I started testing a few early game with fractal and continents maps. I quit every game around turn 80, and tried to assess whether this game would be playable. Out of maybe 7~8 games I had 1 game which seemed playable.

I wonder if this is the impression of experienced deity players too, or maybe my early game is just not good enough.

I had 3 losses as a result of early declaration by a very close and agressive neighbour (ragnar, toku, shaka), and several more games where I was totally blocked by creative/imperialstic AIs. I was also unlucky to have crappy land around my capital while they had the nice green areas.

What is the bare minimum that you are looking for around turn 100 on deity to determine if the game is worth continuing?

Do you have the saves of the starts? It would make it easier to know whether your starts are your poor side or whether you just got unlucky. 1 out of 7-8 sounds a little low.

I don't have any set minimum -- but there should be 'something' to revolve a plan around. What that 'something' is can vary though.

How early were these DoWs? In my experience you can stop some of them as long as you notice they have enough on their hands and you've had time to hook up copper. They usually don't attack with that many units. If they're starting to push you too hard you can settle a city next to their borders and gift it for a peace treaty. Unfortunately Ragnar and Shaka come at you very fast. DoWs before 1500 BC are tough unless you have copper in your capital, but 500-1200 BC ones don't necessarily mean game over.

No, I don't have saves, I just did very quick tests to check. I think I might have been a little unlucky in starting locations with really bad land near the capital, or really bad neighbours (isolated with Toku :)).
Nevere though about settling next to their border. Is this something you do after the declaration (meaning you keep a settler ready for such case?), I think I could have one my Ragnar game this way, because I had good land (marble, food, gold) and good (other) neighbours to trade with. I just assumed that getting declared early by a deity is game over.

Gifting a city would come after fending off the initial stack of units (and maybe some stray ones) as the AI would have to be ready for peace talks. The problem is that you won't have alphabet and thus can't offer anything but cities. You don't want to give away one of your matured ones so it's better to settle one right next to his borders where it doesn't cause you much harm. It doesn't take that long to whip out a settler so you don't have to plan it that much in advance. The first thing to do is to stop the initial stack -- then you can start thinking about ways to get peace.

And no, a deity DoW on you doesn't mean game over at all. I like SB/NA a lot on deity level -- you have a great chance of fending off these early DoWs (even without resources) and the philosophical trait to speed up the tech rate even if your empire is pathetic. Financial and such leaders might be more effective if you get a good map roll -- but if you only have 1 game to work with SB is a much safer pick.

If you're going for cultural, maybe it's pretty high.

I still believe winning consistently on (BtS) deity is possible.

We have the strategies worked out, from managing early DoWs to developing strong economy on little land.

The problem is in choosing the right strategy early, without much info about the map and the opponents.

What percentage do the top players win - is there anyone on the forums who can claim to beat Deity consistently?

On medium size/speed unpredictable maps (Shuffle, random climate and sea level), I'm winning maybe 40% of my Deity games and don't seem to be improving. About half of the ones I lose seemed winnable in principle, but many of those involve judgment calls on insufficient information... I don't think I could get higher than 50% just by cleaning up my execution.

Since playing it safe isn't an option - if I took no calculated risks, I'd win less - I think I've hit my ceiling unless I come across anything fundamental I missed before. Also, if it was possible to win consistently on Deity we'd need a higher level - I like 50%-ish odds (still more flattering than playing against equal opponents, but enough of a challenge to make a victory satisfying).

One thing you could try is browsing the Succession Games forum for deity games (such as this one (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=273426) or this one (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=278934) or this one (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=266381)). Then, without reading the thread, start your own shadow game using the initial save. After finishing it, compare your results to that of the SG team to see which aspects of your game could use some improvement (assuming the SG team did well and their game didn't end in an ignominious defeat).

I still believe winning consistently on (BtS) deity is possible.

We have the strategies worked out, from managing early DoWs to developing strong economy on little land.

The problem is in choosing the right strategy early, without much info about the map and the opponents.

Good, that means I still have room for improvement in my early game.

Take this start for example - I totally believe it is winnable, but I have restarted it several times every time I try it I feel I have done really badly.


Rusten, USun: would you mind trying the early game here and give your thought? If you think it's a winnable and interesting game we could post it a deity challenge. If you don't mind, please save every 10 turns or so for the first 50 turns and send me the saves in a PM or email (I don't want to exhaust your post upload quota).

One thing you could try is browsing the Succession Games forum for deity games (such as this one (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=273426) or this one (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=278934) or this one (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=266381)). Then, without reading the thread, start your own shadow game using the initial save. After finishing it, compare your results to that of the SG team to see which aspects of your game could use some improvement (assuming the SG team did well and their game didn't end in an ignominious defeat).

That's a good suggestion, only that being such a CFC addict I have already read them all (what else am I supposed to do during work days? :crazyeye:)

What percentage do the top players win - is there anyone on the forums who can claim to beat Deity consistently?

