All Leaders Challenge Game #25:
Celts/Boudica

http://www.civfanatics.net/methos/info_center/images/civ4/leaders/Celts_Boudica.jpg



Pre-Game Thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=290835)

Starting Position (this post, below)
Round 1: 4000 BC to 2725 BC (51 turns) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=7249046&page=4#61)
Round 2: 2725 BC to 1675 BC (42 turns) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=7254202&page=9#175)


The idea of the All Leaders Challenge is that I'm going to play a game with each of the Civ IV leaders. With the help of all the posters who participate, I will attempt to make the most of the leader's unique characteristics: traits, starting techs, unit, and building. Aside from the leader, the other game settings are (mostly) kept constant for the sake of comparison. I will post the saved game files, screenshots, and status reports here as the game progresses. Everyone then has a chance to chime in with their strategy ideas, or voice their frustration (or glee) when I make a mistake. ;)

Everyone is invited to offer opinions and advice, and to make your own attempt at playing the same game. But if you do play a "shadow game", I kindly request that you refrain from posting spoilers--i.e. any facts or even hints about the map, opponents, and so on--before I'm there myself. I'm trying to play the game as authentically as possible.

In this ALC game, I'll be playing as Boudica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boudica), leader of the Celts. I'm playing the game using the Beyond the Sword expansion pack, its latest patch (3.17), and Solver's unofficial patch (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=279724) as well. (EDIT: I have now applied Dresden`s unofficial update to the unofficial patch (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=287712) as well.) The difficulty level is Immortal and the speed is Epic.

Here are some details about the map and other settings:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC25/ALC25_4000BC_01.jpg

In addition, I added two civs, bringing the total number up to nine (including me) from the standard seven. I've been doing this for a few games now and I find it does add a lot to the game--more diplomacy, trading, and war options.

I've used a Fractal map (Standard size as usual) this time. While I enjoy the tectonics maps, I don't know if the AI is really capable of adjusting to the challenges of that map type. Many of you suggested Shuffle, but that would randomly choose Pangaea (a map too much in Boudica's favour), archipelago (too much the other way), or continents (boring!). Fractal would give me the unpredictability some of you were after with Shuffle, while still offering some balance in terms of challenges and advantages. Provided the map wasn't odd in some way; hence my decision to have someone screen it.

I generated three starts. I then had regular ALC contributor Oyzar choose what he thought would be the best map for an ALC Boudica game from the three maps that I generated. I gave him no specific criteria beyond that. In addition to his insightful contributions to these threads, Oyzar and I talk off-line regularly; I trust his judgement.

Regarding the custom options I've chosen: I'm hoping that these settings will add a little more challenge to the game. Immortal has not proved quite as intimidating as I'd thought it would; I noticed, however, that in both the Lincoln and Hammurabi games that I relied heavily on tech brokering. Hence my decision to turn that option on. It seems to be one of the few custom game settings that--at least in my experience with it--doesn't add more of a challenge for the AI than for the human player.

I am also finding that goody huts can be overpowering because they appear in the oh-so-crucial early turns of the game. In addition, since Boudica starts with Hunting and, therefore, a Scout, that gives her an advantage in finding tribal villages (though as I recall all AI civs start with a Scout at Immortal level--am I right about that?). Random events, on the other hand, tend to increase in frequency and import only as the game progresses. Which is why I left them on.

I did not select Aggressive AI because I find that it only makes the early game a little more challenging; if you survive, you'll rocket ahead of the AI in technology while it struggles to pay for all those extra units.

A reminder as to Boudica's unique characteristics:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC25/ALC25_4000BC_02.jpg

And finally, what you've all been eagerly awaiting, the starting position:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC25/ALC25_4000BC_03.jpg

I'd guess that I'm located in the southern hemisphere and not too far from the pole. The silver and the crabs are certainly nice, but not too unbalancing right away, as I will need to research techs I don't currently possess in order to work those tiles. Does researching Fishing followed by Mining make sense to everyone? The start also has some grassland tiles (including at least 3 beside rivers) for cottages to leverage Bureaucracy later on. Hills for production too. Overall, it appears to be a decent capital, not too overpowered.

The only alternative to settling in place would appear to be 1W, across the river; I might gain some more riverside tiles as a result. That, however, will cost me a turn. Should the Scout move 1SW to see if it's worthwhile? On the other hand, we discussed building Stonehenge; it can be challenging to build on Immortal, so the loss of a turn may not be worth it. There's a 3 hammer tile (the SE forested plains hill) I can work right away (at the cost of growth, however).

So deciding to settle in place or not may depend on us agreeing on our initial plan--Stonehenge or not? That will also affect the initial Scout movement: pass on Stonehenge and he should probably go 1SW to see if moving the Settler is worth it; go after the 'henge and I'm probably going to settle in place, so the Scout can head off to explore--probably 1NE and then whatever tile looks best.

And should I start building the 'henge right away and delay my initial growth, or attempt some other builds like a Scout or Warrior, Fishing Boat, and Worker? It's a big tradeoff--freeze early growth and development for the wonder, or focus on growing and improving tiles while losing the wonder.

I look forward to hearing what everyone thinks! I'll try to play the first round tomorrow, and post it, so we don't spend too long debating the start... :lol:

Fishing>mining>BW.
Warrior>WB>worker.
If copper and nearby civ consider rushing otherwise stonehenge.

Settle in place ;)
no early wonders on immortal.

though as I recall all AI civs start with a Scout at Immortal level--am I right about that?
2 scouts for the AI last time I checked (long time, could be changed)

Settle in place

Techs: fishing/mining/BW. If there is copper very near for a second city then the wheel, otherwise archery as tech 4.

Build order: scout/workboat/workboat/warrior/worker/warrior or archer

There may be another food resource to the east or west of the settler, the scout can move either way.

As far as Stonehenge, see what the status is after BW. If it's still reachable and there are no maniacs near you, try and chop it out.

- Moving your Scout SW would only reveal tiles that were going to be in your capital anyway. To see anything useful, you'd have to move two turns, and that's too long. So... send your Scout NE and settle in place.

- I'd say Stonehenge is situational (dependent on what you find by Scouting). So, you need to pick an opening that leaves you with options.
Warrior/Fishing
WorkBoat/Mining
Worker/Bronze Working
is by far the most flexible - it puts you in a position to grow, to whip, to chop, and to find copper. Mining and BW would also give your worker something to do... mining the Silver, and pre-chopping trees.

I suggest you take that opening (which I see pigswill also came up with) - you can add a second WB if it looks like the builds are going to finish before the techs. Then, end the round once BW and the Worker are done. That's when you have to decide whether the Henge is your target... though my inclination is to say it shouldn't be, you'll have too much else to do.

It looks like you have 2 unforested land tiles in your BFC - I bet there's one more food resource in either one of them. I don't think it changes anything though, fishing->mining->BW seems like a no-brainer. But maybe if there's deer.. Then it might be worthwhile to go worker first while teching straight to mining->BW for whipping/chopping.

Settle in place.

Tech: fishing → mining → bronze working.

Build: warrior → work boat → worker

If the worker is going to be completed long before bronze working, squeeze another work boat in there.

The AI starts with scouts at Emperor so I assume they do at Immortal as well :)

As you start off with Mysticism you should do something that uses this. As I suspect an early religion is impossible at this level (as well as not useful, you want to pick another Ai's religion) I think you should go for Stonehenge (it will only take you 30 turns :lol:). At the very least it will make things interesting :D

For knowledge, I see no problems going for initially useful technologies as the religious techs are a waste of time.

So we have:
Settle in place
Stonehenge, WB, WB, worker
Fishing, mining, BW

And an easy win :crazyeye:

I'm not able to give you any constructive advice but I'll keep checking the thread regularly. Good luck and have fun!

It looks like you have 2 unforested land tiles in your BFC - I bet there's one more food resource in either one of them. I don't think it changes anything though, fishing->mining->BW seems like a no-brainer. But maybe if there's deer.. Then it might be worthwhile to go worker first while teching straight to mining->BW for whipping/chopping.

Fishing -> mining -> BW seems pretty obvious, going worker first without a food resource is just not worth it... Build a warrior until you can build workboat...

Would still go fishing -> mining -> BW if there is deer, only difference is that then you do worker first(hooking up the deer and the silver is more than enough to warrant it even if you can't chop imeadiatly after getting it up)...

If there is irrigated corn it might be worth it to go AG first, but not worth to pursue much other resources...

The AI starts with scouts at Emperor so I assume they do at Immortal as well :)

As you start off with Mysticism you should do something that uses this. As I suspect an early religion is impossible at this level (as well as not useful, you want to pick another Ai's religion) I think you should go for Stonehenge (it will only take you 30 turns :lol:). At the very least it will make things interesting :D

For knowledge, I see no problems going for initially useful technologies as the religious techs are a waste of time.

So we have:
Settle in place
Stonehenge, WB, WB, worker
Fishing, mining, BW

And an easy win :crazyeye:

Stonehenge is going to limit expansion too much. Sure you can get it but it'll probably lead to being boxed in too fast and/or being too far behind due to slow expansion. As someone said in the pre-game thread, only worth it if he is isolated and have no good city spots, but then what would be the fun in that?

As someone said in the pre-game thread, only worth it if he is isolated and have no good city spots, but then what would be the fun in that?

I know it's gamey, but it also crossed my mind that if someone's vetted the starting positions to be 'a good map for Boudica,' Sis probably isn't isolated. Still, I wouldn't really expect you to comment on that, Oyzar...

I'd certainly say that if any neighbours have Mysticism, Stone, or Industrious, we should skip it and hope they build it for us. &Even if that's not the case, Boudica wasn't made to build.

I think if you want to go for Stonehenge, I'd do the following:

Tech: Fishing-->Mining-->BW
Build: Stonehenge-->swap to workboat-->stonehenge

Emphasize growth with your hammers going to Stonehenge. When fishing is online, max hammer output. Swap to that forested hill and crank out the workboat. You should be able to get to pop 2, working the crabs and the forested plains hill until Bronze Working is in (sped up by the crab tile gold) and you can chop out the henge pretty quickly and use the whip if necessary. If someone cares to crunch the numbers, I think this should get you your wonder very speedily and prep you nicely to find your copper and get those gallic warriors going.

Obviously, depending on what your scout finds, the game plan should change accordingly.

I'd settle in place and then use judgment as to the best way to explore the land that you don't show via culture.

With fishing->mining->wheel you'll be set for a little while with food, hammers and commerce in your capital plus keeping your worker busy.

Your capital would make for a excellent super-city with settled prophets, IW and Wall Street, so going for Stonehenge and possibly ToA are definate possibilities. Silver, Food and Hills should make this possible, no?

I'd pickup archery if only because you already have hunting and the saved hammers can go toward the wonders early on.

With the plains/hill/forest I'd work it and build a scout and a warrior until you get fishing then a workboat and a worker while researching mining. Complete SH, get archery and polytheism while settling a couple more cities then put your capital on GPP/Wonder production while the others take over further expansion.

Build: Stonehenge-->swap to workboat-->stonehenge

You should be able to get to pop 2, working the crabs and the forested plains hill until Bronze Working is in (sped up by the crab tile gold) and you can chop out the henge pretty quickly and use the whip if necessary.

Nice idea, but you need a worker if you're going to chop, so it then becomes Stonehenge -> WB -> Worker -> Stonehenge - and by that time, you probably want a Warrior anyway for Happy, so it's Warrior -> WB -> Worker -> Stonehenge - and if we're leaving it that late to start Stonehenge, Sis may as well just end the session when the Worker's done and let us look at the map.

Warrior/WB (or 2)/Worker/Discuss still strikes me as the most versatile start.

I'll be interested to see how the "No Technology Brokering" works out. I would have voted against it. I'm not a fan of that option in general, and for this game in particular, I worry that it may backfire on you.

In any game, it just seems strange to me. Why would you disable such a critical part of the game? There's no "no building workers" option. There's no "no resource trading" option. There's no "no boats" option. Why should there be an option for no technology trading? Anyway ...

For this game, it seems like you've removed one of the key benefits of an aggressive war posture. Lots of wars can hurt your economy in all kinds of ways -- troop upkeep, supply costs, over-expansion, war weariness, delayed infrastructure building, diplomatic troubles, etc. One way to remedy that is to extract technologies as part of a peace treaty. If you don't allow yourself that luxury, you might be screwed.

We'll see ...

Depending on the surrounding tiles I would possibly still go for worker first. Techs Fish/Mining/BW and use the silver mine to get the first work boat out. It would probably mean an idle worker for a while but with the quicker teching you could still find him/her something to do.

So possibly worker/wb/wb/warriors, techs as above.

Nice idea, but you need a worker if you're going to chop, so it then becomes Stonehenge -> WB -> Worker -> Stonehenge - and by that time, you probably want a Warrior anyway for Happy, so it's Warrior -> WB -> Worker -> Stonehenge - and if we're leaving it that late to start Stonehenge, Sis may as well just end the session when the Worker's done and let us look at the map.

Warrior/WB (or 2)/Worker/Discuss still strikes me as the most versatile start.

Good point - although you could whip away the unhappy once BW/Slavery comes in, no? SH would immediately negate the whip unhappy with a charismatic monument.

So, yes... it might be easier to go Warrior -> WB -> Stonehenge and use the warrior - not for garrison duty, but to help Sis steal a worker from a neighbor to come in for the chop! :lol:

an average start for an average leader :)

normally i always say worker first. this time though, warrior is better

Sisiutil waits a while to develop an economy and it looks like this game is obviously unwinnable until he picks a major religion to ally with and then eventually consume. After taking the holy shrine, the economy rapidly stabilizes and the now much larger empire techs rapidly to something nifty which is used to a domino effect for further world conquest.

You have a zillion trees. That means the map generator thought that your starting location was poor and gave you lots of trees to compensate. You have silver in the BFC, so settle in place, tech Mining and then BW IMMEDIATELY, chop/whip a settler (since you don't have Copper in the BFC barring some miracle of an unforested hill outside of your current view). Mining the Silver will buy some happyness and a pair of workers can slide the mine in among the chopping mania. :)

Tech roads after the Bronze Working go grab some Copper. Your nearest coastal neighbor is crying out to be taken even if it's Tokugawa settled on a hill. Everyone will have a better capital site than you, so you had better chop out an army immediately so that you can go take some useful land before your very temporary advantage bought by the trees is lost.

Also, the spoiler wasn't really a spoiler. Just a prediction of how this game will go based on prior games. :)

One final thought: It takes a worker a turn to move into a forest. I'm normally a fan of putting multiple workers on a tile to get that tile improved/worked as soon as possible, but on Epic, it takes 1 turn to move to a forest and 5 turns to chop it. It takes 2 workers each 1 turn to move to the same forest and 2.5 turns to chop it. That means chopping individual is 17% more efficient and you don't lose any turns on tiles worked because you're not chopping the forests to work the tiles. You're chopping the forests to get the hammers for Axemen or Stonehenge.


