All Leaders Challenge Pre-Game Show:
Game #25 - Celts/Boudica

http://www.civfanatics.net/methos/info_center/images/civ4/leaders/Celts_Boudica.jpg



In the next ALC game, I'll be playing as Boudica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boudica), leader of the Celts--one of the new leaders added in the Beyond the Sword expansion pack. The purpose of this thread is to discuss, before the game, how to best exploit this particular leader's characteristics, which is the main feature and purpose of the ALC series. Just so we're clear, I'm playing with the Beyond the Sword expansion pack with its most recent official patch (3.17) as well as Solver's unofficial patch (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=279724). (I should also note that I elected to allow tanks to still get barrage promotions.)

Here's the fact sheet:
Traits: Aggressive (Free Combat I promotion of melee and gunpowder units; double production speed of Barracks and Drydock) and Charismatic (+1 happiness per city; -25% XP needed for unit promotions; +1 happiness from Monument, Broadcast Tower).
Starting Techs: Hunting and Mysticism
Unique Unit: Gallic Warrior (Replaces Swordsman; Strength: 6, Movement: 1, Cost: 40; Unique Characteristics: Starts with Guerilla I.)
Unique Building: Dun (Replaces Wall; Cost: 50; Unique Characteristics: Free Guerilla I promotion for units built in the city)I'll be playing with Choose Religions on, just for flavour. I'm undecided on the map type, so we can discuss that. The game speed will be Epic, as usual. The difficulty level will be Immortal.

Boudica is a natural warmonger.

I mean, come on. She's got two of the best warmonger leader traits: Aggressive for the free Combat I and cheap barracks and drydocks, and Charismatic for the low-XP promotions. What a combination! (Full disclosure: I did play an off-line game once with unrestricted leaders on, as Queen Boudica of Rome. Agg/Cha Praetorians... can you say, "ridiculously overpowered?" :lol: ) With free Combat I, her melee and gunpowder units have a head start and will accumulate promotions at breakneck speed.

The drawback here is that she doesn't have an obvious economic advantage. A lot of conquering could wind up destroying the Celtic economy. I would argue, however, that Boudica has a subtle economic advantage thanks to Charismatic: her cities can be just a little larger, especially early on--meaning they can grow to either work more cottages or run more specialists, depending upon the type of economy that's chosen. I'd lean towards SE myself, but its success may depend on the map.

The rest of her unique characteristics leave me cold, however. Her starting techs aren't bad, but they're not helpful to a warmonger. Hunting for Scouts? They can't attack, remember? I will try to leverage them to assist in scouting out enemy locations. And Mysticism? I don't expect to be founding any religions. However, maybe I should try to use it to build Stonehenge for an automatic +1 happy in all new cities until Astronomy comes along. And diverting hammers from monuments to barracks and unit would help war efforts. Hmmm...

The unique unit and unique building are even less thrilling. Honestly, Gallic Warriors are a pretty lame unit; Swordsmen, on which they're based, are offensive units, yet under the Celts they have a defensive promotion. Couldn't they have given the free Guerrilla I to Axemen instead? Anyway, the best thing I can say about Gallic Warriors is that at least, unlike Jaguars, they aren't weaker than the unit they replace.

And the Dun... hey, a free promotion is nice, but again, why that one? I'm not saying it's useless; I give Guerilla promotions to a couple of units a game, just to protect a stack while it's on a hill. It's just not that useful a promotion for scads of units. And for the Gallic Warriors, well... like Robin Williams used to say, look up "redundant" in the dictionary, and it says "redundant". (What's with Firaxis associating Celts and hills anyway? If that's based on Alesia, someone should remind Firaxis that the Celts lost that one. Come to think of it, the Romans eventually handed Boudica's no doubt finely-shaped tush to her as well.)

I suppose the lacklustre UU and UB compensate for Boudica's awesome warring traits. Basically, she lacks the advantages most other leaders have, so I'll have to make the most of the few she possesses.

Okay, now it's your turn.

Scout SW, then settle in place.

Boudic'a biggest problem is getting over anxious to leverage that great pair of, er traits! Yeah traits!

You need a few good early cities and concentrate on getting the food techs. Relying on archery as the second tech while delaying mining/BW for food, Pottery, writing could be an option. Also an early religion followed by STonehenge (for the free monument and the GPPs) get's her a stronge chance for an early shrine to pay for her military. Then again I am uncertain how easy it is to get an early religion on Immortal.

Her UU requires copper or iron, that helps a little. The UB will allow you to drag along an archery unit with an attack force which is an excellent defended on hills. Also Guerilla III Swords have +50% withdrawl chances.

Once you get over the inital empire setup, it's time to roll. I would suggest one of those Big/Little maps, chance for alot of room to fight.

My 2 cents!

Scout SW, then settle in place.
If it was funny the first time, it's still gotta be funny the 100th time, right? :rolleyes: ;)

Played Celts twice.

First time: went all-out, ended up in economic disaster. I did salvage the game, but it wasn't pretty.

Second time: found a religion, build stonehenge and adopt state religion to give you +3 hapiness, to state the obvious. Focus on farms to grow your cities larger than everyone else. Build a temple in your capital to get your great prophet faster for the holy shrine, then keep playing your expanding and builder game. No need for war.

I'm undecided on the map type, so we can discuss that.

My feeling is that if the advantage of a Guerrilla promotion doesn't show on a Highlands map, then there isn't one.

You covered a lot of this already in your introductory post, but I pretyped this earlier this morning in anticipation of the thread ;), so I'll post it anyway ...

I want to preemptively post some rebuttal points for all the people who are inevitably going to tell you how awful the Celts are, because their UU sucks, and blah blah blah, we've heard it all before ...

The Gallic Warrior doesn't suck. Nor does the Dun. They aren't unbelievably fantastically overpowered like Praetorians or Ikhandas, but they're no worse than their non-unique counterparts (unlike Jaguars which are worse in some situations). Gallic Warriors are regular swordsmen plus simpler resource needs and a free Guerilla I promotion. Dun's are regular walls plus free Guerilla I promotions. That's good, not sucky.

See, what people overlook with the Celts, and Boudica in particular, is that she has the two best warmonger traits already. If she also had a unique unit like Praetorians and a unique building that synergized with them, she'd be ludicrously overpowered. Gallic Warriors already get a free Combat I promotion and lowered requirements for additional promotions. Do they really need more? You've got to be kidding. If you can't win your battles with Gallic Warriors, you need to go back to Chieftain for a while to practice your warmongering.

So while I'll readily concede that the Celtic unique unit and building aren't particularly impressive, they don't suck, and they're plenty good for what you need. If you're lucky enough to roll yourself a hilly map, they can be excellent. If not, you're no worse off than you would be without them.

