I know im probably violating every forum rule here by not searching before posting. But i have a simple question.

This is my 2nd time im playing Civ4 BTS, my early attempts were always play in peace mode, i get almost every aspect of the game except the combat system.

Can someone explain to me how a city cannot be won if you attack it in 1 turn with 15 axeman, 10 chariots, 7 swordsman and 5 crosbowman, while my enemy has only 3 axeman to defend it. And also im technologically superior and attacking from a hill and the city is on a plain with no additional defense bonus, no wall.

I just dont get it! Creators of this game shouldve considered simple math.
It does not make any sence whatsoever if you have 37 units attacking one tile and only 3 defenders, and NO those 3 are not Terminators or Aliens or Predators, and they do not have 100mm cannons or Fhazors or Photon Torpedos attached to the city walls.

I love every other aspect of the game, but combat shouldve been more like any other game, like Heroes of Might and Magic for instance.

I hope Civ5 will improve on that.

Title changed. Watch the language...

That is somewhat - unlikely. While theoretically possible it is way outside anything I've seen in my games. Can you post a screenshot?

Small point - attacking from a hill is completely irrelevant. Only the terrain the defender is on matters.

YOU NEED TO BRING Siege units.


Siege units bombard defenses and cause collateral damage when attacking

Siege, do you use it?

Language - warned.

Siege, do you use it?

Hey, Don't be hard on him. Civ IV is a very complex game. It took me a long time to figure out why my units were dying.

Wow no defense? Unless the city has 100% culture defense (80% culture 20% from wodner?) This is 100% impossible, and you are a really cool guy.

Once i was attacking a size one city with 60 chariots against one elephant and i lost and it's not fair and the dog ate my screenshot.

It's time for you to meet your two best friends: Catapults and trebuchets.

Reload back to your war preparations, and this bring in six to eight seige units with your stack. Catapults are fine, though trebuchets are better if you can build them. Then march your stack over to those three axemen. Have the seige bombard the city (red target button) until the cultural defenses are down to zero, or close enough. This depletes faster with more advanced units, and city walls/castles slow the process down. Then have two or three city raider seige suicide into the city, even if the first few die they'll cause collatural damage, hurting everyone the stack. Then the rest of your army can easily mop up the city, heal for a few turns (bring a medic) and quickly move on to the next.

(Note that seige units cannot actually kill units in Beyond the Sword, only heavily damage and retreat. So you still need to bring regular units to finish the job. But you can't wage war without them, and they'll make it much easier.)

GOD, STOP BEING HARD ON HIM


Seriously. He's just a newbie, there's no need to call him stupid.

sorry. i was just playing!

Can someone explain to me how a city cannot be won if you attack it in 1 turn with 15 axeman, 10 chariots, 7 swordsman and 5 crosbowman, while my enemy has only 3 axeman to defend it. And also im technologically superior and attacking from a hill and the city is on a plain with no additional defense bonus, no wall.

Because you didn't use any siege weapons to reduce that city's cultural defences or weaken the defenders?

Creators of this game shouldve considered simple math. It does not make any sence whatsoever if you have 37 units attacking one tile and only 3 defenders, and NO those 3 are not Terminators or Aliens or Predators, and they do not have 100mm cannons or Fhazors or Photon Torpedos attached to the city walls.

Players of the game should learn how things work before they go to a forum and complain that it's broken.

You can also use a spy to send the city into revolt which will reduce the tile defense (excluding hill bonus) to 0% for ONE turn only (but you should only need one :) )

He's telling a lie...
Chariots eat Axemen in bts remember?

It's true that the odds of this are ridiculously low - I suspect extreme exaggeration. OK the axes would have a decent shot against the swords, but the chariots and crossbows are direct counters to them, and the chariots on their own would have a decent shot at winning. That's to say nothing of 15 axes which should have no trouble at all of beating 3 axes on their own as well.

Even if it is a complete exaggeration, you are lying through your teeth.

Give us a save (An auto-save will do nicely), and that will be fine.

Lets give you the benifit of the doubt, and give the defender a MASSIVE boost, by giving them all bonuses that you haven't explicitally mentioned.

Lets give the Axes ALL promotions possible.

Lets give you no promotions.

Now... lets take the Chariots.
4 strength vs. 5
Defender gets +50% for combat V, +25% for formation, +25% for fortification
Defender loses -100% for Chariot attacking Axeman.
Ultimatly, Defender unchanged
Thus, the Chariots alone are 4 strength, vs 5. So, 7 chariots ALONE should kill the axes (maybe 10 tops... if the AI is lucky)

What about XBows?