...also, it might be worth chopping out Stonehenge because you'll have a good chance of capturing a holy city and getting a very early Great Priest will take a lot of the economic pressure off of your rapid expansion.

Mining->fishing->BW
Worker->WB-WB->warrior->warrior->

Unless you want a shot at Henge, then worker->warrior->Wb->Henge

I am advocating mining and a worker first because getting that silver online really compensates for the crappy starting techs. It gets you BW faster while the hammers will help regardless.

Stonehenge really depends on whether you have room to rex. by the time the worker is done, you should know what the immediate surrounding terrain is like.

I am with whakamole except that IMHO you should get a worker or a work boat after the first work boat

And settle in place... I can't see much of possible reasons to move.

P.S there is a void in the trees 2 E of the settler... hummmmmm :devil:

Settle in place, Fishing->Mining->BW, warrior->workboat->worker->workboat->settler seems like a pretty straightforward way to start. The only question is whether the first warrior will be out before Fishing is done.

I would think that "no goodie huts" hurts the AI since they are most likely to get the lion's share of them.

Build a worker until you get fishing. Trying to grow to size 2 on a 2 food tile with no early reward (aka a warrior) is stupid.

I know it's gamey, but it also crossed my mind that if someone's vetted the starting positions to be 'a good map for Boudica,' Sis probably isn't isolated. Still, I wouldn't really expect you to comment on that, Oyzar...

I'd certainly say that if any neighbours have Mysticism, Stone, or Industrious, we should skip it and hope they build it for us. &Even if that's not the case, Boudica wasn't made to build.

I said he either have good city spots or isn't isolated(or both)... Any game where that is not true is obviously not winnable...

I'm not sure why there's no technology brokering, but anyway, just settle in place and see what the map provides you.

I would settle in place.
With landlocked food resource: Mining->Bw, otherwise fishing first.
With land food resource: Worker first, without, scout and grow to size 2 synchronized, wb wb worker or wb worker wb.
I wish you would start moving the scout/warrior before discussions so we have all the relevant turn 1 info. :p

I'll be interested to see how the "No Technology Brokering" works out. I would have voted against it. I'm not a fan of that option in general, and for this game in particular, I worry that it may backfire on you.

In any game, it just seems strange to me. Why would you disable such a critical part of the game? There's no "no building workers" option. There's no "no resource trading" option. There's no "no boats" option. Why should there be an option for no technology trading? Anyway ...

For this game, it seems like you've removed one of the key benefits of an aggressive war posture. Lots of wars can hurt your economy in all kinds of ways -- troop upkeep, supply costs, over-expansion, war weariness, delayed infrastructure building, diplomatic troubles, etc. One way to remedy that is to extract technologies as part of a peace treaty. If you don't allow yourself that luxury, you might be screwed.

We'll see ...
I think you're confusing "No Technology Brokering" with "No Technology Trading". The former option, which is the one I've chosen, still allows you to trade technologies. The restriction is that you can't trade away a technology which you yourself did not research (same goes for the AI). So I can still demand techs from the AI for peace. I've found in my off-line games that it slows the pace of tech advancement a little. It also evens out the playing field with the AI a bit, since the AI seems more reluctant, on average, to trade techs in the first place. It also does away with the tactic of selling a tech the AI has almost finished researching for a chunk of gold; once they get within a handful of turns of completing a tech, they won't trade anything for it, apparently preferring to retain the benefit of being able to trade it.

I think you're confusing "No Technology Brokering" with "No Technology Trading".

Oh! Yeah, you're right. I didn't realize that's how it works. That sounds better.

Not a bad start. Only three tiles where metal can pop. I've never had metal pop under my starting position, but I assuming it's possible. Fractals can be interesting maps, especially if you get stuck on a big island or small continent with a psycho.

I don't know about turning off the goody huts, though. The AI civs are going to start with at least one, probably a couple of Scouts. So at best you're only going to remove their 2:1 advantage in popping huts. But on the other hand, that's gold and techs you're not going to get. But yours is the hand on the tiller, Cap'n. The rest of us are just along for the ride.

Settle in place.

Fishing -> Mining -> BW -> IW (I'm not holding my breath on popping Copper with only two or three tiles that can do it and no goody huts means slower early expansion in case there's no metal in the BFC)

'Henge -> WB (when Fishing finishes) -> Worker -> Finish 'Henge -> Warrior or GW (depending on metal popping) -> WB (Settler if no metal)

Since you're not playing with Aggressive AI, you can probably afford to put off the defending unit for a little bit. And if the AI beats you to 'Henge, at least you'll have a little gold for deficits. If the scout turns up a psycho, move the Warrior to the front of the queue and forget I said anything.

Lol, now this is different from the normal 2 pages in an ALC. No talking about where to move the scout/warrior but discussing the build/tech order to the max.

Warrior->WB->worker->chop workboat->Henge sounds good.

Scout move INE to see what is revealed, but settling in place will ex[amd what Sisiutil can see anyway.

A speedy exploation of the map is called for.So build a scout. Then build a couple of workboats from fishing and then mining and bronzeworking. That silver needs a road , so The Wheel comes next. I'd be ery tempted to do sailing and bild a galley for costal exploration.

Whip the first worker and here enough forests to chop a second worker and build Stonehenge andthe Great Wall-though that would require a beeline to Alphabet to have the spies to take advantage of the Great Spy the Great Wall will generate. Stealing those early worker/religious techs appeals. I'd go to masonry for the fifth tech. Let's get those happy duns. You might even get the Pyramids, though I'd suspect you were really Obsolete in disguise.

Not having copper close by would be a major setback, but a couple of settlers would alieviate that and there ought to be some copper not too far away that can be settled. The starting point at the foot of the world intimates a move of capital as Boudica expands north. An early, as possible, start on building the rush force would be ideal.

Good start, settle in place.

Maybe this is time to go wonder-crazy, because you have plenty of forests to chop! I suggest building both Stonehenge and Oracle. It is definitely possible even on immortal with such a good start!

1) Build: warrior (to explore and fogbust; while growing to size 2) - worker (you want chop and get silver online) - Stohenge (must be built before settler or it's too risky) - warrior (for 2nd city) - settler - Oracle (pre-chop).

2) And techs: BW (for chopping) - fishing - polytheism - priesthood - wheel+pottery (OR writing)
Seafood and silver will provide enough commerce to get priesthood fast enough, then wheel+pottery to get MC (or writing to get Col/Aest/Alpha/Monarchy) as free tech. Or if there is not enough time, just get IW for UU.

Okay, lots of advice, some conflicting.

Let's just reiterate what Sisiutil already knows ;)

Starting locations are special.
While there is a risk you lose out on a resource just outside of your BFC, chances are much greater you lose out on a resource by moving. As somebody said above, there could be two hidden resources, one on either side of your current position. Move, and you might lose one of them without gaining something in return.

The RNG stacks things against making this gamble. Settle in place.

Growth is everything early on.
Unless you find food by settling, go Fishing first. Mining can definitely wait.

If you find two grains, Agriculture is a better bet than Fishing.
If you find pigs OTOH, I'd take the seafood first. Cows or Sheep, not even a contest. By researching Animal Handling, you're effectively saying at Immortal level: "I'm not doing Bronze Working until after Archery" and this is unacceptable with such a forested start.

Your start is heavily forested, you need Bronze Working a.s.a.p; but you need to ensure you can work one or two improved food tiles while researching it.

Early speed-research is a gambit best abandoned at high levels.
Yes, the Silver is nice, but not our most valuable tile. Food is more important.

Once your capital grows to size 3, yes, it would be very nice if a Worker had completed a silver mine the turn before... :)

Stonehenge is a key asset for Boudica.
By itself, I agree a well-executed Axe Rush is superior to Stonehenge.

But getting +1 happy is huge for a big portion of the game!

Getting +1 :) +1 :culture: in every city for free is a bargain for the cost of Stonehenge. And you (eventually) get a Great Prophet too... It would be criminal to neglect this opportunity.

But should you build it straight away? No. That would indeed make the cost far too high.

Instead, Stonehenge needs to be chopped. So build a Work Boat and a Worker, explore while researching Bronze Working after a minimum of worker techs, then chop the 'Henge.

If somebody builds it even faster than that, well, then you can always take it from their cold, dead hands.

You should not sacrifice everything to get the SH. But you should definitely not give up on it either. You have a good shot at getting it without having to sacrifice everything else, and this is the best way.

By chopping it, the cost stops at, what, a few Axes. By slow-building it, you sacrifice lots of growth. By not going after it at all, you give up one of the few really good things about your chosen leader.

Then you can chop the rest for an Axe Rush if that's what the map tells you to. Personally, I get the best results from chopping a 2nd, 3rd and 4th Worker (minus any stolen Worker) and then a Settler (lumber supply allowing).


Zapp

PS. And move the Scout out of the BFC. Didn't Corpse establish 1NW is always best? :lol:

Another reason to attempt to build Stonehenge is that if you fail, you will at least have some bonus gold that you'd be hungry for considering that there are no tribal villages. Of course succeeding in building Stonehenge is a far better situation, as has been mentioned several times. If you do succeed I think that large scale whipping will be in order due to the silly amount of happiness you'll have spare.

PS. Kazapp makes a good argument for chopping 'henge!

I bet there is a military resource in one of the two forestless squares. I think setting in place is the best option.

The point of stonehenge is that it will be built in the first 30-40 turns by the AI... He can't build it unless he built it before the first settler and as such the cost is way too high...

Boudica's traits won't advantage her economiclly as some of the A1 you'll encounter, and especially as this is played on Immortal, you'll need all the commerce you can muster, even if its only 1 extra tile, which you gain settling 1W. Naturally before deciding to settle 1W the warrior should move SE first to to see if you're going to miss out on any goodies.
The extra happy caps from Monuments and the Silver gives you an early growth advantage aided by the crabs, so naturally Fishing first followed by Mining and Bronze. If you're lucky enough to have copper nearby I would sneak pottery in before going for Iron Working and The Wheel. Gallic Warriors only require copper or iron. Having a granary and early cottages will help you advance quickly and put you in a good position to whip out an army of gallic warriors.

Playing with two extra civs BUT no 'low sea level'! Well. That's definitely stacking in favour of the human and an early rush. AND you're Boudica!

Without low sea level the two extra civs will mean all civs will be crammed in much closer! This will effectively negate many of the AI's bonuses at Immortal level when it comes to early REX'ing, and we all know how bad the AI is at declaring war when there's no land left in which to expand peacefully. If you're adding extra civs, which I fully endorse by the way, you simply have to lower the sea level.

Best,

Some more thoughts..

As a standard sized medium sea level map with 9 players, it's going to get crowded. This favours an axe rush/expansion even more than normally as oyzar is correct in the fact that you need to build SH before your first settler on immortal.

A single irrigated corn in the BFC would make agriculture and worker a better choice than going for fishing (same food surplus from the corn as from both fishes). I'm in fact not too happy about the fish start, on such a crowded map it's slow.
What could prove to be very useful in the early game is the silver. It could allow getting IW early for a potential axe+gw rush which would increase effectiveness.
GWs can also potentially be fast reinforcers if there's enough hills to join up with the SOD as it moves from one city to the next.

The point of stonehenge is that it will be built in the first 30-40 turns by the AI... He can't build it unless he built it before the first settler and as such the cost is way too high...

I agree completely. Trying to nab 'Henge after the first settler is a BIG gamble and the gold you would receive as a result of losing the race would not compensate for the loss of hammers.

Playing with two extra civs BUT no 'low sea level'! Well. That's definitely stacking in favour of the human and an early rush. AND you're Boudica!

Without low sea level the two extra civs will mean all civs will be crammed in much closer! This will effectively negate many of the AI's bonuses at Immortal level when it comes to early REX'ing, and we all know how bad the AI is at declaring war when there's no land left in which to expand peacefully. If you're adding extra civs, which I fully endorse by the way, you simply have to lower the sea level.

I agree. Stacking the odds in favor of the civ or leader that the human is playing, while fun, makes the game that much easier. Low sea level solves this problem by providing an appropriate amount of additional land.

Wow no tech brokering AND playing Boudica... I tried some Boudica on Emperor... it was a bit of a learning curve to be truthful but now I can do okay but at the end of the day she's not the type of leader I like to play, I want to like her, but I just can't.

It's not cus she's all war, its cus she doesn't get much/any economic help and doesn't really ever get a technological edge to go total war with but gets a truck load of promotions instead to give her more 'advanced' units, I much prefer a leader like Napoleon (Org/Chm) or Stalin (Agg/Ind) when playing a warring game. I really hope you do well with this, because I'll be interested to see how your game played out differently to my own.

However tech brokering for me was critical because of Boudica's difficulty of getting a solid economy running. Although some things are stacked in your favour Sis, no tech brokering is seriously going to hurt you.

Anyway I had a capital much very like this one in my last game as Boudica, no silver though, so that might make your early research much easier. I put Moai, Heroic epic and a bunch of GG's there

no tech brokering is seriously going to hurt you.
It's always going to hurt you. That's the whole point of it.

I mean, Sis probably chose this precisely he was tired of being able to explode each beaker just by fleecing the AIs to catapult his nation into a tech lead over and over again without breaking a sweat. :)

Looking at the start and hearing some of the advice I am reconsidering my Stonehenge reccommendation. It didn't take into account the extra Civs, RExing is going to be a top priority. Especially since grabbing copper is going to be key. Copper is more important than Stone henge. Especially if Sis gets boxed in. Settling South is not an option. And with the polar location there is going to be a lot of tundra which limits early city locations.
I am now in favor of Worker first, warrior then WB. Tech path should be mining->BW->fishing. It is going to take 23 turns to build a worker. It takes 12 turns for mining then 23 turns for BW. When the worker finishes he moves to the silver and mines it. This will take 7 turns. The moment the silver is mined move production to that hill. Start working the silver hill. This should shave atleast one turn off of BW. Move the worker to a forested hillsquare. Poor guy will be idle for 1 or 2 turns only. As soon as BW finishes start mining the plainshill. It will take 7-8 turns to research fishing depending on the overflow from BW. It takes 11 turns to chop/mine a hill. Working the mined silver means 12-16 hammers in the workboat when the worker finishes. Poof, instant work boat. Time elapsed approx. 43 turns. You have a workboat, worker, warrior and minded silver and a mined hill. You have researched fishing->mining->bw and 4 turns of another tech at pop 1 with zerofood in the box
Workboat build would take ten turns to research fishing and then 15 turns to build the boat working a forested plains hill. Then 18 more turns to build a worker. It is now turn 43. You have a workboat, part of a warrior and a worker with 20/33 food in the box. No improvements built. And you are still short some 3-4 turns on BW. Though by the time the worker finishes the mine on the silver it should be complete.
I think the deciding factor is the extra commerce from the silver. You get it on turn 30 vs turn 50. That is 13*5 + 7*2(you switched to the seafood) =79 beakers. You get the added 2 commerce from the seafood for 25 turns. That is 50 beakers. The advantage to WB 1st is getting to pop 6 four turns faster at a cost of 29 beakers and one chop worth of time. At turn 50, when the WB first plan gets the silver online, worker first plan is also at pop2. So both are the same except for the commerce from having the mine for an extra 25 turns and the 7 extra turns to chop a 2nd workboat. That 2nd workboat will easily put the city ahead in food terms vs wb first

Now factor in whipping, Civ Corpse, on alternative strategies.

