Peter Minuit: -25% cost of recruiting units in Europe

Whoever gets this guy has an overwhelming advantage over the opposition. The key to understanding his power is that the only thing you spend your gold on are..units! His discount applies to both on-the-docks colonists, fixed-price trained specialists, as well as ships and cannons. A player almost never spends any money on commodities except for the a few horses, guns, or tools early in the game. Petey's advantage is essentially 33% more gold generated. At the end of the game when you're ramping up to the war of independence, the most efficient way to get more raw colonists is to buy the $800 (now $600!) trained specialists like ore miners and lumberjacks, and train/equip them to be soldiers. This is more efficient than farming food to grow your own new colonists, at least until the tax rate becomes prohibitive. Get an early statesmen running to pick him up before your rivals do and reap the immense benefits.

He's really unbalanced when playing with the Spanish.

I just went berserk with Jose de San Martin and completely obliterated every indian civilization in my continent, fetched myself a pretty Galleon, got Peter Minuit as a FF, and sent all the treasure back to Europe earning more than 20000 doubloons. By mid 17th century I had an army consisting of about half (!!!) the entire REF, and heavily promoted to boot.

Yeah, he helps a lot.

What's your opinion on the other founding fathers?

I agree, Peter Minuit was the only one i really wanted to get and i got him as my first Founding Father in my first game :) Some others are ok too, but they aren't as good as this one. Nothing else gives such a serious scaling bonus - gold multiplier.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I didn't realize for the longest time (about 1/3 of my first game) that the founding fathers screen actually scrolls :) There are a lot of really good ones. I do like Minuit, but I don't consider his talents game-breaking; some others give 2-3 free units, which is about what you could probably buy with the savings. Is he one of the better? Definitely. Hands-down the best? No. It depends on the game circumstances and who you are. Gaining 50% bonus to missions and free missionaries could be better if you are the French guy who has great native relations already (don't recall his name); you effectively get roughly the same # of free units from a single mission as you could purchase extra using Minuit, and you can establish multiple missions.

Don't get me wrong -- Minuit is certainly on the short list of desirable guys to get, but I think you have to look at what is synergistic with your goals and then decide who is best.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I didn't realize for the longest time (about 1/3 of my first game) that the founding fathers screen actually scrolls :) There are a lot of really good ones. I do like Minuit, but I don't consider his talents game-breaking; some others give 2-3 free units, which is about what you could probably buy with the savings. Is he one of the better? Definitely. Hands-down the best? No. It depends on the game circumstances and who you are. Gaining 50% bonus to missions and free missionaries could be better if you are the French guy who has great native relations already (don't recall his name); you effectively get roughly the same # of free units from a single mission as you could purchase extra using Minuit, and you can establish multiple missions.

Don't get me wrong -- Minuit is certainly on the short list of desirable guys to get, but I think you have to look at what is synergistic with your goals and then decide who is best.


Three extra units or 50% native conversion are nowhere near as valuble as 33% more units from gold. Just to give an example from my current game, my six settlements have about 16 colonists each, and at least twelve of those sixteen were trained from Europe (the rest are native conversions or homegrown). Doing the math, the money spent training those 12 * 6 = 72 total units would have only bought 72 * .75 = 54 units without Minuit. He gave me 72 - 54 = 18 extra units. No other founding father comes close.

How often do you get converts from missions? Are this displayed in-game? Are several multipliers multiplied or added (french + FF for example)? Would need to know that to compare a 50% bonus to Minuits 25% cost reduction.

Peter Minuit was one of the best ones in the original Colonization too, as I recall, but for different reasons.

How often do you get converts from missions? Are this displayed in-game? Are several multipliers multiplied or added (french + FF for example)? Would need to know that to compare a 50% bonus to Minuits 25% cost reduction.


I got the feeling that the converts diminish over time, like the first one takes x turns and the 2nd one x turns plus a increasing %. The Minuits bonus is always the same, so thats already an advantage.

almost everything diminishes. converts, immigrants, learning from natives, teaching, generals.

almost everything diminishes. converts, immigrants, learning from natives, teaching, generals.

Sounds like the overarching strategy for the game will be about balancing power of diversity (due to diminishing returns on any one method) with power of specialization (cheaper and faster to establish high level of output).

Three extra units or 50% native conversion are nowhere near as valuble as 33% more units from gold. Just to give an example from my current game, my six settlements have about 16 colonists each, and at least twelve of those sixteen were trained from Europe (the rest are native conversions or homegrown). Doing the math, the money spent training those 12 * 6 = 72 total units would have only bought 72 * .75 = 54 units without Minuit. He gave me 72 - 54 = 18 extra units. No other founding father comes close.

