I have completed my "entry" into GOTM10, a One City Challenge game that I hope will be the lowest scoring victory in this month's competition. The report is hosted at my Civ3 website; a link to it is available here (http://www.kalikokottage.com/civ3/sullla/games.html). While you're there, you might be interested to look around the site I've been building recently, since there's a lot there. I won't say exactly what happened in the game, but will instead let this picture speak for itself. :)

http://www.kalikokottage.com/civ3/sullla/GOTM10love.jpg

Love reading these accounts

Ive been particularly looking forward to reading this one. I've tried a OCC on this map several times. I have no difficulty in getting under your score. My 'little' problem that I havent quite cracked yet is in getting to 20k before someone else wins!

Wow - that was some science city.
Just goes to show that good Civ players can do well in ANY kind of challenge.
Phil and I will have to have a rethink. There MUST be something we do well at......

Time to write a OCC guide ?

Great play and great read. I had considered the One City Challenge, as it was an excellent position for such a strategy.

Your first move was the crucial one.

Well I had one more OCC go and followed your opening research / build strategy - although placed Paris one square away from you - on coast and on river of course.

Won with 20k culture in 2014! Score 274. Just shows how low you can go!

The fact that I took longer was more a reflection of the fact that I'm not as good as you are - especially at trading which is what I spent most of the game doing!

City was on 60 culture per turn for ages, then 67 near end (not sure why it increased. )

When Apollo predicted 2015 finish at about 1800 I thought I had no chance but raging world wars slowed everyone down. UN was built 3 turns before finish but no votes ever held. Maybe I could have held off but was so relieved to win that I didnt think to try to extend. I thought someone was bound to launch at any time.

Thanks for the tips.Sulla.
If we ever get this one in the tournament, I'll know how to tackle it. It IS nail-biting though.

Now I *really* want to try a OCC! :) But, how'd you survive with just one spearman defending the city? No one even declared war on you?

Nope - the fact that youre trading constantly just to get enough luxuries to stay out of trouble keeps everybody civil I think.

Sulla was much better than I and managed to get more wonders so had more culture per turn.

Obviously he overcooked it - I missed a few he got but finished before 2050. I doubt if anyone else could hit that slot between 2020 and 2050 with any precision.

It DOEs make for an amazingly one the edge nail biting game. The first time I played, I just swept the board until sure of winning then cut back - score way too high.

After seeing what Sulla managed I cut my winning score to 274. Obviously I cant submit to GOTM but I'll bet no-one gets under that with a winning game (2014 save avilable if you're interested!)

The real problem was fightng off the barbarians!

Originally posted by col
Won with 20k culture in 2014! Score 274. Just shows how low you can go!

Hey, nicely done! :D I knew it would be possible to win at a later date and thus achieve a lower score (444 of my 581 points were from end-of-game bonus), but it's really hard to deliberately put fewer culture in a city than you can. I could have been close to 100 culture/turn at the end if I had built a research lab and not sold off my library and university. And the AI was actually running UN votes and approaching a domination victory in my game (Russia), so it was about time to end the game anyway. And, like you said, getting an earlier finish date means that I did a "better" game, although that's not the case when trying to reduce score!

You can't submit the game of course, seeing as how you had already played the map (and followed my build strategy). I considered the tile one space further up the river and I liked it better, but oftentimes those space seem to be on the coast and actually are not. Rather than gamble with this one, I just went for the sure thing. Hope you had fun, and realize that OCC games are really not that scary at all! ;)

Originally posted by Chieftess
Now I *really* want to try a OCC! :) But, how'd you survive with just one spearman defending the city? No one even declared war on you?

One thing that most players don't realize is that if you are much weaker than the other civs, the AI will largely leave you alone. Unlike a human, who would instantly kill the civ to claim all those wonders in a city, the AI will instead leave the player alone as long as he or she does not do something stupid - like refusing a demand for tribute (always pay). As long as you trade with everyone frequently and never break any deals, it is extremely unlikely that anyone will attack you. No one ever came close to attacking me in the game mentioned; what value would they get from killing such a city when I was such a valuable trading partner? If you are tiny and pose no threat, you will be left alone unless you do something to attract attention to yourself (the same holds true on Deity, by the way). In 3 Deity games and 3 OCC games, I have never been sneak attacked by the computer, even when incredibly outclassed in power. Treat them fairly, and you will be ignored. I can practically guarantee it. Trust me: OCC games only LOOK hard. On Regent and below they are very easy to win.

yup - no-one came near attacking me. Obviously you need to make sure you NEVER sign an MPP. I missed a couple of your wonders which is why I took longer. I learned a lot about trading too - and learned to check and trade luxuries every turn to see if I had problems there!

My furs regularly bought me 2 luxuries + cash!

Good learning game.

I was lucky that the other civs stayed fairly balanced and cut each other regularly so no-one was ever near dominating.

I am also going to try to play this game as well.

I noticed that if you had built your city 1 tile NW of your starting location, you would have had a much easier time winning the game. There are many more shields available, and you still would have had a coastal start for your wonders.

Originally posted by Barker
I noticed that if you had built your city 1 tile NW of your starting location, you would have had a much easier time winning the game. There are many more shields available, and you still would have had a coastal start for your wonders.

Yep, I know what you're talking about. Trouble is, I've founded cities in those kind of locations many a time - only to discover that the city is not on the coast at all. I have yet to discover a reliable way to tell whether a city is on the coast or not, so I went the safe route and put it in the sure location. I probably could have secured an extra wonder in the better location, and certainly could have gotten the UN (I could only pull about 70 shields from the location I had my city in). But the game was easy enough anyway, so I'm not complaining - and I wouldn't have had such an insanely high science output without all those coastal tiles to provide commerce. :)

I always press down <Ctr> + G to make sure that my city tile will allow me access to water. The only thing I could not be certain about is whether the water is an inland lake, or ocean.

I am currently in 370 AD and have built Granary, Temple, Library, Cathedral, Colloseum, Colossus, The Great Library, Oracle, and Lighthouse. I would like to suild Sistine Chapel, but no-one has researched Theology yet. :)

36 culture/turn - 1688total

Remember if you finish too soon, your score will be too high!!

