http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/CASA_Logo2.jpg

CASA
- The Council Aeronautics and Space Administration –



Mission Center: Engineering

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/Cockpit.jpgCockpit: (320) Spaceflight. Aluminum

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/DockingBay.jpgDocking Bay: (160) Spaceflight. Aluminum

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/Engine.jpgEngine: (640) Spaceflight. Aluminum

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/ExCasing.jpgExterior Casing: (640) Synthetic Fibers. Aluminum + Rubber

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/FuelCells.jpgFuel Cells: (160) Superconductor. Uranium

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/LifeSupport.jpgLife Support: (320) Superconductor. Aluminum

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/Party.jpgParty Lounge: (160) Laser. Aluminum

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/Stasis.jpgStasis Chamber: (320) Robotics. Aluminum + Uranium

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/Storage.jpgStorage/Supply: (160) Synthetic Fibers. Aluminum

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/Thrusters.jpgThrusters: (320) Satellites. Aluminum



Mission Center: Resources

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/Alum.jpgAluminum: Cockpit, Docking Bay, Engine, Exterior Casing, Party Lounge, Stasis Chamber, Storage/Supply, Thrusters.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/Rubb.jpgRubber: Exterior Casing

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/Ura.jpgUranium: Fuel Cells, Stasis Chamber



Mission Center: Technology

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/Tech_SythFibers.jpg(8400): Exterior Casing, Storage/Supply

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/Tech_SpaceFlight.jpg(9000): Cockpit, Docking Bay, Engine, Apollo Program

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/Tech_SuperCon.jpg (9000): Fuel Cells, Life Support

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/Tech_Satellites.jpg(7800): Thrusters Whole Map Revealed

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/Tech_Laser.jpg (8400): Party Lounge

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/Tech_Robotics.jpg (9600): Stasis Chamber



Hope this reference guide is helpful!
Let the discussion begin on the best way to get this Space Ship off to Alpha Centauri!!

To add to that we will also need as prereqs:
Ecology 7800 (SABER currently researching)
Miniaturization 9600 (Next turn)
Nuclear Power 8400

So without Ecology and Miniaturization we need 60,600 beakers.

Currently we are making a little over 2000 beakers per turn at 100% however that won't last.

At 1500 beakers per turn that is 41 turns
At 1750 beakers per turn that is 35 turns
At 2000 beakers per turn that is 31 turns

As for tech routes there are 4 techs we need to get to in order to launch (everything else is a prereq):
Robotics:Moble Artilery, I'm thinking second
Satellites:Reveals map but becomes much more useful if nukes are needed
Superconductors:Not useful and should be last
Synthetic Fibers:I'm thinking top priority for modern armor, even so much that we research it ourselves even if SABER researches it too. Also the only rubber part.

As for building parts now or later I think Apollo (500 shields) should be built now. The reasoning is we may have a 1 turn warning if we are going to be attacked and can switch to parts (Casing especially) if we are going to lose the resource.

As for where to build Apollo the capital makes some sense because we need to hold that anyway to keep the space ship. Silo and Gulag also make sense being the center and hard to get to, besides if we don't have any parts then the capital can afford to be lost. With spies out there it would make sense to build parts later as long as we can.

Good analysis dl but we'll get all the techs faster if we get the tech deal with SABER. I agree synthetic fibers are a top priority but I think we can rely on getting that from SABER through trade. I like the idea of heading to robotics but then chaging gears towards satellites if Manhattan is built.

Niklas said we'd paint a big target on ourselves once we build Apollo. I was a bit skeptical of that since it must be clear to all that we are trying for a space win. But now that we know SABER has espionage I agree that we should hold off on Apollo and try to build the ship all at once the turn after Apollo is completed. That means less risk of our capitol getting nuked and / or attacked.

2 x 640s. Palace, Battlefield Medicine
4 x 320s.
4 x 160s.

For all but two parts, a solar plant can be used as a prebuild. :thumbsup:

Engine and Casing (640 each) could be prebuild with >=500s wonders (Battlefield Medicine and palace), to the final turn if The Treasury or (The Chamber) has ~499s the turn before. (~180spt (~170spt) with nuclear and Mfg plants)

We should hide building Apollo as long as possible because of spys...
Although building solar plants in four towns also paints quite a target...

But it's good to have some options when we decide where to place Apollo.

We will soon have fibers leaving just five techs and 43,800 beakers left to research. My guess is we will complete research on the last required tech in about 33 turns after finishing fibers. (See discussion below.) I took a stab at laying out the timing of our spaceship build assuming we want to build Apollo at the last minute and have pre-builds ready for all ten parts set to complete the turn after we build Apollo.

Since we're mobilizing soon an additional constraint is to be able to remain mobilized as long as possible. I will assume we will not use unit pre-builds during mobilization. Under mobilization we are limited in the invisible pre-builds that are available. We have only one battlefield medicine (500s) pre-build and airports (160s). For visible pre-builds we have Manhattan and Universal Suffrage (800s each) and the United Nations (1000s). We will have to decide what level of invisibility we want to maintain, remembering that our plans are always susceptible to being uncovered by spies.

We will have to devote 11 cities to the Apollo and SS parts pre-builds. If we plan on using our top 11 production cities for these pre-builds, does it make sense to say mobilized as long as possible? I guess we could use lower production cities at least for the 160s parts. :hmm: The airport pre-builds cover these nicely. We have enough cities doing ~10spt that could be used for these.

That still leaves four parts @320s, two @640s and Apollo @500s with only 160s airports and one 500s Battlefield Medicine for (invisible) pre-builds. Airports will only work for one turn in The Treasury, and two turns in The Chamber, The Institute, The Admiralty and The Silo. The options are to demobilize several turns before launching (in order to be able to use solar plants (320s) and the palace for pre-builds) or use Manhattan, US and UN as (visible) pre-builds. The latter option also means we forego building Manhattan and nukes. Even using the three wonders as pre-builds we can only get three of the 320s SS parts not quite half-way with pre-builds. The conclusion is we'll have to demobilize some turns before launching.

Here's my time line. t = the turn we launch our SS.


t-16: Begin 160s SS part (airport pre-build) in The Phoenix (10spt).
t-14: Begin 160s SS part (airport pre-build) in The Marina (12spt).
t-11: Begin 160s SS part (airport pre-build) in The Pier and The New Yard (15spt each).
t-9: Begin 640s SS part (airport pre-build) in The Institute (72spt) and The Chamber (78spt).
t-7: Switch The Chamber and The Institute to a wonder pre-build.
t-6: Begin Apollo (Battlefield Medicine pre-build) in The Treasury (102spt).
t-6: Begin 320s SS part (airport pre-build) in The Gulag, The Arboretum, The Silo and The Admiralty (53 spt).
t-3: Demobilize.
t-3: Switch The Gulag, The Arboretum, The Silo and The Admiralty to solar plant prebuilds and MM shields to at least 54spt.
t-2: Switch The Treasury to Apollo.
t-1: Finish researching last tech.
t-1: Build Apollo in The Treasury.
t-1: Switch all pre-builds to appropriate SS part.
t: Complete all SS parts and launch.


