I'd love to se an Ancient Mediterranean MOD based on the Colonization resource, weapons and trade system. Hopefully some skillfull people here will fall for the same idea. I think the ancient era is perfect to for the Colonization system.

Some problems;

1) It will be no home countries, all resources must have a purpose, so they can be traded. We can of course have some tribes too, in Northern/Eastern Europe, Arabia and Africa.
2) Where will money come from? Perhaps directly from gold and silver mines?

I'd love to se an Ancient Mediterranean MOD based on the Colonization resource, weapons and trade system. Hopefully some skillfull people here will fall for the same idea. I think the anceint era is perfect to for the Colonization system.

Some problems;

1) It will be no home countries, all resources must have a purpose, so they can be traded. We can of course have some tribes too, in Northern/Eastern Europe, Arabia and Africa.
2) Where will money come from? Perhaps directly from gold and silver mines?



Well, you can replace home countries with some well-developed markets outside of the playing territory. For example, sending expedition to Babylon to sell some goods and recruit some specialists sounds good.

The REAL question is: what're you going to do with revolution an the stuff?

can't you have greek city states (Athens, sparta, etc), phoenicia etc as the home powers? and set up colonies trading in slaves, salt, dye etc?

I guess if you re-use civ4 graphics you can make it work. it would be cool.

That would be a really fun mod. As far as victory conditions go, you don't need a WoI. You could have victory conditions based on empire size, amount of money earned, or population could. As far as resources go, we could have:

Electrum - Replaces Silver
Olives\Olive Oil - Replaces Tobacco\Cigars
Grapes\Wine - Replaces Sugar\Rum
Clay\Pottery - Replaces Fur\Coats
Wool\Clothes - Replaces Cotton\Cloth

Then to spice it up, we could add five rare resources that can not be gathered from the land, only purchased(or taken by force) from other settlements: Silk(rare Clothes), Gold(rare Electrum), Porcelain(rare Pottery), Tea(rare Wine) and Incense(rare "Olive Oil").

I've thought about making this mod, but I currently don't have the time to get it started. If we got enough people together who'd want to work on it, I'd be happy to start off.

i could helpout. maybe make some new leaders. probably not hard to get varietas delectat units in for the civs too

anyone want to do this for the competition?

I'd love to see you two guys making a mod like this, you're the best. I'd love to help with ideas, but I'm afraid I know nothing about programming etc. Good Lord, what a great game Col2 could be if it was located in the ancient times! :)

By the way Thamis, your working on Empire: Total War now? Congratulations, you are the best. The TAM-mods for CIV3 and 4 are the best CIV-mods ever. I lost faith in the Total war series after Medieval2, but with you and the London team (TW:Rome team) making this new one, I'm thrilled again!

That would be a really fun mod. As far as victory conditions go, you don't need a WoI. You could have victory conditions based on empire size, amount of money earned, or population could. As far as resources go, we could have:

Electrum - Replaces Silver
Olives\Olive Oil - Replaces Tobacco\Cigars
Grapes\Wine - Replaces Sugar\Rum
Clay\Pottery - Replaces Fur\Coats
Wool\Clothes - Replaces Cotton\Cloth

Then to spice it up, we could add five rare resources that can not be gathered from the land, only purchased(or taken by force) from other settlements: Silk(rare Clothes), Gold(rare Electrum), Porcelain(rare Pottery), Tea(rare Wine) and Incense(rare "Olive Oil").

Good ideas, and what about needing copper and tin for making bronze weapons? We could have two different kinds of hand weaponry; swords and spears.

We definitely got some really good ideas here. I especially like the resources!

The Map:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/dc/Ancient_colonies.PNG/800px-Ancient_colonies.PNG

I suggest we cut the map just west of Greece, so that we have Italy to Spain as map. We could also make a second map with the Black Sea.

"European" Nations:
Phoenicians
Ionians
Dorians
Achaeans

These three tribes of Greece were the major colonizers.

