Does anyone still rush to Grenadiers like in the Vanilla/Warlords days? It seems to me that since they've been pushed back, and since the AI doesn't defend with just tons of rifles anymore, they're now less usefull. I rarely research Military Science now, since Rifling always seems the better option.

Well, grens + cannons still are a very viable way of taking a civ down. But yeah, definitely it is not the braindead choice as it was pre-BtS

Post Liberalism it seems that now you have to make a choice between concentrating on the top of the tech tree, for rifles (with cuirassiers, cavalry and jails for spies and drafting) or going for grenadiers and other techs in lower part of the tech tree (with galleons, frigates and cannons). The type of map is the main way I decide to go for one way or the other.

If there is a lot of water then getting the ships early is important. Cannons, grenadiers and drafted muskets can tackle anything up to infantry and artillery. You can afford to wait to double back for Rifling.

If the map is mostly land then drafted rifles plus a few rifles with CR3 upgraded from macemen, cavalry and cuirassiers can take out anything if supported by spies causing revolts. Otherwise it takes a long time to reduce the defences of castles with only trebuchets and catapults. Build jails to reduce WW and to generate EPs for the spy revolts.

In my games it seems the AI beelines Mil Science for the Grendiers or maybe the Adcas.

For me it's a dead end tech that is not essential, i'll trade for it unless i'm desperate.

Does anyone still rush to Grenadiers like in the Vanilla/Warlords days? It seems to me that since they've been pushed back, and since the AI doesn't defend with just tons of rifles anymore, they're now less usefull. I rarely research Military Science now, since Rifling always seems the better option.


I rarely do since Military Science is deadend but every time I do tech it I say, "Damn, why don't I do this more"

Path's off liberalism

1) Rifleman path: PP (free)/banking/replaceable parts/rifling then nationalism/military tradition. 6 techs and riflemen/cavalry

2) Greander Path: Chemistry (free)/military science/steel then Steam Power/Railroad/Combustion. 6 techs for grenaders/cannons/superior navy.

The rifle path are cheaper techs I believe, unlock civics (Merc/Nationhood), and give hammers to windmills/watermills. It also moves you closer to other essential civics. The rifling path seams more like an economic path.

The Grenader path is more expensive but opens levees, improves worker speed, shows coal, and opens up railroads. It's more of a production route.

SO often you are looking at rifling/cavalry versus greanders/cannons short term, then research versus produciton.

One final point about my comparison above that not many mention, both have 1 deadend tech. Military Science AND Military Tradition are deadend techs.

One final point about my comparison above that not many mention, both have 1 deadend tech. Military Science AND Military Tradition are deadend techs.

Liberalism is also a dead-end tech...

No it isn't. You need Lib for Communism.

Haven't tried grens since Warlords. After liberalism I can always get to rifling pretty fast so I just continue along that path rather than divert to grens. The AI doesn't use them either. Come to think of it, I haven't even seen a Gren since warlords. I miss their animation. :(

The Grenader path is more expensive but opens levees, improves worker speed, shows coal, and opens up railroads. It's more of a production route.

SO often you are looking at rifling/cavalry versus greanders/cannons short term, then research versus produciton.

There is the production aspect, but surely not the railroads and levees :confused: you seem to be mixing up the tech tree a bit there :p Railroads requires Steam Power (also gives levees) but that requires Replaceable Parts which requires Banking... Once you've gone that far you may as well just research Rifling and forget the grenadiers.

The production aspect I see is the combination of drydocks, Iron Works and military academies. The way I leverage that group of 3 techs is; research Chemistry for frigates and privateers, followed by Steel for cannons, drydocks and Iron Works, followed by Military Science. So that can make a swarm of powerful privateers that will get you plenty of GG (especially if Imperialistic) which you can invest in military academies to boost production (each GG is can be worth 20 hammers per turn or 6 times better than a GE :eek:). At the same time I will have anticipated the cannons arriving by building some trebuchets as that is really effective upgrade (only costs 80 gold) and anticipated the grenadiers arriving with some macemen with CR promotions and some crossbows with CG promotions. All you need then is a nice fleet of galleons and the world is your oyster :D


One final point about my comparison above that not many mention, both have 1 deadend tech. Military Science AND Military Tradition are deadend techs.