This plan let's us stay mobilized the longest. Any spies in our country would not see our spaceship progress until the turn before we launch. We do have to use wonder pre-builds as early as seven turns before our launch and this may tip off our rivals. If we use Manhattan they may think we want nukes. If we use the UN we might be able to sell that as a legit build since by then SABER and FREE will know we have a BABE settler sequestered. Once we demobilize our competition may discern our plans if they investigate the cities building solar plants. The troubling aspect of that is they will also be able to easily calculate the timing of our launch. They would only have a couple turns to react though.

I'm not a micro-manager so I'm not certain this is the best plan but I think it is doable. Some of the pre-builds are tight with little overflow meaning pollution could end up costing us a turn. :eek: We also have to begin the 160s SS part pre-builds early meaning we need an accurate estimate of when we will finish the last tech and we'll need it 16 turns ahead of time. We could substitute The Aerie and The Meeting Room for The Phoenix and The Marina cutting our lead time down by five turns. We may want to keep those two cities on military production though. :dunno:

When is t? We will have fibers on turn 226. I assume we will research in the following order: laser (8400), robotics (9600), space flight (9000), satellites (7800) and superconductor (9000). I estimate we'll have 1200g in the treasury box and this assumes we don't spend any gold. Here's my estimate for research times:

Laser: turn 232 (5 turns @80% and 1 turn @40% costing us 150g leaving 1050g)
Robotics: turn 238 (5 turns @80% and 1 turn @100% costing us 800g leaving 250g)
Space flight: turn 245 (6 turns @70% and 1 @50% netting us 200g leaving 450g)
Satellites: turn 251 (5 turns @70% and 1 turn @60% netting us 100g leaving 550g)
Superconductor: turn 258 (6 turns @70% and 1 turn @50% netting us 200g leaving 750g)

I used the turn 224 save and CA II for these estimates/guesses. I was conservative since I am not sure how many units we'll be building while mobilized. Each unit we build will cost us 2gpt.

If this time line is correct we'll be able to launch on turn 259. We'd have to demobilize on turn 256. We'd also have to begin our 160s pre-builds before we get spaceflight. Actually we'd have to begin the 10spt pre-builds before we start researching space flight.

Comments welcome.

couple of questions:

Don't we have mil trad? have we built the military academy yet? Or do we need an army in the field to do that - I can never remember. My guess is that we'll be attacked before that, so may gain another 500 shield prebuild...

Did we figure out if we keep shields from building a unit when we demobilize? Like, from building a tank.

This is good analysis, donsig!! I doubt we'll fool anyone with it, mind you, but it's great analysis none-the-less.

One major problem is we can be denied the SS easily by someone taking SCI and our rubber, which we need for 1 part.

We need a victorious army in order to build the Military Academy - so we'd need a leader first.

I see only two alternatives for the rubber. Either we build Apollo ASAP and start the part we need that uses rubber or we defend SCI. We've already begun airlifting units to SCI and mobilizing will help us crank put more units to defend the island.

thanks for your work in getting this started Donsig! :salute:

How realistic is it for us to hold SubCom Island? Relying on holding that island makes me really, really nervous.

It'd be nice to have the Space Ship be a big surprise in 2 turns right at the end, but when we don't participate in the scramble for a Domination win - it's going to be obvious what we're doing anyway.
Unless we have a real solid way to hang on to Sub Committee Island, I think we're better off getting the pre-builds going while we still have access to rubber.

Excellent work, donsig, and also in the mobilization thread. You're on fire with data.:goodjob:

One small point that doesn't really change anything, I think, is that oddly enough Universal Suffrage is not an available pre-build in war-time.

I already feel better about our chances as we are mobilizing next turn and will have modern armor first to boot. Research times are lagging for Saber who will soon be out of their GA (8 turns?) and Free as well as they grow their militaries. Free just took 7 turns to get ecology which was much cheaper than the monopoly price of 7800. They have another 7-8 turns to get to modern armor and by then it may be too late for them. Neither have any realistic chance of beating us to space or out-teching us even if we slow our research.

If Free wants to build nukes, the biggest danger to us, they'll need another 15-16 turns of research to get space flight or at least several turns to attempt steals. Saber may build Manhattan's for us and get to space flight solving our pre-build and some defense problems as they attempt to destroy Free. Luckily, we have an anti-nuke treaty with them until Free is eliminated. I think that will be profoundly hard for them to do before we can launch. Neither Saber or Free are anywhere close to domination without almost totally defeating the other. Ganging up they could probably defeat us, but that would just lead to a stalemate, imo, and neither wants that.

We need to think about when an attack is likely to happen as I think it will likely be SCI island they come for first. We need to defend it almost at all costs, as without rubber we have almost no chance to survive a sustained attack much less launch the spaceship. We'll need many jets there for air superiority and should probably concentrate our bombers there as well. If our EWS spots an invasion fleet we must dow immediately and can then transfer 16 or more mechs there in addition to the build-up we're starting. I don't know if we can do it, but I think so, and we sure have to try.

Spies will be a good thing for us so we know what we are up against and we need to think about getting them sometime soon. I agree we also need to watch our treasury as cash can be very useful in an emergency. We might even think about slowing our research a bit to increase our strength.

Here's what I think...

We should build apollo program in The Meeting Room with a prebuild battleship. It is unlikely that they will investigate all cities, and a coastal city that is "almost" inland is very unlikely. We go wartime next turn and can switch over to a battleship and get the bonus, then when we approach 200 sheilds we switch to battlefield medicine. When we approach 500 shields we will hopefully have space flight and so we go out of wartime for a single turn. The following turn we go back into wartime and stay that for the remainer of the game, as we can build spaceship parts in wartime afaik.

Other options are to find places where there is rubber in the world and prepare plans to take one of those spots for a turn for the rubber, of course. All we need is to have it for a turn.

My guess is that we get attacked within 5-6 turns of having space flight whether we show parts done or not - it will depend on how fast our research is going.

Can we research advanced flight and save up gold to help us run deficit research and cut time off of some of the other techs? I'd really like to have radar towers if we can - will be a nice help to defense and counterattacks.

Yes, we can start and build SS parts when mobilized. This is not a bad idea Yilar. Here's a closer look at your idea:

The Meeting Room has 22s in the bin and will make 36spt on a battleship under mobilization. If we cut back shield production slightly we can use the battleship pre-build until turn 229 when we'd have to switch over to Battlefield Medicine. At that point The Meeting Room reverts back to 24spt. This puts the city over 500 shields on turn 242. Adding 1spt to The Meeting Room's production gets us one shield short of making 500s by turn 241. This is the earliest we could build Apollo in The Meeting Room (and it assumes we won't lose the bonus shields when we switch from the battleship pre-build).

My best estimate for getting space flight is on turn 245. If we finished the sub in The Meeting Room (on turn 226) and then started the battleship pre-build we could time the Apollo build for turn 246 by lowering The Meeting Room's production to 23spt (after switching to BM on turn 213) and lowering it a bit more on turn 244.

The scenario above assumes we research both the laser and robotics before space flight. If we bumped space flight up in the queue (after the laser) we could have it on turn 240 just in time to switch The Meeting Room over to Apollo for the build on turn 241.

Some bad news. In trying to fit Yilar's idea into the schedule I worked up yesterday I found that I was not correctly calculating the impact of the increased support costs on our budget. By keeping the research rate as high as I suggested and building as many units as we can under mobilization we'd hit a treasury deficit on turn 235 that would keep growing and growing. My calculations were based on cranking out 200 units by turn 259 resulting in a total support cost of over 8000 gold (above and beyond the 50gpt we're paying for the units we currently have). The research rates I suggested only drained 166g from the treasury but it is obvious that we cannot build (and support) 200 new units and we will have to cut back our research rates and times to support whatever we do build.