I agree Minuit is powerful, but there is a deep flaw in this logic, and I still don't think he is the best in any game. You are assuming all units purchased cost the same. I suspect the real number of free units is much lower, and playing as the Frenchman with already good Native conversions from missions, 3 free Jesuit Missionaries early could rival Minuit; and later you can add on bonuses to missions above and beyond that. Additionally, with Minuit, you spend more resources on unit purchases than one would otherwise with native conversions. So, is he one of the top-tier? Definitely. Are others at least as powerful in certain game situations? I certainly believe so. Minuit is probably the top-tier guy who is the most straightforward to use and most accessible, though -- I will certainly give you that.

Is he one of the better? Definitely. Hands-down the best? No. It depends on the game circumstances and who you are.

So, is he one of the top-tier? Definitely. Are others at least as powerful in certain game situations? I certainly believe so.
Hmm. Same format, same answer.

Draw another argument.

well i tried playing a religion game
in that case i found myself buying very few men in europe, just the few i really really needed
still havent perfected that strat, dunno if its worth the others but the idea is youll end up with a TONS of men waiting for you in europe, i just couldnt even carry them all

still the FF is not bad, you have cash and you want to spend it, but its surely less needed

probably i should try such a game with a minimum commerce, trying to avoid many goods and focus on expanding since i dont need much money

I agree Minuit is powerful, but there is a deep flaw in this logic, and I still don't think he is the best in any game. You are assuming all units purchased cost the same.

Units having different costs is irrelevant. You spend X gold on units with varied prices throughout the game; with Minuit you would effectively have 33% more gold to spend, yielding 33% more units. The fact that they cost different amounts doesn't matter: the units constituting that extra 33% will have the same average price as the other 66%. For example, let's say I have Minuit and purchase (These aren't real the prices, just an example):

10 expert ore miners costing 600 each
10 master blacksmiths 900 each
10 master gunsmiths costing 1200 each
10 elder statesmen costing 1500 each

Total gold spent = 6000+9000+12000+15000 = 42000. Without Minuit the costs would increase by 33% on each unit, and I'd only be able to buy 6.67 of each unit for the same gold. I'd still have to buy 10 of each unit without Minuit (the squares that need working don't change), but I'd have to spend more gold.

I suspect the real number of free units is much lower, and playing as the Frenchman with already good Native conversions from missions, 3 free Jesuit Missionaries early could rival Minuit; and later you can add on bonuses to missions above and beyond that. Additionally, with Minuit, you spend more resources on unit purchases than one would otherwise with native conversions.

Native conversions are nice, but relying on them for the bulk of your workforce is a (imho) weak strategy. There are several reasons why:

- They don't come fast enough, even with lots of French Jesuit missions boosted by religious founding fathers (I had three Jesuit missions set up since the beginning in the game I mentioned as well as most of the religious FF's and maybe 15% of my workforce was native)
- They are worse than European trained specialists in field work
- They are completely useless for any "left-screen" manufacturing jobs, which constitute 40-50% of your workforce

Natives simply cannot run your economy; they are a nice bonus but you are forced to purchase large numbers of trained specialists every single game. Educating natives is not an option due to the severe diminishing returns on education points.

misterslack: What about setting up missions in native villages that train a skill you want alot of, like farmer/fisherman/trapper etc? Then you can just train them right away as they're born to become specialists.

Natives simply cannot run your economy; they are a nice bonus but you are forced to purchase large numbers of trained specialists every single game. Educating natives is not an option due to the severe diminishing returns on education points.

im sure you are wrong in here
the first trainings are VERY fast, and afaik the training DR is different for each native town

that means you can train 4 5 fisherman fast on a town then another 4 5 farmer etc

and in a normal game you need only many fisherman and farmers and some miner, usually the rest are less important

its usually good to build half town with food based on farms instead of all on water, imo

the only game i ended with natives with an impossible time to train fisherman i had like all town with 3 4 square of water, couldnt really train them all at the end i had to buy some

i found training very useful and the best way to get the easy workers done, since i have to spend a lot on armorers/blacksmithers etc

misterslack: What about setting up missions in native villages that train a skill you want alot of, like farmer/fisherman/trapper etc? Then you can just train them right away as they're born to become specialists.