Sulla, it is really quite simple. First of all, turn the grid on if it isn't already. I always have the grid on when building cities or improving terrain. If any of the 8 tiles adjacent to the one your settler is on is water (not freshwater - check terrain info to be sure it doesn't have any extra food) then the city will be on the coast. Note: Fish in freshwater produce 3 food under despotism.

I played this game yesterday for a cultural victory in 1918 AD with a final score of 571. Unfortunately, that was on a second attempt so I won't be submitting it. I missed the Great Library after completing the Oracle in my first try, and that pretty much kills any OCC.

Here are a few details from my game:

I first built a warrior and then a worker before building my temple. The two workers cleared the forests to speed production of the temple, then proceded to improve all of the terrain around Paris before joining the city as citizen's 7 and 8.

As I built the Great Library, I continued at near max science toward Monarchy. I prebuilt the Hanging Gardens with the Great Lighthouse, and entered a Golden Age with it. Keeping my science at 80%, I made a beeline for Chemistry while the other civs headed for Education. This gave me a two-tech lead when Education was discovered. I wouldn't use the Great Library any other way.

I kept up in science through most of the industrial age, and was the first civ to discover Combustion. I then sold university, library, cathedral and temple. I traded techs to move into the modern era, andset science to zero. I bought Fission for about 3800 gold (I had over 23000) as soon as it was available, and built the UN in only 12 turns.

After building the UN, something became rather obvious. If you want the lowest score, an OCC Diplomatic victory won't force you to win in the early 20th century. Today I will replay with this in mind. My goal is to get under 250 points. If I can make it last until 2050, it may even be less than 200... but that is seriously pushing it.

Glad you're enjoying it.

It started out of a bit of Anglo-Aussie rivalry between Phil Martin and I. But the more I thought about it, the more fun the idea was.

Sullla opened my eyes to the joys of OCC. I'd enjoyed OCC in Civ2 but couldnt see how to make it work in Civ3. Now that's a new string to my bow. Wish I'd known about it before vet 2-2!

Lowest score is much more nailbiting fun than milking a game for score that you KNOW you've won but still have many hours to go to completion.

Wow, what a game!

I was literally up all night playing this one. Would you believe an OCC Space Race Victory? Well, it wasn't far off. I lost in 1965, with my spaceship due to launch in 1992, one turn before I would have won a cultural victory.

Here is a list of all of the wonders built in Paris:

The Great Library 925 BC
The Hanging Gardens 370 BC
Copernicus's Observatory 960 AD
Newton's University 1130 AD
Theory of Evolution 1510 AD
United Nations 1874 AD
SETI Program 1936 AD

Notice that I did not build Sistine Chapel, or any other middle age cultural wonder. This was deliberate, and late in the game, I even regretted building the Hanging Gardens. It alone produced over 2000 cp, and was the main reason a cultural victory would have been reached in the 1990s. Without it, at least 40 more turns could have been played, delaying the cultural victory until at least 2030 AD.

Note the last wonder I built and check out the screenshot. Copernicus's + Newton's + SETI all in the same city with a Research Lab, now that is a real Super Science City.

Also note that the Hoover Dam is not in the list. I was about to begin construction on it when I realized that a Hydro Plant was a lot cheaper and doesn't carry any culture points with it. For an OCC, Hoover Dam is about as useless as the Pyramids or Sun Tzu's.

Here is a list of SS components and when they were built, or would have been built:

Apollo Program 1952
SS Docking Bay 1954
SS Cockpit 1958
SS Thrusters 1962
SS Engine, 8 turns (1970)
SS Stasis Chamber, 4 turns (1974)
SS Storage/Supply, 2 turns(1976)
SS Fuel Cells, 2 turns (1978)
SS Life Support System, 4 turns (1982)
SS Planetary Party Lounge, 2 turns (1984)
SS Exterior Casing, 8 turns (1992)
Cultural Victory in 1993 to be preceded by Space Race victory

I just might give this one more go, as for most of the industrial age I was at 80% science, with 20% luxury to keep my peeps happy. I never bothered to trade for luxurys, after all, I was 1 tech ahead until Radio, and accumulated over 35,000 gold since the AI would much rather buy tech than research it for themselves. I challenge anyone to an OCC Space Race victory on this or any other map. Good luck, and have a safe flight to Alpha Centauri :cool:

Edit: The Colossus was built in or around 1625 BC.

Sounds like a great game.

Now isnt that better than the usual boring dom / spaceship??

Originally posted by Mathias
Wow, what a game!

I was literally up all night playing this one. Would you believe an OCC Space Race Victory? Well, it wasn't far off. I lost in 1965, with my spaceship due to launch in 1992, one turn before I would have won a cultural victory.

Yep, the OCC games can be amazingly addictive. I always get the feeling, "Well I'll just play until this wonder completes... okay, well I'll stop after this one..." and so on. :)

Too bad that you lost the game; you could have held a UN vote and won that way when the other civs were getting close though. At least, that's what I would have done. It's entirely possible to win a spaceship victory in a OCC (it's been done before on Deity, albeit on earlier, easier versions of the game) but you cannot trade away the spaceship techs to the AI civs. That's the thing that prevented you from winning. If you had kept those techs jealously close and to yourself... you might have blasted off to the stars from your one city. :D

Originally posted by col
Nope - the fact that youre trading constantly just to get enough luxuries to stay out of trouble keeps everybody civil I think.
...
Obviously he overcooked it - I missed a few he got but finished before 2050. I doubt if anyone else could hit that slot between 2020 and 2050 with any precision.
...
After seeing what Sulla managed I cut my winning score to 274. Obviously I cant submit to GOTM but I'll bet no-one gets under that with a winning game (2014 save avilable if you're interested!)

282 in 2047 on my first try with GOTM X. Also my first attempt at OCC (my variant with 2-4 other single pop cities for support & resources). For instance, I put a city down by the 3 incense to give me something to trade...then used incense and gpt to help keep up in techs and make the closest civs happy with me. Prebuilt most wonders with my main city and then finished them quicker than the AI once I traded for the appropriate tech. Only one I really missed that I wanted was Newtons Univ...and had a close call with ToE. Germany decided to go to war with me in 1914 but my size 1 rubber/uranium resource city survived 2 panzers and I turned EVERYONE against them for gpt or tech. That kept the entire world at war for the last 120 turns and kept the AI in communism/low tech research. In the end, it was only Russia, the Iroquois, and me. I will try to attach a picture if I can figure out how.