Given the realization that we cannot launch by turn 259 (unless we leave our defenses at a minimum) I am now much more inclined to build Apollo sooner rather than later. Starting the SS paints a target on us but I'm not sure we can avoid that.

The quickest we could have Apollo is on turn 233. We could do that by researching space flight after getting fibers. Five turns at 80 percent and one at 70 percent and we'd have about 200g left (assuming we built about 45 units during that time and didn't spend gold on anything else). The Chamber, The Treasury, The Institute and possibly The Gulag or the Silo could be used in this time frame. I'm not suggesting we do this, I'm only pointing out the possibility.

Yilar's idea has merit and we can have space flight by turn 240 with over 500g left even if we have an additional 100 units by then. We'd finish fibers on turn 226 (at 90%), research the laser in 7 turns (6 @70% and 1 @20%) and then do space flight in 7 turns (6 @70% and 1 @50%). (Keep in mind this doesn't include paying to plant spies or upgrade units, etc.)

From there things depend our gold situation. If we've not spent any gold we could do satellites in 8 turns while continuing to build units fast. We could support this research rate and have about 160 more units than we now have. That takes us to turn 248 with two expensive techs left to research: superconductor (9000) and robotics (9600). These techs are required for three SS parts (160s and 2 320s).

We might get some cash from SABER for techs though. But of course we shouldn't count on it. But in any case, I'm all for an early Apollo.

We should contact saber and set up a deal for the future. Even though it is somewhat long term I would still like to know which techs they would actually be interested in.

Here's what I think...

We should build apollo program in The Meeting Room with a prebuild battleship. It is unlikely that they will investigate all cities, and a coastal city that is "almost" inland is very unlikely. We go wartime next turn and can switch over to a battleship and get the bonus, then when we approach 200 sheilds we switch to battlefield medicine. When we approach 500 shields we will hopefully have space flight and so we go out of wartime for a single turn. The following turn we go back into wartime and stay that for the remainer of the game, as we can build spaceship parts in wartime afaik.

After thinking this over I'm against using The Meeting Room to build Apollo. If we decide to abandon the idea of launching our SS the turn after building Apollo then I suggest we build Apollo near our core. The whole idea behind building Apollo early is to reduce our dependence on rubber by starting (and hopefully completing) the one spaceship part that requires rubber (exterior casing, 640s, requires synthetic fibers). The idea of building Apollo and the casing early is appealing since it basically relieves us of defending SCI. In that event we might as well keep Apollo close to our core. Having it in The Meeting Room requires us to defend both our core and the west coast equally. Having to defend only our core could be crucial if we're involved in a last minute invasion before we launch.

I like the idea of building Apollo early - we're not going to fool anyone by delaying it.

However - don't forget - we need to defend BOTH Apollo and The Chamber.
If they burn our capital, the space race is over then, also.

However - don't forget - we need to defend BOTH Apollo and The Chamber.
If they burn our capital, the space race is over then, also.

Hmm, I learned the hard way in a game I played once that destroying the town with the Apollo Program does not end their space race. I had spent a bunch of bucks investigating the ai's cities and successfully invaded and destroyed the Apollo Program and was horrified when it did not work. They won two turns later as I had no time to also destroy their capital.

:hmm: - so do we not need to defend Apollo at all then?
Is there any consequence for losing it? Maybe we just lose the ability to start new SS part builds?

Does anyone know?

Okay, I just tested this and yes you need Apollo to build parts. If it goes you lose your pre-builds and must rebuild it to start parts again. It does not destroy parts already built or destroy your spaceship like losing the capital does, however. Of course, if we are to the point of losing mainland cities a launch might be difficult anyway...

donsig suggested we start a prebuild for Apollo and restart research.

I figured we should talk about this.

I second donsig's suggestion. :D

It may be too early to start. :dunno: Yilar has been saying he thinks FREE is researching space flight and so we should hold off. I'm not sure they are researching it. If they have started it then they will get it before we do and we'll still end up witht he beaker discount, right?

My main concern is that if we cannot secure our own rubber and have to go begging to FREE for it we may or may not get it. Sure, FREE might want us to have rubber to continue to fight SABER, but if SABER never lands on our mainland then we won't need to fight them. Even if FREE does send us rubber for fighting SABER they (FREE) will want to pull the plug on the rubber if they think we are close to launching. So I think we're better off getting space flight and Apollo ASAP (assuming we have rubber) so we can get the casing started.

It depends on to much right now, how well the battle for new rubber goes and if FREE gives us some rubber. If FREE were smart they would give rubber until the turn we get space flight, because then the quickest we can start the part is the next turn (assuming we timed the Apollo correctly not to mention our demobilization with BABE or even FREE).

So if we are able to take some rubber and can hold it till 1 turn after Apollo then turn on research now.

If the battle does not go so well or we can't keep the island and FREE gives us rubber then do not do space flight but save up for max research and do robotics first.

If the battle does not go well and FREE does not come through with rubber then we have bigger problems.

Don't forget we only need rubber for one turn once we have Apollo, land take rubber for 1 turn start building the part, of course by then we will be the target of the world (wait we are already kind of there :lol: )

If we can't secure one of the many island rubbers with 80+ armors then we truely suck! As for building apollo i'm fine with that, the only problem with that is the fact that we have to get out of wartime. Also if we start building the casing the others are gonna know, you can see it if you have a spy (which I'm assuming they do).

We really ought to be able to get rubber one way or another.
Unless FREE rolls over here in the next turn or two and comes back for a real invasion [highly unlikely, imo]

So what we need now is a plan to go from Space Flight to Apollo, to SS Launch as FAST AS POSSIBLE.

From the moment we get spaceflight and build Apollo we'll go to the top of the enemy list like a rocket. We've got to have a solid plan to keep this time to an absolute minimum.

Any expert MMers want to take a crack at that? :help:

Here is a table of our current (turn 244) production:
City mob spt reg spt
The Gulag 122 87
The Chamber 122 90
The Treasury 120 88
The Silo 86 60
The Institute 80 60
The Admiralty 64 44
The Aerie 62 42
The Igloo 62 42
The Arboretum 58 38
The Meeting Room 36 24
The Bayou 33 20
The Pier 29 17
The Red Tape 28 19
The Phoenix 23 16
The New Yard 21 15
The Ways 16 12
The Marina 13 9
Chamsuri's Cove 13 8
The Nusery 12 8
The Squeeze 5 3
The Shallows 5 4
The Dislodged 4 3
The Beach 2 1
The Greenhouse 2 1
Caunagawaga 1 1
The Hideaway 1 1
Cattaraugus 1 1
The Bangles 1 1We must decide where we will build Apollo and the spaceship parts. The idea is to time the Apollo build to coincide with getting the last tech we need and spaceship parts the turn after that (about 35 and 36 turns from turn 244).

Anyone know if we can use the mobilization bonus and then convert to Apollo or a spaceship part?

The cheapest part is 160 shields (there are 4). To pre-build 160 shields in 35 turns we need 5 spt (or 4 spt with some in the bin already). If we use low production coastal cities (and can use the mobilization bonus) then we can use carriers or battleships as prebuilds for these 4 parts. The Dislodged, The Shallows, The Squeeze and The Nursery are prime candidates.

