I thought I'd start a thread regarding the implementation of an Asian mod.

We should discuss what civs should be added, and also new terrain types (if any), new units, and new commodities.

I'll simply make a few initial notes to spur discussion.

Instead of "native americans", we'd need to add the Chinese, Korean, Japanese, Indonesian, Indochinese, Indian, Philippine, Aboriginal, and Polynesian civs. With some of those groups representing larger areas, ie, aborigines representing indiginous Australian, New Zealand and Taiwanese ppls and polynesians representing the many smaller islands.

We'd want to find 4 new commodities to match the American commoditites. Off the top of my head I can think of tea, silk, salt and opium (with opium and silk a must).

Of course, as to new units, there would be the need for specialized units to cultivate/refine the new commodities.

We could debate whether Japan should be included as a colonizer or as a tougher native civ.

As for new Euro civs, Russia, Germany and Portugal should be added.

I thought I'd start a thread regarding the implementation of an Asian mod.

We should discuss what civs should be added, and also new terrain types (if any), new units, and new commodities.

I'll simply make a few initial notes to spur discussion.

Instead of "native americans", we'd need to add the Chinese, Korean, Japanese, Indonesian, Indochinese, Indian, Philippine, Aboriginal, and Polynesian civs. With some of those groups representing larger areas, ie, aborigines representing indiginous Australian, New Zealand and Taiwanese ppls and polynesians representing the many smaller islands.

We'd want to find 4 new commodities to match the American commoditites. Off the top of my head I can think of tea, silk, salt and opium (with opium and silk a must).

Of course, as to new units, there would be the need for specialized units to cultivate/refine the new commodities.

We could debate whether Japan should be included as a colonizer or as a tougher native civ.

As for new Euro civs, Russia, Germany and Portugal should be added.

I think you'd probably call the commodity poppies, such that poppies -> opium.

Raw silk -> finished silk does make sense, and so does raw tea -> finished tea.

What will salt become? Raw to finished as well? Spices might work better instead of salt, and it's possible that sugar to something else might still work as well.

Silk into shirts/dresses
Poppy seeds into opium
spices into tea

Perhaps, for extra flavor, in Asia we could have a single grown commodity that could be "refined" into two different finished goods. Such as spices that could be converted into either tea or opium (and in the case of Africa into pepper).

Salt, similar to gold in Africa, could be another grab and sell commodity (like silver in the original game).

porcelain?

Spices, it will work. And again I put myself available as a civilization builder. My skills have improved alot:lol:.

The thing with Asia is that, given there were many more established states (even empires), there was way more imperialism than colonization. The only real places where you could actually establish colonies among stone age natives (like most of Colonization portrays) were some islands across the Pacific, and Australia. China wasn't a joke, nor was Japan nor India nor many of the smaller states inbetween. They'd immediately kick you out with way more than "braves" as soon as you dare build a settlement in their territory.

More than an expansion of Colonization, this mod would be a completely different thing.

A much better "Asia mod" would show Australia some of Indonesia with China, India, Japan, etc. as Colonizing Powers

A much better "Asia mod" would show Australia some of Indonesia with China, India, Japan, etc. as Colonizing Powers

The only problem with this is China, India and Japan didn't colonize Australia and Indonesia. That wouldn't actually be that much of a deal if Colonization was based around non-colonizing powers in a random peace of land. But this isn't really the case.

Well If Europe was out of the picture it could have happened.

You've to be conservative with assumptions.

Otherwise you could end up with the Roman Empire colonizing Japan or North America.

whish is what an Asia mod would be... the fact is the Americas and Australia were the only places with any significant colonization, because in those cases the natives were the most outmatched by the Europeans. In other cases it would have to be Civ: Imperialism... which would be interesting, but not the same game.

There will be a game for that sort of. Empire: Total War, though I'd be surprised if the diplomacy bit is anything but horrible given the track record. All flash no substance is my bet. :/

There will be a game for that sort of. Empire: Total War, though I'd be surprised if the diplomacy bit is anything but horrible given the track record. All flash no substance is my bet. :/
The previous Total War games were all great, in my humble opinion. I will expect the same from Empire.

Well If Europe was out of the picture it could have happened.

India might have but not in the cases of China and Japan. Both of these countries where very centralistic and would have nothing to do with the outside world. China even build quite the wall to get rid of foreign influences. Japan would have build a great wall to if it wasn't an isolated island already.

