http://www.sporerevolution.com/spore_expansion_packs/

A future expansion pack will probably contain underwater creatures. How should these be done?

My suggestions (partially covered in the Spore 2 thread):

* Make all new cells herbivore by default, to simplify the startup menu.

* Rename the "Cell phase" to "Tidepool phase". Half-way through the phase, the player becomes multi-cellular, as an animation shows several cells merge into one large organism with different texture. Multi-cellularity gives access to many new organs, such as
** Fins, increasing speed
** Suction cups, allowing to hold other creatures or objects
** Tentacles for weapons
** Shell, increasing health
** Claws, for holding and fighting
** Pleopods (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleopod) (crab legs), increasing maneuver

* Allow small creatures to hang on to large creatures for a free ride, and use a proboscis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proboscis) to parasite from them. This could hopefully be done both in Tidepool phase and Creature phase.

* The transition from Tidepool to Creature is represented by the evolution of a skeleton (inner or outer). Proper legs are not available at startup.

* The first creature nest is in shallow water. To crawl onto land, the player needs to spend DNA points to evolve breathing (which can be done immediately at Easy level). Legs come later.

* Each species has a domain - Aquatic, Amphibious and Land-living. Aquatic creatures cannot advance to Tribe phase. (No fire, no metalworking, no technology.)

* Greater size span between creatures in Creature phase.

* Difference between walking and swimming skill.

* More kinds of missions to gain DNA points. Collecting food, hitting targets with sticks or rocks, building a new nest, etc.

* Functional eyes, ears and smell organs.

* Aquatic and amphibious plants and creatures remain in the game during Tribe, Civilization and Space phase. The planet ecosystems might contain plants, herbivores and carnivores from all classes, increasing biodiversity.

It might be interesting to allow Aquatics to advance to Tribe/Civ stage, but have some different vehicle/building/equipment parts avaiable to them

True, it would be reasonable to allow aquatic species to play the game through space, rather than strictly pidgeonhole them inbetween Cell and Creature phases. The sea should be populated from Creatures onwards.

'Aquatic' as a lengthened Cell stage, i.e. invertebrate/ early vertebrate phase would be cool. We could play Trilobites, eat plankton, etc..

interesting idea

I don't want civilized aquatic species. I explain here. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7236257&postcount=22)

I think those are silly reasons, all in all. Fire is hardly the only way to generate heat. There are other methods and means: focused sunlight, geothermal sources, that sort of thing. Also, a civilization hardly needs to be metal-based; you're thinking too narrowly. What about an engineering system that focuses exclusively on tension rather than compression, thus using fabrics rather than metal?

How would one use focused sunlight or geothermal heat without having metal tools in the first place?

And how would you construct electrical circuits or heat engines without metal?

You create metal near underground vulcanoes and lava rifts. :mischief:

And how would you construct heat engines without metal?

Humans did it. :hmm:

How would one use focused sunlight or geothermal heat without having metal tools in the first place?

Geothermal heat is easy, just find a way to channel the natural heat found just about everywhere.

And how would you construct electrical circuits or heat engines without metal?

At some point they get metal.

I'm not saying I have all the answers for how a water civilization develops. I'm just saying we need to have some broader thought here, and not limit ourselves to purely human lines of thinking.

I can imagine aquatic civilizations, but they'd lack many kinds of technology. I think a UFO should appear to help them into the space age :)

Once again, why does a water creature need to develop along Earth's technological lines?

I think there are some things that just don't work in water. Unless they could build 'air chambers' or 'gas chambers' to do things in.

Aquatic species already breathe oxygen via gills or lungs. Fire can happen underwater if there is an oxygen source. And I'm not sure how much a creature in a buoyant environment needs structures or shelter. Electricity is already present in biology. I think somebody imaginative could come up with how aquatic life could develop technology useful in the water and later roam the land and skies just as us land mammals can roam freely underwater in submarines.

I think there are some things that just don't work in water. Unless they could build 'air chambers' or 'gas chambers' to do things in.

Why in the world would they have to use materials that does not work in water? Building those chambers makes no sense imho. If they did so, they would end up with something that works, but only works in said chambers.

I think that it is possible for aquatic creatures to develop civilization. Heat is recieved from geothermal (Or volcanic for people with no English skills like me) sources, it can be used to melt anything if done properly. Heck, they don't have any agriculture in Spore nonetheless! :lol: They use spice instead. Perhaps there could be some underwater source of spice. It could be those said volcano thingies.

Maybe we would have to agree to disagree on aquatic civilizations.

Creatures should also be able to develop live birth, to become independent of nests.

Maybe we would have to agree to disagree on aquatic civilizations.

Creatures should also be able to develop live birth, to become independent of nests.

That wouldn't be quite as cutesy...

I did find a glitch when you advance from Cell to Creature with no legs. Your first Nest is in the water. Despite their being Maxis creations without legs though, you can not go on land. If you do, you get the exact same cinematic you get as if you normally take a land creature to far into the water. Thats right, a giant fish jumps out of the dirt and eats you. Even if your just 1 cm out of the water.

@Onionsoilder, I've never seen that happen (nests in water)! I've had a creature with only 'flagella' and no legs, and the cinematic happened as normal and I started on land?

Yep, my Sun Maggot didn't even have flagella and it could squirm around the land with gusto.

I did find a glitch when you advance from Cell to Creature with no legs. Your first Nest is in the water. Despite their being Maxis creations without legs though, you can not go on land. If you do, you get the exact same cinematic you get as if you normally take a land creature to far into the water. Thats right, a giant fish jumps out of the dirt and eats you. Even if your just 1 cm out of the water.

That's an acknowledged bug by Maxis.

I'll sign on to the OP. I would say, however, that aquatic civs should be allowed. I agree with essentially everything you're saying about aquatic civilizations developing in the real world, but this isn't the real world. For the sake of fun and variety, as well as to avoid making the aquatic path an inherently inferior option, I would say it would be good to allow it.

I list a few other things here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7256853&postcount=73), that I think would also be good for the game on top of what you've already mentioned. Briefly, different nests, social structures, and environmental factors are the key things that I think should go into making a better game in the future.

Do you think that the Cell/Tidepool environment can be made more diverse?

Maybe there could be room for rocks and other fixed obstacles?