I think this would work very well if you have a good selection of different skill-teaching native villages. However, which villages teach which skills is random. You're pretty much guaranteed to have farmer and fisherman nearby, but the rest may or may not match what you need. Ore miner villages seem particularly rare.


im sure you are wrong in here
the first trainings are VERY fast, and afaik the training DR is different for each native town

When I said "education" I was referring to training colonists in your own cities through schools/colleges/universities, not training in native villages. I don't think native village training has diminishing returns, but I could be wrong. Regardless it's very useful throughout the game, but it won't cover all your needs, particularly the "left-screen" manufacturing jobs .

and in a normal game you need only many fisherman and farmers and some miner, usually the rest are less important

I disagree, I think the most important colonists are carpenters, blacksmiths, gunsmiths, and cash-crop processors (distillers, weavers, tobacconists), and of course statesmen late-game. Ore miners are somewhat important, but food and lumber specialists are not needed until your cities start getting big and you need multiple carpenters to build the expensive buildings.

Look I'm not saying native converts or using native villages are a bad thing, they're certainly useful, but you *need* to buy lots of specialists from Europe to win this game and Minuit gives you a massive boost in this area.

When I said "education" I was referring to training colonists in your own cities through schools/colleges/universities, not training in native villages. I don't think native village training has diminishing returns,

yes they have, but as i said its inside the town, surely not shared with other professions, thats very good for first tier specialists



but I could be wrong. Regardless it's very useful throughout the game, but it won't cover all your needs, particularly the "left-screen" manufacturing jobs .


yeah ofc



I disagree, I think the most important colonists are carpenters, blacksmiths, gunsmiths, and cash-crop processors (distillers, weavers, tobacconists), and of course statesmen late-game. Ore miners are somewhat important, but food and lumber specialists are not needed until your cities start getting big and you need multiple carpenters to build the expensive buildings.

well i admit im still learning the game so i dont have a superb strat yet
but i dont understand how to use very well blacksmith and carpenters at the start, they require a lot of additional workforce like raw mats and food in the town, all waste

dunno maybe im wrong but if i have to put 3 fisher/farmer in a town i rather use the surplus food to generate fast support than to "waste" the food to feed the blacksmith and the carpenter and the woodcutter, in fact i usually start buyng/training them around half game and i only get those free in the early game (or buy a couple if im not lucky)



Look I'm not saying native converts or using native villages are a bad thing, they're certainly useful, but you *need* to buy lots of specialists from Europe to win this game and Minuit gives you a massive boost in this area.

well i was specifically try to get a leader with good native bonuses and get other FF to support the strategy, i got both the 50% speed increased and the 25 % later
(the 3 missionaries i dont think its that good, i found it decent at start but if i have to rush i rather take the 75% conversion , missionaries are very cheap)

btw im not saying its a winning strat, but in my best game i had like 10 missionaries and at the end they was a good bonus in the middle game when you usually spend lot of money on expensive specialists

I dont understand why this FF guy is good. Base unit costs increase. So we are not getting 25% more units but only a few more.

Total gold spent = 6000+9000+12000+15000 = 42000. Without Minuit the costs would increase by 33% on each unit, and I'd only be able to buy 6.67 of each unit for the same gold.
I dont understand why the 33% instead of 25%, but regardless, one lategame unit=multiple earlygame units, eating up that bonus for them. Lets follow that example.

33% discount:
6k+9k+12k+15k+18k+21k+24k+27k+30k+33k = 195K for 100units
No discount:
8k+12k+16k+20k+24k+28k+32k+36k+ 5*4000= 196K for 85 units

15 more units, not 33. Difference will only decrease with more purchased units. (to zero)

I dont understand why this FF guy is good. Base unit costs increase. So we are not getting 25% more units but only a few more.

I dont understand why the 33% instead of 25%, but regardless, one lategame unit=multiple earlygame units, eating up that bonus for them. Lets follow that example.

33% discount:
6k+9k+12k+15k+18k+21k+24k+27k+30k+33k = 195K for 100units
No discount:
8k+12k+16k+20k+24k+28k+32k+36k+ 5*4000= 196K for 85 units

15 more units, not 33. Difference will only decrease with more purchased units. (to zero)

No no no. The cost of trained specialists *does not* increase throughout the game. An elder statesman costs 1500 no matter how many you buy. The reason I used different costs in my example is because, well, different units have different costs and you need many different units of varied costs to run your settlements.

Also, Peter Minuit gives a 25% discount to unit costs (so they cost 3/4 of normal). This is equivalent to a 33% increase in gold spent purchasing units because 1/(3/4) = 4/3 = 1.33.