The main point to be made with regard to the Celtic uniques is that they aren't something you need to or want to beeline for in order to take full advantage. Do your research and development as you would in any other game, and when the time comes for a swordsman war, just make sure you're using hills when possible. And prioritize Duns more than you would walls for your military production cities once you learn Masonry.

Last, but not least ... before you dismiss the free Guerilla I too quickly, let's look at what that leads to. Guerilla II gives double movement in hills and +30% hills defense, and don't forget that we now have Guerilla III which gives +25% hills attack and +50% withdrawal chance. That means that all your land units built with a barracks can start with double movement in hills. If you can get them 1 more experience, you have swordsmen with Combat I, 50% extra defense in hills, double movement, and a 50% chance to withdraw from failed combat. Wow!

I might be wrong, but I don't think there has been a Pangaea ALC game yet. Boudica would be a good leader for a pangaea game, as she is obviously best at early and frequent warfare. I think it would be interesting to see you go for an early domination win on a pangaea map.

I don't think building the Stonehenge should be a strategy to aim for. With Boudica it would be better to build a bunch of units and go capture the Stonehenge from a neighbouring civ typically. We just have to admit that the starting techs are quite horrible and make the best of the situation.

As much as the Celtic UU and UB would flourish on a Highlands map, Boudica's lack of economic traits would be emphasized. Less land to farm for a SE and less cottagable land as well. It is a recipe for economic doom. Doom I say DOOM. It was a scramble getting Harrummy out of the tech whole after the axe rush of Zara. And he is Org. I find most maps have plenty of hilly terrain already. Adding economic doom, doom I say DOOM, in an attempt to bolster a weak UU and UB is not the best way to highlight a leaders traits. Scout out the early surrounding area and decide on your best course for your economy.
Next would be deciding if you can delay REXing to build the Henge. By the time you can chop it out you should know if you have copper available. If so then grab the copper and chop the henge. Boudica can use axewielding settlers if need be. Or Gallic swordsmen. No one has mentioned the fact you can build Gallic swordsmen with copper OR iron. A handy little bit of info to keep in mind. Once you have copper your strategic metal needs are satisfied until crossbows/pikes/knights. plenty of time for an Agg/Char leader to go and gather some up. Most importantly it opens up the possibility of a gallic warrior rush. Unlike normal swordsmen where you have to research IW, look for the iron, settle a city connect the city and mine the iron and connect it. Unless your lucky and get it in an existing city. With Gallics you can start producing them as soon as you research IW if you have managed to snag copper. The copper should be all hooked up and ready to go. You lose a couple of them when you take the first city or two but they are quickly C1/CR2. Which just blast through cities. Don't waste promotions going up the Guerrilla line. 1 or 2 at most for stack protection. But in most cases a C1 gallic swordsman is just as safe on a hill without any further promotion help. IMHO to the best advantage of GS is the ability to build them with copper.
The Dun is a turd. Build one for producing archers for fog busting and protecting mines. If you settle a few cities on hills you may want one for producing defenders, but don't alter city placement to support building a dun.
I would use the added :) from charasmatic to work extra early cottages to fund research and finance expansion. Granted, I am a devout CE player at heart, but with Boudica's starting techs and her lack of a true financial trait it will take a while to get a SE up and running. If a couple high food city locations (former AI capitals) are available then you can run a nice hybrid economy. Keep in mind your first GP will probably be a prophet if you build the Henge. I like settled Prophets, don't get me wrong, but that raises the price on a GP you can use to bulb a trade tech. Personally I would research the techs that allow him to bulb Theocracy. Mmmmmmm more exp and controling the AP is always nice...as well as future shrine gold and hammers from temples,monastaries and Catherdrals.

Highlands might be a bit much, but I think Rocky makes more hills.

madscientist mentioned the copper or iron requirement of gallic swordsmen if I'm not mistaken.

I don't think building the Stonehenge should be a strategy to aim for. With Boudica it would be better to build a bunch of units and go capture the Stonehenge from a neighbouring civ typically. We just have to admit that the starting techs are quite horrible and make the best of the situation.

Too often it is assumed that the wonder in question is in a civ close enough to conquer. Stonehenge is so ridiculously cheap it is one of the few wonders that cost less than the units to capture it from someone else.
Stonhenge is 180:hammers:
4 Monuments is 180:hammers:
4 axemen is 208:hammers:

It takes 11 turns on Epic to reach pop2 if you have a 3food tile in the LSC(Lil Skinny Cross) it takes 17 turns without one. Then 1 turn to whip and 15 more for the first border pop. That is 27-33 turns...or 15 with Stonehenge.

Charasmatic and starting with Myst makes stonehenge a no brainer.

Actually, starting with Mysticism and Charismatic means you've got a free +:) building right off the bat. Not too bad. Mysticism has more uses than founding religions.

While I appreciate that movement is less of a consideration on the game speed you're playing, double-move through hills is no bad thing for units that can normally only move one.

All that being said, you don't have to keep cities; razed cities provide a boost to the economy and the only malus is diplomacy. :)

Yeah, but you get more than the Stonehenge if you capture it, like a city. Stonehenge is pretty incidental if it's there. :)

madscientist mentioned the copper or iron requirement of gallic swordsmen if I'm not mistaken.

Indeed he did. Indeed he did. He also mentions a guerilla2 archer for stack defense. Not a big fan of archers for stack defense. Even a Guerrilla2 archer on a hill is weaker than an unpromoted axeman on a hill.
G2 Archer = 3*1.75= 5.25
Unpromoted axeman = 5*1.25=6.25
The only time it has the advantage is against chariots, and if chariots are a concern then spears are vastly superior for stack defense.
This does not even take into account the Combat1 for aggressive leaders. The only time archery units are good for stack defense is in the x-bow era before knights are available.

Though a dun promoted G2 archer would be a nice choking unit. I haven't seen Sis use the choke exploit yet in an ALC and hope I never do.

Yeah, but you get more than the Stonehenge if you capture it, like a city. Stonehenge is pretty incidental if it's there. :)

Again assuming it is in a civ next door.

Although not utilizing Guerilla II and III would probably be more intelligent from a mechanical viewpoint, it strikes me as somewhat prudent to remember that we are trying to utilize the leader in a way that is conducive to her unique features.

And having said that, having wicked Guerilla III armies would be absolutely terrifying if your cities were on hills from a defensive standpoint, and the bonuses of Guerilla III are not shabby, especially since getting it is much easier with the Dun and Charismatic.

Solver's unofficial patch

The automatic installer for that patch is supposed to let you install it as a mod, so I think you could run this game as a mod without changing your current default files.

