Friends,

This is the new PBEM game setting. We are playing on GEM v5.3.

(1) Borgg: Germany, Hungary, Italy - 3 civ
(2) Fandazma: Japan, Manchuria, Thailand - 3 civ
(3) Ace of Spades: Turkey, Egypt, Arabia, Iraq, Iran - 5 civ
(4) Dazz_G: Russia, Mongolia, Communist China - 3 civ
(5) MarkyParky: Nationalist China, France, Netherlands, Greece - 4 civ
(6) Geronimo: Norway, Sweden, Finland, Spain, Portugal - 5 civ
(7) Genghis_Kai: Britain, Nepal, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand - 4 civ
(8) Bastian-Bux: Canada, America, Mexico - 3 civ
(9) Adhesive86: Colombia, Peru, Brazil, Argentina, Chile - 5 civ

Game setting:
Basically default GEM v5.3 setting except with only Time/Conquest/Domination victory. The time limit is shortened to 20 years (i.e. 240 turns)

Rules:
This is a Free for all game. Any forms of diplomacy is allowed, that includes in game trading with AIs, off game emails between human players.

There is a special arrangement about city gifting. There will be a xls file provided that groups all the cities in the scenario into 'regions'. Any player is not allowed to gift away the cities within the regions of its current and any previous capital.

House keeping:
We do not have any time limit for each player to have their turn. But please remember there are 9 people in this game simply each person takes 1 day to pass their turn would mean a turn around time of 9 days. As an indication, you are strongly encouraged to pass your turn within 12 hours after you received the game file. Or put it simply, just play your turn as soon as you received it.

When you have finished your turn and sent it to the next person, please come to this thread to drop a post to indicate that your turn is completed.

In the case you are going to holidays or will be absent from playing your turn for a period longer than 1 day, please kindly inform everyone through email. In the case you are away for more than 1 week, it would be best if you could nominate a person to help you take your turn while you are away (a person inside or outside the game.)

We wish to play this game TO THE END. That means, even though if you have got beaten badly, gang bashed by all 8 players, you should still play until your last city is gone. Welcome to the crude World War 2 :D

Below is the initial team statistics:

GNP (in descending order):

American team - 5810
British team - 4649
French team - 4186
German team - 3490
Russian team - 2814
Japanese team - 2695
South American team - 2303
Scan-Iberian team - 2195
Middle east team - 1608


Production (in descending order):

American team - 1708
British team - 1679
French team - 1399
Russian team - 1369
German team - 1245
South American team - 801
Japanese team - 754
Scan-Iberian team - 594
Middle east team - 470


Food (in descending order):

British team - 1990
French team - 1578
American team - 1559
Russian team - 1184
Japanese team - 1013
German team - 646
South American team - 617
Scan-Iberian team - 570
Middle east team - 477


Soldiers (in descending order):

French team - 6539
German team - 6455
British team - 5386
Russian team - 4535
Japanese team - 4266
American team - 3948
Scan-Iberian team - 2623
South American team - 2208
Middle east team - 1628


Land (in descending order):

Russian team - 1277
American team - 1000
British team - 985
French team - 922
South American team - 481
Middle east team - 377
Japanese team - 301
Scan-Iberian team - 293
German team - 246


Population (in descending order):

British team - 3504
Japanese team - 3220
American team - 3215
German team - 2672
Russian team - 2498
French team - 2444
South American team - 1195
Scan-Iberian team - 817
Middle east team - 656

Reserved for some game statistic 2

I'm still ponder whether i should try germany this time. I'm not very happy to face Kai again as german player

I totally wouldn't mind that. But then my first preference is French/China team, i.e. you will still be facing me :) But may be this is the chance for you to revenge too.

No opposition from me. Seeing Kai bringing the french and chinese from the brink of destruction to glory sounds neat.

Though this leaves us with a vacant british position.

I hope i can get a close look on the beta tonight...but cant promise. My time schedule is very limited nowadays. So far i cannot see the heavy decreased situation for the germans. I just can judge annotations to the new version so far.

A heavy drawback is the missing of canada for GB. I'm not sure if SA and Egypt can compensate the fighter production. But india can produce now fighters. Very confusing all this ;-).

Further i think this szenario (no offence vs Kai) cannot provide the real oil problems for the axis. Acutally the support of oil for existing machinery in front was a painful problem (especially in africa for rommel). Once the tanks are in africa they roll and roll and roll..... No more oil needed. This is very big advance for Axis in this szenario. And a cant see how to adopt this into this game engine.

Well, the game has many things that are unrealistic. This is just one. I guess we need to live with it this time.

Sure, i just wanted to justify my choice of germany instead of GB. I hope i've better chances with them. But we all dont know what's comming out. Am i as good advance with german troops as you did? Will you prsence in French troops harden my advance in europe? We all don't know. :-)

So still an island monkey needed, as some not very friendly people over here would say. ^^

So Borgg is team 1 and Kai is team 5... and it seems we're shunning the Brits.

Being an 'island monkey' myself, I'd be plenty happy to step into the breach. ;)

I've already said i'll be Latin America and I guess LAtin America will be harder to fill so I'm happy to take either.

If no-one steps up for UK before kick off then do me a swap. I'm not fussy. I just want to get playing.

If there is no 8th player, I think we can probably live without a South American team. Although the US team then seems a bit too advantaged.

May be we can wait till the end of this week. In the meantime, can we do a bit more promotion. Borgg and Bastian, can you see if any more German players are interested?

Already posted at the german board this morning.

Actually I don't necessarily see the lack of a south american player as an advantage to the USA. Why? Because lacking that player means I HAVE to somehow controll south america, most probably by conquering it. If a south american player would be avaible, I could work something out with him, and lets face it: a human player will manage south america significantly better then the AI will. Sure a player is more prone to backstabbing, but an AI is guaranteed to be stupid, where a player does only have a limited chance to be so. ;)

So a player for south america, while forcing the USA to expand elsewhere, is keeping the USA from the necessity to expand southwards (except for the carribean).

I am afraid your logic is not convincing about AI south America :)

If your logic is true, same can apply to having AI France for Germany or AI China for Japan. This is a FFA game which means France doesn't has to be an enemy of Germany if it is play by human. The reason why human Germany would most likely invading France is because it is the obvious place for it to expand into. By having a human France would certainly slowdown that expansion rate.

South America IS THE obvious place for the US to expand into. A human player as south America, no matter it is a friend or enemy of USA, will ensure USA not be able to expand into there easily.

Of course it will. So my logic just makes sense for someone like me who sees waring with another player only as the ultima ratio. ^^

Hello, I am interested at joining the last remaining position. Is the offer stil valid?

Hello, I am interested at joining the last remaining position. Is the offer stil valid?

Yes we do. Which team are you most interested to play? You can choose from the Britain, the S. America or the France team.

I hope i can get a close look on the beta tonight...but cant promise. My time schedule is very limited nowadays. So far i cannot see the heavy decreased situation for the germans. I just can judge annotations to the new version so far.

A heavy drawback is the missing of canada for GB. I'm not sure if SA and Egypt can compensate the fighter production. But india can produce now fighters. Very confusing all this ;-).


Borgg, some more info about your previous post. Comparing v5.3 and v5.2.1, the last release, I think Germany is actually much stronger than it was. The initial setting is not as good as it was, meaning you won't be able to capture Paris in your first turn, but the production rate is about 1.5 times strong and science rate is almost twice as strong as it was! Therefore, in the long run, France without external aid is doomed to fall into Germany's hand.

About Britain, S Africa is actually quite productive. Combining SA and NZ could probably make up the lost of Canada. Moreover, What Canada can help in the European war is really just the gifting of fighters and that could still be done in the hands of American team (assuming that the Americans are willing to help ;)).

I would prefere France team.

Oh OK. Thats fine. Please PM me your email address.

Borgg, do you still want to be Germany or Britain? I am happy to be either Germany or Britain, but not really want to be S. America :)

Dobrý den MarkyParky, and welcome on board. ^^

I take germany. Let's see what i make out of it... [pimp]

Oh, that would be fun! :)

Ok, I've just updated the list on the first post. I think we are all set and ready (except waiting for MarkyParky's email address.)

Would everyone please download and install the latest version of GEM. Borgg, I think you can kick off the game! Please remember to check the following setting when starting the game:

1) Open the scenario in a text editor and change the max turn = 240.
2) Delete these victory conditions: cultural, space race and diplomatic
3) In game setting, set 'lock custom assets'
4) DO NOT put any admin password.
5) Leave the rest of the settings as is

OK, so my first diplomatic notes are out, I hope we can get some trades done prior to the game start. ^^

Okies. I will kickoff this game.

To everyone here: I will probably write a story in the german story board about this game from my view. Please be so fair and do NOT spy into this thread, because i will reveal maybe my plans there. Maybe i will do some delay in the documentation there, so i will only write about past turns. But to explain some moves it'll be neccessary to plot future missions.

Even if I want to spy on it, I will need some kind of decoder to understand the 'encrypted code' :lol:

Ouch, this is a hard test of my curiosity. Don't you think you can make it readable to participators of this game as well?

If you think you will not be able to resist say now. Than I will not write this story, or at least will put a bigger delay in it.

Well, to make it "readable" to all participants i must change 2 things of my original plans:

1) i must write in english, which is maybe just a little problem to me, but a greater problem to the place where i want to write it. i'm not sure about acceptance on the german board of an english story. Futher my german is way better than my english and so i will be able to write the story in a more brilliant style. Trying this in english would be rather rediculous than readable...

2) make it readable to all also means i may only write information everyone else has anyways. Everyone i getting a message which city has been conquered or lost somewhere over the world. So i see no need to write this. It's just like an eventlog in a better shape with snapshots than.

So i repeat my call: please say if you think you cannt resist. However, I will have to change my plans than.