It seems most people not aware that you can 'milk' an OCC by going into mobilization (lowers culture produced to half I think) or anarchy (stops culture produced completely). I would have finished around 1950 without milking (and selling my temple/col/cathedral/library/univ even earlier). It is EASY to hit the 2040-2050 range as long as another civ isn't going to win during that time with dom or space victory...and I'm assuming you built the UN to stop the possibility of AI diplo victory. Techs after fission (for UN) are not necessary for a 20K culture win.

My goal was to get below 500, so I am happy with my game. But I could have been around 250 if I had micro-managed a bit better. If we get a Monarch GOTM soon, I might try a combination of conquest, colonies, and space victory. Emp I can barely beat and I stink at Diety (not counting cheesy diplo win).

Cheers. :jump:
cas

No - I didnt get the UN - one problem with OCC is that sometimes you dont have a prebuild available! Another city can always build palace.

In my game (and Sulllas) someone else got the UN - prob through a GL - which makes it rather a nailbiting finish .... I never faced a vote - Sullla made it through one.

It seems most people not aware that you can 'milk' an OCC by going into mobilization (lowers culture produced to half I think) or anarchy (stops culture produced completely). I would have finished around 1950 without milking (and selling my temple/col/cathedral/library/univ even earlier). It is EASY to hit the 2040-2050 range as long as another civ isn't going to win during that time with dom or space victory...and I'm assuming you built the UN to stop the possibility of AI diplo victory. Techs after fission (for UN) are not necessary for a 20K culture win.

You can go even further towards milking the game.

Once you are assured of victory by culture, start drafting citizens, or go into communism and rush build some improvements. By the time you finish the game, you could have just 1 citizen left in the city.

It seems most people not aware that you can 'milk' an OCC by going into mobilization (lowers culture produced to half I think) or anarchy (stops culture produced completely). I would have finished around 1950 without milking (and selling my temple/col/cathedral/library/univ even earlier). It is EASY to hit the 2040-2050 range as long as another civ isn't going to win during that time with dom or space victory...and I'm assuming you built the UN to stop the possibility of AI diplo victory. Techs after fission (for UN) are not necessary for a 20K culture win.

You can go even further towards milking the game.
Once you are assured of victory by culture, start drafting citizens, or go into communism and rush build some improvements. By the time you finish the game, you could have just 1 citizen left in the city.

I think you guys are starting to take this thing a little too far in the wrong direction. Wasn't the idea behind the Lowest Scoring Challenge to be something fun to do in games, something that didn't involve endless milking or rushing the other civs to produce higher scores? I was intrigued by the idea as something fun to do in a game, since I enjoy OCC games, and because trying to get a low score was a new experience for me. For that reason I had no desire to go into mobilization to cut down my culture, and wouldn't have done so even if there was no threat of the AI civs winning. What you guys are starting to do now is to min/max this thing into the ground, trying to find every last way that score can be reduced by delaying victory as long as possible. And, to me at least, that's where the game stops being fun: at the point where it starts becomes a formula. Some of these posts are starting to espouse a sort of "reverse-milking" philosophy that I want no part in. I left the GOTM because I was bored with endless milking and kill-em-all gameplay. For your own sakes, don't do this with the lowest scoring challenge. Have fun with the game, and don't be concerned with endless min/maxing of numbers. In the end, I think you will enjoy the game more if you treat it as a game and not as a mathematical program designed to produce a certain result.

I agree with you wholeheartedly, Sulla.

I finished my own OCC game with a final score of 658 in 1890 AD.
I had alot of fun playing that game, and I learned quite a bit about good diplomatic strategy. I was able to constantly sell my own researched techs to the AI for lots of gpt.

I personally would not find it enjoyable to break the game down into mathematical formulas. I do not use mapstat to check for domination. I do not calculate the number of tiles that I own, and what my score could be. I do not calculate what year I will win a cultural victory. I just have fun playing the game.

I can't wait until multiplayer is out so that we can really have some fun using our strategies on real people. I believe it will be quite a serious adjustment to the way we currently play this game.

Sulla:

Thanks for a wonderful description of your game and turning me in a new direction. After milking a warlord and regent game for HoF which haven't beeen updated, forced into slash & burn Hun-like tactics, I was half way into Monarch doing the same and got fed up. Being able to concentrate on culture and taking on the world was a refreshing read.:goodjob:

Well done to all participants in the Lowest Score Victory challenge. Excellent to see a different kind of discussion.

Big tick to Sullu for an insight into a OCC strategy. The proof of your input can be seen by the number of replays of the GOTM after its reading.

Well done Matias for an almost OCC spaceship victory (Mental Note: scratch Cultural, Histograph, Spaceship....).

I was already well into a game similar to Col's with a grow then reduce strategy. Then I read Sulla's OCC write up on the "Sulllas Page" web site so I am trying for an alternate Low score Victory.

As for that gauntlet laying on the ground Col.... I got too carried away, what with being a peaceful expansionist normally,.... just trying a few skirmishes,...payback on several AI opponents,... I was UNBEATABLE!,... I rule the world,.. oooops! I still have a fair way to go (1880) and have got into the 2000's.

This challenge is informal and meant to be fun so anti-milking up and down is the aim.

PS. I will still be turning the GOTM09 results table upside down for a different view on things.

Sounds very similar to my game Phil.

Having read Sullla's account, I had another go and got down to a winning score of 274. Obviously I didnt submit it.

Sullla really lifted the challenge to a new level!

Off on holiday now cruising round the med for a couple of weeks.

Originally posted by col


Off on holiday now cruising round the med for a couple of weeks.

I will have a think about GOTM11 then;)

Originally posted by col
The real problem was fightng off the barbarians!

My submission will also be an OCC (not finished yet but no chance of losing except for very bad luck).

My major early problem was the barbarian uprising, with 16 horses comming to my city, 5 were killed attacking a spearman on a mountain on the way, 4 attacking a elite one in my 12 city behind river but SEVEN manage to pillage, taking 0 gold, destroying nothing but KILLING 7 populations. that was a major blow.

I had (and still have) lots of fun, refusing blackmail for people far away when asking too much (like a tech I only have), setting the whole world against them and watching the action :-) (poor Romans, Aztecs and now -hopefully- Germans..). that is my way of preventing an AI to dominate too much.