Somehow I keep struggling with Boudica on monarch. I expected a walk in the park with her with lots of warmongering. I even tried a sort of an RPG with only warrior civics at a certain point but I can't get her game going well to be honest somehow. And I even started with stone in my BFC in one of those games. Stonehenge is a good boost I can give you that. The dun is ok but nothing more then that.

do not even bother trying to use the guerrilla promotions. they are stupid and useless. play your wars normally.

abuse charismatic early on. don't build stonehenge cause monuments are one chop/whip anyway. get cottaging early.

guerilla 3 celtic warriors are like flanking 2 horse archers. duns, well, they're more like protective promotions.

If it was funny the first time, it's still gotta be funny the 100th time, right? :rolleyes: ;)

I figured I'd just get it out of the way early.

Stone in BFC is definitely nice Killroyan, but I don't think that it'll happen on Immortal. Still, I'd make it a target after locating bronze, so chop/slowbuild Stonehenge (forested hills in BFC please), and later on, either find some industrious neighbour with stone that would be kind enough to build Mids for you, or chop them yourself for 6:science: per scientist. With those madscientists everywhere (well, you'll have plenty of conquered cities by then, right? :D) your research rate will flourish even on 0% and roaring, stomping machine of war will steamroll all those around you...

Agg and cha also give an edge to gunpowder units so it might be worth considering not over-expanding at the start ( maybe an axe/GW rush if there's an available target) and leaving the major wars until the gunpowder era.
If you build cities on hills and add a dun then you've got free protective trait (geurilla archers on a hill with a dun are as good as CG archers with a wall) so small expansion (6-8 cities), turtle then war wth drafted muskets/rifles.

Agg and cha also give an edge to gunpowder units so it might be worth considering not over-expanding at the start ( maybe an axe/GW rush if there's an available target) and leaving the major wars until the gunpowder era.
If you build cities on hills and add a dun then you've got free protective trait (geurilla archers on a hill with a dun are as good as CG archers with a wall) so small expansion (6-8 cities), turtle then war wth drafted muskets/rifles.

Or you could just kill everyone

Charasmatic and starting with Myst makes stonehenge a no brainer.

Agreed.

Also, please don't play a highlands map. Play something remotely normal that doesn't just give you a headstart straight away. Like the "inland sea" Shaka game, highlands here wouldn't be very interesting (IMO).

(I still believe that with "inland sea" it's too easy to make your borders very small by utilising the water like you did. If you'd played "lakes" instead your borders would be far larger and you wouldn't have had such an easy game)

May I suggest the unofficial update of the unofficial patch? ;)

Indeed he did. Indeed he did. He also mentions a guerilla2 archer for stack defense. Not a big fan of archers for stack defense. Even a Guerrilla2 archer on a hill is weaker than an unpromoted axeman on a hill.
G2 Archer = 3*1.75= 5.25
Unpromoted axeman = 5*1.25=6.25
The only time it has the advantage is against chariots, and if chariots are a concern then spears are vastly superior for stack defense.
This does not even take into account the Combat1 for aggressive leaders. The only time archery units are good for stack defense is in the x-bow era before knights are available.

Though a dun promoted G2 archer would be a nice choking unit. I haven't seen Sis use the choke exploit yet in an ALC and hope I never do.

Bah, what difference does Guerila promoted archers make. More importantly, where does Sis put his Maori Statues.

Somehow I keep struggling with Boudica on monarch. I expected a walk in the park with her with lots of warmongering. I even tried a sort of an RPG with only warrior civics at a certain point but I can't get her game going well to be honest somehow. And I even started with stone in my BFC in one of those games. Stonehenge is a good boost I can give you that. The dun is ok but nothing more then that.

This was a problem for me. My final solution was a slower start at the beginning to establish either a good shrined religion or a stronge REXED cottage based game. Her traits make warring at any era easy.

War is the only way to utlilize the traits of Boudica,

Unique Building: Dun (Replaces Wall; Cost: 50; Unique Characteristics: Free Guerilla I promotion for units built in the city)
Shouldn't that be "for eligible units built in the city"?

I mean, which units can and can't receive Guerrilla promos?

I think global highlands / snaky continents would be nice settings for this game...

Numerous comments here about Boudica's economy being a potential problem, especially with no economy boosting traits and a potential borked economy after the early war / REXing that being Boudica demands.

However, I don't see a problem at all.

Let's look closely at Charismatic and her starting Techs and summarise what they give us:

- Charismatic gives +1 :) out of the box.
- Myst as starting tech and Charismatic together makes Henge a no brainer (I'm sorry you Henge haters, but it does! ;)) for a further +1 :) in each city from the free monument.
- Not needing to slowbuild/chop/whip a monument in every city means those saved :hammers: can go into the City's first vital build (be it Unit / Barracks (for war) or Granary / Libs (for whipping / growth / economy)
- The appearance of the Great Prophet from Henge (assuming the RNG goes that way) can bulb Code of Laws to either found Conf for a Holy City and Shrine, will also give +1 :) from having a State Religion (if you've not got one already and/or if it is safe to adopt it for Diplo reasons) or, if founding Conf is unlikely on Immortal, then you still get courts relatively early to shore up the economy post REX / early war.
- All this means a potential +3 pop cap in each city in the early game. Pre-Calendar, that is a massive advantage, not even counting if we get Gold, Fur, Gems etc for even more :). Those +3 pop will mean more whipping, more food tiles worked, more specialists, more cottages, more production, etc, etc.

So, like I say, I don't see a problem for the economy from those Traits, I see some great synergy and options.

Henge on immortal as an agressive civ doesn't seem like the best plan..

No one has mentioned the fact you can build Gallic swordsmen with copper OR iron.

Gallic Warriors are regular swordsmen plus simpler resource needs ...

:p

10 chars

Some comments on ability to get Stonehenge.

1) Boudica starts with no food techs, and only 1 military within one tech, the ever popular archery.
2) Stonehenge costs hammers and how to get them? Mining/BW means no food if your going to chop it out.
3) With slow growth, the charismatic trait is going to useless, why put Lady B in the hole so early.
4) Immortal means Stonehenge likely needs to be built by 2000 BC, preferably 2500 BC. I just don't see it unless Sis pops a needed tech or two from huts.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying Boudica should become a pacifist. What I am saying is early patience works best with her. Get the worker techs, settle those military resources, get a good 4-5 city base and some cottages, and hit the happy caps first. Maybe tech currency/construction/CoL first.

Personally I would rather see him get the great wall. The AIs are slower at that than Stonhenge, Great at producing GGs by fighting a little defensively with Guerilla promoted Gallics on hills, and getting an early GSpy for either infiltration or settling to make up for the lack of economy traits.

AS far as the map, I vote NO to a highlands map.

Henge on immortal as an agressive civ doesn't seem like the best plan..

What about as a warmongering Charismatic civ who will not have to build a monument in every city it founds and conquers?

