I am wondering, how many of these are there? A UU/UB surprise is when the UU/UB in question loses a positive bonus (or gains a negative one), compared to the unit it replaces

I can name 5 UUs / UBs that have this ability, of the top of my head.

Hippodrome: These provide +1 :), and double :) from the culture slider. What it DOESN'T do, however, is provide +1 :) from dye, and allows artist specilists! This was rather annoying in my recent random Byzantine game, where I needed the extra +12 (I captured the Sistene Chapel :D) culture (and +8 science, while I am at it :P)

Cataphract: 12 strength, instead of 10, Knights, putting them on par with Cuirassers. Its almost a good thing that cataphracts lose the immunity to first strikes, making them slightly weaker than knights vs. Drill Longbows.

Dog Soldiers: Although they have +100% vs. melee (instead of just +50% for the case of Axemen), Dog Soldiers only have 4 strength, not 5

Jaguars: An interesting one. A resourceless UU, which starts with Woodsman I. Unfortunatly, they have 5 strength, instead of 6.

Samurai: A maceman that starts with Drill I, gets 2 free first strikes, and can continue up the drill line too!! Only problem: It requires Iron (where regular maces can run on copper, OR Iron)

Question: How many other UU's UB's are like this: (IE. they are situationaly weaker than their replacement, but, of course, in the vast majority of cases, they are stronger?)

And I am not complaining, it just came as a surprise... the Byzantines are obviously notorious for UU/UB surprises. And I wouldn't like to have another of these surprises thankyou :P

Comprehensive List of all Suprising units
Note: Only negative abilities are mentioned here. There are normally positive effects that outwiegh these.

Hippodrome (Byzantine): No bonus from dye, No artist specilists
Ikhanda (Zulu): Increased Price (Thanks TheMeInTeam)
Cothon (Carthage): Increased Price (Thanks qwertz)

Cataphract (Byzantine): No immunity from first strikes
Samurai (Japan): Requires Iron (Instead of Copper OR Iron)
Jaguar (Aztec): Decreased Strength
Dog Soldier (Native America): Decreased Strength
Thanks TheMeInTeam for the following 3 units:
Keshik (Mongolia): No immunity to first strikes
Numidian Calvalry (Carthage): Decreased Strength
Vulture (Babylon): Decreased bonus vs. Melee (25% instead of 50%). However, this doesn't translate into a decreased power vs. Melee (7.5 strength vs. 8 strength), so this is a controversial surprise...
Ballista Elephant (India): Occasionally, you might want a Elephant to kill a non-mounted unit, which the regular War Elephant would, but the Ballista Elephant wouldn't. (Thanks KillMePlease)
Pretorian (Rome): Costs more (Thanks qwertz), and loses a 10% city attack(thanks LegionSteve)

You mistakenly said the hippodrome is part of carthage (I think?).

Some other UUs that fit your description that I can think of offhand:

Keshiks
Numidians
Vultures

UBs:
Ikhanda is the only other one I can think of offhand.

ballista elephant (Khmer)
holkan (Maya)

ballista elephant (Khmer)
holkan (Maya)
can you explain how can they be worse than original units


praetorians
ikhandas
the carthagean UB
all cost more :hammers: than the original units


one can also argue that the ziggarut can be worse than a courthouse as you could have CoL without priesthood.

can you explain how can they be worse than original units


Imagine you have BE and spearman. You have to attack axeman and charriot.

Holkan recieve only +50% vs mounted instead of 100%

I did, sorry. I will clean that up :P

Also, wow... thats alot!!

Question: Whats the weakness of Ballista Elephant... They are exactly the same as War Elephants, but with 'targets mounted' ability...

Also, Holkans have +100% vs. Mounted... not +50%... I think you misunderstand my question.

Simaler question about Keshiks (I can't find the weakness of them), and

I am not asking what units are WEAK UU's... I am asking what units have a negative ability the regular unit doesn't have, or doesn't have a positive ability the regular units have... Prets fall into this 'surprising' class of UUs (higher build cost... although its only 10% :P), but you would have to be mad to say that it falls into the 'weak' class of UUs...

Hippodromes replace the +1 happiness from dyes with +1 from horses which are a lot easier to obtain most games so thats a strength IMO.

UUs aren't meant to be super heroes and UBs aren't meant to be magic items. It's a question of balance.

The point is how to use the UU/UBs in the best way - taking into account both the strong and the weak sides. In fact, that's the over all point with this strategy game.

Question: Whats the weakness of Ballista Elephant... They are exactly the same as War Elephants, but with 'targets mounted' ability...

