Hey all,

Sorry if this has already been covered, I looked for a while and was not able to find it.

I'm having trouble nudging my revolution support past 35%.
My four cities are as follows:
New Amsterdam (12): 85%
Fort Nassau (10): 100%
Fort Orange (10): 54%
New Holland (8): 39%

Now, I was at the point where my food production was allowing for free colonist production pretty quickly, but, I was making all of these new colonists into dragoons or soldiers. Are these garrisoned units affecting my revolution support? If so, when you want to stock up on military units before the declaration, how do you balance this with the fact that new units = stagnant Rev. Support?

My Rev. advisor is fluctuating between 34 -37% support. I've tried to cut back on food surpluses to avoid generating fee colonists since I have a solid military at the moment.

Looking for a little insight. Thanks.

People outside of colonies count on the big counter too, soldiers, dragoons, pioneers, etc. Put them in a city to convert them to rebels. :)

That's about what I figured. Is there any way to determine whether a particular individual unit has "rebel" status?

Ones outside the colony are not rebels. :)

Crude, but it works.

By "outside the colony" do you mean "not working a tile or in a building", or "not on a tile where a colony appears", or "not on your culture"?

If you mean the first one, that's not a good idea, IMO. That would penalize you for army size excessively...

I mean people not settled in a colony, soldiers, pioneers, etc.

That was what I was afraid of. I don't see any reason those folks shouldn't be allowed to be counted as rebels (or better yet, not counted as either)...

They are counted because they are your citizens, but they aren't getting any propaganda (bells).

It's like the US troops in Iraq. They "think" they're doing a good job because they do not see the media about what they're doing, but they are still counted as US citizens. ;)

What's the gameplay reason ... you know me, I don't give a rat's ass about the 'story' reason. :)

They count cuz they are your citizens. No matter what job they are performing.

So if you run all of your soldiers (pioneers or whatever) to a city with 100% rebel percentage and fortify them there, will your revolution support rise? Or do the soldiers have to be 'working' in the city? (I sure hope it is not the latter answer)

They count cuz they are your citizens. No matter what job they are performing.

This is still not a gameplay reason... ;)

The only thing that makes sense to me is that it's a limitation on actual soldier count - ie, the more soldiers you have the worse of a problem this is, so it's an incentive to have fewer soldiers. I don't know if that's a good thing or not, but we'll see I suppose. :)

nbcman:
In the example you give, they won't affect rev amount. They need to join the city.

snoop:
How is it not a gameplay reason? You can't expect new colonists/soldiers straight from Europe to take up arms against their King do you? :lol: You have to convert them to your colonies way of thinking before they'll become a rebel. Otherwise, they're just a Tory. :)

A gameplay reason = a reason that it makes the game more fun/better balanced/a better game. Your reason is still a 'role playing' reason, or a 'realism' reason, or a 'story' reason, depending on how you see it. Basically, if you abstract the game to moving different kinds of marbles on a black gameboard (but with the same exact rules), what would the reason be then?

*grumbles* Where's Ken to explain this? *grumble grumble*

10 .

:lol: Poor Dale ...

Here's ya bloody reason! :p


void CvPlayer::doBells()
{
if (getParent() == NO_PLAYER)
{
return;
}

int iBellsRate = getYieldRate(YIELD_BELLS);
if (iBellsRate == 0)
{
return;
}
//add bells to political points
for (int i = 0; i < GC.getNumFatherPointInfos(); ++i)
{
FatherPointTypes ePointType = (FatherPointTypes) i;
changeFatherPoints(ePointType, iBellsRate * GC.getFatherPointInfo(ePointType).getYieldPoints(Y IELD_BELLS));
}

//update revolution unit bells
if (!isInRevolution())
{
changeBellsStored(iBellsRate);
if (getBellsStored() >= revolutionEuropeUnitThreshold() && iBellsRate > GC.getCivilizationInfo(getCivilizationType()).getF reeYields(YIELD_BELLS))
{
changeBellsStored(-revolutionEuropeUnitThreshold());
setRevolutionEuropeUnitThresholdMultiplier((getRev olutionEuropeUnitThresholdMultiplier() * (100 + GC.getDefineINT("REVOLUTION_EUROPE_UNIT_THRESHOLD_INCREASE"))) / 100);

if (NO_PLAYER != getParent())
{
CvPlayer& kParent = GET_PLAYER(getParent());
FAssert(kParent.isEurope());