Once both of these places where open to other countries, all heck broke loose. We all know how that turned out. (China - most economic growing country, Japan - most technologicaly advanced country)

India might have but not in the cases of China and Japan. Both of these countries where very centralistic and would have nothing to do with the outside world. China even build quite the wall to get rid of foreign influences. Japan would have build a great wall to if it wasn't an isolated island already.

Once both of these places where open to other countries, all heck broke loose. We all know how that turned out. (China - most economic growing country, Japan - most technologicaly advanced country)


I dunno, if Europeans were completely out of the picture, it might have taken a long time, but both China and Japan went through periods of being open to the rest of the world prior to the dates they are traditionally considered to be opened by Europe, e.g. Zheng He's voyages for China and Oda Nobunaga's encouragement of foreign trade in Japan, so those times could have come round again.

Admittedly, we might be talking about an extra couple of centuries over the time that Europe was engaging in this stuff, but that's not so much of a concern if there's no Europe to worry about. They might have even come a bit faster if China had gone through another Warlords period.

Obviously, not the sort of thing you'd want in the main game but it seems like fair game for an alternative history mod to me.

Well, I've done some research on the colonization of Asia and came with staggering results.

The countries that colonized most of (South East) Asia are, the Dutch, the French and the Britains. Seeing that these empires allready are in-game it would be fairly easy. But, since I don't like easy, I did some deeper digging, and found that Japan might me an option as a colonial force, they did some things in Korea and Manchuria afterall. Another good one would be Russia (Siberia, Kamchatka and everything). And if we would include the Pacific we could also have Spain.

First a quick list of exlorers/governors/leaders to choose in game for the three biggest empires.

The Dutch featuring
Abel Tasman (Discovered Tasmania and New Zealand)
Jan Pieterszoon Coen (Governor-General of the VOC)
And/or maybe, for fun (and my favourite)
Eduard Douwes Dekker (assistent-resident of Ambon and Lebak, and a famous writer under the nickname Multatuli)

The English featuring
James Cook (Explored Australia, New Zealand and Hawaï)
Warren Hastings (First governor of British India)

The French featuring
Alexander de Rhodes (Jesuit missionary who had a lasting impact on Christianity in Vietnam)
Pigneau de Behaine (Catholic priest best known for his role in assisting Nguyen Anh)

Seeing as that both French figures where quite the spiritual type we might have to do something with the traits.

Now on to the other options.

The Japanese featuring
Yamada Nagamasa (Explored large parts of Asia)
Hasekura Tsunenaga (Ambassador, Diplomat and... Samurai)

The Russians featuring
Vassili Poyarkov (Explored Yakutsk)
Nikolay Muravyov-Amursky (Governor General of Irkutsk and Yeniseysk)

The Spanish featuring
Alvaro de Mendaña de Neyra (Explored the Pacific)
Pedro Sarmiento de Gamboa (idem dito)

May I suggest Lord Robert Clive for one of the British, and it should be Great Britain, leaders?

I also think there should be a way to "colonise" Natives countries peacefully (alliance? Vassal state?), perhaps setting up a factory (Historical term, not modern), which gives you control of a city peacefully. There probably shouldn't be building of new Cities in Native territory, or at least not remotely civilised natives. Australia and Indonesia might be better, but I don't think many British colonists build cities in India. Not saying that the British didn't build cities in India, just that they were mostly inhabited by Indians.

There should also be a way to eventually absorb vassals into your empire. Maybe you can "buy" out their cities for cheaper. This would facilitate more historical game play, as you may know, European powers didn't straight out conquer Asia, they intimidated the local powers into submitted and then slowly weeded them out of power.

Travel time to the Homeland should be higher, because the transports have to go around Africa. There should probably be a better factory (modern usage) system, if the game play goes into the golden age of Imperialism. Working more like the Armoury, where you have to build a factory before you can get access to its production line. Maybe not three tier upgrades for those.

And would the WoI system work in this setting? Colonial Holdings in Asia didn't really rebel, and at least in the British system, the got tighter controlled after the India Mutiny.

edit: Japan is really a fantasy option, although this is a sid meiers game. Japan wasn't a viable colonial empire until the late 19th century, after it modernised. China was more viable, seeing as in the 15th century they had that expedition under Admerial Zhang (?). But I wouldn't recommend adding either as a "colonial power"

Also, the Spaniards were some of the first Europeans to start into Indochina in the Philippines. Interestingly enough, the Islamic Moro people of the southern island draw there name from the Spanish who insisted on calling all violent Muslims "Moors".

For Asia, you should be able to colonize southeast asia, australia and all sort of tiny islands. Maybe you can control a couple port cities in China/Japan/Korea? Or some kind of sphere of influence where you can get bonus in trades.