They are both useful military techs that can deliver the decisive edge if used properly in combination with a few other techs. Then the only thing that's dead at the end is the enemy :lol:

There is the production aspect, but surely not the railroads and levees :confused: you seem to be mixing up the tech tree a bit there :p Railroads requires Steam Power (also gives levees) but that requires Replaceable Parts which requires Banking... Once you've gone that far you may as well just research Rifling and forget the grenadiers.

The production aspect I see is the combination of drydocks, Iron Works and military academies. The way I leverage that group of 3 techs is; research Chemistry for frigates and privateers, followed by Steel for cannons, drydocks and Iron Works, followed by Military Science. So that can make a swarm of powerful privateers that will get you plenty of GG (especially if Imperialistic) which you can invest in military academies to boost production (each GG is can be worth 20 hammers per turn or 6 times better than a GE :eek:). At the same time I will have anticipated the cannons arriving by building some trebuchets as that is really effective upgrade (only costs 80 gold) and anticipated the grenadiers arriving with some macemen with CR promotions and some crossbows with CG promotions. All you need then is a nice fleet of galleons and the world is your oyster :D



They are both useful military techs that can deliver the decisive edge if used properly in combination with a few other techs. Then the only thing that's dead at the end is the enemy :lol:

I stand corrected, thanks JJ. I forgot Steam Power also requires replaceable parts.

I almost always bee-line to steel (for cannons/ironworks), and generally follow that up with Military Science for Grens. They have such a long lifespan when bee-lined, since it's not until the Ai starts spamming Cavalry that they have a serious weakness, and it's not until infantry that they aren't great city raiders.

I usually put off rifling until I see cavalry, or until I have (or almost have) industrialization for infantry. That way I can build 5xp macemen, give them CR2 and then upgrade them to grens, which gives a constant stream of awesome city raiders.

After I get grens, I almost invariably bee-line railroads, for the mobility, but also for machine guns, which are fantastic defenders against even cavalry...

I beleive you also need rifling for artillery.

The beauty of grenadiers are frigates, cannons, and privateers. The latter is huge if you can get there before the AI can make galleons and still viable even afterwards. It is a wickedly easy way to peacefully generate GGs by parking a few privateers off some backward isle and letting them suicide caravels (or triremes =).

If you aren't going to use privateers, I prefer going for steel first then backfilling. This allows you to keep drafting (assuming you traded for it) at low pop costs or at least whipping/building at low cost that you can upgrade on the fly the grenadiers. If you delay rifling until after assembly line, you can churn out a new set of CRIII maces to promote into infantry.

I should confess though, of late I've been skipping both for a straight shot to railroad/infantry. I'm normally popping ~2 cannons per turn and it is FAR more important to get to railroad ASAP so I can keep hammering the AI before they get flank damage vs my cannons (note this is on normal speed so march times are of UTMOST importance) or I'm taking down a monster AI/alliance and I need the industrialization/SP/Mining boosts to keep building rates up.

Grenadiers are great with philosophical leaders in my experience as you can easily lightbulb chemistry with 2 GSs. Two honourable mentions would be Alex as he's aggressive and well fit for a FE/SE war-game and Suleiman as you can draft the UU together with the grenadiers but I'm sure there are many other ways. Being imperialistic Suleiman will make opening up military academies worthwhile too.

Liberalism is also a dead-end tech...

It leads to communism(which is a deadend tech)...

I usually go for drafted Rifles + Trebs. A dozen trebs only need two turns to knock down a castle, and that time can be used for healing anyway. Once in a while I'll take the other path. For example, I had a recent game where I knew I had no shot at Liberalism, so I ignored Paper-Education and just beelined Steel via Guilds. Then fought with cannons + muskets + CR maces. I don't use many mounted units.