The Natives:
Italics
Etruscans
Ligurians
Illyrians
Berbers
Iberians
Tartessians
Celts
Lusitanians

Units:

"European":
- Axeman (requires Copper)
- Spearman (requires Copper)
- Swordsman (requires Iron)
- Phalanx (requires Iron)
- Chariot (= Axeman on Horse)
- Cavalry (= Swordsman on Horse)
- Archer

Ships:
- Merchant Galley
- Galley
- Large Merchant Galley
- Bireme
- Merchant Sail
- Trireme

"Native":
- Warrior
- Axeman (with copper weapons)
- Rider (with horses)
- Swordsman (with iron weapons)

Founding Fathers:
This could either be famous politicans and philosophers of antiquity, or it could be different gods, each of which gives a specific "blessing."

That's splendid, it could be a game about greek colonization, and phoenician expansion too, towards the west. That's excactly how I had in mind it could work.

A phoenician ship could start outside the coast of Tunisia, with a worker and an archer on board.... :) It's also possible to have a market in the east replacing Europe in Col2, if needed.

This sounds like a great idea. I think the map used by thamis along with the way he expressed his suggestions will really excite people about it.

I hope someone with the capability decides to take on this task, particularly given the new Firaxis CivCol modding contest.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=7333641

i can do leaderheads or reuse some of my other ones (attila comes to mind...)

do we need to make units or do we already have them from TAM?

I like the gods idea, not sure we have enough philosophers

i was figuring philosophers can fill the roles of missionaries and have 'civilized barbarians'

can we consolidate the barbarian tribes a bit though (maybe 4 or 5 max?)

I like the idea of having more rather than less barbarians, particularly if one of the maps included in the mod is historical.

One thing that really frustrated me in CivCol was the random placement of native tribes in the Americas map, which could often get as silly as Incas in Canada.

If this gets off the ground, I'd be more then happy to try put greco_roman graphics in the mod.
Btw, with the "Italics" I assume you mean the Latin people (from Latium)?

Hi all ! Just returning like i'am considering buying Civilization IV Colonization...
I don't play Civ4, Warlords or BTS since a while...

I you make a mod which doesnt require other than Colonization i would be happy but i should firstly discovering this current Colonization since i never played this of 1994...

I'm an old member of Civfanatics :goodjob:

Very interesting project!
But do we need any "home countries"? Could we not set this slightly further back in the past before any of the greek city states where established and create a country from start instead of just a colony? Trade routes to the east could be a good idea as a way to send the rarest of your goods to make some money.

What will liberty bells be replaced by though? Lightbulbs to signify philosophical enlightelment? Once you've reached the threshold you become a republic and everyone on the map declares war on you to try to reinstore the old order. Also FF could be replaced by civ style techs in several specialsed fields.

I think that continuing with the home country concept using civilizations like the Greeks and Phoenicians makes a lot of sense and is very consistent with the core game. While I agree that what you're proposing is interesting Olleus, it could be offered as an alternate version.

When we have most of the assets in place (units, leaderheads, city graphics, etc.), it wouldn't take much extra work to make both options.

this is a really cool idea and I would love to see an ancient version of this scenario/stand alone game... :) especially without the American connotations..

Couple of ideas.. The 'home' country concept.

1. Would it be possible to keep 'natives' as they are. relatively peaceful clans, tribes etc. that you can trade with and have limited diplomacy with thus representing the smaller peoples.

2. Fellow competing powers are the same relative kingdoms trying to succeed in power etc.. So full diplomacy, trade and war/peace/alliance etc..

3. Trade off screen can be made to foreign powers 'off' the map as such

4. The ' home' powers are replaced by 'a' or 'some' foreign powers who are that big that you must keep them happy as such so they don't come and wipe you out. The same would apply for other competing powers. The idea is to sort of represent Greeks/Persian war... If you beat them back, you win that round and things are quiet again until next time etc...

They could also represent marauding hordes such as the sea people, huns, mongols etc.. They could invade as such against you or one of the other map powers and decide to go on the rampage against everyone etc.. possibilities..

5. Normal victory conditions like map conquest, holding out foreign powers etc..

6. Like Olleus, FF could be techs which would work.

7. In this manner, it doesn't have to be a Greek/Phoenician dominated things

8. The liberty bells could be replaced with 'power' or 'independence' from tribute to these foreign powers above etc..

9. Like Ekmek, Philosophers instead of missionaries. Others could be religious though also.

I like the idea!

