A strong leader and a strong start this time with 2 corns, one of them irrigated, and a lot of forests.

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk162/silverbullet_sz/zara/Civ4ScreenShot0004.jpg


As usual - please post all your game reports inside a spoiler tag with the year outside.
Feel free to add as much detail as possible or as little as you want. Discussions related to specific games should also be in spoilers.
Good luck Zara students.

Man these are coming out fast. I'm going to be a bit swamped until Friday afternoon but I'll try and finish up Pacal II and the get into this. I'm starting to gradually catch on to immortal now.

You seem to be doing well in the Pacal game, and you are the only one who played it without the AggAI, so you played the most difficult game.

None of those corns seems irrigated to me, or is that a freshwater lake? Settle 1E seems pretty good...

Just wondering if I should start another game and this pops up. Thanks silverbullet :) Zara is one of my favourite leaders. Going to try and avoid the GLib and bulbing this game though, have to see how far I can get.

Oyzar, you are right. I think they are both unirrigated. Well, the start now looks a little less impressive, but still reasonable.

Isn't it Zara Yaqob?

Anyway, these are coming really fast...I still need to finish my Joao game.

^It is, and yes they're coming fast but i normally wouldn't mind, as it is i have to wait for 10 days before i'm able to play it. Give it a try then.Start looks great btw even with the corns unirrigated, Zara is one of the strongest ai leaders but should be very good in human control also.

Yaqob or Yakob, I am sure we all pronounce it wrong anyway.
The name originates from Hebrew actually where it would be pronounced Zera Ya'acov(זרע יעקב), at least according to wikipedia.

Anyway, the game is not running away anywhere.
Don't feel obligated to play it in real time. I myself won't have time to play it until the weekend, but I just thought that most of us have finished the pacal game, and with Dirk on vacation we won't see a Deity challenge soon... so for those lucky ones who have more free time... :)

you will when i get back :p. And indeed this game won't run away.

- 800BC Couldn't resist :D



First question settle in place or not? The blue circle indicates 1 west so I moved the scout and noticed the riverside cows so unusually for me I moved 1W and settled. Tech path went Agr/AH/BW great got bronze in the BFC by moving as well. :)

I managed to get 2 scouts and a little bit of gold from huts so mapped quite a bit of the land early. Lots of land to settle in but most of it is @@@@. :sad: There are some OK sites but nothing really jumps out. Settled the gold/stone spot second at least it can use one of the capitals corn. Headed even further south for the 3rd.

Have 3 cities at 800BC with 1 settler built but unsure where to settle, I was looking at a site near Charles but he will beat me to it so probably heading even further South and settle on the river to the SE. At least being organised upkeep isn't so bad.

Current lands.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh168/SJG12345/univZara/Civ4ScreenShot0043.jpg

Also met Wil and Monte who are both quite close so hopefully Monte will go for him alhough I wouldn't be surprised for him to attack me. Distance doesn't seem to matter to him. :lol:

Wasn't sure what to do so thought we've got stone lets build the Pyramids. Managed to get a few hammers into the build on the first turn.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh168/SJG12345/univZara/Civ4ScreenShot0041.jpg

With a whip for the library and 2 forest chops coming in on the first turn gave me 152 hammers (doesn't show 40 hammers from the 2nd chop) so they didn't take to long to build and I've just adopted rep.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh168/SJG12345/univZara/Civ4ScreenShot0042.jpg

A picture to show how quick the AI can get there first city out.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh168/SJG12345/univZara/Civ4ScreenShot0040.jpg

Not sure where to go from here? I might try and use the capital as a super city and get lots of wonders there with the other cities as helpers. In which case I'm allowed to try and build the GLib but I'll still avoid bulbing if possible. I'll be interested to see what other people make of this start.

till -520bc

Not having the energy to post the pacal game(Which was rather dull anyway - aggAI sure is crap - funny enough I even managed to pull a holkan rush with it).

One of my fav. leaders and the unirrigated corn :p

Settling in place and moving the scout afterwards; I pop mysticism. Go worker while teching agri(how original).

I notice a stone/gold combo nearby; I meet oranje and the madman.

I go bw post agri(can fall back on archery in time since start with hunting).

Get health event, chose max(cap. was at 1 while building 2nd worker, so no loss).

Get -1 with monty random, bump into charlie.

We have bronze, so I go wheel.

Charlie budha, monty hindu. Not bad. And close to each other.

Wheel - masonry - fishing - pottery

I get 4 axes online with some careful chopping, maxing chances to regrow.

ah-IW

The mids are in same turn I manage to raze an annoying barb. city while unlocking he.

http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq185/snowlywhite/zara%20immortal/Civ4ScreenShot0000.jpg

I literally crawl to last parts of iw. Monty jumps on oranje.

Gems get online and life suddenly seems better :p

http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq185/snowlywhite/zara%20immortal/Civ4ScreenShot0001.jpg




Gold pops. near capitol, life is definitelly better :p

http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq185/snowlywhite/zara%20immortal/Civ4ScreenShot0002.jpg

I get abit bored and given I've played crappy all the set, I stop. Land is good, chokin' is easy, however I didn't think about any move I made :p

http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq185/snowlywhite/zara%20immortal/Civ4ScreenShot0003.jpg

How much does Immortal level get affected by making the map into a WB file and running it as a Scenario so I can change speeds? I really dislike Normal, but I am afraid that the barbs may be nerfed significantly if its turned into a WB file.

How much does Immortal level get affected by making the map into a WB file and running it as a Scenario so I can change speeds? I really dislike Normal, but I am afraid that the barbs may be nerfed significantly if its turned into a WB file.