I always like playing a Charismatic leader...it's like having a military trait and economic trait combined into one, unlike some of the other military traits that are available in the game.

The key to utilizing the military aspect (faster promotions) is to have some momentum going with successful battles...because the bonus does you no good unless your units gain some amount of XP. That's where Aggressive helps out, because it gives your units a bonus right away, even before they start fighting.

As far as the happiness bonus goes, I consider it an excuse to delay happiness buildings such as temples or colosseums. For the price of just 30 hammers, you gain the same happiness boost that an 80-hammer building gives you, for a large part of the game...and you gain another happiness for free.

I wouldn't give any preference toward building wonders with this leader. If the Stone or Marble is there to speed up their production, then by all means go for it, but be prepared for the resources to be absent.

I would recommend not over-investing hammers into buildings, because there is no special advantage there other than the bonus for Monuments.

Units, on the other hand, are above average...but the problem with units is that it's easy to fall into the trap of building too many of them, especially without an economic bonus to keep your economy from crashing during a war! The solution to this is not to over-emphasize production output, but rather capitalize on the superior efficiency of the hammers that you do invest into units.

He also mentions a guerilla2 archer for stack defense. Not a big fan of archers for stack defense. Even a Guerrilla2 archer on a hill is weaker than an unpromoted axeman on a hill.
G2 Archer = 3*1.75= 5.25
Unpromoted axeman = 5*1.25=6.25
The only time it has the advantage is against chariots, and if chariots are a concern then spears are vastly superior for stack defense.
This does not even take into account the Combat1 for aggressive leaders. The only time archery units are good for stack defense is in the x-bow era before knights are available.

Though a dun promoted G2 archer would be a nice choking unit. I haven't seen Sis use the choke exploit yet in an ALC and hope I never do.

All archers have a built in 25% hills defence, so it would be 6 str for the archer. When defending against an unpromoted axeman, the archer has better odds due to the first strike. 78.1% for the archer, 74.1% for the axeman.
Of course for the same number of promotions you can get a C1 Shock Guerilla 1 axeman with 97% chance to win if on a hill.

I had a bad experience with attacking Boudica, and not being able to take the capital with a dun on a hill. She got a great general and started producing guerilla III archers that even attacked my choking units.

Guerilla 3 is not bad when facing a tough hill city defender like flanking is not bad when facing tough defenders, so it has its uses.

do not even bother trying to use the guerrilla promotions. they are stupid and useless. play your wars normally.

Let's consider the alternatives for promoting gallic warriors -- by starting with G1, you can immediately promote to G2 with a barracks, and to G3 with a combat victory (I think someone else mentioned this). You could have also promoted up the CR line to CR1 and CR2. Let's consider some likely units we'd be facing:

1) A CG1 archer, full fortification bonus, in a city with 20% cultural defense:

vs. GII or GIII gallic, which has modified strength 6.6
the archer has modified strength 3*(1 (base) + 0.25 (fortification) + 0.2 (culture) + 0.7 (city defense) - 0.1 (sword bonus for city attack)) = 6.15

against a CRI gallic (still modified strength 6.6), the archer has modified strength 5.55; against a CRII gallic, the archer's modified strength drops to 4.8.

I don't know what the survival odds are exactly for these cases, due to the first-strike business, but the battle looks to be roughly 50-50 odds or victory for the G2 or G3 gallic against the archer, somewhat better for the CRI, and much better for the CRII. Of course, we haven't talked about the 50% withdrawal bonus, which is huge, swinging a 50-50 battle to have 75% odds that your unit will survive.

2) CI axe, same fortification bonus, same city -- it's 6.6 vs. 9.75 (5*(1+0.1+0.25+0.2+0.5-0.1)) for G2 or GIII, 6.6 vs. 8.75 for CRI, and 6.6 vs. 7.5 for CRII. Combat odds are less than 50-50 in all cases, so your best odds of survival are with the GIII gallic.

Obviously, defense odds are never better with a CR-promoted unit than a G-promoted one. And if you're able to make an attack approach just on hills, then having a G-stack rather than a CR- stack also obviates the need for a shock axe defender (CI shock axe attacking hilltop CI shock axe is 5.5 vs. 6.75; CI shock axe attacking hilltop GII gallic is 5.5 vs 6.6).

Basically, I think that if the map is hilly enough, you might want to consider starting gallic warriors on the guerilla line, and promoting up the CR line only after getting to G3.



The G2 bonus of double hill movement will also be pretty nice (and with the hill defense bonus you're unlikely to be attacked when ending on a hill) -- you can strike much more rapidly at deep targets if there are substantial hills in the enemy's territory.

Those +3 pop will mean more whipping...

Wouldn't it mean less whipping? It will take longer to grow to the happy cap before you start, and it will take longer to regrow between each whip.

I'd be really impressed if Sisiutil makes good use of the Gallic Warriors. One obvious advantage is the more flexible resource requirements, but other than that I don't see a big advantage of using them.

It seems like the key to succeeding with this leader is to streamline tech research in the medieval era. Some techs such as Engineering or Machinery may not be as important as in a usual game. If you focus on one branch of the tech tree, you may be able to produce better results.

Of course, we haven't talked about the 50% withdrawal bonus, which is huge, swinging a 50-50 battle to have 75% odds that your unit will survive.

Note: I haven't played Boudica, so I'm speculating here, but ...

IMHO that's the most significant benefit of the Guerilla line. In a typical war, I usually assume I need a minimum of 2 attackers per defender to ensure success. In many/most cases (pre-catapults, high cultural defense, walls, protective, etc.), a 3 to 1 ratio is safer. That's because the first wave of attacks, and perhaps some of a second, are suicide attacks.

With Guerilla III, 50% of your "suicide" attacks don't result in suicide! That's huge.

Maybe you only promote half of your units along the Guerilla line and half on City Raider, but I can't see how all City Raider could be better.

In regards to using the Gallic in war

1) That 50% retreat is nice but consider the unit will NOT have CR promotions then.
2) HAs with flanking II made better suicide units.
3) Gallics require only copper, which is a benefit.
4) Gallics provide an extra hill defense when it's adjacent to a city you are attacking.
5) Gallics provide extra defence when capturing a city on the hill.
6) Gallics free promotion or Guerilla II are kept upon promotion, thus you can concievably get some Guerilla II machine guns in the future.

Gallics offer alot of little advantages that can be used, not real overpowering WOW affect.

I recommend Big and Small continents as the map type. Usually lots of room for combat, but not as predictable as Pangea.

Stonehenge is quite powerful in any circumstance, but doubly so with Charismatic leaders. It is almost the equivalent of a third trait [creative]. But with the happiness thrown in. You may want to use your second city to chop it so that it gets the culture boost and the prophet points.