I much prefer the Greek and Phoenician colonization idea.

I much prefer the Greek and Phoenician colonization idea.

why pray tell? I think it locks down the idea into too much of a scenario as such. I have no problem with it being so, it would be cool anyway but I's like to know why you would 'much' prefer the Greek/Phen idea...? :)

Because it keep the basic game concept of Colonization and just transports it into a different era. Having full nations and no home region makes it more like CIV and less like Colonization. We already have a TAM mod for Civ. :-)

Because it keep the basic game concept of Colonization and just transports it into a different era. Having full nations and no home region makes it more like CIV and less like Colonization. We already have a TAM mod for Civ. :-)

This is generally my feeling too.

But what's particularly exciting is that we likely don't have to choose between the two. People on each side of this discussion are in a position to collaborate by putting together the basics including units, city graphics, leaderheads and native tribes. Once we make it that far, it wouldn't require much more effort to create the individual scenarios that will appeal to each group.

But the big question is, do you have anyone here with the technical capability to build (or at least start working on) the mod?

I'm with thamis. I'm going with Greek and Phoenician. once this one is finished it won't be too hard to had Romans, egyptians, etc if people want them. But I'd like to see the basics done first. I already signed up to do all the leaderheads. (see my sig for other work)

I have some experience with coding c++ and python for civ4 mods, although I am very rusty. You can definately count me in on this project.
Also, I think I'm converted to thamis and Stacmon's vew of how this should still be about establishing colonies instead of a whole state. It appears to be a simpler way to start.

cool. give me some leaderheads to start working on!

I think for phoenicians we can use Amra's Hiram (king)with Hannibal and Dido as leaders

But who should we use for the greeks? any leader names and pictures I can go with?

I've just had an idea, rather than having the home nation "off screen" why not actualy have it on the main map. So when the game starts your home civ is somewhere in the corner of the world and your galley is next to some other islands. The map is still completely blacked out, apart from the cities owned by your home nation, and a thin trail of coast which leads to your starting position. That way when you send your ships to "europe" it actualy travels on the map all the way to your home city and only then does it enter the "europe" screen. Would that make it more fun?

i was thining if someone ever ported the colonization code to civ4 you would have to sail or go to the city with palace and hit the trade negotiation button there to open the "europe screen".


I like the idea of having the mother city, but I think in the beginning lets concentrate on adding the ancient med stuff graphically and xml wise, get it playable and then move into code.

I thought I'd chime in and say this mod is a great idea. Unit art conversions from Civ4 take a little work, but are doable.

An idea for an alternative to a war of independence, you could have a major foreign invasion occur in late game that you have to fight off to win.

I've just had an idea, rather than having the home nation "off screen" why not actualy have it on the main map. So when the game starts your home civ is somewhere in the corner of the world and your galley is next to some other islands. The map is still completely blacked out, apart from the cities owned by your home nation, and a thin trail of coast which leads to your starting position. That way when you send your ships to "europe" it actualy travels on the map all the way to your home city and only then does it enter the "europe" screen. Would that make it more fun?

I really like this idea. While limiting the scope of the map to Western Europe/North Africa would still make for a great mod/scenario, I also think that having a "core" area on screen that you actually have to travel to on the map would work out very well. This would really underscore the importance of maritime trade to the growing Mediterranean powers.

There's another advantage to broadening the scope. As thamis's map shows, making a scenario that covers the entire Mediterranean would allow us to also include the Black Sea, Anatolia (modern day Turkey), the Levant (Lebanon/Palestine/Syria), Egypt and Libya. There's no realistic way to do this, without greatly distorting the map, if you want the core areas (Phoenicia and Greece) to be off the screen.

Finally, it would give us a lot more variety and flavour in our native tribes, because we would already have a lot of great, user created or Civ IV assets. Think of Egyptian city sets and units!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/dc/Ancient_colonies.PNG/800px-Ancient_colonies.PNG

ok oka.. people like the Greek/Phoen start initially. thats all good and fine but I thought I'd just propose some modification. I know it would take more work to do what I proposed and I know Thamis that there is already the Anc. Med. mod for Civ4 but I like alot of the mechanics of Colonization that I haven't seen implemented as successfully in Civ4 that would add another demension to Anc. Mod. or equiv. within Colonization.