Then there are 4 parts that cost 320 shields. Under mobilization the best prebuilds we have are modern armor (120 shields) or battleships (200 shields) in coastal towns. :(

Two parts cost 640 shields. We'd have to use the UN and Manhattan as prebuilds for these tipping our hand a bit. Under mobilization it seems the best pre-build we can use before the wonders is modern armor at 120 shields (or battleships in coastal towns).

Apollo is 500 shields. Battlefield medicine would be the prebuild here.

Ok, so now I'm a bit stumped. If we want to launch the turn after building Apollo we need to get out of mobilization permanently some turns before we finish Apollo - so we can have access to prebuilds. That means we would lose the mobilization bonus affecting what I already calculated for the 160 shield prebuilds. I have a headache now. :(

No one can see if we built Apollo though unless they investigate the city that has it, so the timing of Apollo can be anytime after Space Flight.

So the timing of Apollo is better suited with whenever we get out of mobilization. After its built we can remobilize if we want to. This frees up one prebuild for a 640 shield build however the best we can do is 2 turns from there.

If nukes are available ICBM's become great prebuilds at 500 shields and can be built during mobilization however don't get the mobilization bonus. I don't think we can get a city to 141 shields though so it will still be 2 turns for the 640 shield builds if we want to hide the builds as long as possible. So that would be 1 turn wonder (or even space ship part for 2 turns).

If nukes are not available I can see us not remobilizing so that we can use manufacturing plants for most of the prebuilds, at 320 shields it covers most of the prebuilds.

Building nukes are also great deterrents, should someone try to investigate our towns. :ack:

... but would also be targets for sabotage I'm sure.

We're just going to have to factor in sabotage.
Can we estimate how expensive it would be to sabotage an expensive pre-build?

Depending on the cost, I'd say at least 2 or 3 extra pre-builds will be necessary to ensure the spies don't ruin our plans.

:bump:

Seems this is the best place to work through the pre-build discussion.

:bump:

Seems this is the best place to work through the pre-build discussion.
Now that's a start... :mischief: :D

:bump:

Seems this is the best place to work through the pre-build discussion.

The first thing we must decide is when are we going to build Apollo.

I am of the opinion to build it right away, as soon as possible. We are not fooling anyone by not building it. Build it in the capital because we lose the space ship if we lose the capital anyway. Position most of the subs to protect the capital. Also its going to be hard enough to time the rest of the space ship parts, building it now frees up a city or 2.

This means we get out of mobilization earlier rather then later, but since we are building wealth in many of our cities anyway that doesn't matter. This gives us the Manufacturing Plant (320 shields) as a prebuild.

So we have Apollo in 6 turns after Space Flight. We have both techs in 9 turns after Space Flight.

Using donsig's production chart:
Here is a table of our current (turn 244) production:
City mob spt reg spt
The Gulag 122 87
The Chamber 122 90
The Treasury 120 88
The Silo 86 60
The Institute 80 60
The Admiralty 64 44
The Aerie 62 42
The Igloo 62 42
The Arboretum 58 38
The Meeting Room 36 24
The Bayou 33 20
The Pier 29 17
The Red Tape 28 19
The Phoenix 23 16
The New Yard 21 15
The Ways 16 12
The Marina 13 9
Chamsuri's Cove 13 8
The Nusery 12 8
The Squeeze 5 3
The Shallows 5 4
The Dislodged 4 3
The Beach 2 1
The Greenhouse 2 1
Caunagawaga 1 1
The Hideaway 1 1
Cattaraugus 1 1
The Bangles 1 1


For prebuilds we need 2 640 parts, 4 320 parts and 4 160 parts.

The Chamber will only have 3 turns of building so it can do a 320 part.
The Gulag (palace prebuild) and Treasury (Battlefield Medicine prebuild) can do 640 parts in 8 turns however we should employee a backup or 2. Therefore The Silo (UN prebuild) and The Institute (Manhattan Project prebuild) should also be planning for 640 parts, if nothing occurs then they go into the 320 parts, however we should plan on having some of our prebuilds destroyed. It will take these two cities 11 turns to get the production, so they need to start one turn before space flight.

Next 4 cities on the list are The Admiralty, The Aerie, The Igloo, The Arboretum, they will need about 9 turns to get 320 shields. Manufacturing Plant are perfect prebuilds for these

Finally we have The Meeting Room, The Bayou, The Pier, The Red Tape, The Phoenix, The New Yard, put them all on 7-10 turns for prebuilds.

Everything else stays on wealth.

If we see any signs of trouble then turn over some extra builds to modern armors and subs, however feel free to finish some parts depending on the situation, the cat will be out of the bag by then.

I think a plan like this gives us most flexibility because FREE and SABER will not just let us leave the planet without a fight. Its not perfect and I bet it can be improved upon but its a good start and sets some of the ideas (early demobilization, early Apollo, extra prebuilds) up for debate.

Thanks for getting this started dl :salute:

I'll spend more time digesting it later - but I really like it after just 2 reads. :thumbsup:

I agree that there's no sense in delaying Apollo till the bitter end... however, I think there is psychological value in delaying it at least until Saber and FREE seem committed to war with each other. If we build it before then, we might jolt some fence-sitters on those teams into demanding they join with the other team to destroy us first.

Hopefully we'll see a massive FREE-Saber war break out before we even get spaceflight - in which case your proposal for Apollo will be perfect. If FREE and Saber don't go to war... :dunno: ... then I'm not so sure.

Good start! We'll have to double check the production figures. Those from turn 244 were before we lost the ivory on ACI and some MMing has been done here and there to prevent riots and alleviate food shortages. We'll also have to take another look at our gold situation to see if we're still on track to have enough gold to keep research at max. Switching away from wealth will bring huge deficits back.

A few questions:

Why wait till six turns after space flight to build Apollo? We could time a pre-build to finish it one turn after Apollo, couldn't we?
If we do that, then should we also pre-build whatever SS parts we can build now? We'd get the mobilization shield bonus and could start the rubber dependent casing, but SABER and FREE would see our progress.
That leads to the question of whether we still want to build the spaceship all at once the turn after we get the last tech or build it piecemeal.
Once we've built Apollo should we mobilize again?

A few questions:

Why wait till six turns after space flight to build Apollo? We could time a pre-build to finish it one turn after Apollo, couldn't we?
If we do that, then should we also pre-build whatever SS parts we can build now? We'd get the mobilization shield bonus and could start the rubber dependent casing, but SABER and FREE would see our progress.
That leads to the question of whether we still want to build the spaceship all at once the turn after we get the last tech or build it piecemeal.
Once we've built Apollo should we mobilize again?



I like that idea better. If it takes 6 turns to build Apollo then we will need to start our prebuild in the capital in a few turns.
We do not have a good prebuild under mobilization unless someone builds Manhattan Project.
I would go with all at once however I don't think that will work, FREE and SABER have 1 turn of sabotage and I bet some our prebuilds will be destroyed. Exposing the spy will help but there is still a good chance they will hit again. General W also had a good point about if FREE and SABER are at war, however I'm sure once we have 1 part done we will become the target.
Again we do not have a good prebuild and if we do mobilize then we still don't get the mobilization shields for space parts or for anything up to 200 shields. I would rather not.

Anyone know what the on cost of sabotage is?

