Hello everybody. I've got just a small question.

Are there creatures like the Dragonborn in Erebus? You know, humans with some draconic heritage? I started wondering when I first saw Lizardmen, but maybe it's quite unlikely, because the only dragons I saw in FfH were big mean bad lizards ;) but what about the Kuriotates and the Sheaim? They think that dragons are divine and worship them, so isn't there a chance that, let's say, a child from an orthodox CotD family would have some dragon features?
If it is possible, then it'd be a really good idea for a high-level unit for future FfH releases...

Nope.

Dragons are the Equivilent of Intelligent Nukes... created by the gods in the past ages. most of them are now asleep.

I'd probably agree with thomas.berubeg, but I don't think there is technically anything saying "intelligent nukes" couldn't reproduce.

The Dragons were all locked away in some sort of storage dimension for at the end of the Godswar. I had assumed that this was a provision in the Compact, but Kael has stated that gods were not forbidden from "waking up their pets" (Mulcarn was not breaking the compact by waking Drifa or Fiacra, but of course he did break it by entering and conquering Erebus). It is most likely that they were simply not suited for the subtler types of conflict that the Compact still allowed, and so were no longer considered useful. From time to time a dragon escaped back into creation (perhaps released, perhaps escaped...or maybe not all the god had bothered to lock them up in the first place), but most of these were slain by heroes of the Age of Magic.

It is known that Acheron was able to use the passion and hatred of a group of barbarian orks to create for himself a passage back to Erebus. It is also known that Acheron had always been a rebellious beast, who bit the hand of his maker (Bhall) as soon as he was created. I believe this means he was made to be a weapon of good against the evils of Mulcarn, but that he chose to fall long before his mistress did. Since Bhall was one of the most active goddesses, I expect she may have made many other red dragons too.

Abashi was Ceridwen's dragon, who was awakened in the Age of rebirth though Sheaim Rituals. Tebyrn released her, and inscribed a rune on her head that would resurrect him whenever he was killed, until the rune was dispelled--which would require slaying the great dragon.

Eurabatres was Amathaon's Dragon (I'd guess his only one, as his creator was the gentlest of the gods), who is the strongest being ever created (except by The One). That means he is greater even than any archangel, even Cernunnos, and he possessed the immense genius of his maker. His consciousness found an escape from the storage dimension, and wandered creation looking for a perfect host, free of the taint of Agares. Once it finally found a pure and ingenious host, it merged with the orphan Cardith, and began a long sequence of events and rituals that would culminate with the recreation of its physical form.






My personal opinion is that Dragons are really a type of angel, just in a monstrous rather than humanoid form. Some gods made several, some made none, but only the strongest have survived. Since the retconning of FfH history a couple of versions ago,all angels (excluding the 21 gods who were made by The One) were created as weapons in the Godswar. I also like to think that Angels and Dragons are not made of crude matter/mana like Creation itself, but are the children of the gods, made of their own soul and thus possessing the Divine Spark just like the Children of Nemed.


It is not uncommon in Erebus for an angel/demon to mate with a mortal and produce offspring (although I don't think there are any examples of them mating with each other), so it is possible that a dragon could as well. Of course, the shear size difference could make mating technically difficult.



I think it is safe to say that no unit in FfH is the descendant of a dragon. Originally, Lizardmen, Orks, Goblins, Ogres, etc., were all supposed to be descendant of the same gren skinned race, who were by nature very chaotic and prone to change. This was however changed, after I pointed out that some entries implied that the Orks were actually the Bannor who were corrupted and mutilated by the Fall of their goddess. After this retcon, the various Clan/barbarian races were separate races who had all been close to Bhall. Who knows, Lizardmen might be all that is left of the Aifons.








(As a side note, I'll say that in my version Dragons are Nukes. They don't self destruct, but they can attack at range and when they do so the whole world shakes under their might. The side effects of this is that they cause other nations to hate you for unleashing such a force upon creation, and they cannot be built until the proper ritual (the equivalent of the Manhatten Project project) is completed by someone. I actually find the need for a ritual (requiring Cult of the Dragon in the city) to be particularly appropriate. The Kuriotates and Sheaim may really want to wipe the other out early though, since the ritual letting their Dragon back into creation will allow the other in as well. The Dragons themselves will be much stronger, and very cheap.



Unfortunately, I didn't get that much done over the break, and am back in school now. If 0.33 hadn't come out I probably would have forced myself to work on it more, but I started playing Somnium instead. I'm not sure when my modmod will get released. If I don't have too much work this first week I'll try to get a 0.32 version out soon, but otherwise it may be a while and would be based on a future 0.33(+?) xienwolf modcomp release.)