6 strength vs. 5
Defender gets +50% for Combat V, +25% for cover, +25% for fortification
Defender loses -50% for Crossbow bonus vs. Melee
Ultimately, Defender gets +50%
Thats 6 strength, vs. 7.5. Another simalerly odds combat, this time with a first strike. Again, 7 XBows alone would kill the Axes, 10 tops.

Axemen?

5 strength vs. 5
Defender gets +50% for Combat C, +25% for shock, +25% for fortification, +50% for Axes vs. melee
Defender loses -50% for Axes vs. Melee
Ultimately, Defender gets +100%
5 strength vs. 10. About 10 units should kill 3... 15 tops.

Swords are just as bad!
6 Strength vs. 5
Defender gets +50% for Combat C, +25% for shock, +25% for fortification, +50% for Axes vs. melee
Defender loses -10% for Swords vs. City
Ultimately, the defender gains +140%, making it 6 strength vs. 12. Again, 10 units should kill 3, 15 tops.

Thus, it is safe to say, even if each of the 3 Axes had Combat 5, Shock, Cover AND Formation, for 8 promotions total, for 65 Experiance (50 with Aggressive, 49 with Charasmatic, and 38 with Charasmatic AND Aggressive), and you only sent 1 type of unit in the numbers you mentioned You still would have almost certainly won!

the odds of someone losing that battle are probably less than one in a billion. If I had to give a rough guess I'd say one in a trillion.

It's not impossible, but it is about as close to impossible as you can get.

Once i was attacking a size one city with 60 chariots against one elephant and i lost and it's not fair and the dog ate my screenshot.

I lul'd :lol:

Thanks for the info, once i pwned a city with catapults, 80% number came quickly down. and was able to take it preety easily. Though in this instance i already had Knights.

while my enemy has only 3 axeman to defend it.

Sorry it seems you stumbled upon the 300 spartans :lol:

The stack in the OP could be split in two. Pair each stack with cats and take his cities down two at a time.

Thanks for the info, once i pwned a city with catapults, 80% number came quickly down. and was able to take it preety easily. Though in this instance i already had Knights.

That's called cultural defense.

Ah, you said that there was no cultural defence... 80% cultural defence is quite significiant. That could possibly turn the tide in the AI's favor... significantly decreasing the odds vs. XBows and Chariots (but not so much Swords or Axes)

ALso, even though catapults (and siege in general) is relatively weak, if you promote them to City Raider, then you can attack with them (suicide cats / trebs / cannons), and thier collateral damage will mean that you take LESS losses than if you DIDN'T attack (in most circumstances)

Ideally, 50%-75% of your stack should be seige units, and that will allow your stack to be MUCH smaller (I normally go 6-8 regular units, and around 10-15 siege units, it works for me, against ANY opponent)

Human cities have always been vulnerable to seige, we just have'nt really found a way to totally negate the use of them.

....unless we lived underground like Hobbits.

....but even then man would find a way to use seige underground too! Man is very ingenious in inventing ways to kill each other.

Does he ever state that he attacked with all these units the very same turn?

Interesting comment ref living underground. Incidentally, Kiwi, you're from new zealand, what are hobbits REALLY like?

Interesting comment ref living underground. Incidentally, Kiwi, you're from new zealand, what are hobbits REALLY like?

They're hard to catch, their hairy feet stink when you singe them, yet they taste like chicken!

He did say he attacked all at once...

Can someone explain to me how a city cannot be won if you attack it in 1 turn with 15 axeman, 10 chariots, 7 swordsman and 5 crosbowman, while my enemy has only 3 axeman to defend it

The original poster is a lousy liar. If you're going to make up stuff about the combat system, then at least make is plausible.

I'd ask for a save-game file to prove it, but I know that's a waste of time. I'm sure he'll say he doesn't have one, or he overwrote it, or his computer spontaneously combusted...

Human cities have always been vulnerable to seige, we just have'nt really found a way to totally negate the use of them.

....unless we lived underground like Hobbits.

....but even then man would find a way to use seige underground too! Man is very ingenious in inventing ways to kill each other.

We wouldn't need siege engines, we'd just drown them out, or pour liquid Greek Fire down their hole.

Despite the probability of exaggeration, the conceptual thrust of the OP is well-taken. The concept being that the defenders possess all of the advantages in combat. The defenders receive extra bonuses from culture and fortifications and additionally can select the best defender against each declared attacking unit. The method to overcome these bonuses requires extensive use of siege units; which, incidentally, mirrors actual history.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and think perhaps the OP has made the same mistake I did for (embarassingly) my first week or so of Civ.