I'm not nearly as good a player as others here (just Monarch/some Emperor), but I do usually play with two extra civs and no tech brokering. In my experience you can get boxed in very quickly if you go for an early wonder like Stonehenge instead of claiming some land. I tend to pass on Stonehenge these days, even with a charismatic leader, because by the time I've chopped it out the AI civs are REXing all over my best land. Maybe this map won't be as densely populated as some of mine have been, but still I'd rather have to put up monuments in a few good cities than have a nice, shiny Stonehenge but no cities for it to benefit . . .

While I'd still like to see a Stonehenge open, CivCorpse (and others) have merit in suggesting a silver mining start. No tech brokering means you'll need every advantage to keep up with the AI research pace, and the silver is one way to get an early start.

Thing is, with a Mining/BW/Fishing open, and considering Boudicia's starting techs of Mysticism/Hunting, and with no techs available from goody huts... your starting worker will be locked into two tasks only. Mining and chops.

This open, then, means either you'll have to follow a limited-choice tech path to find more productive tasks for your rock hound/lumberjack (I'd guess at least the wheel)... or you'll have to live with a worker who does little more than pre-chops for hundreds of years if you need to focus on other techs (say for example if you have no copper and need to go to IW, or if you find you have an opportunity to get a religion). At least there are a lot of forests to pre-chop in your capital.

I still say that Stonehenge will not only benefit your Charismatic trait, but will also give your civ the additional SH "Creative-lite" trait, allowing you to REX your cities more optimally, knowing you can quickly nab resources in the second tier of the BFC or placing them a little further apart to seal a border to a rival.

I agree on Mining-BW-Fishing.
Of the available techs, there is no evident use for Agriculture, AH, Masonry or Meditation. Mining and Fishing have immediate use.

Mining first to open up the silver, and because it is a prerequisite for BW.
Fishing to open up the crustaceans. Once BW is available, chop the workboats and start cracking the whip.

That all said, a lot depends on what the first border pop and the warrior movement reveals.

I spent a hunk of time doing a paper anaylsis on CivCorpse's plan and concluded that going fishing>mining>BW while building warrior(incomplete)>WB>worker>finish warrior would get BW 4 turns later but city would be pop3 not pop1.

I am now in favor of Worker first, warrior then WB. Tech path should be mining->BW->fishing. It is going to take 23 turns to build a worker. It takes 12 turns for mining then 23 turns for BW. When the worker finishes he moves to the silver and mines it. This will take 7 turns. The moment the silver is mined move production to that hill. Start working the silver hill. This should shave atleast one turn off of BW. Move the worker to a forested hillsquare. Poor guy will be idle for 1 or 2 turns only. As soon as BW finishes start mining the plainshill. It will take 7-8 turns to research fishing depending on the overflow from BW. It takes 11 turns to chop/mine a hill. Working the mined silver means 12-16 hammers in the workboat when the worker finishes. Poof, instant work boat. Time elapsed approx. 43 turns. You have a workboat, worker, warrior and minded silver and a mined hill. You have researched fishing->mining->bw and 4 turns of another tech at pop 1 with zerofood in the box

your approach would also generate more than enough hammers for a second warrior before you can start on the boat. you could still put them in Stonehenge of course.

1-23 worker, any tile, 2h left
24-28 warrior, 3h tile, mine hill (takes 8 turns,including moving to it)
29-31 SH, 3h tile, mine hill
32-33 SH, 3h5c tile, worker move 2 plains forest, hill 1 turn idle
34-40 SH, 3h5c tile, worker mines forested hill
41-44 WB, 3h5c tile, worker finishes mining forested hill,

1 worker, 1 workboat, 1 mined silver hill, 1 mined plains hill, 48 hammers
into stonehenge, or slightly more than 2 extra warriors/scouts, 65 extra commerce collected

The following approach is even better altough it delays the warrior.

1-10 prebuild worker, 40 hammers collected
11-21 workboat, 3h tile
22 workboat 1h 2f tile. workboat done with 2f stored
23-32 finish worker, 4f 2c tile
33-40 mine hill, warrior, 4f 2c tile, now size 2 with 1f stored
41-44 finish warrior, 4f2c and 3h5c tile

1 worker, 1 workboat, 1 mined silver hill, 62 extra commerce, size 2
with 9 food stored, BW finished on turn 41, the worker will have
chop/mined another hill before it is needed, there is one more forest
left.

Henge and a copper city are all you need. Silver and seafood for decent commerce at the start. Get a copper city online and start spamming woad production. Then take your new cities while making your enemy weaker and use the early GP to get you out of the tech hole.

Care must be taken with no brokering that the hole does not get too big of course.

Having played the opening rounds of a game with similar settings, I'd like to point out something everyone else seems to have missedI am also finding that goody huts can be overpowering because they appear in the oh-so-crucial early turns of the game. In addition, since Boudica starts with Hunting and, therefore, a Scout, that gives her an advantage in finding tribal villages (though as I recall all AI civs start with a Scout at Immortal level--am I right about that?).No goody huts means no getting gold from them, which means each city you add immediately slows down your research. Which in turn means pottery had better be high on your research list, or at the very least getting that silver mine up and running.

I started with marble in my BFC, and foolishly prioritized masonry, thinking I'd be able to get ToA or Oracle, instead of pottery. Now, I have to wait another 18 turns before I can start building cottages in some of my cities, so that I can research something plus place a few more cities.

I'm not nearly as good a player as others here (just Monarch/some Emperor), but I do usually play with two extra civs and no tech brokering. In my experience you can get boxed in very quickly . . .

I sort of figured that with Boudica, getting boxed in was half the fun :hammer:

your approach would also generate more than enough hammers for a second warrior before you can start on the boat. you could still put them in Stonehenge of course.

1-23 worker, any tile, 2h left
24-28 warrior, 3h tile, mine hill (takes 8 turns,including moving to it)
29-31 SH, 3h tile, mine hill
32-33 SH, 3h5c tile, worker move 2 plains forest, hill 1 turn idle
34-40 SH, 3h5c tile, worker mines forested hill
41-44 WB, 3h5c tile, worker finishes mining forested hill,

1 worker, 1 workboat, 1 mined silver hill, 1 mined plains hill, 48 hammers
into stonehenge, or slightly more than 2 extra warriors/scouts, 65 extra commerce collected

The following approach is even better altough it delays the warrior.

1-10 prebuild worker, 40 hammers collected
11-21 workboat, 3h tile
22 workboat 1h 2f tile. workboat done with 2f stored
23-32 finish worker, 4f 2c tile
33-40 mine hill, warrior, 4f 2c tile, now size 2 with 1f stored
41-44 finish warrior, 4f2c and 3h5c tile

1 worker, 1 workboat, 1 mined silver hill, 62 extra commerce, size 2
with 9 food stored, BW finished on turn 41, the worker will have
chop/mined another hill before it is needed, there is one more forest
left.

I like your 2nd set of build orders better than my original plan. Though if you work the 3h tile 9 turns, then a 1F 2h for one turn then a 2F 1H tile the last turn you get 3 food stored. Though working a3H tile the entire time on the WB gives you overflow into the worker build.

I sort of figured that with Boudica, getting boxed in was half the fun :hammer:

As long as you have access to a metal, and aren't being boxed in by an AI with an early defensive bonus (Hammurabi, Sitting Bull).

I like your 2nd set of build orders better than my original plan. Though if you work the 3h tile 9 turns, then a 1F 2h for one turn then a 2F 1H tile the last turn you get 3 food stored. Though working a3H tile the entire time on the WB gives you overflow into the worker build.

You want to store 2 food because on epic, it takes 22 to grow, and you have a 4 food crab source.

Forget Stonehenge and have your second settler ready to claim copper. Without metal things will be tough for the Celtic Queen.

You want to store 2 food because on epic, it takes 22 to grow, and you have a 4 food crab source.

It's 22 food on normal speed and 33 on epic to grow to size 2

It's 22 food on normal speed and 33 on epic to grow to size 2

Man the mind's going early. Then 1 food is best.

The following approach is even better altough it delays the warrior.

1-10 prebuild worker, 40 hammers collected
11-21 workboat, 3h tile
22 workboat 1h 2f tile. workboat done with 2f stored
23-32 finish worker, 4f 2c tile
33-40 mine hill, warrior, 4f 2c tile, now size 2 with 1f stored
41-44 finish warrior, 4f2c and 3h5c tile

1 worker, 1 workboat, 1 mined silver hill, 62 extra commerce, size 2
with 9 food stored, BW finished on turn 41, the worker will have
chop/mined another hill before it is needed, there is one more forest
left.

I like your 2nd set of build orders better than my original plan. Though if you work the 3h tile 9 turns, then a 1F 2h for one turn then a 2F 1H tile the last turn you get 3 food stored. Though working a3H tile the entire time on the WB gives you overflow into the worker build.

Nice micro analysis. Just because I don't have my calculator with me (and I admittedly slept through most of advanced calculus), can you guys let us know if there would be any benefit in either plan to include 1 turn of anarchy to revolt to slavery... in order to turn stockpiled seafood into hammers via whip? Or would it be worth the population reduction to expedite the builds?

Round 1: 4000 BC to 2725 BC (51 turns)

Okay! You said settle in place, I settled in place.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC25/ALC25_2725BC_01.jpg

The deer was a nice surprise--a food tile I can improve immediately with my starting techs.

It reinforced, for me, the suggestion several of you had: build a Worker first.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC25/ALC25_2725BC_02.jpg

After the Worker, I built two Warriors.

Meanwhile, my Scout began exploring and quickly met my two immediate neighbours.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC25/ALC25_2725BC_03.jpg

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC25/ALC25_2725BC_04.jpg

Interesting combination there. And they're both Spiritual, too. Saladin presents a bit of a challenge with his Protective units. They would be a very good workout for the Guerilla III Gallic Warriors several of you have been urging me to build.

Mansa could be a good source of techs, but if that's it for other civs on the continent and I kill off Saladin, Mansa won't trade anything without another civ present. Or is Mansa the sole exception to that? I don't think so, I seem to recall that the tech-trading uniqueness about Mansa is that he's the only one willing to trade monopoly techs. Or am I wrong about that, too? It's been a while since I played against him.

And since I left vassal states on, vassalizing Mansa and outsourcing research to him could be an option. Think about it!

But of course I'm getting ahead of myself. As you can see, I was also following the suggested research path, Mining to start, followed by Bronze Working.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC25/ALC25_2725BC_05.jpg

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC25/ALC25_2725BC_06.jpg

And is there copper close by? You betcha!

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC25/ALC25_2725BC_07.jpg

Not in the capital's BFC, but tantilizingly close. The only complication is that I soon discovered that Saladin is due north of me, and therefore a threat to grab that copper tile before me. Once the camp for the deer and the mine for the silver were done, I set about chopping out a Settler.

I then obtained a tech to get those two crab tiles on-line.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC25/ALC25_2725BC_08.jpg

On the last turn of the round, I found out I was next-to-last in culture.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC25/ALC25_2725BC_09.jpg

Well, it's good not to be the lowest guy on the totem pole. Y'know, for a change.

Last tech of the round:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC25/ALC25_2725BC_10.jpg

I've selected Pottery as my next tech, but I've ended the round here so we can discuss whether I should stick with it or pursue something else.

A look at the map:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC25/ALC25_2725BC_11.jpg

So where's the best place for copper city? To get it on-line ASAP, the city should be located right next to it--I was thinking of the tile 1 NE of the copper to have both it and the wheat in the city's first cultural ring long before a monument is built. In which case, perhaps I should research Agriculture next. It should also help make Pottery cheaper.

Lots of tundra--not a surprise, I knew I was way down near the bottom of the southern hemisphere. But there is lots of early, pre-Calendar happy around: silver, gold, wine, and even ivory (though I'll have to pry the latter from Saladin's cold, dead fingers).

Anyway, I look forward to the first set of dot maps.

Finally, a look at the top 5 cities and wonders.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC25/ALC25_2725BC_12.jpg

So no one's built Stonehenge yet, but that doesn't mean it hasn't been started. I dunno, turn 51 seems awfully late. Maybe I should focus on expansion as many of you have been urging, then military. Saladin starts with Mysticism--maybe he'll build it for me. Then again, it looks like he's been focused on expansion, so I kind of doubt that he's bothered. I suspect I'll get a message that it's been built somewhere very early in the next round.

So that was a longer round that I anticipated, but it took a long time to go through all the initial moves many of you suggested. The next two rounds, I think, will be crucial, so I look forward to your collective advice.

Normally I dont like settling on copper, but in this case....it makes sense. Youre only losing 3 hammers since its on a plains hill. You pick up alot more grassland, the spices for 1 extra food, and an extra hill.....all workable given the food thats also available. Its also an easy choice for Heroic Epic. The wheat can be irrigated with CS as well.

If you settle on the copper. You can get another worker out of the capitol with a chop....1 worker builds a road while the other chops a barracks at capitol....then chop axes till Sally is gone....or at least trimmed back. Mansa will trade no matter what....thats just how he is.

Try to get to Alphabet while beating up on Sally so you can extort techs for peace.

Nothing to add guys, sorry - just subscribing! Been looking forward to you playing one of my favorite leaders for a while now! Good luck man. Grab that copper and give em hell!

Copper so close? Perrrrrrrrfect :trouble:

Of course, neither of those guys is very fun to rush, but that will just give you a chance to showcase the Celtic UU, right?

Looking good. I'd say if you want to get your slavery on, whipping that settler would net you enough spillover for a workboat, which would regrow your capital pretty quickly.

Sal's already got BW (he's running slavery), so it's probably worth it to tech pottery then writing to open borders and scout what kind of resources he has. (With AH as well to see if horses are present, of course)

I'm thinking there is likely one other civ in this land... otherwise, your espionage ratings would be near parity, correct? You've got a 3:2 ratio going with both Mansa and Sally, so they're probably dividing espionage against you and an unknown civ, but I can't say for certain (somebody with more insight on the AI espionage behavior have any ideas?)