I have a question regarding the "rules" of OCC, I guess I am allowed to raze a city (I sent some UU (musket) to war to trigger GA and found an aztec city with spearman...) but now that you can abandon city, what do you thing about accepting a city flip and abandonning it immediatly (just to tech the AI not to settle close to grab your horses/luxury...).


comments ?

Jabah

Should be alright I guess, as long as you don't sell any improvements and disband the units.
In my game most neighbouring cities changed hands a couple of times so I ended up with a large grazing patch anyway. :)

I kept checking for encampments constantly (had many colonies which I wanted to protect) and never got any uprisings.

I didn't try for the lowest score btw, and achieved a cultural win in 1745 AD.

http://home.hccnet.nl/g.den.broeder/ribannah/Civilization/GOTM10_Victory.jpg

I think you guys are starting to take this thing a little too far in the wrong direction. Wasn't the idea behind the Lowest Scoring Challenge to be something fun to do in games, something that didn't involve endless milking or rushing the other civs to produce higher scores? I was intrigued by the idea as something fun to do in a game, since I enjoy OCC games, and because trying to get a low score was a new experience for me. For that reason I had no desire to go into mobilization to cut down my culture, and wouldn't have done so even if there was no threat of the AI civs winning. What you guys are starting to do now is to min/max this thing into the ground, trying to find every last way that score can be reduced by delaying victory as long as possible. And, to me at least, that's where the game stops being fun: at the point where it starts becomes a formula. Some of these posts are starting to espouse a sort of "reverse-milking" philosophy that I want no part in. I left the GOTM because I was bored with endless milking and kill-em-all gameplay. For your own sakes, don't do this with the lowest scoring challenge. Have fun with the game, and don't be concerned with endless min/maxing of numbers. In the end, I think you will enjoy the game more if you treat it as a game and not as a mathematical program designed to produce a certain result.

Wouldn't a HIGH scoring OCC make more sense? It would be the reverse of the 'lowest scoring' idea, but with only 1 city, you still would have scores at the bottom of the scoring list. When limited to one city there is no way your population and territory would be increasing fast/high enough to make up for the early win bonus you would be losing out on. This would be true on any map size. The early win bonus and your 1 city territory size and population would be consistant regardless of what map you play on. This is the opposite of when you normally try and achieve 'max score' by claiming 66% of the entire map.

Whenever you have a challenge or competition most players like playing the game for that very reason - competition. And in this case it is competition against others for (low) score. I guess it's human nature to like to have a competition to compare their game to others and the way to do this is by score. How else can you judge it? Whoever writes the best summary :rolleyes: ?

And players will do whatever it takes to get them the lowest/highest score to make them feel like they played a better game. Now, of course, there are limitations. Most don't re-load and 99% don't do blatant cheating like the person in the 'cheater' thread. But what about when you get to those grey areas that will get the player closer to his goal (in this case score) but would not make good game play sense?

I guess you could compare it to college football. If a team is up by 28 points in the fourth quarter, do they continue to ring up the score, even though the game is 'already won'? Of course they do, if they have/want a shot at a national championship. A 56-7 win is more impressive to the voters than a 35-7 win.

As it is now, alot of you could have scored even lower if you were allowed to build some more cities temporarily. When you know you are on pace for a culture win, build a bunch of cities all around your capital and as close to the capital as you can. Donate all these cities. Those cities will be taking up some/most of your territory. This will decrease the territory part of your score. Just refuse any city that wants to flip back.

And even with the high score OCC, you will have people trying to shave (formulas :rolleyes: ) 1 or 2 turns off to score a couple more points. Is trying to win 1 or 2 turns sooner any different than trying to 'milk' for a few more points? Is it any worse than micromanaging to squeeze 1 more shield/food/gold out of a city?

I think Bamspeady and Sulla made some good points. It would be logic to go for highest points but the for an OCC game. This might be a new competition: OCC with highest score.

You can use the same GOTM map as others but only with one city. No milking because early finish really scores the big points. Would be challanging as some finishers probaly end up only one or two points apart in stead of thousands.

Now for some questions (help needed here)
I tried to play an OCC on the GOTM X map but lost twice already
- first because diplo victory AI (ok **** happens)
- second because England ran me over with tanks

Before the second game I had a look at Sulla's game and as suggested I accepted every offer the AI put to me but got behind in tech after 1500 or so and could only trade in interval's (after generating enough gold) but this made everybody unhappy towards me. I tried giving them money but to no avail.
Any solutions?

MPF

Originally posted by Mathias
Wow, what a game!

I was literally up all night playing this one. Would you believe an OCC Space Race Victory? Well, it wasn't far off. I lost in 1965, with my spaceship due to launch in 1992, one turn before I would have won a cultural victory.

Here is a list of all of the wonders built in Paris:

The Great Library 925 BC
The Hanging Gardens 370 BC
Copernicus's Observatory 960 AD
Newton's University 1130 AD
Theory of Evolution 1510 AD
United Nations 1874 AD
SETI Program 1936 AD

Notice that I did not build Sistine Chapel, or any other middle age cultural wonder. This was deliberate, and late in the game, I even regretted building the Hanging Gardens. It alone produced over 2000 cp, and was the main reason a cultural victory would have been reached in the 1990s. Without it, at least 40 more turns could have been played, delaying the cultural victory until at least 2030 AD.

Note the last wonder I built and check out the screenshot. Copernicus's + Newton's + SETI all in the same city with a Research Lab, now that is a real Super Science City.

Also note that the Hoover Dam is not in the list. I was about to begin construction on it when I realized that a Hydro Plant was a lot cheaper and doesn't carry any culture points with it. For an OCC, Hoover Dam is about as useless as the Pyramids or Sun Tzu's.