I would really appreciate also if these could be played on epic speed, I dislike Normal level too much to try them at this moment :(

I played the first couple of IUs games on epic speed with some help from rolo and I didn't notice anything strange about the barbarians but otoh the first game with Monty was on a map that saw limited amounts of barbarians by its nature.
With that said, I don't regret moving from epic to normal. Considering how slow I usually play it increases my chance of finishing games before getting bored of them. :)

How much does Immortal level get affected by making the map into a WB file and running it as a Scenario so I can change speeds? I really dislike Normal, but I am afraid that the barbs may be nerfed significantly if its turned into a WB file.

why would that be the case?

anyway, didn't notice anything peculiar in barb. action

There was some discussion on one of the LHC threads about the whole WB concept. We know that if you create the save in Prince or below, the AIs dont get Archery if you choose to play at Monarch or Emperor, so we were going with 2 WB saves, one for Prince and below, one for Monarch and above. Rolo also decided to add a 3rd save to that series for Immortal and Deity, but the subject of Barbarian "techs" came up.

It seems that using the WB ---> Scenario trick re-sets the barbarian "nation" to 0 on the tech scale. That means the first Barbs you see wont be Archers (or a combo of Warriors and Archers, which is what I often see on my offline Emp and Imm games), but straight warriors for some time. There is even a chance that if the Barbs form a city, it will be defended by Warriors instead of Archers, even on Immortal. And there appears to be no way to "give" the barbs Archery in that situation.

I was just wondering if anyone noticed that they didnt see Barb Archers early, or if they ever saw a Barb city on Emp or Immortal with just Warriors defending, something that should never happen IMHO, not for the sake of the human player, but if the AI gets a bunch of "free" cities from Barbs it will be extra strong early.

I play these on epic speed. Scroll in so you don't see anything, go into worldbuilder, and save it.

Then go into notepad and edit it so that speed and #turns=0.

That's really all you need to do if the only thing you want to change is speed...from there you can just pick "epic" in the scenario.

You can lock leaders so you don't see them when booting it, but you risk seeing them in notepad so I usually just do the above and avoid looking at the leader screen (you can just hit next since it will default to the leader you want).

Right TMIT, thats the "process", I always just focus my eyes on the lower corner when the "choose Civ" screen comes up, since the one I want is the default, I just click through the OK quickly.

But as I said in my above post, once you re-start it as a Scenario, there is a chance the Barbs get messed up a tad. Scenario menu does NOT add techs, we know this from the Prince to Monarch thing. So the Barbarian Nation starts the game without knowledge of Archery. Now, they may just "obtain" that knowledge before they start appearing, I am not sure, but if they dont, it makes the game play much differently, especially at this level where Barbs are such a strong game element.

We could likely test it. Play the game from the save like normal, at Normal speed, then play it again from the WB save-scenario, again at Normal speed. Try to duplicate your moves as exactly as possible, and when Barbs appear, go into the WB and see. If the regular save has some roaming archers, and the WB game has only warriors, then we know.

100% sure the barb. city I've razed in my game had the std. 4 archers in it(-1.2k bc when razed, but when it poped ~-2k, also had 4 archers); and there were both archers and warriors appearing right from the start.

Cool Snow, that makes it very likely the Barbs tech level at the start isnt important.

I just thought of another way to check. You can see what techs the Barbs have in WB mode, so you could check it at turn 1. I will do that with a test map right now, in fact, and let you know.

Right TMIT, thats the "process", I always just focus my eyes on the lower corner when the "choose Civ" screen comes up, since the one I want is the default, I just click through the OK quickly.

But as I said in my above post, once you re-start it as a Scenario, there is a chance the Barbs get messed up a tad. Scenario menu does NOT add techs, we know this from the Prince to Monarch thing. So the Barbarian Nation starts the game without knowledge of Archery. Now, they may just "obtain" that knowledge before they start appearing, I am not sure, but if they dont, it makes the game play much differently, especially at this level where Barbs are such a strong game element.

We could likely test it. Play the game from the save like normal, at Normal speed, then play it again from the WB save-scenario, again at Normal speed. Try to duplicate your moves as exactly as possible, and when Barbs appear, go into the WB and see. If the regular save has some roaming archers, and the WB game has only warriors, then we know.

I think it depends on the original game that was started. For example, noble games start with warriors everywhere, even if scenario'd to immortal. Similarly, monarch saves get the AIs having archers, EVEN ON NOBLE. I'd imagine it works very similar with immortal and that barbs would be immortal-class barbs if you make the worldbuilder off an immortal save and don't modify that part, but I could be mistaken. I often play with barbs off so I don't have much personal experience to cite here.

OK I did a test, and there is no doubt that the Barbs lose all their techs when you use a WB file. I started an Immortal game, checked, and the Barbarian Nation started with Ag, Hunting, and Archery. Then, I made a WB file, edited the speed, and restarted it as a scenario, and the Barb Nation has no techs at all.

I am going to play a few turns, until I see barbs, and check that instant.

maybe they tech in the mean time? till they show up?

wanted to do same test, but don't have the game near; that being said, in the 3 univs. I tried and 1 deity(the other I was wiped too fast to have barbs.) they had archers in cities(that I'm positive off). The rest I wasn't careful tbh...

OK, for what its worth, in my unofficial test, there is a problem with the Barbarian Nation and its techs.

I played a Normal speed Immortal level game, and checked the WB map on turn 1, Barbarians know Ag, Hunting, and Archers. On turn 30 (checking every 5 turns), the first barb non-animal units start appearing, and in my test game, a mixture of warriors and archers spawned on that turn. By turn 45, the first barb city appeared, with all archers inside.

I then played another game, created at Immortal level, normal speed. I went into the WB file, saved it, edited the speed, and restarted it as a scenario. I still kept the speed at Normal. On turn 1, the Barbarian Nation had zero techs. On turn 30, the barb non-animal units did spawn again, but they were all Warriors, and a check in the WB files showed the Barb Nation still had zero techs. I continued to check the WB every 5 turns.

By turn 45, the Barb Nation still had no techs, and only Warriors roaming around. Also, the first barb city had only Warriors defending it.

At turn 55, still only Warriors, and no techs. At turn 60, the Barb finally had Ag, Hunting, and Archery. Going back to 55 and checking every turn indicated that the Barbs learned those techs on turn 58.