The one thing I see is that gold & floodplains location may be the solution to Boudica's inherent financial weakness. Of course, you'll have to get rid of that lime green city, first. :groucho:

Mansa could be a good source of techs, but if that's it for other civs on the continent and I kill off Saladin, Mansa won't trade anything without another civ present. Or is Mansa the sole exception to that? I don't think so, I seem to recall that the tech-trading uniqueness about Mansa is that he's the only one willing to trade monopoly techs. Or am I wrong about that, too?
When you are alone with Mansa, every tech he knows but you don't know will be a monopoly tech for him--but he will trade it to you, because he has iTechTradeKnownPercent=0.
Let Saladin do the dotmapping for you and let Mansa research ABC for you (trade Aesthetics).

I guess history will repeat itself again here, once you kill Saladin the game will be in the bag...
Go Obelix!

settle one north east of copper, and research agri

Some guy wrote an article on the Early Rush in the strategy sub-forum. Maybe you should see if it really works.
Agri before pottery (should give you a slight discount on pottery for pre-req iirc).

I agree with tycoonist, at size 7 (your current happy cap for a city there it would get 19 production, or 18 + a cottage or just stagnate at size 6 for now).
After settling that city I would work toward IW (to rush Saladin) with help of the silver and a few cottages at the capital, I think writing can be saved for later if this is decided.
Possibly the western gold could be grabbed, preferable on coast to hook up with Sailing, but the land is pretty crappy over there.

Both MM and Sal likes to found religions, I don't know if we should hope Sal founds one or not since it would make a rush on him even harder but otoh it would net a holy city to help with the MM lovefest.

Saladin's probably building Stonehenge for you. I find it difficult to believe he wouldn't try, he and the Indians always get it in my games. You certainly have almost no chance of getting it yourself now. Don't waste the hammers. ;)

I like the site north of the hill (that's between the copper and the wheat). You'll get the copper and wheat, and also the cow. With the wheat for growth, and some workshops on the plains, it could be a mighty production city. Though I say that without having drawn a dot map or looked closely at the other locations.

Medina is already at 3 pop. :eek:

NE of the copper seems the best spot for your second city, although it will be short on food for a while. Monument as its first build (working the forested plains hill?).

Agr. next, but after that what about going for IW. This setup seems to require rushing Saladin, so why not use your UU? Since you only need copper for it you know it will be available.

I don't know if it's worth founding any more cities until after Saladin is dead. Focus production on workers, barracks and axes (until IW is done).

I'd say if you want to get your slavery on, whipping that settler would net you enough spillover for a workboat, which would regrow your capital pretty quickly.

The problem with whipping is that you lose the silver miner. :( I would just let the settler finish, then build the workboat while growing to pop 3. That way you can work the crabs, deer and silver.

Both MM and Sal likes to found religions, I don't know if we should hope Sal founds one or not since it would make a rush on him even harder but otoh it would net a holy city to help with the MM lovefest.

FYI, since Sisiutil didn't mention it, the first 2 religions have already been founded. The Monotheism religion will probably be founded soon, but that should be it before the rush.

Plop your city down 1NE of copper and build a cheap barracks there and start making axemen and a spear or two. The whole point of settling next to the metal is to obviate the need for a monument. And if Sal builds Stonehenge you won't need to build any monuments ever. Research agriculture and AH. I bet you've got horses in the grassland 2E of the capital.

First I thought I'd agree with Cabledawg.
Access to copper asap is vital.
You do loose some hammers from pop 2 but you gain some hammers before pop2+mine is built.
On the other hand you need culture to access the food resources ...
A good option is of course 1n of copper but is it better...?
Seems the question is if you want:
A. to build mine+extra roads with delayed axes in capital ... or
B. build a monument for later food access in city2 but earlier axes in capital.

On top of the Copper. Faster and the city still has plenty of food and production.

Terrible land. I think you want an Axe rush or an Axe/Cat rush.

The former would be with two cities and chopping.

For the latter maybe you can stick to two cities (or three, but I don't know where), build axes, bulb Math, and research Construction at 100%.

One option is to grab just Medina with Axes, settle on the Wine and maybe one other city (like Wheat/Cow/Gold), then get in a Cat war before Longbows.

1N is much better. You get 2 hammers from cows and 6 from the mine, and you can skip the monument.

I wouldn't be too worried about the success immortal level axe rush from that close, especially when his #2 cities is flood plain rich/production poor, and won't have river defense. The big question is if you can take out his capital (if it's not on a hill) before he gets iron (or is really lucky with copper).

NE of copper is better than north coz if you've got no culture Medina would pinch the cows with a border pop. Its also quicker to research agric for wheat than AH for cows.

Another vote for settling on the copper. It gives you 3 hammers permanently, better defence being on a hill and you certainly won't have the cows in your culture. Until Medina is yours that is. ;)

Also I would forgo the early rush here and as someone else mentioned get construction for catapults before attacking. We've seen the early axe rush plenty of times so would be nice to see cats in action along with your Gallic Warriors.

The land around you isn't great :( but a couple of sites the 2 deer/wine commerce and the fish/wheat for whipping but nowhere really stands out.

Mansa is likely to zoom ahead in tech so I would go for something like agr/pot/writing/iw/sailing (extra 2 food in Bibracte from lighthouse would be great + trade routes)/maths/construction. Run scientists in Bibracte to help with the tech rate. Build a couple of cottages as well but leave most of the forests for chopping after math is in for a quick army of cats.

After all that go and find some better lands. I'm sure Sal won't mind giving up his. :D

Looking forward to the next round.

(Edit I forgot the most important tech. Masonry I expect Duns in every city. :) )

No do not wait until catapults

Don't forget masonry for dun's and the UU guerilla upgardes. I vote a UU rush without catapults. You'll take some losses at first city but the survivors will have that 50% withdrawl and you should be able to mop up, especially if you knock out his military resources with a small pillager stack.

I am an emperoro/Monarch player but everything I have read on these forums seams to suggest settling ontop of a strategic resource this early. Put the city ontop of the copper and start on a monument. Once you soem seafood, build a barracks and some axes and kill Saladin. Decide on mansa later.

Boudica, early copper, decent food, slow starting Sal??? Go get em'!

I made a dotmap for the western peninsula:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=188721&d=1221567296

Copper dot: Copper/Wheat city: one NE of the copper
After Medina is taken, the west is cut off and can be settled at will:
Golden dot: Gold/Marble/Wheat city 1 SW of Marble.
Light blue dot: Fish/Spice city 1NW of fish.
Dark blue dot: Fish/Cow city 1NW of fish.

In the east one or two riverside cities are possible, for post levee production centres. Exact location depends on removal of fog, and proximity to Mansa Musa.

1) Research Agriculture
2) Settle copper city, build barracks
3) Improve Copper
4) Improve Wheat
5) Defeat Saladin

Saladin again!? How many games in a row has he been in now...

Oh well... with Boudicas mediocre teching abilities you dont wait til cats to chop Saladin's fingers off with your weapon of choice (Gallic or Axes). There's a chance he might get Longbows or worse Crossbows by then and we all know what happens after that, particularly with him being Protective.

Mansa I believe will trade even if you are alone with him but I too suspect there's somebody else around.

Kazaap: I should have said no tech brokering will hurt even more than usual playing Boudica :P.

Regarding Mansa and trading. He willt rade with you if you are the only 2 arround but his demands are rather excessive especially if he's dealing from a position of strngth (techwise). My suggestion with him is to get Fuedalism fast and vassal him early. The dictate to him what to tech.

Oh well, you have missed the chance of Stonehenge and I suspect the game is lost now :cry: :lol:

For settling the copper city I was in two minds, both on the copper and 1NE have their advantages, but Wilhelmus's dot map sealed it for me. The land on the Peninsular is not the best and 1NE is much better for building other cities. It will take longer to get it on line, but in the long term will give better cities while you are waiting for defeat.

There is also two good cities to the East, one taking 2 deer and wines and one for cattle and elephants, plus the two cities prebuilt for you and you will have a nice core.

Did I miss something or didn't you chop anything else besides a Settler? :confused:

Of course you should Axe Rush Saladin - his capital isn't even on a hill. Don't wait for anything, not Gallic Warriors, not Catapults, and don't build any more Settlers - take the arabian cities instead.

With Gold and Ivory Sal's lands seem very attractive. Don't let anyone talk you out of taking these lands for yourself asap! :)

Since the target timeframe for development is the Classical Era, this means pre-Civil Service.

So that Copper city will be food-poor, regardless of where you settle it. However, if you settle the city directly on the Copper, you gain the resource immediately while also grabbing the bonus production from the city tile.

How many hammers does settling on a Copper Plains Hill tile give you? 2 or 3? I'm not sure, but the bottom line is that you get those hammers without incurring a food deficit. If you have surplus food (which will be tough already), then it means you can work an extra Plains Hill or Grassland Hill tile.

Once you take Medina I'm wondering if you might want to even move the capital there. Bit more central, and it would be a great cottage capital under Bureaucracy. Gold there is nice too!

I'm with the NE crowd for the second city. You still would like to have a barracks, and that can be done while the copper is being hooked up.

I'd keep checking with Sal to see if he gets writing sometime soon and can open borders for scouting.

How great would it be if he's building Stonehenge? Not only could you get the nice wonder, but it means he spent hammers on that rather than units!

Settle 1NE of the copper, built 8-10 axes, and take Medina!

On the copper will let you build the troops that much sooner. I'm not convinced that the fish/spice city on the dot map is that great a city, anyway. Get the troops online and go kill Saladin before he starts plunking down his double-culture libraries and putting the squeeze on you.

Well, the axe rush and complete elimination of Saladin seems to be the one and only thing we need to accomplish right now. Let's face it, his two cities are in most excellent commerce generating spots, which is EXACTLY what Boudica needs to keep the war machine running in that period of time between Iron Working and Guilds/Banking. With her, I find it is pretty easy to kill off the close neighbors before Gunpowder, but it becomes very difficult to manage the economy. I see no reason why this game would be any different. Killing off Saladin will also probably slow down the other guy's research a bit, which will hopefully be a good thing.

I think I like the idea of settling on the copper better than the dotmap's suggestion. It will be a much better city in the long run, and more importantly, it will take fewer tiles from Medina. (Medina, I will second the opinion voiced above, will be a very good canditate for the new capital and could probably carry the economy for centuries after Civil Service.) Settling on the copper would mean you could settle a city 1E of the mountain/1N of the cow, which will pick up a lot of that river as well as have some nice production (I see two grassland hills) tiles. (Downside=Volcano Zone.)

The yellow city on the dotmap (with the gold and marble) will probably become a very important city, as it sure looks like at least one strategic resource is going to be in the BFC.

I think axe rushing protective Sal will be difficult with the land Sis rolled. I'm quite often wrong though, so it could probably be done. Waiting for Cats is crazy, but IW will unlock a UU that I've rushed with effectively.

I've taken out protective leaders with them, and it hurts, but those who lived got very nice promotions and I got a lot of use out of them later.

You will need techs for food and economy and should pursue them. I would also advocate masonry for the UB and promotion and IW for the UU. As to pulling that off on Immortal with this land, I'll let you show me. ;)

It seems most people agree that rushing Saladin is for the best with this poor land we're otherwise left to use.
The question is where to settle copper city.

On top of copper hooks it up the fastest but it also loses 4 hammers which is quite a substantial loss mid-term. It gives the hill defensive bonus, but we're about attacking here, not defending. OTOH on low levels (size 6-7) it still gives roughly the same hammer output as not settling on the copper so for a rush with only axes it can be viable.

1N Get's the cow initially but Medina is going to steal it until we get a monument +15 culture and then a few extra turns possibly (haven't calculated) to steal it back. This will slow down growth considerably and leave the city handicapped for some time. It also wastes a forest. AH is also a more expensive tech to research than Agriculture.

1NE Gives a few less grasslands overall long term but can get 20 production at size 7 (didn't count city tile itself before) or 19 at size 6, which is great for an early rush. It can also work the wheat tile from the start with the research of Agriculture.

I think if you go for IW and gallic warriors which is my recommendation, settle the city 1NE of copper.
If you go for quickest possible axe-only rush, settle on copper.

Waiting for construction seems dangerous and unnecessary here with no other really good commerce spots (gold city would be pretty crappy) and lacking ivory for WEs. I don't think you should do this.

I think the guerrilla promotions are the way to go with the Gallic warriors -- there's a line of hills leading straight into the heart of Arabia. You might want to go straight for Mecca -- the approach can be done all on hills -- so no need for a shock axe defender. Doing this makes sense to me because Medina is such a production-poor city, that waiting to take it won't be as penalizing in terms of newly-produced defenders.

UU Rush means swords and that means CG2 + Walls + Cultural defences. Looks like no Guerilla Warfare here.

He techs IW after fishing and wheel.. He will barely hook up copper / get barracks up before he'll start pumping out gallics.. No way to rush before the AI get walls at any rate...

As mansa will trade with you even if it is just you and him you should have no qualms about wiping out saladin(although it might be hard if he have some cities on hills).

Whatever axes/gallics he build should go out barbhunting for that tantalizing 1 xp for level up before you rush... Might be hard to find barbs though...

RE: Dotmap.

Kinda sketchy land on that western peninsula. Maybe wait till IW comes around and hope it can help you out. Not a lot of production in the coastal cities with Wilhelmus' map. Kill Saladin and backfill. The copper site is where I'd put it also.

Re: barb-hunting.

Animals should be around somewhere.

Not actually going to settle any other cities than the copper city before taking out saladin so it'll be interesting to see which of his cities we'll keep...

Does Saladin have writing yet? Probably not, but it would be nice to look around his land a bit to see if Mecca is on a hill. That would help determine whether we go with axes or gallic warriors . . .

Given what we know rushing with axes seems like the safer bet. Saladin is at his weakest now, and Sis has easy access to the copper. Delaying for IW might not be worth it if Saladin throws up some cheap city walls and pumps out the protective archers. If you're really lucky he's happily building Stonehenge right now. :yumyum:

I'd love to see the manly gallic warriors in action here to showcase the UU, but that may not be the best strategy given Sis' current position. :( Still, after Saladin's through maybe Sis will find another vict . . . er . . . playmate for the UU.

I would build the city E of the copper for the extra hammer as that cow is not going to matter any time soon...

If Saladin manages to found a religion and spread it to MM, they may team-up against you. Spiritual leaders tend to defend their brothers of their own faith.

Settling on the copper not only has short term benifits, but even long term, that city will be more productive than anywhere else near the copper. There is no downside to settling on the copper. The 3 hammers youll lose from settling on the copper vs working it is made up by the fact that working it produces no food.....so those 2 food you save can work an extra mine......which youll gain an extra hill tile by settling on the copper.

When this game is over, someone show a pic of their city not on the copper in the late game and Ill show a pic of the city on the copper. Ill guarantee that on the copper has more production.

Settle on copper, rush Saladin. Don't wait for the UU. Your land is quite crappy (silver notwithstanding), while Saladin has rich flood plains. Let's change that, shall we? :lol:

Mansa *will* trade monopoly techs, even if he's Annoyed with you. (I think Willem will do the same, they are the only AI's who will trade monopoly techs.)