The only problem with this is China, India and Japan didn't colonize Australia and Indonesia. That wouldn't actually be that much of a deal if Colonization was based around non-colonizing powers in a random peace of land. But this isn't really the case.

I'm sorry, but japan colonized indonesia in WW2
Really interested with this mod, by the way.:)

@Verenti

Yes you're right it should be Great Britain. My thoughts of naming the thing where a few centuries to early, when the Isles weren't together yet (Scotland, England and Whales being different countries and all) And about colonizing the natives peacefully I'm thinking about ambassies and trade contracts with the greater powers of the area.

About Japan being a fantasy option, I agree actually. But since the colonial development in Asia had a different chronological order we have to expand the timeline which just might put Japan in place.

@i. diavolorosso
Yes, they did. And as you said they did it in WWII. But isn't that time span a bit to modern, seeing as that after that 60&% of all African/Asian colonies got their indepence in the 15 years after it.

The prime-time of the Asian colonization period is in the 19th century, so I believe that when we talk about Asian colonial development, we should stick to that time.

Also, before anyone asks, the reason why I didn't put Portugal (Timor) and Germany (Papua) on the list is because well, their colonization wasn't really that great/influential in that area. At all.

Silkworms -> Silk -> Clothing

Tea Plants -> Tea (Green Tea for a more oriental feel)

Poppies Seeds -> Opium

Soybeans -> Soy Sauce XD (China and India used it WAY before America)

Salt can be find anywhere, so i don't think it be a good commodity. Now since it's going to be a bit Asian, replace the Corn to Rice, as it is the most used food in the eastern area. Replace the Church Crosses with the Buddha Statue, also make sure the temple is a Buddhist Temple. We need new looks on the people to make them look Asian, make the farmers wear them straw hats and the Soldiers look historically close (Meiji?). Asian Leaderheads as well and different movies as well (it's funny to declare independence in America when your not in America...).

We also need a change to a more oriental music as well to replace the tracks of the original. There Alcohol is not rum, it's sake. Did you forget the Mongols? They thrived in these lands as well.


If you want an Asia mod, you got to re-graphic and change everything, might replace the UI looks if you can. To make it look somewhat realistic to the colonization in Asia.

@Verenti

Yes you're right it should be Great Britain. My thoughts of naming the thing where a few centuries to early, when the Isles weren't together yet (Scotland, England and Whales being different countries and all) And about colonizing the natives peacefully I'm thinking about ambassies and trade contracts with the greater powers of the area.

About Japan being a fantasy option, I agree actually. But since the colonial development in Asia had a different chronological order we have to expand the timeline which just might put Japan in place.

@i. diavolorosso
Yes, they did. And as you said they did it in WWII. But isn't that time span a bit to modern, seeing as that after that 60&% of all African/Asian colonies got their indepence in the 15 years after it.

The prime-time of the Asian colonization period is in the 19th century, so I believe that when we talk about Asian colonial development, we should stick to that time.

Also, before anyone asks, the reason why I didn't put Portugal (Timor) and Germany (Papua) on the list is because well, their colonization wasn't really that great/influential in that area. At all.
I guess you're right.Doesn't notice that before ;)
BY the way, may i know your progress??
Like i said before, really interest with this one;)

I guess you're right.Doesn't notice that before ;)
BY the way, may i know your progress??
Like i said before, really interest with this one;)

Theres no actual progress, I only offered to help mr. sirsnuggles. Haven't heard anything about that actually. I may start this mod all by myself, just have to figure how to do the map and rescources an all.

Even if I weren't doing an Asia or Africa mod I would want to figure out those things actually, for my own secret project. It has something to do with Colonization and the title of a Nintendo game:p.

You may consider the Germans for entry into this mod, as I seem to remember they had colonies in Papua-New Guinea

Theres no actual progress, I only offered to help mr. sirsnuggles. Haven't heard anything about that actually. I may start this mod all by myself, just have to figure how to do the map and rescources an all.

Even if I weren't doing an Asia or Africa mod I would want to figure out those things actually, for my own secret project. It has something to do with Colonization and the title of a Nintendo game:p.
:p
Ouwch, so i'll just wait the good news from him
:)

You may consider the Germans for entry into this mod, as I seem to remember they had colonies in Papua-New Guinea

Not everyone reads all the posts I noticed:lol:.

As you read a few posts back you I said that, although they had Papua (not the New Guinea part) colonised, there influence in the area wasn't big enough. If in the original they would add countries with the same amount of influence, we would have had Denmark, Scotland and Prussia/Germany allready in game:D.