I think if you could ramp up the war aspect of Col. and simplify the micromanagment of trade a bit, it would be a lot better in fitting this idea.

I suppose also what I ask is it going to be purely based on colonies independence from these states? other victory conditions? Im personally not a fan of the idea of defending against independence from Greek/Pheonician states.. it doesn't seem to fit properly.. if your home land that you could trade with was the Greek/Pheon and the states you were fighting against were someone representative of real power, that would be cool.. maybe greeks and dorian invasion?

regardless it would be good to see an ancient version and I agree, it could be modified later to suit any historical aspect.. :)

I think we should just mod the game as it is currently without changing game dynamics, and then once that is complete, we can go ahead and make something more complex.

I think we should just mod the game as it is currently without changing game dynamics, and then once that is complete, we can go ahead and make something more complex.

sounds good. when do we begin? any leaderhead ideas?

New ones, you mean? For the Phoenicians Hiram I as the motherland king comes to mind.

I plan on using Amra's Hiram for King with HAnnibal and Dido as the colony leaders.

I really need ideas for the greek civs: Ionians, Dorians, Achaeans

For the Dorian 'king', Lycurgus of Sparta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycurgus_of_Sparta) comes to mind. I know he's a bit closer to us then 8th century BC, but did establish the ground work of one of the most important Dorian city states.

Or perhaps Periander of Corinth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periander) would be a better choice, since this city was a maritime power like Athene and founded colonies.

Btw, I'm only posting leaders from which I find some sort of depiction.

For the Ionians, Solon of Athens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solon) comes to mind as 'king'.
Btw, perhaps we should call all the Greek 'homeland' leaders tyrants instead of kings. It seems in this period it was the upcoming title for city leaders.

An Achaean colony leader could be Milo of Crotos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milo_of_Crotone).
Another Achaean colony leader I stumbled upon is Leucippus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leucippus)

Herodotus of Halicarnassus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus) might be usable as a colony leader (Thurii), but likely not as a Achaean leader, since this colony was a mixed affair.

I can't find any Achaean 'king' names from the early Magna Graecia period.

I suppose this (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=293387) could be useful for the mod, if it can be ported? :mischief:

Some great suggestions.

Does anyone know of forum members that are involved with the Civ4 Ancient Mediterranean mod? I'm sure getting in contact with them would be really useful and a few of them may even want to help out with this project.

Thamis is one who posted above. The BTS version of TAM is probably more actively developed, by other modders.

Just my 2cents, I think Phoenecian glass would be a more realistic trade good then clay. And the trade in tin was pretty important, and a good early 'international' trade good.

Erm... I'm the guy who did the Civ4 Ancient Mediterranean mod... Otherwise Shqype is dealign with it right now as well.

I like this idea for a mod. I think the idea about using the whole map is also fine. Now, in order to keep to the spirit of Col, I wonder if it would not make sense - game-wise, that is, not historically, of course - to assign each particular colonizing civ to a homeland far-far-away in the East, that would not show on the map, like in the positions occupied by China, India, Khmer, and so on but with different names.
Why not have as "Europe" a bunch of things called "Proto-Greece", "Proto-Egypt" or something like that?
Just my 2 cents.

Erm... I'm the guy who did the Civ4 Ancient Mediterranean mod... Otherwise Shqype is dealign with it right now as well.

Sorry, I knew your name seemed familiar but now it's very clear why :crazyeye:!

What do Khmer and China have to do with the Ancient Mediterranean? Sorry, I don't understand.