Nice micro analysis. Just because I don't have my calculator with me (and I admittedly slept through most of advanced calculus), can you guys let us know if there would be any benefit in either plan to include 1 turn of anarchy to revolt to slavery... in order to turn stockpiled seafood into hammers via whip? Or would it be worth the population reduction to expedite the builds?

I was not aware you could turn stockpiled food into hammers.

Settle right smack dab on top of the copper. IIRC a copper plains hill makes a 3H city center. That is a quick monument then lotsa hammers. Before the axespam begins you might want to chop/whip rush another settler to grab a 3rd city 5E of coppertown.

Regarding the techy lovefest. I wouldn't try and wipe Saladin out right from the start. I would take Medina and any cities west of there. I would chip away at him 2 cities one war, 2-3 cities the next war. If you spend too much time at war you will fall too far behind Mansa.

Settling on top of the copper means you'll need a monument to grab the wheat.. not optimal...

IIRC a copper plains hill makes a 3H city center.
This is correct, I've settled on top of just such a tile in a MP pitboss game I'm playing and the yield is 3H.

Settling on top of the copper means you'll need a monument to grab the wheat.. not optimal...
An excellent point, which is why I'm leaning to the tile 1NE of the copper--the brown city on Wilhelmus' dot map.

I was not aware you could turn stockpiled food into hammers.

Stockpiled food turns into hammers via growing into a new population point to be whipped.

Or, you should try my leftover meatloaf. After stockpiling that for a few days, it's durable enough to pound a nail. ;)

I'll skip that meatloaf.

*puts in vote for on copper*

Whats more important at the moment? Food or Axes? If we want to rush Saladin, it's Axes.

Settling on top of the copper means you'll need a monument to grab the wheat.. not optimal...

Until you actually get your worker to farm the thing, it's only a 2F1H tile. In other words, you can work a grassland forest for the exact same effect.

Settle on the copper and focus your worker on chopping around your capital, building a trade route so that the capital can build Bronze units as well, etc. Once your worker runs out of stuff to chop, then go build the farm on the wheat; your borders will probably have expanded by then. I don't know how worth it is to avoid automatically hooking up the copper just for the experience of having to run your worker away from chopping forests so that you can farm and mine up there in order to be able to whip bronze troops in your secondary city where you were probably building a monument anyway while waiting for either the copper or the wheat to be hooked up.

Until you actually get your worker to farm the thing, it's only a 2F1H tile. In other words, you can work a grassland forest for the exact same effect.


How many grassland forests will be available, assuming that we settle on the Copper?


Settle on the copper and focus your worker on chopping around your capital, building a trade route so that the capital can build Bronze units as well, etc. Once your worker runs out of stuff to chop, then go build the farm on the wheat; your borders will probably have expanded by then. I don't know how worth it is to avoid automatically hooking up the copper just for the experience of having to run your worker away from chopping forests so that you can farm and mine up there in order to be able to whip bronze troops in your secondary city where you were probably building a monument anyway while waiting for either the copper or the wheat to be hooked up.

I'll agree that settling on the Copper is better provided that you have enough grassland forests to work before the 1st border pop comes. But it's hard to see from the map whether there are enough.

On the copper people: The plan is to build axes while stagnating and working only the plains hill mine (7 hammers per turn)?

Settling on the plains hill 1E of the copper, if the wheat gets farmed immediately, means 9 turns of working just the farmed wheat (36 food -- is that right for epic?), for 3 hpt, and then working the copper+wheat afterwards, for 9 hpt (and you'll grow again after around 20 turns). In those first ~30 turns, you'll have around 210 hammers from the settle-copper-stagnate approach (30*7), and about the same from the settle 1E-farm wheat-work copper approach (10*3+20*9).

This is admittedly approximate -- I'm not sure either way how fast you can get the improvements up. But I think there is a break-even point -- if you want to DoW within 30 turns or so, settle on the copper. If you want to DoW beyond 30 turns from now, settle 1E. Settling on the copper also means going to IW right now, and getting gallic warriors in the field sooner rather than later.

EDIT: for reference, Sisiutil DoW'd Zara on turn 108 of the last ALC. That would be 57 turns in the future -- I feel safe saying that 1E of the copper would be a better spot in that timeframe.

We're only talking about the length of time to build a quick monument and pop the borders. After that, on the copper gets just as much use of the Wheat.

I think waiting for IW + Asterix & Obelix is better.
A Guerrilla 2 GW is a great Worker stealer and very nice for pillaging metals + cutting supply lines. There are quite a lot of hills in Saladin's territory. A CR1 C1 GW gets much better odds vs. a fortified CG1 Dr1 Archer in a city with Walls than a comparable Axe does for a comparable Archer in a city with 20% culture. The values are 54.4% vs. 25.3% (slightly better when promoting to Cover instead of CR1). The Archers need CG2 to bring the odds back down to 24.1% for the GW, but those Archers will be rare and might be softened with Guerrilla 3 GWs.
So I don't vote for the ultra short term settling on top of Copper version, I like 1NE better.

Monument mean he get one less axe/gallic.. also not settling on the plains hill means ~1 less gallic / axe by the time he attacks... Seems like it is way better than the long term spot that gains the spot as saladins city gets the cow anyways...

I would settle on the copper if medina were his capital. However, it isn't, and medina will be easy to conquer. You don't even have a barracks or the workboats, you won't get axes any faster by settling on the copper.

If you wait until iron working, saladin will probably have iron working and some axes.

He will not steal the cows if you have a monument before he pops. He will output 1 culture per turn, so you will you. And once you pop, you'll output 20 culture per turn in the cow tile.

settling on the copper loses 3 hammers. not worth it.

I would settle on the copper if medina were his capital. However, it isn't, and medina will be easy to conquer. You don't even have a barracks or the workboats, you won't get axes any faster by settling on the copper.

This is an excellent point. I was debating on whether or not to settle on the copper, but I think this makes settling 1NE most favorable.

I might consider a city directly on the copper rather than 1NE a better city as maybe a financial leader, but in this case, you're Boudica. You're looking for prime production cities, a 1NE of the copper is a good example of one.

Did I miss something or didn't you chop anything else besides a Settler? :confused:

Of course you should Axe Rush Saladin - his capital isn't even on a hill. Don't wait for anything, not Gallic Warriors, not Catapults, and don't build any more Settlers - take the arabian cities instead.

With Gold and Ivory Sal's lands seem very attractive. Don't let anyone talk you out of taking these lands for yourself asap! :)


How do you know Sal's capital is on a hill? I didn't see the capital on the map.

Settle 2nd city 1NE of copper and chop axes.


Mansa *will* trade monopoly techs, even if he's Annoyed with you. (I think Willem will do the same, they are the only AI's who will trade monopoly techs.)

Willem is not included in this.

Think Scottish highlander. They only took on the english directly when the odds were in their favor. Otherwise they stayed in the hills and made pillaging runs.

So you might declare war earlier than usual, when your first 4 GW's are built. Pre-position them outside sally's border near his strategic resources. DoW and pillage those resources, then proceed to pillage every resource and road as you build more GW's. With Dun's you have little to fear of counter attack, especially if your copper city is on a hill.

Often the AI will send reinforcements to the city he thinks most under threat (and leave only 2 archers in his capital!). So threaten medina while pillaging and building more GW's, then zip up the hill chain with your assembled army to his capitol and take it. Raze other non-stellar cities, then take your now veteran army back to Medina and kill Sally for good.

Mansa is the ultimate trading maniac - he'll trade with everyone, (except for when he's Furious or if they're his worst enemy), trades monopoly techs, and has the highest WFYAGTA limit.

BUT he's nice to have as a trading partner only when you're both equally advanced. At Immortal, he will most likely have outteched you by the time one of you gets Alphabet. By then, it might be more strategic to trade more with Saladin so you don't help Mansa get even further ahead. I would be in favor of attacking Mansa first if the geography allows it.

I don't have the appropriate patches, so I can't open the saved game. Therefore, the questions I would ask since Sis didn't address them in his post.

* Did he build any Work Boats in the capital yet? If not, he needs them ASAP so he has additional food in the capital and can whip out units.

* I would imagine Sis' next build would be another Worker so he can get the Copper online sooner, correct?

Assuming he has not built a Work Boat, that means the capital needs at least one (ideally two) so he can use the chop/whip strategy to get some units out from the capital.

If he builds on top of the Copper, and doesn't have any Work Boats from the capital yet, then he will still be delayed in getting units out. We want to improve those tiles so we can whip. Otherwise, the city won't grow quick enough for whipping to truly be effective.

If the Worker he currently has spends time hooking up the Copper, that's sooner that city 2 can build Axemen. Since it's likely to be a production city, we want it to concentrate on that, so getting the max hammers possible is ideal. Hence, the Copper should be available and mined while also working farmed Wheat (which gets a hammer as well) and then perhaps grow to size three and work one more hammer tile.

Getting the Cows in city 2's BFC would be nice, but we may want to keep that for Medina once that city is taken. So I wouldn't worry too much about getting the Cows (along with the fact Sally will likely get it in Medina's BFC first).

So... I vote for 1NE of the Copper, use the Workers to get it hooked up, then start farming the Wheat with one Worker while the other helps chop Work Boats/Barracks/units in the capital. City 2 should start the Barracks and time the build so the Copper is hooked up about the same turn that Barracks is completed. Then get those Axemen cranked out.

Thus the next tech would obviously be Agriculture, then AH so you know where Horses are (if doing an Axe rush, it's important to know if Sally has Horses... if he does, you need Spearmen to counter Chariots). Then head for IW and the UU can come later to supplement the Axes.

settling on the copper loses 3 hammers. not worth it.

Settling 1 NE loses 3 grassland tiles (including spices) and only gains a Flood Plains that's in Medina's BFC anyway.

Yes, the 3 extra hammers is nice, but settling directly on means you get extra hammers without having to tie up food to work them.

Did he build any Work Boats in the capital yet?
No. I was kind of surprised, since he researched Fishing. But I guess he hoped to see a resource or otherwise good city spot nearby and wanted to grab it before barbs made it harder to.

I would imagine Sis' next build would be another Worker so he can get the Copper online sooner, correct?
Personally I'd settle on the Copper and chop Worker, WB, WB.

If he builds on top of the Copper, and doesn't have any Work Boats from the capital yet, then he will still be delayed in getting units out.
Yeah, but less delayed.

I don't understand all this talk of settling on the copper. The notion that it allows axes to be built sooner doesn't make sense as vicawoo and ratrangerm have pointed out, because there are other build priorities for the cities in the short term. Bibracte needs 2 WBs, another worker (at least) and a barracks before starting on military. Vienne will need at least a barracks (preceded maybe by a monument?). The worker will only take 10 extra turns to hook up the copper vs. settling on it. So either way the copper will be hooked up and ready to go when either city will be ready to build its first axe.

Medium term there is a significant loss of :hammers:s in Vienne by settling on copper. Once CS makes irrigation chaining available the NE of copper site will be able to work the wheat, cows, 1 farmed FP and 2 farmed grassland for +11 :food:. That's enough to work 5 mined plains hills (1 with copper) and 1 mined grassland hill. That's 28 :hammers:s at pop 11. :D Settling on copper can't match that :hammers: output at that point in the game. The extra food may give the copper site a small advantage late in the game when all the workshop boosters are available, but by then there should be enough production available in other cities for this difference to be negligible. And if a monument isn't built the NE of copper site wins out in the early game too (although I can't see why you wouldn't build a monument if settling there :confused:).

I think the major decision that will impact the build sequences (especially how much whipping is used) is whether IW will be researched after Agr. If IW is chosen then I think you're going to want to work the silver mine full time to shorten IW research time. And grow the city enough to work the 2 clams for their commerce. That would suggest no whipping in Bibracte for a while (i.e. until pop 6 at least).

In support of going for IW I found something interesting in Sisiutil's "Early Rush Guide":

Are they [swordsmen] worth the delay? Possibly, especially if you’re facing a tough opponent such as a Protective leader. Another consideration is your research. If you’re fortunate enough to start near a high-commerce tile such as gold, gems, or silver, you may be able to accelerate research enough to finish researching Iron Working long before your opponent has anything better than Archers to field in response.

This seems to be exactly the situation in this game. And we're dealing not with regular swordsmen, but with a swordsman based UU that doesn't even require getting lucky with a source of iron. No-brainer? :mischief:

There's another good thing about having Mansa nearby. It might be too late for the GW or even not a good idea regardless but the espionage economy I've learned works rather well with Boudica. If Mansa rockets ahead, you could use espionage tech stealing to reel him back in...

Interesting suggestion on waiting for Gallic's cus of the silver start. It could be done, especially if Saladin definately has no way to access Cooper... and I definately support not settling on the Cooper...

This seems to be exactly the situation in this game. And we're dealing not with regular swordsmen, but with a swordsman based UU that doesn't even require getting lucky with a source of iron. No-brainer? :mischief:I like this idea - shock axe or two for stack protection and a whole lotta Gallics. The extra 1.1 str +10% inherent city raider bonus makes them far superior to axes against cities however you promote them and since there are plenty of other necessary builds right now (workers, WBs, monuments, barracks), it won't delay a war much to get IW researched first.

It's by no means essential, but taking Sal out early certainly seems like a good option here. If you're worried about a lack of trading partners later on, just reduce him to one city and leave him to fester. Cha makes motherland unhappiness less of an issue in the early game.

Barax makes sense for an aggressive leader, maybe shock axe and medic spear and the rest gallic warriors. It would be nice if S could get open borders before the invasion to check out cities and resources (maybe a scout between military builds); obviously this depends on Sally getting writing.

The notion that it allows axes to be built sooner doesn't make sense

No, it doesn't not make sense. Less time hooking up the copper means more time chopping. It really is faster. If you don't think that's worth it, that's fine.

It would only *maybe* not be faster if by settling with both wheat and copper in the first ring, you did an axe rush without building a monument there. But I wouldn't do that, since the monument gives you happy, cultural defense, forest hammers, and fogbusting.

Ah too bad i missed the first round, ah well...

Id settle on the copper, youll have it available instantly and get 3 other 3 resources in your BFC. Spam those axes, rush saladin, then get alphabet so you can get those sweet techs off mansa.

5 turns for 30 hammers (6 if you consider movement), that's 6 (5) hammers per turn to chop. Compare that to the 3 hammers per turn you lose to not building a mine.

Speed is of the essence. Sis already knows the hidden costs of waiting to rush.

Not waiting for the UU (i.e. starting to build your army way before researching IW) is appropriate for the ALC because it gives the right educational message: Not all UUs are worth focusing on.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned (apologies if I've just missed it) is that Saladin has ivory. If he gets to Construction and HBR then he'll have elephants on the production line, for which Sis has no counters until pikes. If Saladin and Mansa become close, that's going to happen sooner rather than later. I don't think waiting very long is an option.