Here is a list of SS components and when they were built, or would have been built:

Apollo Program 1952
SS Docking Bay 1954
SS Cockpit 1958
SS Thrusters 1962
SS Engine, 8 turns (1970)
SS Stasis Chamber, 4 turns (1974)
SS Storage/Supply, 2 turns(1976)
SS Fuel Cells, 2 turns (1978)
SS Life Support System, 4 turns (1982)
SS Planetary Party Lounge, 2 turns (1984)
SS Exterior Casing, 8 turns (1992)
Cultural Victory in 1993 to be preceded by Space Race victory

I just might give this one more go, as for most of the industrial age I was at 80% science, with 20% luxury to keep my peeps happy. I never bothered to trade for luxurys, after all, I was 1 tech ahead until Radio, and accumulated over 35,000 gold since the AI would much rather buy tech than research it for themselves. I challenge anyone to an OCC Space Race victory on this or any other map. Good luck, and have a safe flight to Alpha Centauri :cool:

Nice tip I see nobody use. If you are competing with the AI for a space race victory you can always win. How you might ask;
Use your spy, check out opponents cities and locate those that are building spaceship components. Remember the city (preferably those with large components as SS engine or outer casing). Monitor builing progress and when 3 turns to go use spy to sabbotage production. Always use high chance of succes. Works in about 90% of the times (thats why you do it 3 turns before finish so you can have one or two more cracks at this if needed). After the sabbotage he has to start over .:p . Giving you extra time of course. As the AI is committed to spaceship he will rarely attack because it might unleash a great war which of course will influence the needed peace to build its space ship. All you need is a big cash supply. Nice huh!

MPF

Pyramids and Hoover Dam are important to build because that means the AI won't get them.
I'm positive I would have won the space race if not for the cultural victory that stood in the way just after we discovered Radio. ;)
With a Super Science City that's also producing up to 122 shields who could have challenged me?

Finally was able to complete an OCC and win. Phew, still need to refine my skills on this. Managed to get a great deal of ancient wonders.

Started off with Great Library, then Colossus (nothing to build anyway) and then the piramids witch triggered my GA making it possible to get the sixtine chapel (ahh yes, 6 culture per turn and a lot of happy faces). Because of a major war was able to sneak build the Bach Cathedral before anyone got around to it. That probaly clinched the cultural victory.

Love the screen shot when you win, so much love :love:

Originally posted by Ribannah
Pyramids and Hoover Dam are important to build because that means the AI won't get them.

The Pyramids, maybe - but the Colossus is more important if you want to lead, or at least keep up in, the tech race. If you can't build the Colossus (due to being inland) then you should probably build the Oracle first. The Oracle costs less, provides the same number of cultural points as the Pyramids, and makes one more citizen content. If you don't have access to fresh water, neither of these will give you much help.

Hoover Dam, however, is not important. I've heard rumors that the AI rarely builds factories, and thus would not benefit from any hydro plant, free or otherwise. There probably isn't any reason not to build it, though, except to avoid the cultural points it provides.


MPF, I didn't build the Intelligence Agency. I saved it for a prebuild on SETI and UN, as well as Apollo and spacecraft components, so I couldn't sabbotage production. I also noticed in your quote of my post that I omitted the Colossus from my list. It was completed around 1625 BC.

Yes, I couldn't build the Colossus as I founded Paris inland, so the Oracle was indeed my first in 2110 BC. It was easy enough to stay ahead anyway, and I never had any shortage of money. :)

I won't be able to win the lowest challenge, I won in 1906 with 605 pts.

Since my last post, I had fun starting World Coalition against whoever was stupid enough to try to blackmail me or refuse to welcome my spy : German and then Russians. I even participate actively is razing probably 10 russians cities around me to try to get a leader :lol:
(which I never manage to have :cry: ).

I have a question anyway, here is the list of all my cultural building, and for long period of time, especially after industrialisation (more precisely after building factory/coal plant/universal suffrage) I had nothing to build so I was building vast armies (still earning 100+ gold with 100% research) to "play" with the other civs. What were you doing at that time with your production ?


-3900 P. Palace
-2030 G. W. Colossus
-1700 C. I. Temple
-875 G. W. Great Library
-730 C. I. Library
-190 C. I. Cathedral
350 G. W. Great Lighthouse
420 C. I. Colosseum
700 G. W. Sistine Chapel
840 C. I. University
1020 G. W. Copernicus's Observatory
1200 G. W. Magellan's Voyage
1405 G. W. Shakespeare's Theater
1620 G. W. UniversalSuffrage
1670 S. W. Intelligence Agency
1762 G. W. Theory of Evolution
1782 G. W. Hoover Dam
1902 C. I. Research Lab


Attached is the situation, notice all the nice forests I planted to slow anyone who wanted to pass around without a RoP (and had to avoid my bunkers) and all the empty space around where the former russians cities were.
.


Jabah

Originally posted by MPF
I think Bamspeady and Sulla made some good points. It would be logic to go for highest points but the for an OCC game. This might be a new competition: OCC with highest score.

You can use the same GOTM map as others but only with one city. No milking because early finish really scores the big points. Would be challanging as some finishers probaly end up only one or two points apart in stead of thousands.


Perhaps it is just me but I still prefer the "how low can you go" instead of trying to strike it rich. OK so you have the milking issue of people trying to win as close to 2050 as possible. Personlly I don't keep that good track of exactly how high my culture was, how much I gained per turn or anything like that. I just played. I didn't sell my tempel, librarby or anything like that. I even boosted my population in what became the end cause I needed cash badly. So for that I got a higher score than I would have if I had held back.

I'd rather see a "how low can you go" with rules preventing milking, selling structures and so forth. Instead just playing the game and finishing as soon as possible.

I'd rather see a "how low can you go" with rules preventing milking, selling structures and so forth. Instead just playing the game and finishing as soon as possible.

That would work in theory only, not reality. How do you determine if someone purposely milked the game, or just doesn't have the skills to finish early? You could try and implement rules to discourage milking, but there is always a work-around. The person who purposely held off on building wonders is an example.

Many of you are playing this OCC just for fun and not worrying too much about how low of a score you can get as the OCC is a whole new experience for you. But what about in a month or two, when you guys start becoming pros at this OCC thing? Then more and more of you will start finding more and better ways of holding off on getting victory until later in the game.

Originally posted by Bamspeedy
That would work in theory only, not reality. How do you determine if someone purposely milked the game, or just doesn't have the skills to finish early? You could try and implement rules to discourage milking, but there is always a work-around. The person who purposely held off on building wonders is an example.


True, not a perfect system or idea at all. I guess the only way is rules and guidelines. Sure you can't force people to build if they don't want to.