Early aggression yes, but not before you have at least three cities; unless of course someone is right next door and you have metals/horses and they don't.

In regards to using the Gallic in war

1) That 50% retreat is nice but consider the unit will NOT have CR promotions then.
2) HAs with flanking II made better suicide units.
3) Gallics require only copper, which is a benefit.
4) Gallics provide an extra hill defense when it's adjacent to a city you are attacking.
5) Gallics provide extra defence when capturing a city on the hill.
6) Gallics free promotion or Guerilla II are kept upon promotion, thus you can concievably get some Guerilla II machine guns in the future.

Gallics offer alot of little advantages that can be used, not real overpowering WOW affect.
You forgot the + 25% attack to hills, the strongest effect of Guerrilla III IMHO, given the love that BtS AI has for cities on hills .As G. warriors start with Guerrilla I and this is a Cha leader, we're only 4 XP away of it ( barracks + Vassalage or Theo or a settled GG ). Using the HA methaphor, a guerrilla III G.warrior attacking a hilled city is a 1 tile/turn move HA with flanking II and CR that has defensive terrain bonuses, especially on hills :p ;)

don't play on a weird map just to demonstrate the guerrilla promo, because that just isn't informative or applicable to most situations.

What is a wierd map, tycoonist? :p

HIghlands is a weird map. :p

No wierder than tectonics. And since tectonics was already used.....

I'm undecided on the map type, so we can discuss that.
Shuffle please. Picking continents or pangea or some other land map while choosing Romans or Boudicia is very similar to selecting Noble.

I think the map decides what strategy to use. While leaders traits make certain strategy stronger you can not decide on which to use until you see the map (unless you hand select the map that is). Deciding on an early rush only to find you an isolated or off on a large landmass by yourself makes no sense.

As for the map shuffle is a favorite of mine as well. Or random setting on Tectonics.

Shuffle please. Picking continents or pangea or some other land map while choosing Romans or Boudicia is very similar to selecting Noble.

Seconded :goodjob:

I want us all to wondering what the map is right up until the mid game.

Shuffle please. Picking continents or pangea or some other land map while choosing Romans or Boudicia is very similar to selecting Noble.

Then don't use shuffle but pick one of the map types that provide more of a challenge. Would you feel better shuffling and getting Pangaea?

I agree with random map. The great thing about somewhat lackluster UUs/UBs is that they will have less of a corrupting influence on playstyle whereas great UUs/UBs might put more pressure on the player to play a certain way instead of adapting to the circumstances.

I would ask Sisiutil to do use the Guerilla promotions on his Gallic Warriors. While G2 is not extremely good for attackers, G3 makes up for it, and the charismatic trait ensures it is easy to get to G3. When attacking a city on a hill, the difference with a CR2 gallic warrior is just the first CR promotion, while you still have a 50% chance of withdrawal.

I would argue they are better suicide units than Horse Archers. They have a slightly higher withdrawal rate, with the free Combat 1 promotion they have higher strength and they have better promotion options (i.e. CR) should they still survive. Moreover when bringing Gallic Warriors (unpromoted) in a stack, you can choose at the last moment whether you need an extra suicide unit, or start using the CR units. When attacking cities on a hill they become even better. Finally they are also cheaper than HAs and are better at defending (which is a bit of a non-concern as suicide units shouldn't defend, but still).

Finally, as the ALCs are meant to show how unique units can be used, just ignoring the bonus of the UU seems off.

I think that the Dun is largely worthless, but I would like to suggest putting it in at least whatever city gets Heroic Epic and/or a settled Great General.

Free Geurilla isn't a game breaker, certainly, but it is still a free promotion and I'd say it's worthwhile to spend a few hammers on a promotion-granting Wall when you're going to be pumping out zillions of units from that city even if the free promotion isn't City Raider.

Wouldn't it mean less whipping? It will take longer to grow to the happy cap before you start, and it will take longer to regrow between each whip.
Sorry, I was unclear. More whipping in the sense that'll you potentially have more pop available to do bigger whips, if needed.

How quickly you regrow is obviously a consideration yes, but then that is true for any amount of whipping. My point is that if you have plenty of food in the BFC (possibly unlikely for Immortal), then the +3:) gives you the option to grow to a larger size so you can whip bigger builds sooner.

Also, it allows you to whip (for example) size 5->3 rather than 3->1 to ensure you always have a good amount of tiles worked even after a whip.

You can't whip 3->1

You can't whip 3->1
:rolleyes: 4->2

There is one other minor advantage to a dun over a wall other than the guerilla promotion, it gives 3000 soldiers instead of 2000.

This is my first post but i read alot of your previous games and found em very interesting and wanted to wish you good luck in this game!

this should be good...

I also vote for shuffle map. Playing as Boudica is much more straightforward than some of the other leaders, so it would be nice to leave a little up to chance. :lol:

Big fan of the ALC games!

Just wanted to make a case for trying out the Guerilla 2 and 3 promoted Gallics. They are indeed very unusual and I found them fun and powerful in a game i just started.

I just played the beginning of a monarch Boudica game. Aside for the 50% withdrawl chance and improved attack vs hill, I found the mobility of these guys amazing. For instance AI workers and reinforcements dont expect you to pop over hills and be able to attack so you have some easy kills. And although you are best to keep them on hills, they are strength 6 and start with combat so if you land in a forest or even in the open, they arent an easy kill.

In the game I started, I didn't really have a plan. It was Hesphut and I on an island. I got 2 expansion cities founded to block my end of the island, built stonehenge, barracks, librairies, cottages, duns, the pyramids, then got more 2 fill-in cities founded by the time i got ironworking. I built about 8 G2 gallic warriors and 2 axemen and attacked with reinforcement gallices in queue. I figured it was suicidal but she was about to get too powerful. She had about 6 cities with horses and iron hooked up recently. I had just researched construction but didnt think I could wait for the catapults.

Well the first city fell with one loss. Her capitol was 2 tiles away; a plain and a hill. So the uninjured stack just moved out immediately. The next turn they climbed the hill and attacked the same turn. She had no time to whip or get reinforcements so it was only 3 archers. To my surprise the capital/shrine city fell with one or two dead GW's; cant remember, but now i had several G3 GW's and CR1 G2 GW's. The next city was on a hill and my first G3 GW withdrew (and was promoted to CR1 G3) and the other defenders fell easy and I razed the city. Then this highly mobile stack raced to the other side of her empire and raised all her remaining cities but one, then received 3 techs for peace. :lol:

The mobility of this army was what impressed me the most. I did have a catapult during most of this short war but it couldnt keep up. The trade off of attacking an unprepared city with cultural defenses vs dragging your catapults and waiting for them to do their work...at least in this game the lightning attack made more sense. The other thing I noticed was as this unit is and early UU, there are lots of forests and jungle. So these guys are tough to kill because its fairly easy to keep them hopping from hill to forest, hill to forest, traveling the terrain even faster than mounted units.

