Welcome to your BtS SGOTM 8 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

The Game
This will be the first Beyond the Sword SGOTM. Thanks, Gyathaar :thumbsup:

Following his recent honeymoon in the Far East, Gyathaar, aka Suryavarman II of the Khmer Empire, is just Crazy About Wonders. He has decreed that he will win a glorious victory and that his total Wonder points per turn played will then be the envy of the world.

Suryavarman II is Expansive and Creative, with the Ballista Elephant to assist in acquiring Wonders he can't build himself, and the Baray to allow him to build the Hanging Gardens.

It is a Normal speed, Monarch difficulty game on a Standard map. All victory conditions are enabled.

The Objective
The winners will be the teams who achieve a Victory by any means, and who score the highest Wonder Points per Turn Played.

Five Wonder Points are awarded for each Wonder controlled by the Team, and are displayed as the 'xx' in "yy from Wonders (xx/310)" when you hover your mouse over your score in the game screen. 310 is the maximum Wonder Points score you can achieve if you control all Wonders and National Wonders.

Versions
This game will be played in Civilization IV Beyond the Sword, version 3.17, using HoF Mod 3.17.001 (http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/mod.php#bts_download).

If a later BtS patch is released during this game you will NOT be able to use it to play. You will need to complete this game in version 3.17 before updating your copy of BtS, or create and update a separate copy.

As there is no Mac version of BtS, Mac players can only join in if they are able to run the Windows version on their system.

Schedule

The Team threads will open shortly.
The start files will be published on Friday, September 12.
Please try to complete the game within three months of the start date.

Starting Position
Here's the starting position - click the image below to see a larger version.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm08_start_small.jpg (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm08_start.jpg)

Map Parameters

Playable Leader/Civ - Suryavarman II of the Khmer Empire.
Characteristics - Expansive and Creative, starts with Hunting and Mining
Unique Unit - Ballista Elephant (War elephant)
Unique Building - Baray (Aqueduct)
Rivals - 7 AI civs
World size - Standard
Difficulty - Monarch
Landform - Big and Small
Environment - Temperate climate, medium sea level
Game Speed - Normal
Everything else - Default

Notes

Please visit the Civ4 SGOTM reference thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=168439) to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.

Teams will compete for up to four awards - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the highest Wonder Score per Turn Played, and the Wooden Spoons for the finishing team with the lowest final score.

You can capture wonders, or build them yourself. Remember you cannot capture national wonders.
A victory in turn 100 with 10 wonders controlled gets the same score as winning in turn 200 with 20 wonders..
In BtS the max number of wonders is 62, including corp headquarters and holy city buildings, national wonders, palace and world wonders.

All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

Do NOT view any other team threads until you have submitted your last save - win, lose or retire.

Do NOT download any other team's save.

Enjoy your game, and please be nice to each other :D

Well team, I'm here and ready to rumble. I've PMed all of about an eventual team training a couple of days ago but it looks like TMIT is the only who has replied. From now I suggest we discuss it in here.

Also, I will get the HoF mod up asap - should be a couple of days or so. This means that I am not eligable to play the starting round (and frankly I believe it is better if one you do it since I am a Monarch player).

On a related note I am poor at whipping. And we're here to win, not to learn something. So I would like very clear instructions for whipping on turnsets I play.

Good to have the game rolling and crossing fingers for a victory!

A lot of my training to go emperor -----> immortal (I'm still in the process of making the jump but progress is promising now) was whip training, so maybe I can help. There's differing opinions on it though, so we'll have to see what the rest of the team wants.

More important is our strategy in this game. There are lots of ways to attain wonders. For example, if we achieved an ultra-early conquest win, it may be possible to win this challenge without BUILDING a single wonder. Alternatively, we could try to spam them all en route to space. It may also be worthwhile to take a chance at an AP diplo win, because if we set it up correctly (we get stonehenge, oracle or bulb theology, build AP) it's possible to win very, very early and of course all of those above are wonders :p. It would also let us neglect normally important things if we could get even 1 AI to friendly.

IMO AP win has the most potential here, but it's somewhat chancy. Conquest and domination are also highly viable. My theory is we want to end the game fast. 5 wonders is fine for example if we win by like 200 AD :lol:.

One way to mix it is to side with a warmonger, get him to friendly, and CAPTURE as many wonders as we missed as possible, then vote ourselves winner.

Just some thoughts - perhaps the practice games will be more telling.

Checking in and welcome to the new members on board--it's good to have the fresh energy.

Robert the Bruce and Mboza have not responded but hopefully they'll show up.

For those who are new to succession games, the basics of good teamplay are:

1. All major decisions are made with group input in the forum discussion. That would include tech path, war, wonders.

2. Read the discussion. This may sound obvious but there is nothing worse for team morale than someone picking up a save who didn't read what the last player wrote. You just can't know what's going on in a civ game just by looing at the save.
If RL gets in the way then by all means take a skip or a swap--that's never a problem.

3. If something unexpected comes up during your set and you don't know how to proceed--STOP. Better to pause for comments and reflection than make a hasty decision.

4. This is a SGOTM competition, so plan to spend longer on your sets than you would in a typical game. Micromanaging is expected--especially early on when there are few cities.

Ideally a team can be stronger than the strongest player (and for the new players that's not me:)) --a team that doesn't will be a disaster.


As for the current game, my overall impression is that the victory condition will be conquest but that the strategy will have to be modified somewhat to get the wonders. Big and small presumably (but not certainly) means astro.
A fastest finish conquest game would have the player lightbulb a bunch and probably build oracle (or possibly 'mids if stone). Not sure if this will be correct here tho.

What we need to get a handle on is the pace of AI wonder building --especially in a game where the player mops up the AI.

Anybody got any monarch saves in BTS --especially where you played a conquest/dom game? That might be a place to start.

IMO AP win has the most potential here, but it's somewhat chancy. Conquest and domination are also highly viable. My theory is we want to end the game fast. 5 wonders is fine for example if we win by like 200 AD :lol:.

actually the victory is based on number of wonders/number of turns.

If I remember correctly:

4000-1000 =40/yr=75

1000-0 = 25/yr =40

0-1000 = 20/yr =50

1000-1500 =10/yr =50

1500-1750 = 5/yr =50

I forget how it goes after that--can someone fill it in.

But if you win at 0BC at monarch (probably not possible with this map), 5 wonders is probably about it.
5/115 turns is pretty low.
Win at 1750 which is 265 turns you can easily have 30 (just a guess) so a much better score.

Shrines count as wonders so prophets are pretty good.
Corps do also but we may not get there.

checking in....

is there a practice game floating around?

Not yet. We should do one IMO.

I normally play on Monarch and the wonder dates differ alot. It depens extremely on the AIs. People such as Mehmed and Ramessess spam wonders while others almost never touch em. I suggest we play a training game with Sury, same settings as game. First of all we get a picture of when wonders come up on Monarch. Second we get the touch with the Khmer and learn their strengths and weaknesses.

Considering tactics: Worst case scenario is that there is civ overseas. This basically means no Conq nor Diplo pre-Astro, This means that we need either to win otherwise (Cultural? Domi if the other continent is small?). And as a consequence of that we need to get to Astro ASAP, because, granted we already own our own continent, we will basically win when we have Astro->Ships->Found and killed off rivals. Every turn counts.

So we need to get as many wonders up asap, while maintaining a high techpace. This seems to be contradict the religious path which grants few science buffs. Aesthetics would be a must, though, especially with Marble hooked up. I am thinking, let the AIs build SH (We are CRE), Oracle, AP, Shrines(?), other religious wonders (SM, UoS, SC), while we go GLib (perhaps GLH since it looks as Masonry and Sailing might be priorities), GW etc. It would be a plus to grab Prophet wonders for shrines, though. Angkor Wat might be worth tonnes here..!

Checking in.

One of my favourite strategies in off line games is to build all the wonders in the capital (except 1-2 of the earlier ones which are normally too difficult to get. I usually sacrifice the temple of Artemis and maybe the Great Lighthouse) and settle the GPs there. This does mean you expand slower in the early game, but it allows you to build up a very powerful city and a big tech lead so you can easily crush the AI in the middle game. A CS slingshot is very powerful with this strategy, as we have gold we might want to consider trying it?

I think we should let the AI build as many shrines for us as possible. Generating all the GP`s would be very difficult, and this would allow us to settle some of our GP`s.


Conquest/domination look like the most likley victory conditions, but I can`t see this competition being won by going for the earliest possible finish date regardless of whether we need astronomy or not.

Since the team is leaning against AP diplo (which could theoretically be won @ caravels), I am in the "knock some heads" party then. The question is, when? Do we expand to like 10ish cities, hole up and tech like crazy? Or do we get the axe rush going for early continent control? We can get extra wonders the first way, but the 2nd way might ultimately be faster, IF we can wage war effectively.

Remember that once the game is all but wrapped up, nothing is stopping us from spamming all nearby wonders before ending it if doing so improves our wonders/turn ratio.

Since the team is leaning against AP diplo (which could theoretically be won @ caravels), I am in the "knock some heads" party then. The question is, when? Do we expand to like 10ish cities, hole up and tech like crazy? Or do we get the axe rush going for early continent control? We can get extra wonders the first way, but the 2nd way might ultimately be faster, IF we can wage war effectively.

Remember that once the game is all but wrapped up, nothing is stopping us from spamming all nearby wonders before ending it if doing so improves our wonders/turn ratio.
well we don't need to make strategic decisions for a while.
I'd say first order of business is to see what the neighborhood looks like and who's around.
The tradeoff between an normal conquest game and this one is that ideally in a fast conquest game you don't research tech you don't need. So if you need astro, you lightbulb it and make do with the minimum in military tech and nothing else. Spam units and go. This will lead to very few wonders, however.

Another difference is that we may want to let some wonderspammers live peacefully with us in order to have them do our work for us.

As for when wonders get built at monarch, it obviously depends on the AI--but also on us. If we take them out too quickly, we won't get the normal wonder builds.

One of my favourite strategies in off line games is to build all the wonders in the capital (except 1-2 of the earlier ones which are normally too difficult to get. I usually sacrifice the temple of Artemis and the Great Lighthouse) and settle the GPs there. This does mean you expand slower in the early game, but it allows you to build up a very powerful city and a big tech lead so you can easily crush the AI in the middle game. A CS slingshot is very powerful with this strategy, as we have gold we might want to consider trying it?

I think we should let the AI build as many shrines for us as possible. Generating all the GP`s would be very difficult, and this would allow us to settle some of our GP`s.

Yes I enjoy those games as well--you might want to check out some of the lonely heart's club games--I think that's often a good strategy when isolated.

CS sling is a very intriguing possibility.

One advantage of the oracle is that we'll likely get a prophet or two whether we like it or not. Given that the AI will surely not get all the shrines built each prophet if we save it (may not be worth it) is a wonder.

Exactly. We should keep whatever prophets we get our hands on.
Seeing the lay of the land is nice, but our first turnset has to play to 3000 BC as far as I've understood. Can we wait until 3000 BC to decide on our strategy? I am not sure :S

Seeing the lay of the land is nice, but our first turnset has to play to 3000 BC as far as I've understood. Can we wait until 3000 BC to decide on our strategy? I am not sure

The length of the turnsets is up to the team in a SGOTM, and we can always pause in the middle of a turnset if we need to. I agree that we will have to adjust our strategy to the map. For now we just need to agree on the first 1-2 techs and builds.

I have made a test map to try various opening out. One is :


T13 animal husbandry
T15 worker
T19 fishing
T20 warrior
T25 mysticism
T28 workboat
T30 wheel
T39 bronze working
T45 Stonehenge
T47 warrior/writing
T49 library (1 chop)
T51 masonry
T52 grow size 6 hire 2 scientists
T56 settler (1 chop)
T64 maths
T67 meditation
T68 Great Wall
T69 settle Great prophet, the chances of this were just over 50%.
T70 priesthood
T74 2nd city builds worker, start settler.
T84 code of laws, civil service, oracle.

We can get 2 more settlers out in 2 turns. By contrast the AI`s had 3-6 citys at this point, so they would not be much bigger than us.


I didn`t keep any gold in reserve until I got the GP, but we might want to in case we get any random events.

Looks good so you're at... what date on T84? 775 BC?

I am thinking, we play this test game through, note any wonders the AI builds and checks what AI builds it, then check their wonder-build stat in the spreadsheet so that we can get a good impression of not only when it was built in this game but when it is normally built (meaning that if Ramesses is in the test game wonder will be built faster than normal, so we might want to adjust the dates a bit if there are no wonderwhores in the real game).

Question - are we all playing a test game individually, and reporting wonder dates etc, or are we going to do a "dry run" in SG mode?

Either way has merit (SG will play out more like the real thing, but more games gives us a better picture of wonder dates), we could even try both.

I won't be at my PC until saturday so I can't really join in on anything before then. I would be willing to go with both then though, since I think the picture of when wonders are built is extremely important.

PS: I am currently using BUG. This is not compatible with HOF. But when I play Multi (against someone without BUG) my BUG is automatically disabled, it seems. Does this means I do not need to reinstall and just load HOF as a mod? And what if I want Ffh as a mod as well?

Question - are we all playing a test game individually, and reporting wonder dates etc, or are we going to do a "dry run" in SG mode?

I think a "dry run" would take far to much time. I got the following dates for wonders in some test games:

Stonehenge: T79 T55 T46

Great Wall: T73 T70 T85

Oracle: T110 T88 T97

Great Lighthouse: T101 T113 T105

In 1 game the Hanging Gardens was built in 1 A.D Other than that no other wonders were built before then.

Does this means I do not need to reinstall and just load HOF as a mod? And what if I want Ffh as a mod as well?

You can put as many mods as you like in your mod folder, and then load whichever one you want to play by clicking on advanced, and then load a mod from the main menu.

What MDY says is true. However, do not attempt to run HOF with BUG as a standard install - make BUG another mod to be loaded, not one that starts automatically.

I tried the latter, and it results in crashes when you try to look at the trade screen, and -1 million (yes, seriously it was actually a bigger number than that by a little) gold per turn upon reloading.

I told rolo:

"I think I might strike".

I think a "dry run" would take far to much time. I got the following dates for wonders in some test games:

Stonehenge: T79 T55 T46

Great Wall: T73 T70 T85

Oracle: T110 T88 T97

Great Lighthouse: T101 T113 T105

Looking right to me. Oracle seems to fall late imo. Looks as first game had no good wonder7relig monger?

What MDY says is true. However, do not attempt to run HOF with BUG as a standard install - make BUG another mod to be loaded, not one that starts automatically.

I tried the latter, and it results in crashes when you try to look at the trade screen, and -1 million (yes, seriously it was actually a bigger number than that by a little) gold per turn upon reloading.

I told rolo:

"I think I might strike".

Hmm. So if I have BUG as standard I need to do what??? :confused:
Reinstall the entire civ and mods?

No...I just had to uninstall BUG. I haven't tried reinstalling it as just a loadable mod, but I'd imagine doing that and then using either HOF or BUG by loading one or the other would work fine.

It wasn't necessary for me to reinstall civ at all so I doubt you'd need to either.

In thinking about this a little it's pretty clear to me that the VC will either be
conquest or dom (with a diplo-dom an outside possibility). Seems like we won't want to leave any wonders with the AI and usually they tend to build a wonder or two.

I did some very rough estimates of possible victory dates and the number of wonders likely at that date:

There are 62 total wonders, inc palace, shrines, nat wonders and corps. All count equally.

I broke the wonders down into 5 groups--
ancient (up to aesthetics)=10
medieval=12 (up to music)
renaissane=7 (up to edu/mt)
ind =10 (up to medicine/elec)
modern=15 all the rest.

A very rough guess of 5 speed conquest games:

very fast=1000AD finish
medium= 1500AD
slow =1750 AD
very slow =1850
milk =1900.

BC=115 turns
0-1000 =50 turns.
1000-1500 =50 turns
1500-1750=50 turns
1750-1850=50 turns?
1850-1900= 50 turns?

A ballpark guess for wonders:

the very fast game--10 ancient wonders+6 medieval+3 shrine=19/165 turns.

medium--10 ancient, 12 medieval, 5 ren, 5 shrine=32/215 turns.

slow--29 through ren, 8 ind+modern, 6 shrine =43/265 turns

very slow add 8 to slow =51/315 turns.

milk=get all 62 =62/365 turns.

Now these are very rough estimates but it seems pretty clear that a fastest finish is not the way to go. Something around 1 wonder/6 turns or maybe 1 wonder/5 should be what we're shooting for. Hard to imagine much better than 1 wonder/5 turns.

At monarch we will have to research most of these techs ourselves. Diplomacy will be important--if we can get a builder type to friendly we can get some tech in trade by aggressively gifting them stuff to help them keep up.

So I would think a standard early development strategy should be appropriate. Probably the big early decision we need to make is if we want to go for a wonder.

The problem with the above analysis is that on monarch, it may be very easy to go "speed conquest" until you get a very controlling amount of land pre 1k or at 1k ish, then switch into "milk" mode, blasting out wonders left and right...probably ending the domination by taking military beelines at the remaining non-player wonders.

I've got some things on my plate but I'm going to run at least 2-3 test games for this before the end of this coming monday. I'll note the wonder dates and try maybe 1 wonderspam game, one kind of standard, and one that runs for fast conquest followed up by gunning for wonders via tech + land lead.