Ok, instead of the turns building a mine you chop instead (and you get an extra worker turn). +30 hammers, and 1 worker turn. 10 turns later, the makes up for that. So are you going to rush him <15 turns after you settle?

My gut feeling says settle on the copper, build axes, tech IW, rush Sally with Gallics for reinforcement.

Validator: I understand and pretty much agree with your hammer analysis of the copper city.

The reason I think that ON the copper works better has to do with Medina and the eventual cites near the cow/ivory (to the east) and fish/spices (to the SW). By settling 1NE of the copper, that city ends up sharing 4 tiles with Medina, which looks like it is also sharing two with Saladin's capital. In my experience with Boudica, she really needs at least a couple heavilly cottaged commerce cities, and Medina will be exactly that.

Settling on the copper pretty much makes the Fish/Spice site worthless, but I don't see much of a problem with that. It also makes more efficent use of the land for the city I think should go 1E of the mountain by the cows. That city will probably pick up a strategic resource in the grassland hills to the east, making it another good production city that won't be generating a lot of commerce. Again, to me, it looks like just another reason why Boudica needs to capture the two Saladin cities ASAP and start making them commerce cities.

Medina NEEDS those two tiles that the Copper city would be sharing. One will be generating tons of commerce and the other will be providing much needed hammers to build the many commerce buildings that city will need.

Of course, I'm no genius when it comes to this game and could be way off in my analysis, but that doesn't stop me from sharing my opinion.

Medina doesn't have to be included in long-term plans. :devil:

Settling 1 NE loses 3 grassland tiles (including spices) and only gains a Flood Plains that's in Medina's BFC anyway.

Yes, the 3 extra hammers is nice, but settling directly on means you get extra hammers without having to tie up food to work them.


I hadn't noticed the Grasslands, except for the one with the Spice. In that case, I'd settle on the Copper right away...

I don't understand all this talk of settling on the copper. The notion that it allows axes to be built sooner doesn't make sense as vicawoo and ratrangerm have pointed out, because there are other build priorities for the cities in the short term. Bibracte needs 2 WBs, another worker (at least) and a barracks before starting on military. Vienne will need at least a barracks (preceded maybe by a monument?). The worker will only take 10 extra turns to hook up the copper vs. settling on it. So either way the copper will be hooked up and ready to go when either city will be ready to build its first axe.

Medium term there is a significant loss of :hammers:s in Vienne by settling on copper. Once CS makes irrigation chaining available the NE of copper site will be able to work the wheat, cows, 1 farmed FP and 2 farmed grassland for +11 :food:. That's enough to work 5 mined plains hills (1 with copper) and 1 mined grassland hill. That's 28 :hammers:s at pop 11. :D Settling on copper can't match that :hammers: output at that point in the game. The extra food may give the copper site a small advantage late in the game when all the workshop boosters are available, but by then there should be enough production available in other cities for this difference to be negligible. And if a monument isn't built the NE of copper site wins out in the early game too (although I can't see why you wouldn't build a monument if settling there :confused:).

I think the major decision that will impact the build sequences (especially how much whipping is used) is whether IW will be researched after Agr. If IW is chosen then I think you're going to want to work the silver mine full time to shorten IW research time. And grow the city enough to work the 2 clams for their commerce. That would suggest no whipping in Bibracte for a while (i.e. until pop 6 at least).




I'll have to disagree with you for a change. The potential of the on-Copper site to act as a hybrid production/commerce city by having the Spice and extra Grasslands will far outweigh the slight production advantage the 1NE-Copper site has in production after the nearby tiles are developed.

After Saladin's cities are taken, the priority will shift to economic recovery, and the extra commerce of the on-Copper city will give it the advantage over the 1NE-Copper site.

5 turns for 30 hammers (6 if you consider movement), that's 6 (5) hammers per turn to chop. Compare that to the 3 hammers per turn you lose to not building a mine. (and to anyone else insisting that settling on the copper is minus 3 hammers)

Settling on the copper turns a 0f6h tile (production value = 6) into a 2f3h one (production value = 5). So you're really only losing 1 production by doing it, not 3 (OK, you're losing 2 by the time late-game rolls around, when the tile would be 7h with a railroad, but who cares?).

Put another way, settling on the plains and working the copper nets you 2f7h.
Settling on the copper and working a plains mine nets you 2f6h.

Put another way, settling on the plains and working the copper nets you 2f7h.
Settling on the copper and working a plains mine nets you 2f6h.

It's even better than that.

The on-copper tile has 2F3H, and a plains hill mine has 4H.

...whereas the 1NE tile has 2F1H, and the copper mine has 6H.


So it will be 2F7H for both cases.


None of this considers, of course, the extra commerce potential of the grassland tiles to the SW...

I'll have to disagree with you for a change. The potential of the on-Copper site to act as a hybrid production/commerce city by having the Spice and extra Grasslands will far outweigh the slight production advantage the 1NE-Copper site has in production after the nearby tiles are developed.

After Saladin's cities are taken, the priority will shift to economic recovery, and the extra commerce of the on-Copper city will give it the advantage over the 1NE-Copper site.

The additional production of the site NE of the copper isn't "slight" in any way. In fact, I'd say that the additional commerce obtained from settling on the copper is only slightly beneficial while the production of Vienne 1NE of the copper is a huge boon as an aggressive/charismatic leader.

Medina and Mecca appear to be very nice commerce cities. If Sisiutil settles directly on top of the copper, he will lack a good production city after the war with Saladin. In fact, it is not as if settling 1NE of the copper is going to somehow "waste" x amount of commerce... the fish/spice city (judging by the dot map, so correct me if I am wrong) can support eight cottages.

Settle on the copper. We need those hammers now.

This is a really good discussion for this series! It's almost like a political debate:

"Senator Boudica, the Celtic people seem to have a lot of confidence in your foreign policy abilities (especially the Kill Saladin doctrine), but they are very concerned about your domestic policy. Would you please give us your views on how you, a person with characteristics that do nothing to help generate commerce, plan to provide jobs and education for the people?"

The additional production of the site NE of the copper isn't "slight" in any way. In fact, I'd say that the additional commerce obtained from settling on the copper is only slightly beneficial while the production of Vienne 1NE of the copper is a huge boon as an aggressive/charismatic leader.

Provided we're still emphasizing production rather than economy by the time Civil Service is researched, which is the only way you're going to work all those plains hills to the north, since Medina will want to be working cottaged floodplains.

The additional production of the site NE of the copper isn't "slight" in any way. In fact, I'd say that the additional commerce obtained from settling on the copper is only slightly beneficial while the production of Vienne 1NE of the copper is a huge boon as an aggressive/charismatic leader.

Medina and Mecca appear to be very nice commerce cities. If Sisiutil settles directly on top of the copper, he will lack a good production city after the war with Saladin. In fact, it is not as if settling 1NE of the copper is going to somehow "waste" x amount of commerce... the fish/spice city (judging by the dot map, so correct me if I am wrong) can support eight cottages.

Not true...there's a very good production city available 1NE of the Wheat.

Provided we're still emphasizing production rather than economy by the time Civil Service is researched, which is the only way you're going to work all those plains hills to the north, since Medina will want to be working cottaged floodplains.

As Boudica, wouldn't you typically focus on production for the majority of the game's length? :confused:

Not true...there's a very good production city available 1NE of the Wheat.

That is a good production city. Since settling on the copper makes the fish/spice city nearly useless, how would you alter the dot map?

This is a really good discussion for this series! It's almost like a political debate:

"Senator Boudica, the Celtic people seem to have a lot of confidence in your foreign policy abilities (especially the Kill Saladin doctrine), but they are very concerned about your domestic policy. Would you please give us your views on how you, a person with characteristics that do nothing to help generate commerce, plan to provide jobs and education for the people?"

I suppose this is a good point, but what does it prove about settling on the copper?

You don't need to answer your opponent's questions to win a political debate.

As Boudica, wouldn't you typically focus on production for the majority of the game's length? :confused:

No. Since she has no economic traits, you've got to get your economy the hard way. It's war that she makes easier.

The additional production of the site NE of the copper isn't "slight" in any way. In fact, I'd say that the additional commerce obtained from settling on the copper is only slightly beneficial while the production of Vienne 1NE of the copper is a huge boon as an aggressive/charismatic leader.

Even post-CS, co-opting the cow and working a farmed floodplain, there's not enough food to work all the hill tiles in the 1 NE city (+3 from wheat, +2 each from cow, floodplain, city center -> food for the copper, and 3 plains and 1 grassland hill, or 26 total hammers, at size 8). Other tiles beyond these are just plains farms -- there's no more food until bio!

EDIT: OK, missed the grasslands in the southwest -- so post CS it would be size 11, 30 hammers. Better than I was figuring, but the copper city gets a lot more potential workshops, so I don't think its production would compare all that unfavorably in the mid-game.

"settling on the copper makes the fish/spice city nearly useless"
The three tiles of overlap would between a city on the copper and a city with fish and spice in the inner ring would be a very minor deficiency in the middle or late game. But even if it was as bad as you said, the importance of that would be negligible now. Short term benefit is what's important now.

How does settling on the copper give more short term benefit than just settling on the plains hill between the wheat and the copper? You get earlier wheat hooked up and don't have to build a monument and +1 hammer...

But you don't have to hook up the copper for Axe/Gallics if you settle on it, and you still get the food later. >>

But I play way below this level, and rather casually, to. >>

You hook up the copper way before you want to start building axes / gallics anyways...

On top of the copper is where I'd settle. You can immediately start pumping out axeman, and you still have access to 2 food resources, and the calendar resource later.

I don't think either on copper or 1NE will have a huge impact. There will be very little time lost hooking up the copper since there are several other builds that must take precedence. I prefer NE but on top of copper is not going to make a huge difference really.

I don't like 1E of copper though as beyond the rush it seems really wasteful to not have the food from the cow for this food-poor production city.
Just pick a spot Sisiutil Í think we've debated this long enough. :)

You hook up the copper way before you want to start building axes / gallics anyways...

But that's turns your worker isn't chopping.

Another question: what are the merits of a city 1 NW of the wine? Looks like you'd get an awful lot of riverside tiles for steam power, and snag some deer to help work some waterwheels when the time comes.

Chopping won't speed up the rush compared to imporving the really good tiles.. heck it's even worth it to improve a plains hill to max out at size 3(13 production). By settling on the copper you are basically wasint a forest on building the monument anyways...

Chopping won't speed up the rush compared to imporving the really good tiles.. heck it's even worth it to improve a plains hill to max out at size 3(13 production). By settling on the copper you are basically wasint a forest on building the monument anyways...

In your capital?

You need to build a monument in the other city if you settle on the copper, you won't have to do that if you settle on the plains hill(or NE for that matter)... the cost of a monument is roughly a chop... Simple math says that you'll get more hammers from settling on the plains hill between the wheat and the copper than the other options in the timeframe that matter(for the rush).

How about this suggestion: Forgo an early rush.:lol:

Just joking of course.

Oh, and settle on the copper for speed. By the late-game, you'll be winning by so much, a couple of hammers won't make any difference.

Chopping around your capital instead of diverting worker turns to that city initially seems the best option. All you need is road if you settle on the copper.

I agree with oyzar on 1 E. The copper city will be at best a glorified unit pump and it will not use the cow for quite a while. seeing it on that terms , we should maximize prod at 2 pop......

I agree with oyzar on 1 E. The copper city will be at best a glorified unit pump and it will not use the cow for quite a while. seeing it on that terms , we should maximize prod at 2 pop......

Why would it not use the cow for quite a while? I would think it gets the cow as soon as Medina is captured (all improved and ready to be used). It wont use the cow before the rush sure.

Monument mean he get one less axe/gallic.. also not settling on the plains hill means ~1 less gallic / axe by the time he attacks... Seems like it is way better than the long term spot that gains the spot as saladins city gets the cow anyways...

Not true. The monument means +1 :) which is one extra whipped axe/GW. The monument also helps protect copperville from medina's 2nd border pop. Which means an extra turn of movement into Saladin's land.
And 1NE gives serious overlap with any potential cities to the East as well as with Medina. With more land available to settle 1NE is the best spot. But with the crappy terrain settling 1NE means having to settle more mediocre cities at a higher maintanance cost. The short term benefits of 1NE are negligable. I still like the idea of trying to plop a city 1W of the wine. This would be a nice medium strength production city with adequete food. the hammers invested in a settler would quickly be made up with axes produced there.
With regard to techs. I advocate agg followed by IW. By the time IW is finished the copper should be online. Saladin is protective so it is better to attack with GW than axes. The gap between getting the copper online and finishing IW can be spent building a few axes for stack/city defense as well as a couple spears in case we face chariots. DanF mentioned that CG2 archers will be rare. Ummmm, sal is protective so CG2 drill1 archers should be expected en masse. Axes are not the way to go. Unless you plan to lose 4-5 per city. Especially since sal gets cheap walls. Regardless of what promo line Sis decides on for the GWs an unpromoted GW is strength 7.2 when attacking a city. A CR1 axe is strength 6.75. That is before defender promos and bonuses. Axes will get mauled. GW's will sustain losses but not as many.
Also Sis can send a few GW's barb hunting for the extra exp for G3. It would be foolish to assume he will not be facing defending axes. A couple of nutcracker's with solid retreat odds an be a great help.

You will need some turns to build the barracks anyway, the worker can hook up the copper at that time. I suggest either settle E or NE of the copper.

Assume the border don't expand, you don't build a monument at this time, do you?

You get 6H(copper hill) + 4H(plain hill) + 1H(wheat plain) + 1H(city) = 12H for settling NE even the pop stay at size 3

You get 6H(copper hill) + 4H(plain hill) + 1H(wheat plain) + 2H(city) = 13H for settling E

You get 3H(city) + 1H(grassland forest) + 1H(grassland forest) +4H(plain hill) = 9H for settling on the copper.

even if you build a monument the cow is likely to be grabbed by Saladin until you conquere Medina, but at that time, it can be as well used by the citizens of Medina.

Why would it not use the cow for quite a while? I would think it gets the cow as soon as Medina is captured (all improved and ready to be used). It wont use the cow before the rush sure.
Mainly because you can't assure that you'll control the cow

Mainly because you can't assure that you'll control the cow

I don't understand, if it's within the BFC you can work it right? :confused:

It is as well in Medina BFC :p And do you want to fight a culture war in a city that at best will be a unit pump?

It is as well in Medina BFC :p And do you want to fight a culture war in a city that at best will be a unit pump?

I think you misread my post. I said after Medina is captured it can work the cow (the assumption being that Medina will be captured sooner than "in quite a while").

And you also misread mine.....

I'm clearly talking of the pre-war phase, that is clearly what matters. I that time it is quite unlikely that the copper city will grow in time to make a good use of the cow ( not mentioning the worker turns needed, that are less for the cow than for the wheat, due to distance ). And it is pretty likely that when you get the city good for using the cow that sal already had grabbed it......