Anyone know what the on cost of sabotage is?

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/strategy/espionage_missions.php

dist * level + 10 * shield

Where level is 1-3 based on the size of the city (1 being <7, 2 being 6<x<13, 3 being >12)

Times that by 1.5 for careful and 2 for safe.

A safe sabotage FREE succeeds 68% and SABER 76%

Seeing that I feel better about how many parts they can destroy. With 600 shields already in the bin in a metro will cost them over 6000 gold, however they only have to stop a single city with 160 shields maybe costing 2000 gold with a 48% or 56% chance of success.

I feel much better about sabotage now. Maybe we can even cut back one or two backup cities from my plan.

I have updated production and research figures as of turn 255. A few points to keep in mind:

We should use police in The Treasury, The Gulag, The Institute and The Arboretum.
We are using clowns in many cities to avoid riots.
After the clowns and police we still have 13 specialists that can be used as tax collectors or scientists as needed.
We've been using wealth to offset our research deficits.
We must still research space flight (9000), Superconductor (9000) and satellites (7800).
We still have to build Apollo and 10 SS parts.
Here is our current base beakers and gpt without wealth, taxmen or scientists:
Sci. beakers gold
100 1941 -560
90 1750 -461
80 1549 -347
70 1368 -251
60 1166 -141
50 982 -39
40 767 77
30 572 185
20 391 288
10 191 393
0 0 502With 13 specialists we can add a mix of gold and beakers as needed. Tax men collect 2 gpt and scientists generate 3 bpt, correct?

Using these figures we get the following for quickest research and its cost:
Tech cost (b) sci 100% turns 100% (b) last turn % total (b)
space flight 9000 5 4 7824 60 9005
superconductor 9000 5 4 7824 60 9005
satellites 7800 3 4 7800 7800
Tech tax 100% turns 100% (g) last turn % total
space flight 8 4 -2176 60 -2018
superconductor 8 4 -2176 60 -2018
satellites 10 4 -2160 -2160

Total cost -6196So, in order to research the remaining three techs in 14 turns the cost is 6196g. We have 2497g in our treasury so we need 3699g over 14 turns (or 265gpt) from wealth. We are currently pulling in 254gpt from wealth. The question is can we find another 11gpt in wealth and still prebuild our spaceship with the remaining (corrupt and wasteful) cities?

Here are current (turn 255) production figures:
City Mob spt Reg spt wealth Port? Spec. in bin 255
The Gulag 132 95 47 No 0 0
The Chamber 114 84 42 No 2 0
The Treasury 116 84 42 No 0 0
The Institute 80 60 30 No 0 0
The Silo 78 54 27 No 1 0
The Arboretum 62 44 22 No 0 0
The Aerie 62 42 21 No 0 0
The Igloo 60 40 20 No 0 0
The Admiralty 72 50 25 Yes 1 72
The Mtg Rm 36 24 12 Yes 2 0
The Red Tape 28 19 9 Yes 1 140
The Phoenix 23 16 8 Yes 1 115
The Pier 25 15 7 Yes 0 0
The Bayou 25 14 7 Yes 2 125
Chamsuri's Cove 18 12 6 Yes 0 108
The New Yard 13 9 4 Yes 0 26
The Nursery 12 8 4 Yes 0 0
The Marina 10 7 3 Yes 1 20
The Ways 8 6 3 Yes 0 0
The Shallows 5 4 2 Yes 0 75
The Dislodged 4 3 1 Yes 0 68
The Squeeze 5 3 1 Yes 0 75
The Beach 3 2 1 Yes 1 39
The Greenhouse 2 1 1 Yes 0 22
The Hideaway 1 1 1 Yes 0 14
The OGI 1 1 1 Yes 1 0
The Whale Pond 1 1 1 Yes 0 1

Total 348 13

I would rather "waste" one more turn of research, to make it 15, and ensure that we have all the prebuilds in place. If it's possible in 14 turns then we should of course go for that though.

We might have to waste more than one turn of research to do all the prebuilds. We really need a build plan so we can see how much wealth we can still generate and then plan our research (or non-research) accordingly. Any general thoughts on whether it's more efficient to try to prebuild Apollo and all ten parts to build at once at the end or to build in stages. I guess we should look at both scenarios.

Assuming we can pull this off in the minimum time we'll need 14 turns to research the techs and one more turn to complete the SS and launch. That's 15 turns of production. I began by looking at getting the maximum battleship prebuilds our 4 top ports and using these for the 320s parts. It would take 6 non-mobilized turns to accumulate rest of the 320 shields in The Admiralty, The Meeting Room, The Red Tape and The Phoenix. I gathered total production figures assuming we have 9 turns of mobilization bonus and 6 turns regular production:
City bin Mob*9 Reg*6 Total Total + bin
The Gulag 0 1188 570 1758 1758
The Treasury 0 1044 504 1548 1548
The Chamber 0 1026 504 1530 1530
The Institute 0 720 360 1080 1080
The Admiralty 72 648 300 948 1020
The Silo 0 702 324 1026 1026
The Arboretum 0 558 264 822 822
The Aerie 0 558 252 810 810
The Igloo 0 540 240 780 780
The Red Tape 140 252 114 366 506
The Mtng Rm 0 324 144 468 468
The Bayou 125 225 84 309 434
The Phoenix 115 207 96 303 418
Chamsuri's Cv 108 162 72 234 342
The Pier 0 225 90 315 315
The New Yard 26 117 54 171 197
The Nursery 0 108 48 156 156
The Marina 20 90 42 132 152
The Shallows 75 45 24 69 144
The Squeeze 75 45 18 63 138
The Dislodged 68 36 18 54 122
The Ways 0 72 36 108 108
The Beach 39 27 12 39 78
The Greenhouse 22 18 6 24 46
The Hideaway 14 9 6 15 29
The Whale Pond 1 9 6 15 16
The OGI 0 9 6 15 15
We have eight cities that can't even build the 160s parts in time.
The Nursery, The Marina and The Shallows might be able to build a 160s part if production can be tweaked.
The New Yard can do a 160s part.
The Pier might be able to do a 320s part if tweaked.
The Red Tape, The Meeting Room, Chamsuri's Cove, The Phoenix and The Bayou can do 320s parts.
The Arboretum, The Igloo and The Aerie might be able to build Apollo if production can be increased but we must remember there is one less turn for Apollo than the SS parts.
The Institute, The Admiralty and The Silo can build Apollo.
The Chamber, The Gulag and The Treasury can build the 640s parts.

That's as far as I've gotten so far.