A speed conquest would most likley leave our economy in a mess. While we would recover it would take a a long time. If we are not on the main landmass it could even be impossible.

Building most of the wonders ourselves would remove these problems, and open up the possibility of a quick/long diplo victory. I might try a test game as well.

Ungy did you include corporations in your analysis?

A speed conquest would most likley leave our economy in a mess. While we would recover it would take a a long time. If we are not on the main landmass it could even be impossible.

Building most of the wonders ourselves would remove these problems, and open up the possibility of a quick/long diplo victory. I might try a test game as well.

Ungy did you include corporations in your analysis?
yes but the analysis was very superficial.

I suspect we will have to build most of the later wonders ourselves.
I think ideally we'd leave a bunch of the useless middle ones for a partner--then absorb the partner at the end.

Okay I'll try and work around a bit with my mods and see i I can work this out. So far discussion seems good :)

Checking in.

I think the best way is a Permanent Alliance with an Industrious civ. We could boost that for eventual PA and in doing so avoid maintenance for a large empire.

What about Vassals? Will their wonders count?

National wonders? National wonders of PA partner/Vassals?

TDK

Checking in.

I think the best way is a Permanent Alliance with an Industrious civ. We could boost that for eventual PA and in doing so avoid maintenance for a large empire.

What about Vassals? Will their wonders count?

National wonders? National wonders of PA partner/Vassals?

TDK
are PA on?
I don't believe vassal wonders count (and also wouldn't be sure about PA partners-we could verify that in the wonder score of a game).

PA isn't on as far as I can tell in the game settings - so no marble throwing gambits for us.

Edit - unless it's our neighbor, who has a target on his/her chest ;).

I believe I read somewhere that PA is ON, but I'm not sure. Besides PA is @ Fascism, way too late?

PA`s are definatly off, and any wonders our vassels have will not count.

Okay, nice to know. I remember the ICS where we played on Deity and suddenly realized PAs were off when we had gotten Pacal to friendly :rolleyes:.

Anyway, I've removed my BUG and I should be able to run HOF so no troubles there :thumbsup:.

big and small means that naval combat will be very useful for conquering since the AI doesn't deal with it well... we can raze most cities for quick conquest if we want while just keeping the best ones and ones with wonders, since I don't think we will be going that far up the tech tree. So I'm not that worried about over expansion and economy. Although radio etc. has lots of wonders, so maybe we will win domination/conquest at that point?

We will also need Astronomy for conquest/domination... I don't know what techs need to be delayed to bulb astronomy... but maybe we should consider that.


Here's something I am curious about. Are all wonders equal when it comes to points? I am guessing no. We should figure out the point values to see how many points various tech routes give.

I didn`t keep any gold in reserve until I got the GP, but we might want to in case we get any random events.


There are not many random events early on that require gold, except for ones that save improvements from being destroyed (not worth stockpiling in itself). I think it would be safe to wait at least that long.

Game 1: I went with my Q choke here to get more settling space without actually capturing cities or killing units. Wonder times:

SH - Turn 41
GW - Turn 62
Oracle - 625 BC
Temple of Solomon - 250 BC
Colossus - 125 BC
ToA - 125 BC
GLH - 100 BC

Edit: All built by AI.

Game 2:

Henge: 1920 BC
GW: 1080 BC
Oracle: 625 BC
Mids: 500 BC
TOA: 75 BC
GLH: 540 AD (seriously)
Kong Miao: 680 AD
Chichen Itza: 680 AD
Hindu Shrine: 720 AD
Statue of Zeus: 780 AD
Angkor Wat: 840 AD
Colossus: 960 AD (and I built it arbitrarily)
Parthenon: 1000 AD
TGL: 1030 (this too - note that there was 0 marble on the entire map in this one)
Paya: 1100 AD
AP: 1110 AD
Notre Dame: 1130 AD
Dai Miao: 1140 AD
Hanging Gardens: 1140 AD
Sistine: 1160 AD
Sankore: 1180 AD
Minaret: 1210 AD

In this one I wasn't pressing for wonders - I wound up getting Colossus, Oracle, TGL, Confuc. Shrine, and Notre Dame

The interesting thing about this one is that I spawned in the island region, which is almost never isolated in B & S but allows for some really powerful early commerce, even without GLH. Hell, just settling an island city off the coast (2 after currency) doubles up your trade route income. I ran away in tech bigtime without even trying.

This forces me to change my recommendation to align with ungy - we're best off settling 8-12 cities peacefully (or choking if we must), then teching until probably renaissance. From there we can capture all the wonders we want, probably with a unit like cavalry which can just mow through lesser AIs. Then milk, IMO.

We can wait even longer but IMO the Cavalry will have enough odds and is 2 move - probably the fastest conquest possible until tanks/aircraft.

We can wait even longer but IMO the Cavalry will have enough odds and is 2 move - probably the fastest conquest possible until tanks/aircraft.

As our limitation will be the time needed to build the later wonders, not the speed of conquest, the extra movement point of the cavalry may not be that useful. Grenadiers/cannons may be a more effective combination for the first wars. Some AI`s are bound to get rifling before we can destroy them which would be a problem for cavalry, but not grenadiers.

This forces me to change my recommendation to align with ungy - we're best off settling 8-12 cities peacefully (or choking if we must), then teching until probably renaissance. From there we can capture all the wonders we want, probably with a unit like cavalry which can just mow through lesser AIs. Then milk, IMO.


This may be the best strategy if we build the key early wonders, but given our limited knowledge of the map it is difficult to be sure what our long term strategy should be. Maybe we should play the first turnset now?


It looks like animal husbandry-fishing and worker-warrior will get our capital going quickest.
We will also need Astronomy for conquest/domination... I don't know what techs need to be delayed to bulb astronomy... but maybe we should consider that.


Here's something I am curious about. Are all wonders equal when it comes to points? I am guessing no. We should figure out the point values to see how many points various tech routes give.
Sep 13, 2008 08:15 PM


I don`t think a beeline for astro is worth it in this situation. We would get more beakers by settling the GS, and we don`t need a super early astro as we will need to build several of the later wonders before winning. It would also mean avoiding Civil Service and mean we probably could not build several important early wonders e.g The Great Lighthouse.

All wonders/shrines/national wonders/corportions have the same score.

An important note on teching: Make sure not to obsolete a wonder not yet built (obviously)

I wasn't able to get the save to download properly--I thought I did the vista fix stuff:(.

I'm pretty convinced we want a balanced expansion as especially with the wonder dates TMIT got the AI just won't build them fast enough--and that was a peaceful game.

For this type of game I think the value of the GLH is just huge. From the looks of the map we may very well have domestic intercontinental trade routes very early, and the wonder pays and pays for a long time.

Anyway I think AH-fishing is a good start along with worker-warrior followed presumably by workboats.

I'm game for someone to take the first set and play a bit so we get a better lay of the land.

I can't play the next couple of days (not until Wednesday, probably Thur), so I suggest that TheMeInTeam plays the first round. We should be playing for:

Moderate expansion (not tanking the econ too much, but still grabbing land. Preferably towards AIs/Stone or Marble/Overseas),

The Great Lighthouse (simply overpowered on water maps), and hence

Early Masonry (for GLH, Quarries and other wonders).

As far as I can see this matches the start rather well as we start with Marble off our coast - two birds with one stone (perhaps even three - intercontinental trade, marble and Masonry?).

I agree with AH and Worker. Should we move the scout to the gold, and then settle on spot if nothing extraordinary shows up?

I agree the Great Lighthouse is warranted.

An important note on teching: Make sure not to obsolete a wonder not yet built (obviously)
Good point, we might be forced to construct a few bad wonders. That being said, I think we should avoid building any wonders that don't help us get to the last wonders faster.
As this is basically a tech race game, we need strong AI's for tech trading, trade routes etc.

What's the fastest way of finishing the tech tree? Moderate size empire and mostly cottage economy, or large empire using specialists(assuming Pyramids and the Great Library)?

TDK

Do "Projects" grant Wonder points?

TDK

I am thinking that the larger the empire the larger the output but only as long as the land is improved and the economy is not tanked asunder. Meaning you should never be able to run at 100%, but probably not permanently be under 50%.

Assuming we get Great Lighthouse, almost every city will be profitable in the long run.
Especially so if we get colossus.

Maintenance on Monarch isn't 'too' bad.

The ideal beaker rate will probably be around 70-30 (30 would be very temporary) throughout most of the game.

Projects do not grant wonder points.

I suspect that the best way up the tech tree will be to use a wonder based economy combined with specialists in our home land, supplemented by cottages in any city we capture. The Great Lighthouse could be very powerful, espesially if it can be combined with a CS slingshot and an early academy.

I think we should explore the map more before fixing on a long term strategy, failing to do this in the previous SGOTM meant we were never in with a chance of a medal-and we don`t want to repeat this mistake.

I can't play the next couple of days (not until Wednesday, probably Thur), so I suggest that TheMeInTeam plays the first round. We should be playing for:

Moderate expansion (not tanking the econ too much, but still grabbing land. Preferably towards AIs/Stone or Marble/Overseas),

The Great Lighthouse (simply overpowered on water maps), and hence

Early Masonry (for GLH, Quarries and other wonders).

As far as I can see this matches the start rather well as we start with Marble off our coast - two birds with one stone (perhaps even three - intercontinental trade, marble and Masonry?).

I don't mind kicking us off, but do keep in mind that it's my first SG - I don't want to hurt the team. If it IS going to be me, my thoughts on the opening are along the order of:

- Start warrior, tech fishing, grow to size 2.
- Once size 2, switch to a work boat and work the two forest hills @ 1 food 2 hammer

From there, we have the option of going AH and building a worker, or putting a 2nd work boat in queue while teching BW, then whipping a worker out ASAP off the two seafood tiles. We are expansive so a worker whip would be easy. I favor BW here for an early chop or two + whipping, but I saw others say AH. Thoughts/suggestions?

Either way, I like the early warrior on normal speed for extra exploration and possibly some fogbusting after that if it lives.

Of course settling a city or two towards the AI and sailing/masonry are early priorities here. If we don't have copper or horse (although we'll prolly get one) nearby we'll need archery too however, and probably early pottery since granaries help whips so much.

I like cottages way more than specialists but in the early turnset IMO we want to be working both seafood, the gold, and the cow, so specialists are probably relegated to city #2 or 3 (for the early scientists).

Also, what do you guys think about a (relatively) early settling on top of the marble? The capitol can probably share the fish and this means instant access to it for some wonders, not to mention an instant boost to all domestic trade routes (which, if we get 4 such cities with GLH, will dominate).

Hello,
I do not have much to add beyond what has been said. We should keep the `mids & HG in the same city to maximize the GE production.

I like these opening moves:

Move scout to gold. If there are new key resources visible, stop for comments, settle in place if not.
Animal Husbandry->Fishing->Masonry
worker->warrior or worker->WB Working the cow should be a top priority.

- Start warrior, tech fishing, grow to size 2.
- Once size 2, switch to a work boat and work the two forest hills @ 1 food 2 hammer


This opening would leave us massivly behind the worker-warrior-workboat opening. Fogbusting this early in the game is irrelevant and having an extra explorer a few turns earlier can`t make up for delaying the worker. I agree with llib_rm, the cow should be the first improved tile to be worked.

worker->warrior or worker->WB Working the cow should be a top priority.

We have to build the warrior before the workboat because we won`t have fishing when we finish the worker.

Animal Husbandry->Fishing->Masonry

Why would we want masonry after fishing? Getting to fishng takes 20 turns, that sounds like a good time to end the first turnset and pause for further discussion.

Also, what do you guys think about a (relatively) early settling on top of the marble? The capitol can probably share the fish and this means instant access to it for some wonders, not to mention an instant boost to all domestic trade routes (which, if we get 4 such cities with GLH, will dominate).

I don`t think we should. The only expensive early wonder which is sped up by marble is the Temple of Artemis, and we can put even that off for a long time if we decide to build it. It would help with the Oracle, but I doubt the extra hammers would make up for settling in a relativly poor position early. The first cities we build should ideally be production powerhouses to help expand our empire.

I like cottages way more than specialists but in the early turnset IMO we want to be working both seafood, the gold, and the cow, so specialists are probably relegated to city #2 or 3 (for the early scientists).

We can hire 2 scientists in the capital once it has grown to it`s happy cap, this could get us a very early scientist for an academy.

From there, we have the option of going AH and building a worker, or putting a 2nd work boat in queue while teching BW, then whipping a worker out ASAP off the two seafood tiles. We are expansive so a worker whip would be easy. I favor BW here for an early chop or two + whipping, but I saw others say AH. Thoughts/suggestions?

Either way, I like the early warrior on normal speed for extra exploration and possibly some fogbusting after that if it lives.

Of course settling a city or two towards the AI and sailing/masonry are early priorities here. If we don't have copper or horse (although we'll prolly get one) nearby we'll need archery too however, and probably early pottery since granaries help whips so much.


This is all map dependant. In general whips on normal speed are far less efficient than epic, espesially in capitals like this. It may not even be worth switching to slavery.

Why would we want masonry after fishing? Getting to fishng takes 20 turns, that sounds like a good time to end the first turnset and pause for further discussion.


Masonry opens up a number of key wonders and provides access to marble & stone. (I cannot imagine that a wonder game does not have stone near-by. Perhaps it is lurking over the hillside and is currently obscured.)

I agree, that fishing is a good end-point and the decision will fall to the next turn set.

Yikes. Looks like I still have a lot to learn. I humbly defer the opening turn set then.

This is all map dependant. In general whips on normal speed are far less efficient than epic, espesially in capitals like this. It may not even be worth switching to slavery.
Agree with the rest of the post but why is whipping much worse on normal than epic? Is it that it's harder to do 2 pop whips for units?
Now I agree that with such good tiles in the capital whipping is less good than normal but there's still a big food surplus and presumably we'll want to whip other cities.

Agree with the rest of the post but why is whipping much worse on normal than epic? Is it that it's harder to do 2 pop whips for units?
Now I agree that with such good tiles in the capital whipping is less good than normal but there's still a big food surplus and presumably we'll want to whip other cities.

You can still do 2 pop whips on normal, but it is a little harder to arrange. On normal things can be built so quickly that whipping doe not speed things up so much and slave revolts in the capital are a pain. Usually I find that it is more productive to let cities with a large food surplus grow to the happy cap quickly and then stagnate growth.

Masonry opens up a number of key wonders and provides access to marble & stone. (I cannot imagine that a wonder game does not have stone near-by. Perhaps it is lurking over the hillside and is currently obscured.)


I agree that we will want masonry, just not as our third tech. We would not want to build the pyramids/G Lighthouse until later in the game, and when we go for the lighthouse we would want sailing before masonry. The Great Wall/Stonehenge is entirely map dependant, and if we aren`t building either of these there is no hurry to hook up the stone.

It looks like we have at least 4 of the team for AH and worker first. TheMeInTeam, please take it and just upload if in doubt - that's why the team is here.

It looks like a lot of the other teams played just 8 or 9 turns, then stopped. We should look out for anything that could influence decision making, and upload if needed.

TDK

I could do the opening... I am pretty good with starts, although I'd take any advice or suggestions of course....

My suggested course of action:

Worker build first
Research fishing first

Start Bronze Working
Worker finishes

Worker starts on Gold Mine
City starts on fishing boat, works gold mine to build it

Bronze working finished
Worker starts chopping for 2nd worker

Get going on settler depending on surrounding land

Worker Start T1

Fishing T6
Start Work Boat T6
Bronzeworking started T6

Work Boat finishes T16

Bronze Working T21

Worker finishes T24
Worker builds gold mine
City starts worker
Size 2, City switches to worker

Gold Mine done turn 29
Worker chops a forest
Animal Husbandry done turn 30

Turn 33 second worker finishes
One builds cow, other chops, while city grows and works on warrior

Turn 35 Wheel discovered
T36 warrior done

...

How is this looking compared to other starts? More teching done through the process, perhaps?

This is slower than going for A.H. first because the cows is the most productive tile we have. If we go:

T13 Animal husbandry
T15 worker
T19 fishing
T20 warrior
T23 grow size 2 start working gold
T26 wheel
T28 workboat
T31 warrior grow size 3
T35 writing/bronze working

Ay T35 this gives us the same number of beakers, but we at size 3 and we have a higher production. At this point we don`t really need a second worker.

This is slower than going for A.H. first because the cows is the most productive tile we have. If we go:

T13 Animal husbandry
T15 worker
T19 fishing
T20 warrior
T23 grow size 2 start working gold
T26 wheel
T28 workboat
T31 warrior grow size 3
T35 writing/bronze working

Ay T35 this gives us the same number of beakers, but we at size 3 and we have a higher production. At this point we don`t really need a second worker.

It looks like a lot of the other teams played just 8 or 9 turns, then stopped. We should look out for anything that could influence decision making, and upload if needed.


I agree.

This is slower than going for A.H. first because the cows is the most productive tile we have. If we go:

T13 Animal husbandry
T15 worker
T19 fishing
T20 warrior
T23 grow size 2 start working gold
T26 wheel
T28 workboat
T31 warrior grow size 3
T35 writing/bronze working

Ay T35 this gives us the same number of beakers, but we at size 3 and we have a higher production. At this point we don`t really need a second worker.

this sounds like the best plan.
we should break not later than fishing or earlier if something comes up like others did.

this sounds like the best plan.
we should break not later than fishing or earlier if something comes up like others did.