BE will always attack mounted units. ie if there are axeman and charriot in enemy stack, and you have BE and spearman in your stack, you can not win - BE kills charriot, axeman kills spearman. If you have an ordinary Elephant, it kills axeman and then spearman kills charriot.

Also, Holkans have +100% vs. Mounted... not +50%...
uh maybe it was changed in 3.13 or 3.17
it definitely was only 50% in 3.03

@ digitcruncher:

Keshiks don't get the first strike immunity of regular horse archers. Imagine what would happen if you got attacked by very early Cho-Ko-Nus after an Oracle/MC/Machinery slingshot...

Ok, this would be very hard for anyone to beat back, but downright impossible for Mongolia.

BE will always attack mounted units. ie if there are axeman and charriot in enemy stack, and you have BE and spearman in your stack, you can not to win - BE kills charriot, axeman kills spearman. If you have an ordinary Elephant, it kills axeman and then spearman kills charriot.

Then you should have a couple of axemen in your stack.

Then you should have a couple of axemen in your stack.

it is only an example of in which case BE can be worse than E.

Ahh.. so the BE effect is occasionally a bad effect (rarely), thats a smart observation!!

@AmazonQueen: Actually, Hippodromes are ALWAYS better (except for the Artist ability), because they get +1 :) always (instead of +1 :) only with dye),and an ADDITIONAL +1 :) with Horses...

However, they still lose the dye and artist ability, in exchange of double cultural happyness, extra happyness, and extra horse happyness... obviously a better deal, but not without sacrificing stuff.

@Kark: I'm not saying that those units SHOULD be god-unit / Magic Items... I did mention I am not complaining, nor am I saying that anything should be changed. However, it is important to know when the building bonuses are removed with a UB (Because, generally, you expect the UU/UB to be the regular Unit/Building, with a few more good things slapped on top... you don't expect to lose a good thing (even if you gain a better thing...))

@Iranon: Thanks for pointing that out... I missed that >.<

it is only an example of in which case BE can be worse than E.

I understood that. I was just trying to use your example to underline my own argument earlier. Used wisely, the UUs/UBs will (almost) always be better than the ordinary unit/building.

And digitCruncher: I agree. Knowledge is power.

Hippodrome: ...
What it DOESN'T do, however, is provide +1 :) from dye, and allows artist specilists! This was rather annoying in my recent random Byzantine game, where I needed the extra +12 (I captured the Sistene Chapel :D) culture (and +8 science, while I am at it :P)


How can you get +8 science from theatre (hippodrome) ?

How can you get +8 science from theatre (hippodrome) ?

With a theatre you can assign 2 artist specialists, which normally give 1 :science: each, but give 4 :science: each if you run Representation.

Hippodrome doesn't let you assign artists.

Simaler question about Keshiks (I can't find the weakness of them)

Horse archers are immune to first strikes. While the keshik has its own first strike, it is NOT first strike immune by default. Fits your description, no?

The worst unique unit is the Navy SEAL..

It comes earlier and had more realistic utility than the panzer. Very seldom do I face AI tanks. I at least have some use for amphibious strikes...on some maps.

Although neither of those late UUs are relevant to the discussion in this thread.

Ugh i hate dog soldiers...

4 :strength: and + 100% against melee gives you 8 :strength: against melee units.

5 :strength: and + 50% against melee gives you 7.5 :strength: against melee.

Wow a 0.5 :strength: increase against melee units! Woo! And that at the cost of losing 1 :strength: against mounted and archer units...

They are simply worse then regular axeman in the average game, great UU!

Edit: Ive heard my ermmm math is way off here... Sooo forget about those carefully researched numbers :lol:

^But they don't require bronze or iron.
The Carthaginian UU (replaces horse archer) has a strength of 5 instead of 6.

I'm gonna edit the first post to describe what units fall into this case, so we don't have endless repeats ;)

Ugh i hate dog soldiers...

4 :strength: and + 100% against melee gives you 8 :strength: against melee units.

5 :strength: and + 50% against melee gives you 7.5 :strength: against melee.

Wow a 0.5 :strength: increase against melee units! Woo! And that at the cost of losing 1 :strength: against mounted and archer units...

They are simply worse then regular axeman in the average game, great UU!

The Dog Soldiers' benefit is that they require NO resources to build. How many times have you researched Bronze Working only to find out that the nearest Copper resource is across the map (or at least far enough away that you can't get to it to build Axemen)? For any other Civ you're stuck with Archers and Chariots (if you're lucky enough to have access to horses) until you research Iron Working and then you can only pray that the nearest iron resource isn't across the map too.