On medium size/speed unpredictable maps (Shuffle, random climate and sea level), I'm winning maybe 40% of my Deity games and don't seem to be improving. About half of the ones I lose seemed winnable in principle, but many of those involve judgment calls on insufficient information... I don't think I could get higher than 50% just by cleaning up my execution.

Since playing it safe isn't an option - if I took no calculated risks, I'd win less - I think I've hit my ceiling unless I come across anything fundamental I missed before. Also, if it was possible to win consistently on Deity we'd need a higher level - I like 50%-ish odds (still more flattering than playing against equal opponents, but enough of a challenge to make a victory satisfying).

Hmm... Well right now I have my sights set a lot higher. I've noticed in simultaneous-turn TEAM games, that the deity AIs are MUCH tuffer in comparison to solo. Now... if I can win 50% of those, then I'd probably be a 99% winner in regular deity. Ahah!

I can't blame my partners either, because I've had some of the best.

Also, I said 99%, because we have to leave room for that 1%. I do remember a time, I started a map with a peaceful leader, and wouldn't you know, Boudicia starts 3 tiles away from my capital!!!! Yes how the f*ck is that possible? Because, there was a water-body between us which has a funny effect on city placements.

Before I could even get a worker, or warrior, or even blink, she's already PISSED (what did I do, hadn't had time to even make a workboat if I wanted!) And in just a few turns it was auto-declare and BOOM, you're dead by amphibious and didn't see it coming.

Well of course you didn't see it coming, she moves her boat(s) out her capital AND can attack yours all in a single turn!

I should have kept the autosave, because that one TRUELY had 0% chance to win.

Are we talking theoretically winnable or real wins?

1% seems not enough to account for overwhelming Barbarian uprisings, being rushed without any strategic resources nearby, being stuck on a 1-tile island in the middle of nowhere, unexpected invastions from across the globe, ridiculously improbable losing streaks, AP dogpiles despite the best efforts to get into the club and so on.

With fair play (random maps, no regenerates, no reloads etc) I have a hard time imagining how this would be possible, let alone likely to happen in practice.

Yes, if I COULD win 50% of those...

It's a bit of an exagerration because even still I don't think 99% of solo deity is winnable to even God himself but... we're all learning the game still. There are some who like to think they haven't anything new to learn but... even if u DID at one point know everything, the last patch will again throw stuff out the window...

Obsolete I miss your walkthroughs... I accredit you with helping me move up from monarch to winning consistently on immortal. I'd love to see some of these diety games you speak of.

Obsolete I miss your walkthroughs... I accredit you with helping me move up from monarch to winning consistently on immortal. I'd love to see some of these diety games you speak of.

really???? someone actually learnt something from obsolete's impossible strategies! :eek:

really???? someone actually learnt something from obsolete's impossible strategies! :eek:

I'm one of those.

really???? someone actually learnt something from obsolete's impossible strategies! :eek:

I would not call them "impossible", I would call them "unique". And yes, I did learn things from obsolete's walkthroughs, since they are different from most games.

30-35% wins(marathon): agg. neighbours declare ~90% of the time(~30% of the games lost - you can luck out if the agg. one is also close to someone with high peace rating so they start annoyed with each other and the agg. one lets you be and goes after the peaceful guy), forced to deny some requests which sour up those who give -2 to refusing - like cathy asking for philo, paper, edu x3(~5% of the games lost), main rival lucking out and researching key mil. techs. instead of diverting(~10% of the games lost), another continent being taken over by someone/another continent in a total love fest/another continent deciding to invade you right after they discover you(~5% of the games lost), mistakes I've made(~15-20% of the games lost).

That being said, I've found late game so sluggish I ended 1 game(like playing till I get the movie) while having about 30 saves in a tbc folder waiting; bribing the ais in world wars late game slows everything down dramatically, probably due to the amount of units(but ok, that's more of a hardware problem).

the above for: marathon, play now, fractal, random leader.

p.s. - ergo, I'd say close to flawless play would bring a 50-60% win rate or something like that. Should be higher on normal speed, as you'd get declared way less(which is consistent with games posted here), but have to take in acct. settling/taking decissions early game without enough map info.

Marathon = AI nerf.

I expect Normal speed games to be harder.

bc easier on normal(lower chance of declaration due to less turns), ad harder(when on offence, obviously harder). But when pants down(bc), imho easier on normal - for instance, tried out of curiousity http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=288368 2nd attempt 10 times, got rushed before settling 2nd city 8 out of 10.

I don't really have the patience for Marathon games and thus not much experience, but I'd assume they would be harder on Deity because early vulnerability is one of the biggest issues. As such, I'd say SnowlyWhite's estimates for percentages of winnable games match well with mine.

I find normal speed to be more challenging then epic(although ive never played quick, and only one game at marathon), but I prefer the feel of an epic game because you at least get to do a few things early game. Also, going from standard size maps to larger maps tends to make the game more difficult, because it basically eliminates early rush possibilities and allows all the AIs to get a decent amount of land.

There is a deity game I played for a quick session the other night. I wouldn't say it's non-winnable, but to give you the scary facts...

Mansu was in the game...

It was archipelago, and he had a very large continent to himself (relatively speaking)




Need I say more?.....