I'm not a super civ3 player, not in gotm or in anyother way. but I can manage. I finished my occ gotmX in 1956 or was it 1958. That is not early compared to some of the others. I did that cause I'm not as good as them and I made several stupid misstakes not to mention getting the short end of the stick in a few wonder production cascades.


Many of you are playing this OCC just for fun and not worrying too much about how low of a score you can get as the OCC is a whole new experience for you. But what about in a month or two, when you guys start becoming pros at this OCC thing? Then more and more of you will start finding more and better ways of holding off on getting victory until later in the game.

Well GOTM lasted for 9-10 games before it has started to dull over requireing something new to be tried for a couple of games. Then i might go back trying to conquere the world again (even thou I am really bad at it).

I guess it has to do with playstyle. I don't use any schemes or "tactics" when I play, I play normally and I play for fun. I don't try and "hold of" or milking for a few more points. Usually I find the games to be more fun in the beginning so in the end I just want to finish so I can start again. Not drag on the end forever (or the late 2040's).

Perhaps one will try and make a really highscoreing OCC game instead. Or change it to be a 5CC or whatever.

Just having alittle change from time to time would really spiff the game up a bit instead of doing the same thing over and over again.

In CIV II, your score included something that is lacking in CIV III: each wonder you controlled added points to your score. What this really needs is some method of rewarding a player for building wonders. Not just some fixed number of points either, but give points based on when the wonder was built. For example, 1/10 of a point per year before 2050 for ancient wonders (400 points for building the Oracle in 1950 BC). Midieval wonders give 1/4 of a point per year (400 points for Sistine Chapel in 450 AD). For industrial wonders, you get 2/3 point per year (400 points for Theory of Evolution in 1450 AD). Finally, a full 2 points per year for any modern wonder you manage to build before your cultural victory (400 points for United Nations in 1850 AD). This would definitely make OCC even more interesting, and could possibly be implemented in all games.

Well I have to admit that the OCC game was more fun than I thought. It was like milking in the beginning because it was just so "wonderful" but the politics at the end was interesting. I hate giving into demands unless they are on the light side so I had a few wars, fortresses are a good thing in OCC. Finished in 1882AD with a cultural victory.

CB

PS. I didn't know we could use colonies, maybe next time.

It was very frustrating to participate in the GOTMs, because of how difficult it was for me to break away from other things in my life to actually try to complete a game within 30 days. :( Now Sulla has shown me a way to be able to (possibly) consistently finish a GOTM and submit it. :)

I wasn't going to attempt GOTM X, due to my schedule this month. But last Friday I loaded it up to try a OCC. Wow! After only 7 hours in the game I'm halfway through the Industrial period, keeping slightly ahead of the AI's. I'm going to try for Spaceship, but should be able to fall back on Cultural or Diplomatic.

In addition to being something different, the OCC is a way for fairly busy people to participate in the GOTMs. Perhaps OCC submittals could be astericked or highlighted in the GOTM results, if they become popular.

Neat stuff... so much more rewarding than 1000 years of milking. With only one city and such small score differentials is it possible to play GoM and OCC? Knowing where goodie huts are located from previous play has minimum impact on score.. skill at trading seems much more important.... I have never been able to keep the other civs civil.

If a city flips to you, can you accept it and abandon it same turn to get benefit of free defender?

Again hats off to all those who have done well at this variation of Civ 3.:goodjob:

I would say no, you cannot accept a culture flip, even if you abandon it immediately. Having that city for just one turn certainly has a minimal effect on the final score, but having that city not there for the rest of the game is a bit different. Your border will expand into the area where the city was, and that would affect your score to a greater extent.

And that 'free defender'? Well, to be quite frank, it is more likely a liability, as the AI might see that much stronger unit as a threat. If you do need a bigger defense, your best unit, be it Musketman or Mech Inf, is no more than two turns away. For me, if I'm not forced into an early war by Montezuma, my spearmen will hold down the fort right on into the modern times.

If the city is larger, your score will be higher & the point is to get a low score. Abandoning the city the same turn should not affect your score very much.. area gained* years. The AI parks next to an incense colony and it evaporates. AI dumb enough to risk CF should pay the price.

I don't care about the result in score, I like lebensraum. Is there a rule about it??

The goal for this particular game was to get a lower score. OCC in general does not imply any specific goal, except to win with one and only one city. Other OCC goals could be highest score (i.e. fastest finish) or space race victory.

As far as rules go, I don't think there is any specific outline of what is or isn't allowed in OCC. If we were to compile a list of rules for OCC, I would vote that accepting a culture flip be disallowed.

Regarding the effect accepting a flip and abandoning the city has on your score... If you 'rebuff the rebels' and let the opposing civ maintain control of the city, that civ will own the territory around that city. On the other hand, if you take the city and abandon it, your cultural border will extend into the now empty space, increasing your territory. More territory means higher score, so if you accept and abandon the city, your score will be higher than it would be if you do not accept the flip.

Originally posted by Ribannah
Should be alright I guess, as long as you don't sell any improvements and disband the units.
In my game most neighbouring cities changed hands a couple of times so I ended up with a large grazing patch anyway. :)

I kept checking for encampments constantly (had many colonies which I wanted to protect) and never got any uprisings.

I didn't try for the lowest score btw, and achieved a cultural win in 1745 AD.




Congrats on an unbeilveably early win! Makes my full game attempt win an 1888 with 20000pts. nowhere close. An OCC actually should do better as you can start on the first wonder quicker, and don't suffer the built settler delay. Large city = faster wonder building. I wonder what game 11 will bring.

If I win something with the GOTM, it will be in the fastest category. I have zero desire to milk the game to death.

OK, I finished my first full gotm10 attempt today and decided to give the OCC a go. I didn't try for lowest score and kept my city in WLCD from size 6. That with no luxuries. I did select a terrible spot for the city where I could have as little territory control as possible.

I only built:

temple
collosus
library
great libirary
hanging gardens
colloseum
univercity
Sistene chapel
js bach cathedral

then I set to wealth and pay per turn gold bribes to everyone.

I built nothing else apart from harbor, market place and a bank.

I traded for no luxaries and had none.

I won in 1985 with 358 points. I could have delayed till later to cut the 150 points early bonus, but I have just finished a milked Gotm and didn't feel like it.

All the other guys were figting. The Romans and Aztechs were dead, with the Russians to follow. (had three cities left) The American, Iroquios and Germans had about equal territory, but no UN vote took place.