Anyway look forward to seeing this game unfold. :goodjob:

Wow looks like I'm late to the party :P.

Well with the Celts, if you want to fully leverage their UB you haveto tech differently then normal... kinda like Spain delaying Economics, in the Celts case you should delay Rifling, I know that may sound kinda conflicting with a leader like Bodica on a level like Immortal.

The Reason why I would delay Rifling and Beeline Gunpowder and Military Science is because, this way you can build heaps of Grenadiers with Free GI Promotion, and Draft or build Free GI Musketmen which you can later Upgrade to Rifles that have free GI Promos.

GI is more useful then you expect it to be, because when Attacking you tend to travel the most Safe route through Froest and hills, and if the AI counter attacks you on a Hill that's an extra 45% Defensive bonus for your stack.

as for the UU, the only time I found it's UU bonus useful was when I forced the AI from travelling the Safe route when I was on the Defensive. I'd fortify on any nearby hill with GII Gallics, and force the SOD to either travel on flatland where they didn't receive any defensive bonus which put me at a advantage or they'd attack my GII Gallics on a Hill and usually suffered more loses then I would. I'd say on average they'd lose 2 -3 units for every defending Gallic. Since a Gallic with GII on a Hill received a defensive 75% Bonus which would even have better odds vs an attacking Shock Axemen.

As for Traits and Techs that's pretty obvious, except I reccommend beelining down the Mathamatics, Construction, Currency & COLs line then later beeline Gunpowder Chemistry and Military Science.

Btw the 50% withdrawal chance form GIII only applys when your unit attacks a hill. ( I think... can't remember I stopped playing Civ4 after my Graphics card broke and too poor to afford another one)

I also Reccommend Experimenting with GII Crossbowmen, they might make good pillagers... but i've never properly tried it.

The Reason why I would delay Rifling and Beeline Gunpowder and Military Science is because, this way you can build heaps of Grenadiers with Free GI Promotion, and Draft or build Free GI Musketmen which you can later Upgrade to Rifles that have free GI Promos.

The description I'm reading for the Dun says it gives Guerrilla I to all "land units." Are riflemen not a land unit? Is the description wrong? Is there some other limitation on who does and doesn't get the promotion?

I'm assuming it's really only available to all land units who would otherwise be eligible for the Guerrilla I promotion (i.e. not mounted units), but that still includes riflemen since it includes all gunpowder units.

Edit: Ah, I see ... walls are obsolete with Rifling, so Duns are as well. Oops.

Edit: Ah, I see ... walls are obsolete with Rifling, so Duns are as well. Oops.

Yeah I should've mention it but since the game has been out for a long time I thought Civ Fans like us would already know.

Yeah it stinks that Dun Obsolete, if they never obsoleted, they would make a pretty decent UB.

The description I'm reading for the Dun says it gives Guerrilla I to all "land units." Are riflemen not a land unit? Is the description wrong? Is there some other limitation on who does and doesn't get the promotion?

I'm assuming it's really only available to all land units who would otherwise be eligible for the Guerrilla I promotion (i.e. not mounted units), but that still includes riflemen since it includes all gunpowder units.

Melee units generally can't get guerilla. The Gallic Warrior is an exception. So the UB and UU aren't exactly redundant. The UU gets a promotion that the UB grants to other units. It'd be pretty cool if the UU automatically came out with Guerilla II when it was produced in a city with a Dun, but such is not the case.

I really like Guerilla III. It's not something I would do otherwise, but with the Celts they're fun. And once they get rolling and you can add City Raider in (along with the free Combat I), they're pretty devastating.

I'd also advocate getting a religion and Stonehenge, mostly for economic reasons, though the happiness ain't bad.

I'd pretty much ignore the Dun, except in cities that are built on hills and if you have stone.

Sis, I am a fan of yours and you are the main reason I joined.
One thing you can do is to show how to regrow your economy after warring. Not trash it A LOT but enough to get the message through.
Another is to us an early game war the REX late game. It is possible. By wiping out all/capturing all civs capitals within range you get vassals and land.

Btw the 50% withdrawal chance form GIII only applys when your unit attacks a hill. ( I think... can't remember I stopped playing Civ4 after my Graphics card broke and too poor to afford another one)

Can anyone confirm (or deny) this? It seems like a pretty critical point. If the withdrawal chance only works when you're attacking a hill tile, that kind of sucks, but I guess it makes sense that a hill-oriented promotion shouldn't add a universal withdrawal chance.

I took a very quick glance at the XML file that defines promotions, and I don't see anything obvious that would restrict it to hill attacks.

Can anyone confirm (or deny) this? It seems like a pretty critical point. If the withdrawal chance only works when you're attacking a hill tile, that kind of sucks, but I guess it makes sense that a hill-oriented promotion shouldn't add a universal withdrawal chance.

I took a very quick glance at the XML file that defines promotions, and I don't see anything obvious that would restrict it to hill attacks.

OK, Not being a firm believer in what the civopedia says, I opened world builder and placed a G3Gallic next to a maceman. The tool tip listed a 49.6% chance of withdrawal. Being an even bigger sceptic of the tool tips than I am of the Civopedia....I attacked. And withdrew. This was on flatlands attacking flatlands. Conclusion: G3 grants withdrawal to all attacks.

I had a great post all written with deeply insightful commentary and a touch of wit but it got dumped because I got logged out. You'll have to make do with a mediocre follow up.

I played a Monarch game with Boudica in preparation for this ALC. I had never played with her before so it was an interesting run through. Boudica is clearly built for war, as we all know. So this is what worked for me and my two bit advice.

Start with worker techs and get your capital and another couple of cities running. Stonehenge is nice, but it's hardly necessary and you won't get it. Just hope a neighbour gets it.

Tech through iron working, obviously, and get Gallic Warriors going. Lots of people say the Dun sucks, and it isn't the awesome, but it ain't bad at all. Duns will shoot your power rating up, which admittedly isn't that big of a deal since you're going to be building an army and warring, but it doesn't hurt if you have a Shaka on one side and a Monty on the other.

The Guerilla promotions are getting short shrift here. You do want to use them. Those GWs will start off with C1, G2 and another promotion just from your traits, barracks and Dun. GIII GWs fly across the land thanks to their double hill movement. The retreat ability will keep your attrition lower than normal and they remove the defensive bonus granted to your enemies on hills.

The key to Boudica is using those GGs that you will be accruing like mad. Settle them. Forget the über medic, you won't need him. XPs are king. Highly promoted armies are easy to achieve with this gal and it creates a snowball effect where each war becomes faster and leaves you set up for your next. Settled GGs and Duns mean you will have C1, GIII and CRII or CRIII Gallic Warriors rolling out as an unstoppable army. A lot will survive a great many battles for promotions to rifleman and infantry thanks to that retreat.