All Angels made as Weapons for the Godswar? Then what on earth was the whole story of Gowen? Son of an Angel, quite some time before their Deity entered the Godswar. I'd say that is a fair argument against them having been designed JUST for the purpose of being weapons.

Ok, maybe saying they were created just to be weapons isn't accurate. The gods began making angels to serve them after Agares' rebellion was uncovered and The One had tasked those still loyal to him with protecting Creation and guiding it towards enlightenment. Good and neutral angels were probably created with this intent, while the demons were created to prevent this. Protecting Creation would involve fighting against Agares' followers, but would not be limited to being weapons of war. Still, it makes sense for Sucellus to have created defensive weapons to deter enemies from invading his lands, in the hope that they would never have to be used.

To be honest, I don't know much about the Lizardmen's origins (and I wrote their pedia entries.) I'd be interested to see ideas or Kael's notes, if he has any.
It's possible they were created by mages during the age of Magic, or that they were some minor warrior race from the age of dragons.

To be honest, I don't know much about the Lizardmen's origins (and I wrote their pedia entries.) I'd be interested to see ideas or Kael's notes, if he has any.
It's possible they were created by mages during the age of Magic, or that they were some minor warrior race from the age of dragons.

I think they should be one of the experiments from the Age of Magic.

The archmages of that age created a lot of races by combining animals and experimenting. Griffons, chimeras, trolls, manticores, centaurs. Some of these species remained bestial, some made from men became savage, some made from men became goodly races.

Lizardmen would have been a good race to have been created through these experiments. Later they would ally themselves with the Clan of Embers (since they are both hunted by men) but I like that they would have a different origon than the rest fo the clan races.

I suppose they could have been elves, aifons or humans merged with lizards. Maybe each would have developed a different species of lizardman.

I wouldnt want them to be related to dragons.

I wouldnt want them to be related to dragons.Although what they believe could be a differnt story. Cult of the dragon worshipers might be split on how to view Lizardmen.

Although what they believe could be a differnt story. Cult of the dragon worshipers might be split on how to view Lizardmen.

Definitly.

vaguely off topic here but what happens to Cardith when Eurabatres is summoned/created?


I fear the original question was asked by a D&D4th Ed player who has seen the new Dragonborne race and started to ask questions in the hope of a positive answer.

Other than the four (well five for the two Mulcarn made) Dragons already mentioned here, do we know of any others from history? Are the Dragon Bones of anyone in particular or are the just an 'elephant graveyard' for dragons?

Well, the only other dragon reference I know was an AoI reference to the slaying of "The Blue Dragon." I believe Nikis-Knight said that he meant it to refer to Drifa, before he knew she would be called The White Dragon, but that it could be easily retconned to refer to another dragon. (A sea Dragon serving Danalin maybe?) (He admitted that the events of mentioned in that entry were just filler made to gove the sense fo a deeper history, which no one has written.) I believe someone also found a reference to a blue dragon being related to Luciaque's Pool in Kael's posting of his old D&D notes (which are not cannon).

vaguely off topic here but what happens to Cardith when Eurabatres is summoned/created?


I fear the original question was asked by a D&D4th Ed player who has seen the new Dragonborne race and started to ask questions in the hope of a positive answer.

Other than the four (well five for the two Mulcarn made) Dragons already mentioned here, do we know of any others from history? Are the Dragon Bones of anyone in particular or are the just an 'elephant graveyard' for dragons?

No reason to fear 4E. It's a pretty good game, to my surprise; took me a while to come around. Its core setting has got a different thrust than older base settings. Speaking as an old 2E fan I think its mechanics could play really well with Dark Sun.

That said, if you're looking to play a Dragonborn in an FFH-inspired game, I think your best bet is probably reflavoring it to have something to do with Mulcarn / frost giants for cold; I don't have any particularly excellent suggestions for the other archetypes but I'm sure people would be willing to make suggestions.

I'm actually quite glad to see that there's very few dragons around considering their power (wow especially from the AoI scenario) I doubt very much we'll see any more in the game but I'm glad there's no more room for them- those that are around already remind us of the old ages and what they could do.

That said, if you're looking to play a Dragonborn in an FFH-inspired game, I think your best bet is probably reflavoring it to have something to do with Mulcarn / frost giants for cold; I don't have any particularly excellent suggestions for the other archetypes but I'm sure people would be willing to make suggestions.I have only a passing familiarity with D&D, but why wouldn't Lizardmen work for dragonborn? They are decently civilized and certainly bear a passing resemblance to dragons. We don't give them breath weapons, but that could certainly be fudged.
Actually, Lizardmen could very well be directly related to dragons in the sense that the remnants of one may have inspired some talented mage to create them. Hmm...