I agree...

Yeah it's best for the team if we make decisions as one as much as possible, so a couple turns then stop is also my vote.

General question on whipping: For cities where I have sufficient food, I tend to whip constantly, ASAP as soon as the -1 whip :mad: wears off, typically for 2 pop. Well, during the early game anyway. Granted, we'd probably not want to kill off cow, gold, or seafood, but we could conceivably whip via granary even in the capitol without much expense to these tiles - and other cities aren't particularly likely to have that many good tiles in the BFC. How is whipping less efficient here?

I know MDY is a top notch player, but I picked up this whipping tendency off another deity player, so this whipping thing more a question than a statement of opinion or suggestion. I'd like to learn and improve along the way, especially if the discussion helps OSS take gold ;). I will say that my early game improved drastically via this whipping policy...it's hard to quantify the faster worker/settler speeds if they allow cities to work new improved tiles more rapidly or win sites. How do you judge this?!

While we can certainly run 2 scientists in the capitol IMO we could get 2 in another city almost as quickly. I think that mostly depends on what sites we'll get and when we've teched writing relative to that.

The breakdown of AH first makes it seem more appealing to me (kind of like being able to work irrigated corn first, I brain farted the food/hammers/tile ratio of a plains cow, which is actually damn impressive).

IMO still go BW before writing most likely. We'll want to know where copper is and the ability to whip OR chop is too helpful to pass up - gold will get us writing pretty quickly after that regardless.

Edit: I'm out of work at 6:00 today and after an interview I'll probably be home by 7 or 8 pm (USEast time). Do you guys want me to pick up the save, move the scout onto the gold, see what is available, if nothing special, settle and start MDY's tech path (AH/worker etc) for the first couple turns?

General question on whipping: For cities where I have sufficient food, I tend to whip constantly, ASAP as soon as the -1 whip wears off, typically for 2 pop. Well, during the early game anyway. Granted, we'd probably not want to kill off cow, gold, or seafood, but we could conceivably whip via granary even in the capitol without much expense to these tiles - and other cities aren't particularly likely to have that many good tiles in the BFC. How is whipping less efficient here?

I know MDY is a top notch player, but I picked up this whipping tendency off another deity player, so this whipping thing more a question than a statement of opinion or suggestion. I'd like to learn and improve along the way, especially if the discussion helps OSS take gold . I will say that my early game improved drastically via this whipping policy...it's hard to quantify the faster worker/settler speeds if they allow cities to work new improved tiles more rapidly or win sites. How do you judge this?!


Whipping is an extremly powerful tool, and I do whip heavily in most of my offline games - it may prove useful in this game, we can`t know for sure until we know more about the map. I just think that in this particular game other strategies might be stronger. I`ll try to show how you can quantify this later tonight.


Edit: I'm out of work at 6:00 today and after an interview I'll probably be home by 7 or 8 pm (USEast time). Do you guys want me to pick up the save, move the scout onto the gold, see what is available, if nothing special, settle and start MDY's tech path (AH/worker etc) for the first couple turns?


Please go ahead.

Fine with me as well.

double post

"
Ay T35 this gives us the same number of beakers, but we at size 3 and we have a higher production. At this point we don`t really need a second worker."


Okay, so I am completely agreed that cow is better to get first.



I think we should do a comparison over building a 2nd worker at size 2(skipping over the workboat temporarily and working cow and gold), versus growing to size 3 before starting the next worker.

With the current plan we are building 2 warriors, which are near to worthless hammers spent, in regards to growth, this early on. We don't need 3 units scouting. So by virtue of building 2 warriors that plan may be less efficient... it is best to spend AS MANY hammers as possible early on on things which improve growth.



My opinion is that it is hard for 2 workers to be too many early on. We are expansive so we get them cheaper, furthering the advantage of building one early. We have 10 forests to chop so there is absolutely no lack of 2 workers to do. Of course I think we should get BW straight away after AH, or before the 1st worker finishes the gold mine and cow. I think building 2 workers would get the workboat, and a subsequent settlers and warriors, out a good deal faster.

The 2 commerce gained from the workboat is nearly irrelevant because with a gold mine we basically get all early techs by the time we need them. And growth wise, the workboat will be less worthwhile than a 2nd early worker.

I will play that scenario this evening if no one else does, although right now I have to study fo an exam in 2 hours...

I'll start with it Levgre, but I'll stop long before we'll have to make a decision on 2nd worker vs warrior so no worries on discussing the merits of either at first.

Took longer for me to get home than expected. First couple turns will be posted shortly.

Ok scout on gold revealed as follows:

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/SGOTM%208%20-%20Sury/4kbcscoutongold0000.jpg

I didn't think this warranted a move for a number of reasons, so I settled in place, worker/AH. I also elected to move the scout back west to look for huts/rival AIs - we are out of land to the east until sailing. NW appeared to be jungle so I favored scout SW at first.

SW was pigs, desert, and more water...I decided to head NW for a slightly more clear picture before stopping.

That was short-lived. Our scout on the ivory tile got mauled by a panther :cry:. I've saved the game and stopped for advice because as a rookie I'm going to be sheepish for my first couple of turnsets :p.

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/SGOTM%208%20-%20Sury/scouteatenbypantheronturn70000.jpg

Thoughts, team? We are either IN the islands part of Big & Small, or at the edge of it. If we settle the marble down the road, it can work that fish tile, but as others have said that's not going to be useful until TGL or so prolly. I like the ivory a lot whether we use it for SoZ, elephants, or just :). We already have +2 :) available to us, which is a nice boost.

Suggestions from here? Improve the cow first, go fishing, warrior (to continue scouting) ----> workboat?

Did I mention I HATE BARB ANIMALS :mad:?

hmm my say is... well, improve cow first, of course.

Then if we are going "grow to 2, another worker" we do not need fishing yet. In that case you could go for bronzeworking next.

1 NE of the gold seems like perhaps the best potential spot for the next city. That utilizes all the coast tiles to the east. Maybe moai statues in the future, maybe not.

What that city could do short term is: stagnate at size 2 and work fish and gold, and build settlers and workers for us so the capital's growth isn't hampered, nor would the capital have to work a subpar hammer/food tile (gold, at only 3 hammers 0 food). With 4 base hammers (3 for gold mine, 1 for city) it would get 5 for all the workers it happened to build. It would also be completely safe from harm, being protected by our capital, so we won't even need to defend it for a long time.

We MIGHT just want to garrison the warrior on a jungle hill somewhere, to gain some xp. and to make sure it stays alive to garrison our capital once it needs one. Who knows, maybe get lucky and it will get to 10 xp for heroic epic. Then we could explore with an archer, which is basically guaranteed to survive. I'm not sure which would be more ideal though... sucks losing units to barbs early on, it's like a bad random event.

I would be against a second worker that early even had we not lost the scout. We have an easy 7 happy cap with 4 great tiles to work--we should prioritize getting those 4 tiles up and running. We can send out our first warrior when it's ready. Also on monarch the AI should be able to reach us if they're on our continent.

We need to know when the barbs spawn on monarch and when they break culture.

As for settling the sites we can see now--I don't think either of them are urgent .

So I'd be up for just pressing enter and going AH-fishing while building warrior.

I assume we work the cow tile once worker is built?

Then pause once fishing is in--we'll have some more info (like whether an AI showed up). Then we can decide tech (most likely wheel-bw) and presumably build at least one WB after the warrior. But at that point it'll be a little easier to plan our builds.

Alright, I'll get us to fishing (finish worker, start warrior) and report in again. I'll upload the file also since my next two days are very busy and I won't be able to move us much till the weekend at earliest - and I want to see some of our REAL talent in action :p.

I just did the bronzeworking 2nd worker strategy. I actually just built the settler before switching to the workboat, since I got 2 chops into the settler before I could start the workboat, so finishing it wasn't bad.

At turn 35, I have...

2 workers, 1 settler, 1 warrior, and 3/50 into the barracks, which could go into a warrior instead... (239-24 = 215 hammers, -24 for the 2 workers since both only take 48 hammers)

Mining, BW, AH, fishing, 89/179 of writing.


Compared to:
2 warriors, 1 worker, 1 workboat ( 108 hammers with this, is there anything else?)
wheel, AH, fishing, road, not sure what else? But few of these techs are really beneficial right now.

I notice the worker idles awhile when we go this route. Going BW straight away makes minimal idling.


So would we rather have 2 workers and 1 settler, or 2 warriors and 1 worker, and a bit more pop(4 vs. 3, if you consider 2 cities being 2+1).



I'll keep carrying out this experiment, as obviously the settler is paying short term for long term(not growing larger, to build settler and workers), and turn 35 is not where the most edge would be shown.



Former plan for reference....

"T13 Animal husbandry
T15 worker
T19 fishing
T20 warrior
T23 grow size 2 start working gold
T26 wheel
T28 workboat
T31 warrior grow size 3
T35 writing/bronze working"

Buddhism gets founded in 3680 BC. IIRC this is pretty early for monarch so somebody has mysticism and some tech power. We might even have Izzy in this one <3.

Hindu goes in 3360 BC - someone's 2nd tech, eh.

I stop just after fishing in 3240 BC, have the tech on the wheel but it can be switched to whatever. 1 turn to both growth and a warrior. IMO we just finish the worker and start a WB here. I'm going to upload the save now. Cow is improved/being worked and worker has started on the gold.

Whoops, one more important note: No AIs met yet. This leads me strongly to believe we are IN the islands part of the map, although it's possible we're just very, very far from the AI, or maybe an archer got smacked down by a bear. Probably not. We're probably not isolated as that's rare in B&S, but we may have an inordinate amount of expansion room/time, forcing the moderate expansion route. Maybe. I didn't upload any pictures because honestly the screen looks exactly the same except the tech being researched, the cow pasture, and a worker over the gold.

Edit: File link:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm8/One_Short_Straw_SG008_BC3240_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

I strongly think a 2nd worker may be better than a workboat, and start researching bronzeworking right away then fishing, instead of fishing first (teching fishing first makes the worker sits there doing nothing longer).


I would ask that we deliberate for a day or so, I will do a projection of where we are at turn 100 for both paths if needed... although it'd be nice if one of the supporters of the work boat first route would do that.

I can`t see how a second worker this early can speed things up. At the moment all it could do is chop, but we will not be short on production in the capital and we would be better off leaving the chops (except for mining the hills) until we can get the maths/CS bonuses. I agree that our 2nd city should ideally be a worker/settler pump. A worker could be it`s first build. I don`t think it is worth discussing it`s location until we have explored the island more, but a pigs/ivory city looks tempting.

I also think we are on a relativly small island, but are within galley reach of another civ. This is probably what caused the other teams to pause.

I got the following in a test game:

Build order in capital:

warrior
Workboat
Settler (1 chop)
warrior
library (1chop) hire 2 scientists
Workboat
Lighthouse
Academy T69
Great Lighthouse T74
Oracle T82 (1 chop)

research path:

T29 bronze working
T37 writing
T44 sailing
T47 wheel
T51 masonry
T61 maths
T64 mysticism
T67 meditation
T69 priesthood fire scientists
T81 code of laws
T82 civil service from oracle.

At this point I had 4 cities and 2 workers, but this will be hihlt map dependant.

I can`t see how a second worker this early can speed things up. At the moment all it could do is chop, but we will not be short on production in the capital and we would be better off leaving the chops (except for mining the hills) until we can get the maths/CS bonuses. I agree that our 2nd city should ideally be a worker/settler pump. A worker could be it`s first build. I don`t think it is worth discussing it`s location until we have explored the island more, but a pigs/ivory city looks tempting.

I also think we are on a relativly small island, but are within galley reach of another civ. This is probably what caused the other teams to pause.

I got the following in a test game:

Build order in capital:

warrior
Workboat
Settler (1 chop)
warrior
library (1chop) hire 2 scientists
Workboat
Lighthouse
Academy T69
Great Lighthouse T74
Oracle T82 (1 chop)

research path:

T29 bronze working
T37 writing
T44 sailing
T51 wheel
T61 masonry
T64 mysticism
T67 meditation
T69 priesthood fire scientists
T81 code of laws
T82 civil service from oracle.

At this point I had 4 cities and 2 workers, but this will be hihlt map dependant.
we need math also for CS.
that'll be around T90 then I think for oracle--kind of a close call on monarch I think (but worth a gamble)

We may need more units early for scouting/fogbusting.

I did have maths by T82, I just copied the list down wrong. The post has now been corrected.

If we need another warrior for fog busting we can always build 1 in our second city. Unless the island is much bigger than it looks this should not be a problem.

Ok scout on gold revealed as follows:

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/SGOTM%208%20-%20Sury/4kbcscoutongold0000.jpg

I didn't think this warranted a move for a number of reasons, so I settled in place, worker/AH.



Not to be a pain in the @ss, but why was 2E dismissed as a location to settle?

Not to be a pain in the @ss, but why was 2E dismissed as a location to settle?

I believe 2E would be too much seafood and too few forests. plus, 2E renders settling Marble Island worthless, and the marble is not linked up unless it is carried to a city by a road

I got the following in a test game:

Build order in capital:

warrior
Workboat
Settler (1 chop)
warrior
library (1chop) hire 2 scientists
Workboat (for other city)
Lighthouse
Academy T69
Great Lighthouse T74
Oracle T82 (1 chop)

research path:

T29 bronze working
T37 writing
T44 sailing
T47 wheel
T51 masonry
T61 maths
T64 mysticism
T67 meditation
T69 priesthood fire scientists
T81 code of laws
T82 civil service from oracle.

At this point I had 4 cities and 2 workers, but this will be hihlt map dependant.

For me...


Worker 2 T29
City 2 41
Library 42
T50 lighthouse
T52 Library city 2
T66 Academy
T69 The Great Lighthouse (4 chops, 3 in radius one at lesser)
T79 Oracle (no chops, did cut off 1 turn by slaving 2 pop)

T26 BW
T30 Fishing
T38 Writing
T59 Math (skipped wheel)
T61 Myst
T65 priesthood
T67 wheel (fire scientists)
T78 code of laws
T79 Civil Service




hmmm nearly no difference it seems? It may have come down to a bit of micromanagement. So each path might be equal?

At that point I had just the 2 cities (the other is size 3) and 1 more settler just coming out. And I had 2 warriors. I didn't have the fish in the capital worked, which may be another difference.

I believe 2E would be too much seafood and too few forests. plus, 2E renders settling Marble Island worthless, and the marble is not linked up unless it is carried to a city by a road

Indeed, not to mention a lost turn and grassland hill, which has a small but possible chance of having metal. It also gives up riverside/freshwater which may or may not matter to us. Although I opted to not move my scout up to see, there may be more seafood to the northeast that we'd not be able to work then also.

Anyway I might have screwed up by not waiting to consult here but I didn't see it. If it bothers you guys, I apologize!

Losing the warrior to the panther is just :cry: though :(.

For me...


Worker 2 T29
City 2 41
Library 42
T50 lighthouse
T52 Library city 2
T66 Academy
T69 The Great Lighthouse (4 chops, 3 in radius one at lesser)
T79 Oracle (no chops, did cut off 1 turn by slaving 2 pop)

T26 BW
T30 Fishing
T38 Writing
T59 Math (skipped wheel)
T61 Myst
T65 priesthood
T67 wheel (fire scientists)
T78 code of laws
T79 Civil Service




hmmm nearly no difference it seems? It may have come down to a bit of micromanagement. So each path might be equal?

At that point I had just the 2 cities (the other is size 3) and 1 more settler just coming out. And I had 2 warriors. I didn't have the fish in the capital worked, which may be another difference.

Have another question... did you only chop 3 times? In that case 1 worker is hands down better... I chopped all 11 forests (1 is outside the fat cross).

I'm not used to wonder rushes like this ;p I thought gold would give more than enough beakers, but since we are going for so many techs early any bit helps. Also, circumstances now show that the workers have little to no use after finishing their work in the capital. So although I almost always start with 2 workers, here it doesn't really help since we can't chop any in the 2nd city, and there is not much to improve in the 2nd city.






So if you had forests left over 1 worker is best I think, since I only got everything out 3 turns earlier about.


Now I'm gonna test 1 worker start, but BW before fishing...










Although, with your test game, you shouldn't have settled 4 cities unless you edited the world builder so the cities you built were like the ones we knew... they might have sped up (or slowed down) your research.

It appears there is 3 cities worthwhile building early on for us? Fish, and by the pig?

AH -> BW start.... 1 worker... tech order is basically the same/irrelevant for comparison otherwise.

Build order:

Worker
warrior, grow to size 2
Settler, with 2 chops (overflow goes into workboat)
workboat

2nd city settled turn 34, works gold so capital can work more food.

chopped 2nd workboat for 2nd city... 2nd city popped out another warrior before switching to library.

Slave library, finish it turn 42.
45, 3rd workboat to send towards 2nd fish, start lighthouse, whip 1 forest for it.
Worker goes into "pre-chop" mode to save forests for math.


Academy done turn 67.
settler in 2nd city done turn 65, in case of wanting a 3rd city.

GLH done turn 73.

Oracle + CS turn 80, BUT, this time I also got pottery and 2/3 of agriculture, so about 200 or so more beakers. And I only used 9 forests instead of 11 (1 left in big fat cross, 1 left outside).

And 2 settlers finished during this time in the 2nd city.