To help with the GGs I would try to get the GW. During wars with neighbours try to lure a stack to attack your Gallic Warriors and archers on a hill at the border. Your GG points positively shoot up.

In my game Genghis was a nearby civ with the GW and his imperialistic trait. He was almost constantly at war with his neighbour, Tokugawa, and amassed a ridiculous amount of GGs. When I took Karakorum from him in the Renaissance, he had settled 6 or 8 GGs there. My army was ridiculous after that.

Economically I didn't have any problems, although this was on Monarch so the curve will be different. Just raze any less than optimal cities and keep capitals. Boudica's economy is based on rape, pillage and plunder. Go forth and be a scourge to any and all civs that you encounter.

Henge before second city while researching worker tec's, first city to get metal online then spam mil. Watch the AI build all the cities for you, and just as you are taking them the very very early GP arrives to get you out of the hole. If someone has been kind enough to found a religion all th better, but otherwise early court's or even settled. A settled GP early enough can keep the economy afloat for the trek to CoL or Currency, and it's the gift that keeps on giving.

Seeing as how you need only 8 xp for a C3+march gunpowder unit it seems a waste not to have a supermedic, units healing on the move with a medic will be at full health when they reach the next target, which is great, even if it means they just protect the artillery ater attacking.

Seeing as how you need only 8 xp for a C3+march gunpowder unit it seems a waste not to have a supermedic, units healing on the move with a medic will be at full health when they reach the next target, which is great, even if it means they just protect the artillery ater attacking.

See, I'm a seat-of-my-pants kind of civver. I don't do a lot of math when I'm playing and it's probably why I'm a solid Monarch and ham and egg Emperor player. However, this seems to reinforce why I wouldn't go for a super medic. Go for a medic II, sure, but use those GGs for XPs that all of your forces will enjoy. A medic II and march soldiers will be doing quite well by the time they hit their next target.

I was cranking out units with 21 XP at the end of my game. I wasn't hampered by spent units. I really think settling those GGs is the way to go.

Post the start! :p

One of the reasons for merging your first Great General and making the super medic is to enable the Heroic Epic and West Point. It's not impossible to get that level 6 unit naturally , without using a Great General (and with Boudica it's easier than with many other leaders), but it's a lot easier with the general.

Whoa, wait a second.

You get the 50% retreat in *all* terrains?

That's huge. Really huge. It moves the UU and UB from "pretty lame" to "potentially awesome".


Waldo

That would mean all GWs (and all Dun-produced units as well) are just 1 xp away from having a 50% retreat chance against everything.

That's a potential game-changer. You get a stack of 8 or 10 of these guys and they can take out almost any early or classical enemy city *without seige weapons*. The fact that they'll be zooming in at double speed wherever there are hills is just gravy.

I think you'd probably want a mix of some CR-line promotions in your stack, for finishing the defenders after your "suicide" units have softened them. Calculating the ideal mix should be a fun challenge.

Geez, and it even fits the whole historic Celtic "naked tattooed berserker" thing. Sweet.


Waldo

And while settling GGs probably makes a lot of sense, pause to consider that a GG on a barrack-bred GW gives you Guerrilla 3, Combat 1, and three other promotions. Make one of them the "extra 30% retreat chance" promo and you have a melee unit that retreats 80% of the time. That almost seems worth a GG right there.

Also, you should be able to disconnect enemy metals and other resources pretty much at will.


Waldo

Wait, does withdrawal work what you're defending?

Some comments on ability to get Stonehenge.

1) Boudica starts with no food techs, and only 1 military within one tech, the ever popular archery.
2) Stonehenge costs hammers and how to get them? Mining/BW means no food if your going to chop it out.
3) With slow growth, the charismatic trait is going to useless, why put Lady B in the hole so early.
4) Immortal means Stonehenge likely needs to be built by 2000 BC, preferably 2500 BC. I just don't see it unless Sis pops a needed tech or two from huts.

Quoted for truth.

I vote against rigging the game by playing highlands or any similar map setup. It makes for a much more educational and entertaining game to utilize the advantages on a much more common map, in my opinion.

Wait, does withdrawal work what you're defending?

No, only when attacking. It wouldn't really work well otherwise, you'd attack a jerk and then kill them but they'd still be there and you'd have to attack again and dang that'd suck.

Getting West Point is actually EASIEST for Boudica.

Sisiutil, I'd recommend using a map with low sea level again to increase your chances of a modern war with LOTS of promotions.

Stonehenge isn't hard to get at all on immortal. After your first warrior, you can build it while growing. The question is the tradeoff.

Wow, I actually get to post at the start of one of these things. :)

Anyways, here's my thoughts on Boadica of the Celts

1) With the Charismatic trait, this is one of those rare cases where it might be worthwhile trying for Stonehenge. When you get a Great Prophet, bulb theology for your highly trained Gallic Warriors.

2) Especially on Immortal, I wouldn't go for an early religion. Wait until someone builds a nice, fat, juicy shrine for you. Research your worker techs first, including bronze working. If you want a religion, try for either Judaism or Christianity. At any rate, plan on burning a great prophet for Theocracy, which is boon for Boudica.

3) Once the basics are out of the way, research iron working and construction.

4) While Boadica has one of the best trait combinations for warmongering, she is one warmonger who should bide her time. I'd concentrate on REXing first, that way you have your choice of victims. I'd wait until you have catapults. Once you have a stack of level 3 catapults and Gallic Warriors, with a few axemen and spearmen for support. Pick a fight with your neighbor, preferably the one that just built a shrine for you.

5) I've seen quite a bit of dissing the Celts unique unit, especially their ability to get Guerrilla III. I personally don't think they're looking at it quite right. Yes, City Raider II is more likely to win, but with GIII you have longer odds which yields more XP, without increasing your losses thanks to that 50% withdrawal chance. If you can produce GIII thanks to theocracy + barracks, they're only a single victory away from level 4 and CRI. Plus you'll get your great general sooner. Once you've got that Great General, you can give newer ones more traditional promotions.

5) Another advantage of the Charismatic trait: Barracks + settled Great General + Theocracy + Vassalage = Level 4 troops. IMO, with the Charismatic trait, you're better off settling your first GG in your heroic epic city, as opposed to the traditional MASH unit.

As for map type... I've fallen in love with shuffle. You never know what you're going to get, and Boadica performs well on any style map... except perhaps Archipelago.

The extra civs on a standard map increase the chances of having a near neighbour and pretty much gurantee a non-isolated start.