The Dog Soldiers' benefit is that they require NO resources to build. How many times have you researched Bronze Working only to find out that the nearest Copper resource is across the map (or at least far enough away that you can't get to it to build Axemen)? For any other Civ you're stuck with Archers and Chariots (if you're lucky enough to have access to horses) until you research Iron Working and then you can only pray that the nearest iron resource isn't across the map too.

Well not too often to be honest, I usually find some copper near my citys. Its a plus that you wont have to settle near the copper to get the warriors, so I can see that it might be usefull in some cases, but id say they are still somewhat worse overall.

I share the dislike for Dog Soldiers... they lack in both raw power and utility. I made a thread some time ago ranking UUs by 'virtual promotions' required to make them equal to the parent unit and the Dogs ranked as second-lowest: 2.5 combat promotions required to bring them up to par in strength, 2 non-persistent shock promotions, being in theory half a promotion below par.
With another civ I might be willing to accept the trade-off for the added security (Dog Soldiers are very difficult to dislodge before Catapults)... but for a Protective civ having a UB that boosts archers there is little need.

Jaguars, a mixed blessing that looks even worse on paper, have a promotion that sticks and are tactically useful from my experience: the AI isn't very good at taking mobility into account hence Woodsman II allows all sort of cute tricks, and III is awesome anyway. Jaguars also allow a practically unlimited supply of decent healers, with no need of blowing Great Generals on them.

Ugh i hate dog soldiers...

4 :strength: and + 100% against melee gives you 8 :strength: against melee units.

5 :strength: and + 50% against melee gives you 7.5 :strength: against melee.

Wow a 0.5 :strength: increase against melee units! Woo! And that at the cost of losing 1 :strength: against mounted and archer units...

They are simply worse then regular axeman in the average game, great UU!

Except that you're forgetting how bonuses work. . .

Dog Soldier is 6 vs 5 against Axemen, 8 vs 4 against Spears and 8 vs 6 vs. Swords and 6 vs. 8 against Mace, assuming other promos/situations equal.

Axe is 5v5, 7.5v4, 7.5v6 and 5v8, so the Dog is both resourceless and better against every single standard melee unit than the Axe. Especially big is having a pre-Machinery unit that beats Axes without any resources required.

Downer is it's weaker against archers and mounted, which means its much better defensively than offensively. Sitting Bull is a protective leader, so it makes its own kind of sense.

I share the dislike for Dog Soldiers... they lack in both raw power and utility. I made a thread some time ago ranking UUs by 'virtual promotions' required to make them equal to the parent unit and the Dogs ranked as second-lowest: 2.5 combat promotions required to bring them up to par in strength, 2 non-persistent shock promotions, being in theory half a promotion below par.
With another civ I might be willing to accept the trade-off for the added security (Dog Soldiers are very difficult to dislodge before Catapults)... but for a Protective civ having a UB that boosts archers there is little need.

Jaguars, a mixed blessing that looks even worse on paper, have a promotion that sticks and are tactically useful from my experience: the AI isn't very good at taking mobility into account hence Woodsman II allows all sort of cute tricks, and III is awesome anyway. Jaguars also allow a practically unlimited supply of decent healers, with no need of blowing Great Generals on them.

Agreed, if used correctly jaguars can be quite usefull. Its too bad it replaces such a often used unit though, a replacement of a scout would have been much better (lose some of its animal bonus and give it the woodsman promotions).

Which UU did you rank as the lowest? Ballista elephants?

Except that you're forgetting how bonuses work. . .

Dog Soldier is 6 vs 5 against Axemen, 8 vs 4 against Spears and 8 vs 6 vs. Swords and 6 vs. 8 against Mace, assuming other promos/situations equal.

Axe is 5v5, 7.5v4, 7.5v6 and 5v8, so the Dog is both resourceless and better against every single standard melee unit than the Axe. Especially big is having a pre-Machinery unit that beats Axes without any resources required.

Downer is it's weaker against archers and mounted, which means its much better defensively than offensively. Sitting Bull is a protective leader, so it makes its own kind of sense.

How did you calculate those numbers? To me it seems like its:

Dog: 8 vs 7.5 8 vs 4, 8 vs 6, 8 vs 12
Axe: 7.5 vs 7.5 7.5 vs 4, 7.5 vs 6, 7.5 vs 12

And I already said it was better against melee, but only by a small amount while it gets alot worse against archers, chariots, horese archers and catapults (the non-melee units it will fight against the most).