I abandoned when, despite I was second in the tech lead, I still hadn't finished rifling yet, while mansu was already finishing off infantry! Rediculous... Especially rediculous since I had boxed him in best I could ontop of that! And... he was bogged down in a war!

However, if any deity players here want to take a crack, I'd have no problems re-playing in a succession game or something. There seems to be a real lack of players of that calibre around to start one of those. I'm sure the 4000 BC autosave is still in the directory. Just maybe.... someone can come up with some new revolutionary out-of-the-box thinking...

post a save.. I won't promise anything but might get around and have a go. Just curious...

I believe this is the one...



Silver:: I`m curious what was with your choice for Frederick. Please, tell me that you used random leader selection, because he is a god-awful choice for deity.

He does not even have a UU that will play, and his UB is also a laughable joke that will only be built in games that you are probably going to win anyway.

His traits are very conflicting, one favours vert, the other horiz. What was it you were planning to achieve here, besides trying to make things harder on yourself than need be.

Org could be useful on deity, but only when you pair it with something. If you want to maximize org by rexing... you are going to have problems doing it peacefully as you have no IMP to go along with it. IN fact, you don`t even have EXP either. There is no AGGresive trait to help for a forceful rex, ... and by the way you don`t even have a UU either for that, haha!

Of course it is winnable, popping bronzeworking and Ironworking for example should be more than enough to do the trick!

I suppose you could open up a new thread just for that save and make it a new challenge.

Good, that means I still have room for improvement in my early game.

Take this start for example - I totally believe it is winnable, but I have restarted it several times every time I try it I feel I have done really badly.


Rusten, USun: would you mind trying the early game here and give your thought? If you think it's a winnable and interesting game we could post it a deity challenge. If you don't mind, please save every 10 turns or so for the first 50 turns and send me the saves in a PM or email (I don't want to exhaust your post upload quota).Played until 400 bc, i'm certainly not winning right now but at least i've got a playable position. This start would do for a deity challenge i think. I kept saves from the early game btw.

I managed to settle the 2 crucial points, the cow rice site to block Sulei and the copper/wheat/cow site which i need to take out barb cities. Developed in a normal way from there emphasizing workers at first then axes to take out the barbs, just got currency 400 bc. With 6 cities, room for 2 more, organized religion coming up, not going totally broke i'm doing fairly well.

OTH i'm surrounded by some very fast teching ais Sulei might become a runaway ai, Darius might beat me to lib.Unlike other deity games i played i don't have much techs or resources to sell atm, so winning from here is not easy. I really could have done with a marble resource but i couldn't get that spot.

I'm not totally sure how to continue, going to lit straight away to outbulb the ais might be best, alternatively i could aim for CS and a very strong capital instead.

I played silverbullet's game a bit further until 620 AD.....

And while i agree that it felt winnable i don't see how. Strictly speaking my position still isn't that bad, developed normally emphasizing AP buildings for production. All the others tech very fast and i just can't keep up in research, Darius gets lib 425 AD, noway that i was going to beat him there. Also Charles vassalized to Sulei so i don't have an easy war victim atm. I just need more land, i won't get it in any easy way on my own continent, an invasion on the probably relatively backward other continent might be an idea as in an isolated start so teching to optics/astro seems best also for research. I need Sulei and Darius to make some big mistakes though otherwise they'll just launch.

I'd be interested in some suggestions about how to continue, also some ideas about how the start should have been played are welcome.

DirkI played this about 1 - 1.5 weeks ago and am winning. I simply sent the saves to silverbullet without mentioning anything here -- do you want them as well?

Can't look at your save right now but will do later.

@Rusten,

I got them from silver yesterday, you timed it all very well.

The main difference between our games is that you didn't go for immediate rex but utilized the philosophical trait to the max by getting a great GS very early. setting the slider to 0 accumulating gold so you could see what to research was also a good move.

I went for currency early which in hindsight was a mistake. I knew i couldn't trade it around and it just didn't do so much on this map. You went COL/CS immed, indeed the capital is great for Buro.

One question left , weren't you concerned about being boxed in, Sulie could have possible taken those barb cities in the north leaving you with ~ 4 cities, i don't know how real this danger is.

@Rusten,

I got them from silver yesterday, you timed it all very well.

....
One question left , weren't you concerned about being boxed in, Sulie could have possible taken those barb cities in the north leaving you with ~ 4 cities, i don't know how real this danger is.

I didn't get those barbarian cities -- Charlemagne did. I simply settled next to them and entered cultural wars for the resources -- there was no risk involved tbh.

I don't know how far into my game you've looked, but it would be better if Suleiman had taken them because then I wouldn't have to war the top 2 deity AIs at the same time. :p

^

looked until 200 ad, i can see you winning from there but i 'll look at the continuation too. I saw you settled next to the barb cities, there's probably always time enough to do something like this. My concern was the barb cities being taken and then other ai cities founded next to them so i took/settled all this land myself ~500 bc.I also guessed i could recover from the early rex but this turned out to be not so easy on deity with these ais.