Sisiutil's games tend to feature an axe rush, followed by a hole economically and then take down the next nearest neighbour after which victory is assured. Difficulties only seem to emerge, when there is no near neighbour to rush or one isn't rushed. Gallic Warriors only need copper so they can be built with the axemen.

Theocracy is only of use, if you have a state religion and founding your own can have negative consequences should your neighbour have a different one. Getting to 6-8 cities early with courthouses (and the FP) would ensure that Sisiutil's economy does not suffer as a result. In previous games, only the fact that few units are lost keeps the power rating high enough to deter attack whilst the economy gets fixed.I'd like to see Duns builts in every city and a horde of gallic warriors backed by catapults descend on Rome ...

If you do get Stonehenge, I strongly suggest NOT to bulb Theology...rather, do something that was done in the previous ALC, which is to use the Great Prophet on a shrine.

Assuming you get Stonehenge, you can build a Library to run scientists and pop a Great Scientist or Great Prophet. Depending on which one you get first, here is what you can do: If it's a Great Scientist, then bulb Philosophy to found Taoism. If it's a Great Prophet, then use it to bulb Philosophy or settle it.

However, if by chance you pop a Great Scientist first, and then a Great Prophet, then you can first found Taoism and then build a Taoist shrine. The gold you gain from the shrine will be more needed this time because you don't have Organized to cut costs.

In this case I think that using the first great person to bulb Philosophy (and found Taoism) is a better move than using the first great person (assuming it is a GS) to build an Academy, because what you want to avoid here is popping a GS followed by a GP. If you use the GS to found Taoism in this case, then you can use the GP to build a Taoist shrine.

Theocracy is only of use, if you have a state religion and founding your own can have negative consequences should your neighbour have a different one.Unless you're isolated (in which case you don't have anyone to invade), it is very rare that none of your neighbors will found a religion, or not have a nearby religion spread to you.

If that does happen, and you are planning on bulbing Theology, then you're likely to found either Judaism or Christianity. And if all your plans fail... then you can do it the old fashioned way.

Quoted for truth.

Disagree. Stonehenge requires only one tech, Mysticism. It's available right away and it's cheap. And it gives happiness far into the midgame when caps are an issue.

Getting it on Immortal is a challenge, no question. But further discussion depends on his start.


Waldo

Also, Stonehenge -> Great Prophet -> bulb Theology, which is a pretty key tech for our killer redhead.


Waldo

It's not difficult to get Stonehenge on any level that you start with Mysticism since the AI doesn't get production bonuses on wonders and are not as good at rushing wonders as human players.
The thing is you could have built a couple of settlers, workers or warriors and got that sweet spot and worked that gold etc instead.

I started a Boudica game this morning, gallic warriors with guerilla 3 are nice. the 50% withdrawal saved many losses and get high promo units quickly.

The extra civs on a standard map increase the chances of having a near neighbour and pretty much gurantee a non-isolated start.

Sisiutil's games tend to feature an axe rush, followed by a hole economically and then take down the next nearest neighbour after which victory is assured. Difficulties only seem to emerge, when there is no near neighbour to rush or one isn't rushed. Gallic Warriors only need copper so they can be built with the axemen.


This is true. What I was hoping for was another civ on perhaps a different continent with a HUGE army (Kublai Khan would be a good AI for this) so we could see a modern war.

This is true. What I was hoping for was another civ on perhaps a different continent with a HUGE army (Kublai Khan would be a good AI for this) so we could see a modern war.

That is what bothers me about the new lower capitulation thresholds. I miss the days of finding Shaka with an immense empire cranking gobs of troops

You will probably not find him as often as before, but he's still there. :) In my last finished game he vassalized a whole continent (3 AIs) and had almost twice my strength even after I had conquered my own continent.

I'd like to see Duns builts in every city and a horde of gallic warriors backed by catapults descend on Rome ...

Someone correct my history, but I think Brennus did this in 390 or thereabouts, sans catapults.

Mark (returning to lurker status)

That is what bothers me about the new lower capitulation thresholds. I miss the days of finding Shaka with an immense empire cranking gobs of troops

This can be solved by using the no vassal states option. I use it in almost all of my offline games nowadays because I feel the AI is handicapped with vassal states enabled (they use it too frequently).

This can be solved by using the no vassal states option. I use it in almost all of my offline games nowadays because I feel the AI is handicapped with vassal states enabled (they use it too frequently).

I agree, no vassal states would be an interesting option to select. I think it would lead to more wars in general, with AIs picking away at weaker AIs over several fights rather than vassalising after one or two.

Stonehenge vs. No Stonehenge.

Stonehenge is a great wonder. It provides a ton of advantages. It also gets snapped up extremely early because the AI knows it's a good early wonder too.

That means Sis will need to build the 'Henge before pretty much anything else and will only get to have at most 1 other city before building the Wonder. That severely limits the possibilities of an early rush for conquest or for Settler based expansion.

If there are no worthwhile paths to expansion (i.e. no neighbors worth crushing AND no juicy settlement spots screaming out to be taken), then Stonehenge could be worthwhile. If a target of opportunity presents itself, however... CRUSH THEM!

Seriously, the big question on whether to build Stonehenge depends on whether there is something better to spend the hammers on and that depends entirely on the game's start.

I think that a MUCH bigger question is what tech to go for first. The obvious tech to beline is Bronze Working so that you can get to rocking those AGG/CHA Axemen, but you'll also need worker techs to actually develop the empire you forge.

My suggestion: If you end up with one of those capitals that consists of 18 forests plus a calendar resource and a food resourse, tech to Bronze immediately because you'll need to chop out axes to get yourself a better capital ASAP (and you'll have a ton of forests to get those Axes). If you have a capital that is actually useful, then tech for a bit, grow your economy into something that won't collapse under a stiff breeze and then head out for conquest with Axes, Swords and whatever other toys you have lying around.

May I suggest the unofficial update of the unofficial patch? ;)

You really should use the update too, Sisiutil. Just look at what it fixes to see why it's a good idea: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=287712

Well, I've generated the start and posted the game thread HERE (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=7244586), so it's a little too late to adopt the "No Vassal States" option. I'll consider it for future games, however--maybe we could discuss that further in the bullpen thread.

As for the patch--I should be able to apply it without regenerating the start, right?

I have just applied the patch (I had 3.17 + Solver's before) and old saves work just fine.

This might just be me, but when I play as Boudica, I prefer to have her as leader of another nation instead.

The celtic uniques suck hard, and Boudica's traits aren't so overwhelmingly over-powered that I accept the justification to have sub-par uniques to balance super-par leader traits.

One particular combo that feels nice is Boudica of the Sumerians: now we can talk about synergy! :) (The Sumerian UB suggests a religious route, which you have already started on when you built Stonehenge. And the UU is actually a decent UU, having a general-purpose Strength increase)