At turn 64, I saw the first barb archer.

I think this makes it pretty clear there the Barbs are affected by taking save files and creating WB Scenarios with them. Just so you all know.

:goodjob: on the test

good to know

And there appears to be no way to "give" the barbs Archery in that situation.

when editing the file to reset turn, can't you just add the techs(I mean, I know I can type them, but won't they have any effect)?

when editing the file to reset turn, can't you just add the techs(I mean, I know I can type them, but won't they have any effect)?
The problem is that the Barbs have no listing in the WB file anywhere. If it was a case of actual AI Civs, yes. In fact, thats how I made my WB files for the PYL games in 2 versions, I took Archery away from the AI whose save it was going to be, and gave it to the AI whose save I created the time before.

But there is no "team" for the Barbs. In the WB files, each player, be it human or AI, has a "team" number assigned, and techs are given to that "team". Then, later in the file, each leader is assigned a team number. So Team 3 starts with knowledge of Ag, Mining, and Archery on Monarch, then later it is noted that Team 3 = China, with its leader and starting tile, etc. The Barbs dont have a team, and AFAIK that is the ONLY way to give AIs techs in the WB.

Its really a mess, I am kinda sorry that I even opened this can-o-worms WAY BACK when I tried to play the Gilgamesh LHC and won on Time in 1910 because I didnt alter the game speed from Normal to "None" or "Epic" when I created a scenario. That was what first led rolo and I to start investigating this concept of using WB saves instead of actual game saves.

That reminds me, TheMeInTeam wants to run a PYL, I should send him a PM about how I did it, because the first PYL was a bit of a disaster, with a bunch of Emperor-Immortal level players executing Warrior Rushes on Willy and such, LOL.

So I dont have a solution. Maybe we can contact the resident CFC WB save Guru, Dale (http://forums.civfanatics.com/member.php?u=14088).

Here is his thread called "An In-depth look at the WBS file". (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=135669) Its where rolo and I got much of our WB editing tips and ideas for the way we run the Nobles Club and the Lonely Hearts now.

You know, I was just thinking that this is probably a good way to sort of "get the hang" of Immortal. I find the most troubling thing about Immortal is trying to stop the Barbs AND expand AND keep my improvements, etc etc. By having the Barbs be warriors for a while, I can relax a bit and work out the expansion vs economy thing a bit more.

Kind of "Immortal Light", to copy a phrase I use in the Nobles Club (I dont make an "AI has Archery" WB in that series, so if you choose Monarch, its really "Monarch Light")

I am going to have a real go at this game I think. Barbs chewed me up in my "from the save" try, but if I WB it, play at Epic, the Barbs wont be as devastating.

Honestly, the games where I start without teching archery 1st 4 techs(supposing I didn't find something in bfc) are those in which I know I'll play poorly :p

anyway, I think the ai will be the only one taking advantage of warrior defended cities(even if minor advantage) in form of pillage cash(they don't wait for cities to hit 2 then attack) because at that time you can't do much and either the barbs. are promoted to archer afterwards or something(no clue, maybe the ai raze them fast - 4 games aren't enough of a test sample, but really didn't see any warrior defended city)...

At least, as marathon player(so many turns of barbs. spawning) I've learnt fog busting city cities and taking out 4 archers/whatever asap to be the Holy Grail; at least deity barbs. are quick to teach you that :p

Anyway, I don't think that increasing the speed will ease the prob. even with 20 more safe turns. On the other hand, playing on what speed you're accustomed, certainly will do ;)

I don't have much time these days so I tried to keep it simple.


4000BC-1360AD



3960BC - Settled Aksum 1W to grab cow.

Between 3960-1400BC - Settled Gondar at stone+gold.

1400BC - Settled Lalibella all the way south, grabbing banana+cow+horses+gems.

1040BC - Settled Addis Ababa on top of southern silk, getting sugar+dye+rice.

750BC - GS, settled in capital.

725BC - Mids in capital, rep.

600BC - Settled Yeha on top of southern iron, grabbing corn+2xgems.

525BC - Map.

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/7483/civ4screenshot0225cg1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

200BC - Settled Debre Berhan, incense+cow+fish.

150BC - Shwe Paya in capital, paci.

100BC - GS, academy in capital.

75AD - HG in capital.

200AD - Adulis grabbing eastern iron+2xwine+cow+silk.

250AD - GS, bulb phil.

325AD - Monty dow Willem.

640AD - GE, settle in capital.

680AD - Settled Qohaito all the way east, corn+fish.

840AD - UoS in capital. Also got to lib but I delay it (for a long time).

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/213/civ4screenshot0293mx1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/377/civ4screenshot0294xx5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/629/civ4screenshot0295ak5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


940AD - Raze eastern barb city.

1030AD - Settled Matara, eastern stone+fish.

1070AD - First to economics, free GM, settled. I got another GM earlier, which is already at Gilgamesh's capital, waiting for gold bomb.

1080AD - GP, golden age.

1120AD - Monty peace with Willem.

1190AD - GE, settled.

1200AD - 1 turn till lib. :rolleyes: Take riffling for free.

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/1862/civ4screenshot0332ns0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/9296/civ4screenshot0333ic5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


1210AD - 2500+ gold to upgrade CR2 maces to riffles+switch to nationhood.

1230AD - Bribe Monty to war with Willem and dow Willem myself.

1240AD - Capture Middelburg.

1260AD - Capture Rotterdam & GG born.

1310AD - Capture Maastricht.

1320AD - Capture Delft.

1350AD - Capture Cuman & Amsterdam. Board leader now.

1360AD - Getting annoyed by Willems Grenadiers killing of my riffles once in a while .. so I decided to call it a day.

http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/5958/civ4screenshot0361fz1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/2808/civ4screenshot0357qp1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/1292/civ4screenshot0358bi1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/7358/civ4screenshot0359ea2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/271/civ4screenshot0360rc8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


Game plan: Wipe out Willem -> get cannons -> kill Monty -> get Buddhist shrine -> kill Charle -> space.