Even if I want to spy on it, I will need some kind of decoder to understand the 'encrypted code' :lol:

I was planning to show tactical maps, statistics and also maps with plotted routes for troops. You will not neccessarily need to understand the written content to catch the most important information. The experience on my own is, that people prefere good plots instead of long explanated texts. Or in short: A good image says more than thousand words.

I think I can resist. Still after reading the german boards thread about their game, I'd be very curious to read something alike about our. ^^

Shame I've missed out again, but thanks for the PM Khan. I'm currently playing a game on GEM and loving it as the Americans. The way the game plays, though slow, is more than worth it due to its realism. Kudos again, and I look forward to following this thread.

Hi guys, I've posted some interesting statistics in the second post of this thread. You might find them useful.

Hi all,

the question of trade (especially units and such) came up. This might sound like a minor formality, but lets remember that we two american players are a bit "far far away". So given the (hopefully understandable) intention of both me and afaik also South America to get rid of european colonies in the americas, the question of neutral trading grounds has arised.

This area should in the best case be situated in a way that airlifting units to and from there would be easy for a majority of the players. Given our global distribution, ... and military ... ehm "activities" we will not find one area that can serve all trade partners equally.

BUT: I think that several pacific islands, to be more specific, either the american pacific islands, or the Philippines are perfectly located for such deals. What do you think, which of those islands are most perfect for a central trading hub? And is it possible to agree upon a way to make trade in and around this zone possible?

Of course I do know just to well that all powers with forces in that area will have a keen eye on who is buying what when. BUT: having such a central hub, and accepting that ships/troops inside this waters are to be traded and thus are not free to military action, would help tremendously. Given the necessity that might show up, that we might have to deliver ships/troops to cstates that do not share a direct border with any such hub, we would have to work out a "neutrality" for the used transports as well. But as we the USA tend to stay neutral as long as our nations interessts aren't endangered, maybe we could work something out about ships sailing under the american (or mexican?) flag.

What do you all think?

Even while some of you are at war, there is no reason to completely stop trade.

An even more drastic way to do this would be the following:

Mexico ceases to exist, is completely integrated into the USA.

INSTEAD, the US teams 3rd civ is situated in the Philippines 4 cities. Special rules for this civ: it has at all times to have open borders with everyone. It can NOT be part of any defensive treaty. But also it can never declare war, nor be declared war upon.

That would be very ahistorical, but also very helpfull for all trade. ^^

An even more drastic way to do this would be the following:

Mexico ceases to exist, is completely integrated into the USA.

INSTEAD, the US teams 3rd civ is situated in the Philippines 4 cities. Special rules for this civ: it has at all times to have open borders with everyone. It can NOT be part of any defensive treaty. But also it can never declare war, nor be declared war upon.

That would be very ahistorical, but also very helpfull for all trade. ^^

This is already against the rule of city gifting already. For a fair game, you can suggest what ever idea you want to, but I see no reason why you should be exempted from the rule we all agreed already.

Wow, i'm impressed by the figures you rised in 2nd Post. Was it really that numbers, that france has even military than germany (ok it's disturbed by the number other secondary civs both have inside)? generally it seems that germany does not considerably outnumber france. (of course not involving the promotion advance the german units have)

Wow, i'm impressed by the figures you rised in 2nd Post. Was it really that numbers, that france has even military than germany (ok it's disturbed by the number other secondary civs both have inside), but generally it seems that germany does not considerably outnumber france. (of course not involving the promotion advance the german units have)

Yes. The numbers are interesting, that's why I posted them :)

Promotion is a really important aspect that the game doesn't measure. So don't be too surprised that the French/Netherland/Greece/Chinese team has a combined force larger than the Germany/Italy/Hungary team, just in numbers.

In regard to trading: If you want to trade units, you have to move them into someones territory. Naturally, they can be intercepted on the way if this is done via ship, but that makes perfect sense... you have to protect transports to make sure they arrive. That's just one of the challenges overseas trade of military equipment faces. I don't see how this should be a problem.

In regards to city gifting, btw, the Region file is attached with V5.3 release. It is under the statistic folder. Please don't forget to check the region file when trading cities.

Guys,
Seeing there is another person willing to join the PBEM. I am wondering how willing are to accept an 9th player?

The 9th player control all of scandavian (Norway, Sweden and Finland) and the Iberian (Spain and Portugal).

Then Nepal is given to the Middle east team to control.

That would leave no AI players in the game!

Of course, this would mean a bit of rearranging of the order. But I think this is worthwhile.

What do you think?

Could we not give Nepal to another team then, like the UK team? Middle east already has five civilizations, which is quite a nuisance since you have to restart the game five times for every turn taken. I would very much appreciate not to have an additional nation to control.

I definitely don't mind taking Nepal as it is more natural that way. However, I suggest to give it to you because I didn't want to give an impressive to suggest things in favour of myself.

I do welcome the idea of no AI in the game, so I agree. Historicaly, Nepal was pro-british in times of WW2, so I agree with Nepal in UK team.

Hallo to all new players.

i will have nothing against a 9th player, welcome!

Same here, if that player is ready to live with the "crumbs".

Same with me. I would not even mind, if the map is changed that way, that these nepal cities come under direct control of another nation. (china or gb), to avoid problems of relaoding the game.

All this has a nice effect... it's giving me more time to get familar with german situation.

Strange will be the combination of switzerland, sweden and norway in one team. So i will not be able to concuqer norway without beeing at war with sweden or switzerland. But i see no other solution... so be it. This nations can be a interesting part, or will have a very short lifetime. Alli spossible :lol:

What about the balcan? This remains under minor civs control?

OK, that's very good. I think that's everyone agreed to change it to 9 players. I would keep Napel as it is to be fair, and if no body disagree, I with put it under the British Commonwealth :) There will still be minor nations and Barbarians on the map, but not a lot.

I am working on the change and I will send it to borgg for him to kickoff the game again. In the mean time, I am still waiting for the 9th guy to reply.

borgg, for the situation you mentioned, I think it is still open for you to negotiate with the new team. If I am the 9th team, I would certainly know that Copenhagen must gone to your hands. Then I would want to negotiate a peace term with you.

Hey Genghis Kai,

Can I join this game???

I am from Brazil, so I do love to play in South America Team. But I never playd PBEM... Can you give me some directions?

:king:

Oh,m And I am doing a Giant Eath Pitboss game. But the Forum is in portuguese. If you still want to play, just say, and I put the link here

Sorry about my English... =/

Genghis Khan, I received your PM and the option to join as the "Crumbs", lol, is very enticing and I'd be more than happy to take on that role.

Sorry about my English... =/
sorry my friend. The game is full.

Kai,

I have not found the XLS file with regions for city trading neither on forum nor in email. Have I missed something?

Kai,

I have not found the XLS file with regions for city trading neither on forum nor in email. Have I missed something?

Is within the GEM mod you downloaded.
"Giant Earth Map\Statistics\Regions.xls"

Just updated the team statistics in post #2.

What is the actuall release? 2.1 ?? is it included in the 5.3 download an the GEM page or use we a extra mod?

sorry for all the diplomatic stuff i have lost connection to the technical part :)

What is the actuall release? 2.1 ?? is it included in the 5.3 download an the GEM page or use we a extra mod?

sorry for all the diplomatic stuff i have lost connection to the technical part :)

No. You don't need to worry about version of the scenario. As soon as Borgg started the game on the modified version of 1940AD v2.0 scenario (i.e. v2.1 I named), what we sending around is just a save game. All you need is plain GEM v5.3 to load the save.

Very good :goodjob:

I will start, once diplomatic prerun is done. Sorry, but under this conditions it is a must. :crazyeye:.

I will be away on a conference until friday evening (~20:00 GMT). I will be able to read and reply to e-mail, but since my laptop is not fast enough to handle GEM, I will not be able to take any turns.

Best Regards,
Martin / Ace

Hey Genghis,

how can this game be full, if there are 36 civilizations in game? Sorry, I dont understand how. By the way, thanks anyway. In next game, put me on it. I love your map. =]

Hey Genghis,

how can this game be full, if there are 36 civilizations in game? Sorry, I dont understand how. By the way, thanks anyway. In next game, put me on it. I love your map. =]

Friends,

This is the new PBEM game setting. We are playing on GEM v5.3.

(1) Borgg: Germany, Hungary, Italy - 3 civ
(2) Fandazma: Japan, Manchuria, Thailand - 3 civ
(3) Ace of Spades: Turkey, Egypt, Arabia, Iraq, Iran - 5 civ
(4) Dazz_G: Russia, Mongolia, Communist China - 3 civ
(5) MarkyParky: Nationalist China, France, Netherlands, Greece - 4 civ
(6) Moverred: Norway, Sweden, Finland, Spain, Portugal - 5 civ
(7) Genghis_Kai: Britain, Nepal, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand - 4 civ
(8) Bastian-Bux: Canada, America, Mexico - 3 civ
(9) Adhesive86: Colombia, Peru, Brazil, Argentina, Chile - 5 civ

I think, this will answer your question :D

Regarding the xls region file,

Firstly I would like to say that I respect where Kai is coming from in that he has taken on board alot of work, which no one else is doing and there's no question of any accusations of deliberate unfairness. I also respect that Kai's proposed solution is a good effort to try and limit anyone taking too much advantage of a contrived diplomatic/ team situation.

However, this region file does seem to severley limit all civs apart from the European colonial powers who are more or less free to trade all their cities.

What, for instance, is to stop Holland trading all Indonesian cities to France on the first turn, before (if) Amsterdam falls?

Meanwhile, I for instance control 5 relatively minor civs and cannot swap any cities. Notable problems with this, especially since there is no team researching, is that France in this situation has the ability to take advantage of the rules to research quicker with one civ, where I do not.

I therefore propose a solution, whereby if we are not to scrap the region file (I can see good logic and principal for its existance, but in practice it is unfair), that we ban ANY trade of starting cities WITHIN teams. e.g. Canada to U.S.A, Netherlands to France.