In my games on monarch i usually tend to research steel and rifling early or trade for it if possible. Then I rush for assembly line and steamrole my biggest enemy with a nice cannons + infantry SOD :evil:

They are better if you are going to go all out war with your already high production and land area... it takes a bit less research than rifles, and you also get war academies (+50% unit production is nice) and ships of the line for naval dominance... along with the frigates with chemistry... and you are closer to cannons.

I think the riflemen line is better if you are aren't already dominant and are in line for hundreds of years of hard war (assembly line is the most powerful military tech).

Liberalism is also a dead-end tech...

I don't know how you can call it a dead-end tech when it gives you a free tech, therefore opening up a new path. Dead-end techs give no more options. It is like it is a hybrid tech, research liberalism/nationalism, liberalism/printing press, liberalism/chemistry.

Liberalism is also a dead-end tech...

So is Monotheism.

So is Monotheism.

Thats why most people skip that tech a large amount of the time...

So is Monotheism.

it leads to both Monarchy and theology. So no.

theocracy and divine right and horseback riding and archery are dead end techs

Theology leads to paper and divine right.

Divine right leads to nationalism.

civil service is basically mandatory and philosophy is almost always preferable to divine right, so in my book they are both basically dead-end techs.

civil service is basically mandatory and philosophy is almost always preferable to divine right, so in my book they are both basically dead-end techs.

If you have a reasonable sized empire and can get DR fast enough, spiral is a really powerful wonder (as is sankore), making religious buildings cheap and ALSO incredibly powerful. I've had a couple games where I wasn't going for "religious economy" at all, but noticed I could found islam by taking DR with lib - which I did. The economic benefit of the wonder (and religion, should you be able to shrine it, but that discussion belongs elsewhere) is pretty high.

Take, for example, a modest 10 city empire. With temple/monastery, you are looking at a 40 GPT hike, before modifiers in their respective cities (though most won't have many gold modifiers typically). This is pretty good even without sankore/AP, although of course if you could manage all 3 you'll have a strong game on your hands. There aren't too many techs or wonders that instantly bump the slider up 1-2 notches, and those that do are considered strong...

Although CS is pretty mandatory, don't forget that you get a tech reduction cost on paper for theology, and that you may want theology early to get the AP or take advantage of the civic.

Finally, both techs trade incredibly well. INCREDIBLY well...you can hold them for a while and still get great value.

MS on the other hand IS actually a dead end tech, although it's still excellent trade bait in a lot of cases (assuming you can stomach trading someone a military tech). It's a war tech and that's that, but it is a very sound one. It unlocks the best wooden ship (which, by the way, OWNS on bombardment way more than frigates also, although unfortunately is slow), and is 1 tech away after you get your cannons. Grens are probably the best option vs rifles, although I find the presence of cuirassers and cavalry do weaken the gren/cannon combo. Therefore, as other players have stated I find the steel line to be of much more use on maps where naval power matters (this also does something to mounted troops mobility advantage as ships are faster, and you'll probably defend vs them in cities as opposed to the open as you can strike from the sea and go with city garrisons).

I wouldn't ignore grenadiers though. Niche unit though they may be, they do their job pretty well.

it leads to both Monarchy and theology. So no.

I consider Theology a useless tech and Monarchy can be attained without Monotheism.

Time to post points disagreeing with me that I will instantly disregard and not read.



Towards the midgame I might eventually trade for Monotheism and Theology from an AI at one point, but I dislike researching the tech myself.

The only techs I consider dead-end besides Monotheism are Horseback Riding (Not true if playing as Carthage), and Divine Right. Firaxis did a good job with trying to force you to research each tech, but the Monotheism hole can be exploited in lower difficulty levels, particularly if you're not playing a religious game. No Hagia Sophia for you? Aww. No Organized Religion? No Theology? No matter!