Now, again, it's only a slight difference... so maybe I just micromanaged a bit better. I think I will try the fishing first approach to see if I can beat my time here.

ah, i just read that themeinteam did research fishing already :p Not much difference though, maybe identical except for micromanaging.

Worker 2 T29
City 2 41
Library 42
T50 lighthouse
T52 Library city 2
T66 Academy
T69 The Great Lighthouse (4 chops, 3 in radius one at lesser)
T79 Oracle (no chops, did cut off 1 turn by slaving 2 pop)

T26 BW
T30 Fishing
T38 Writing
T59 Math (skipped wheel)
T61 Myst
T65 priesthood
T67 wheel (fire scientists)
T78 code of laws
T79 Civil Service



This may be due to differences in maintanance costs between cities, this means that a differnce of 1-2 turns probably dosn`t tell you much unless you know the location of the 2nd city. Whipping wonders is generally very inefficient, and slave revolts/anarchy could set us further back.


Oracle + CS turn 80, BUT, this time I also got pottery and 2/3 of agriculture, so about 200 or so more beakers. And I only used 9 forests instead of 11 (1 left in big fat cross, 1 left outside).


I think this involves chopping too many forests, we would get more hammers by chopping them after civil service. Despite chopping so many forests and using slavery this strategy looks like it only gets us marginally more production (may be less once the last whip is taken into account). I suspect this is because using the whip is counterproductive in these circumstances. As the research rate will not be a problem after CS and we will want to focus on expanding our empire this is a significant disadvantage.

I can get:

T20 warrior
T27 workboat
T29 warrior, bronze working
T37 writing, settler (1 chop)
T40 2nd city 2 maintanance
T41 library (1 chop) hire 1 scientist
T46 sailing
T47 workboat
T48 hire 2nd scientist
T49 wheel
T52 masonry, settler in 2nd city
T61 maths
T62 academy, fire scientists
T63 mysticism
T66 meditation
T68 priesthood
T72 galley in city 2 (1 chop)
T74 Great Lighthouse
T77 found city 1 S of marble
T78 Code of Laws
T80 agriculture, Civil Service, Oracle, settler in city 2.

This only uses 3 forests (and 1 in the second city), it also means we avoid the whip so we will be in a stronger position. A pigs/ivory location is assumed and the ivory is connected to the capitol allowing a size 7 city.

Great discussion.

I think on balance mdys approach is slightly better.

I propose we settle 3rd city on the marble, that would make room in the build queue for 1 or 2 workboats instead of warriors(cheaper Oracle with marble). I think workboats are a great choice for this kind of map for exploration and eventual settlement.

TDK

Great discussion.

I think on balance mdys approach is slightly better.

I propose we settle 3rd city on the marble, that would make room in the build queue for 1 or 2 workboats instead of warriors(cheaper Oracle with marble). I think workboats are a great choice for this kind of map for exploration and eventual settlement.

TDK

I agree here, especially given the jungle boundaries early and our tendency towards GLH. Any off-continent city guarantees us a 2 commerce trade route in every city...but we will have to account for barb galleys regardless.

I'd also like to save forests until post-math, other than the 3 mdy is highlighting. The production hit from his path is minimal, and every forest is worth 10 more hammers after math and that may matter.

I made a new testgame:
I got CS in turn 78 by going Writing first, I don't know how it compares to your tests.

It can be done 2 turns faster as I needlessly revolted to slavery and made some mm mistakes due to fast play.

Only 2 forests chopped.

TDK

I would like to quote AlanH. Please name saves very obviously so they do not get confused. Please name every test save TEST somewhere, and the real game should be called One Short Straw Save or summat like that...

Going writing first has to get the nessesary techs done faster but it will limit worker turns and hence our production (which was the limiting factor in my test). From the save it looks like TDK solved this problem by building the settler and/or a galley for the 3rd city in the capital, and used the +100% from the marble to build the Oracle in the 2nd city.

A potential disadvantage of this approach is that we lose a source of Gprophet source in the capital which we will need for shrines.

It also means that the island city loses 25% of it`s production. That island is a potential Maori Statues location, but it does take a long time to build.

Going writing first has to get the nessesary techs done faster but it will limit worker turns and hence our production (which was the limiting factor in my test). From the save it looks like TDK solved this problem by building the settler and/or a galley for the 3rd city in the capital, and used the +100% from the marble to build the Oracle in the 2nd city.

A potential disadvantage of this approach is that we lose a source of Gprophet source in the capital which we will need for shrines.

It also means that the island city loses 25% of it`s production. That island is a potential Maori Statues location, but it does take a long time to build.



Hmm maybe it is still worth it though? I don't know if I am concerned abmout Maoi statues at all, because it is likely we will have many good potential city spots for Maoi. I often feel that island cities are not the best choice for Maoi, because they have so little initial production so it takes longer to get the Maoi going. I like building it in cities with 2 hills or so, so it can be a source of earlier production(sometimes I mix Maoi and Heroic Epic for a military city). The amount of water tiles workable is often limited by happiness/health, anyways, so 18 water tiles isn't much better than 14, for example.



As for the 2nd city building the Oracle, IF Confucianism is founded in the 2nd city, we could get the shrine there too, and the 2nd city would become a nice source of great prophets(or we could just work priests there). Specialization is often the key for getting the great people you desire. I think it will be hard to keep specializing the capital for GPP, but perhaps we could specialize the 2nd city. We are already going to be getting Great Merchant points in the 1st city as it is.

I'm still struggling to get this to work with vista but a few thoughts:

We do need a few units for scouting.
I don't think we should underestimate the value of learning about the map.
Maybe we could get a wb to scout from city 2?

I wouldn't worry about having exactly the right GP at the right time.
They're all useful (even a single artist is OK in BTS), and with a wonderspam game you're better off maximizing your total I think rather than having more than 2 cities generating.

As for the 2nd city building the Oracle, IF Confucianism is founded in the 2nd city, we could get the shrine there too, and the 2nd city would become a nice source of great prophets(or we could just work priests there). Specialization is often the key for getting the great people you desire. I think it will be hard to keep specializing the capital for GPP, but perhaps we could specialize the 2nd city. We are already going to be getting Great Merchant points in the 1st city as it is.Good point about specializing the 2nd city for great prophets, I hadn't thought of that, will it have enough food? Probably, if we just need 1 or 2.

Settling on the marble is quite good IMO, because we start of with an extra hammer. As the map looks now, getting that extra fish to the north is nice as well, but of course there might be seafood to the south as well.

TDK

I wouldn't worry about having exactly the right GP at the right time.
They're all useful (even a single artist is OK in BTS), and with a wonderspam game you're better off maximizing your total I think rather than having more than 2 cities generating.

If you can plan it right you can get the most out of 2-3 great person cities I believe... from reading a strategy article on the topic. Part of the reason is each city has some inability of generating more great person points at certain points... population limits, lack of available specialists, lack of food surplus in that city radius, so on.

So if you want more great people, it is better to have 2-3 cities. The time you 'don't' want more cities is when the other cities move too fast and the GP rate goes up too quick... so the GP points in cities 2 and 3 never get redeemed into a great person.


But you do have to plan it quite well(which also means a city layout suited for it). I'll go back and find that article again.

If you can plan it right you can get the most out of 2-3 great person cities I believe... from reading a strategy article on the topic. Part of the reason is each city has some inability of generating more great person points at certain points... population limits, lack of available specialists, lack of food surplus in that city radius, so on.

So if you want more great people, it is better to have 2-3 cities. The time you 'don't' want more cities is when the other cities move too fast and the GP rate goes up too quick... so the GP points in cities 2 and 3 never get redeemed into a great person.



When you are getting most of your GP points from wonders it is better to have as many as possible in one city. I don`t think a priest farm could possibly produce enough prophets without severly limiting the future wonders we can build.

A couple of alternatives it might be worth thinking about:

Building city 2 1S of the marble and hooking it up with the worker. This might allow us to get both wonders in the capital.

Alternativly it might be possible to found city 3 directly on the marble in time to speed up the Oracle with improved micromanagement.

I tested it again. Managed to get it in T75, notice the 3rd city at size 3(WB 2 turns) but the capital at size 7.
We can get a settler out in 3 turns with one chop, to get those last trade routes up and running. Settling the next city should net us 6 trade routes, so we should try and build the next city overseas.

I'm not sure I think we really need a shrine anytime soon. We can always capture Angkor Wat or another shrine and pop some there.

TDK

Going writing first is clearly going to get us to CS quickest. If we went this path it would be better to stagnate the third city at size 2 until we get COL so the holy city becomes the second city. I don`t think we can rely on capturing a shrine/angor wat to generate enough priests as these may come to late. We can probably deal with this either by turning city 2 into a GP farm by building the shwdegan paya and running a priest from a temple (later 3 from a shrine). Alternativly we could just build a lot of GP wonders in the capital and hope we get enough GP`s.

TDK it looks like the jungle tile is on a hill in the test game but not in the SGOTM. Will this effect anything important?


edit: Another possibility is to build both wonders in the capital, but delay the GL until after CS. This would that we would have a good chance at getting a prophet next.

TDK it looks like the jungle tile is on a hill in the test game but not in the SGOTM. Will this effect anything important?No, I don't believe so.


edit: Another possibility is to build both wonders in the capital, but delay the GL until after CS. This would that we would have a good chance at getting a prophet next.We could do that, might even speed up the Oracle by a few turns because of earlier Academy.

I any case I think we should start, going Writing and building WB(for Clam), WB(for Fish), Library. Then we discuss again.

Who wants to go next?

Another possibility is to build both wonders in the capital, but delay the GL until after CS. This would that we would have a good chance at getting a prophet next.
I don't think we want to risk losing the GL--IMHO that wonder is just too huge. I like the idea of the wonderspam capital--production is good. While we can't say for sure we'll get a prophet there, if we have oracle we rate to pop one sooner or later. If need be I think we can generate a second pretty easily later. Ideally we should let the AI found all religions but conf as that makes for more chance they'll build shrines for us.

I any case I think we should start, going Writing and building WB(for Clam), WB(for Fish), Library. Then we discuss again.

Who wants to go next?

If you know how to micromange the next turn set , maybe it would be best if you took it?

I don't think we want to risk losing the GL--IMHO that wonder is just too huge. I like the idea of the wonderspam capital--production is good. While we can't say for sure we'll get a prophet there, if we have oracle we rate to pop one sooner or later. If need be I think we can generate a second pretty easily later. Ideally we should let the AI found all religions but conf as that makes for more chance they'll build shrines for us.

In my test games the GL is never built before turn 100. I was always able to get it before then even when the CS slingshot was done in T84 and the lighthouse hadn`t even been started by then, so we should have no problems doing it with a T75 slingshot. This would also enable us to divert some early production into fogbusters/scouts which we will probably need.

I agree about the religions.

I played.

T20: WB

T25: See wounded Panther to the West and kill it for 1 xp. This means we are not alone.
There is a lion to the south where we are building our second city, I decide to chance a forest defense battle and we win - now at 2xp. Warrior gets back to capital in time to police our unruly population.

Great new! We have Copper to the south where I already constructed a mine, this means we have more room in the capitals build queue.

T39: Stonehenge IAFAL.

T44: Settler in capital. STOP.

We are 2 turns from Sailing:
-We can produce a WB in 3 turns and then start the Lighthouse. A WB could be sent north to hopefully meet the other civ we know is there, or south to scout the islands and then west.
-We can produce a Warrior in 2 turns(we assign the citizen working the Copper as a scientist for 1 turn), then start the Lighthouse 1 turn earlier with good overflow. I think this is the better approach because it speeds up our general development and gives us another Warrior that can also be used for defense.

We are a bit behind on Great Person program due to the Copper discovery, but this is not a problem IMO, as we want more production than research if we are building both wonders in the capital.

My notes on the map may not be intirely correct, as we might want to build the Galley in the capital and the Settler in our new city.
It would be something like:
Capital: Warrior(t+2), size 6(t+5, assign both scientists, no Clam), Lighthouse(t+7), Galley(t+12, we have room for a bit of exploration here...), Academy(t+22), Great Lighthouse(t+28), Oracle(t+33).
2nd city(t+3): Settler(1 chop t+20)...

Looks pretty neat to me. We should check if the tech lineup will hold up to this build queue, but I don't have time for this right now...

TDK

See wounded Panther to the West and kill it for 1 xp. This means we are not alone.


Are you sure this is not the panther that killed our scout?

We can produce a Warrior in 2 turns(we assign the citizen working the Copper as a scientist for 1 turn), then start the Lighthouse 1 turn earlier with good overflow. I think this is the better approach because it speeds up our general development and gives us another Warrior that can also be used for defense.



I think this sound best. We will need at least 1 more warrior for fogbusting.

The tech lineup will hold just fine with the above build queue, if we are careful to time everything. We can finish in T75, so the above was actually slightly too pessimistic.

Tech:
I went Sailing, Mysticism, Masonry, Mathematics, Meditation, Priesthood, CoL.

Edit: And this was with just one chop for the 2nd settler and 1 for the Great Lighthouse.

Are you sure this is not the panther that killed our scout?
Right, probably was.

TDK

can you post a couple screenshots as you go? Or maybe in cases like this, just when you finish your round? thnx

(hmm or just the save)

Looks fine. No save attached though.

The save is available on the SGOTM progress and results page.

What do you guys mean, the test game? It pretty much looks like the last one, except both wonders are in the capital. I don't have access to the game now, but I can upload it tomorrow if needed.
I didn't upload screen shots from my turn set because it was quite uneventful.

Who wants to go next?

TDK

Sorry guys I've been really jammed and haven't had time to play around with my comp to get this working.

SH built turn 39 on monarch? That seems very early to me. I don't want to propose an alternative, as the wonder play seems like a good gamble but it seems we are at risk here.

T39 is very early for stonehenge, so it was probably built by an industrious civ with stone. Unless there is also one with marble out there T75 should be fine for the Oracle (the earliest in my test games was T88). The Great Lighthouse should not be at risk either, but if we do decide to go for the pyramids or another stone based wonder we will have to be quicker than usual.

Does the AI have early enough access to masonry for stone to be a major factor in getting SH? I'd say it isn't necessarily true that they have it, although I wouldn't want to leave it to chance.

Someone like Inca or other civs that are industrious or start with access to mysticism could get SH pretty early even w/o stone.

Agree that mids might be a reach here, while if we get oracle T 75 we're probably good for it.

In my games where GLH goes was pretty erratic - sometimes the AD's, sometimes around 1000 BC. I think it depends heavily on the presence of coastal AI capitols and whether they're industrious. IMO if we really want it we don't want to screw around too much getting it - and we probably want it from what I can tell with our start...the trade route income will be amazing very early.

I believe the obvious wonderwhore is Ramesses. He loves to build wonders, often aims for Masonry and IIRC, starts with Mysti.

While I agree it would hurt to miss the Mids, I don't see any way for us to formulate a better plan than the one we have now - the Oracle and the Great Lighthouse are must haves in my opinion.

I can play more if nobody else wants to take it. Remember we have a long game ahead of us, we should continue the game.

Here is the last test save. For some reason Conf was founded in the island city even when it was the smaller one. Maybe because I ran a food deficit in the bigger city last turn.

TDK

I'll take a look @ the save once I'm off work my work/school portion of the week.

Although city size affects the chances of a religion founded, it's still a chance where it goes. Probably just got a bad draw.

While I agree it would hurt to miss the Mids, I don't see any way for us to formulate a better plan than the one we have now - the Oracle and the Great Lighthouse are must haves in my opinion.

I can play more if nobody else wants to take it. Remember we have a long game ahead of us, we should continue the game.

Here is the last test save. For some reason Conf was founded in the island city even when it was the smaller one. Maybe because I ran a food deficit in the bigger city last turn.

TDK
I agree--I think the 'mids is unlikely here.

I thought the religion thing was somewhat random, with the last founded being more likely and the capital almost impossible?

agree--I think the 'mids is unlikely here.

I think we will still be able o get the pyramids if we want. In all my test games it still had not been built by 1 A.D. If there is an industrious civ with stone it just means we can`t delay it as long as we otherwise could.

I thought the religion thing was somewhat random, with the last founded being more likely and the capital almost impossible?

The formula is :N= (10 +rand (10) +1*pop)/(1+Number of religions in city) /8 if capital.

The religion is founded in whichever city N is highest in. This means that it is somewhat random, but the larger cities have a bigger chance of being the holy city.

I can play more if nobody else wants to take it. Remember we have a long game ahead of us, we should continue the game.


I don`t mind if you play a few more turns.

Neither do I. Seems you did fine first time around, why not continue ? ;)

Ok, I played some more and everything is working out according to plan. I saved us up some cash to burn through now that we have an Academy.

Nothing much else to report.
We met the Zulu and have an OB agreement with him which will allow us to use the full power of the Great Lighthouse at only 3 cities.
The Kashi Visvanath was built in T64 so that's good news too. No other wonders completed...

Edit: I delayed building the 3rd city for a turn to scout south with the boat, there is a 3rd Fish there we can use. I wanted to be sure that we are building the 3rd city on Marble. If we don't want a religion there we might as well build a settler, working the improved Fish tile.

TDK

Please post some screenies of the lay of the land. Does Shaka know anyone else (EP spending)?

Edit: I delayed building the 3rd city for a turn to scout south with the boat, there is a 3rd Fish there we can use. I wanted to be sure that we are building the 3rd city on Marble. If we don't want a religion there we might as well build a settler, working the improved Fish tile.