CvCivilizationInfo& kCivilizationInfo = GC.getCivilizationInfo(kParent.getCivilizationType ());
int iNumFreeUnits = kCivilizationInfo.getNumCivilizationFreeUnits();
std::vector<int> aiUnitWeights(iNumFreeUnits, 100);
for (int i = 0; i < iNumFreeUnits; ++i)
{
int iUnitClass = kCivilizationInfo.getCivilizationFreeUnitsClass(i) ;
UnitTypes eUnit = (UnitTypes) kCivilizationInfo.getCivilizationUnits(iUnitClass) ;
if (eUnit == NO_UNIT)
{
aiUnitWeights[i] = 0;
}
else
{
if (GC.getUnitInfo(eUnit).getDomainType() == DOMAIN_SEA)
{
aiUnitWeights[i] += std::max(-100, GC.getDefineINT("REVOLUTION_EUROPE_UNIT_SHIP_MODIFIER"));
}
}
}

if (iNumFreeUnits > 0)
{
int iIndex = GC.getGameINLINE().getSorenRand().pickValue(aiUnit Weights, "Pick Expeditionary force unit");
int iUnitClass = kCivilizationInfo.getCivilizationFreeUnitsClass(iI ndex);
ProfessionTypes eUnitProfession = (ProfessionTypes) kCivilizationInfo.getCivilizationFreeUnitsProfessi on(iIndex);
UnitTypes eUnit = (UnitTypes)kCivilizationInfo.getCivilizationUnits( iUnitClass);
FAssert(eUnit != NO_UNIT);
int iNumUnits = std::max(1, getRevolutionEuropeUnitThresholdMultiplier() / 100);
for (int i = 0; i < iNumUnits; ++i)
{
addRevolutionEuropeUnit(eUnit, eUnitProfession);
}

const wchar* szUnitName;
if (eUnitProfession != NO_PROFESSION)
{
szUnitName = GC.getProfessionInfo(eUnitProfession).getTextKeyWi de();
}
else
{
szUnitName = GC.getUnitInfo(eUnit).getTextKeyWide();
}

CvWString szBuffer = gDLL->getText("TXT_KEY_NEW_EUROPE_ARMY", kParent.getCivilizationShortDescriptionKey(), getCivilizationShortDescriptionKey(), szUnitName, kParent.getCivilizationAdjectiveKey());
gDLL->getInterfaceIFace()->addMessage(getID(), true, GC.getEVENT_MESSAGE_TIME(), szBuffer, "AS2D_UNIT_GREATPEOPLE", MESSAGE_TYPE_INFO, GC.getUnitInfo(eUnit).getButton(), (ColorTypes)GC.getInfoTypeForString("COLOR_UNIT_TEXT"));
}
}
}
}
}

That's the code to add new units to the REF, not to calculate current rebel percentage, isn't it? Or am I badly misreading that??? (Admittedly it's been a long day at work, and I could well be misreading this badly...)

You might be right. I was in a rush. :p

I just saw "doBells" and "!isInRevolution". :)

To continue harassing Dale: does this apply only to new military units, or all military units?

For example, let's say I have an ordinary citizen working a tile in a city with 100% rebel sentiment. I then decide to arm that citizen and send him off to fight the Spanish (or Native Americans, or to defend another city). Is that unit still considered 100% rebel, or does it reset because it's not in the city?

I'm not 100% sure. It changed a few times during testing, so I'd rather say "I don't know" than give an answer that might be wrong. :)

What do we edit to grow rebel support faster without really affecting FFs? I like the Col1 feel where if you have only a few agitators with leaflets and don't keep adding pop it'll get to 100 pretty fast.

Or where units outside didn't count for anything.

Thanks for the input.

As Snoopy pointed out, this is a real concern to me.

I'm reaching the point where I have to make the "bell push," and, obviously, at this point, I have strong cities. So, I have lots of guns, horses, and most importantly, food. This means I'm popping out a lot of free colonists that I would like to arm for the revolution. Am I right that I basically have to put the colonist into the city and instead arm a specialist that had been in the city so that I don't actually lose revolutionary support each time I gain a free colonist? This makes little sense and is more of a hassle than anything.

So, now that I've highlighted my concern a little bit more clearly, is there any way to determine whether the specialist that I pull out of my 100% city to arm is still a "rebel?" Surely they can't lose rebel status because they are garrisoned, right?

I wish I had seen this thread before I made a similar one in the general Colonization forum.