I think the reason for a lot of the confusion in this thread, is that I know SOME units do increase in price.

Each time you purchase a cannon for example, I think it increases by at least 100g.

I think Peter Minuit is pretty overrated at the moment. While I agree he is good other FFs are pretty decent also.
The thing is prices for export articles are much less unstable than in Col1, so if you really need money you have pretty decent ways to get money.
Thus a moneysaving FF is not necessarily a top choice in all scenarios.

Yes, I agree he is over-rated, but still an interesting choice. I have much more important favourites, (at least for my playing style). Anyhow... Threads like this remind me of back in Civ IV where every freiken time a new leader would come in, there'd be thread after thread like "Zomg!!! Trait1/Trait2 is just.... OMG sooo overpowering. OMG! We have to fix this!!!"

And like always, after a few months suddenly no one talks about that leader anymore, as they always turn out not to live up to all the hype that surrounded them.

If Firaxis reads these posts, it sort of worries me because with the little work they spare on bug fixes (which is very small to be honest), I'd much rather have them fix something that is truely broken, instead of wasting precious man-hours trying to fix something that ISN'T broken, but just over-rated with a lot of hoopla.

So far I've found Peter Minuit to be much better than any other FF. Then again, I've never gotten a FF at 3k or more political points.

Gahhh!! I dont' know how that is possible, are you only building one city? LOL.

I always end up filling all the bars for each category. Don't think I've ever had less than 30 Fathers.

Gahhh!! I dont' know how that is possible, are you only building one city? LOL.

I always end up filling all the bars for each category. Don't think I've ever had less than 30 Fathers.

Didn't you know? Less is more in Civ:Col

Seems to be strong ya - but depends also on your playstyle - I usually try to be kind of indepndent.

with this +1 Food guy u get guys to to food overflow really fast aswell

and overall the +3 Hammer guy seem to be strongest if u r playing a big nation.

But really depends of u play with 3 cities or so there are other strong FF then playing with 30 cities

I think the reason for a lot of the confusion in this thread, is that I know SOME units do increase in price.

Each time you purchase a cannon for example, I think it increases by at least 100g.

Cannons and veteran soldiers are the only units that increase in price. This doesn't diminish Minuit's value since there are so many other specialists that you need to buy.

I think Peter Minuit is pretty overrated at the moment. While I agree he is good other FFs are pretty decent also.
The thing is prices for export articles are much less unstable than in Col1, so if you really need money you have pretty decent ways to get money.
Thus a moneysaving FF is not necessarily a top choice in all scenarios.

The fact that the prices are more stable doesn't matter. To get your cities ready for independence, you have to buy a certain number of specialists from Europe. The number of specialists you'll end up buying, Minuit or not, doesn't change. If you need 3 statesmen in each city, then you need 3. With Minuit you will have to spend 33% less gold to acquire these units, which means you can start spending your money on ore-miner-turned-soldiers that much sooner.

Seems to be strong ya - but depends also on your playstyle - I usually try to be kind of indepndent.

with this +1 Food guy u get guys to to food overflow really fast aswell

and overall the +3 Hammer guy seem to be strongest if u r playing a big nation.

But really depends of u play with 3 cities or so there are other strong FF then playing with 30 cities

These guys are also good (I don't think they're better than Minuit in absolute terms), but they're also expensive, especially McCormick. One of Minuit's key advantages is that you can get him so early. He's the cheapest trade FF, which are the easiest types to get (getting the first exploration guy is faster if you can get a seasoned scout on your first trip to Europe).

I never buy more than two statesman from europe. I just teach the rest of them in schools. Its much cheaper and even faster if you have good school system. Couple of farm towns, two towns with fully upgraded schools and good relations with natives and I don't need much from europe.

While you only need to ever buy 1 statesman and such with the school system taking care of the rest, the diminishing returns on education means using it for farmers/fishermen (in case natives didn't have both) and lumberjacks, carpenters and ore miners etc is not feasible. If you quickly want a competent workforce for these tasks you need to buy them from europe and Minuit can save you a ton of cash. He also enables you to buy a galleon early if you have lots of treasure to transport which can be helpful since you might need some time to accumulate enough gold without cashing in those treasures. You not only get cheaper units, you get them earlier.

By the way, did anyone ever test teaching a colonist to become a jesuit missionary or seasoned scout?

I have to agree that this schooling system seems to suck. Even though I max it out by putting in the University etc, and even getting fathers that Boost education, it quickly becomes futile to TRAIN units once you do this a few times.