This will keep the region file for its intended purpose and reduce the scope for certain teams to take advantage.

Downside: it still allows the major colonial power to gift almost unhindered, in Africa frex, while limiting all others.

Wait a moment ... borgg, Fanda ... you are playing in the german pbem, and iirc there city trading is completely free right? Does it cause any problems?

It's not free there. The rule there was: cities may be traded, if the traded city is (after the trade) closer to its new capital that it was to the old one.

E.g. all british cities could be handed over to Indian civ, since Indian capital was closer to them than. This can be simply solved by counting tildes.

Rebuilding the capital we never discussed.

Oh, your idea is wonderfull =]

I will try this tip of game with my friends. Good game to you all =]

Regarding the xls region file,

Firstly I would like to say that I respect where Kai is coming from in that he has taken on board alot of work, which no one else is doing and there's no question of any accusations of deliberate unfairness. I also respect that Kai's proposed solution is a good effort to try and limit anyone taking too much advantage of a contrived diplomatic/ team situation.

However, this region file does seem to severley limit all civs apart from the European colonial powers who are more or less free to trade all their cities.

What, for instance, is to stop Holland trading all Indonesian cities to France on the first turn, before (if) Amsterdam falls?

Meanwhile, I for instance control 5 relatively minor civs and cannot swap any cities. Notable problems with this, especially since there is no team researching, is that France in this situation has the ability to take advantage of the rules to research quicker with one civ, where I do not.

I therefore propose a solution, whereby if we are not to scrap the region file (I can see good logic and principal for its existance, but in practice it is unfair), that we ban ANY trade of starting cities WITHIN teams. e.g. Canada to U.S.A, Netherlands to France.

This will keep the region file for its intended purpose and reduce the scope for certain teams to take advantage.

Let me explain a bit more about the reasoning behind the regions.xls file.

In the last PBEM game we had, we used the rule of no city trading within teams. That rule works to some extend. However, one can work around the rule by trading cities across teams and then buy them back. You might then say, hey that's obviously abusing the rule and lets not allowing it. But one can then further delay the buy back action and it would be too complicated to avoid abusive actions (just have a think about all the possibilities).

I also thought of the distance from capital rule. But it is too inaccurate to use. Some examples: LA is closer to Mexico City than Washington, so it means LA can be traded away to Mexico; Ahvaz (Iran) can be traded to Iraq because it is closer to Baghdad than to Tehran. The fundamental problem of this rule is that, the rule doesn't care about the historical ownership of a city.

So I came up with the idea of using the regions.xls file. It embedded with historical ownership of cities as well as a rule that is relatively easy to follow.

Moreover, probably the more important reason for reviewing the "no city trading within team" rule used in the last game, was that the rule was actually quite harsh for the British and French team. It is quite natural to passing a lot of cities to the local civ. E.g. I was going to hand a lot of Africa cities to S. Africa, pacific islands to NZ and Indian cities to Nepal. It significantly reduce the maintenance burden of UK.

Kai, thats very understandable. But do you understand my anger about this as well? You can reduce your maintainance this way, as can France. Your two nations can make the best out of it... But we others are still ...

Actually in the last few days I'm asking myself if we really need any rules about this at all.

Lets imagine the worst case scenario: the north american team reduced to USA and Mexico-Ciudad + Ottawa. So what? The maintenance would make me pay out of my nose for that stunt.

Or the other extreme: Russia gifts half of Siberia to Mongols. So what? He will not be able to build advanced units there.

The game itself is balancing against such extremes. Having the freedom to decide what to do is IMO more valuable to sticking to "historicty" which we already kicked out the window by making it FFA.

Bastian, how many times I have to say this, the rules are there long before we choose which team we want to play. Until the very last day before the teams are settled, I was still thinking I am going to play the Germany team, the team that would suffer most from the rule (because the rule benefit his enemies the most). It is not appropriate to discuss or change the rules after all the players are set and all the pre-game diplomacy has nearly done. If we don't respect this rule of thumb, I can imagine you to call for changing the rules again in the middle of the game and how unfair is that and how disrupting can it be?

After all, we are only playing a game. Most of us don't even care to be disadvantaged by choosing the minor teams, why should you think so much for just a rule?

Because I just realized the last few days how unfair that rule is? You see, sometimes you'll need time to understand the implications of something.

I agreed to that rule assuming we would talk about regions, regions meaning comparable numbers of cities. But thats just not true as I know since 2 days. The regions in your file range from 1 city up to 30. Those countriues that have their capitals in one of the 30ish regions are screwed.

The regions in your original files are much more evenly distributed, and I did base my decision about this rule on such an even distribution. The new players didn't even have a word concerning that rule.

You know, some people say: "the americans brought democracy to Germany" ... some less polite will add "and forgot it there". Democracy and fairness is very important to some people over here ... including me.

Any chance of leaving this argument?

I'm sure Bastian has a point regarding the file and the perceived unfairness in the way it is implemented, and I've already had my say on it as to an extent I share this opinion, but I really do think we're bothering a bit too much.

My vote is to keep the xls file as is, but use the no team transfer rule. This is more 'fair', and whilst I agree that this prevents some logical and historical moves, it also prevents some very ahistorical and advantage taking moves. I disagree to not have a rule just because there may be ways around it.

But honestly, let's not get too wound up by it. This is the 2nd PBEM and it's a learning process.

I have to say this is already a fun experience. It is good to see that we all take this seriously.

Anyway, I'm calling my coalition Ragnorak, just for kicks and giggles.

GL and have fun!

borgg, have you completed your turn yet? Don't plan too much, you can't capture both Paris and London in your first turn alright? :)

iirc I can't even capture one ;).

Pregame diplomatics seems done now. I got all answers i needed today in the morning. Tonight i will make my turn. Sorry for this delay, but especially for germany the opening is crucial.

I spend a lot of time in creating a map of europe where all units are shown and i can observe the strategic situation. Civgame itself cannot provide such. I was surprised when i was searching for french and british fleets in mediterranean. But finally i found them ;-) .....

I spend a lot of time in creating a map of europe where all units are shown and i can observe the strategic situation. Civgame itself cannot provide such. I was surprised when i was searching for french and british fleets in mediterranean. But finally i found them ;-) .....

So the CIV world builder is not good enough for your planning? What kind of map did you make? do you think we can share it? :lol:

The Worldbulder is horrible for two reasons:

1) i cannot open it same time, when i wanna make my move
2) very slowly and not practical. Just to see the accumulation of units in one field needs me to pick the field, and to put the dropdown menu. This is annoying.

I build now a map, where i can see the linup of all fields in the same time (number of units and type) using a very simple coding.

e.g. a field with following written inside

1T,1I,
1F,4B

means 1 tank, 1inf, 1 fighter and 4 bombers. Only thing i cant see is the promotion level. But this i might have in mind in average. Further the map has only the very basic infos (streets, plain/hill/Summit/Water, Cities ). I will post a screen tonight when i'm at home.

Without that map it's very hard to prepare a campaign with such amount of units. I need to know the map and the relations as good as you do (due you build this map). Since you are propably the better player i should at least rise my knowledge about the map on the same level to compete with you.

The Worldbulder is horrible for two reasons:
:
:
I will post a screen tonight when i'm at home.

I would love to see that map :)


Without that map it's very hard to prepare a campaign with such amount of units. I need to know the map and the relations as good as you do (due you build this map). Since you are propably the better player i should at least rise my knowledge about the map on the same level to compete with you.

I admit I know the map quite well ;) But no, I am not a better player than you. At the moment, I am quite excited of the challenge, but at same time am also quite afraid of the situation.

P = Tank
Inf = infanterie
MG = machine gun
Pk = anti tank
B = bomber
J = Fighter
K = battleship
Z = destroyer
U = sub
F = carrier

Shortcuts are related to german language (sorry)

White Rects are cities.
Red dot in a tilde is an oil field.

Landscape, cities and oil is plotted automatically. (parsing the initial wb-file)
All unit and political border information was set by openoffce-draw.


I did not care for rivers, since most have some roads to pass. Next version will have also information about airports, and docks. MIght be i will be able to get a fully automatically created map wich automatically contains also the units. But its always a little tricky to get all infos in one small window there.

here a world map. Just cut the part you are interested in. Put it as background in any paint program (coreldraw, openoffice-draw, powerpoint etc).

strange, i must put it to a rar file. the forum does not allow png with such large scale, even if the file itself is only 42KB.

btw: in the europe map is still missing some infos about british fleet in atlantic. And another expanded map exists yet, where north africa and mediterranean is attached to the south. I will post later. Now i have soccer-training. Hope i can finish my turn tonight.

Good work! The maps are really nice. I think they can be of good use for military planning.

Once i finished my first turn i will improve this program to full automatic and give it a gui. after that i will provide this here. Maybe i extend it to a real map editor. Lets see ;)

Ok german move done. but rest (ita/hun) still missing. Turn goes out tomorrow. Promised. I guess this one more day does not make any difference now... ;)

Good news: Turn is out to Fanda / Japan

Good news: Turn is out to Fanda / Japan

yay! The ball is rolling! :goodjob:

Bad news :(.

Can make my turn earliest on saterday, mayby monday, because my calendar is full with private stuff to do. very sorry about that. I try everything to do it earlier, but the first turn is normaly the difficultiest.

Since this whole setup is epic anyways... we should not bother about some days. From my point of view each player should take the time he needs. At least for the first turn.

It was the same last game. Subsequent turns will be much faster anyway, since trades/diplomacy/build orders take most of the time, and they will not have to be changed every single turn.