My angle on this is that I was arming colonists born in high rebel sentiment colonies, but they were still tories. These were not soldiers fresh off the boat from Europe, but they were still dragging the overall sentiment down. If all of the colonies have massive rebel sentiment, why are colonists being born tory?

Exactly.

By late in the game when you are making the revolutionary push, you are pumping out tons of food from the sea with a couple expert fisherman and a drydock. This is nice because you are popping out free colonists that you can arm for the upcoming war. If these colonists are born as tories, it makes no sense. What you are left with is a situation where you have to arm your experts (by this point in the game, you should be mostly experts) and work your newly born free colonists to have them gain rebel status? This just seems silly. Add to that the fact that (at least not that I have found) there is no way of determining which garrisoned soldiers are rebel or tory, this can get quite cumbersome when you have dozens of soldiers.

This is a serious problem, in my opinion.

One thing I noticed its that cannons dont count towards the rebel percentage. So I guess on my next game Ill try defending with just cannons instead of using colonists with muskets and see how it goes.

I suspect that this has the same problem that has cropped up elsewhere (like adding a Master Carpenter to the city the turn before a Free Colonist finishes school to make him a Master Carpenter). If you need the 50% to declare, just add everyone to that 100% city, doing whatever - weaving when there is no cotton, fur trading when there are no furs. This will bump your rebel sentiment over 50% you can start your revolution then move them back into the field. Make sure you have lots of Galleons in that city so you can stash all their guns and horses while they're 'working'.

Is there a benefit to the rebel sentiment during the war? Because the war typically involves taking regulars and putting guns in their hands and moving them to the field, which, if rebel is attached to the city and not to the unit then would cause rebel sentiment to drop even further. Or once you build it up does it not go down?

(This is all idle speculation and guess work and should in no way be considered anything remotely like how the game actually operates - I haven't even finished a complete game yet).

This is the basic plan of action that I planned for the next time I get to the point of declaration. It would have been futile to do this in the previous game simply because I had been stuck at 35% forever (while at 100% in all of my cities) because of my forces that were garrisoned. I was thinking that, gee I don't know, they would have become rebels while garrisoned. No such luck, at least in my experience so far, so, in that time where I was stuck on 35% the royal army had grown to an absurd level, so, I didn't even bother trying this. If we're left with having to undergo this ridiculously silly step that you've suggested, I'm really going to be a bit unhappy with the design.

I forgot to mention, that the step is much more involved than simply doing this for one turn. When you put a new citizen in the city (a tory) it lowers the percentage of support by a set number (I think I remember 9%). So, basically you'll have to alternate guys in and out and somehow keep track of who is tory is who is rebel. That's of course assuming they don't become tory again when you garrison them.

Thats why Im testing defending with cannons only. What Im doing in my actual game is this:

1)Like everyone seems suggesting, dont build bells until you are ready to independency.
2)Have a city with 3 carpenters building cannons and my other 3 cities as usual producing goods.
3)Defend all my cities with cannons.
4)When Im ready to WoI start making bells as fast as possible to achive 50% fast to avoid a big REF. While reaching 50%, stack max number of muskets and horses in my cities.
5)Declare independence and make everybody working inside my cities soldiers (as much as my ammount of muskets and horses allow)
6)Pray god and hope it works :lol:

I havent reach step 4 yet, Ill tell you how it worked.

Also remember, if not mistaken, but I remember looking at the option last night, but there is an option to prevent a city from growing. Top left hand corner if not mistaken?

Defending with cannons seems like a possible option, but, the larger point remains that this design just seems flawed. Essentially, you can't build up an (large) army until you declare independence. I suppose this is reasonable enough IF you could store sufficient arms to make a winning army. I'm not yet sure if this is possible. Assuming five cities, all with Warehouse Exp., you can store guns/horses for 30 military units. I guess this could be enough if you built up bells fast enough, but, all of these methods seem like finding ways around a game flaw....

I wish I had seen this thread before I made a similar one in the general Colonization forum.

My angle on this is that I was arming colonists born in high rebel sentiment colonies, but they were still tories. These were not soldiers fresh off the boat from Europe, but they were still dragging the overall sentiment down. If all of the colonies have massive rebel sentiment, why are colonists being born tory?

I guess the philosophy is we're all born as slaves and only revolution can set us free! :p

I tried it and it wasn't too bad. Just make sure when you start to push for sentiment that you can instantly put in a nice rush of statesmen and that previous to that you spent a lot of time getting Ben Franklin and John Adams and other founding fathers who increase liberty bell production. Do this with producing political points with production.