Some people are so good at this they can predict early what they need to win. Some use programs to determine domination, others to calculate years to end. If you want to be a purist forget the score and make it a race pure and simple... whoever gets to the finish line first wins. Ranking would simply be the years difference from the first place finisher.
For people who play GOM for high score then OCC already know where to go for goodies & stuff. Anti-milkers will find sites that do not have luxuries to keep their citizens miserable and growth slow.... I kept Paris small by not building hospital... is that milking? Too many variables ... too many rules that could be broken.
If you want to compete on strategy,
Rule 1. Build on starting site in 4000. BC
Rule 2. No alteration of the Civ 3 game.
Rule 3. Finish First.
Rule 4. Have fun

My 3 (CDN) cents. = 2 US on a good day

For defensive reasons, my settler crawled up the hill overlooking the Seine. After 50 years of surveying the site, Paris was founded in 3950. From this height we spotted two small encampments nearby. Our workers began clearing the forest to prepare lumber for our barracks. 250 years later our workers' descendents figured out it would make more sense to use a road to move our timber to Paris. My advisors were not allowed to waste gold on ridiculous notions of turning rocks into "wheels". Hard labour prevents them from getting too fat. The road completed, they began to mine the area. Can't ever get too rich. From 3500 to 3450, news of our city finally spread and the Bulgars pulled up stakes and moved to Paris. The Vandals, after showing us the proper way to bury our dead, left for new grazing land. Being down-river from a growing city does have its drawbacks.
Had to bribe the Bulgars with a third of my income for entertainment before they agreed to settle down. In 3200 a temple was completed on the foundation of my abandoned barracks to keep them out of the taverns on one day a week anyways.
In 3100 our first recruit set out to explore. His grandchildren approached a group of celts in 2710 and convinced a warrior of dubious skills to help him search.... and so on. TBC

My OCC game is a thrilling experience. I've got a Space Race victory.:goodjob: And without satobaging AI space ships!:lol:
Although it was because I didn't build the Intelligence Agency. I had so much fear about that, if I plant a spy and am caught, I would promptly be extinguished.

In the modern age it is very hard to play. Techs come slow because the Colossus bonus has disappeared. I researched Computers for 27 turns and Nuclear Power for another 26. Other techs are bought from the AI.

I use:
Computers to exchange Fission, Rocketry and Space Flight
Nuclear Power to exchange Superconductor, Synthetic Fibers

other techs are bought at the 5th civ price. It was surprisingly low. Only costed me about 15000 gold pieces for Ecology, Satellites and The Laser.

However, knowing the AI could complete the ship ANY time but can't know WHEN they can is a big thrilling experience. In my last few turns when they have got the Laser earlier than me, yet keeping it too expensive to buy, I was always waiting for the screen " You have suffered a humiliating loss." Fortunately, no such appeared. :D

The remaining OCC challenges would be Conquest and Diplomacy. Both is ridiculously hard to play. For diplomacy you had to keep two civs alive and smaller than you:eek: before guaranteeing one of the votes;) . Conquest? Maybe, huh, ICBMs would do the job?:nuke: :cool:

Well done Lawrence on a Space Race OCC GOTM victory.

Originally posted by Lawrence
The remaining OCC challenges would be Conquest and Diplomacy. Both is ridiculously hard to play. For diplomacy you had to keep two civs alive and smaller than you:eek: before guaranteeing one of the votes;) . Conquest? Maybe, huh, ICBMs would do the job?:nuke: :cool:

For a Diplomatic you could always get the UN first and as an active trader and not a warmonger, secure the vote with a spotless reputation : Secretary-General Joan :queen:

Conquest would require a smaller map on a lower level. Not that it would be impossible (never say never) but without a good tech lead and the time to use it against a larger enemy. :spank:

This has got me thinking. If you had 50 Cav/Tanks against an AI which is constantly at war with each other (see Cracker's GOTM Spolier write-up) and hence behind in defensive units then roll them out. Problem is that you would have to keep going to prevent another Civ filling the gaps.

When is the next Small Cheiftain GOTM:lol:

Yes, I was wrong about the UN thing. I thought that "The largest or second largest country in the world" is one of the prerequisites of being the leader of the UN.

It is very hard to finish up ALL AIs in limited time. My best experience was using up my whole army of Modern Armors to kill America in 1 turn( by Right of Passage Abuse ), I think it would cost 50 Modern Armors while many of the defenders are infantry/riflemen. In OCC maps you can not take a big tech lead, my lead is one tech in all ages except modern. In modern, because of Colossus depletion and ridiculously high research cost, no lead is possible( at least to me ). And outnumber the AI while you have only one city? Doubtful. So what I thought is that you can build a lot of ICBMs and get them all out at one time. After :nuke: , your land troops can conquer.

I think the idea of a OCC conquest challenge is good. I just tried it on the GOTM10 map. Though the large maps really makes it tough hitting both sides of the map simultaneously, difficult, I got tired after killing both the Aztechs and Russians for the third time! Respawning must be turned off for this to be fun.

Would it be allowed to use a captured city to create an army before abondoning it? In effect that would be the same as excepting a culture flip before abandoning it.

Hats off to Lawrence with a OCC space victory. That must have really been a tough game!

I replayed the OCC GOTM, this time on a better location. I found that while the AI is staying peaceful, it was very diificult to stay ahead in science. That with both the science wonders. Do you buy all the science? I end up losing to a UN vote. There was only one war in the game with everybody turning against Germany. I only lasted 200 years before Germany was wiped off the fave of the earth.

The OCC is still a new concept to the CIV3 GOTM so the "rules" as such are not dedfined.

If this as to become a regular feature of the GOTM rather than the informal challenge this month then I would suggest a poll to determine what exploites/rule should be allowed.

I have not been involved with the CIV2 forums so do not know what their OCC award is based on.

IMO a CIV3 OCC should be based on the existing GOTM rules with a choice of the following additional rule options:
1 "Pure OCC" - All city flips must be rejected and captured cities razed.
2. "Benefitial Razing" - Flips and captured cities are accepted for the duration of your turn to enable the selling of structures and other benefits of having the city prior to abandoning it.
3. "Cultural OCC" - Allow the growth of your OCC empire by culture flipping
4. "Conquest OCC" - Allow the growth of your empire by conquest.
5. "Who needs Settlers OCC" - Flipped and captured cities are allowed but not a settler is to be built.