Tbh I dno if I will finish this one, this is pretty much won already.

Played 30 turns and stopping for advice. I am trying to post a detailed report here because my early game is usually not as optimal as the early game of other posters, so please help me micromanage :)

4000BC - 2680BC

Settled in place and started teching agriculture->BW->Wheel
Build was worker->warrior->warior partial->worker (at size 3)->warrior
I received 1 warrior from a hut and the agriculture tech 1 turn before completion :(

My 2 workers are currently working on connecting the bronze so I can build some decent defense against barbarians.

I have met my neighbours - 1st was Willem, so I assume he is the closest, then Monty who is budhist and now Chalres the Great who is hindu and is likely to keep Monty busy.

Scouting reveals some great land:
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk162/silverbullet_sz/zara/Civ4ScreenShot0002.jpg

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk162/silverbullet_sz/zara/Civ4ScreenShot0000.jpg

My thoughts:
I REALLY want to build a city which will get to work all 3 gem tiles. This way I can specilze it for commerce. However, I need early iron working for this.
I currently make 9 beakers per turn, which will make iron working take 28 turns, and even more if I settle the gems spot first.

So I need to get more commerce. Therefore, I want to settle Fur-City first.
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk162/silverbullet_sz/zara/Civ4ScreenShot0005.jpg
After working 2 fur tiles I should double my current beaker output.
Also, the AIs seem to be far away, so I believe I have a shot at taking the jungle gems with a 3rd city.

Fur city will need a food resource, so next tech should be either fishing or animal husbandry, depending on where I plan to settle it. I am inclined to go for the fish spot, because it will still leave room for 2 cities west of the capital (cows and fish-bronze). It also eliminates a useless tundra tile.

After fishing I will go directly to iron working, grow the captial to max while building an axe, and then a settler, and another axe+settler.

A general question about oromo warriors - what are they good for except for upgrading and creating drill 3 or 4 rilfes?
On immortal it is reasonable to assume your opponent will have knights by the time you have oromos, so you will need some pikes to defend your stack and some trebuchets to take city defences down and cause collateral damage to defending knights and longbows.
I can see their value after softening the enemy- first strikes means more chances to escape combat unharmed, so less healing time, but it doesn't seem too strong, compared to musketeers or janissaries.
Any thoughts?

Drill I also opens up other promotions, Cover, Pinch, Shock, and the Combat line.

I thought they worked out well against Justinian in the Religious Zealot PYL game, was a blast. I like them, I think Zara is a strong leader to Draft after Muskets, so you go for Cannons and Pikes instead of trebs.

I like Zara a lot, but not because of the UU.
I don't see the big advantage of cannon/oromo over cannon/musket combination. At worst you would need extra 2~3 muskets in your SOD to get the same job done.
Oromos would be better in defending cities you capture, but how much of an issue is it anyway in musket/cannon wars?

I haven't been in the situation but I imagine it can be quite nice to be able to give cover shock and pinch straight away when you draft level 2 units as opposed to just giving them combat 1.

@silverbullet
This depends on game style but your cow-furs city would allow for the capital-satellite tactic, as I call it.
Early on, you almost always want your capital working high food and high production tiles. This (and the low happy cap) delays setting up a strong bureaucracy-capital.
I situation like you are in I would settle to the north, the city will be able to develop no less than 6 cottages, 4 of them riverside while the capital is busy building settlers, workers, troops and infra.
Once your happy cap is higher and you get Civil Service and an academy - you get it.

The fish can be used for a "drunken sailor" city"

@silverbullet



Seeing as my micro management is really bad I'm probably not going to give the best advice. ;)

A bit different start for me as I settled 1W when I saw the riverside cows with the scout. My 2nd city was built for the stone/gold. Initially it just worked the gold without growing. Great for early commerce and getting the early techs.

One other option I like to use for early IW is scientists. With Zara we get cheap libraries so don't take long to build and that helps cut the time dramatically.

I can't say to much as I have already finished :). Report to follow when I get time. ;)

@silverbullet



Seeing as my micro management is really bad I'm probably not going to give the best advice. ;)

A bit different start for me as I settled 1W when I saw the riverside cows with the scout. My 2nd city was built for the stone/gold. Initially it just worked the gold without growing. Great for early commerce and getting the early techs.

One other option I like to use for early IW is scientists. With Zara we get cheap libraries so don't take long to build and that helps cut the time dramatically.

I can't say to much as I have already finished :). Report to follow when I get time. ;)




@Sleepless

I stupidly moved the scout 1 NW instead of 1NE and lost the cows. You placement is much better, giving extra cows and bronze to the city, also enabling the gold city to share the corn.
Anyway, I will try to make the best from this start.
EDIT: I just repopened the 4000BC save and the computer even highlightst the blue circle at the spot you settled. I guess I should listen to the computer suggestions more seriously.

Well, a very interesting situation. I always hate non-spiritual leaders, but had some time to wait so decided to experiment with Zara for a bit. My micromanagement got utterly terrible in many areas of this game, but that's mainly because I can't really get an urge to focus much when dropping down to Immortal. I'm sure I would have done much better otherwise...

Actually, I did do quite well, perhaps a little too well. The game ended sooner than I wanted, as I pulled off a diplomatic vote, but I wanted my last war to last even longer, haha! Some interrsting things happened, (quite, as I did a lot of new experimental strategies). In fact, I got DoW'ed on by a super power & his vassal, and he marched a huge SoD right infront of my one city, while he alone had between a FACTOR of 5 to 6 times the strength of my own power rating. AND I STILL KICKED THEIR ASS, without losing a single city. Sounds impossible, but that's really what happened (AI is just too incredibly stupid). And yes, that's FACTOR of 5-6, not just 5-6 times higher.

I'll try to get some of the stuff posted later this evening..

Alright done.... here it is.

Good luck to the rest.





Alright, I'm not going to spend much time on a step by step writeup, so here are the quick highlights.