You did attack with all of your units right?

When I first played I assumed that by selecting all my units and giving an attack order sent all my units to attack. It doesn't. Your troops only attack one at a time and you need to order each one to attack if you want to do more damage. Each attack turn can only result in 1 dead unit, yours or his.

;7196465']GOD, STOP BEING HARD ON HIM


Seriously. He's just a newbie, there's no need to call him stupid.

At the same time, how much do you buy of this "15 axes losing to 3 axes" nonsense? The odds of that are even smaller than the time a barb warrior killed my archer while attacking across a river. And get this, he claims he sent EVEN MORE UNITS THAN THAT! He's claiming he sent THIRTY SEVEN units at these 3 god-axes, and 5 of them (the xbows) should have had favorable odds if they attacked first even with the axes at full health!

He might as well have claimed that his civ cd spontaneously combusted. Similar probabilities as 3 axes with 0 first strikes fending off 20+ units, 40% culture D or not.

Siege is incredibly useful in this game, but I did just win a domination game on emperor without building a single siege unit (or spy!). Not that this is typical of my play, but still.

I'm not going to call the OP names, but I do have to call BS.

Whether the OP is exaggerating or not, or just making it up, this is a still a good thread for beginners to understand the concept of combat and defense. I would also like to add the possibility of the attack being across a river. I was going to say "or from ships", but he did say the attack was from a hill.

I don't know all the aspects of combat myself. I am just a Noble player who has no strategies and has fun. But when it comes to combat, I know what percentages mean, and I look at those. Don't get me wrong, I know enough that I know what beats what and want cover against archers, etc. But I will let the game tell me the odds and go from there. That might be as good as advice as any for beginners. With the usual caveat, just because you have a 99% chance to win, doesn't mean you won't lose! Even twice in a row!

Hey guys,

I'm wondering if Se3ker attacked with injured or otherwise damaged units. Being one of his first wars he may not have realized that an injured unit's strength is directly influenced by the unit's remaining life. I'd wager that those ten 1 strength Chairots wouldn't do very well vs those few axemen, and the axemen would have chewed up the rest of the army, even more-so if the other attackers were also injured.

Hey guys,

I'm wondering if Se3ker attacked with injured or otherwise damaged units. Being one of his first wars he may not have realized that an injured unit's strength is directly influenced by the unit's remaining life. I'd wager that those ten 1 strength Chairots wouldn't do very well vs those few axemen, and the axemen would have chewed up the rest of the army, even more-so if the other attackers were also injured.

37 injured units moving around? Even injured, they'd have to be hurt BADLY. An xbow would be favored even at 5str instead of 6 unless the culture d was significant.

It just isn't plausible. He's lying bigtime. I can't even give him the benefit of the doubt when he's claiming 3 axes hold off double digit counter units.

If he seriously managed to get than #, it's likely he has some grasp of the game aka not attacking with massively wounded units. If he's doing that, he should refer to the manual and common sense. Seriously, would you have made such a mistake even on day 1?

I'd rather give him the benefit of the doubt and call him a liar, because that's by far the most likely thing going on here.

37 injured units moving around? Even injured, they'd have to be hurt BADLY. An xbow would be favored even at 5str instead of 6 unless the culture d was significant.

TheMeInTeam,

He said that there was 80% culture. Also, when he mentioned that he came back with knights. This means that the game was pushing into the Classical Era at the time of his post and that most every civ should've had catapults. I'm going out on a limb here, but I bet that his stack was attacked by a few catapults prior to his assault on possibly upgraded axemen defending a city with 80% cultural defensese.

Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. ;)

@TheMeInTeam: I don't like people calling other people liars. Especially when there is no evidence to back it up.

So to help you, here is the evidence:

Refer to the info given:

3 Axes (promotions unknown) defending in a 80% cultural defence city, no hills. Fortified for 5 turns or more.

37 units (15 axeman, 10 chariots, 7 swordsman and 5 crosbowman, promotions unknown)

Difficulty unknown.

By giving him the benifit of the doubt, here is a simulation. I will give the Axes all (possible) non-GG promotions. I will give the AI Chicken Itza, in order to allow the +25% defence from 'fortification'. I will give the attackers NO PROMOTIONS AT ALL. I will rename the defending city "Sparta", so that any hidden, hard-coded Civ IV "THIS IS SPARTAAAAAA!!" bonuses apply. I will play at Diety level (yeah right), for the AI combat bonuses.