Jaguars: free Woodsman I, but they need 2 Combat promotions to get to strength 6 again... a full promotion behind if you're just counting beans (which I was, without pretensions that it'd alway reflect usefulness in gameplay).

As I said, I still regard them as a useful UU.

Dog Soldiers can be a godsend given the right circumstances. Lets say your a high lvl/huge map/marathon player, and find your random civ is the Nat Ams, and you find you are on a large continent, with a LOT of room to expand. Now if you don't get Horses or Copper near you (very often the case on such maps), with most other civs, you are REALLY struggling for a while.

This is because Barbs appear at 400% the rate of normal on marathon PLUS you get 3 times as many turns early on (which is obviously when they appear in greatest numbers). In fact , as a normal civ, it can be almost pointless building improvements until you can adequately defend them (i.e. Axes or at very least Chariots)...on such a map the barbs will quickly tear down any cottages, farms, and pastures you build, unless you try to counter with an obscene amount of Archers, and doing such will bottom out your economy like a stone...So instead you decide to turtle, and beeline Maths for the Great Wall, and after you've defoliated 2/3rds of your cap, you get a message someone else has built it [pissed]......you've quite possibly already lost given the circumstances...

BUT (at last the point ;)) your the Nat Ams, so none of the above applies. You've just teched BW and are now completely safe from all those Barb Axemen and Spearmen, and you don't need to connect anything to get them! Plus when the barbs play clever so and sos, and stick to the forests refusing to attack your decoy units, it doesn't matter. Just waltz into the forest yourself, and use the Dog Soldiers massive bonus vs melee to crush those Axes and Spears...Ok, they may not be as good as standard axes vs Archers, but then give them cover promotion, and they work just fine.

That's the point, if you are the Nat Ams, expand like a lunatic, grab all the land, and challenge anyone else to take it from you. They are purely and simply the best early and middle game defensive civ bar none. If you want to go on the offensive, then you've picked the wrong civ to play ;)

Dog Soldiers can be a godsend given the right circumstances. Lets say your a high lvl/huge map/marathon player, and find your random civ is the Nat Ams, and you find you are on a large continent, with a LOT of room to expand. Now if you don't get Horses or Copper near you (very often the case on such maps), with most other civs, you are REALLY struggling for a while.

This is because Barbs appear at 400% the rate of normal on marathon PLUS you get 3 times as many turns early on (which is obviously when they appear in greatest numbers). In fact , as a normal civ, it can be almost pointless building improvements until you can adequately defend them (i.e. Axes or at very least Chariots)...on such a map the barbs will quickly tear down any cottages, farms, and pastures you build, unless you try to counter with an obscene amount of Archers, and doing such will bottom out your economy like a stone...So instead you decide to turtle, and beeline Maths for the Great Wall, and after you've defoliated 2/3rds of your cap, you get a message someone else has built it [pissed]......you've quite possibly already lost given the circumstances...

BUT (at last the point ;)) your the Nat Ams, so none of the above applies. You've just teched BW and are now completely safe from all those Barb Axemen and Spearmen, and you don't need to connect anything to get them! Plus when the barbs play clever so and sos, and stick to the forests refusing to attack your decoy units, it doesn't matter. Just waltz into the forest yourself, and use the Dog Soldiers massive bonus vs melee to crush those Axes and Spears...Ok, they may not be as good as standard axes vs Archers, but then give them cover promotion, and they work just fine.

That's the point, if you are the Nat Ams, expand like a lunatic, grab all the land, and challenge anyone else to take it from you. They are purely and simply the best early and middle game defensive civ bar none. If you want to go on the offensive, then you've picked the wrong civ to play ;)


And i guess thats my problem right there :lol:Im always on the offence.

How did you calculate those numbers? To me it seems like its:

Dog: 8 vs 7.5 8 vs 4, 8 vs 6, 8 vs 12
Axe: 7.5 vs 7.5 7.5 vs 4, 7.5 vs 6, 7.5 vs 12

And I already said it was better against melee, but only by a small amount while it gets alot worse against archers, chariots, horese archers and catapults (the non-melee units it will fight against the most).
Attacker bonuses cancel out the same amount of defender bonus, rather than boosting the attacker's strength. For example:

Dog (4/+100%) attacks Axe (5/+50%) --> Dog (4/+50%) v. Axe (5/+0%) --> Dog (6) v. Axe (5)

Axe (5/+50%) attacks Dog (4/+100%) --> Axe (5/+0%) v. Dog (4/+50%) --> Axe (5) v. Dog (6)

The same principle works with Dogs and Macemen, just change the base strength from the Axe's 5 to the Mace's 8.