And the after war, ultimately doesn't matter for this city. it will never be a good one.

It would be a far better city post war with the cow though which is why I would not settle 1E. It could have a pretty strong midgame production. 1E is better pre rush but I think the cost outweigh the benefits, but I see your argument.

Round 2: 2725 BC to 1675 BC (42 turns)

First off, I changed research, going after Agriculture in anticipation of farming that wheat tile fairly soon.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC25/ALC25_1675BC_01.jpg

Along the way, another religion got founded (this one from Monotheism, no doubt):

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC25/ALC25_1675BC_02.jpg

However, no religions on my continent thus far, at least not with the two neighbours I know about.

The discussion around where to place the copper city was very interesting but also a bit confusing. It was very hard to decide. I was about to flip a coin or something, but in the end I let the blue circle decide for me. ;)

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC25/ALC25_1675BC_03.jpg

Well, that and the novelty of it; I usually don't settle on top of a resource.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC25/ALC25_1675BC_04.jpg

Oyzar was lecturing me in a recent messaging session about food (that I should have researched fishing first), and he will probably lecture me again about not settling next to the wheat, but at the very least, I prioritized a monument to get the wheat within my borders.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC25/ALC25_1675BC_05.jpg

I finished researching Agriculture...

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC25/ALC25_1675BC_06.jpg

...and went after Pottery next. Mainly for the Granaries to support whipping; I hadn't placed any cottages by the end of the round, but those will have to come along soon too.

And I would have definitely lost the race to Stonehenge... but look at who the victor was!

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC25/ALC25_1675BC_07.jpg

Well, that was pretty much what we'd hoped, wasn't it? Oh, we just HAVE to rush him now. And as you'll see, Saladin wasn't done with wonders.

The techs were rolling by relatively quickly thanks to that silver mine boosting research.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC25/ALC25_1675BC_08.jpg

And Saladin built another wonder!

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC25/ALC25_1675BC_09.jpg

He must have had them built in different cities. He might have a source of stone too. He's just asking for an axerush, isn't he?

He also got to Writing ahead of me.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC25/ALC25_1675BC_10.jpg

I reminded myself that while I have silver to help me, he has gold. Not for long though...

Around this time I decided that I was ready to start whipping, so I changed civics.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC25/ALC25_1675BC_11.jpg

And promptly put my new civic to use:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC25/ALC25_1675BC_12.jpg

And on the last turn of the round, I enabled the UU:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC25/ALC25_1675BC_13.jpg

Turns out I have iron readily available:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC25/ALC25_1675BC_14.jpg

Not that I need it just yet, but it will be a very nice production boost for the capital.

Anyway, that was the round. Here's a look at the map:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC25/ALC25_1675BC_15.jpg

I managed to explore most of the south before my Scout was killed by a barb Archer. I was thinking of building another to explore Arabia and see if I can get further north.

As for techs, I've chosen Animal Husbandry next, but we should discuss if that's the best choice or not. I don't need it as a Worker tech for some time, so I was mainly thinking of revealing horses. (Mansa has some--he has an empty pasture on one of his tiles.) Maybe Masonry for Duns would be better? Or Writing?

I have 4 Axemen built now; at least two will have to stay put in my cities. With the Great Wall next door, I may be facing a higher amount of barb incursions (at least until I pry the GW from Saladin's cold, dead fingers). I was thinking that once the granaries are finished I'd focus on Gallic Warriors and see if I can't show off the UU. A few more turns to chop/whip the rest of the army, and then I hit Saladin. Make sense?

Between his wonders, good land, and early happy resources (gold and ivory!), Saladin has to die. So, I think that should be the focus of the next round. Agreed?

Agreed. Skip the -1 revealed Diplo with MM, he'll trade with your anyways. Sally needs to be taught for last time why you do not "girt your loins, gear up for war, and do.....nothing." :lol:

Both wonders were built in Mecca. More wonders, good...

But the cultural defenses in Mecca will be high and you won't have catapults or spys to help you. Bring lots of axes and GW and watch them die gloriously for honor of the scottish highlands.

A scout to warn you of what you are facing would be worth the cost.

Why did you whip an Axeman before the Granary?

Sisiutil sier:
Anyway, the ALC round is up, settled on the copper, go ahead and slap me around for it
Sisiutil sier:
You know you want to
Ricardo sier:
On the cooper......
Ricardo sier:
following the blue circle... are you a AI BTW?
Ricardo sier:
lol
Sisiutil sier:
Heh
Sisiutil sier:
I had decided to settle on the copper and the blue circle almost made me change my mind
oyzar sier:
why is bicarte working a grass tile instead of a forest plains hill or something?
Sisiutil sier:
Ah
Sisiutil sier:
So I can whip 2 pop on the next turn
oyzar sier:
pottery before IW?
Sisiutil sier:
Granaries for whipping
Sisiutil sier:
I already had Axes, I didn't see the need to rush to GWs
Ricardo sier:
because they are better than axes?
Sisiutil sier:
Axes will hold their own til GWs come along
Sisiutil sier:
As soon as Sally built the GW I became concerned about barb defense
Sisiutil sier:
That's what the Axes will be busy with at first, I think
Ricardo sier:
At least you already got the HE unit?
oyzar sier:
it is not about holding your own
oyzar sier:
you played too much Mp lately
oyzar sier:
it is not like sal will attack you
oyzar sier:
you are only delaying the rush giving him more time to stumble into hooking up iron...
Ricardo sier:
I agree
Sisiutil sier:
I don't think Sal will attack, I think the barbs will
Sisiutil sier:
I'll get to Sal soon enough
Ricardo sier:
barbs... bah
Ricardo sier:
you should know better than that
Ricardo sier:
barbs are XP
Sisiutil sier:
True, but they can also be a nuisance
oyzar sier:
one axe is enough against the barbs... and it not like teching IW before pottery will slow down you from taking out barbs...
Ricardo sier:
you haven't done the granaries or a cottage until now anyway
oyzar sier:
I have 4 Axemen built now; at least two will have to stay put in my cities. you didn't build any warriors before you got copper hooked up? if so why?
Ricardo sier:
why hurry for pottery?
oyzar sier:
btw obviously don't take anything of this as an attack or something we are just giving criticism
Ricardo sier:
sis has hard skin
Sisiutil sier:
Hmmm, well, like I said to Oyzar yesterday, this sort of stuff should also go in the thread

That is a good production city. Since settling on the copper makes the fish/spice city nearly useless, how would you alter the dot map?



Here are the cities I recommend Sisiutil to settle:


1) Directly on Copper Plains Hill (already settled)

This city not only grabs copper but also can act as a hybrid production/commerce city.


2) 1NE of eastern Wheat

This city has as food sources the eastern Wheat, the middle Deer, and the eastern Cow. In addition, it has some hills to provide good early-game production and lots of riverside plains and grasslands to provide excellent late-game production. It's also on a river, which means it can build a levee. It will make a great Ironworks city, for sure.


3) 2N of western Wheat

This site is the same as the current dotmap.


4) 1SW of Spice

This site is the same as the current dotmap.


5) Directly on Wine

This will be 3 tiles away from city 2), the super production city. It will have access to 2 Deer, and 1 Cow. Although it loses the 2 extra commerce from the Wine, it will have a good balance of production and commerce tiles, despite being on the edge of the tundra.

You don't need to answer your opponent's questions to win a political debate.

Ignorance is no argument! :p

No. Since she has no economic traits, you've got to get your economy the hard way. It's war that she makes easier.

All I'm saying is that, because Boudica is aggressive and charismatic, you emphasize production in order to leverage her traits. You're correct, she has no economic traits, so you use her militaristic traits to simply enlarge your empire. As an analogy, you don't have the best crop around, but you do have the most, and that is why you make more money than all of your farming friends!

Ignorance is no argument! :p
No, in American elections, it's apparently an asset.

I would get Sailing next, you have time and money for one more tech before you should switch the slider to 0% to pay for the army and Sailing could net you some foreign trade with MM at that point unless a barb city pops up on the coast between you. You wont have time to build libraries yet anyhow and AH will do you little good.

I think the axes should be out and about getting xps for that extra promotion before the attack, they are not doing anything worthwhile camping in the cities.
One unit should also be sent to scout out Saladin's land asap. I see he has iron within his borders but is it hooked up yet, we should get some intel on what units he is producing. We also need to know if Mecca is on a hill and the lay of the land further north.

EDIT: There's also increased numbers of barbarian galleys in 3.17 so getting one of these out yourself to protect the crabs can be good once the rush has been prepared.

I realise you literally wrote the book (er, pdf) on rushing, and I'm a Monarch player who'd get destroyed attempting Immortal, but I'm worried you're leaving this a bit late. I agree with whoever said to scout ASAP - Mecca will have good cultural defenses, and you definitely want to know if it's on a hill. Just taking Medina then being forced into peace would be very bad, what with cultural pressure and diplomatic demerits with Mansa.

Also - is that a Skirmisher/Settler pair on your border? I don't use Better AI... please tell me the AI doesn't know how to block now!

No, in American elections, it's apparently an asset.

Hey, ease up there Captain Canada, or we'll drop a bomb on you. :nuke:

Hey, ease up there Captain Canada, or we'll drop a bomb on you. :nuke:

As usual, wrong country.

As for the tech path, since you have Pottery and BW, why not tech MC for the forges? An alternative is AH, not for its direct use (although horses may be useful, but then Horseback Riding is required to utilize it), but it opens up Writing (build libraries to increase tech speed).

Edit: sorry, you don't need AH for Writing, since you already have Pottery.

I think I have to root for Saladin now.

1675 BC. I'm no expert for early rushes but it's getting a bit late, isn't it?

For a swords rush it's pretty ok, though chopping should be intense.

use the gallics... should be fun

And a note about the UB: the dun DOES NOT provide guerilla one to units who can not normally recieve it (such as axemen).

For a swords rush it's pretty ok
An axe rush would have been faster, hence better. With Copper you don't need Iron Working.

You're correct, she has no economic traits, so you use her militaristic traits to simply enlarge your empire. As an analogy, you don't have the best crop around, but you do have the most, and that is why you make more money than all of your farming friends!

That only works if the tiles around the city are already improved. The earlier you declare war, the less likely it is. Taking out Saladin will make the economy drop and recovery will be the next step before conquering somebody else -- overexpansion will kill unless you're planning the economy from the first.

An axe rush would have been faster, hence better. With Copper you don't need Iron Working.

I think it was worth it. Saladin is protective and almost always goes for religions/wonders so his capital is usually a pretty tough nut to crack. The delay in this case has not been extensive as it's very possible to perform successfull axerushes at this level by 900-1000 BC still and the start had good commerce with silver+crabs.
GWs will do much better than axes against cg2 archers and reinforcements can move at double speed compared to axes within Saladin's territory. I would still bring a proper SOD though, nothing less than a dozen swords all but 1-2 of the axes and a spear though we will know more once Mecca has been scouted.

I say Masonry next, then AH/writing.

Now that's out of the way.

BUILD MILITARY AND ATTACK.

I would also consider just steamrolling into Mansa after Sal too if you can, just make sure you have writing for libraries. Tech trading with Mansa or vassaling??? Come on, this is Boudica. Your economy is stable enough, the woman should simply take what she wants!

Masonry, what for? There will only be time and money for one more tech before the economy crashes if there's going to be a rush. We should make it count.

Masonry, what for? There will only be time and money for one more tech before the economy crashes if there's going to be a rush. We should make it count.

I am thinking for the UB for illustration purposes. The gold from capturing the cities will allow him enough time to tech AH and writing I am pretty sure.

That only works if the tiles around the city are already improved. The earlier you declare war, the less likely it is. Taking out Saladin will make the economy drop and recovery will be the next step before conquering somebody else -- overexpansion will kill unless you're planning the economy from the first.

This is leading nowhere. You're 100% correct, I'm just saying Boudica's focus is war, not the economy.

Found at least 1 more city, get at least 1 great scientist settled (not academy) for research, and make axes along the way while teching to catapults. Catapults will help soothe protective archers and skirmishers but we won't be focusing on Mansa of course.

1675 BC is too late to start preparing for a rush, so it's best to declare at around 500 BC once you have catapults and a larger economic basis to rebound from the war.

No, in American elections, it's apparently an asset.

Hay! We lyke our prezdents gud and dum, that way we kan connekt wit theyum

(On a side note, I'd like to say that ignorance is not, nor has in any way, ever been any semblance of bliss. It's an affliction which has been sweeping the nation, and needs to be dealt with immediately. That is all, you may now return to your regularly scheduled ALC.)

A few more turns to chop/whip the rest of the army, and then I hit Saladin. Make sense?

Define "few". As of now you only have a couple of axes available to attack Saladin. Your cities are building granaries. Bibracte has 11 turns of whip unhappiness left. Vienne doesn't have enough food to whip. Your two workers are busy chopping forests, not mining hills. :confused:

I don't see how you can have a rush force ready in under 20 turns. Will it be too late? :dunno:

One good thing is that Saladin only has two cities, and he's been spending all his :hammers:s on wonders. :lol:

OTOH Saladin does have a source of iron (although it's not hooked up yet) so he won't be defended by only archers for long.

Yeah the granaries are probably not the best idea here, it would be better to just chop out the army and use a 2 pop whip in the capital followed by a 1-pop whip in each city to finish up production. Since they're already halfway done though.. don't know.

I am thinking for the UB for illustration purposes. The gold from capturing the cities will allow him enough time to tech AH and writing I am pretty sure.

Unless he's also going to tech archery there's nothing the UB would benefit, GWs already get guerilla and axemen and spearmen can't get it. Axes+spears will defend better under just about any circumstance compared to a guerilla archer anyhow.
The duns could possibly be used later for some gunpowder unit shenanigans.

I am in favor of writing as the next tech. Once the economy crashes having scientists is muy bueno. Followed by med->priesthood and CoL. With Gold, Silver and Jumbos Monarchy can be dlayed a bit longer. especially with a Charasmatic leader with the Henge.
Once mecca is absorbed into the great Celtic empire and CoL is discovered, running a spy specialist in Mecca combined with the GW stands a good chance of generating a great spy. Infiltrating Mansa is better than trading with him. A. You will rarely have techs Mansa does not have. B. They are cheaper when ya steal them. C. When you infiltrate an AI they go into espionage panic mode and adjust the slider to try and compensate thus slowing him a little bit. Even with sal's lands, sis is not going to outtech MR Techwhoresupremo.
I list meditation as the path ratrher than Poly because I think rather than settling a GS or an academy. Bulbing Philo is the key. I am concerned that sis may run into the problem he had in the saladin game when the entire continent was religionless. This kept him from running any religious techs. If he can found the only religion on the continent it will autospread to every city. Thus a nice shrine without investing in missionaries.
RE: Chop/whip a settler. Before the granary to try and grab one more city site. Maybe 1S of the cows to block mansa from plopping a city there. A third city can really help with troopage. Then The Holy War between the athiests. I would focus on taking Medina, Mecca and any cities between Mecca and Celtia. Or cities with Jumbos. This seals off the western pennisula. I wouldn't try it with a msall stack. Think 10-12 GW's and one axe one spearman for defending any cities you take. That is a minimum. He is protective and will have cultural defenses due to Stonehenge. Taking saladin out completely will either crash the economy by keeping the cities. Or open up more land for Mansa to settle if they are razed. Taking a few prime city locations will give Sis a strong core empire with a few nice cities to the west. He will have a strong land advantage as well as population due to charasmatic plus resources. Saladin will be reduced to a small blob that is just holding spaces for Sis. After getting philo from a bulb. Math/construction/HBR unlocks cats and jumbos. At this point he should have a strong production base to pump out units. As well as a stable shrine boosted economy to support a war. Wipe saladin off the map, shortly followed by Mansa. No Vassals. Kill Kill and Kill.