Best Regards,
Ace / Martin

Yeah. Agree. Don't worry Fanda :)

Good news: Turn is out to Fanda / Japan

Borgg, I can't wait to find out how many cities have fallen to the hands of Germany in the first turn? Please tell me! :bowdown:

Why you scared? GB (or better said all cities on GB) is unreachable for me with my transports in first turn. Don't you know? I just conquered Brussels and Amsterdam. But from my point of view nancy and marseilles will fall next turn. And maybe paris. The latter is very unlikely.

Even brussels was a nightmare, since i had to use tanks only for this attack. Fall of amsterdam did not effect cultural borders enough to attack with infantery. Putting so much tanks to the east significantly slows down the german attack. I can post a screen tonight if you wish.

Thanks for telling :)
I wasn't really scare you reaching my cities. But I was really wondering whether you will do something different than expected. Sounds like you haven't.

I am leaving for the weekend to play Fallout-like game in reallife - going to play a postapocalyptic LARP :borg:, returning on sunday. But as I am later on schedule, I think it does not mind :)

Thanks for telling :)
I wasn't really scare you reaching my cities. But I was really wondering whether you will do something different than expected. Sounds like you haven't.

Hm, as far i can see this, its quite impossible to get even any city of france in first turn. No way. Also GB is quite impossible. The only option a german has to conquer more than brussels and amsterdam is scandinavia. The (important) decisiontree is opening at the beginning from turn2. You just have to prepare in turn 1 what you will do in turn2. So its maybe already obvious, where the journey is going to.... i should stop talking now. ;)

Btw: why it's impossible for hungary to declare war on greece?? When i want to do, its simply written "cant declare war", but no reason. Did you setup any secret option to block this?

Well, let see what will you do in turn 2 :)

Hungary is a vassal of Germany - cant declare war on anyone.

...sure. Now i got it. Stupid me :hammer2:

I think a voting is needed. In the german PBEM a exploit ( or something like that) has ocurd. Its while we play more than one country with one player.

For exemple Great Britain has giftet many fighters, bombers and tanks to his vasall India, and attacked with this units inthe same turn the japanese (me). So u can imagine how surprising it was. Last turn there was nothing. One turn later 10 fighters and 5 bombers drops out of nowhere and clean me from the landscape.

So my question is. Will we allow this (make untis as a present to vasall and move this units in the same turn, when vasall is playing). Me tendency is to no, not allowed, but my main interest is to clear that on the beginning.

Never gifted units before, so until you brought this up I never actually realised you could do it with 0 movement points!

Personally I think this is pretty difficult to police, so for that reason alone I would leave as a viable tactic.

I think a voting is needed. In the german PBEM a exploit ( or something like that) has ocurd. Its while we play more than one country with one player.

For exemple Great Britain has giftet many fighters, bombers and tanks to his vasall India, and attacked with this units inthe same turn the japanese (me). So u can imagine how surprising it was. Last turn there was nothing. One turn later 10 fighters and 5 bombers drops out of nowhere and clean me from the landscape.

So my question is. Will we allow this (make untis as a present to vasall and move this units in the same turn, when vasall is playing). Me tendency is to no, not allowed, but my main interest is to clear that on the beginning.

Fandazma, I can see why this is a concern but I vote for it to be fair game. (In other words, we should be able to use the strat)

I can see what Fanda is getting at ... If as Russians I want to bring Bombers based in Moscow into fight with Japan I have to rebase this turn ... Japan gets a chance to recon them and prepare for them, then I can use the Bombers next turn.

Instead, what I can do is gift them to Comm. China during the Russian turn, then on the Comm. China turn I use the Bombers ... Japan doesn't get a chance to recon or prepare for them.

Does seem a bit like a cheat.

Actually, I think this doesn't work. I am sure I did a test on it on our last PBEM to see whether this is an exploit. I think the way it works is that when the unit is gifted, the movement ability is also carried over.
So for example, if Russia moved a tank 1 tile into mongolia and gift it to Mongolia, Mongolia can still move the tank but only with 2 movements left. I didn't do a similar with planes, but I would think the idea would be the same.

Fanda, do you think this is not the case?

Oh. I thought of something. May be this could work with a given order.

Suppose in our game, that Japan is ally with France to attack Russia.

The order of play in a turn is: Japan -> Russia -> France.

In Jan, Japan took his and Russia took his turn as normal. He Recon the Japanese cities to ensure they have no bombers and fighters.
Then France, send some fighters to Japan and gifted to Japan. The in Feb, since it is a new turn, the Jap can use the gifted fighters to attack Russia.

So this exploit can only works if the one being invaded happens to be in between the play order of the two invader. And the gifting works only one way: the later gift the units to the earlier. Fanda, is this your case?

If what I suspect is true, then at least in our case, this can happens very rare, because we grouped and ordered the potential enemies in order. For the big players: Germany -> Japan -> Russia -> France -> Britain -> America.

So unless one of us is decided to change side, this is not a problem for us.

It is no exploit. An unit can only act once per turn. As Kai described: if you did gift your unit to a civ that will act in the next turn, it can act "twice in a row", but not more then once per turn.

I have break my Beautiness-Sleep and make my turn in the morning between 6 and 8. ONLY FOR YOU :)

---> Ace

So unless one of us is decided to change side, this is not a problem for us.

I cannot really see that happening. Can you ... :mischief:

Actually it IS possible Kai. I did myself last game beeing brits. I send british ships from singapur into australian water and gift it to australia. Australia moved after this. The ships could travel AGAIN 9 tildes. So they made 18 tildes in ONE and the SAME month. Same was done one time with landunits! I send them via air-transport to an australian city and gift it. Australia could use them!

To my surprise this did not work this time using german bombers. I put them to an italian city and gift it. When italy was on turn, i could NOT use them anymore.

I'm a litte confused and dont know why it's working sometimes and somtimes not.

What had been the differencies?

1) I used air planes instead of ships/landunits this time.
2) Italy is no vasall of Germany while Australia is vasall of GB ( is it? )

I think its more likely to be 2). Since e.g. air transport is only allowed to own citys OR into cities of you vasall. This exploit might be related to the vasall/hegemon stuff.

Actually I would allow this. For the simple reason: its hard to trigger, if someone used this and we will have endless discussions. If we forbid, than all people should honestly agree with that.

Well mmm.... that's weird.

I did the test using Germany and Hungary last time. As an example, I remember I moved a panzer from Germany to Hungary and then gift it to Hungary. When it is Hungary's turn, Hungary can move only 2 tiles. Hungary is a vassal of Germany. I moved not just one unit but a few. I am quite sure it wasn't just happened to me once out of luck.

On the other hand, Australia is NOT a vassal of Britain in the new setting. I don't see any reason why it works in your case of Britain/Australia but not the cases we both observed as Germany/Italy/Hungary.

I really hope this is not at random.

Actually it IS possible Kai. I did myself last game beeing brits. I send british ships from singapur into australian water and gift it to australia. Australia moved after this. The ships could travel AGAIN 9 tildes. So they made 18 tildes in ONE and the SAME month. Same was done one time with landunits! I send them via air-transport to an australian city and gift it. Australia could use them!

To my surprise this did not work this time using german bombers. I put them to an italian city and gift it. When italy was on turn, i could NOT use them anymore.

I'm a litte confused and dont know why it's working sometimes and somtimes not.

What had been the differencies?

1) I used air planes instead of ships/landunits this time.
2) Italy is no vasall of Germany while Australia is vasall of GB ( is it? )

I think its more likely to be 2). Since e.g. air transport is only allowed to own citys OR into cities of you vasall. This exploit might be related to the vasall/hegemon stuff.

Actually I would allow this. For the simple reason: its hard to trigger, if someone used this and we will have endless discussions. If we forbid, than all people should honestly agree with that.

Australia is vasall of Britain, Italy is no vasall of Gemany

Hmm but hungary is german vasall too, as kai says. So this might not be the reason why its working.

Hmm then i have no idea. Ok but i can live with it, when it is allowed. I use it then in Thailand :).

Well mmm.... that's weird.
On the other hand, Australia is NOT a vassal of Britain in the new setting.

But in the old settings it was. And thats where it worked. But when you tell germany/hungary did not work.... I will setup a random hotseat game with 3 players and will try some. If i find any substantial explanation i let you know.

In the end we should agree on one rule.

Kai: Please make a email poll again.

Just to confuse things a little more ...

I was playing a single player game yesterday as Russia and was rebasing bombers and jet fighters.

All cities concerned had no airbase so air unit limit was 4.

With the cities I owned, I was only allowed 4 air units, whether bomber or jet or mix.

I was also rebasing to a vassal's cities. Max number of bombers I could rebase was 4, likewise jets were 4 BUT in what seemed like random circumstances, if I had already rebased 4 bombers, then tried to rebase jets to the same city, with some cities it would let me exceed the 4 air units already there !!! Unfortunately I didn't have any more time to continue experimenting but when I do, I will let you know what happened.



Bottom line ... it looks like vassal rebasing and gifting may be random to a certain extent. By 'random' I mean probably bugged.

borgg: I can do a poll of course. But I think we need to find out whats causing it, other wise I don't think it is meaningful.

Dazz_G: Just to confirm, those cities that can exceed the 4 aircraft limit have no airports? I suppose you realize that with airports, the aircraft limits becomes 8?

I checked a couple of the cities concerned (I had 'investigate city' espionage) and there was no airport.

For the other cities, when rebasing the little display on the left screen displays 0/4 , 1/4 and so on to let you know the aircraft limit and I was able to rebase a jet when the number was 4/4. Also, I wasn't able to rebase a 5th bomber to a city which already had 4 bombers or a 5th jet when 4 jets were present ... I was only able to rebase a jet fighter when the city already had 4 bombers :crazyeye:

Oh ok. You did mention no airbase in your previous post.
Then I don't know.
But I think this issue is rather less important. I found at least 2 other minor issues that are probably civ4 bugs (one related to airlift, the other related to collateral damage). I don't think we should spent too much of our time fixing Civ4's bugs :)

But I think this issue is rather less important. I found at least 2 other minor issues that are probably civ4 bugs (one related to airlift, the other related to collateral damage). I don't think we should spent too much of our time fixing Civ4's bugs :)

That depends on whether you are the one doing the rebasing or the one getting hammered by all those aircraft :D

I agree though ... if we tried to sort out all the Civ4 bugs, we would be starting this game on Civ5 :D

Martin, are you still taking your turn as Middle East?