As we are building the Oracle in the capital the location of the holy city is less important. If we built another city where would we build it? Maybe a workboat would be more useful.

It is probably only a matter of time before Shaka declares war on us, so I suggest launching a preemptive strike. Our 2nd city looks like a reasonable production city, so it maybe worth building a barracks there after the warrior, then maybe another galley/workboat/axeman(if we hook up the copper first)? If we have any spare production in the capital before CS we could build a barracks there as well. Balancing wonder and military production in the capital is clearly going to be a key decision after CS.

It looks like the Kashi Visvanath was built by a philosophical leader, so we are only dealing with a civ with stone. As the Great Wall hasn`t been built yet there may well be no industrious civs in the game.

edit: It must be Gandi because he is the only one which starts with mysticism.

Does Shaka know anyone else (EP spending)?

It looks like Shaka mat someone around 2080B.C. when did we make contact?

It is probably only a matter of time before Shaka declares war on us, so I suggest launching a preemptive strike.

Well it's not like it would be hard in the least to repulse any attack by him. No reason to rush out an attack.

Well it's not like it would be hard in the least to repulse any attack by him. No reason to rush out an attack.

If he is on a different continent that has other AIs, his chances of attacking us aren't spectacular, and galley raids from the AI have got to be some of the most pitiful efforts in all of Civ IV. I don't think we need to worry about shaka too much, especially if he has other targets he hates more. The EP shows he met someone else?

I guess it wouldn't matter either way. Iso shaka won't tech well, it'll be a while before his attacks become too threatening. We just can't leave coastal cities with lone warriors defending near him :rolleyes:.

Well it's not like it would be hard in the least to repulse any attack by him. No reason to rush out an attack.

If he is on a different continent that has other AIs, his chances of attacking us aren't spectacular, and galley raids from the AI have got to be some of the most pitiful efforts in all of Civ IV. I don't think we need to worry about shaka too much, especially if he has other targets he hates more. The EP shows he met someone else?


But Shaka is on our continent and that civ he met may have been us. Even if he has met someone else the chances of him attacking us are very high because of our low power rating. If we didn`t attack him we would still have to invest a lot in a defensive force, it is far more effective to destroy him relativly quickly.

If he is on a different continent that has other AIs, his chances of attacking us aren't spectacular, and galley raids from the AI have got to be some of the most pitiful efforts in all of Civ IV. I don't think we need to worry about shaka too much, especially if he has other targets he hates more. The EP shows he met someone else?
Please post some screenies of the lay of the land. Does Shaka know anyone else (EP spending)? I'm not sure about the EP spending, how can one see if he met another civ?

Your above comments make it sound like you don't look at the game before posting. Do you guys know that every player is allowed to load up the latest save as long as one doesn't change anything?

TDK

Yes I know but I am only at a computer with civ every second week so I'll easily get lost without some assistance those weeks.

The way you see if he has met another civ is to see if he has less EP towards us than we have towards him (because, per automation, the AI splits its EP even (all weights=0) in earlygame), so if he has met someone else, he would be spending 2 EP on us and 2 on the other civ while we spend 4 on him because hes the only one we know.

Actually he has more EP on us than we do, but he raised his espionage slider around 2080 B.C. so he must have met at least 1 civ by then

I'm not sure about the EP spending, how can one see if he met another civ?

Your above comments make it sound like you don't look at the game before posting. Do you guys know that every player is allowed to load up the latest save as long as one doesn't change anything?

TDK

I...thought that was the case but wasn't sure. It's my first SG and time using HoF :blush:. I didn't want to do anything that would get us DQ'd.

Either way, I've been going with work/school the past few days but am off this weekend, so now that I know for *sure* that I can look at it, I will.

The way you see if he has met another civ is to see if he has less EP towards us than we have towards him (because, per automation, the AI splits its EP even (all weights=0) in earlygame), so if he has met someone else, he would be spending 2 EP on us and 2 on the other civ while we spend 4 on him because hes the only one we know.

Thanks, I did not know this...

If we didn`t attack him we would still have to invest a lot in a defensive force, it is far more effective to destroy him relativly quickly.

I have not looked at the save, but I generally agree with this strategy. Take Shaka out first and quickly so we can concentrate on infrastructure/research.

Edit:
I looked at the save. Nice job folks!

The CS slingshot could come in around T76. It seems the limiting factor is researching CoL.

I think we need another worker. We need to get the Cu connected, marble quarried (unless we are settling on...), and Hari (#2) would benefit with a farm. Can we squeeze a worker between the GL & Oracle build queue?

The terrain makes it look like taking on shaka would be somewhat time-consuming from a marching-towards-capitol standpoint. Is our intent here to keep any of these cities, or just burn them all except the capitol?

We're in excellent shape to get wonders but in sad shape for an axe rush (an axe rush would typically have 6+ axes already made by now). I'm one of the more aggressive players on this forum, happily spamming cities and units while sagging into a tech hole in many games. It's monarch so we can probably kill him in spite of a late start (Shaka's not exactly a prime candidate for 1 AD feudalism), but is it worth what we're paying should we do it?

I think the answer depends on his land. The less land he can expand into, the less inclined I'd be to axe rush him. If he's got a lot of room he's far too dangerous to leave alone. Shaka attacking from 4-5 cities is pretty pitiful, even if his ibuildunitprob is 40. We could shred anything he'd make with minimal force.

Bit of a tough call...I actually vote no-go on the axe rush since we're *really* behind on it and at least to me it seems also short on workers. Where are we going to get the hammers to expand on top of this and keep our tech rate up w/o losing wonders?

We're in excellent shape to get wonders but in sad shape for an axe rush (an axe rush would typically have 6+ axes already made by now). I'm one of the more aggressive players on this forum, happily spamming cities and units while sagging into a tech hole in many games. It's monarch so we can probably kill him in spite of a late start (Shaka's not exactly a prime candidate for 1 AD feudalism), but is it worth what we're paying should we do it?



This is not a problem. CS + chopping will allow us to build up an army very quickly, and we would be very close to construction so our attack could be supported by cats/elephants. Other than stonehenge/GWall/GLighthouse and Oracle the only wonder the AI managed to build by 1 A.D. is the hanging gardens in 1 test game. We can easily afford to rush Shaka and get all the important wonders- Thsi will leave us in a much stronger position, bothe economicly and militarily than just concentrating on wonders. The logistics look perfectly reasonable, espesially if we expand our road network.

It would be worth keeping all his cities. The Great Lighthouse means that they will all make a profit. Another worker would be useful soon, but we can quickly get one built in our third city.

Shaka attacking from 4-5 cities is pretty pitiful, even if his ibuildunitprob is 40. We could shred anything he'd make with minimal force.


In time he could still build up a big force which would require a significant number of units to defend ourselves against. Why accept this drain on our resources when we can convert it into an advantage by destroying Shaka.

edit: A plan:

capital: Great Lighthouse-Oracle. The worker can hook up the copper once the forest is chopped.

2nd city: warrior-barracks-axe

3rd city: worker-workboat

I suggest pausing after we have revolted to bureacracy. Once we have scouted Shakas capital we will know how difficult he will be to take out.

Hmm. I have to agree that our main focus here should be the wonders and not axerushing. Otoh, Shaka can be PITA, even on Monarch diff, if he has enough land. I really don't know. I'll take a good look at the save some time tomorrow and try to get an idea of what to do from then.

I think that we are in danger of being sidetracked by shiny wonders, and missing what is really important to win this SGOTM. We should be trying to maximize the number of wonders per turn played. To do this we do not have to build all of them ourselves as we can capture them from the AI. The limiting factor will be our economy as that will determine how far into the tech tree we get before the extra no of turns needed to research the techs for wonders outways the benefit of the extra wonder. We therefore only really need to build wonders that will improve our economy, or will come too late for an AI to build ( building wonders for extra GP points, espesially Gprophets is useful, but not essential).

A axe/cat/elephant rush and building a lot of wonders are not mutually exclusive strategies. We can destroy Shaka, build all the important early wonders (and a few of the less important ones). We might (or might not) miss out on a minor wonder by attacking Shaka, but if the AI builds something like the Statue of Zeus then it really does not matter - We can capture it later and it saves us the hammers.

Capturing Shaka`s cities early will deliver a big boost to our economy, increasing our wonders per turn score significantly. Also if his capital is a decent production centre we would not have to use our capital to build units in future wars, so it can focus on wonders/infastructure.

I agree in getting rid of shaka post-construction/HBR. War elephants are a scary, dominating force pre-longbows and viable even then. IMO that's probably the ideal time/way to take him out.

We have to be careful though is all I'm saying. His land is very poorly developed ATM and to be honest we're low enough on workers that our own land probably needs more. Those cities are also distant so if they're not developed keeping them could slow our tech pace considerably. Normally I'd want to keep most of the cities I take but if it's jungle and some more jungle without great tiles to work at first I might suggest razing at least 1-2 of his cities.

Either way I say we get rid of him, it's just a question of timing. He's not gonna build any wonders for us though, so no point in delaying too much...just enough to make sure capturing/keeping the cities helps as much as possible perhaps.

I'm still cought up in RL and haven't been able to get the game working with vista but I would say it's definately better to remove Shaka than build second tier wonders. As MDY points out, with the GLH we can afford it.

At this point the game is not about wonder count, it's about getting maximum economic expansion. Building key wonders is part of that, taking Shaka's land is as well.

We will have to build up an army to counter Shaka no matter what, so we might as well go on the offense. War elephants will probably be countered by Shakas Impies, so they might not be ideal in this situation.

This is a game of economy and reaching the end of the tech tree first, so we should only build wonders that help us achieve that aim. Right now that's the Pyramids and Great Library IMO. We should also look to the Temple of Artemis - it goes very well with the Great Lighthouse and helps us pop Prophets.

TDK

I think taking out Shaka with Ellies and (lots of) Catties is the most viable solution. I will not be able to pick up a save before wednesday, by the way.

I think we should make it a point to quickly settle any good city spots. From what I can tell, there is only 1 more for now, north by the cow and clam. Later we'll be able to get some pretty good slow-growing cottage cities by the lake, although that is probably after the shaka invasion... it takes time to cut down all that jungle.

What should our tech path be after civil service?
Metal Casting is tempting for the colossus with copper... we should make sure we get that before anyone else.
Aesthetics -> Literature also, for great library and Parthenon. Hariharalaya could probably build one of the wonders with its pig and ivory, and plenty of hills avaiable.


I'm not sure if we need the pyramids, although we should get it if it's not a big hassle. But I think other wonders would be more cost-effective. We do not have a great amount of luxury resources so our growth could be limited with representation, while we have a good amount of health resources and are also expansive.
Right now it looks like the happy cap would be 10 base with no more happiness in sight, except for buildings.

What should our tech path be after civil service?
Metal Casting is tempting for the colossus with copper... we should make sure we get that before anyone else.
Aesthetics -> Literature also, for great library and Parthenon. Hariharalaya could probably build one of the wonders with its pig and ivory, and plenty of hills avaiable.


I was thinking contruction-horseback riding to unlock cats/elephants. The AI tends to take a very long time to get the collosus so we can easily afford to delay it (we would not have the spare production to build it anyway).

I don`t think the happy cap will be a problem with representation. A forge/market/religion/temple will raise it to 14, and we will want all of these at some point anyway. We may also capture a happy resource from Shaka, or find one on an island.

ah, forgot we were getting Confucianism. With that we should be fine

So I guess we finish the Warrior and start a Barracks in 2nd city as we need some forces for Shaka no matter what. We settle 3rd city on Marble.
We should play until we reach Oracle and CS and then revolt to Representation and Slavery before uploading the game. We can then more realistically assess what we want to do with our boom economy.

I can do that tomorrow if no one else takes it before then, in the interest of moving the game forward.

TDK

Do we really need slavery in these circumstances? What were you planning on building in the third city?

Do we really need slavery in these circumstances? What were you planning on building in the third city?

Grrrrrrrrr, this is why I really wish we'd ALL post pictures of what we did in our updates. I'm at work with no way to look @ the save again, and I'd like to have a look at our cities. I don't remember 100% across multiple days...!

Grrrrrrrrr, this is why I really wish we'd ALL post pictures of what we did in our updates.
yes some pics would be nice as I haven't been able to get the HOF mod working.

I have attatched a few screenshots. I was thinking of b uilding a worker in the third city first. We are working a lot of unimproved tiles, and we will need it for chopping after CS.

Do we really need slavery in these circumstances? What were you planning on building in the third city?Slavery might be helpful in the 3rd city with 2-3 fish. If it won't take an extra turn to revolt, why not Slavery? Is there another civic you would rather want? Caste System?

I prefer the Worker in the 3rd city if we are not revolting to Slavery. If we revolt to Slavery, I prefer a workboat first.

TDK

Slavery might be helpful in the 3rd city with 2-3 fish. If it won't take an extra turn to revolt, why not Slavery?

Slave revolts in the capital. If the 3rd city is to be used mainly as a settler/worker pump then slavery won`t be much help anyway.

Slave revolts in the capital. If the 3rd city is to be used mainly as a settler/worker pump then slavery won`t be much help anyway. I'm not to much into BTS, so I don't know about slave revolts. What is it? I agree Slavery is not to useful for us, I just wanted it if it was free.

Do we want Caste System? Something else?

TDK

I'm not to much into BTS, so I don't know about slave revolts. What is it? I agree Slavery is not to useful for us, I just wanted it if it was free.

Do we want Caste System? Something else?

TDK

Slave revolts are attached to the garbage random events system in BTS which I hate and almost always disable. Any time you're in slavery with over x pop in ANY city (not just the capitol, though IIRC capitol is more likely), there's a chance of a slave revolt. You get 3 options:

1. Put it down (- 2 pop and some whip :mad: basically)
2. Pay to restore order (assuming you have gold, you lose 1 pop and get 1 turn of revolt)
3. Do nothing (city has a random chance of stopping the revolt, but it may go on 5 turns or more too).

As an event it has the potential to really damage you, I lost a game as a direct result of it once (failed axe rush that would have succeeded with 1 more axe).

The worst part of the events, is that if somebody techs archery early on this or any other map with that garbage left on there's a chance they're instant wooden spoons - the second you have archery you are considered to have the "counter" tech for archers. You can have 4 barb archers spawn right at your borders and head straight for the capitol, attacking it without pillaging or anything else en route. Sound fun? Sound like something we could defend against, even right now? We could if we were in slavery...but OH WAIT, then we'd have slave revolts.

This is all aside from the basic nuisances offered up like forest fires causing :mad: or a forge burning down/locusts taking pastures down. Losing a barracks when prepping a rush is pretty cool too.

Random events are not balanced, IMO players should not suffer from playing optimally then getting screwed arbitrarily. We get plenty of that straight from the normal battle RNG, but at least that's something possible to plan for :rolleyes:.

I guess I'm kind of vocal about this, but I'm with the assertion that if we don't *need* slavery with crap garbage on then we should avoid it.

Okay, that's good to know, and I agree we don't need slavery then. What is your opinion on Caste System if we get it on top of Bureaucracy for free - any collateral there from the RNG?

TDK

There is no RNG hit for caste system but we don`t have any immediate need for it, and it is medium upkeep instead of low upkeep. At somepoint we will probably want to be in caste system, but maybe we can delay it till we switch to another civic?

There is no RNG hit for caste system but we don`t have any immediate need for it, and it is medium upkeep instead of low upkeep. At somepoint we will probably want to be in caste system, but maybe we can delay it till we switch to another civic?

Like what, HR? Possibly a religious civic? I agree it's not super useful to us at the moment, especially since we're creative so no need of artist for a border pop. We don't have a true GP farm to make use of that potential and certainly no workshops etc...we should probably delay it to save a small amount of maintenance.

On the other hand, it might cause a 2nd turn of revolt if the empire is bigger later...not sure on the mechanics of that especially on normal speed but if that isn't the case then we're set without it.

No Labor civic needed atm, I agree completely with TMIT that Slavery is a PITA, to be honest.

And we don't need CS unless it won't cost us extra Anarchy.

Okay, so what are immidiate plans?
After GLH, straight for Oracle in Capi?
What is 2nd city building? Settler->worker?
Where should we put 3rd city? 1n of the food in the jungle sounds good, but perhaps Marble as well?

What are we teching? After Pri we need some military, right? Or Constr? Straight for MC for Colussus?

I thought we were going to slingshot CS? Did that plan change?

After GLH, straight for Oracle in Capi?
What is 2nd city building? Settler->worker?
Where should we put 3rd city? 1n of the food in the jungle sounds good, but perhaps Marble as well? Oracle and CoL will be timed to complete at the same time, so I will balance production and science accordingly.
2nd city is building Barracks.
3rd city on Marble will build worker using the capitals fish.

The rest can wait as I will upload after Bureaucracy.

TDK

I played to CS.

T69: The Great Wall in a far away land.

T75: Oracle, Code of Laws and Civil Service. Revolt to Caste System and Bureaucracy(1 turn, 0 upkeep). Worker completed.

T76: STOP

http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/5392/sgotm8975bcsg1.jpg

i am a pretty big fan of slavery. We have some high food cities so it would be useful. It would almost single-handedly build the necessary buildings for our island city. Perhaps we could switch to it when we switch into some religion civic then... or government civic too, I suppose. and perhaps I will play a session when we enter slavery.