There are Lizardling races of all flavours in D&D (pre-4E), you don't need to use the Dragonborne race. The 4E rules are horrid anyway.

Hm, you are all wrong about this DnD4 matter. I don't play it, and I don't think I ever will. I was just curious, and Dragonborn (which I originally wanted to name Half-Dragons, but it seemed too... well...) are just a nice idea for CotD units. But well, if experts say that they don't exist - they don't exist.

Thanks everyone for cooperation.

Hmm, Abashi is Tebryn's phylactery? No wonder he's so confident.
This is Bella Soma

actually 4E is better cuz 3.5E=lots of ways to make ur char, boring combat. 4E=less ways to make ur char, but all viable+interesting combat

Simple mathematics will tell you that 4ED is rubbish.

4ED = no Bard. Therefore, 4ED = Crap.

On a more serious note, I hate the Dragonborn race with a passion. Why did they add such filler to the new addition but remove things like Bards, Druids, and Gnomes?

Because Hasbro/Wizards realised that 'less able' people (using the PC term) found D&D too hard to grasp so they dumbed it right down, removing everything difficult to understand like magic, religion and setting history and replaced it all with Dwarven 'Adventurers' called Carlos who claim to be lawful good and then kills a Archon for the experience points and the treasure.

What Bobchinski said, only that they won't neglect those players who like the flavor-classes more but instead release a book containing all those later. (PHB2 is already announced to contain all these classes and races.)

That reeks alot like milking the fans in any way possible. :p (not all serious but still has a hint of truth in it. ;) No wonder since they are comercial head to toe.)


So seems not so much dumbing down the core of the system as catering to the average new players first (by realeasing a bare skelleton of a game first so everyone gets to grasp the basics) and adressing the old fans later... (i reckon that the other classes / races will need new features that are not in the main books / rules yet, but will be released as time goes by. Making more money along the way of course... :lol:)
And seriously they whould be dumb to downright smite those more flavor-oriented players in the face. (I find it quite strange that they will take half a year to introduce those classes... Might backfire i reckon. We will see...)


Some promising things, other things rather hard to stomach (Most importantly the missing flavor classes. Especially Druid :mad:.).
But all in all for me it perhaps will be a bit of testing and waiting until the game is more solidly fleshed out (For me the time when PHB2 comes out most likely.). If it turns out good one can still embrace it.
Even though i do indeed like the stronger emphasis on teamplay / cooperation.

(Even if up to a certain point i share the sentiment of the dragonborn race seeming like a simple-mixup low-flavor powerplay race put in to appeal to a certain kind of gamer which didn't find D&D apealing before.)

Biggest plus for me is that they finally de-facto axed the alignment sytem / "play how your class / alignment dictates or be divinely punished if you go stray from that prescribed path" junk.
Gives the game the potential to go away from some if its worst stereotypes and stretches in a party working together and leaves more room for personal motivation / background / roleplay.

All in all i think the game is far from ready right now so i don't try to compare it to 3,5. Few new versions could hope of accomplishing something like that at the very start.

I think they should be one of the experiments from the Age of Magic.

The archmages of that age created a lot of races by combining animals and experimenting. Griffons, chimeras, trolls, manticores, centaurs. Some of these species remained bestial, some made from men became savage, some made from men became goodly races.

Lizardmen would have been a good race to have been created through these experiments. Later they would ally themselves with the Clan of Embers (since they are both hunted by men) but I like that they would have a different origon than the rest fo the clan races.

I suppose they could have been elves, aifons or humans merged with lizards. Maybe each would have developed a different species of lizardman.

I wouldnt want them to be related to dragons.

Well, the scientific explanation would be that a prehistoric reptile (presumably lizard) species evolved bipedalism, intelligence, and the opposable thumb, and eventually evolved into today's lizardmen.

Of course, the magical explanation you propose is more fun. :)

*clears throat* Excuse me, is this a thread about DnD?

um... "maybe"
"cowers under 4E fighter (DRAGONBORN) char sheet"

This discussion has inspired me to think that perhaps the Kuriotate Immortal and Marksman should look a little draconic in nature, like they're taking on something of the nature of Eurabatres...

Hm, not a bad idea...

So, a sort of Dragon Disciple idea? Yeah, could do, could do.
This is Bella Soma.

I don't think the Marksman ought to look draconic. Doesn't really fit, seeing as they really don't have any special powers. They're just exceptionally skilled archers. Immortals, though, hell yes. Especially since Immortals come at the same time as Eurabatres himself regains form, it's very fitting that they would be empowered by him.