No, I sent it to Russia yesterday. I hope it arrived? Sorry I did not post earlier.

It didn't arrive.

If I get it soon, I might be able to get it done today. If I cannot get it done today, I am totally out of action Wed and Thur as I'll be in hospital for a minor operation.

Dang! The bad thing is, I sent it from my computer at home, and I cannot access this from where I am now. Unfortunately I will not be able to re-send it until this evening... sorry :(

I wonder why the message failed... :/ The file is not even very large.

Best Regards,
Martin

It didn't arrive.

If I get it soon, I might be able to get it done today. If I cannot get it done today, I am totally out of action Wed and Thur as I'll be in hospital for a minor operation.

No need to rush. Take it easy and good luck for your operation ;)

I've just did a bit of testing for the gifting unit issue. In short, I cannot generate the "double movement within a turn" phenomena.

I did a land unit gifting between Germany and Hungary. A tank spent 1 movement cost into Hungary and then gifted, Hungarian can still move the tank with 2 movements left;

I did an air unit gifting between Britain and Australia. When a British fighter is rebased to Sydney and gifted to Australia, Australian cannot use the fighter in the same turn;

I did a naval unit gifting between Australia and New Zealand. An Aussie Destroyer moved 5 tiles into NZ territory and then gifted to NZ. NZ in the same turn can still move the destroyer but only with 5 movement left (10 - 5).

Borgg, can you send me the save how you did the double movement between Britain and Australia? Can you give me the save before and after the gifting?

By the way, I re-sent the turn. I really hope it arrived this time, and sorry for the hold-up.

Best Regards,
Martin

I will try to find Kai. I dont remember exactly which turn it has been. But i will check out this. This should be reproducable also in any other game. Maybe it's easier to setup a game on a more tiny map which does not take such long times to load :crazyeye:. Playing arround with these szenario is annoying due my slow pc.

What machines do you use? My AMD-4000+x2 /2 GB Rams needs couple of minuts to load a save. I even thought about buying new cpu but 5600+ will just help 33%. (faster cpu of amd take more than 65W and this would need me to speedup my fan causing noise ;) ). So i decided against. 33% more performance is not worth the spending of 50€. :(

I have the same Problem. Takes about 10 Minutes to load a turn and when i will load Vasall Save after Japans turn directly from the ingame-Menu then Civ crashes. I must completly out the game, whit a few minutes, while the memory usage is falling down and the load the vasall save. But is worth all the wait :goodjob:.

My system is:

Intel Core 2 4300 1.80 Ghz
1 Gb Ram
Ati Radeon HD3850 512 Mb

i know not the best and less Memory :). But in 3 Month there will by a new and better one. (If my wife is in good mood :lol:)

Same problem. I guess it happens to everyone with two gigabytes of RAM or less. I cannot consecutively load save games with the GEM mod, I get a crash to desktop every time I try unless I first restart the game.

One thing I would therefore suggest to consider for the next PBEM (although this is probably not going to be started in the near future) is to combine every teams civilizations into a single civilization for the PBEM, significantly reducing loading time and possibly simplifying empire management.

Best Regards,
Ace

I would rather suggest we just take one nation each and leave the rest for AI, instead of artificially combining the nations into super nations. A world with only 9 nations doesn't seem realistic.

Yes, you are quite right, it does not seem realistic to have a world with only nine nations. But then again, the concept of this game is civilizations, not nations.

To my mind, however, a civilization (in game terms) might as well represent a bloc or alliance of nations with similar cultural background or ideologies.

I see, however, the problem that it will not be easy to represent such a bloc properly with a common government (capital city, state religion & civics). This is certainly not a perfect solution to the problem, just something that came to my mind.

Best Regards,
Martin

In fact, what came to my mind is a sort of both, combining those vassal states while leaving the others independently controlled by AI.

For example:
Hungary -> Germany
S. Africa -> Britain
Mongolia -> Russia
Manchuria -> Japan
CPC China -> KMT China
N. Z. -> Australia

I can then see a good setting for a 12 player game: Germany, Italy, Japan, Russia, China, France, Netherlands, Britain, Australia, Canada, America and Brazil.

The difficulty of course, is that there will be too many players. May be Netherlands and Brazil can be dropped out to make it 10. But I think that already starts to get unbalanced.

The beauty of this setting is that, there will be no more concern of city gifting and unit gifting, as well as no reload needed.

Hmm, I think WW2 doesn't lend itself very well to such a game. BUT: there is nothing to stop us from making such a scenario with todays data.

North-America
South-America
Europe
Near East
Africa
Russia
China
Japan

8 rather strong areas. The most troublesome regions to decide where to place would probably be Carribean, Caucasus, Israel, Korea, South-East-Asia and Australia/NZ. Maybe Oceania could be a 9th player, or SE-Asia (Indonesia?) could.

Though GEM as a mod might not be the best suited for such a game ... as there is nothing to research anymore.

I'm on vacancy until Sunday. But i think the cylce won't arrive me before. Just wanted to announce.

Oh well, same here. Will be back on Monday - however, I doubt that it will be my turn to play again before then.

Best Regards,
Martin

The turn did arrive in my absence.

I shall work on it today.

I am leaving for weekend, I will be back on Monday :)

Sorry for holding things up ... I have been in too much pain to be able to spend enough time at the computer to get the first turn completed.

Hope to get it knocked out over the next 24 hours or so.

Played and sent to Marky

Thanks for being so patient guys :)

Look's like its going to take one whole month for finishing our first turn. We will be truly playing the game calender :lol:

I start to feel that we might have been too aggressive trying to have human playing all 36 nations. It is going to take one month for our first turn and it is likely to take 2 weeks per turn there after. May be it is still too early to conclude, but I think the turn around time is too long.

Sorry to be a bit discouraging, but this is what I am thinking. Nevertheless, I am happy to continue the game if everyone don't feel that this is a problem. I will continue to wait patiently, Unless we all thinking the same :)

Well, one easy solution would be to reset up the game, and adding the teams together to supernations. But yeah, your map is fairly unwieldy for a pbem.

no problem for me. Besides the second turn will be faster done and so i have time for my real life if i dont get a turn all 3 days :).

Obviously, there are many options if we restart. I didn't want to discuss them yet, however, unless there are signs that the majority wants to.

I don't really mind, but potentially it's probably quite likely that someone will drop out before the game is completed.

At this rate the game is going to take more than a year... And if we play until a time victory, although unlikely, our game would take about 5 years on that projection. So in that sense, the game is far too long if we want to be likely to reach a victory conclusion.

The experience from our first approach shows, that the next turns will be faster.

I agree with Borgg ... once you get a couple of turns out of the way, things speed up a fair bit.

Whats the alternatives ... a game with quite a few AI positions or, as suggested, countries combined into supernations which may mean fewer people but also means each player's turn would take considerably longer to play which may rule out a lot of potential players, especially with the problem that a PBEM turn cannot be saved mid turn - you gotta play it all in one go :crazyeye:

where we are actually? Who is making his turn currently? Just want to schedule when i could be over my next turn ;)

I am making my first turn (China, France, Netherlands, Greece). I am in the middle of France turn, I expect to finish it this afternoon.

Seems like most of you are more patient than I do. Well then this is my chance to learn :)

I am making my first turn (China, France, Netherlands, Greece). I am in the middle of France turn, I expect to finish it this afternoon.
Well, your next turns will be shorter. You will have less units and cities to handle. :cool:

Well, your next turns will be shorter. You will have less units and cities to handle. :cool:

Well then, Filip and I will try our best to ensure you to have the same luxury too :p

Hmm, I could declare war on Canada and Mexico ... thereby reducing the number of civs to play.

Well then, Filip and I will try our best to ensure you to have the same luxury too :p
I am really scared what you come up with. But iirc the british options for counter-strike in first turn are very limited.

@bastian: haha. ;)

So finaly my first turns are done and sent. Sorry for delay, next time there will be less things to setup (and forgot) and I will be faster definitely:hammer2:

I am really scared what you come up with. But iirc the british options for counter-strike in first turn are very limited.

@bastian: haha. ;)

Don't worry, I won't take Berlin in my first turn, haha :lol:

Moverred, could you please confirm that you have received the game and taking your turn witout problem? It happened a few times that we thought the game was already send and later realize it actually didn't.

Otherwise, please take your time to play it :)

Any word from Moverred ?

maybe we should start the search for replacement if he does not responds. :(

Moverred sent me an email. He said he was out of town and just came back yesterday.

Nice. You checked the files i sent you once more Kai?

Received your latest password this morning at work. Will try tonight.

Hey borgg, I can reproduce the double movement phenomena using your save game. Weird...

Hey whats the status? Has Moverred got the save?

He has it and that was two days ago. Hopefully he should be about to sent out his turn to me soon.

The turn was sent to Moverred a week ago ... has there been any communication other than to say he has the turn ?

Got another email from him today, after me chasing up:

Sorry man, it has been hectic. I could not have got this turn at a worse time. I had jury duty the last two days and then the weekend was booked and now I have class tonight, a homework assignment due tomorrow and work in the morning plus class at night again. I will definitely have it out friday, and this will not happen again. I know you guys are hating me right now and I wish I would have just done it friday and not worried about all he details.

Erick


I have replied and kindly reminded him to keep us inform about his availability next time.

Got another email from him today, after me chasing up:



I have replied and kindly reminded him to keep us inform about his availability next time.

No problem, the Worldwar can wait :)

Has the turn moved yet ?

Heard nothing from him yet.