There's 3 things that determine how long you can wait before taking on Saladin.

His hooking up the iron. Keep a unit near by to see when this starts to happen. Declare war before he completes this.

Saladin researching construction. GW's aren't good vs elephants so you have to attack before this. Might want to send a couple pillagers to ivory at the beginning of the war in case he researches it while war is in progress.

Saladin researching HBR. Same deal if he has horses.

So you should have time for duns and UU's and even another city near the deer and cows NE. I've never played at this difficulty level so you guys would have a better idea when to expect Salading researching HBR or construction. Maybe adjust espionage slider so you know, although Mansa might trade them to him.

You should be ok without catapults by making use of the hill movement. That gives him less time to whip archer defenders so you should be able to take a city with 2 to 1 unit advantage early on before you get promotions. Catapults would be better but you risk him getting construction too, and he has ivory.

Get in quick. The quicker Medina and Mecca are yours, the quicker you can focus on Mansa "I'd sell my first born for shiny new technology" Musa.

Saladin has iron. Since you don't have a large enough army, you'll have to get catapults. Saladin has the highest score, almost twice yours, so worst case is he has at least 3 more cities you can't see. At worst you could have taken medina earlier.

Elephants need HBR and construction. We hopefully won't have to worry about those for a while yet. Still, I wouldn't want to leave it much longer but I think Sis is still perfectly fine for Gallic rush.

Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin Kill Saladin


...did I mention Kill Saladin? :lol:

Saladin has iron. Since you don't have a large enough army, you'll have to get catapults. Saladin has the highest score, almost twice yours, so worst case is he has at least 3 more cities you can't see. At worst you could have taken medina earlier.
There are no other cities in Saladin's Trade Screen.

Something worrying:
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm105/DanF5771/SalPower.png

No time for a dirty dozen of GWs, better hurry up. I'd suggest killing the western Barb Archer with one of your Axes, then promoting the Axe to Woody2 and sending him plus a Guerrilla2 GW to Sal's Iron-->prevent mine/pillage mine. Fortified Axes behind protective Walls spoil all the UU-fun. Let him build his Pro Archers instead or even better Chariots (?).

Could be hbr.. you never know with the AI(not that it is particulary better that sal builds HA's...).

If it's HBR that's arguably even more of a worry....as it's only a hop, skip and a jump to Elephants. Especially with a tech-whore partner who's likely to be able to trade Mathematics.

I LOVE CivCorpse's plan of attack.

-- A shrine would be a spectacular addition to the Celtic war machine.
-- Stealing techs from MM is an outstanding idea for dealing with him. It both slows down his research AND nets you some lovely techs to use against him.
-- Killing MM with jumbos and cats is BY FAR the best way to REX when you are Boudica.

Sis has 4 axes. It is not enough to wage war, but it is certainly enough to disrupt the Arab iron supply. Sal will respond to this by building archers ( or chariots ). It is a bad call, but its definitely better than facing axes or swords in the middle of those pro archers.......

About techs: Writing is definitely the way to go now.

I like the disruption ideas being floated for Sal - especially with the iron. Still need to scout to see if he has more iron or copper somewhere, but this strat would REALLY work well if we can time it with some worker kidnaps.

I'd love to see a unit near the cows (the ones south of Medina currently in that city's possession) and then some near the iron - perhaps Sal will be working both when we decide to move in...

In my own opinion at this point of the game I'd be slightly delaying the whole thing for construction and catapults. I'm not entirely sure you'll be able to whip up a decent army fast enough but I'll definitely be watching how it goes with interest.

We know Sal has Masonry so expect walls, especially if he has stone which is a possibility since we got both the GW and Stonehenge. We also do not know if that is his only source or iron/copper. Protective archers behind walls with cultural defense will require a real army not a "rush". Sis needs a 3rd city to help with the whipping/rushing of these units. It is also unknown how much land sal has to the north to settle. And if it also contains metal. A half-arse rush without a proper army could and should lead to disaster. Focus all EPs towards Sal in order to be able to see his research. This will give Sis a better idea of when to strike.

Couple of minor micro-manage observations:

1) Vienne is able to whip the granary. Your citizen on the spice tile isn't providing too much to the cause. Whip the granary, then your worker can chop out a Gallic Warrior.

2) The road between your cities is a little sub-optimal, crossing a river twice. That'll delay your unit movement until you get bridge building. A better road would have gone to the tile north of Bibracte, avoiding river crossings. (And this road can still be built!)

We are kind of groping in the dark here without a unit scouting Saladin's lands. :sad:

The time for a second scout was at the outset, but you followed CivCorpse's advice. It's too late now.

The road is on the wrong side of the river. It'll take 3 turns before Engineering to get to the Vienne side of the river; it's as quick to walk.

Saladin's been building wonders. Why would that change? It's more likely that Sal will be going Pyramids in Mecca. He's not likely to have walls in Mecca with the wonders he's built.

Medina doesn't have a heck of a lot of production, its a GP farm - good for GP. workers and settlers. Not likely to have more than 2 archers. Sisiutil's 4 axes and 1 warrior can take that force. Boudica doesn't have the resources to compete with either Sal or Mans, certainly not without the hills mined. Time to gamble.

Walls cost nothing with stone and protective and immortal eh? He'll build them for sure but it won't cost him anything...

As I posted earlier I think the war would go much better with Cats. You will lose a lot less units so don't need as many. After the war you will have a lot of highly promoted troops (hopefully ;)). Then it would probably be time to trim Mansa down a bit before your troops go obsolete.

Techs writing is a priority especially if you go for construction as the capital could run some scientists to help with the tech rate. Then on to construction.

So after the on the copper/ off the copper discussion. We could have the Cats/Non Cat one. :lol:

Looking forward to the next round. Please don't leave us waiting to long. :)

Re wait for cats. If Sal keeps building wonders its a good plan. If Sal decides to expand while researching construction and HBR it may not be such a good plan.
What about a two phase (or one protracted) war. Grab Medina, pillage and occupy iron then wait for cats to take Mecca with or without a peace treaty in the middle.

Restart. The rush is too botched.

Please explain specifically how you think it's botched.

Please explain specifically how you think it's botched.

Isn't it obvious? The sky is falling!

Of course Sal will research construction, right after alphabet to make spies to exploit his coming great spy, because he's got elephants. Perhaps he's got Greek Phalanxes of Alexander to his north?

Why build walls until you need them, when you can generate a gazillion in gold from the protetcive trait?

Rush, what rush? An early rush ought to have happened by 1675 BC.

Re: waiting: Waiting was what hurt him in the last game.

Re: waiting: Waiting was what hurt him in the last game.

Which no doubt explains why he scored 85000 more points than in the Lincoln game where he didn't wait. :)

You may want to consider using GII Archers/Longbows to quickly defend captured hilled cities since their GII will allow to the travel those those cities quickly. Just anotehr idea to leverage the UB.

No need to build a scout. Just wander one of those axes up into Arabia while you build GWs

You may want to consider using GII Archers/Longbows to quickly defend captured hilled cities since their GII will allow to the travel those those cities quickly. Just anotehr idea to leverage the UB.

Medina is not on a hill, but that might be a good idea if Mecca or any other cities are.

In another game I just played with Boudica I used the following strategy. Constant warring will give you a couple of GG. Merge 3 of them in one city combined with HE. I was able to build 1 turn macemen who came out of the gate with CI/GI/CRIII. Teched to rifles and kept building macemen as long as I could. Then upgrade the macemen to rifles and the army is unstoppable. This was at monarch however, normal speed.

Medina is not on a hill, but that might be a good idea if Mecca or any other cities are.A G2 Gallic is superior to a G2 archer against almost anything Sal can throw at you.

I also think waiting for cats is a mistake. Why not try to leverage traits/UU with some G3 Gallics instead of disposapults? They're cheaper and only need 1XP for the necessary promos if you build a rax first.

This is starting to sound like the old Civ 2 council meeting...

...and I'm starting to understand and sympathize with the Military Advisor (the faux-Schwarzkopf guy)...

The cheapest and therefore best way to expand in this game would have been to Axe Rush Saladin straight away. All this talk about waiting until Arabia gets Axemen, Elephants and Catapults is making me sick. Anyone can see Arabian lands are much better than Sisiutil's. They need to become Celtic now. This instant.

Otherwise, we'll end up as in the Saladin game where Louis could have been wrecked by an early DoW. But wasn't, and easily teched away to result in a humiliating defeat.

Don't you see? Our land is not competitive; and every turn we wait makes it more difficult to take the good land from someone's cold, dead hands.

*takes cigar out of mouth, stares at you intently*

Which no doubt explains why he scored 85000 more points than in the Lincoln game where he didn't wait. :)
You are confusing bad early play for good late play. And this game series isn't about maximizing score.

And anyway, what makes you believe that score wouldn't have been even higher if he had taken on Saladin earlier?

Lol @ the comment on the military advisor in civ 2. I have barely played that, but I've seen those on youtube... funny...

Usually I'd side with the science advisor if this was civ IV :P

I too am thinking back to the Saladin game, where Sis DID wait and ended up facing Louis using Swords/cats vs. Crossbows and this was on Emperor... it would be ironic if Saladin put an end to Boudica in this game in the same way Louis put an end to Saladin...

If we don't hit Sally before he starts generating GPs, he could very easily run away with the game, especially with what I assume is a great production capital on top of Medina, super-science-city.

This is starting to sound like the old Civ 2 council meeting...

"Give me more soldiers, noble leader(Sis) so they may sheath their swords in the beating hearts of our enemies!!"

Seriously though, gallic warriors protected by a few axes and spears will dominate Sally as long as you get them quick enough. So chop/whip your army and get moving. Waiting for cats is a bad idea with Sal having 'phants at his disposal. Just my two cents.

I also think that there is still time for a rush although the losses will likely be very high for attacking Mecca so we need a proper SOD to push through. Arabian lands should have been scouted by now but we might have to go without a full intel. As long as a unit can get to Mecca asap we have the most crucial information.

Go with the good old overkill. If you got 2:1 axeman/gallic warriors against his archers, even his cultural defenses won´t help.

Waiting for Cats? A very bad idea, as the AI is very weak towards a rush only before 1000 BC.

You are confusing bad early play for good late play. And this game series isn't about maximizing score.

And anyway, what makes you believe that score wouldn't have been even higher if he had taken on Saladin earlier?

If he wasn't ready to take on Saladin earlier, the score would most certainly have been lower should he have tried.

I'm not confusing bad early play with good late play; I'm considering overall play as opposed to those who think that all wars must be fought before gunpowder.

"Rushing" is not the only way to win a war. I am not advocating waiting for cats. I think that would be a mistake. But axe rushing is more of an exploit than good strategy. Just as "choking" and the protective wall whip for gold.

How is Axe Rushing an exploit? A gamble, yes, but an exploit? Nah. You have to tech BW, hook up Copper, and then get the Axes out and warring as fast as you can. Too slow? You got a bunch of axes without anything to do but look tough. Protective/Creative neighbor? You need more Axes, slowing it down. Neighbor too far away? You got fogbusters, not much else. Isolated? See far away. Out-teched? Why are you trying to Axe Rush in the first place?:crazyeye:

I call it a gambit, though it's a better one then most.

How is Axe Rushing an exploit? A gamble, yes, but an exploit? Nah. You have to tech BW, hook up Copper, and then get the Axes out and warring as fast as you can. Too slow? You got a bunch of axes without anything to do but look tough. Protective/Creative neighbor? You need more Axes, slowing it down. Neighbor too far away? You got fogbusters, not much else. Isolated? See far away. Out-teched? Why are you trying to Axe Rush in the first place?:crazyeye:

I call it a gambit, though it's a better one then most.

But it heavily relys on the Ai's not being coded to prepare for a war that early. That makes it an exploit.

I hear axe rushing is hard on deity.

Well, having just failed an Egyptian war chariot rush on prince (! - 7 war chariots vs 3 archers in 1900BC!) I'd like to see one here :cool:

But it heavily relys on the Ai's not being coded to prepare for a war that early. That makes it an exploit.I believe this is because if they were, the player would always get a crucial tech lead on the AI.

Better to risk 50/50 losing a war than for the AI to doom itself in every game.

Also, this is only Sis's, what, third play on Immortal. He can afford to be more sportsmanlike in later games when he's an expert on Immortal play.

He's got a terrible opening position, but he has copper and the best lands are in enemy hands.

I believe this is because if they were, the player would always get a crucial tech lead on the AI.

Better to risk 50/50 losing a war than for the AI to doom itself in every game.

Also, this is only Sis's, what, third play on Immortal. He can afford to be more sportsmanlike in later games when he's an expert on Immortal play.

He's got a terrible opening position, but he has copper and the best lands are in enemy hands.

The fact that it is his 3rd game on immortal (online atleast) is more of a reason to avoid a risky gambit like axe-rushing a protective leader. If it were to fail then he would probably be in an even worse position. It would appear that an early rush with axes is past consideration. Getting a thrid city settled to block Mansa's expansion East is the play. This third city can also contribute troops. I think build/whipping a settler in bth current cities can seal off Mansa and Saladin from further expansion. Then 4 cities producing GWs with a couple supporting axes and spears will quickly build an army that can roll over Saladin. Sis is going to have superior troops as well as higher production. With the Eastern penninsula developed as well as Saladins former lands Sis will be able to field an army mansa won't be able to stop.

He has to kill Saladin and rather sooner than later, the land he's got to work with is so bad that there is little other choice.

He has to kill Saladin and rather sooner than later, the land he's got to work with is so bad that there is little other choice.

Depending on how much land sal has to the north, as someone pointed out earlier taking Medina and keeping a few troops on the pilliaged iron should be enough to stop Sal from mounting a counter attack until a suffiecient force of GW's can be built/whipped to take mecca and any other cities. The land on the eastern peninsula isn't all that horrible. Decent food and nice production. Just dandy for building a mob o troops to take down Mansa.