :cool:

By the way, will you include new founding fathers and some kind of sepecific civ bonus for the portuguese? Although Ive been playing civ and col for years, Im pretty much green when it comes to modding.

At this stage, the answers are no and yes. The Portguese are the same standard as the other nations. :)

However my mod is FAR from finished, and FF's may come on the table later down the track. More important fixes to put in yet. ;)

Did you include Joan II's model from Civ4 or a still image ?

Hi all :)

You´ve probably heard this before, but if we look at how colonization worked, theres no excuse why they left out Portugal from the original. It kills me that the new Col should commit the same mistake.

The game works like this: A european nation discovers america (or part of it), builds a colony, explores the area, contacts the natives, plants raw materials and then produces derivatives, exports these prdoucts to the Old Continent, clashes with european rivals, over time prospers creating new generations of "native" europeans who influenced by liberalism and other ideas begin an independence movement and create a new country in the americas.

Brazil = Discovered in 1500 by portuguese explorers, colonized rapidly by portugese added with about 4 million african slaves and natives. Wars with the French and Dutch break out over land, which are won by the portuguese. Gains independence in 1822 and today is the largest country in South America, 5th largest in the world, 10th largest economy, has 187 million portuguese speaking people. Hardly a "second rate" american nation not worth mentioning in the colonization of the american continent.

Why Brazil should be considered a "lesser nation" than Suriname or Quebec(not even independent) is beyond me.

Besides all this, Im dying to get my hands on Colonization, my favourite strategy game after Civ.

p.s - Strange that no one has mentioned the wonderful soundtrack from the original. Hope they bring back those old tunes.


Tekka, welcome to the PNHCivCol. - Portuguese None Happy with Civilization Colonization.

As Greybriar said, you can chek in the other page on of those pages.

And I agree with you, Tekka.

Portugal/Brazil should be on the game!

Pedro Alvares Cabral isn't quite enough to make us Portuguese and Brazilians happy. :(:(:(

IIRC, Sid's rationale for not including Portugal in the first game was that he thought they would be too similar to the Spanish in style and motivation. The original game didn't allow for much fine-tuning of the different countries' unique abilites, I guess. That shouldn't be a problem with the new game, however. OTOH, I'm sure a lot of old fans would be outraged if the new version differed too much from the original, which might explain why the Portuguese are still out. But rest assured, people, that in a matter of days after the release of the game, there will be excellent mods available to fill in the blank spots. Apart from Portugal, Denmark-Norway and Sweden ought to be implemented, and probably Russia as well. Personally, I really look forward to messing with the game files... :mischief:

Portugal and Spain had very different holes. Portugal was more oriented to navigation and exploration:
- Vasco da Gama was the first to reach India travelling around Africa.
- Portuguese people were the first European to have a sea trade route with both China and Japan. Pekin, Canton and some other Chinese city names were named by Portuguese guys and possibly due how they had understood. And the Japanese word "arigato" is originated from Portuguese word "obrigado" - it may prove the friendly relations both people had at that time due trade.
- Portuguese people also improved some sea instruments, making it easier to navigate.
- Most part of African slave trade was controlled by Portuguese guys.

On the other side, Spain had focused on conquer and pillage native cities. They destroyed the Mesoamerican civilizations and got tons of silver going to Europe.

So:
Portugal => exploration, navigation, sea trade
Spain => conquer, extraction, army

That's my point of view. Portugal had a very important hole in discovery ages and cannot be simply be considered "almost similar to Spain". Here is a link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_Empire) with some interesting material.

Portugal x Duth and Portugal x Spain, could be great maps.

Portuguese were also very into converting/assimilating tribes rather than just conquering them like the Spanish.

If the Portuguese were more oriented towards exploration, their nation bonus should give them better chances to find positive rumours, or increase the movement of their scouts or certain ships (like the caravel).

As for conversion/assimilation of native tribes, you shouldn't get into that as it's already the Frenchmen's forte.

Eh, someone will eventually mod it in.

That's a given. :p

Portugal won't be there in the vanilla game, but I'm just throwing suggestions in case someone wants to mod it in.

I agree with all of you that Portugal and Spain would fill quite different roles in the game, I'm just referring to what Sid Meier gave as his reason for not including Portugal in the first place. I would really like to have Portugal as an official civ, but I guess I'll have to mod it in, along with Denmark-Norway, at the very least.