I guest we should probably discuss whether we should find a replacement. Moverred didn't keep his promise 3 times in a role already. He never informed us about his availability except after me chasing up.

What do you guys think?

It certainly looks bad for his future reliability.

Replacing him at this stage may impact those people who have already played their first turn.

Sorry to waste your time guys but I am just not feeling this game. I don't have a lot of time and it's just not as fun as I thought it would be. I don't see the point in playing a game that I am not having fun playing.

Sorry to waste your time guys but I am just not feeling this game. I don't have a lot of time and it's just not as fun as I thought it would be. I don't see the point in playing a game that I am not having fun playing.

Not entirely sure how you can expect to have fun playing a game when you haven't even played the first turn ... :confused:

At least, kudos for not dragging things out even further.

What do we do now ? I believe this will now definately impact upon those of us who have already played.

Sorry to waste your time guys but I am just not feeling this game. I don't have a lot of time and it's just not as fun as I thought it would be. I don't see the point in playing a game that I am not having fun playing.

We're not feeling it either, Moverred, since you haven't bothered playing your turn and just kept giving us a load a bull excuses.

Not as fun? Each to their own, but you haven't even taken your turn. Sounds pretty pathetic really. Anyway, that's rant over.

Guys, can we change the recipient of this turn (it's just a manual email, right?) or do we need to start again?

If we can change the recipient then I suggest we carry on with a new player even if this impacts on deals. The new player can choose to honour them or not, but not doing would likely come with it's own consequences.

I agree. If the new player changes his mind... . .. .. .. . happens. Leaders can fall and new leaders rise with another foreign politics. Thats life and simply reality. :crazyeye:. Just want continue to play. To find another player takes time, and we will have to give him another time to get into the game ( check out the map) and to do his own diplo.... So we should start right now to avoid the break to expand further...

I agree, we should try to continue. There was someone who applied earlier, right?

Best Regards,
Martin

I've just send a private message to Mordredis, the Brazilian guy who said he is interested to join the game previously.

We're not feeling it either, Moverred, since you haven't bothered playing your turn and just kept giving us a load a bull excuses.

Not as fun? Each to their own, but you haven't even taken your turn. Sounds pretty pathetic really. Anyway, that's rant over.

Guys, can we change the recipient of this turn (it's just a manual email, right?) or do we need to start again?

If we can change the recipient then I suggest we carry on with a new player even if this impacts on deals. The new player can choose to honour them or not, but not doing would likely come with it's own consequences.

We can change the player. No problem at all.

I feel pretty sad about the sudden drop out of a player too. But let's not getting too frustrated. Think of it the other way around - we have 8 committed players, isn't that wonderful?;)

We can change the player. No problem at all.

I feel pretty sad about the sudden drop out of a player too. But let's not getting too frustrated. Think of it the other way around - we have 8 committed players, isn't that wonderful?;)

It is. It is precisely that everyone else is committed that it's annoying, but i know what you're saying, let's not let this become a big issue ;)

I still haven't receive feedback from the Brazilian guy. Can we do some advertisement, and do so in the other forums, such as the German one?

Guys,

I know that the majority of us are willing to continue the current game, especially those who have taken their turn already. I certainly would respect that and at this moment, I am still trying my best to find the replacement so that we can continue the game.

But I would like to once again voice out my opinion of just giving up the current game and restart with only the 8 of us. The reason is that, we might eventually able to get a replacement player, but with the current setting, a turn would take at least 2 weeks (assuming the game has played a few turns already) and I can foresee another player might drop out in the future due to the long wait.

I suggest to restart with a simple game setting: 8 single players with no rules and no modification to the scenario. The 8 players that we should choose from are:
Germany, Italy, Japan, Russia, China, France, Britain and America (The largest 8 nations in the game).

I think this setting can get a game played one week/turn after the game is stable. We can also set the difficulty to Emperor level so that the AI can be more stronger.

What do you think?

As much as I don't really want to start the whole start of game diplo thing for the third time :crazyeye: I feel this might be the best way forward.

Britain starts as one nation together with commonwealth? or simply only as britain (without india, australia etc..)?

I am suggesting to not modifying the scenario, i.e. Britain is only Britain, India and other colonies as defined by the scenario, but not including Australia, Canada or South Africa.

Urghs. Thats hard. I'd still prefer the unification of all "teams" to supernations. This is also done in all boardgames concerning WW2 (e.g. Axis & allies ). This is

- more clear
- more easy to handle (especially air transport inside you own countries)
...all in all better to play.

I know you do not like your very well designed szenario to split into two versions. But the gap between historically correctness and civ4 gameplay in MP is to big.

If the majority prefers supernations, I am fine with it. But there are certainly good reasons for no modifications:
1) No need to argue how to combine nations. I am sure there will be different opinions what ever we suggest. Therefore, the safest way is to play the default setting.
2) Control less units and cities, which can speed up the game. The most important reason why we are restarting.
3) More realistic with the 36 nations existing.

There is one good reason against not modifying: without modifications there are just four sensible nations to play: USA, SU, Germany and Japan. The 4 other nations would be just sword fodder for the 4 majors.

There is one good reason against not modifying: without modifications there are just four sensible nations to play: USA, SU, Germany and Japan. The 4 other nations would be just sword fodder for the 4 majors.

Not necessarily. That is a bit simplistic. What about diplomacy?

Sure, Germany can crush France, or Italy, or maybe UK mainland. But it'd be pretty difficult all at once against all 3 if they ally. We've also got more possibilities as there are more 'Teams', even though AI, to leverage.

The player that takes for instance France or Italy will just have to put some effort in, working on the diplomacy.

Personally, though, I'm quite happy to wait for another player. I've posted an advert in the multiplayer forum.

to 1) i would even hand this completely to you. Everyone can do a suggestion (BEFORE we apply to any nation). After this YOU do whatever you want with that. No further discussion than...

to 2) as long i only need to load once this is even much better than before. so much units are not to move. After first turn with initial production is done it can run quickly. Also management of ressources is easier than. No more need to split the little oil ressources to several nations. No need to think in british turn to offer some to australia. Without explicit knowledge what japanese has done its even more hard for GB to plan the help for down under e.g. ...no i dont think number of units this was a problem.

to 3) Realism is spoiled by stupid AI anyways. All games of WW2 are only a approximation. Simplyfication can be done in following terms:

-reduce eco complexity
-reduce number of units
-reduce complexity of battlesystem
-reduce number of players (=nations)

we only touch one of this now. I again refer to the boardgame Axis & Allies. There all 4 points remarkably have been touched. And still it's fun to play. So.... Dont bother my friend :)

Re 1) Thanks for your trust :) But that's exactly how we managed the last game. Obviously, not everyone are comfortable with that arrangement. If we are not playing the default, I would prefer to wait for someone else to suggest the setting, and then I can be the back seat driver this time :p

Re 2) You reminded me another problem - Resource. That's another reason why we shouldn't combine nations. GEM is designed play with at least 24+ nations. If we are talking about combining it to 8 supernations, there will be too many resources on the map. For example, oil supply will no longer be a problem to the Axis. Science research will also be too much faster than it should if nations are combined.

Re 3) True. But AI are playing the minor civs only. Human are still controlling the major opponents. And if we increase our handicap setting, that would make AI harder to conquer.

re 1) I would simply do following:
Team1 : germany/hungary/italy
Team2 : France / holland
Team3 : GB / Canada / India (Forbidden palace here) / Australia / NZ / Southafrica /egypt
Team4 : Russia / mongolia
Team5 : Japan, Mandschuria
Team6 : Southamerica
Team7 : USA

All others to KI's grouped on continents.

e.g. one nation for sweden / finland / norway / denmark / greece/ switzerland / spain / portugal.

One nations for middle east.

re 2) Well, the ressource stuff is buggy anyways from my point of view. Just remember rommels army in africa. Rommel was damn lack of fuel. He could not move anything without transports from italy. What we have here in civ?
Once the axis army crossed the mediterranean it can traven until kapstadt without any refuel. I would not mind, if this "problem" is just simplificated to: Everybody has enough fuel. ;-)

re 3) As long the AI is only passive (as all people who played the scenario vs KI observed) its all the same. All major powers has enough Offensive equipment to conquer each KI easily

My position on the issue: I would be willing to restart, but would not like to control more than one civilization, simply for convenience.

If this is achieved by combining the existing civs into supernations (the exact composition of those, of course, I would leave totally up to you, Kai), by each of us playing single nations or simply by me getting to play a larger nation like Russia or the USA which does not require me to have vassals/team members while the other civilizations may be grouped into teams, I do not care much.

I see the ressource thing the same way as Borgg, I do not care if there are shortages or not. As far as I am concerned, I would be fine with no team having ressource problems unless things get desperate for them anyway...

Best regards,
Martin

My position on the issue: I would be willing to restart, but would not like to control more than one civilization, simply for convenience.

If this is achieved by combining the existing civs into supernations (the exact composition of those, of course, I would leave totally up to you, Kai), by each of us playing single nations or simply by me getting to play a larger nation like Russia or the USA which does not require me to have vassals/team members while the other civilizations may be grouped into teams, I do not care much.

I see the ressource thing the same way as Borgg, I do not care if there are shortages or not. As far as I am concerned, I would be fine with no team having ressource problems unless things get desperate for them anyway...

Best regards,
Martin

I pretty much agree with all of this. I believe that controlling one civ (supra or otherwise) far outweighs the resource issues, especially since it means that the game will hopefully circulate alot quicker.

It also means that once we agree on the civs (if supra) there can be no complaining about city trading etc.

But i'd also be happy to continue.

I too would be happy to continue but with us already a player missing and the current system a bit cumbersome then restarting is probably the best option.

If we do restart then I agree largely with Borgg and Martin.

OK. I think we all agree to restart the game with each of us only playing one civ (single or combined). The issue is to discuss whether or not to modify the scenario to create supernations. And if so, how to combine them.