HBR is LITERALLY dead-end, but that doesn't make it bad (I'm sure you know my feelings on mounted troops plenty well already). It leads to no other techs, hence it is dead end. Only a very few select techs are actually dead end (archery is one also), but they're often useful regardless.

Mono/theo are, of course, useless without religion. If you have access to religion, avoiding mono is a terrible joke especially in isolation but even in general (and it's a weak tech beakerwise to trade for, if you have to worry about WFYABTA). Theo isn't as close to 100% every game but the access to a super wonder (and the ability to keep it from screwing you) and the ability to make 2 promo units without hampering bureaucracy are both pretty nice perks.

Move the scout to the hill NE of your current position and then make a decision. Only in this way, will you know which techs to research.

Beeline steel for cannons...with enough siege you can take cities with axemen

Unless you get cuirassers-raped, and the AI seems to love doing that :(. Having an otherwise backwards AI hit you with 15 cuirassers and flank all your cannons down to 7 str cannons just sucks :(. It's not like grenadiers help much unless they're stationed in cities with CG - Pikes do just as well vs cuirassers as grenadiers do outside cities, and to be honest that isn't very well - pinch or shock cuirassers own them both on flatland :(.

There are ways around this but IMO it's better just to draft rifles or use mounted yourself unless you're playing a water map, where you can use naval dominance/mobility/city garrison to your advantage, greatly strengthening the steel line. Flanking damage to cannons from large numbers of mounted just screws them, and while the AI doesn't utilize strategy the warmongers seem to like knight/cuirasser/cavalry spam regardless.

C2 Formation Grenadiers are useful for picking away Riflemen in a Riflemen + Mounted Unit stack. After the several Riflemen are destroyed, the mounted units can be dealt with easily.

I'm yet to remember when I last researched mil. sci.(wasn't in the last 30 games anyway - getting it from internet doesn't count :p).

The combo is dreadful and plays the ai game; you're without counter to mounted, which the ai loves, and your work ponnie will be the cannon, which gets flanked because you don't have the hard counter to the mounted... Since going rifles, most of the time defending the stack with some pinch knights is enough to protect me from ai grens; ergo, I don't want to be in this situation and see ai pinch knights chewing my stack.

And the SoTL is just a bad joke... 3 movement; umm... you could fall asleep before it reaches somewhere; leaving aside that the ai will flee with his frigate when he sees your sotl, and mathematically you don't ever catch him(that supposing you build a navy).

Steel is a good tech; might pick it from lib. Might pick chemistry some times and go cannon/pike/musket/mace, but mil. sci. - no thanks.

To top an already dreadful combo, they ain't draftable... Plus, why would you want a str. 12 city raider instead of a str. 14 city raider... You should probably pay more or less the same for upgrade from mace(I guess, not using grens., so I don't know how much they cost, but probably it's in the same range as rifles).

Last, if you want infantry fast, you need rifling, not mil. sci.; and who doesn't want infantry fast ;)

p.s. - and if you're working actively on denying an ai horses, it's as sure as the sun and the moon that he'll just trade his silk for the other guy's ponnies which will totally get on your nerves :p

I'm yet to remember when I last researched mil. sci.(wasn't in the last 30 games anyway - getting it from internet doesn't count :p).

I guess that's because you don't play on all available map types. You clearly don't play using the same tactics and strategies that I've found useful. There are certain games where Military Science is a useful tech and that can be researched for the grenadier or the SotL or the Military Academy, all of which I've found can be strong improvements.


The combo is dreadful and plays the ai game; you're without counter to mounted, which the ai loves, and your work ponnie will be the cannon, which gets flanked because you don't have the hard counter to the mounted... Since going rifles, most of the time defending the stack with some pinch knights is enough to protect me from ai grens; ergo, I don't want to be in this situation and see ai pinch knights chewing my stack.