Once a definative set of rules are outlined then the victory conditiuons can be determine (eg. Fastest OCC Victory, Fastest Conquest, Highest OCC Score, Lowest OCC Score;), etc.)

Are enough players are interested in an alternative GOTM challenge to kick this off?

I researched most of the techs. The path I used is as follows:

Bronze working->40 turn Mathematics->40 turn Currency->Use Great Library->Astronomy->Chemistry->Physics->Theory of Gravity->Magnetism->Medicine->Sanitation->Steam Power->Electricity->Scientific Method->The Corporation->Radio->Steel->Combustion->Mass Production->Motorized Transporation->Computers->Nuclear Power.

Constant income rate is 0%tax-90%science-10%luxury.

I sell every tech I researched to the AI for per turn deals. After Middle Age you can get a lot of them to offset the research costs.

I didn't research till after my G Library became obsolete. Got to Theory of Evolution first and am makig lots of gold selling $ trading.... oops this is my third attempt and went for a coastal location away from the river.. Colossus is very important... How can you tell if the coast is there if you can'r reload? To keep people honest I think city should be built in 4000 BC.

Had a strange occurence last game. Made a deal to pay 15 gold per turn for democracy. Had 0 gold left. In anarchy had no income but warning that my treasury was low. That other civ must have been mad not getting his gold and none of my improvements were sold off.

How do you think to supply an army for the conquest with only one city? It's very expensive.:confused:

It's difficult. That's the whole idea.

My attempt on the GOTM10 was rellatively successful. I research horseback riding and then went zero science.

Most of your money comes from babarian camps! I hit the AI early and took the Aztech the first time with the very under estimated war chariot! Just for them to respawn. Damn.

I got world map and all science from them. Get to see all babarian camps!

Attacked the Russians and American and Germans with about 25 horsemen. Most of them elite trained on babarian camps.

The idea is to hit early and hit hard! All the time!

Spearmen is send to all iron and even horse resources on the map! Once you control that, you will only face archers and spearmen. (Frequently used deity strat) I can kill all AI on monarch and even Emperor level using this tactic. The problem with the OCC is that you need to raise all captured cities. You thus leave enough space for respawns, which means you will kill them for ever and they will just keep on coming back! Basically an unwinnable situation. That why I stopped with the GOTM10 map. I just kept on killing the same opponent. No more fun after a while.:)

I think that OCC will take off to fill time between GOTM's. I find it very educational. I have played a lot of CIV3 and thought I had it all figured out. Since playing the OCC and reading some threads on it, I have learned a lot of new things. Also I found Sullla's epic postings very helpful. I didn't know you could trade away your own resources!:confused:

Iwould like to see the OCC becoming moer of a competition with fixed rules and variations as Phillip_Martin has posted. Winning should not be about score, but rather the year you have managed!

One thing not mentioned. Would you be allowed to sue for cities when negotiating peace? I can get rid of more than halve of the AI cities this way!

Well I just finished my third attempt. Wound up with 14,000 gold and the UN. I could not win the vote though. I had gone to war against one of the other small civs to get a great leader for rushing the UN but the other large civs all voted for themselves even though everyone was gracious. Cultural victory with 456 points without milking down.

I tried to give Elizabeth incentive to vote for me but she turned down all in the illustration in favour of 100 gold:

I started a new thread for one city conquerors.

Hi Mathias,

How did you manage to stay ahaed in modern times? I had no problems to stay ahead of the AI untill I head to research computers and fissions, but after that (at the same location of Paris) it took me 40 turns for every new tech.

was there constant war among the AI?

Ronald

I wasn't ahead in tech in mordern times. America was leading the tech race. There was constant war for much of the 1800s, so some of the civs were behind in tech. I was able to buy and sell some modern techs, and kept myself in second place in the tech race.

Alright, I am very happy about OCC!! As I stated earlier, I wasn't even going to download GOTM 10, but after reading Sulla's post, decided to try it as a OCC. I only needed about 13 hours, compared to my normal 60-70 hours to complete the game. Very nice!

I was trying for a Spaceship Victory, but I accumulated too much culture. I actually sold off my Temple, Coliseum, and Cathedral (with the Sistine Chapel, no less!) to reduce the rate of cultural increase. I relied on trading for Luxuries to keep my people under control. This bought me about 40 more turns, at the time I did it. Later on, shortly after entering the Modern Era, I sold off my Library, University and Research Lab to further reduce my culture rate of expansion. (I had Copernicus' Observatory, Newton's University and the SETI Project.) This increased my game about 10 more turns. Sadly, it wasn't enough. I was "forced" into a City Cultural victory in 1983, about 5 turns before I finished researching my last Spaceship components, and maybe 7 turns before finishing the spaceship itself.

My strategy was to enter the Modern Age ahead of the AI civs, research Computers, then Fission (building SETI and the UN), and then research Nuclear Power and the Laser, using Computers and Fission to trade for AI techs. I accomplished the first part, but the looming cultural victory forced me to rely on the AI civs to do more research than I originally planned. I had to drag them into the Modern Era, practically giving them certain Techs, just to have a chance at the Spaceship. (Next time, I might restrict my cultural improvements earlier.) I spied on the Iroqouis (my largest competitor) and they had completed 0 ss components, so the Spaceship victory would have been mine, also.

I traded early and often. I kept all the AI civs gracious to me most of the game. My late Golden Age (triggered by building Hoover's Dam) was used to churn out 20 Infantry. These became Mech Inf later on, which is a pretty sizeable defensive force. (I continued the game until I'd finished the spaceship; the Germans, who were Gracious to me and who had just signed a 20 turn trade, attacked me with about 10 mech inf and modern armor. They all died.) I'd built the UN to prevent it from being used by one of the other civs. For kicks and grins I went back to a turn when a UN vote was held and said "Yes" to the vote; I would have won a diplomatic victory by a 4-2 vote.

So, I say OCC Rocks!

A question about OCC: how about archipelago games and resources on adjacent islands? Would it be permissable to build a city just to build the harbor to ship the resource to you? Perhaps you could set the one population point as an entertainer, and set production to Wealth after building the harbor, just to reduce any other effect of the city on your game.