I still concern about resources. Resource was the only way for Britain/France to beat Germany. Eliminating that route means Germany will certainly win the war in Europe. Not only that, if Germany combine the resources from Italy and Hungary to start off with, the mining corporation can give more production bonus to Germany. The outcome of the combination is unpredictable.

It might be that this would shift the balance of power in one direction, but supposing that this will become obvious as the game progresses I assume alliances will shift accordingly.

In a FFA game, to my mind, having players whose controlled civilizations vary in power is not as problematic as in team games with two teams only. If one civilization gains an edge, the others would probably be inclined to work together to stop them.

Of course this only holds true as far as winning the game is concerned... weaker civilizations might still be kicked out of the game more easily, especially given that it will take all of us a few turns to get an intuition for the respective strength of all the civilizations in the game.

However, I guess that we have to expect some players be eliminated from the game in the process if we play for 240 turns, sooner or later. I doubt that we will see a time victory with all of the players still alive.

Best Regards,
Martin

Well ok. Most of you seems to like the idea of combining. Let's do so then.

The next question is how?
Let's start working from borgg's suggestion.

re 1) I would simply do following:
Team1 : germany/hungary/italy
Team2 : France / holland
Team3 : GB / Canada / India (Forbidden palace here) / Australia / NZ / Southafrica /egypt
Team4 : Russia / mongolia
Team5 : Japan, Mandschuria
Team6 : Southamerica
Team7 : USA

All others to KI's grouped on continents.

e.g. one nation for sweden / finland / norway / denmark / greece/ switzerland / spain / portugal.

One nations for middle east.

My first question to borgg is, where is China? :rolleyes:

the mining corporation can give more production bonus to Germany. The outcome of the combination is unpredictable.

What about turning Corporations off ?

My first question to borgg is, where is China? :rolleyes:

I would have thought Communist China should be part of the Russian position.

to china: put comunist china to russia (since it was its political influence). rest national china as one KI together with nepal.

corporations:
Forbidding is one way. Might be this is the best solution.
On the other hand we can spoil german production with deleting some plants, industrial centers or factories...whatever.

to china: put comunist china to russia (since it was its political influence). rest national china as one KI together with nepal.


I would of thought China can be a human player by itself (Nationalist + Communist + Nepal). You have only 7 players in your human player list. If China is AI controlled, Japan is way too advantaged, as compared to Germany vs France.


corporations:
Forbidding is one way. Might be this is the best solution.

I don't think this is good. Corporation is part of the balancing factor in the game. Taking out corporation is going to affect game balance alot. For example, those civ with corporation HQ will have no corporation bonus any more.


On the other hand we can spoil german production with deleting some plants, industrial centers or factories...whatever.

But that's more or less suggesting to remake the scenario. It's going to take me days to make changes, test, then change again etc. This is another important reason why I suggest to play the default.

I would of thought China can be a human player by itself (Nationalist + Communist + Nepal). You have only 7 players in your human player list. If China is AI controlled, Japan is way too advantaged, as compared to Germany vs France.
I admit i'm not very familar with the china situation.... But i guess its similar to the situation of greece or scandinavia. You just can wait to get slaughtered. This can be done also by a high level KI (we can simply rise the KI level). Further Japan will get faced with russia immediately. Also GB will appear much stronger after unification of all its vasalls. So japan has enough problems.

I dont mind to have only 7 players. Any need to have 8?


But that's more or less suggesting to remake the scenario. It's going to take me days to make changes, test, then change again etc. This is another important reason why I suggest to play the default.
Playing the default will be very easy for germany in europe. Also japan is easy going in pacific. This situation is much worse than just leaving National China to KI in like in my suggestion.

I admit i'm not very familar with the china situation.... But i guess its similar to the situation of greece or scandinavia. You just can wait to get slaughtered. This can be done also by a high level KI (we can simply rise the KI level). Further Japan will get faced with russia immediately. Also GB will appear much stronger after unification of all its vasalls. So japan has enough problems.

I think this is very wrong, both historically and in the scenario. China was an important player in WW2, ranking 4th to 5th in the Allies. That's not my ranking but the public ranking at the end of the war. That's why China was given one of the five permanent seats in the Security Council in the united nations (the other 4 are USA, USSR, UK and France). As compared to Poland, France, Denmark, Netherlands or Greece, who surrendered or lost entirely to Germany within a month after being invaded, China was at full scale war with Japan since July 1937 up until Japan surrendered on Aug 1945. China never has surrendered within the 8 years. On July 1937, Japan claimed that they are able to take over entire China in three months, it turn out that they are only able to take Shanghai in three months. They then thought after taking Nanking, China will surrender. But China moved the capital to Wuhan and continue to fight. Japanese then thought taking Wuhan the Chinese will fall. But China once again moved the capital to Chongqing. The resistance was actually stiffer and stiffer on Japanese. By 1940, Japanese has reached a stalemate with Chinese. I can't remember the exact number, but roughly, Japan suffered 2/3 to 3/4 of its military casualties from China in the entire world war 2. Given all these facts, how can you claim China was only Greece or Scandanivia and was just waiting for slaughtered?


I dont mind to have only 7 players. Any need to have 8?

But we have 8 people here who are all commited to play. I think it is not right to throw out anyone.


Playing the default will be very easy for germany in europe. Also japan is easy going in pacific. This situation is much worse than just leaving National China to KI in like in my suggestion.
I don't think it is any easier for the Axis for the default, if we are comparing it with combining Germany and Italy and giving it to one player.

how can you claim China was only Greece or Scandanivia and was just waiting for slaughtered?
I know these facts about china and reality in WW2 ;-). I was talking only about this scenario. Maybe i underestimate the chinese capabilities. But i think its hard to apply the way of warefare (mass of people) to civ4 here. Can China produce this waves of infantery here? I guess no.


But we have 8 people here who are all commited to play. I think it is not right to throw out anyone.
I dont want to throw anyone. I thought we are lack of one person now and we are 7 !? So than i was mistaken, sorry.


I don't think it is any easier for the Axis for the default, if we are comparing it with combining Germany and Italy and giving it to one player.
great britain wont have the fighter production from Australia and Canada anymore. No idea whats happening to india. These crazy intermix there is horrible. However you turn it, canada and australia will not participate as they should do.

I know these facts about china and reality in WW2 ;-). I was talking only about this scenario. Maybe i underestimate the chinese capabilities. But i think its hard to apply the way of warefare (mass of people) to civ4 here. Can China produce this waves of infantery here? I guess no.

Well, that's what I said, i think the comment was wrong both historically and in the scenario. I definitely have simulated that situation in China. I think human China vs human Japan will reach a stalemate.


I dont want to throw anyone. I thought we are lack of one person now and we are 7 !? So than i was mistaken, sorry.

That's fine then. I wouldn't mind playing the Chinese team.


great britain wont have the fighter production from Australia and Canada anymore. No idea whats happening to india. These crazy intermix there is horrible. However you turn it, canada and australia will not participate as they should do.
You've got mixed up with previous versions. India is all controlled by Britain.

Put it this way, who do you think would suffer more? removing Italy from Germany? or removing Australia and Canada from Britain? I think it is hard to say.

By the way, I have spent some time looking at combining nations last night. It is much harder than changing the order. I've got to fix up the unique buildings and unique units. I also have to fix the culture. All of these can not be done by simply search and replace all in the entire file. It needs to be done city by city, unit by unit. It is going to a huge task.

actually i expand my map-vison tool to a scenario builder. you will be able to do most ugly stuff automatically. ;)

actually i expand my map-vison tool to a scenario builder. you will be able to do most ugly stuff automatically. ;)

I am willing to see it :)

Is ther any chance of removing Helicopters from their current tech and moving them to a later one ... I'm finding it way too easy to zip around with my Attack Choppers wiping out enemy tanks way too early in the game (on single player of course ;))

Well, I just read your proposal for a position in the game (team of Scandanavia and Iberia). If the offer is still valid, I would be interested. Thanks!

While we are already discussing to restart the game because we could not find a replacement, I think we all welcome you to join and continue the current game. Am I correct guys?

Geronimo, would you please PM me your email address?

I Agreed to this.

Sounds good to me.

very nive and welcome Geronimo. So we can play then, I hope.

As a matter of interest, I have spent some time thinking of a balanced setting for a 9 player game. While we are going to continue the current game, I just wanted to share it here:

1) Germany + Hungary
2) Italy + Finland
3) Japan + Manchuria
4) Russia + Mongolia
5) CPC China + KMT China
6) France + Netherlands + Norway
7) Britain + S. Africa + Australia + NZ
8) Canada + America
9) Spain + Portugal + Brazil + Argentina + Chile

AIs: Sweden, Greece, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, Saudi, Iran, Nepal, Thailand, Mexico, Colombia, Peru

Sorry if I do not participate in the discussion so much atm. I'm currently in job negotiations, and might end up 1.100 km / 700 miles from here in a matter of 1 month. Hope you understand that my head is filled with other stuff at the moment. So if you can bear with me being a bit slopy answering for the time being, I'd be glad. ;)

Sorry if I do not participate in the discussion so much atm. I'm currently in job negotiations, and might end up 1.100 km / 700 miles from here in a matter of 1 month. Hope you understand that my head is filled with other stuff at the moment. So if you can bear with me being a bit slopy answering for the time being, I'd be glad. ;)

Good luck for your job negotiation :) I have also just moved house the last weekend and I thought I will be delaying the game during this period, but everything turn out to be quite well.