Still wonder why they left Portugal and Russia out actually.

Well, other than Alaska, which is hardly in Asia, Russia didnt really make any significant oceanic based colonisation. Their "colonisation" was more in middle asia, as they didn't really change the face of the far east or south and south east asia.

Where Germany didn't colonise much other than Papua-New Guinea, Japan in comparison colonised nothing, and their colonisation in the area corresponded to taking over other countries, which in good conscience was only really Korea. Plus Japan is less suitable as a player country because it's motherland is on the gameplay map, especially if Russia is included. Even taking in the acquisition of Indochina from Vichy-France as Colonisation, which I don't, or the capture of Malaysia, which I really don't, The territorial gains weren't that great and sure weren't held for a long time.

Not particularly good reasons for the inclusion of Germany, but it's not much worse than Spain included, and better than Russia and Japan.

Well, other than Alaska, which is hardly in Asia, Russia didnt really make any significant oceanic based colonisation. Their "colonisation" was more in middle asia, as they didn't really change the face of the far east or south and south east asia.

Where Germany didn't colonise much other than Papua-New Guinea, Japan in comparison colonised nothing, and their colonisation in the area corresponded to taking over other countries, which in good conscience was only really Korea. Plus Japan is less suitable as a player country because it's motherland is on the gameplay map, especially if Russia is included. Even taking in the acquisition of Indochina from Vichy-France as Colonisation, which I don't, or the capture of Malaysia, which I really don't, The territorial gains weren't that great and sure weren't held for a long time.

Not particularly good reasons for the inclusion of Germany, but it's not much worse than Spain included, and better than Russia and Japan.

All you say is true, but this is an Asia mod, not a south-east Asia mod or East Indies mod. I believe the plan is the mod also includes major parts of the mainland. I'm talking Siberia untill Manchuria. (Hence Russian influence)

And what you say about Japan is true, most of their colonies were conquered. Yet they did colonize some lesser places (Colonize, not conquer) like the Ryuki-Islands and other small patches of Islands. Thus leaving their mark outside their mainland. But yeah, the place is on the mothermap, thus not all that suited.

But in order to make a nice mod, we have to make choices, because, if we look to colonization, and colonization only. Only the Dutch and the Brittains would make this mod work. And I'm not even that sure about the Brittains because India and all it's subdivision were pretty tight, none tribalised societies. Hence another conquer not colonize thing.

So the choice is all yours, a mod with your criteria including only the Dutch, or a bit looser criteria and having none Asian countries with a big influence in the area :D.

I think there may be something to not having Japan and China as simple native civs. I would also say that this should really break with the "colonization" model and should focus on more of a conquest model because, as has been noted, Asia had large, dense populations by the time the Europeans arrived and there was never really an opportunity establish colonies from scratch on largely unused land.

Also, the early period of the exploration of Asia by the Europeans was dominated by the Portuguese and Spanish. If you're going to set this later, then you can get away with leaving out the Portuguese. Otherwise, they should be included.

I agree with Dom Pedro, any mod focusing on Asia should have asian civs with full civ status, then add some minors indian-like in colonizable places. Dont know if its possible to create such a mod but it would definitly be very interesting!

That was one of my ideas too, and I believe it could be made possible. Not yet sure how. But from what I could understand from the code something can be done;)

That was one of my ideas too, and I believe it could be made possible. Not yet sure how. But from what I could understand from the code something can be done;)

Given the amount of code they've exposed (if Civ4 has been any experience), damn near anything can be done. You can have pink flying horsies if it suits you. I'm compiling a list of things I'd like to see added right now... some of which will be drastic changes to the game. Such is the beauty of Civ.

Hi

please add persian civ.
(Safavid Empire)

Thanks

You might want to know that a mod like this is already under process of being built at this link:
Asian Colonization (Pure Fantasy) Development Thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=296782)

Well that mod is not quite the same I think. That is about the Asian Colonisation of the New World, whereas this is about the European Colonisation of Asia. Should be interesting to watch how the two develop and reflect/differ from each other! :)

One thing to note: the Asian colonisation of Asia, in terms of territories, did not really progress much until the 1700s (India) and 1800s (elsewhere). Before this European companies competed with Asians and each other for control of trade routes and their presence on land is limited to trading posts/coastal fortresses (partly because Europeans were never in enough numbers and never had the military edge to overcome Asian empires). Perhaps this mod could model the changing nature of the Asian-European interaction, and the opening, closing, and reopening of Asian countries throughout the period of 1500 - 1900.

Don't know if anyone is still working on this, but I'll be stealing some founding-father ideas from you ;)