Ah, I didn't know about the population thing with slave revolts. If we end up switching to it perhaps the time will be when we have more cities with a large pop also. But the benefits still tend to outweigh the occasional revolt. If we had especially bad luck we'd get it 4+ times, but imo you can't avoid strategies because you are worried about the worst case scenario (in that worst case I still think slavery would break even).

Well played. I am still against slavery and I think a 3rd settler has priority over a Barracks in capital. I know the land I am aiming at (1N of cows) is not good, but it's we take it or Shaka takes it. I know which one I prefer. And we are exp, so it will have some health from takeoff. After that, Barracks->military (axes?)->Colossus.

Sorry for being confusing, TMIT, I had somehow confused our slingshot with a CoL slingshot... :p

Well played. I am still against slavery and I think a 3rd settler has priority over a Barracks in capital. I know the land I am aiming at (1N of cows) is not good, but it's we take it or Shaka takes it. I know which one I prefer. And we are exp, so it will have some health from takeoff. After that, Barracks->military (axes?)->Colossus.

Sorry for being confusing, TMIT, I had somehow confused our slingshot with a CoL slingshot... :p

I think 1 North of the cows is quite good. Grassland cows and clam makes a very fast growing city, with representation it would be a quick 12 science, or it would be able to work 5 cottages in little time.


Now the question is... do we have enough time for the pyramids? In test games when did AI build it?

Mids over military? If we're doing shaka we shouldn't waste too much more time. I think we could go construction and maybe still pick up the marble wonders in the aesthetics/TGL line.

We don't have stone...mids just seems so painful here with this city count.

I agree on the cow site - better we have it than shaka, and we're in shape for it economically for sure.

I think we should skip 'Mids. Settle 1N of Cows and then build up some military (eventually marble wonders as well).

Short analysis of military buildup plan:
Since we have both Copper and Ivory in a relative small area, I am assuming we do not have horses or iron. Hence, we should:
- Build Barracks and Axes until Construction comes around,
- Build Catapults (and perhaps more axes) when Construction is in, while teching HBR,
- Supply with Ellies once HBR is around, then attack while pumping catties, axes and ellies.

I`d let Shaka build that cows city for us. It saves us a settler and it won`t do him any good. This should allow us to attack him a few turns earlier which should easily make up for building that city later. I would found our 4th city by building a settler in the island city after it has grown to size 3 and has built 2 workboats. If we found our 4th city directly on the stone it would allow us to build the pyramids in 10 turns without any chopping, so we can get this in addition to rushing Shaka. It would also give us another overseas trade route.

A possible plan:

island city:

T11 workboat/size 2
T21 settler, start workboat
T24 found city on stone with 1 axe escort.

2nd city:

T1 barracks
T6 axe
T9 axe
T12 axe
T14 axe
T17 axe
more axes to reinforce the front.


capital:

T2 barracks
T3 axe
T4 axe
T5 axe
T6 axe
T7 axe
T8 cat
T9 axe
T11 cat
T13 cat
T14 axe
T16 cat
T17 axe
T22 Temple of Artemis
T30 Pyramids (250 B.C.) In my 3 test games no AI had built the pyramids by this 1 A.D. so we should be O.K. with this.

Tech path: construction T7-iron working (we will need it and there is an outside chance of iron)T11-polytheism T13-metal casting T22

This would put us in a position to declare war on T17 with a force of 3 cats and 9 axes outside uMunug (assuming 1 axe is escorting the settler, and 1 is spying on Shakas capital ).

An alternative would be to send our forces through Shakas territory and declare war on T21, this would allow us to attack the capital directly on T23

edit: I vote we change our city nams to ones that are easier to spell.

A possible plan:
I vote we change our city nams to ones that are easier to spell.


I agree...

A possible plan:

An alternative would be to send our forces through Shakas territory and declare war on T21, this would allow us to attack the capital directly on T23



I prefer this approach. It will focus our forces where it will do the most harm to Shaka, and we can back fill uMunug with forces from city 2.

In BTS, is Shaka more likely to declare if a stack is marching towards its capital?

I want to demonstrate the power of slavery in our current situation... slavery is especially good when it comes to building up military.

The cow and clam city would have a +6 food surplus(without lighthouse).

At size 2, it takes 24 food to grow to size 3, or 12 food with granary That means it takes 2 turns to regrow from 2 to 3..

That means, if all the city does is grow to size 3, then slave units to size 2, it would effectively have 30/2 (30 hammers per whip, every 2 turns) = 15 hammers, + 2 from the cow and +1 from the city tile for a max total of 18 hpt. That is the same as working 5 mines and a cow.

That city, along with our island city, and the pig one some, could quickly and solely build up our military through slaving. They could slave about 5 times each (can have 5 unhappy faces from size 2, and 1-2 would go away by the time they were done, so they could at least increase to size 4 before having to slow down by running specialists).

15 slaves = 450 hammers = 13 axemen just from the slaving... or 9 catapults. We'd probably want to actually grow to size 4 some of the time and whip 2 pop(60 hammers) for a catapult... and this would all be built in the course of about 10-15 turns.

So yeah, we'd get a sizable army very quickly. We could build all those units while building a wonder or something in the capital, although we'd probably want the capital to build a couple catapults

T2 barracks
T3 axe
T4 axe
T5 axe
T6 axe
T7 axe
T8 cat
T9 axe
T11 cat
T13 cat
T14 axe
T16 cat
T17 axe


How do you get that production? I am guessing you are chopping? Because the highest possible production I can get(working two grassland hill forests, the plains hill forest, which are not good tiles), is 25 per turn. That is 2 axes every 3 turns, not an axe every turn.

Mdy, I think your plan is a good one, and I also thought about settling the Stone.
I am a bit concerned though, on whether it focuses too much on expansion and too little on economy. For example the attack starting t+17, but only building fourth city at t+24, losing us 3 good trade routes for 7 turns. I also think it essential that we grab Pottery and start Cottages ASAP, especially on the river banks.
I doesn't seem like we have other AI's on our islands, so losing the foreign trade routes can only be replaced with at least an overseas one. I don't really see why we should attack Shaka early, and I think your plan would give us a larger(and more costly) army than is really necessary.

TDK

If we do end up on agreeing to switch to slavery for army building, what we could do is research monotheism, and switch to org. religion and slavery at the same time, as to not waste a turn in anarchy.

org. religion can be extremely powerful, especially if we are going to be building wonders.

How do you get that production? I am guessing you are chopping? Because the highest possible production I can get(working two grassland hill forests, the plains hill forest, which are not good tiles), is 25 per turn. That is 2 axes every 3 turns, not an axe every turn.

Yes, I had 1 worker continuosly mining the hills, which added to our base production as well as giving us several chops. The other worker built a mine for city 2 and then built the roads needed to support the war effort.

I doesn't seem like we have other AI's on our islands, so losing the foreign trade routes can only be replaced with at least an overseas one. I don't really see why we should attack Shaka early, and I think your plan would give us a larger(and more costly) army than is really necessary.


Building the city on T17 is possible if we build the settler before the workboat. If we keep a unit spying on Shakas defenses we can always declare war a few turns earlier if we see an opportunity. I suspect we may actually need a couple more units to sustain the war effort.

org. religion can be extremely powerful, especially if we are going to be building wonders.

org religion is going to be less powerful than usual in these circumstances as we have an early CS and have a lot of +100% bonuses, so org religion will only speed up wonder production by 10%.

The cow and clam city would have a +6 food surplus(without lighthouse).

At size 2, it takes 24 food to grow to size 3, or 12 food with granary That means it takes 2 turns to regrow from 2 to 3..

That means, if all the city does is grow to size 3, then slave units to size 2, it would effectively have 30/2 (30 hammers per whip, every 2 turns) = 15 hammers, + 2 from the cow and +1 from the city tile for a max total of 18 hpt. That is the same as working 5 mines and a cow.

That city, along with our island city, and the pig one some, could quickly and solely build up our military through slaving. They could slave about 5 times each (can have 5 unhappy faces from size 2, and 1-2 would go away by the time they were done, so they could at least increase to size 4 before having to slow down by running specialists).

15 slaves = 450 hammers = 13 axemen just from the slaving... or 9 catapults. We'd probably want to actually grow to size 4 some of the time and whip 2 pop(60 hammers) for a catapult... and this would all be built in the course of about 10-15 turns.

So yeah, we'd get a sizable army very quickly. We could build all those units while building a wonder or something in the capital, although we'd probably want the capital to build a couple catapults


This would get an army out very quickly once we are in a position to start whipping, but would leave us 3 cities which would be pretty useless for a long time. Setting this up would also delay our attack on Shaka, so we would lose a significant amount of production from those cities as well. I doubt this is worth it.


If we did decide to delay the attack for some reason an alternative would be to research aesthetics and build the Shedon Pah, this would enable theocracy which would give our units a significant advantage. After the war pacifism/free religion would be an option. This would also give us another source of Gprophet points.
I also think it essential that we grab Pottery and start Cottages ASAP, especially on the river banks.

At the moment we are more production limited than commerce limited. We will not have any spare pop to work cottages in the capital until the pyramids is in, so I think we can easily afford to delay pottery for a while.

Setting this up would also delay our attack on Shaka, so we would lose a significant amount of production from those cities as well. I doubt this is worth it.



6 turns is hardly a delay(research mon in 2-3, revolt after 5, 1 turn revolt)... and they would still be building in the meantime. And with slavery we'd get the army out faster and invade faster. What are you worried we would lose in production?




org religion is going to be less powerful than usual in these circumstances as we have an early CS and have a lot of +100% bonuses, so org religion will only speed up wonder production by 10%.

If you have 16 base hammers, org. religion still gives 4 extra hammers per turn. So yes, while we only increase overall speed by 10%, we still get the same hammer benefit per turn. It is like getting a an extra factory/forge for buildings earlier...imagine if there was a new building like a forge(call it smithy)... we would surely want to build it, not pass on it.

Similarly, if you get a tech in 10 turns, you don't forgo building an observatory just because it only decreases your research time to 9, or 10%. When you are already at a high level of research and production, it is hard to significantly change your pace, but it is still worth it.

And the +25% would apply to all cities, not just the capital... it would be more significant in those other cities, who will have their infrastructure to build.


As for your concern over the cities being held back, I don't think they really have many good tiles to work right now anyways, so by working specialists instead we wouldn't miss much (especially with 6 beaker scientists with rep.). On the island we'd miss out on some 2 F 2 C tiles for awhile... in the cow/clam city, some cottage grasslands for a bit... in the pig city, some hills, but if slaving gives us more hammers than the hills, it is not like it we are missing out by not growing right away to work those hills.

Pop 2-4 is the best time to slave away, because the recovery time is pretty quick. Yes, it does cause some pain of course, but the hammer benefit more than compensates for that pain.

I prefer MDY's approach tbh. I detest slavery. And the pace of military buildup seems impressive enough without.

At the moment we are more production limited than commerce limited. We will not have any spare pop to work cottages in the capital until the pyramids is in, so I think we can easily afford to delay pottery for a while.Surely, that's a question of priorities. I would rather work a river-cottage than a grasshill-mine, so in that sense we sure have the pop. Our 2 other cities could surely use cottages as well. I just feel it's a much better investment long-term, and I just don't see the rush in attacking Shaka. Let him build that last city for us, and we will take him down when we get enough cats.

I propose we build a settler in the capital ASAP, settle the Stone, build Pyramids. We have one unused trade route and others that would improve.

I don't see how we can discuss the merits of Slavery and/or any other civic before we agree on our strategy for the next couple of turnsets.

TDK

Surely, that's a question of priorities. I would rather work a river-cottage than a grasshill-mine, so in that sense we sure have the pop. Our 2 other cities could surely use cottages as well. I just feel it's a much better investment long-term, and I just don't see the rush in attacking Shaka. Let him build that last city for us, and we will take him down when we get enough cats.


We already have an extremly strong economy and we will be able to research techs much faster than we can construct the infastructure/wonders they unlock in the short term. In the long term the best way we can expand the economy is to capture/build as many cities as possible, whilst building the nessesary infastructure/wonders. For this we need to emphasise production for now, cottages can come later.

When rushing an A.I. in circumstances like this it is normally most efficient to attack and destroy him ASAP and build any filler cities ourselves.

Hi everyone - just thought I would post a note since this is the first time I've been on civfanatics in more than a year. It's great to see One Short Straw still around. Hi to all my old teammates!

Anyway I don't think I'll be back any time soon since me and my wife had twins last July (coincidentally when I stopped having any time for civ?)

Good luck with the SGOTM!

Okay, we seem to have an important choice to make here - focus on SHAKA (Mdy's approach) or focus on COMMERCE (Levgre's Approach).
Furthermore we need to discuss whether to use Slavery or not.

I am for mdy's approach,
and against Slavery.

I can understand that Levgre is for his own approach and for Slavery,
and that Mdy is for his own approach and against Slavery, correct?

We need the rest of the team to join in on this.

An early pyramids combined with growing the capital would look something like this:

T3 Settler
T4 axe
T6 barracks
T8 worker
T15 pyramids
T18 granary
T19 catapult
T20 axe
T21 catapult
T22 catapult
T23 axe
T24 axe

Marble city: worker T9 workboat T20 workboat T31

Tech path: construction T7 pottery T9 ironworking T13 polytheism T15 metal casting T23

This would mean that it would take an additional 7 turns to build a force of similar size. But the capital would be at size 10 and working 2 riverside cottages by T30. This is about 15 turns earlier than it would be otherwise. In terms of economy/rex this is probably marginally better than the later pyramids (unless Shaka gets a big bump in strength in the interval) but it is pretty close. This would reduce the chances of a prophet though.

If we adopted slavery it would be in turn 15 when we got the pyramids. In these circumstances even massive abuse of the whip would be slower than building our army up in the capital, and crippling several cities for dozens of turns is clearly not worth 6 turns of production in the capital so I think we should still stick with caste system.

mushroomshirt, congratulations on the twins. Nice of you to check in.

Mdy, I like that early Pyramids approach much better, that would get my vote. If we were to do that, is it necessary with a 4th worker - or could we drop the island worker from the queue? Or maybe lose the worker in the capital and stick the Temple of Artemis in there?

As things look now, I'm indifferent as to revolting to Slavery when we grab Rep - as long as it doesn't cost us extra turns of revolution. If it's cheaper in upkeep at that time I would be inclined to do it.
I would not use the whip too much though.

TDK

We need a minimum of 3 workers. A 4th is optional for now, but we will need it later. We would not have access to stone before T8 so it is inefficient to start the pyrmaids before then. We could get 2 axes in that slot instead. Starting the T of A would be an alternative but we could not finish it immediatly without delaying the pyramids. The worker could be dropped from the build queue in the marble city. workboat-workboat-settler could be an alternative here.

Starting the T of A would be an alternative but we could not finish it immediatly without delaying the pyramids.I think it is worth finishing it, considering the added production and chance of prophet.

The worker could be dropped from the build queue in the marble city. workboat-workboat-settler could be an alternative here.Yes, how big would it be by then? We should definitely grow it to max and assign all specialists in that city. On balance, I would rather build the worker in this city, chop a forest for it and prepare a mine. Then go workboat...
The worker could complete a cottage on the plains before moving on to the mainland. But that would require Pottery first, which I think is best anyway with early Pyramids.

TDK

I'm in over my head in terms of micro here...I've never been very good for that kind of planning :(. I will do what I can to contribute regardless.

We're not building a lot of new cities, and the current ones seem to serve our purposes without much whipping, that is if we had all of our tiles improved. What I'm not sold on is whether whipping units/buildings (which is superior to working unimproved tiles generally) is worth anarchy or slave revolt %.

Remember - grassland hills are more efficient than the whip at all pops (plains hills once the city's grown a bit, and eventually even plains forests are stronger). We also have to contrast whipping pop that could be working tiles (cottages, farms/specialists, etc), although we're still working a lot of unimproved tiles which would allow the whip to help.

I'm still undecided on whether we'd gain from slavery here. I agree that OR can be pretty useful, especially once we start taking shaka's cities. A missionary makes up its cost in the new city very quickly - a 1-2 building payoff (in addition to the culture), not to mention it'd help with our wonders.

I'm in over my head in terms of micro here...I've never been very good for that kind of planning :(. I will do what I can to contribute regardless.

We're not building a lot of new cities, and the current ones seem to serve our purposes without much whipping, that is if we had all of our tiles improved. What I'm not sold on is whether whipping units/buildings (which is superior to working unimproved tiles generally) is worth anarchy or slave revolt %.

Switch generally to "basically always"... unimproved tiles, except for maybe oasis, are very inefficient compared to slavery.

Slavery, plain and simple, converts food into hammers. I carried out the calculations for the clam cow city earlier in the thread. by growing to size 3 and slaving, it would be transformed into an 18 hammer per turn city for about 10 turns straight. Or more like 14-15 hpt if you spread it out more.
That is, cow, city tile, and 5 grassland hill mines at 18. You can just look at it that way... it become a city with those tiles tiles while it is in slave mode.

The advantage is not only that working tiles around that city would not serve our purpose as well of making hammers, but the city is "instantly" transformed into the 18hpt city. No need for improving tiles or waiting for growth(although of course our cities would grow pretty fast).


I think I will set up a test game so we can do what we did earlier... carry out our plans for 40 turns or so, and see what buildings/units and research we have at the end. It is very hard to tell what plan will work better for me, atm.