And think of all the time/hammers wasted while building them.

Well I never build more than two universities (i think even two is too much) and I never build any schools in other towns. Also I never teach anyone at least until college is up, then it goes fast! Every couple of turns new Statesman. Last game I played epic speed, large map and conquistador diff, in no more than 40 turns I tough 15 statesman and couple of fishermen also.

Imo it is very important to school only the most expensive professions, firebrand preachers, statesman and maybe some factory workers. For field workers use Indian settlements and buy master workers from europe.

Of course a lot depends on map size and game speed. On small maps you don't get all needed indian villages and you don't need as much specialists. And game speed also effects units cost in europe. On epic Statesman cost 6000, while on quick he's 1500.

One thing I haven't had a chance to test yet, if you are almost done educating a unit, then turn him into a dragoon, then later put him back into the education system, does he still REMEMBER his prior education points? Or is there a decay half-life, etc.

Anyhow, back to Peter M. I'd say, just looking at the Military leaders alone, I'd probably take at least half of those guys over Peter. I don't say ALL of them because, there are a couple real duds in there. For example, the first one gives a free stockade (useless) in every city, ughh. Another later one, gives a lousy single frigate, etc. But then... look at some of the good gems in that category.

I'm sure the free-stockade guy will be useful in the next patching though (we hope). And the free-boats guys, need to be made much cheaper to be feasable, and even then I don't see them worth that much.

The looter upgrade I haven't seen affects anything much, but this can be because I don't pay attention ;).

One thing I haven't had a chance to test yet, if you are almost done educating a unit, then turn him into a dragoon, then later put him back into the education system, does he still REMEMBER his prior education points? Or is there a decay half-life, etc.


Yes he does remember his points. I use that all the time!
This is a small, very useful mini exploit.
Lets say you ended training your colonist and got that pop up into what I want him to train. Now if you have enough money its ok, but if your low on money you don't get any option to wait with training for a turn. Only option is that you go into city and put him outside of the colony, then you can wait with him till you get enough money for desired specialization.

I'll try sometime if its possible to pre train colonists and then just put a new specialist into town and train them into that one. I already smell a big exploit with that school system. ;)

One thing I haven't had a chance to test yet, if you are almost done educating a unit, then turn him into a dragoon, then later put him back into the education system, does he still REMEMBER his prior education points? Or is there a decay half-life, etc.

Anyhow, back to Peter M. I'd say, just looking at the Military leaders alone, I'd probably take at least half of those guys over Peter. I don't say ALL of them because, there are a couple real duds in there. For example, the first one gives a free stockade (useless) in every city, ughh. Another later one, gives a lousy single frigate, etc. But then... look at some of the good gems in that category.

I'm sure the free-stockade guy will be useful in the next patching though (we hope). And the free-boats guys, need to be made much cheaper to be feasable, and even then I don't see them worth that much.

Yes they remember how much education points they had, at least they still remember after working with something else for one turn.
What I can't understand is why education should give diminishing returns for your entire empire. You don't get that with indian training where it's specific to a village. I think you should at least be allowed to only have education diminish for individual cities. That way mass-education can be a little more viable by spreading infrastructure around your colonies and be an alternative to trade-buying specialists.

I strongly agree with Gliese 581 here. Instead of makeing progression slower for education colony-wide, each city should have its individual treashold and the progression even made faster.

Add to that the fact that you can't zip colonists back and forth to insta educate without price (those 'teachers' need to have worked for quite some time in the colony in whatever profession) and it should work out way better than it does now...
That whould actually increase the value of the school-FF alot + whould be quite easy to grasp and make the investment into edacation / higher ecucation / university much more worthwhile. Instead of planting one college somewere, beeing forced to plan from the start of the game the few pops you want to train and then utterly forgetting about it / buy the rest or turn to the natives...

Do we start to see a pattern in multiplayer already?

Turn ~1520
Peter Minuit joins Peter Stuyvesant.
Simon Bolivar: Crap! I was sooo close
Louis de Frontenac: gg
George Washington: OMG win button! cya
George Washington has left the game
Louis de Frontenac has left the game
Simon Bolivar has left the game

Another issue with education, is I think there may be another exploit. It seems that the quirement only goes up once you POP out a graduated student. So, if you educate a bunch of people, and remove them from the que before graduating, you have educated a bunch of people far cheaper than should have been allowed. And can store them later for when you need to convert them into statesmen, etc.

Someone may want to confirm this.