Well, that only shows that Sid doesn't know much of history :p Atleast of the European colonization of the Americas ( still debating to myself why the Dutch were included in the first version.... IMHO even the Russian deserved more than the Dutch )....The Portuguese in Brazil even implemented a system where the born in Brazil ( including not fully blooded Portuguese ) had primazy in the administration. Compare with the Feudal-like establishement of the Spanish, where the Spaniars , with the help of a very restricted half- Spanish blooded caste ruled the slave-like Indian population ( the Portuguese banned Indian slavery ....well , as much as you could in those days )....

Well, that only shows that Sid doesn't know much of history :p Atleast of the European colonization of the Americas ( still debating to myself why the Dutch were included in the first version.... IMHO even the Russian deserved more than the Dutch )...

Nonsense, the big five colonial empires of the early modern era, as every historian will tell you are the Portuguese, the Spanish, the English, the Dutch and the French. Russians played a whole other ballgame.

That is true... But in the Americas IMHO the Russians have primazy over the Dutch: All their attempts failed miseabily except Surinam and some islands in the Caribeans. At least the Russians dominated a very big chunk of N. America ( they even bordered the Spanish Mexico ) and when they got out, it was by their own move ( they even profitted from that ;) )

That is true... But in the Americas IMHO the Russians have primazy over the Dutch: All their attempts failed miseabily except Surinam and some islands in the Caribeans. At least the Russians dominated a very big chunk of N. America ( they even bordered the Spanish Mexico ) and when they got out, it was by their own move ( they even profitted from that ;) )
Yes, they got a big chunk of nothing and profited by leaving it because the US paid them for what was essentially a worthless colony and major weak point against the British. If they hadn't sold it it would have likely ended up the same way as so many Dutch colonies: conquered by the British!

Well, probably... but they got it better than the Dutch, right? :p In my book getting payed is better that having a a nice kick in the the rear ;)

And to say the truth , most of the Dutch colonies in the Americas never passed from "essentially a worthless colony" status, with the major exceptions being Surinam, some Caribean islands and the the Dutch Brazil ( this atleast until they got overriden by the Portuguese allied to the Indian tribes and got holed in some coastal strongholds ), all powered by sugar cane industry.

Well, in the end all the European powers got kicked out of most of their colonial territories, so your post actually supports the Dutch cause and hurts the Russian one. :p

However, if getting paid is better than getting kicked out, from your point of view Russia should be in Colonization before Portugal! :lol:

Just teasing, for the record. :p

We weren't kicked from Brazil... we even putten our heir prince as Brazil's first Emperor :p

P.S Not kidding: there are some clues that point exactly to that.... it is said that João VI said to his son Pedro , the would be Emperor Pedro I of Brazil ( and Pedro IV of Portugal, but that is a entirely diferent issue that would take a page to explain ), that if Brazil had to be independent, it was better that Pedro would be the leader of it .....

hey lets include sweden, too

Well, I meant 'kicked out' as a manner of speech, in the sense that Europeans were no longer in charge.

It seems Pedro I's situation was a complicated one. He was left in charge of Brazil as regent for a while, but when the independence movement came along, he sided with it instead of his mother country. He was progressively demoted by the Portuguese court, and eventually he abandoned Portugal's cause in favour of Brazil's.

Whether or not this was a secret plan orchestrated by Pedro and João, I don't know. Not an expert in this matter. Point is, most colonies rebelled, one way or another.

I was just pointing that Brazil independence was far more smoother than , let's say, the Grande Colombia or Haiti ( not mentioning the USA )..... Portuguese were not kicked out of Brazil like the French were out of Haiti or the British out of the States ;) It was more a negotiated secession than anything else ( pretty much like Serbia did with Montenegro some years ago )

And if you count well, I would say that a good part of the American colonies are still in hand of European powers: from the myriad of caribean islands to St. Pierre et Miquellon, passing by the French Guiana or the Bermudas... not mentioning the somewhat dubious status of the Kingdom of Canada :p

As we would say opn the megadeth board when given dead horses:

:mad: SLAYER :mad:

Portugal should be in the game for sure.

Some might even want to include China - a great what if scenario, and the Polynesians.

Russia should be involved in colonization. they controlled alaska and even settled in partds of Modern-day California. only when the US bought Alaska off them was oil discovered.