There are many ways of dealing with the big stack of cuirassiers. If you're playing on a water map just invade a civ that doesn't have them (perhaps no horses). Otherwise land on a hill or wood next to a city with a big stack of defensive troops and weather the storm of his counter attack. As long as you don't get hit by a lot of collateral damage a mix or grenadiers and pikemen can win against cuirassiers if fortified in favourable terrain. A woodsman 2 grenadier sitting in a wood is a pretty tough stack defender. If the opponent is bringing a load of collateral then just get back onto your ships and sail away and find another target. That's the beauty of this naval approach, the ability to chose the battleground for the decisive battle.

And the SoTL is just a bad joke... 3 movement; umm... you could fall asleep before it reaches somewhere; leaving aside that the ai will flee with his frigate when he sees your sotl, and mathematically you don't ever catch him(that supposing you build a navy).

The SotL has its uses. It is vastly superior to enemy frigates and can attack them with great confidence when your own frigates are usually a 50 - 50 dice roll. They also deter enemy frigate attacks even if they have superior numbers.

If I go with a strong navy as part of a maritime strategy then I try hard to win the circumnavigation bonus. So my SotL move as fast as the enemy frigates. Also they'll be built with drydocks so I often make a fast sailing variant with flanking1 and navigation1 (needs 1 exp). They sometimes make it to navigation2 and get 6 movement, which ain't tardy for the best ship of their age. I like to rename them to something like HMS Speedy or Rapid :rolleyes: if they achieve that; and it's not difficult once you start ploughing through the stacks of galleons and caravels the AI provides for target practice.

Steel is a good tech; might pick it from lib. Might pick chemistry some times and go cannon/pike/musket/mace, but mil. sci. - no thanks.

But the grenadier adds so much to the cannon led SoD. And it's available much sooner than riflemen can be researched (given that you've beelined to Steel). It has strength 12 and gives the best stack defenders. It also gives the best attacker for use against those extra tough top defenders that frequently kill your leading cannons! Upgrading a CR3 macemen gives a very useful city raider. Upgrading a CG3 crossbow gives a supreme city defender that later becomes a great machingun stack defender. To defend in terrain choose a guerilla or woodsman promotion. Since cannons provide the firepower for your SoD the grenadiers main role is a defensive one and their 12 strength is very useful compared with the 6 of pikemen and 8 of macemen, promotions and terrain bonusses have more effect with a larger strength. Muskets are useful in the SoD but they only have 9 strength and older troops with good promotions can't be upgraded to them. My cannon based SoD will have drafted muskets (for bulk and garrison duty) some pikes, maces, axes and other rag tag troops that can exploit the cannon's firepower and a few specialist grenadiers (upgraded and fresh built). Grenadiers add great flexibility to the cannons.


To top an already dreadful combo, they ain't draftable... Plus, why would you want a str. 12 city raider instead of a str. 14 city raider...

Muskets are draftable but not upgradeable. Grenadiers are not draftable but can be upgraded. So I see them as complimentary. I outlined a few of my favourite upgrades to grenadier above. A 12 strength CR3 unit does the job nearly as well as 14 one, and I can't affort to wait. As long as I still have built enough macemen before researching rifles then I can have both types of CR. And do you know what? Later in the game when the AI has its own rifles defending the CR3 grenadiers make a comeback ;)

You should probably pay more or less the same for upgrade from mace(I guess, not using grens., so I don't know how much they cost, but probably it's in the same range as rifles).

Last, if you want infantry fast, you need rifling, not mil. sci.; and who doesn't want infantry fast ;)

Any upgrade to grenadier costs 30 gold less than to rifleman (since they cost 10 hammers less).

Infantry are Ok but if I go this tech route, because it's a water based map, then Flight is much more important. I rate Combustion and Flight way above Assembly line (needs Corporation) in that case. Who needs infantry when you have air superiority? And with Rifling just research Artillery for a useful upgrade to cannons; and that gets rid of any fear of cuirassiers or cavalry flanking damage. Infantry and tanks and battleships are completely superfluous when you put that group of techs together.