Similarly:

Axe (5/+50%) v. Axe (5/+50%) --> Axe (5/+0%) v. Axe (5/+0%) --> Axe (5) v. Axe (5)

Obviously in this case it matters not which is attacking. Since Macemen get the same bonus, you need only substitute the base strength on either side, but the result is the same in that the Mace/Axe bonuses cancel one another, leaving both units at base strength.

NB: The combat promotions are the only ones that behave differently, augmenting the attacker rather than reducing the defender's bonus.

Really? I didnt know that.. Well that does make them a bit more usefull.. I guess you could say they are as good as axemen then, still dont like them much though :p

How did you calculate those numbers? To me it seems like its:

Dog: 8 vs 7.5 8 vs 4, 8 vs 6, 8 vs 12
Axe: 7.5 vs 7.5 7.5 vs 4, 7.5 vs 6, 7.5 vs 12

And I already said it was better against melee, but only by a small amount while it gets alot worse against archers, chariots, horese archers and catapults (the non-melee units it will fight against the most).

OTHER THAN COMBAT PROMOS, ALL BONUSES ARE APPLIED TO THE DEFENDER ;).

So it will never be 8 vs 7.5, it actually favors the dog a bit more.

Since it is available very early, you can almost without fail choke with them if someone is near you. They're not great but if you get them going early it is very easy to hit a civ while it has only archers, guaranteeing that you won't see chariots or opposing axes should you rush with them (although you'd hardly cower at enemy axes or spears). So while they kind of suck vs archers, you can do something like pump out 8-10 of them before 2000 BC. Slap some CR on them and see how long 3 archers hold out vs that.

Granted, almost everything about NA is defensive, but they do have this use. They are also much better stack protectors of catapults than axes, so a mix of them and spears (should you find copper or iron) combined with cats will smear things just like axes would. This is great, because you can choke the AI to death and it will likely have around 8 archers in the capitol.

They are the third fastest UU in the game behind the quecha, only with the holkan being faster (I THINK starts with mining/hunting, if I'm mistaken they're tied).

If nothing else, they smear barbs. I'd take them over many other UUs, honestly.

OTHER THAN COMBAT PROMOS, ALL BONUSES ARE APPLIED TO THE DEFENDER ;).

So it will never be 8 vs 7.5, it actually favors the dog a bit more.

Sorry I have no clue what you just said :sad: Are you trying to say the same as the other guy or did i miss 2 things?


They are the third fastest UU in the game behind the quecha, only with the holkan being faster (I THINK starts with mining/hunting, if I'm mistaken they're tied).


Your missingthe archer UUs here :P Archery is cheaper then bronzeworking and so is hunting+archery. And if you dont consider recource costs chariot uus would come before it aswell... O and theres the fast worker :lol: But lets not count that one.

So it would go like this without accounting for resources and just counting tech costs.

1. Quecha
2. War chariot
3. Immortal
4. Bowman/skirmischer
5. holkan (requires hunting, but mayas start with mining so its a bit quicker then the rest)
6. dog warrior / vulture / phalanx
7. impi

With resources:

1.Quecha
2. Bowman/skirmischer
3. holkan
4. dog warrior

How did you calculate those numbers? To me it seems like its:

Dog: 8 vs 7.5 8 vs 4, 8 vs 6, 8 vs 12
Axe: 7.5 vs 7.5 7.5 vs 4, 7.5 vs 6, 7.5 vs 12

And I already said it was better against melee, but only by a small amount while it gets alot worse against archers, chariots, horese archers and catapults (the non-melee units it will fight against the most).

Attacker bonuses cancel out the same amount of defender bonus, rather than boosting the attacker's strength. For example:

Dog (4/+100%) attacks Axe (5/+50%) --> Dog (4/+50%) v. Axe (5/+0%) --> Dog (6) v. Axe (5)

Axe (5/+50%) attacks Dog (4/+100%) --> Axe (5/+0%) v. Dog (4/+50%) --> Axe (5) v. Dog (6)

The same principle works with Dogs and Macemen, just change the base strength from the Axe's 5 to the Mace's 8.

Similarly:

Axe (5/+50%) v. Axe (5/+50%) --> Axe (5/+0%) v. Axe (5/+0%) --> Axe (5) v. Axe (5)

Obviously in this case it matters not which is attacking. Since Macemen get the same bonus, you need only substitute the base strength on either side, but the result is the same in that the Mace/Axe bonuses cancel one another, leaving both units at base strength.

NB: The combat promotions are the only ones that behave differently, augmenting the attacker rather than reducing the defender's bonus.