BTW, I have received the save from Geromino tonight and start playing my turn. I think I will pass my turn tomorrow night or latest Saturday. So Bastian, hopefully your weekend is free for your turn ;)

I have just send Jan 1940 turn to Bastian.

turn received, I'll try to work on it tomorrow, as my time is severly limited at this time. *pointing to my previous post* Hope you can stand with me being slower then usual.

turn out to South America.

received february turn from south america. Will do my turn tomorrow. Here its 11:15pm now and i have to get up early.

sent to Japan

(slick move Kai...to place the air fleet in russia)

sent to Japan

(slick move Kai...to place the air fleet in russia)

What? What air fleet? :D

So how many French cities have you captured this turn? If none, I think it can considered as Allies winning the turn; if one city, it can be considered as neutral; anything more than one, it is Axis winning the turn.

4 Cities. -> Axis Victory :cool:. But i guess you only talk about european cities.

Africa:
The one close to Adis Abeba, Tunis and Gabes. In Tunis i got 2 french Bombers and 1 dutch Fighter on ground and in Gabes 1 more Durch fighter.

Europe:
I got marseilles. Nancy had too much troops left. I had only a few losses but all in all not enough bodycount to get all. But i guess france cant hold it next month.

And my oilfield in romania is well prepared for your attacks. 5 fighters waiting for you. :nono:. I put them in initial turn to hungaria yet. So just try... :p
One question: why you put them to lvov and not to greece? Is there any advantage in that you wanna share with me?

4 Cities. -> Axis Victory :cool:. But i guess you only talk about european cities.

Africa:
The one close to Adis Abeba, Tunis and Gabes. In Tunis i got 2 french Bombers and 1 dutch Fighter on ground and in Gabes 1 more Durch fighter.

Europe:
I got marseilles. Nancy had too much troops left. I had only a few losses but all in all not enough bodycount to get all. But i guess france cant hold it next month.

And my oilfield in romania is well prepared for your attacks. 5 fighters waiting for you. :nono:. I put them in initial turn to hungaria yet. So just try... :p
One question: why you put them to lvov and not to greece? Is there any advantage in that you wanna share with me?

Yes, I meant only European cities. By what you told me, it sounds like what I've expected, but almost the worst scenario expected. So, I think it is only neutral with small victory for axis ;)

For my airplanes, well, simply because Russian cities are closer than Greece. And you knew that I have a total of 8 planes in there right? :p

Oh, i only had view to Lvov and see 3 Fighters and 1 bomber. Than you placed some more in the city s/e of Lvov? Not bad. Added the 12 ? fighters in London you put almost your whole airfleet to these two spots? Amazing.

turn on the way to Ace

:mad:

The Russian Government gave no permission for British planes to be stationed in Russian territory.

The Russians are not at war with Germany and as such shall not permit Russian airbases to station British (or any other nationality) aircraft for use against Germany or any other country which we are not at war with.

Therefore, the Russian Givernment demand the removal of these forces immediately.

One more question Kai... how to put so many fighters to london? Afir 6 should be a limit, even with airbase. How could you work arround this?

:mad:

The Russian Government gave no permission for British planes to be stationed in Russian territory.

The Russians are not at war with Germany and as such shall not permit Russian airbases to station British (or any other nationality) aircraft for use against Germany or any other country which we are not at war with.

Therefore, the Russian Givernment demand the removal of these forces immediately.

Well, there are obviously some misunderstanding. I thought when we negotiate the open border agreement, you haven't mention about not permitting our units to enter your border. I think it would be quite understandable that if nothing specifically mentioned about it, then open border means open border?

Anyway, lets continue the discussion on this privately through email on this issue.

One more question Kai... how to put so many fighters to london? Afir 6 should be a limit, even with airbase. How could you work arround this?

Isn't 8 the limit with airbase? Honestly i don't know how many fighters are there in London at the moment :)

I'm pretty sure, its even more than 8 :crazyeye:

I'm pretty sure, its even more than 8 :crazyeye:

Oh ok, I think I know what I've done. Foreign aircraft doesn't count to the limit and when I airlift Aussie aircraft to London, it can exceed the limit. When they are then gifted to Britain, the total number of British aircraft in London would exceed 8.

Limit is four plus four (for Airport) for cities and four for a Four... erm, Fortress. ;)

(Sorry, I just had to spell that out)

However, this does not hold true for cities that belong to you vassals, or to civilizations that you have open borders with. For example, Britain could put 8 British fighters into London, but at the same time have 10 Australian and 10 South African fighters there (in fact there is not even the 8-per-civ-limit in that case, save for the civ owning the city).

Anyway, I just got the turn from Fandazma, and will start to play as soon as I get home from work (in abut 6-7 hours, I guess). I should be able to send my turn tonight... middle eastern production is measly anyway, so I doubt I get to move around many new units / new production orders. The only thing that takes time is to restart the game six times since I cannot consecutively play the turns without the game crashing (still haven't found a solution to this).

Best Regards,
Martin

Looks rather like bug than a feature


:hammer: buguser... :lol:

Turn sent to Russia

Limit is four plus four (for Airport) for cities and four for a Four... erm, Fortress. ;)

(Sorry, I just had to spell that out)

However, this does not hold true for cities that belong to you vassals, or to civilizations that you have open borders with. For example, Britain could put 8 British fighters into London, but at the same time have 10 Australian and 10 South African fighters there (in fact there is not even the 8-per-civ-limit in that case, save for the civ owning the city).

Anyway, I just got the turn from Fandazma, and will start to play as soon as I get home from work (in abut 6-7 hours, I guess). I should be able to send my turn tonight... middle eastern production is measly anyway, so I doubt I get to move around many new units / new production orders. The only thing that takes time is to restart the game six times since I cannot consecutively play the turns without the game crashing (still haven't found a solution to this).

Best Regards,
Martin

I do have the same "crash unless restart" trouble as you do. I suspect my computer is running out of memory when reloading the next civ save. If you find a solution I would be happy to know about :)

I do have the same "crash unless restart" trouble as you do. I suspect my computer is running out of memory when reloading the next civ save. If you find a solution I would be happy to know about :)

I have the same problem, but have just got used to it now. This link may allow you to explore a fix, as it allocates more memory than standard.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=224178

I have the turn.

May take another 24 hours before I can play ... I am working away. I have my laptop with me which is fine for playing regular PBEMs but its totally hopeless trying to run GEM.

Sorry guys ... have been delayed and i'm not now getting home until late Friday night so realistically gonna be Saturday morning (UK time) before I can play.

Tried to play last night on my laptop ... it protested severely, then crashed :sad:

No Problem :-) You cannot possibly delay the second set of turns as long as the first one eventually took - so I guess we are all used to some waiting-time now.

I just wanted to let all of you know that my ability to take another turn within the next seven days will probably be limited, as I might be occupied attending to a visitor.

However, having just taken my turn, I do not quite expect for the next turn to arrive within that timespan anyway, so probably it will not matter - I just posted to be sure.

Best Regards,
Martin

I dont mind any delay. I think we all know this game is no "quicky" and very special in several manners.

1) turncycle is slow
2) each turn can bring a surprise
3) each turn is action
4) moving itself takes long expenditure of time for the person who does

for "quickplay" if have another game running...

I just sat down to take a look at the turn and noticed something strange (which I really should have noticed on the first turn).

I started the game with open borders with Nationalist China.

I can understand having open borders at the start with other nations of your team, such as Communist China and Mongolia in my case, but why Nationalist China ?

In a game which is supposed to be FFA, I can, if I want, declare war on France, Netherlands and Greece, yet I cannot even cancel the open borders agreement with Nat China which is part of the same team, meaning I could possibly be at war with 3 nations of a 4 nation team while I can do nothing about Nat China :crazyeye:

I just sat down to take a look at the turn and noticed something strange (which I really should have noticed on the first turn).

I started the game with open borders with Nationalist China.

I can understand having open borders at the start with other nations of your team, such as Communist China and Mongolia in my case, but why Nationalist China ?

In a game which is supposed to be FFA, I can, if I want, declare war on France, Netherlands and Greece, yet I cannot even cancel the open borders agreement with Nat China which is part of the same team, meaning I could possibly be at war with 3 nations of a 4 nation team while I can do nothing about Nat China :crazyeye:

Russia start with open border with Nat China because Russia was helping China in the war with Japan historically. Remember that you had a fighter located in China at the beginning? If the border is not set to be open, the fighter cannot be located there.

But open border is independent to the warring status. If you really want to declare war with China, you can do so at anytime. And you can also be at war with France and remain at peace with China. A lot of players have also similar situation.

How can I declare war when I cannot even cancel the open borders ?

The only option on the diplomacy screen besides trading is to cancel existing agreements. I've tried cancelling the open borders and it will not let me.

I understand the real life relationship with Nat China, but in a FFA game, you should be albe to cancel this if you wish.

just press Alt (or ctrl? I can't remember which) and right click on the name on the player list on the right. If it is allowed to, you should be able to declare war with that player immediately.

Sent to MarkyParky.

Not to sure why I cannot cancel an open borders or declare war from within the diplomacy screen but can declare war from the player list.

Dazz, Marky said he hasn't received your turn :(

Ok ... I've resent.

Should it really take two days to realise you haven't received the turn ? Had he emailed me directly it could have been resent a lot sooner.

That is a problem. This issue has happened quite frequently and every time I have to send emails to the individuals to find it out.

So guys, please check your email and this thread regularly and keep everyone up to date.

Or even better: Each received turn-email should be answered by a "received" mail. Or sent the mails with this acknowledgment-flag... there are a lot of options. In any way the both successive players should ensure the turn transmisson was done successfully.

Any of those ideas would be good.

I'm considering sending the turns with 'request receipt' flagged ... I still don't know if Marky received the resend - no confirmation either by post or email.

Marky has received your file. I asked him via email. He also promised to check this thread daily from now on.

But I don't know whether he has completed his turn yet or not, and whether the turn is in his hand or already passed to the next.

I also think we should either send an email to acknowledge, or even better, to post another message here to indicate he has received the file and when would he expect to finish the turn. This will allow everyone to keep up to date.

The problem is of course, whether or not everyone remember to do so.