First turn I moved scout 1 position NW, and saw cows. Decided to gamble and shift capital 1 spot to the left. Usually I avoid repositioning capitals as it's burned me too many times in the past, but lately I seem to be taking after Snaaty a lot (they seem to work ok for him!)

I decided to try to just do a bunch of rexing, as what else are you going to do with Zara? So I tried to grab a few places, and cut off some areas. Well, I don't know... I found stone near by, and I found it really a big waste that I didn't revert to my standard doctrines! Argggh.

Well I eventually did start to use it... I started to purposely work on wonders like Pyramids after a while, CI, and A. Wat so that I could PURPOSELY let another civ beat me to them, then I could grab lots of wealth instead, and use that to help fund my overly expanded cities while keeping a tech lead (games on Immortal are very forgiving!)

There was one wonder I did build in BC though, that was the lighthouse, as I wanted to be able to support my over-expansion, haha!

After that, nothing much happened until I hit liberalism. I chose nationalism like always, and then worked on Taj, and also I changed tactics here, as I went after Divine Right! I NEVER go after a useless tech, but I figured, I have stone why not build the Spiral thing, and the AI is so stupid, that I could backsell it later.

Ohh I forgot, I also built another wonder, the UoS, and decided to keep it for teching purposes (as I was able to finally support my cities at that time).

After that, I went constitution to open up Rep... and since we went that far, why stop there? I went to democracy, for only the sole purpose of unlocking the SoL, which I built.

After that, I went up the media route. I was planning to go for the Internet, then win space race through espionage tactics, but realized there was a chance I could win diplomatic victory, so decided to give myself two ways to win. Despite I NEVER go for diplo usually.

Anyhow, Joao spun out of control a bit, and ended up completing RnR before me, including Hollywood, but I did at least grab Broadway, Eiffel, and..... Cristo. I would have to say, Cristo was an absolute godsend to me! As I really was crippled the whole time without my spiritual traits! After that, I really started to take off again.... Unfortunately...I would run into problems soon enough.

Anyhow, I was friendly with Charle, and Gilga. I also got Cathrine on my side, but I had to do a bit of spywork and missionary work to make that happen. And then....

Disaster struck.

Willem, decides to DoW on me, despite I had a defence pact with 3 other nations!!!!

Ok, I admit, I was going in builder mode, and his power rating to my own was a factor of 5 to 6 times higher, but.......

I had 3 other nations on my side no? Is this another change in 3.17? Or is the AI just... too stupid as always.

Well, he marches one GIGANTIC SoD stack full of artillery right next to one of my border cities. A city with just an axeman still defending it, Ahaha! But least it was fortified!

Oh well, that same turn my option for Diplo resolutions came up, of course I chose STOP THE WAR WITH ZARA!

It passes, despite Willem and his vassal Monte voted no. (IDIOT AI, all they had to do was defy it, yes?)

That meant, I had about 10 turns to build up an army out of NOTHING basically, or be R.I.P. (That's what happens sometimes when you're a builder at heart). But no problem, I got my spiritual trait back.

Zara then had to march his army all the way to the West, in order to hit Charle's cities. That's interesting, because charle did absolutely NOTHING to defend his cities. Now.. You'd think with protective traits he maybe could hold his own. Nope, he hardly sent any defenders at all to his cities. Now that realllllllly pissses me off. I know god damn well if I had DoW on charle, he'd be whip/drafting like a mother f***er and have a hundred units in that city in a single turn. But nope, not vs another AI apparently.... It was like he just wanted to give his cities away.

I had the option of gifting Charle defenders, but what was the point? He'd just waste them, hell I once had a game where after gifting a whole bunch of units to my vassal in a DEITY game, it decided to DISBAND them all! So... NEVER AGAIN!!!!

I just kept stockpiling tones and tones of tanks, with tones and tones of drafted units. Oh yeas, I also even built the 3G-Dam, then decided to just stop teching altogether and built tones of wealth since there was no point going further up the tech chain.

I kept following Willem's mega-SoD as it kept moving from city to city of charle's. I ended up losing it at one point, and couldn't find it ANYWHERE!!!!

Then stupidly realized, he had put it on the same tile as my own SoD, haha! But I couldn't DoW it anyway because I had to wait for my 10 turns of peace to expire!!!!

Luckily, Charle didn't vassal over in that time (perhaps because he'd still have 2 other nations to contend with if he did). Well, as soon as I was through my peace contract, I DoW and delivered a verv nice blow.... I totally oblitered his SoD of artillery, and took 2 cities back from Charle in just one turn. Next turn Willem wanted to give me lots of gold for peace, despite he was close to top in lead, ahah. Too late now....

I must say.. There is nothing more fun, then taking a ton of tanks, and smashing them into a ton of artillery units that are defending a city! Ohhh, and I totally crushed a stack of cavalry too that he foolishly did not upgrade to helicopters!!!!!

There really is not much good I can say about the AI's utterly terrible way of fighting wars. Even with rediculous numbers of units, it's just..... so bad!

Anyhow, my masterplan for Diplo vic kept going the way I didn't want it. Even though Joao had more territory than Catherine, she still kept getting put on the list with me, so that was messing up all the votes. Arggggg..

Oh well, I decided to push on fighting anyhow...

And then... just as I was having TOO much fun with obliterating Willem, Joao suddenly was my contender on the Diplo vic vote. And that was fine with me, as Catherine now voted for me instead of against me, and I pulled it home.


Grrrr.. And I was sooooooooo looking forward to finishing off my continent.

BTW, Charle offter to FRIENDLY vassal to me. I took it because i didn't want him vasseling to the DARK SIDE. But I had never seen this ask to me before, and I assume it's part of the 3.17 patch changes. Ohhhh, and it is interesting how Willem didn't go after his culture vic as he used to always do in 3.13.

@Obsolete
Why don't you use photobucket for screenshots? This way it will not count towards your attachment limit on CFC (and it's also convenient to place the pictures inside spoiler tags this way). Then you can actually use the saved space to post saved games.