Sorry guys, it doesn't actually quite work in either of those ways...the bonuses are subtracted from the defender (the formulas are in The War Academy....search for Combat Odds Explained)...

In straight no promos case:

DOG SOLDIER VS:-

Axe:- 4 v 3.33 =73%
Spear-4 vs 2.0 =99.1%
Mace- 4 vs 5.33=21.9%

AXEMAN:-

Axe- 5 vs 5 = 50%
Spear-5 vs 2.66=98.8%
Mace-5 vs 8.00=4.44% (DO you feel lucky punk??? Well do ya ?!!)

Once you see the formulas it all starts to make sense...Combat Explained (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/combat_explained.php)

Forgot skirmisher/bowman. Without horses in BFC of the CAPITOL though (not impossible but fairly rare) no chariot UU will come prior to holkan/dog soldier, nor will they be whipped then. The ability to be whipped instantly upon completion of their tech also helps make dog soldiers faster. You can hit with a large stack of them pretty much as fast as is attainable with skirmishers/bowmen, and they're more effective than those due to CR (protective skirmishers could get cover, but MM isn't sadly - it would be one of its few uses).

War chariots are REALLY fast with hatty if she happens to have horses. They're the only ones that could really easily block a dog soldier choke. My money is on the AI not doing that effectively though.

Sorry guys, it doesn't actually quite work in either of those ways...the bonuses are subtracted from the defender (the formulas are in The War Academy....search for Combat Odds Explained)...

In straight no promos case:

DOG SOLDIER VS:-

Axe:- 4 v 3.33 =73%
Spear-4 vs 2.0 =99.1%
Mace- 4 vs 5.33=21.9%

AXEMAN:-

Axe- 5 vs 5 = 50%
Spear-5 vs 2.66=98.8%
Mace-5 vs 8.00=4.44% (DO you feel lucky punk??? Well do ya ?!!)

Once you see the formulas it all starts to make sense...Combat Explained (://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/combat_explained.php)

Wow cobat is way more complicated then i thought...

Strange that you can play so much of the game without grasping those concepts.

Wow cobat is way more complicated then i thought...

Strange that you can play so much of the game without grasping those concepts.

Yes, and you only need a relatively small edge to make quite a difference to the overall odds. When attacking with a medium sized stack, I often go through the whole stack one at a time to find out which match up will give me the best odds, it isn't always obvious....

Sorry guys, it doesn't actually quite work in either of those ways...the bonuses are subtracted from the defender (the formulas are in The War Academy....search for Combat Odds Explained)...

In straight no promos case:

DOG SOLDIER VS:-

Axe:- 4 v 3.33 =73%
Spear-4 vs 2.0 =99.1%
Mace- 4 vs 5.33=21.9%

AXEMAN:-

Axe- 5 vs 5 = 50%
Spear-5 vs 2.66=98.8%
Mace-5 vs 8.00=4.44% (DO you feel lucky punk??? Well do ya ?!!)

Once you see the formulas it all starts to make sense...Combat Explained (://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/combat_explained.php)

I read the article but this isn't 100% clear. Applying the bonuses entirely to the defender, a dog soldier vs an axe would be what, 4 vs (5-5*.5) or 4 vs 2.5? Where's the extra .83 coming from? Are we assuming fortification or combat or something?

Based on flatland the spear would similarly be 2.00?

This is odd though. Theoretically if reversed but still both on flatland, axe vs dog would be 5 vs (4+4*.5) or 5 vs 6. This can't be right, because that yields different odds than what my above calculation would give, but based on the "combat explained" article it SEEMS like this is what would occur.

Edit: Nevermind. I was doing it wrong. It would look like:

4 vs (5/1.5) = 4 vs 3.33, just as he said. If it's negative it changes a bit. I assume this is to prevent negative strengths, lol.

Sorry guys, it doesn't actually quite work in either of those ways...the bonuses are subtracted from the defender (the formulas are in The War Academy....search for Combat Odds Explained)...

In straight no promos case:

DOG SOLDIER VS:-

Axe:- 4 v 3.33 =73%
Spear-4 vs 2.0 =99.1%
Mace- 4 vs 5.33=21.9%

AXEMAN:-

Axe- 5 vs 5 = 50%
Spear-5 vs 2.66=98.8%
Mace-5 vs 8.00=4.44% (DO you feel lucky punk??? Well do ya ?!!)

Once you see the formulas it all starts to make sense...Combat Explained (://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/combat_explained.php)

You're right, and I'm kicking myself for forgetting the procedure when the attacker has bonus left over. The axe in the dog attack scenario would have its strength divided by 1.5 (1 + the dog's leftover bonus). Can't access the War Academy from work, but I'm sure that's the same article I read way back in the days of Vanilla, no?