You know, I :agree:. Maybe explain it as some sort of "dragonic blood transfusion", or that Kurio immortal are Cult of the Dragon fanatics who have been magic modified since birth to have dragonic blood or something, but I like the idea. Of course, it should probably be limited to wings, lightly scaled features, maybe claws.

Breath weapon for first strikes :mischief:

Actually, making it an Unique Unit rather than just a cosmetic difference could be interesting, and allow for fun things like perhaps Roar or Breathe Fire :D

Hmmm...

Disciple of the Dragon (Disciple Units)
Replaces Immortal
http://forums.civfanatics.com/images/smilies/civ4/strength.gif 7
:move: 2
Starts with Immortal, Regeneration, Fire II
Reqs Cult of the Dragon
Reqs Kuriotates or Sheaim civilization
Reqs Divine Essence

I don't remember exactly what were the statistics of Immortals... I hope I got them right. But you get the idea, Immortals with natural Regeneration and Fire II, and they're Disciple units rather than Melee units. I'm not an expert, but, well... I think that they should look neither Good-aligned nor Evil-aligned, only Neutral-aligned, because if it's going to be for both Kuriotates and Sheaim, then I think they should have a 'good' and 'evil' appearance at the same time.

I'm all for having disciples to spread the Cult of the Dragon, but I don't think that they should be Immortal UUs. They should come much earlier, and not be so powerful.

I also don't think that the Sheaim and Kuriotates should have the same Immortal UU.

You know, currently the Sheaim cannot get Immortals at all. (Well, I guess they could capture a rivals, but that's it.) I haven't actually heard anyone complain about this, but it seems like a big disadvantage. Since the Sheaim really don't have a Melee line, I'm thinking it might be better to make Eater of Dreams immortal.

You know, currently the Sheaim cannot get Immortals at all. (Well, I guess they could capture a rivals, but that's it.) I haven't actually heard anyone complain about this, but it seems like a big disadvantage. Since the Sheaim really don't have a Melee line, I'm thinking it might be better to make Eater of Dreams immortal.

How does adding the Immortal promotion when they "Consume Soul" sound?

How does adding the Immortal promotion when they "Consume Soul" sound?

Very dangerous and really, really entertaining.

How does adding the Immortal promotion when they "Consume Soul" sound?

pointless; might as well just have them start with it than get it the first turn by consuming.

Well, I think the point is that they can get it over and over again this way (with a cost), instead of losing it and being permanently mortal. You could also just make them intrinsically Immortal, but I believe that would stop them from being able to become Liches.

Edit: ok, it doesn't, but it probably should.

Ah, temporary immortality, for some reason I wasa thinking permanent, but that doesn't make sense. Well, that's a little different, but it's hardly something they need. I think there's a reason spell-casters aren't immortals.

Ah, temporary immortality. Well, that's a little different, but it's hardly something they need. I think there's a reason spell-casters aren't immortals.

Aye - I'd agree that spell casters in general are potent and should be fragile, which immortality negates. This is a fairly specific case however where the civ has no access to immortals of other types but does have a unit that thematically would suit it ("Consume Soul" sounds not unlike the method by which Vampires/Sidar prolong their lives).

Sheaim casters would also have a pretty solid case for being inclined to try such things - they'd also be fairly well versed in all sorts of forbidden lore.

==

It'd be an easy tweak to implement if it was done simply through Consume Soul (which as Magister said, applies a cost to the benefit - which is correctly evil and at the expense of the people rather than the unit) - but I'm still pondering if it would need an additional balancing factor. Should Eaters of Dreams be able to be *that* powerful?

I tend to see the Sheaim as being a "late game civ" - having their top level casters able to get involved directly in combat without the paranoia of losing them would fit with that. I must admit though that I haven't really played enough Sheaim games in recent versions to have a good feel for how potent they are anyway.

Give it a 25% chance to give immortality, that might be appropriate. You aren't really going to spam consume soul unless you need the summons anyway, probably.

Give it a 25% chance to give immortality, that might be appropriate. You aren't really going to spam consume soul unless you need the summons anyway, probably.
The thing is, I'd totally spam Consume Soul if I knew I'd get Immortality out of it sooner or later. Citizens are cheap, Eaters of Dreams aren't :D

Maybe a new ability to raze a city of size >5 to gain Immortal Promotion. But not tied to Consume, which you'll likely cast anyway

Well, a spell that lets you raze a (revolting or indefensible) city would itself be very useful. That seems like a win-win scenario for the Sheaim, with its "downside" giving them a big advantage. They could capture cities, bring them down to size 5, and then raze them without any diplomatic penalty.


What would you think if the change of getting the Immortal promotion was equal to the city size?

How about making it last turns equal to 1/2 the population that got devoured?
Might also make it a spell that requires a few turns to complete. They are devouring an entire city here.