800BC - The End



Carrying on from the last spoiler both Charles and Wil settled where I wanted to so I ended up with the 3 gem site as my southern border. After this I decided to play peacefully and see what happened whilst settling the rest of my lands.

Monte managed to get the tech lead. ;)

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh168/SJG12345/univZara/Civ4ScreenShot0045.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh168/SJG12345/univZara/Civ4ScreenShot0047.jpg

As I expected later on he attacked Wil, Charlie came in on Wil's side and Monte eventually became Wil's vassal. Straight after Charles voluntarily vassaled to Wil as well. Another good reason for going the peaceful route. :lol:

I missed the GLib but did manage the GLh so my tech rate stayed high.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh168/SJG12345/univZara/Civ4ScreenShot0046.jpg

A view of my lands.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh168/SJG12345/univZara/Civ4ScreenShot0048.jpg

No Glib but first to Lib and took steel. Wonder where this is heading. :rolleyes:

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh168/SJG12345/univZara/Civ4ScreenShot0049.jpg

With the GLh I was able to get the tech lead.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh168/SJG12345/univZara/Civ4ScreenShot0050.jpg

All along I had planned on an early space victory but I would need some more land with Wil being my main target. After Wil had changed his religion from our Buddhist block to Taoism Charlie came to me asking to be my vassal. As I was 2 turns from attacking Wil I doubted I would keep him from harm but didn't let on and gladly accepted. :D

After reading an article on vassals not trading techs if you have another vassal they don't like I decided both Wil and Monte should both be removed from my island. ;) Didn't quite work out as I planned but at least Charlie traded non spaceship techs to me. After a long drawn out war Monte and Wil were no more.

Not sure what the rest of the world thought about this.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh168/SJG12345/univZara/Civ4ScreenShot0057.jpg

Then again. :lol:

A while later sweet natured Cathie came and asked if I wanted a dp so.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh168/SJG12345/univZara/Civ4ScreenShot0059.jpg

Good that will let me finish my spaceship off nice and peacefully.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh168/SJG12345/univZara/Civ4ScreenShot0060.jpg

And off she goes. I was hoping for an earlier finish but having to tech everything myself proved a real bottleneck. I know Fusion and Genetics were only taking 3 turns each to research so not to sure on the best way to improve my spaceship times. Any ideas?

Sweet Cathie came with another offer.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh168/SJG12345/univZara/Civ4ScreenShot0061.jpg

Anyone ever mention she can't be trusted. :lol:

The UN to the rescue. Not that I really needed it. ;)

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh168/SJG12345/univZara/Civ4ScreenShot0062.jpg

Leading to:

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh168/SJG12345/univZara/Civ4ScreenShot0064.jpg

My best spaceship score but still 30 years later than my earliest launch.

Anothe fun game. Thanks Silverbullet.

@Obsolete
Why don't you use photobucket for screenshots? This way it will not count towards your attachment limit on CFC (and it's also convenient to place the pictures inside spoiler tags this way). Then you can actually use the saved space to post saved games.

I'll try to see if I can get ahold of decent hosting server again.

Anyhow, I mostly did the game just for kicks. But now I sort of wish there was another challenge.

BTW, what happened to the deity ones? Is that idea canned?


@ Sleepless using Liberalism to take Steel, I never did that, and makes me wonder a bit about your tech path. I see you snagged lib very late, which would explain that tech choice, but it seems strange considering the Pyramids, I would think you should have hit it much earlier. Was that an intensional delay?

There will be a deity challenge soon enough. If you are eager to start, check the save game I posted in the "deity win percentage" thread. I lost it but I suck :)

@Obsolete

One of my big failings is use of GPs. I don't usually get them early enough so most of the time I fail to be the first to Lib anyway. :) In this game with the GLh my tech rate was pretty good and I was keeping an eye on the AI so I knew I could leave Lib as late as possible. I think I had a couple of turns left on Chem when Charlie eventually got Edu.

The plan was always to attack Wil for his land and as I didnt't have horses the cannon/rifles seemed the best way to go. Also managed to get the GM from Economics which is unusual for me as well.

Immortal/Epic

Retired 910 AD

Settled in place. Hut = 40gold. AG at first of course. BW after. Monty founded hindu, also met willem. Met charlie. As of 3000 BC I note that we have a TON of room an can easily get 8-10 cities peacefully. Charlie and monty have different religions and there will be fireworks.

We have copper. Priority settling will be the gems site for blocking/commerce/ownage. 3x Gems! With the eventual religious war I'll want to take a side to shave some cities.

In 2375 BC I settle gondar between the plains cow and gold - this city is food poor but the :) and commerce will be early welcome boosts.

After pottery I decide to go IW to hook up the gems ASAP once I grab that city. It may be possible to beat Willem east to the dye/sugar/silk/rice site also.

Buddhism spreads to me in 1800 but I'm biding my time. Willem converts to hinduism shortly after which may mean it necessary to take on charlie. Actually monty and I have him reasonably hemmed in so he won't be too huge - I might consider a sword war here if Monty is game for it. This is especially cool because willem will go FR and allow Monty and myself to smack him down also.

In 1450 BC I settle lalibela to claim the corn and 3 gems. 1 tile from the coast is :( but I'm looking for short term here. IW in a couple turns means I'll have the gems hooked up soon. I have a couple axes on D already too.

1350 :eek:! The 3x gem city has iron also!

1000 Charlie is rapidly expanding, and even has a city SOUTH of my gem city now. A lot of it is useless jungle ATM. I wonder if I can bum rush his capitol and 1-2 other good cities?