OK, I've put together a rough pre-build plan for our spaceship. The following assumptions are used:

We want to research as fast as we can.
We want to build Apollo at the last minute and the entire spaceship the turn after Apollo.
We want a few pre-builds to guard against sabotage.
We will remain mobilized as long as possible.
Once we drop out of mobilization we will remain in normal production mode.
We will build wealth to finance our research.
We will not build any new military units except for those already begun.
Here's the list of cities doing pre-builds:
City pre-build for
The Admiralty Apollo
The Arboretum 640s
The Aerie 640s
The Igloo 640s
The Meeting Room 320s
The Red Tape 320s
The Phoenix 320s
The Pier 320s
The Bayou 320s
Chamsuri's Cove 160s
The New Yard 160s
The Nursery 160s
The Marina 160s
The Shallows 160sThere is an extra pre-build for each size part. (The extra 640s pre-build also backs up Apollo). The production levels in some cities will have to be tweaked but I think this is doable.
These cities can just build wealth from here on out:
City
The Gulag (47gpt)
The Chamber (42gpt)
The Treasury (42gpt)
The Institute (30gpt)
The Silo (27gpt)
The Ways (3gpt)
The Old Gong Isle (1gpt)The Arboretum, The Aerie and The Igloo can build wealth for a couple turns before beginning their pre-build duty. The Admiralty can build wealth for 5 turns after finishing the nuke sub it has already begun. This will generate about 2950g of the 3699g we need. We can get the remaining gold by shutting off research for one turn. (See timetable below.)
These cities have shields in their bins. We must decide if we'll continue the builds or build something less expensive and then switch to wealth:
City in bin 255
The Beach 39
The Dislodged 68
The Greenhouse 22
The Hideaway 14
The Squeeze 75
The Whale Pond 1They would all make 1gpt building wealth so each city would be worth 15g over 15 turns.

Timetable:

Turn 255: Turn off research, continue existing builds, begin pre-builds were necessary, otherwise build wealth
Turn 256: Begin research of space flight @ 100%
Turn 260: Lower research to 60%
Turn 261: Learn space flight, set research back to 100%, start satellites
Turn 265: Learn satellites, start superconductor, demobilize
Turn 269: Lower research to 60%
Turn 270: Learn superconductor, build Apollo
Turn 271: Build all spaceship parts, launch, win.

I still think we could build Apollo before. I doubt they are gonna inspect all our cities. But I guess it doesn't really matter.

It may be be a bit early to say for sure, but I think we should do satellites last, that is one tech we don't want them to steal.

Your plan sounds good Donsiq, it will be interesting to see if we can get it work :)

Also I think we should ditch the builds in The Whale Pond.
The Hide Away can produce a worker and then wealth.
The Beach can produce a coastal fortress which we can sell the following turn for 10 gold and then wealth.
The Greenhouse can produce a settler which can be joined into one of the other cities as 2 pop and then wealth.
The Squeeze and The Dislodged should produce a regular submarine or mobile sam before wealth.

Also for security reason switching The Squeeze and The Ways may be an idea. The Squeeze is located in the "hot" zone, where we may have to disband cities to limit potential targets, The Ways is not in such a zone.

I like the plan in general, but I would prefer not to build Apollo in a coastal location. Those seem to me to be by far the most vulnerable.

I like the plan in general, but I would prefer not to build Apollo in a coastal location. Those seem to me to be by far the most vulnerable.

I understand your concern but the shortage of pre-builds in mobilization hinders us a bit. The Admiralty can use a battleship pre-build and still get to 500s (but not 640s) so it is a good fit for Apollo. Bear in mind that we do have an extra 640s pre-build and our rivals will have only one turn to destroy Apollo anyway.

Summary: We need two turns of zero research to gather gold. (Or do one turn of zero research and find 500g some other way.) Also, rough plan had to change since The Bayou and The Phoenix were not viable for 320s pre-builds. Had to swap them for The Institute and The Silo (after we demobilize). Things are very tight, though two turns of zero research gives us some gold to work with. I estimate a 393g surplus when we finish teching. Beaker overage is 5b or less on each tech. Of the 14 prebuilds half have overages of 4 shields or less. Pollution could easily wreak havoc though our extra pre-builds help guard against this as well as sabotage. I've had to update some of the data I posted earlier. I left the prior posts alone and just include the new data here. I'll also try to attach my spreadsheet though I use Open Office.

Turn 255:
Escape through peace offers.
Press 'enter' through tech and build notices.
Run EWS.
Move ships back to port.
No bombing.
Move transport to The Hideaway.
Workers continue barricade ring.
OGI jet does recon.

Switch clown to taxman in The New Yard and The Bayou.
Switch engineer to taxman in The Whale Pond.
Switch specialists to police in The Treasury, The Arboretum, The Institute and The Gulag.
Switch remaining scientists to tax men.
16 taxmen total.

The New Yard: irr grass to coast (clown back to tax man)
The Pier: ocean to igg grass
Camsuri's Cove: lake to coast
The Aerie: bg to lake
The Shallows: coast to bg

The Admiralty: continues nuke sub (1)
The Bayou: continues nuke sub (1)
The Red Tape finishes carrier (2)
The Phoneix: continues nuke sub (2)
Chamsuri's Cove: continues nuke sub (2)
The Hideaway: change to worker (1), 4 shields dumped
The Whale Pond: change to wealth, 1 shield dumped
The Greenhouse: change to paratrooper (pre-build for settler in 5)
The Beach: Change to coastal fortress (1), to be sold next turn for 10g
The Squeeze: Change to mobile SAM (5)
The Dislodged: Continues mobile SAM (8)
The New Yard, The Nursery, The Shallows and The Marina all switch to battle ship pre-builds
All other cities build wealth. (The Pier, The Meeting Room and The Old Gong Isle must be switched.)Raw beakers and gold numbers:Sci. beakers gold
100 1943 -560
90 1752 -461
80 1552 -347
70 1371 -251
60 1168 -141
50 984 -39
40 767 87
30 575 185
20 391 290
10 193 393
0 0 503Research time and costs:
Tech cost (b) sci 100% turns 100% (b) last turn % total (b)
space flight 9000 4 4 7820 60 9000
superconductor 9000 4 4 7820 60 9000
satellites 7800 3 4 7808 7808

Tech tax Rev. 100% turns 100% (g) last turn % LT (g) Cost
space flight 12 120 4 -2240 60 -141 -2381
superconductor 12 120 4 -2240 60 -141 -2381
satellites 13 104 4 -2240 -2240

Total cost -7002Production figures:
City Mob spt Reg spt wealth Port? Spec. in bin 255
The Gulag 132 95 47 No 0 0
The Chamber 114 84 42 No 2 0
The Treasury 116 84 42 No 0 0
The Institute 80 60 30 No 0 0
The Silo 78 54 27 No 1 0
The Arboretum 62 44 22 No 0 0
The Aerie 55 37 18 No 0 0
The Igloo 60 40 20 No 0 0
The Admiralty 72 50 25 Yes 1 72
The Mtg Rm 36 24 12 Yes 2 0
The Red Tape 28 19 9 Yes 1 140
The Phoenix 23 16 8 Yes 1 115
The Pier 27 15 7 Yes 0 0
The Bayou 25 14 7 Yes 3 125
Chamsuri's Cove 18 12 6 Yes 0 108
The New Yard 12 8 4 Yes 1 26
The Nursery 12 8 4 Yes 0 0
The Marina 10 7 3 Yes 1 20
The Ways 8 6 3 Yes 0 0
The Shallows 7 5 2 Yes 0 75
The Dislodged 4 3 1 Yes 0 68
The Squeeze 5 3 1 Yes 0 75
The Beach 3 2 1 Yes 1 39
The Greenhouse 2 1 1 Yes 0 22
The Hideaway 1 1 1 Yes 0 14
The OGI 1 1 1 Yes 1 0
The Whale Pond 1 1 1 Yes 1 1