Essentially, you can't build up an (large) army until you declare independence. I suppose this is reasonable enough IF you could store sufficient arms to make a winning army. I'm not yet sure if this is possible. Assuming five cities, all with Warehouse Exp., you can store guns/horses for 30 military units. I guess this could be enough if you built up bells fast enough, but, all of these methods seem like finding ways around a game flaw....

Doesn't seem like a flaw to me. Everyone in the colony is working! The colonies don't have big armies. Stash your arms and horses. Remember that you can build a bunch of Wagons to store an extra 200 guns / horses in. This is actually a really wise idea. If Europe decides to take your gun producing town, you want a bunch of wagons loaded with guns which you can move out of that town just in case things go south. Regroup, re-arm new recruits from the wagons and fight again!

Just lost the game because of this game feature. As the french colonies, I was by far the largest and richest power in the new world. I was preparing for the upcoming fight with my lord and king by garrisoning most of my new free colonists while trying feverishly to raise my rebel sentiment. I was glad to see rebel percentages go up in my cities, 50, 60, upper 70 percent... My army was getting huge in the mean time... When I realized that my garrisons had negated the effects of my elder statesmen, George Washington had gained up on me and DoI'd on me... If I had known about this "colonist garrisons are 100% tory, always", I could have DoI maybe 30 years before Washington. Cannons not counting as garrisons proves how flawed this system is. The cannoneers aren't mindless drones, they're people with political opinions, just like infantry men or dragoons.

When you accumulate 200 food, the free colonist that appears at the city gates, is he from the old world (100% tory)? I mean, I thought the colonist was born from parents inside the city, but I guess the abundance of food attracts people from Europe? The way it works now is when you hit the 200 number, a parentless golem of ears of corn rises from the storehouse that I devoutedly loyal to the king.

How intentional is this? Is this feature in place to prevent the player from getting too strong before declaring independence? Only the city rebel / tory ratio mattered in the original Colonization. This is a major game design change from it's predecessor.

... just leave out colonists outside colonies from the overall rebel percentage calculations or take the rougher road and change the colonists so they can be either tory or rebel? When a new colonist is born, the game would randomly choose which colonist is his parent and he'd inherit his polical views. That'd be fair, as long as the rebel propaganda filled newspapers make their way into the fort *winkwink*. (But I guess nobody from Firaxis is listening in.)

If you have enough Elders working in a printing press with the right statesmen to back him up you can keep up and exceed the rate of new colonists pretty easily. Just need like 10 ES and printing presses everywhere.

I guess cannons don't count so that you can have some settlement defense against early native attacks and such and let your soldiers and dragoons support the economy by working inside colonies until such times as they are called upon to bear arms.

Alright, gameplay seems SOOOO broken that I just can't resist playing it now, ahah! On my way to pick up the DVD from a friend.

Ok, I won my first game without "cheating". :king:

Dutch, huge map, Pilgrim difficulty (yes, I know :lol:), using the cannons aproach I mentioned before. Maybe it was the huge amounts of silver I sold but it was kinda of easy this time.

Had a continent for myself (discovered the other european nations on turn 150). Had 5 towns: 2 producing cannons, one producing massive silver and the other 2 producing the other goods. This time rushing for 50% was easy, with all the money I made from the silver I bought 2 statemen for each city and build/bought newspaper on them. In less than 20 turns I reached 50%. After that I just armed all my citizens with all the muskets and horses I stocked (had ships and carts full of them at my cities plus the 300 in the warehouse). And after that it was GG.

I still think theres a lot of tweaking to make but Im not as dissapointed as I was when I first played it. Of course I now see it not as Colonization 2 but as an excellent Civ IV mod.

Garrisoned units should be subject to liberty bells, plain and simple. Fixing this and rebalancing the REF generation will go a long way will solve the two major problems with the game right now.

... just leave out colonists outside colonies from the overall rebel percentage calculations or take the rougher road and change the colonists so they can be either tory or rebel? When a new colonist is born, the game would randomly choose which colonist is his parent and he'd inherit his polical views. That'd be fair, as long as the rebel propaganda filled newspapers make their way into the fort *winkwink*. (But I guess nobody from Firaxis is listening in.)

I would be okay with the percentage of rebel sentiment being the chance a colonist born there will be a rebel sympathizer. If the town is 70% Rebel, 30% Tory, those are the corresponding chances for each. If the town is 100% rebel, each colonist born should be Rebel.