875 BC I grab writing and instantly OB with Monty. I want hindu and allies. Badly. Teching masonry for some walls also.

800 Willem, in the same religion as Monty, declares on Monty?!

425 BC I declare on charlie with 4 swords, 6 axes, and a spear, and I'm heading straight for his money cities.
335 BC I capture Aachen. Barely. 4 units garrisoned in it now. Charlies extra intelligent counterattack forces are attacking the walled hill city of lalibela.
305 BC Charlie is actually willing to take peace without me giving him a city back, but I want to take away his factors of production some more first. The target city? Vienna, his only copper city.
200 BC Except that the city is HEAVILY defended, so I take a cease fire.
20 BC I declare on Charlie again. I doubt 4 axes, and 2 archers, and a catapult will hold out against 11 swords, 8 axes, and two spears!
5 BC I lost my GG sword at 85% odds since I was taking a chance :(. I capture the city. Charlie has lost his access to his only metal.
10 AD annoyingly, nobody has spread hindu to me. This may have something to do with monty/dutch still being at war...! Also note that "hidden modifiers" - otherwise known as the default game being full of lying !@#%$, gave me -1 for declaring on Willem's "friend", whom he's cautious with and in a different religion than. Logical.
70 AD Hindu spreads to me and I instantly adopt it.
85 AD Gilga declares war on charlie. He's not even on this continent as far as I can tell. Thankfully he lacks feudalism so we can't have any cheese occurring just yet.
250 AD I capture Prague.
400 AD I capture Nuremburg, getting my 3rd gem back and taking horses ;).
415 AD Monty capitulates to Willem :/
565 AD Charlie is off the !@#$ing map. I hate protective alot now.
640 AD I'm afraid I'm gonna get smacked down by Willem, who's cautious over my denials to go to war with monty :(.
745 AD Someone builds the pyramids :eek:. I check real quick just to make sure this is really immortal :lol:.
910 AD Willem declares on me, I'm toast :p.

Until 250 BC

The Ethiopian Golden Age of Peaceful Expansion.
This map is exceptional. There is so room to expand AND there is the commerce to pay for it AND be in a tech lead after that.

After having scouted 3 gems in the jungle I decide that they must be in Ethiopian hands, but we don't have iron working. so I build another city to grab fish and 2xfur to help our research, so we can get iron working asap.

After wheel I tech fishing->pottery->iron working.
2000 BC I get a lucky event of discovering gold in the capital!!!
1640 BC iron working is in. That was quick with 1 gold and 2 furs.

1520 Lallibella is founded to grab 3 gems+corn+iron (1 tile away from coast, but I think it's worth it).

1320 BC writing is in.

I decide to tech alphabet next. I don't have marble so I don't think I will go for great library, and I don't think any of the rivals here will get alphabet anytime soon so I will be able to trade for it. Also, it will enable me to get better relations with them.

1200 BC Willem completes the great wall.

900 BC Alphabet is done. WOW, they are really backwards, I have nothing useful to trade for. Some backfilling for smaller techs next and self research of math.

750 BC Addis Ababa has been founded to grab 2 dye and silk. It will be a nice commerce city after calendar.
I have now a nice commerce empire, but very little production, and a very weak army.

The diplomatic status seems good:
Charlemagne founded Hinduism, Monty founded Buddhism, Willem adopted Buddhism.
Charlemagne is not dangerous yet, he is almost as weak as me. Willem is strong, but we have no shared border yet and he has a different religion from Charlie, he should fear him more than me.


525BC Yeha founded to block Charlie and grab cows+gold.

My first GS goes to build an academy in Lallibella - best commerce city and it needs the extra culture push to take over Charlie's lands.

Monty demands Mathematics and I agree. Now he is pleased.

325BC I finally get monarchy from Monty for Alphabet. My first tech trade.

Debra Berhan fonded to grab cows+fish+incense.

275BC currency is in.

Tech status:
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk162/silverbullet_sz/zara/Civ4ScreenShot0017.jpg
It's not everyday we see Monty as a tech leader :)

Overview of our lands

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk162/silverbullet_sz/zara/Civ4ScreenShot0014.jpg
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk162/silverbullet_sz/zara/Civ4ScreenShot0015.jpg
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk162/silverbullet_sz/zara/Civ4ScreenShot0016.jpg

Until 980 AD.

175 BC
I decide to covert to budhism, which might have been premature, because I don't have philosophy and not running organized religion.
I annoy charlie and he has enough on his hands at the moment, but I am not too worried about him.

I have neglected GPP production by skipping literature and philosophy and teching directly to civil service->paper. I decided that since the AI are backwards here and there is still room to expand and good commerce I will focus on that.
Also, with my tech lead I could probably attack Charlie with maces vs. archers. I need to focus on getting good whipping cities.
Tech status 375 AD:
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk162/silverbullet_sz/zara/Civ4ScreenShot0018.jpg

I have moved the capital to Lalibela:
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk162/silverbullet_sz/zara/Civ4ScreenShot0019.jpg

Soon enough Charlie declares war on me (500 AD), but I am ready.

I let him suicide his ancient stack before going out with my macemen to capture Mainz:
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk162/silverbullet_sz/zara/Civ4ScreenShot0020.jpg

Charlie just got feudalism, but I have engineering now and a few cities dedicated to whipping trebuchets.

Willem has unfortunately built Shwegadon Paya and is now in his favourite civic of free religion and therefore cautious with me. I will have to be careful and watch him closely.

Charlie (and my neglect of GPP) has forced me to delay liberalism quite a lot, but it is still within reach. I use me 2nd GS to bulb education and it due in 7 turns.

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk162/silverbullet_sz/zara/Civ4ScreenShot0022.jpg

I don't need such a big army for Charlie anymore, but Willem is next and my Trebuchets will see a lot of use in his lands.

Willem has only 1 source of horse that he recently stole from me culturally, and he doesn't have guilds yet. This means that if I pillage this horse on the 1st turn of war I will not see many knights, meaning my Oromo warriors will be unstoppable.

980 until the end



Despite being late to liberalism I manage to grab it and take astronomy for free.
In retrospect it proved to be a poor choice because soon after that all the AIs teched it or traded for it with someone else.

1130 AD The Holy Roman civilization has been destroyed. I get the great lighthouse.

I will wait a bit for the HRE cities to come out of revolt and grow to a decent size so I can draft them. I tech nationalism and chemistry->steel, while Monty is kind enough to tech those techs while I am halfway there and trade it with me.