My route would be, research mono ASAP, revolt to slavery and org. religion...
build a wonder or two in the capital, while whipping all the units in the other 3 cities. I would then build workers and settlers during the slavery cooldown period.

With my plan the stone is pretty essential, because we will need rep. for the cities to be productive after slaving a big army. I would probably grow the 2 fish city to size 4 in about 5 turns and whip 60 hammers worth of the settler(12 hpt).

The pyramids is necessary for happiness, and 12 science while growing slower beats out pretty well whatever else they can do for awhile, and will make up for lost commerce. I think we would possibly be wanting to run specialists even if we did not end up slaving, because we may not have enough improved tiles, and water tiles kind of suck right now.



I agree slave revolt is of some concern. If our empire stayed this small, I would agree, it would not be worth it. But once we have all of Shaka's cities it will be quite worth it, and the odds are quite low (maybe 5%-10%) for getting one slave revolt before then, and nearly impossible to get 2. IF the slave route is more efficient, then even with a slave revolt we would just be close to breaking even. 90% chance at being better off, with 10% of breaking even, is worth it.

I think it is worth finishing it, considering the added production and chance of prophet.
An early T of A will actually hurt our production/commerce because the benefits are significantly outwayed by the delay to the pyramids/attacking Shaka. It would give us an earlier GP, with a slightly higher chance of a prophet but I doubt this is worth it.

Remember - grassland hills are more efficient than the whip at all pops (plains hills once the city's grown a bit, and eventually even plains forests are stronger). We also have to contrast whipping pop that could be working tiles (cottages, farms/specialists, etc), although we're still working a lot of unimproved tiles which would allow the whip to help.



We are currently working a lot of unimproved tiles, but that is going to change very quickly, so whipping will still be very inefficient in our 2 mainland cities.

I agree that OR can be pretty useful, especially once we start taking shaka's cities. A missionary makes up its cost in the new city very quickly - a 1-2 building payoff (in addition to the culture), not to mention it'd help with our wonders.

I don`t think O.R. is worth 3 turns of anarchy in these circumstances. Other than the capital our cities will be building units, and the capital already has a very strong production. I think we would be better off waiting for pacifism/free religion to become available from the S.P


Yes, how big would it be by then? We should definitely grow it to max and assign all specialists in that city. On balance, I would rather build the worker in this city, chop a forest for it and prepare a mine. Then go workboat...


We would be at size 2 (though we could easily grow faster if we wanted to). I favour building the worker in the capital because it would be ready faster and we get more hammers for our chop in the capital. This way also allows us to build another city earlier. It may actually be better to wait until we can build a workshop on that tile. It would be the only way of getting extra production into that city and it would allow us to switch between specialists/production depending on the circumstances.


I carried out the calculations for the clam cow city earlier in the thread. by growing to size 3 and slaving, it would be transformed into an 18 hammer per turn city for about 10 turns straight. Or more like 14-15 hpt if you spread it out more.
That is, cow, city tile, and 5 grassland hill mines at 18. You can just look at it that way... it become a city with those tiles tiles while it is in slave mode.


This is true but I can`t see us being able to start this before T17. At this point the capital could build our army faster than this city, so we may as well build it here and avoid the negatives of slavery. This also means that our future city will be more productive in the long run as we won`t have a lot of whip unhappiness.

I think we are in danger of building wonders just because they are wonders, not because they are useful to us. We are trying to maximise the number of wonders per turn played. This does not mean we have to build all the early wonders ourselves because we can capture them. We only need to build wonders if they will be more useful to us than anything else we can build. We can easily afford to spend 6 turns in the capital building units to defeat Shaka, this will not cost us any important wonders (if we really wanted them we could still probably get them all), and delaying the construction of a wonder for 6 turns will not make up for the whip unhappiness/slave revolts issues.

This will actually get our army out faster than by whipping in the cow city.

An early T of A will actually hurt our production/commerce because the benefits are significantly outwayed by the delay to the pyramids/attacking Shaka. It would give us an earlier GP, with a slightly higher chance of a prophet but I doubt this is worth it.Well, I don't have access to the game, but I'm a bit worried about our ability to produce a great prophet later, so I would prefer if we make it one of the next ones. With just one great prophet we could insure that we could produce more later by constructing the holy building on the island. I don't think we will delay the Pyramids by more than a few turns by building the T of A first.

TDK

Well, I don't have access to the game, but I'm a bit worried about our ability to produce a great prophet later, so I would prefer if we make it one of the next ones. With just one great prophet we could insure that we could produce more later by constructing the holy building on the island. I don't think we will delay the Pyramids by more than a few turns by building the T of A first.


In order to get a prophet it would be more efficient to build a temple in the capital and hire a priest. This would give us about a 60% chance of a prophet in T+26. If we went for the T of A we would have about a 45% chance of a prophet on T24. If we don`t do either we would have a little under 40% chance of a prophet on T37.

The T of A isn`t worth it, but I think a temple would be as it would allow us to grow by 1 pop so I favor this option. If we did we would need to go w.b-w.b-temple on the island and the worker would need to be built in the capital.

Building the T of A would delay the pyramids/attack on Shaka by about 7 turns. We will be better off in terms of production and commerce if we attack Shaka first and then build the T of A. ,and it would actually give us a lower chance of getting a prophet.

Building the T of A would delay the pyramids/attack on Shaka by about 7 turns. We will be better off in terms of production and commerce if we attack Shaka first and then build the T of A., and it would actually give us a lower chance of getting a prophet. Surely not both the attack on Shaka and the Pyramids will be delayed.
We need:
settler 100+T of A 175-90 chop=185 at an average of 25 hammers/turn which is 8 turns. If you want an axe form the capital, that's 1 extra turn only. So we will be ready for Pyramids at T8 or T9. I admit it will slow the attack on Shaka, but I don't mind that at all as we are making money off him.
We might even research Alphabet and attempt to get some tech trading out of him before we attack.

TDK

Surely not both the attack on Shaka and the Pyramids will be delayed.
I thought you were suggesting we build the T of A before the pyramids.

I admit it will slow the attack on Shaka, but I don't mind that at all as we are making money off him.
We might even research Alphabet and attempt to get some tech trading out of him before we attack.


We are making a small amount of money off Shaka, BUT those cities will give us even more money after we have taken them it is therefore in our best interests to take them ASAP. Capturing Shaka`s cities will give us a bigger boost than the T of A which is why I suggest only building the T of A after we have built our force to defeat Shaka. Why would we build the T of A first when doing so can only set us back economically?

I don`t think alphabet is worth researching. It is possible that Shaka has not met anyone yet, in which case he won`t trade us any techs. Even if he has he will have very little(if anything) that we want. It would be cheaper to research the techs ourselves and trade for alpha when we meet another civ.

I don't think we can get Mids, war with Shaka and THEN ToA; it usually falls early in my experience. Other than that, We need to take care of Shaka asap. And we should do it without Slavery in my opinion.

Mdy, my point was that we could build t of A, the Pyramids as soon as we have stone, but the attack would clearly be delayed.
I'm not sure it's better economically to attack Shaka early, many of his cities are not very good, and we will lose trade routes and get city maintenance.
T of A would greatly increase our income and also give a hammer. There is also the Prophet issue to think of. I don't like the temple plan because we probably couldn't grow the capital anyway without taking the fish from Marble city, so it's simply not worth it right now IMO.

TDK

I don't think we can get Mids, war with Shaka and THEN ToA; it usually falls early in my experience. Other than that, We need to take care of Shaka asap.

The TOA does fall fairly early but my test games indicate that we will be almost certain to get it, even if we build it after attacking Shaka.


I'm not sure it's better economically to attack Shaka early, many of his cities are not very good, and we will lose trade routes and get city maintenance.
T of A would greatly increase our income and also give a hammer. There is also the Prophet issue to think of. I don't like the temple plan because we probably couldn't grow the capital anyway without taking the fish from Marble city, so it's simply not worth it right now IMO.


When we attack Shaka we will lose a mere 1 commerce per turn in each city, but unless we build another city on an island first this is going to happen anyway, so delaying the attack won`t make any differnce to this. Shakas capital is significantly better than any other location available to us and his other 2 cities look perfectly reasonable. With the Great Lighthouse all these cities would make us a profit and the commerce bonus for them would be much better than the bonus from TOA, hence we should attack Shaka frst. The 1 extra hammer from the TOA will easily be outwayed by the extra production from Shakas cities. The increase in the chances of getting a prophet is very small with the TOA (it actually redues it if we bild a temple). The temple plan would mean taking the fish from the marble city, but as it can build another workboat in 10 turns I don`t think it is a problem.

I agree with MDY. Rest of the team, please post your opinions on this.

Rest of the team, please post your opinions on this.

I am for taking out Shaka and building the Mids. Please recap the plan for comment. -Thanks

If we go with th temple/priest plan it looks something like this:

Capital:

T2 worker
T4 temple
T5 axe
T7 settler
T9 granary
T11 barracks
T17 pyramids revolt rep
T20 cat
T21 axe
T22 cat
T23 axe
T24 axe

The 2nd city builds axes after the barracks is finished.

Tech path: pottery(2), iron working(6), construction(13), polytheism(15), MC(23)

This is 1 turn slower compared with the no temple plan, and we have an extra axe instead of a cat. It does however increase our chance of a prophet by about 50% and the capital is more developed. The island city would have to go workboat-workboat in this case to allow the capital to grow.

Let's get rid of Shaka. GLH will cover, and if we truly have a reasonable chance at ToA after I'd say deal with the problem before it becomes more of one. Shaka won't be building any wonders FOR us or anything, so we might as well make use of those cities ASAP.

Okay, I can support this plan. Why are we researching iron working?

So it's workboat first in Marble city?

TDK

I put ironworking in on the off chance that we had iron and could build swords/get a production bonus. We would need it to chop the jungle soon anyway. If we didn`t research it now what tech do you suggest we research instead?

I think we should get Currency after we settle Stone city. So maybe Pottery, Construction, (Alphabet), Currency.

We will lose the extra trade routes when we declare, but we should get them back once we take the first city,

TDK

Hi everyone - just thought I would post a note since this is the first time I've been on civfanatics in more than a year. It's great to see One Short Straw still around. Hi to all my old teammates!

Anyway I don't think I'll be back any time soon since me and my wife had twins last July (coincidentally when I stopped having any time for civ?)

Good luck with the SGOTM!
Hey mushroomshirt--twins rock! I've got a set that are 5 now. Enjoy!

OK- I can see the save w/o the HOF mode but can't play a set.

RL has been a killer lately so sorry I haven't been around much.

I would definately have been in slavery. I don't see much use for caste here and the island city and the cow/clam if we found and Zulu cities will likely have good use for it. Remember we have half price granaries, and I think there is good synergy whipping those at size 2.

I haven't had a chance to weigh settling the stone--any chance we could settle 1N and still get it hooked up in time? If we settle the stone we lose the clam and likely have a useless city forever instead of a reasonable one.

As for the cow/clam site, my only comment there is that it's unlikely Shaka settles it where we want it and it really does need to be 1N of the cow.

I don't think TOA is essential. We'll surely pop a priest or two along the way as our capital will be the GP pump with the wonders. We should let the AI found the rest of the religions if possible.

As stated earlier by MDY and others, at this stage of the game we should only build wonders that are worth the investment to further our expansion/tech. I'd put 'mids and GLib in that catagory.

I would definately not research alpha--the AI will trade that as a monopoly.

Do we know if Shaka has any other contacts?
Looking at his EP's seems odd--he's got more than us. I didn't think the AI built EP pre-alpha.

I think earlier is better re Shaka, but not at the cost of the 'mids.

IIRC the AI sets the slider to 20% espionage pretty consistently. I noticed this while running test games with my custom AI XML edits last weekend (in fact I couldn't find a way to remove this tendency, even dragging the weight to 0) - shaka having more cities than us and applying 20% EP on us should give him the lead.

I haven't had a chance to weigh settling the stone--any chance we could settle 1N and still get it hooked up in time? If we settle the stone we lose the clam and likely have a useless city forever instead of a reasonable one.


This is possible, but it would mean delaying the pyramids until after we have attacked Shaka (and built the T of A if we go down that route). The delay to the mids hurts the priest strategy because of happiness issues, and the priest is less useful. The reason it is desirable to get a prophet as the next GP is that it allows us to turn the island into our prophet farm early, this means we can avoid running priests and things like the chicken iza in the capital to get more prophet points there. This is also the best way to get some early production into that city.

I think we should get Currency after we settle Stone city. So maybe Pottery, Construction, (Alphabet), Currency.



Currency would be the better choice if we do not have access to iron. If we do I think iron working would be better as swords are much better at taking cities than axes.

We won't know whether we have access to iron pre-IW, afaik?

Also, I will be leaving on a 3½ day-vacation starting in 18 hrs. In that time I will have no access to the internet, so I will not be active here. In important discussions, if such ones are to arrive, please count me as backing mdys opinions. See you thursday ;)

Iron would be slightly better, but Currency is a guaranteed winner. Also, axes perform better against Impis than swords does.

But go ahead with what you deem the best approach. Good luck!

TDK

On the stone city, another possibility is to skip building it altogether and build the 'mids w/o stone. Building the city costs 100 for settler+35 for axe=135.
If both are built in the capital that's 90h.
The 'mids is 367h with/o stone and 200 with so the city saves 77*1.5=115h at the cost of a crap city forever.

I think vs the Zulu swords lose some of their advantage relative to axes as I think Shaka tends to overbuild melee units relative to archers.

On reflecion it would probably be best to research currency before iron working. I would still found the stone city however, in terms of hammers it is slighlty more favourable, and at worst that city can become a moderate fishing village. We would also get a commerce boost from the trade routes and if we decided to build the hanging Gardens then founding the stone city would give us a significant boost to production.

Go ahead, Mdy!

TDK

Go ahead, Mdy!


O.K. I will go with the stone city/priest/currency plan later today if there are no objections.

I have paused after the pyramids have been built because we have made contact with Portugal which may change our future strategy. It may be worth researching alphabet next and use it to bribe Shaka into war with Portugal this would allow us to destroy him with far fewer forces.

The save is here:

Some screenshots.

I agree on Alphabet next. Maybe upload for discussion after that?

Stone city looks perfect with Pasture and 2 cottages. Should we fogbust with the warrior and send the axe back to participate in the attack?

I think we are in danger of getting way to much production while neglecting our economy. We should construct some cottages and allow our cities to grow.

I don't know about Espionage points, but my guess is we should focus on one opponent. Portugal?

TDK

I'm not wild about the bribe. It's a long way for Shaka to get to Joao, and I'm not sure it's worth having him in war mode for that long. We may want to consolidate for a while after Shaka so we might get some value from relations with Joao.

I'm game for alpha--I guess it could be a while before the monarch AI gets it and we may want to trade for IW.

Looking at the EP screen we have split our ep's 2 apiece. We have 14 vs Joao and he has only 8 vs us. Seems like he has at least one other contact.

I would have taken slavery with rep. I think this is an error as 2 of our 4 cities have little production. We're basically getting nothing from caste except avoiding the slave revolt.

Should we fogbust with the warrior and send the axe back to participate in the attack?

yes it looks like we can cover all the tiles with the warrior fogbusting.



I think we are in danger of getting way to much production while neglecting our economy. We should construct some cottages and allow our cities to grow.

well our production comes from 2 cities. One lacks a gran, and I think is OK to stagnate until after we get the units we need.
I think MDY was planning on working the newly built cottage in the capital--I guess the question is whether to cottage another river or mine the remaining hill--I'd probably go the hill as I think getting this war done quick is worth a lot.



I don't know about Espionage points, but my guess is we should focus on one opponent. Portugal?

yes I don't think we'll get much use out of espionage vs. Zulu.

I agree with focusing our EP`s on Portugal-Shaka should be dead bfore we get any use out of them.

I think MDY was planning on working the newly built cottage in the capital--I guess the question is whether to cottage another river or mine the remaining hill--I'd probably go the hill as I think getting this war done quick is worth a lot.


I agree with working the mine first, we will have built it by the time the city has grown enough to use it.

Should we fogbust with the warrior and send the axe back to participate in the attack?


That`s what I was thinking of.

I think we are in danger of getting way to much production while neglecting our economy.

Our economy is massive for our era, we can research techs far quicker than we can build the wonders/infastruture/units assosiated with them, for now at least we are going to be hammer limited not commerce limited.

Monarch is pretty forgiving about expansion vs economy. We'd be ok taking out shaka for a while although we probably don't want to neglect cottages forever...hammers should be the focus atm IMO.

EP on Joao - Shaka dead means EP on him is kind of pointless.

I'm not for a war bribe...it might well make Shaka mass up troops without going to attack, which means we'll see more. Its chance of giving us meaningful returns is lower than the chance of something like that happening. We can just splatter him regardless and not take the hit with Joao for bribing war allies.

On the other hand, I do advocate pushing for alpha...monarch AIs are pretty slow and we may even be able to trade multiple crap techs for IW depending on our luck.

mdy, wiil you play more? We are wasting valuable time here.

I will play to alphabet later today if there are no more comments.

Sorry for not joining in, I think the plan sounds fine, Alpha, fogbust with the warrior, EPs on Joao.

EDIT: Oh and TMIT is right, Monarch is rather forgiving on REXing and we have a very powerful economy already, compared to the era.

I have played and uploaded the save.

Turn 77, 950 BC: You have discovered Pottery!