Ugh i hate dog soldiers...

4 :strength: and + 100% against melee gives you 8 :strength: against melee units.

5 :strength: and + 50% against melee gives you 7.5 :strength: against melee.

Wow a 0.5 :strength: increase against melee units! Woo! And that at the cost of losing 1 :strength: against mounted and archer units...

They are simply worse then regular axeman in the average game, great UU!

No need to connect bronze is nice. If you are on a map with no resources nearby and lots of barbarians, they are wonderfully convenient for taking advantage of the Philosophical trait and lazily building wonders and settling cities instead of worrying about an early axe rush.

I read the article but this isn't 100% clear. Applying the bonuses entirely to the defender, a dog soldier vs an axe would be what, 4 vs (5-5*.5) or 4 vs 2.5? Where's the extra .83 coming from? Are we assuming fortification or combat or something?

Based on flatland the spear would similarly be 2.00?

This is odd though. Theoretically if reversed but still both on flatland, axe vs dog would be 5 vs (4+4*.5) or 5 vs 6. This can't be right, because that yields different odds than what my above calculation would give, but based on the "combat explained" article it SEEMS like this is what would occur.

The bonus is worked out and then put in into the equation (I'll show below)

Ok a flatlands combat:- Dog Soldier 4.00 vs AXe 5.00

The bonuses :- Dog gets +100% , AXe gets 50%, therefore on the defender : 50-100 =-50

The Equation is then Def Nat Str/ (1-(Modifier/100))= Def Modified Str

In this case thats : 5 / (1-(-50/100)=DMS
which is 5/ (1.5)=3.33

If the modifier is positive you just add the modifier percentage to the defender....e.g. if the AXe got 100% vs Melee and The Dog 50% vs melee, then it would be

5 + 5*.50=7.5

Any clearer? (Agreed that its a damn complicated way of doing things though :crazyeye:)

On the jaguars, they are cheaper than Swords by 5 hammers (basically a 12% discount). Overall I feel they are a decent rushing UU and well-balanced. I have successful rushes with them and can take out multiple neighbors with a iron-working beeline (or Oracle slingshot).

Dog Soldiers suck for rushing your neighbors though since their leader isn't aggressive, and they're too weak to take a garrison promoted archer and probably even a plain, fully-fortified archer. Probably their only use is harrasment, and maybe to steal the first neighbor's newly settled city.

On the Hippodrome, I wouldn't whine, because it makes horse, a non-luxury, a source of happiness. Dye is a source of happiness regardless of theatres, and isn't encountered everywhere. The 2x happiness from culture is up-front a better boon.

On Numidian cav, don't forget the +50% vs. melee and the free flanking 1. That's a reasonable trade for 1 strength point. 7.5 vs. melee and a better chance to escape vs. stock 6 vs. melee. sure neither will beat the spearman's 8 or the phalanx's 10, but two Numidians probably will while 2 horse archers might not (unpromoted).

On Numidian cav, don't forget the +50% vs. melee and the free flanking 1. That's a reasonable trade for 1 strength point. 7.5 vs. melee and a better chance to escape vs. stock 6 vs. melee. sure neither will beat the spearman's 8 or the phalanx's 10, but two Numidians probably will while 2 horse archers might not (unpromoted).

Question, are you playing Warlords?

@Goodgame... I am not moaning. Please see the other post similar to yours on the first page -.- Its a purely informational topic, because myself (and many others) don't expect you to LOSE abilities...

Note: You don't see me complaining about Prets (or Cataphracts, which really helped me as well ;) ) Both of which are Surprising...

while playing with the aztecs many times i just have to miss the 6 :strength: of swordmen. I think it is pretty unfair that having iron i cannot build them. I really think the solution would be to allow ALL civs to build ALL standard units, and program the AI to pick up wisely their units.

I can't see it mentioned yet but doesn't the Praet lose the swordsman's +10% city attack? Someone correct me if I'm wrong please - I'm at work so I can't check. Obviously the higher strength more than makes up for it, but I think it fits your definition of a surprise :)

I can't see it mentioned yet but doesn't the Praet lose the swordsman's +10% city attack? Someone correct me if I'm wrong please - I'm at work so I can't check. Obviously the higher strength more than makes up for it, but I think it fits your definition of a surprise :)

Yeah, but this thread is not about if they are worse, its if they lose an ability, such as strength, or this time, the + 10% city attack.

