According to the BtS info centre, it says that the Ziggurat reduces maintenance costs by 50% and allows one citizen to be a spy, the same benefits a courthouse give. So does the Ziggurat not give any additional benefits as a UB?

It is available at Priesthood.

You only need Priesthood to build it. The same tech required for the oracle


Gah, beat by a minute

May I add that it only needs 90:hammers: instead of the usual 120 to build it.

The Ziggurat, combined with the Rauthas, is possibly one of the closest to broken buildings in the game.

I'd put the Ikhanda really high too, as well as give honorable mention to the Ottoman UB (hell, the UU is good too, they're a strong civ).

I disagree with the Ziggurat being broken. Though it is available earlier and cheaper, you still have to slog through the religious tech tree (or trade for it or steal it) without having mysticism as a starting tech, so you can't even benefit from a founding a religion. :/

I disagree with the Ziggurat being broken. Though it is available earlier and cheaper, you still have to slog through the religious tech tree (or trade for it or steal it) without having mysticism as a starting tech, so you can't even benefit from a founding a religion. :/

Slog? Mysticism, meditation, and priesthood are some of the cheapest techs around, not to mention pre-reqs for monarchy (which you're likely to need if you can't get or don't want pyramids). If you get a religion spread to you, you can still use priesthood for the temples too, and after libraries monasteries have the best hammer-to-multiplier ratio even BEFORE "per religious building" perks come around.

They're very, very easy techs to pick up, even when prepping for war. You might even be able to oracle something like math, construction, monarchy, or MC trade bait depending on what you need/etc with less worry about expansion costs.

Sumeria is one of the best civs in the game and if they had a stronger leader they'd be close to overpowered. Imagine IMP/ORG or AGG/ORG. Combat I vultures and 45 hammer courthouses :lol:.

yeah ... once ran into Hammubari of Sumeria in a game ... and that wasn't pretty :P

Ok, thanks. I thought it was a mistake and I just mentioned it here incase someone wanted to correct it. Guess the mistake turned around on me...

I disagree with the Ziggurat being broken.

I never said it was broken. There aren't any broken buildings in the game. If you wanted to make a list of the cheapest buildings, the Ziggurat would be very close to the top.

Ziggurats are great, just because they're cheap and early available. Slog? Well it's better to go for Priesthood that to go for Code of Laws, which takes MUCH longer.

Only sad point is that it doesn't add up with Gil's traits or add specific boni that are cumulative to the Civ's UU/leaders (like the Zulu's Ikhanda)

Still imagine Darius as a Sumerian Leader... <*shudders*>

How is Ziggurat broke? Are you daft? It is a great building. Summeria is not an Organized civ, it is fine. If you pair it with an Organized using unrestricted, yes you get a powerful combo indeed. But that's the nature of Unrestricted.

I personally love Ziggurats, but hardly build them in ancient teamers, which is majority of League play we do online. There are simply more important things to spend the hammers on, and you almost never go past 5 cities, so the reduction in maintenance is not worth it. But it is great for SP campaigns. One of other nice combos would be summeria with organized and philosophical! Get early great spy. I know its a bit gimmicky, but it can be fun to spy on your enemies before Alphabet.

There are simply more important things to spend the hammers on, and you almost never go past 5 cities

Are you mad? With raging barbs on, there are always heaps of spare cities to go around - without some sort of serious financial heft they usually have to be razed :( - early courthouses are a godsend.

Question was answered guys... letting people know. :goodjob:

Zig is way discounted as its base cost. 90 vs. 120.

Its exploitable no doubt.

But then again so are Prats, Catas, Conqistadors, Citadels, War Chariots, immortals, Gers+mongolian horses, Tok Gunpowders, pinch panzers, boudica melee hordes, Numidian Horses=> Knight hordes, Prot ChoKo's, landsknecht (more on mp), dog soldiers+ totem pole prot archers, church's redcoats, Liz's economy, vultures, bowman etc...

Julius Caesar of Sumeria. Organized Cheap Ziggurats, Praets, quick GG and settlers... wow. If anything would break the ziggurat, it's an IMP/ORG strong military civ.

Blitz, you can't get praets and zig for that combo.

You're right. I realized that while I was driving home! LoL. I'm like "I'm gonna try that crazy combo! And then I said... oops... :lol: no Praets with that combo"

Question was answered guys... letting people know. :goodjob:

:rotfl: As you've probably noticed, you can't ask a simple question around here without starting a rabid discussion....best leave them to it ;)

You're right. I realized that while I was driving home! LoL. I'm like "I'm gonna try that crazy combo! And then I said... oops... :lol: no Praets with that combo"

Vultures aren't too bad though!