Total 348 16MM Schedule:
256: The Admiralty, The Beach and The Hideawaybuild wealth
257: The Red Tape, The Phoneix and Chamsuri's Cove build wealth
258: The Shallows (bg to coast); The Aerie (lake to bg)
259: The Arboretum (UN); The Aerie (MP), The Igloo (BM); The Red Tape (battleship); The Pier (battleship); The New Yard (gem mtn to mtn); The Pier (ocean to gem mtn); Note: nets +2g
260: The Greenhouse (wealth); The Squeeze (wealth)
261: The Meeting Room (battleship); Chamsuri's Cove (battleship)
263: The Admiralty (bg to sci and start battleship) Note: To reduce shields to stay under 200s prebuild, sci maintains g and b; The Dislodged (wealth)
265: The Aerie (bg to lake); The Shallows (coast to bg)
266: Demobilize!; The Pier (ocean to mtn); The Abroretum (airfield bg to police); The Red Tape (irr pl to airfield bg) The Institute (manuf. plant); The Silo (manuf. plant) Note: net -3b
271: The Treasury (mtn to police), The Pier (coast to mtn), The Chamber (bg to taxman); The Admiralty (taxman to bg) Note: -9g and -3b netImpact on treasury:Total wealth 3632
255 treasury 2497
raw research -7002
0% research, 1 turn 1006
taxmen 384
sell blgds 10
more units -152
net from MM 18

Total 393

:eek: :thumbsup: Quite a plan! I'll try to check... :scan:

edit:
Quite optimistic, that one - of course.
No riots please, no hostile assault... :shifty:

Rather than forfeiting the shields in The Beach, The Greenhouse and The Hideaway I'd have some more subs - and maybe some more air defense if it helps against stealth attacks... :run:

Did I get it right that we'd stop research in #270 and keep building till #272? :dubious:
Are you sure that we're not into deficite before?
Shouldn't we finish the space ship the turn after finishing the final tech? :hmm:

edit 2: Ah, got it (I think :crazyeye: ), the zero-Research should be at the start...

Quite optimistic, that one - of course.
No riots please, no hostile assault... :shifty:

All bets are off if we're invaded again. But we need to carry on assuming we'll be able to withstand another attack if it comes.

Rather than forfeiting the shields in The Beach, The Greenhouse and The Hideaway I'd have some more subs - and maybe some more air defense if it helps against stealth attacks... :run:

I doubt jets or SAMs will help much against stealth bombers. We could continue with more subs.

Did I get it right that we'd stop research in #270 and keep building till #272? :dubious: ...

edit 2: Ah, got it (I think :crazyeye: ), the zero-Research should be at the start...

The first version of the plan had only one turn of zero research. When I realized we'd be short almost 500g I added another zero research turn and probably just forgot to edit part of the plan when I shifted everything down a turn.

I think I did not get things right with respect to the amount of shields we can stock up during mobilization. I wanted to get as close to the max as possible but think I got too close and the pre-build would actually build on the turn we plan to demobilize. I'll check that tomorrow.

can we jigger some of our northwest costal cities to be more production and apollo prebuild sites? I ask, cause everyone is going to assume our southeast powerhouses will build the vital parts, but one enormous advantage of being commercial is that those cities are less corrupt than they are for FREE or SABER.

I'll take a look at the NW cities. I did look at the plan this morning and there are some cities that would build battleships the turn we planned to leave mobilization. The easiest way to fix that is to just drop out of mobilization a turn early - this doesn't alter the gold situation - but does leave 4 cities short of their shield goal. It's only 28s total (less than 10s per city) and I think they can be made up. Will look at it later and hope to play the save this evening.

Looks like a great plan, looks like you put a lot of work into it :goodjob:

The one thing that still troubles me is the use of wonders for prebuilds for as long as we are going to be.

If I'm reading your chart correctly we need to switch to wonders on 262 Arboretum and Aerie. I think thats going to be the red flag to everyone.

My plan had us demobilize and use manufactoring plants to prebuild, that will give us till turn 265 to switch to the wonders, not much better, that will also mess up the a lot of cities that are depending on the extra shields. In that respect your plan is good as is because I can't think of a way to greatly improve that. Maybe we can start a campain in the UN forum wanting to give them a building to conduct their business in and while we want peace we will back our words with nuclear weapons.

Remember we will need the back up prebuild cities to switch to something else the last turn. The 640 backup can go to a wonder, likewise with the 320 backup. The 160 one can switch to a manufactoring plant. I have a feeling if we make it that far one of those pieces will be destroyed as everyone rushes for our continent.

Very impressive, great work donsig! :thumbsup:

The one thing that worries me is that "beaker overage is 5b or less on each tech", which means a single polluted tile pretty much anywhere will cost us a turn. The shields for prebuilds are less of a problem, but the research is very vulnerable it seems... :shifty:

I think we may have another problem.

Once we build Apollo, our opponents know we can win.

We have 1 source of rubber which we need an improvement to hold... and FREE has stealth bombers, which can cut improvements.

We may need to rush walls, coastal fortress, harbor, lib, temple and other inexpensive improvements in that little city to keep FREE from cutting all the improvements and our access to rubber - without which, we can't build a part.

Other option may be to build apollo, then the one part that needs rubber, then go back to researching - that tips our hand, however.

Other other option is to take out FREE cities that could be holding stealth bombers near that city.

If they do bomb the airport we can always rush a harbor, they would have to sabotage the build every turn if they were to stop us, and there is nothing that prevents us from taking one of the other rubber islands for a turn. Also sooner or later the spy will fail.

The whole plan revolves around surprise, so building the part early is out of the question.

The one thing that worries me is that "beaker overage is 5b or less on each tech", which means a single polluted tile pretty much anywhere will cost us a turn. The shields for prebuilds are less of a problem, but the research is very vulnerable it seems... :shifty:

Yes research is vulnerable but we can track pollution and more importantly, since we have a 300g leeway we can switch some taxmen over to scientists on the last research turn for each tech. Back-up is the name of the game now. We're using three extra prebuilds so a few extra scientists are in order.

Remember we will need the back up prebuild cities to switch to something else the last turn. The 640 backup can go to a wonder, likewise with the 320 backup. The 160 one can switch to a manufactoring plant. I have a feeling if we make it that far one of those pieces will be destroyed as everyone rushes for our continent.

We'll also have the palace available for a pre-build once we return to a regular economy.

If I'm reading your chart correctly we need to switch to wonders on 262 Arboretum and Aerie. I think thats going to be the red flag to everyone.

The Aerie would have to switch on turn 261 since it's largest pre-build is an airport. The Arboretum and The Igloo have only armor for pre-builds so they can only go one turn before using a wonder. (Well, one of these three can use Battlefield Medicine.)

Ok, I think we can adjust those four cities to keep them from building the battleships and still make up the needed shields during the regular economy.