Situationally, anything can be worse than the default, mostly because the defender with the best chances always jumps in instead of the most cost-effective one... the same logic applies as for the Ballista Elephant, just not always as obvious.

Example: Attack with Cossacks, opponent defends with Pikes instead of Cuirassiers thanks to your bonus vs. mounted units. Next round the Cuirassiers decimate your stack of cannons and the wars ends in a standstill rather than a decisive victory because your UU had a bonus that was inconvenient at the time.

***

For this reason, I wouldn't include the Praetorians - it's easy to come up with a situation where any UU is worse than the parent unit, with the possible exception of Carracks and Fast Workers.

I can't think of a common (very rare exceptions are always possible, see example above) situation where having Praetorians is a liability, but I can for the likes of Dog Soldiers, Jaguars, Keshiks, Numidian Cavalry and even Vultures.

I think you'd have a hard time finding a situation where guys like SEALS, musketeers/oromos, and Cho ko nus would be disadvantaged vs stock units too, but the point holds.

I did some test runs with dog soldier rushes last night. It CAN work but I'd rather have axes tbh :lol:. However, if you are in a situation that allows chokes to be effective, the are ABSOLUTELY INCREDIBLE AT CHOKING, as are holkans.

BE will always attack mounted units. ie if there are axeman and charriot in enemy stack, and you have BE and spearman in your stack, you can not win - BE kills charriot, axeman kills spearman. If you have an ordinary Elephant, it kills axeman and then spearman kills charriot.


uh maybe it was changed in 3.13 or 3.17
it definitely was only 50% in 3.03

SOrry for the rude answer, it definitely wasn't. I play Mayans all the time since their dusk in civ iv. They always had +100% towards mounted and ignore first strikes and are resourceless units.

Another UB with a situational disadvantage, as you claim, is the Ziggurat, you are forced to follow the religious path to get it, while in some strategies you would be just fine beelining CoL.

SOrry for the rude answer, it definitely wasn't. I play Mayans all the time since their dusk in civ iv. They always had +100% towards mounted and ignore first strikes and are resourceless units.

Another UB with a situational disadvantage, as you claim, is the Ziggurat, you are forced to follow the religious path to get it, while in some strategies you would be just fine beelining CoL.

Also if you play a custom game with the No Espionage option, the Ziggurat wastes its +2 :espionage: bonus.

Also if you play a custom game with the No Espionage option, the Ziggurat wastes its +2 :espionage: bonus.

Isnt that true for the regular courthouse aswell?

Yes. And the two other Courthouse UBs, Holy Roman Rathaus and Aztec Sacrifical Altar.

Question, are you playing Warlords?

Nah, but my bad. I was misremembering that phalanx was actually replacing Axes and only had 100% vs. chariots.

IMO, this is about abilities that are lost, and are surprising because you go "Oh... so X doesn't have the ability that Y has", not specifically because there exists an example where the UU is weaker than its regular form (although that normally happens when you remove an ability)

As a result, I have noted the Prets loss of strength in city attack (which, thankfully, exists. Otherwise Prets would be stronger than maces against Longbows / Crossbows, in a city attack!!) in the first post.

Forgot skirmisher/bowman. Without horses in BFC of the CAPITOL though (not impossible but fairly rare) no chariot UU will come prior to holkan/dog soldier, nor will they be whipped then. The ability to be whipped instantly upon completion of their tech also helps make dog soldiers faster. You can hit with a large stack of them pretty much as fast as is attainable with skirmishers/bowmen, and they're more effective than those due to CR (protective skirmishers could get cover, but MM isn't sadly - it would be one of its few uses).

War chariots are REALLY fast with hatty if she happens to have horses. They're the only ones that could really easily block a dog soldier choke. My money is on the AI not doing that effectively though.

I think the Skirmisher is worth mentioning as well. It has 1-2 first strikes and has +1:strength: over the Archer (4:strength: total).

Compare the strength of the Dog Soldier's '5' to the Skirmisher's '4.' I have found much better success with the early Skirmisher rush. Cheap & easy (Skirmisher same cost as Archer) monster-sized SoDs with no military chopping/whipping required:lol:. The Dog Soldier, or any Axeman UU, doesn't match up well to Archer units, which for me have been the majority of AI city defences in the early, eary game. So the Dog Soldier:thumbsdown: I find least beneficial, especially with the extreme comparison of only +1:strength: to an Archer UU.

So with Skirmisher, there is no race to Bronze Working, no missing the Oracle, & no hoping to have copper/iron, build improvement, etc. The Skirmisher is now one of my fav. UUs for the early rush because an army of them can be built so fast.