If each colonist born is always Tory, that's an extra step and getting into heavier micromanagement.

I would be okay with the percentage of rebel sentiment being the chance a colonist born there will be a rebel sympathizer. If the town is 70% Rebel, 30% Tory, those are the corresponding chances for each. If the town is 100% rebel, each colonist born should be Rebel.

If each colonist born is always Tory, that's an extra step and getting into heavier micromanagement.

Now you are advocating a completely deterministic mechanic, what about free choice? :lol:

Don't worry, just playing devil's advocate, I suspect your idea might work well from a game mechanics point of view. ;)

A gameplay reason = a reason that it makes the game more fun/better balanced/a better game. Your reason is still a 'role playing' reason, or a 'realism' reason, or a 'story' reason, depending on how you see it. Basically, if you abstract the game to moving different kinds of marbles on a black gameboard (but with the same exact rules), what would the reason be then?
There is a good gameplay reason for it, more combat units before the revolution -> you need more bells to declare revolution -> king will send a bigger army. So, you can't just mass a big numbers, you should have a plan. IMHO it's a good thing for a strategy game.

I would be okay with the percentage of rebel sentiment being the chance a colonist born there will be a rebel sympathizer. If the town is 70% Rebel, 30% Tory, those are the corresponding chances for each. If the town is 100% rebel, each colonist born should be Rebel.

If each colonist born is always Tory, that's an extra step and getting into heavier micromanagement.
You can exploit it by transferring all your food to a 100% rebel city, all colonists will born there... Unexploitable solution will be to have an additional global pool of liberty bells that will increase by (total liberty bells everywhere / total population) each time a colonist will be born.

Just lost the game because of this game feature. As the french colonies, I was by far the largest and richest power in the new world. I was preparing for the upcoming fight with my lord and king by garrisoning most of my new free colonists while trying feverishly to raise my rebel sentiment. I was glad to see rebel percentages go up in my cities, 50, 60, upper 70 percent... My army was getting huge in the mean time... When I realized that my garrisons had negated the effects of my elder statesmen, George Washington had gained up on me and DoI'd on me... If I had known about this "colonist garrisons are 100% tory, always", I could have DoI maybe 30 years before Washington. Cannons not counting as garrisons proves how flawed this system is. The cannoneers aren't mindless drones, they're people with political opinions, just like infantry men or dragoons.

When you accumulate 200 food, the free colonist that appears at the city gates, is he from the old world (100% tory)? I mean, I thought the colonist was born from parents inside the city, but I guess the abundance of food attracts people from Europe? The way it works now is when you hit the 200 number, a parentless golem of ears of corn rises from the storehouse that I devoutedly loyal to the king.

How intentional is this? Is this feature in place to prevent the player from getting too strong before declaring independence? Only the city rebel / tory ratio mattered in the original Colonization. This is a major game design change from it's predecessor.

... just leave out colonists outside colonies from the overall rebel percentage calculations or take the rougher road and change the colonists so they can be either tory or rebel? When a new colonist is born, the game would randomly choose which colonist is his parent and he'd inherit his polical views. That'd be fair, as long as the rebel propaganda filled newspapers make their way into the fort *winkwink*. (But I guess nobody from Firaxis is listening in.)

That's about exactly the same as my first game experience with this..."situation."

I just won my first game, and, I basically avoided this situation, which I'm still going to call a "problem" by basically storing dozens of loads of guns and horses. 2xGalleon full of guns, Merchantman full of horses, all 5 settlements to the max with each as well. Without making much of an army I was able to get over 50% and then declare and create as much of an army as my stored resources could create. The army was sufficient to win, but, I still don't really like being forced to wait to create an army. I just don't see why bells wouldn't impact garrisoned units. Make it take longer, a lot longer if that is what is needed to keep it balanced, but, don't make units DEFENDING a city IMMUNE from any of the growing revolutionary support within the city walls.

What about % chance of being born rebel or slave is based on overall rebel sentiment for all colonies? That would get around exploiting it by having everyone being born in a 100% rebel city.

The only thing that makes sense to me is that it's a limitation on actual soldier count - ie, the more soldiers you have the worse of a problem this is, so it's an incentive to have fewer soldiers. I don't know if that's a good thing or not, but we'll see I suppose. :)

My obligatory take on it: it would be too powerful if you could build a huge army/navy then, zip, declare independence. Further, it may accurately reflect the logistical difficulty of fielding and equipping vast standing armies comprised largely of volunteers and conscripts.

It may also be a pain in the ass.