1340 AD - I decide to trade chemistry to Willem for 1300 gold so I can mass upgrade my trebuchets. With drafted oromos and cannons I have no trouble taking over willems lands, especially since he was "smart" enough to park half of his army in this border city:

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk162/silverbullet_sz/zara/Civ4ScreenShot0007.jpg

I pillage the horses on the first turn of war so I don't have to worry about knights.

And this is the same city after the attack:
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk162/silverbullet_sz/zara/Civ4ScreenShot0008.jpg

I have so many hapiness resources that I didn't really need the globe theatre, and war weariness never became an issue.

I used the cash from the war to tech military science, in case Willem in fast enough to get rifles, I will have something to do with all my promoted macemen.

1505 AD - the dutch are almost destroyed. I don't want to vassalize them because I still want to trade and I want to keep both Gilgamesh and Monty friendly.

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk162/silverbullet_sz/zara/Civ4ScreenShot0009.jpg

I am a bit behind in tech, but this is easily recoverable with the extra land I have over everyone.
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk162/silverbullet_sz/zara/Civ4ScreenShot0010.jpg

I also have the masoleum built by Willem, and I have only made 2 GP in the game so far, which means I can run ahead with multiple golden ages.
I will actually try to get sushi this game. If the next GP is not a merchant, I will use him to run a golden age +caste+pacifism to get a merchant somewhere.

Cathrine gets bribed by Willem and declares on me, which is great, it is an oppurtunity to steal the city she settled on my landmass because I was too busy warring. conquer another island city she has nearby and a barbarian city with 3 seafood resources, which will help future sushi corp.

After destorying Willem I attack Monty and vassalize him (I just really wanted his shrine :)).
With Sushi being mine, the AI has no chance to compete. I even manage to found mining inc. although I don't really need it.

I can choose any victory I want. I go for diplomatic, as it is the fastest and I am tired of micromamanaging so many cities.

1800 AD I win a diplomatic victory.

Summary of my game (it was a little while ago)


Settled in place, second city was a production city to the Southeast on the plains hill.

Grabbed two more cities on the ithsmus, but didn't make it farther than that.

Built the GW, although I didn't want it very much (I was waiting for some tech, BW or IW maybe). Built the GLH, which I did want. Maybe if I hadn't built the GW I could have settled farther south, and the game would have gone better.

Built a ~lot~ of coastal cities in Ethiopia, anywhere I could get a food surplus. This went decently... I don't know, though.

In late Medieval I got fairly early Gunpowder and Nationalism and drafted Oromos. Attacked Willem, but he had too many Knights (and superior power in general) and I didn't have enough Pikemen. I reloaded and realized it would be much better to attack Charlemagne, who didn't have Iron. Got his core and vassalized his two border cities.

Willem was a bit ahead so I just teched along, missed the Internet (IIRC) but might still have gotten space, since Willem's capital was close enough to the Holy Roman border to attack and raze with airplanes and 2-move units after he launched.

I also came close to a diplomatic, but even with my best diplo and espionage diplo (and reloading to try different tactics) I couldn't quite get it.

Then Willem attacked me, and IIRC I fought him off OK, but kind of lost interest in the game.

The plan was always to attack Wil for his land and as I didnt't have horses the cannon/rifles seemed the best way to go. Also managed to get the GM from Economics which is unusual for me as well.

I should take another look at my tech paths, and see about possibly going after these in the proper occasion. I'm just not used to being too far ahead of the AI so I am definitely not playing optimally on maps like this.

Anyhow, it's interesting seeing all the differences between the players. Still looking forward to the next...

Well since it's been 1/2 a year and I suck less, let's get revenge on this one:

1905 UN


http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss213/CivIVTMIT/IU%20zara%20revenge/Civ4ScreenShot0001.jpg
http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss213/CivIVTMIT/IU%20zara%20revenge/Civ4ScreenShot0002.jpg
http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss213/CivIVTMIT/IU%20zara%20revenge/Civ4ScreenShot0003.jpg
http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss213/CivIVTMIT/IU%20zara%20revenge/Civ4ScreenShot0004.jpg
http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss213/CivIVTMIT/IU%20zara%20revenge/Civ4ScreenShot0005.jpg
http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss213/CivIVTMIT/IU%20zara%20revenge/Civ4ScreenShot0006.jpg
http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss213/CivIVTMIT/IU%20zara%20revenge/Civ4ScreenShot0009.jpg

Cannons and draft oromos for 1.5 wars (got to rifles vs monty).

After that it got ugly. Willem gets to internet and mech infantry, and I invade him with infantry/arty/AT. The ATs get up to 50% interception with good spamming, only for me to find out that willem somehow has no oil! So, they shoot down airships like crazy. That also means it's mech infantry only that threatens me on the ground. After cutting down his SoD arty and PS just powered through, and that was enough to win UN thanks to keeping diplo with gilga.

End tech situation was BAD though. Then again, apparently infantry/arty/PS can beat anything :/.

@TMIT

So after half a year this loss was still bothering you? :lol:

^^ indeed, talking about long grudges!!

All of my IU losses bother me ;). I periodically go back to play games I've lost in the past to see if I've improved enough.

I have that kind of memory though. If a professor emphasized something heavily 5 weeks ago, I remember it. If something was really bothering someone/caused them to do something, I might remember it for years. One of the reasons I hate BUG mod is that it slows down the game, while for most of the early game I remember the majority what's going on in my cities if I have less than 10 or so.

Hell, I even remember things like which city I chose for heroic epic when playing with my friend last summer on an earthlike tectonics map, including things like losing a city to barbs (god that was embarassing), getting GLH in my 2nd city settled to the east, TGL in GP farm at the southern tip of Africa (I spawned kind of south central there), etc etc.

It's less a grudge than going back to see how much I've improved. I got roasted alive in my first attempt, and winning something that you couldn't beat before is just delicious.