Sumeria is a great civ somewhat balanced by a weak leader. I'm experimenting with early game choking/settlement directing tactics on immortal though, which may give protective an edge in my book as doing something like that would greatly benefit from archers/walls being stronger/easier to attain (although PRO would still probably be the weakest trait in my eyes, actual uses for it are always welcome). The idea at the moment is a super early DoW (with hopefully a worker steal) followed up by sitting your unit on defensive terrain in the direction you don't want the AI to expand into. I'm sure it would work a treat below emperor because you can then settle aggressively to just take peace, but on immortal they don't like taking peace nicely so archers/walls would keep cities settled in otherwise enemy territory more viable.

Actually, I think everything comes together in Sumeria - nothing truly powerful, but a combination of little advantages that make them very forgiving to play and thus very strong for high-level play.

A better axe rush, arguably the best trait setup for squeezing neighbours in (Cathy can do so more quickly but has trouble defending if this leads to an early war), an almost free oracle for MC (all prerequisite techs are among the most vital for the economy as priesthood unlocks your courthouse) so you can keep up with trades...

I think it's one of the better choices if you need an edge to win at all, just not very good for winning big if you've already mastered the level you play at.

:rotfl: As you've probably noticed, you can't ask a simple question around here without starting a rabid discussion....best leave them to it ;)

I've noticed... :D

I've been playing with Sumeria lately. To me they seem like an awesome civ for an espionage economy.

One key point about the EE is the need for the Great Wall. Now Sumeria isn’t industrious nor does it start with mining – however that aside, Sumeria should be heading first towards BW to open up its UU. Opening up BW also means the ability to chop the Great Wall which is pretty common anyway – if stone happens to be near by, so much the better.

Where the EE starts to shine early for Sumeria is that they can in earnest start earlier than any other Civ @ Priesthood. Getting to Priesthood is only 190 Bulbs, compared to the 740 for CoL. AND – when we get Priesthood, and chop/build Zigs, its only 90 hammers compared to 120. – That equals rabid espionage points well before anyone else in the game. – (Also early Zigs (courthouses) gives us the opportunity to build the FP to further reduce costs)

Alphabet is next* – but with Sumeria’s starting techs of Ag and Wheel, you can get to Pottery, and Writing early on. With Ag and Wheel set to research Pottery early, that compliments whipping and getting early cottages in.

*Understanding we may pick up some worker techs or fishing.

I see several comments about the UU not being that good (not necessarily in this thread). I don't understand why. For an Axe Era type rush - they are the best. Period. You get the strength of swordsmen, CR promotions, and an inherent ability against melee. We start with wheel, so hooking up copper won’t require any research.

As far as Sumeria traits;

Creative = Much easier to expand into copper if needs be. No need for monuments early on. Able to use border pops to control your land mass.

Protective = The obvious = bringing along heavily promoted archers from creation makes it easy to hold any city you wish to keep. The less obvious = Half price walls and CASTLES which give you more espionage bonus. And when your building walls and castles, your cities with it’s heavily promoted Archers are that much stronger.

I think laying the foundation early with a solid Vulture Rush and securing the GW puts you on the road to a strong strong Espionage game where you can pick multiple roads to victory.

Sarge:gp:

One powerful benefit of getting ziggarauts without Code of Laws is it frees up your Oracle choice of a free tech. You can still expand aggressively and delay CoL.

Last game I picked metal casting from Oracle, whipped a forge at my coastal capital, ran an engineer while building the Colossus. By the time that was built I had a GE which built the Pyramids at my second city :crazyeye:
Got that build sequence idea off an ALC game.

Ziggurats are pretty strong.. Sumeria is the only civ where I normally bother researching down the religious path. 90h courthouses at Priesthood as opposed to Code of Laws is pretty good. Still though, they do come earlier than normal courthouses, but your maintenance is not high that early in the game and is rarely a problem before like 500BC and you can get courthouses by then and avoid researching useless religious techs (maybe if you really need Monarchy...). On top of that, production is low early on so even 90h is a lot unless you whip. IMO, Rathaus beats it by a long shot - you can really feel -75% maintenance as opposed to -50%.

Vultures are awesome on paper, but copper is not a resource you get every game so that reduces their power a bit although they are still amazing. In my recent game as Gilga, I had no copper... so much for vultures.

Iron works for Vults as well. If you've got the ability, trading something for IWing may give you your vultures easily, as they've got Swordsman Strength, they can hold their own in that era as well as in the Axeman days.