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So for me, grenadiers are a very useful unit in the middle of the tech tree and I frequently research Military Science and refuse to trade it away early. We clearly play very differently :lol:

Lately, I've been taking the short path to liberalism a lot, meaning mostly just top half techs, which in turn leads to me not having techs like machinery on my hands by lib(Yes, I know there's a thousand and another reasons not to do this), which makes rifles a much prettier choice, but having to pair them with cats is a bit meh... The gren path is a nice option if I have the medieval military techs, and with the cannon+ship bundle it's a much nicer package overall.

You can often backfill a lot through trades though, so in many cases even if you go the "top" path you aren't very far from either. Which I'd choose depends a lot on the map and that's pretty much what UncleJJ is saying too. Keep in mind that on land maps cavalry and potentially just cuirassers are very good options besides rifles, cannons, or grenadiers. They beat pikes with the correct promos and will hold up against everything pre-rifles, and do very well when mixed with spies. This is of course strength on strength as the AI tends to spam them too, but if you get there first it's cuirassers or cavalry vs knights - and that's pretty favorable.

For me grens lost a lot of their former appeal, they're typically an anti rifle unit but you don't face rifles that early nowadays and cannons take them down anyway. A cuirassier is stronger (more promos) and much more versatile than a gren, mt can be reached earlier than ms. Basically where the human used to have grens, the ai rifles it's often the other way around nowadays.

I consider Theology a useless tech and Monarchy can be attained without Monotheism.

Time to post points disagreeing with me that I will instantly disregard and not read.

It's your choice to be wrong and ignorant. No skin off my back.

^^yeah, but he's still right...

i like the way you guys arguing on which is the dead-end tech.... hahaha

I don't think I've ever created a single grenadier in BTS.

There are a couple other factors on deciding between Grens/Rifles.
A. If you are running a CE, then PP is a big boost and that favors the rifling line. If you're running an SE then Biology is the big boost so Chemistry->steel->MS is a wise choice.
B. what techs does your opponent have? If they are going "lower tree" and you are looking at facing grens and cannons then rifling for defensive units. Grens may have an advantage vs rifles but 5 turns of fortification plus CG1 cancels it out, so if you can get CG2 as well then you are not too bad off. then research MT while building rifles for cavalry to deal with their cannons and grens in the open field. If the enemy is going rifles first then the steel route to open up steam/railroads for MG's while you build cannons and grens. Though if the Ai beats me to rifles I usually move towards flight, Fighters aren't the best for dropping defenses and collateral but they are not going to be butchered by flanking.
C. If it's an amphibious assault then I definately want frigates, which means i definately want chemistry. SoTL may be a bit slow but they make great anti-seafood pilliagers.
D. Am I behind in techs/powerrating? If so then steel. Cannons as defenders can save your bacon. Slap 3-4 cannons against an enemy SoD and you just might survive.
E. How many decent production cities do I have? Will a Military Academy really help? Did I capture a city with a military academy already built?
F. Personally I would rather go to war with cav/cannons/rifles than just one of them.so i really don't focus on MS. Real life military experience has taught me the parralled value of combined arms. I have never lost a war in Civ when fielding a well balanced army of units from the same time period. I am an admitted wonderholic builder, but do not piss the corpse off. If you attack me with axes in 2000 bc...I will thoroughly mash the limegreen crap out of your aztec butt when i get around to it. Justinian Cataphracted me in a game and cost me the lib race. I put him in every game for about 3 weeks to punish him. One game i eliminated all but two crapps cities. I kept taking one and gifting it back so i could take it again. CivCorpse is most vengeful.
G. I tend to wage long wars in the Medievil period so my civ is usually consolodating it's newest aquisitions. I can usually take a large chunk of land during this period and then hunker down and tech. Once I hit tanks I spam about eleventy billion of them and just go on a rampage.