The Admiralty starts it's pre-build one turn later without reducing it's mobilization shield output. Two turns at 72 spt (plus turn 266 works same tiles for 50 spt) then in the regular economy beginning on turn 267 it will have to take some tiles form The Chamber to get up to 60 spt.
The Pier runs at 25 spt (with +2 food/turn) during mobilization, plus has to lose at least 1s before turn 266. Then it swaps over to all 4 mountain tiles (and a food shortage) during the regular economy. It may have to work a couple less mountains on the last turn to avoid starving.
The Meeting Room does bg to tax man for one turn (#261), then does the airfield tile swap with The Arboretum as planned, and on the last two turns needs another bg from The Arboretum (which gets the dyes tile from The Institute).
The Red Tape almost made me throw in the towel but it did shed some light on the whole process. It should start its pre-build a turn later. Three turns at 28spt and 3 more at 30spt during mobilization (by changing tax man to a cop). Then during the regular economy it does 24spt - which leaves it two short!!! All the tiles it is working already make 2spt or more and all the good tiles are taken by The Meeting Room and Arboretum!!! :aargh: Then I realized that on the very last turn we won't be researching so we can raise the lux slider. Nice insurance, allowing us to put clowns and tax men to work making back up shields. Trouble is, The Red Tape is so corrupt that putting the cop to work makes less shields! :gripe: Then I realized I was so focused on this (to me unnatural) MMing that I forgot we can alter tiles. Mining a couple irrigated tiles should get The Red Tape where it needs to be. :twitch:


Now, the big question: How, exactly, does dropping from mobilization affect the shields that go into the bin? I've assumed it works like this:

On turn 266 we ask Whomp to send peace with accept.
We open our turn 267 save and the first thing we see is BABE's peace offer (with accept). We accept and immediately go back to normal economy and so there are no more shield bonuses.


If I am wrong and the shield bonuses still get added on turn 267 (the turn we accept BABE's peace) then we''l have 4 new battleships and 4 less pre-builds and that would be bad.:badcomp:

IIRC diplomatic actions are set before production phase so the end of mobilization should take place before shields are calculated. :hmm:

But I'd be glad if anybody could test / know for sure.

Here's a summary of my latest attemp at a pre-build scheme:City Item Shields preb. lost wealth
The Aerie Extra 640 1000 600
The Arboretum Engine 640 1000 552
The Igloo casing 640 800 572
The Treasury Extra 500 500 504
The Gulag Apollo 500 500 500
The Admiralty Extra 320 200 350
The Institute Cockpit 320 200 360
The Silo Life s. 320 200 378
The Pier Stasis 320 200 260
The Meetng. Rm. Thrust. 320 200 298
The Shallows Extra 160 200 0
The Marina D. bay 160 160 0
Chamsuri's Cove Fuel 160 160 0
The New Yard lounge 160 160 0
The Nursery S/sup. 160 160 0

Total lost 4374
deficit 924

It differs from the original mainly by the addition of an extra pre-build (for Apollo). It needs very little tile shifting and has some nice overages in case of pollution. :) A few problems exist though. A small one is a few cities need to cut back on war time production to avoid building the battleships. Trouble is that some of the overages equal what needs to be lost making things tight. The big problems are we're 924g short so we might want to lose some of the insurance pre-builds. (There are four.) Also, tomasjj asked about shaving a turn off superconductor. It's possible but we'd need a few more scientists - in addition to turning all our taxmen into scientists for 5 turns. That's another 300g bringing the deficit to about 1200g. It also puts a strain on some of the pre-builds since there is one less turn.

I need a break from this but I'll try to come up with something getting us superconductor in 5 turns with maybe only one or two insurance pre-builds and see if that works.

The pre-builds:Pre-b Mob sh tot sh turn Target over City
800 400 650 265 640 10 The Aerie
1000 454 684 264 640 44 The Arboretum
500 440 660 264 640 20 The Igloo
0 500 270 500 0 The Gulag
160 122 542 269 500 42 The Treasury
200 0 372 269 320 52 The Admiralty
0 320 272 320 0 The Chamber
0 360 270 320 40 The Institute
200 204 324 265 320 4 The Meeting Room
0 324 270 320 4 The Silo
200 107 162 264 160 2 Chamsuri's Cove
200 160 190 264 160 30 The Marina
200 202 242 264 160 82 The New Yard
200 176 216 264 160 56 The Nursery
200 172 192 264 160 32 The ShallowsMM stuff:Turn 264:
The Phoenix gives two tiles to The Arboretum which uses two cops to work them.
Chamsuri's Cove - forest to lake. The Igloo - lake to forest.
Turn 265:
The Shallows - mbg to coast. The Marina - mbg to sea (with cop and tax man). The Aerie takes the two mbgs.
Turn 270:
The Gulag gets the tile from The Admiralty which gets a tile from The Chamber.
Turn 272:
The Chamber gets a tile from The Treasury which then works a free mountain.
Chamsuri's Cove - forest to lake. The Igloo - lake to forest.Other notes:

The Meeting Room has to lose 5 shields during mobilization and all must me made up after demobilizing.
The New Yard must lose at least 3 shields during mobilization. They do not have to be recovered.
The Gulag, The Chamber, Chamsuris' Cove, The Meeting Room and The Silo all have overages of 4 shields or less. Mine some irrigated fields for insurance.
Might be able to build a manufacturing plant in The Chamber on turns 270 - 273 and still build a 320s part. :dunno: Would cost about 120g in lost wealth.
Pre-build notes:
During mobilization:

UN in The Arboretum.
Manhattan in The Aerie.
Battlefield Medicine in The Igloo.
Airport in The Treasury.
All others use battleships.

After Mobilization:

Palace in The Igloo.
Apollo in The Gulag.
Battlefield Medicine in The Treasury.
All others can use manufacturing plants.
Research:
Space flight on turn 265.
Superconductor on turn 270. 5 turns @ 90% science with 18 scientists per turn. About 50 :science: insurance.
Satellites on turn 275. 4 turns @ 90% science and 1 at 40% with 3 scientists per turn for insurance.

Summary:
Turn 265: Learn space flight
Turn 270: Learn superconductor. Make peace with Babe and demobilize.
Turn 271: First turn without mobilization shield bonus.
Turn 275: Learn satellites. Build Apollo.
Turn 276: Launch.

Someone else will have to figure out which turn the invasion begins. :gripe:

EDIT: I forgot to say something about our treasury! If my figures are correct then the lowest our treasury will reach is 632g on turn 275 (the turn we learn our last tech and build Apollo). For the last turn we can turn research off. The plan also has all four extra pre-builds (one for each size category).

Superconductor on turn 270, then Satellites in 4 turns should mean turn 274 no?

Superconductor on turn 270, then Satellites in 4 turns should mean turn 274 no?

We can't do satellites in 4 turns. At 90% science (the max we can do since we need the 10% lux) we generate 1757 :science: (not counting scientists). For 4 turns that's 7028 :science: Satellites is 7800 :science: so we need the fifth turn at 40% giving us a total of 7803 :science: We run 3 scientists each turn as insurance against pollution. 5 turns at 90% is 8785 :science:. This is only 235 :science: short of the 9000 for superconductor. 235/5=47 and 47/3=15.6 so by running 16 scientists for those 5 turns we top 9000 :science: We change a couple more cops to scientists for pollution insurance and we also get superconductor in 5 turns.

:dance: I don't have to change the plan. (Until the orange and light blue transports or stealth bombers show up.)

Sounds good that, I was just responding to what you wrote in the "Research" spoiler. :)

Sounds good that, I was just responding to what you wrote in the "Research" spoiler. :)

You mean where I said 4 turns @90% and 1 turn @40%? :mischief:

Oh, right... :blush:

Great work, Donsig. :hatsoff:

I'd love to have the pleasure of double-checking all of your work, but I can't... it will have to await someone more skilled (and in possession of C3C ;))

Donsig, in this thread, in September of 2008:
If this time line is correct we'll be able to launch on turn 259. We'd have to demobilize on turn 256.
:lol: :cry: :lol:

My, how things change! All our early dreams! We were so young! So Idealistic!
:D