Here is the screeny of that set up.
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/8818/civ4screenshot0460lp6.th.jpg (http://img84.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot0460lp6.jpg)
http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/3435/civ4screenshot0462uz6.th.jpg (http://img363.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot0462uz6.jpg)

Right... what order do we do this in. Considering that this person PROBABLY decided to select all units, and then attacked, we will do the same (going for the 'best' odds each time)

Here is the summary of each attack:

Round 1: Sword. Damages an Axe 0.6 strength
Round 2: Sword. Does no damage
Round 3: Sword. Damages an Axe 0.6 strength
Round 4: Sword. Does no damage
Round 5: Sword. Does no damage
Round 6: Sword. Does 0.6 strength damage to an Axe
Round 7: Sword. Does 1.2 strength damage

By now I have lost all my swords. Not particulally surprising that...

Round 8: Chariot. Does no damage
Round 9: Chariot. Does 0.6 damage, and then withdrawls from combat
Round 10: Chariot. Does no damage
Round 11: Chariot. Does 0.6 damage
Round 12: Chariot. Does no damage

By now, the odds of success are 3%. At this rate, I would win at least against 1 axe, even if I do no damage at all!!

Round 13: Chariot. This chariot finally gets a good hit in (or rather, due to the Axes strength now down to about 4, his two first strikes are less powerful now), and does 2.9 damage!

Round 14: Chariot. Does 3.5 damage

Now it is the end. I have 31% odds to win!

Round 15: Chariot. Does 2.1 damage, has 31% odds, and withdrawls

Round 16: Crossbow. 98% odds, kills an axe.

Round 17: Chariot. 97.4 odds. Kills an axe

Round 18: Chariot. >99% odds. Kills an axe, Sparta is razed to the ground.

There you have it. It CANNOT be done, no ifs, buts, or maybes...

These units have no less than 11 effective promotions (Combat I-V, Woodsman I-III, Cover, Formation, and Shock), requiring 122 experiance (101 with Aggressive, 92 with Charasmatic, 76 with Agg/Cha (IE. Tokogawa) ), and had every other bonus nailed... And they still got slaughtered with just 18 of the 37 available units... not even half the units were used!!

I call your bluff... or at least obscene exagguration! (I say while I am busy feeding the trolls)

But it does have plenty of info for new players... even if just to show that a series of godly units like those axes can be taken out with enough counter-units!

Oh, and I have plenty of time. Uni holidays, for another week, and nothing to do :(

Here is the final results...
http://img373.imageshack.us/img373/5632/civ4screenshot0463fl7.th.jpg (http://img373.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot0463fl7.jpg)
http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/3849/civ4screenshot0464qj3.th.jpg (http://img158.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot0464qj3.jpg)

The digits have been crunched! :bowdown:

Owned! :worship: Bow Before the magnificance of digitCruncher :king:

Lol thanks digitcruncher...although in this case the claim was so implausible that the discussion wasn't needed for proof (drill on axes :lol:), although it was entertaining to read. (note: deity AIs don't get combat bonuses, they just get atrocious production bonus and unit maintenance/upgrade cost reductions so that they have A LOT MORE UNITS. For the purposes of your test, difficulty is irrelevant). I know you probably know that, but for newer players: DIFFICULTY DOESN'T AFFECT COMBAT ODDS. Just the #'s and tech that your opponent will tend to have when you attack.

The OP claim would be similar to me claiming I'm tom brady of the new england patriots, time-stamped WHILE he's playing in a game :p.

It's kind of like how trial law has a "decision on the facts".

There was no drill on the axes... only possible promotions were given (I am not 100% sure on Ambush, but it doesn't matter)

The 2 first strikes came from Woodsman III, not Drill...

But there were many people thinking it was plausable, albiet unlikely. It is so unlikely, however, it would never happen within our lifetime...

I will play at Diety level (yeah right), for the AI combat bonuses.
OOHHH NOOOOHHH! digitCruncher, what have you done????
The Mummy Returns!

...and where was the river in your test?
I guess the OP is playing some mystery-mod and the city wasn't defended by 3 Axemen, but 3 X-men...

OOHHH NOOOOHHH! digitCruncher, what have you done????
The Mummy Returns!

...and where was the river in your test?
I guess the OP is playing some mystery-mod and the city wasn't defended by 3 Axemen, but 3 X-men...

Ick. Such mad regeneration from one of them, it would heal back to full mid battle!