Turn 78, 925 BC: Confucianism has spread in Yasodharapura.

Turn 84, 775 BC: You have discovered Currency!

Turn 85, 750 BC: Shaka converts to Confucianism!

Turn 86, 725 BC: Angkor Wat has been founded.
Turn 86, 725 BC: Confucianism has spread in Hariharalaya.
Turn 86, 725 BC: The borders of Angkor Thom have expanded!
Turn 86, 725 BC: Confucianism has spread in Angkor Wat.

Turn 88, 675 BC: Vermin got in to the granary in Yasodharapura. All the food stored there was ruined.

Turn 89, 650 BC: You have discovered Construction!
Turn 89, 650 BC: The borders of Angkor Wat have expanded!

Turn 90, 625 BC: The villagers have provided you with a Warrior!
Turn 90, 625 BC: A slave revolt has taken place in the Portuguese city of Oporto!

Turn 91, 600 BC: You have discovered Polytheism!
Turn 91, 600 BC: Suryavarman II has completed The Pyramids!

Turn 92, 575 BC: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 92, 575 BC: Suryavarman II adopts Representation!
Turn 92, 575 BC: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.
Turn 92, 575 BC: Confucianism has spread in Nobamba.

Turn 95, 500 BC: The borders of Hariharalaya have expanded!

Turn 96, 475 BC: Shankara (Great Prophet) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 97, 450 BC: You have discovered Alphabet!
Turn 97, 450 BC: Christianity has been founded in a distant land!

Good play mdy.

I think we have enough to start attacking the first city. Our axes look very good against his forces. He will probably waste some of his axes against our axes defending in the jungle. After that we should just take it down slowly with bombard followed by a collateral attack.

Should we trade Iron Working & Archery from Portugal?

I still think we are slightly too focused on production. Constructing a Cottage on the south bank of the river and working it with Hariharalaya, to be handed over to the capital once it has grown some, would be a great investment IMO. Doing that, and using 2.1 turns of production in Hariharalaya to construct a Granary is clearly worth the investment and would give us a much better city.

I think we should start renaming our cities. I propose Capital, Mine City, Marble City, Stone City.

TDK

Sounds very good! Judging by the rate the techs flow in, we won't have any problems techwise just up ahead. I don't think the cottaging is urgent.

Also, I may or may not have understood the save policy here, it seems that you sometimes link the saves here and sometimes in another thread. Sorry for being a dumbhead, but could I ask where you link the saves when it isn't here?

This is where the save always ends up after a turn set is completed: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php?game=50008&displayteams=displayteams&all_0=&include[]=CRC&include[]=Murky+Waters&include[]=One+Short+Straw&include[]=Smurkz&include[]=Xteam&format=score&enddate=-1640&startdate=-4000&submit=Refresh#format

I only upload saves to the forum that are test games, so as not to mix things up.

TDK

Oh okay. That looks advanced. I'll look at it when I have time and am at the right computer, probably some time tomorrow.

I think we have enough to start attacking the first city. Our axes look very good against his forces. He will probably waste some of his axes against our axes defending in the jungle. After that we should just take it down slowly with bombard followed by a collateral attack.


Are you sure? Our army still looks too small. I thought we were going after the capital first not the border city?

I agree with trading for agriculture and iron working. We may as well get archery at the same time.

I still think we are slightly too focused on production.

I disagree our economy is very big for our era and we are able to research techs far quicker than we can build the assosiated infastructure. This suggest we shoul continue working the max production tiles.

Are you sure? Our army still looks too small. I thought we were going after the capital first not the border city?Oh, okay, that might work.

I think we need to figure out when we reach a point where going aggressively for 6 universities and Oxford will be more valuable for us than continued expansion. My guess is we will have to start libraries+uni shortly after we take out Shaka. What do you think?

TDK

I don`t think expansion and a relativly early Oxford are mutually exclusive, as the cities which would build our settlers (mine city/Shaka capital) could get universities up fairly quickly. If we did this we would need to dedicate our minor cities to building libraries/universities shortly after the Shaka war. Researching education will still take a long time at the moment, even with our economy so I would research several other techs first rather than doing a hard education beeline.


What should we do with our next GP? If we can build the shrine. If we got a merchant/scientist I would probably settle it in the capital, but what about an engineer?

Should we consider adopting confunicism once we have built enough units to take on shaka?

I would actually advocate the option of using an eventual Engineer to build the Angkor Wat, perhaps in the island city. Another couple of prophets would be awesome.

I would actually advocate the option of using an eventual Engineer to build the Angkor Wat, perhaps in the island city. Another couple of prophets would be awesome.

The island city will be able to run 4 priests with a temple and shrine. With a lighthouse the maximum number of specialists that could be run is 5 so there is no real need for the Angor Wat there. 4 priests should guarantee us 2 more prophets if we can get the shrine soon. This should be enough. If we build a wonder with an engineer the Apolistic Palace may be an alternative, this is the most expensive wonder available in the near future and it would give us more production than settling the GE. Altenativly we could save it for a corporation?

I think we need to decide which wonders we are going to build in the near future. I think the possible ones are : Temple of Artemis/Hanging Gardens/Mauseleom Of Musolis/Shedon Pagh/Parthenon/Collosus/Apolistic Palce (only if we get a GE)

If we wanted all these wonders we would probably have to build at least one outside the capital, and even then we may not get them all.

A possible plan:

Capital: catapult-catapult-spear-axe-axe-forge-Temple of Artemis

Mine city: axe-axe-axe-spear-axe-forge

marble city: temple-lighthouse

stone city: worker-galley (we could do with another scout, and it would help if any barb galleys showed up.)

Tech path:
metal casting
monotheism/theology (only if we get a GE and want to use it on the AP)
aesthetics
calendar (if we want the M of M)
paper/machinery/literature

We can trade alphabet and meditation to Jao for iron working, agriculture and archery.

This should give us a force of 10 axes, 1 spear and 3 cats outside Shakas borders on T+7. If we go with the capital first plan we would be ready to declare war on T+12, and the capital should fall on T+14/15. We would also have another 2 axes (if we left a axe behind) and spear available to defend against a couter attack, together with the scout.

I never tried founding a corporation. Do we need gp's for all of them or can we take them by conquest?

All corporations need to be founded by GP`s, we can capture them but relying on the AI`s to build them could be risky. The 2 that need engineers are unlocked by railroad and combustion which we should easily be able to research before we win the game.

On second thoughts it might be better to go after the peninsular city first and then the capital. This would not require splitting our forces and the zulus 2 move impis could pillage several improvements before we could deal with them, they could even force us to build more units in the capital just to counter them. If we did this and declared war on T+7 we should get the first city on T+9, the attack on the capital would be delayed by the number of turns it took our stack to heal in the peninsular victory. What does the team think?

Sounds excellent, go ahead.

Who is up next? I can play a few more turns tomorrow evening if no one else can take it in the near future.

Mdy, go ahead and play some more. Might be worth it to attack a bit earlier to see if he wastes some of his units attacking us in the jungle.

The 2 that need engineers are unlocked by railroad and combustion which we should easily be able to research before we win the game. I don't understand, do you mean they are so early the AI will build them for us?
If we need all 7 gp's for the Corps, the Engineers are clearly the most difficult to get. Could we hope to have enough engineers for the AP and 2 Corporations?

If we explore the last couple of tiles south from Shaka's two workers, we will probably establish trade with the Portuguese. Will those be broken once we declare on Shaka?

TDK

If we explore the last couple of tiles south from Shaka's two workers, we will probably establish trade with the Portuguese. Will those be broken once we declare on Shaka?


Good point, but we will lose the trade routes when we attack Shaka.

Could we hope to have enough engineers for the AP and 2 Corporations?


I don`t think we can tell how likley it will be for an AI to found one of the corps for us without more knowledge of the map. In the unlikly event that the next GP is an engineer, we can probably get 2 more if we build the hanging gardens and run an engineer for most of the game, but it is a risk. We could increase the odds by running pacifism early. May be we should adopt a state religion after we attack Shaka? This would also help with happiness in the capital.

Maybe you could just upload after MC is in.

Good point, but we will lose the trade routes when we attack Shaka.Ok, let's send the worker down there to reveal the tiles now. It will ensure that we take up trade with the Portuguese ASAP after capturing blocking cities. Zule has a couple of cities we don't know where is, it's a priority to find them before the war IMO.

If we get the engineer, I would save it for later. I don't think AP is worth it and we risk losing a Corp.

I agree with you about settling Merchant/Scientist.

TDK

I`ve played to metal casting and have uploaded the save. The good news is that we got a prophet and I think we are in position to declare war on Shaka immediatly. There is also a source of iron which will be available to the clams/cow city. The bad news is that we lost the worker to a barb warrior in Shakas territory.

A couple of thoughts: (I don't have the HOF working properly so I probably won't be able to play a set this game).

Zulu have 2 additional cities that we don't see. We may need a few more units.

I'd be in favor of OR, conf, slavery. We essentially get nothing from caste other than avoiding the revolt. I think after the war we'll be in building mode for a while and slavery will be worth it--we can whip grans for 1 pop as expansive.

The capital is about to go unhealthy--I'd hook up the pigs (we'll shortly have the sheep but the forge+1 growth are coming soon).

I would look to build the following wonders if we think we can break from building units: parth (in city2), colosseus, possibly HG, glib.
We're looking at a pretty good expansion here with a fair bit of water so I think the colosseus is worth it.
Having popped the prophet I think we should be able to get enough prophets. 1 shrine has been built away--if we can avoid founding any more religions the AI should build at least a couple more and we should get I'd think 3 prophets if we want them.

Zulu have 2 additional cities that we don't see. We may need a few more units.



I agree, but we should be able to build enough in the mine city and leave the capital for wonders/infastructure.

I'd be in favor of OR, conf, slavery. We essentially get nothing from caste other than avoiding the revolt. I think after the war we'll be in building mode for a while and slavery will be worth it--we can whip grans for 1 pop as expansive.

OR and conf would certainly be useful, but when should we revolt? We are reaching the point where the AI could build the TOA/HG if the RNG had an unlucky role. Whilst CS is not doing anything for us at the moment it will come in useful later, and I am still doubtful about slavery. In the capital/mine city whipping will be counter productive. The marble city will be running max priests so we can`t whip that. The only placre where we could use the whip is the stone city ( and maybe to whip away a few of Shakas unhappy citizens).


The capital is about to go unhealthy--I'd hook up the pigs (we'll shortly have the sheep but the forge+1 growth are coming soon).

I agree.

parth (in city2), colosseus, possibly HG, glib.
We're looking at a pretty good expansion here with a fair bit of water so I think the colosseus is worth it.


I agree with building the parthenon in the second city after we are sure we have enough units for Shaka (and maybe a forge?). The Collosus is also worth it but we will have to dealay building it unless we want to lose some of the other wonders. Maybe forge-TOA-baray-HG can be built next in the capital.

Actually I think I'd research monotheism and revolt after that.

I disagree with not whipping the prophet city. We don't need prophets right away since we got the shrine and can run a bunch of priests, so I would whip gran, whip lighthouse at the least. Once we get infra up then we can run the prophets.

The other island city could use whipping on a more sustained basis.

Newly founded cities and Zulu cities can also use whipping. Against this is the cost of a bad RNG on the slave revolt--I would argue that while that would of course be bad, none of the wonders we are in danger of losing are must haves. OR will pay for itself pretty quickly--even in worst case in the capital it's a 10% production boost and it's 17% on infra.

I don't have a sense of when the AI builds wonders on monarch, so I definately defer to your judgement about when to try for what.

I disagree with not whipping the prophet city. We don't need prophets right away since we got the shrine and can run a bunch of priests, so I would whip gran, whip lighthouse at the least. Once we get infra up then we can run the prophets.


We will want a granary/lighthouse in the shrine city but we can build them quickly enough without the whip (15 turns total). As the city will be very close to it`s happy cap at this point there is no hurry to get them built. Given our need for prophets anything else will probably be to expensive to whip.

The stone city would get more hammers if we used the whip, as would several of Shakas minor cities. On the other hand every hammer/commerce lost in the capital hurts us more than a loss in a minor city.


The Temple of Artemis is built sometime close to 1 A.D., and the Hanging Gardens normally comes a little later.

The Statue of Zeus/Mausoleum of Mausolis/Shedon Pagh/Parthenon are usually built between T130 and T140. The Collosus and Great Library come slightly later.

I haven't had time to look at the game much, but I would probably prefer to go for slavery because it seems difficult to get to 6 universities fast without it. Will it cost an extra turn to revolt to OR & Slavery?

Parthenon seems like a rather marginal wonder to me, we will probaly get to Scientific Method rather quickly. We might want to gift our Marble to Portugal when we get a trade route in the hope of them starting a wonder for us.

TDK

I haven't had time to look at the game much, but I would probably prefer to go for slavery because it seems difficult to get to 6 universities fast without it. Will it cost an extra turn to revolt to OR & Slavery?

I think we can get both for one revolt.
That's another good point about the unis.


Parthenon seems like a rather marginal wonder to me, we will probaly get to Scientific Method rather quickly. We might want to gift our Marble to Portugal when we get a trade route in the hope of them starting a wonder for us.

I'm not sure it will be that quick as we'll likely research some techs that we'd normally trade for as I think we'll outrun the AI big time.
MoM is a wonder that I almost never build, since I usually trade for calender but we might consider it here. Most likely we'll build the Taj, and either 1-2 GA from GP. So that's either 8 or 12 turns of GA.

I agree that slavery would be useful for whipping some universities, but as we are still a long way from this point there is no need to revolt to slavery for this yet. If we time things right we should be able to trigger a goldern age (from either the TAJ or the music artist) at around this time to avoid the extra anarchy.

I'm not sure it will be that quick as we'll likely research some techs that we'd normally trade for as I think we'll outrun the AI big time.
MoM is a wonder that I almost never build, since I usually trade for calender but we might consider it here. Most likely we'll build the Taj, and either 1-2 GA from GP. So that's either 8 or 12 turns of GA.


I agree we do not need to discover scientific method very early, and it would help our economy if we delayed it for as long as reasonably possible.

Parthenon seems like a rather marginal wonder to me, we will probaly get to Scientific Method rather quickly. We might want to gift our Marble to Portugal when we get a trade route in the hope of them starting a wonder for us.


It may be better to hope he does not build any wonders, and to keep him as a tech trading partner. It looks like every undiscovered AI has it`s own religion so we will probably go to war with all of them at some point. We could use at least 1 ally.

It may be better to hope he does not build any wonders, and to keep him as a tech trading partner. It looks like every undiscovered AI has it`s own religion so we will probably go to war with all of them at some point. We could use at least 1 ally.
yes I don't think we want any AI to build a wonder that we want to use.

As for the slavery issue, I don't think we are that far away from edu.
I don't think we'd want to use anything but an artist to trigger a GA (and not at all sure we'd want to pop it sooner rather than later), and I think the Taj is much later.

What is our tech path from here anyway?

Sorry I'm not exactly very active but this week requires a lot of me in school, I have a big, annual report to write. I'll try to lurk around still.

What is our tech path from here anyway?


If we go: monotheism-2 revolts-aesthetics-calendar-literature-music-paper-education we are currently about 55 turns from education, though this will come down with improvememts to our economy. If we are in OR a size 10 city can whip a university once it has 13 hammers invested in it and a size 8 city would need 50 hammers so we would not be able to whip the universities for several more turns.


Music is in there because of the free artist. At worst using it to lightbulb nationalism would give us more beakers than it cost to research music, but saving it for a goldern age would probably be better. If we timed it right it could allow us to build the universities/Oxford quicker.

Music is in there because of the free artist. At worst using it to lightbulb nationalism would give us more beakers than it cost to research music, but saving it for a goldern age would probably be better. If we timed it right it could allow us to build the universities/Oxford quicker.
How about assigning all scientists(keep 2 fish+gold mine(+alternate cattle/copper)) in capital at tech 100%, that would give us Music and GA in about 10 turns. Then revolt without anarchy and get out wonders quickly after that.
We would also then get a scientist to settle which I think is a better deal than a later 2 Great Person Golden Age.

TDK

How about assigning all scientists(keep 2 fish+gold mine(+alternate cattle/copper)) in capital at tech 100%, that would give us Music and GA in about 10 turns. Then revolt without anarchy and get out wonders quickly after that.


If we did this we would probably lose the TOA which is worth about 20% of our current economy. The Hanging Gardens might also be at risk. Starting a GA before we built the Mausoleum of Mausollos would also cost us 4 turns of a golden age. A GA just after we got education would give us more beakers/hammers and would probbly allow us to get Oxford up a few turns quicker. If we revolt to and from slavery (and maybe OR) around then it should save us the same number of turns of anarchy.

If we did this we would probably lose the TOA which is worth about 20% of our current economy. The Hanging Gardens might also be at risk. Starting a GA before we built the Mausoleum of Mausollos would also cost us 4 turns of a golden age. A GA just after we got education would give us more beakers/hammers and would probably allow us to get Oxford up a few turns quicker. If we revolt to and from slavery (and maybe OR) around then it should save us the same number of turns of anarchy.
True enough. I can support that.

As to the war and going ToA, after taking the peninsula city, we should send a strong force to the southern city to overwhelm it, while a smaller northern command bombards the capital. That would hopefully open trade with the Portuguese.

TDK

Checkin in....

My apologies for being away without warning. It is a very busy time at work.

I will download the save and get up to speed.