What about founding fathers? We could include:

Aristotle
Homer
Pitagoras (although his existence is disputed)
Plato
Ptah-hotep; Egyptian sage (if the original colonization had Jakob Fugger, who served the Holy Roman Emperor Maximilian of Austria, why can't we have an Egyptian founding father even if Egypt isn't depicted? Besides, it adds to the flavor of the game, without escaping from it's scope)
Socrates

and, if we extend into the roman era:

Marcus Porcius Cato (the Elder); besides advocating the destruction of carthage, he also wrote De Agri Cultura, an agricultural manual, detailing how to run a farm, etc. Written by him is also Origines, a depiction of the history of Rome
Marcus Terentius Varro; wrote an agricultural manual of name Rerum Rusticarum Libri III[i], (of course, probably there were the Libri I and II, but this is the one that reached us) also wrote [i]De Lingua Latina. He studied philosophy in Athens and in politics he reached the position of praetor. Although he was a supporter of Pompey, Caesar put the project of Rome's future library under his care.
Lucius Moderatus Columella; wrote another agricultural manual, De Re Rustica. Served as military tribune in a legion deployed in Syria. Born in Gades, Baetica.
Virgil; wrote the Eneid

If you extend it to the empire, then the politics would be kind of interesting,

e.g.:
Tiberus and Gaius Gracchus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gracchi

And throw in Galen. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galen




Greeks: Hero of Alexandria, Herodotus, Thucydides, Aristophanes, Solon, and Lycurgus.

How could I forget the Gracchus brothers! Another possible founding father is the also tribune Marcus Livius Drusus (he advocated for the other Italic peoples to be given citizenship, was assassinated, and consequently the non-Roman italians rose in revolt).

Do we want founding fathers or more general technologies (which would still be obtained the same way)? I think it might be quite hard to come up with non greek FFs, and especialy very ancient ones, if we want the game to be set between early 6thC BC and Late 3ndC BC to so that it starts with greek cities become powerful and ends with Alexander the Great.

Founding fathers are just too interesting in the game to be discarded. Besides, replacing them with technology would make the game feel a lot more like civ and a lot less like colonization.

meh get rid of the founding fathers. doesn't do much for myself personally and I like the idea of technologies, gods, visionaries.. they're sort of labels anyway so you could use a mixture..

yeah i liked the idea that it was based on "the favor of the gods" so you get Poseidon you get +1 movement etc. We'd probably have to add egyptian gods or use roman and greek gods (i kno they are the same) unless someone has a good list of phoenician gods or the greek god list is long enough for the FFs

I don't think it needs to be either/or regarding techs and founding fathers. I'd think adding one more tab, "Research" and light bulbs would be child's play. The goal points would simply be techs rather than people. Curious though if Civ4Col would support a civ4 tech tree on one of the tabs. Is branching permitted, or perhaps simpler, can pre-reqs be established? E.g. must grab a particular FF to grab the next FF , with regards to the research tab (and of course techs replacing the FFs).

The issue I see that comes up with a "Favour of the Gods" system is that it takes what could be a somewhat historical game (like Colonization in its current setting) and turns it into a fantasy scenario. I'm not sure about the others here, but that's the kind of thing that would turn me off to the mod. I prefer to keep things as accurate as possible.

What do people think of packaging this in a different way. I agree that we probably have too few founding fathers from non-Greek civs, so what about using the current founding fathers framework to allow the colonies to specialize.

Rather than function the way technologies would (recall, that only one civilization can use each founding father), this could help us customize and distinguish between civs (especially if we have more than one from each cultural group, ie: greeks). A player could decide to focus his colonies/new civilization in certain areas, such as trade (ie: earning bonuses like increasing the price of goods sold to the home country), maritime power (ie: increased movement speed of ships, greater withdrawal chance from combat), land power, production of specific goods, etc. Alternatively, they could pick "specializations" (we'd come up with a much better word) from a variety of areas if they wanted to diversify somewhat.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, one avenue that we may want to consider is to set the mod in a time period that allows us to maximize the number of playable civilizations.

I recall a Civ3 scenario (from one of the expansion packs) set in the Mediterranean which had the Greeks, Carthaginians, Romans and Persians all as playable civilizations. Whatever approach we take, I think we have to think long and hard about practical ways that we can increase the number of playable civs to avoid the mod from getting stale too quickly.

A way to overcome the problem of only one player being able to get each founding father / technology is you could have two versions of each tech (or of just the most important ones), one for the person who invents the tech, and one(unresearchable directly) that would be scripted to be given to everyone else whenever someone gets the main one. These would be for things like "Iron Working". Everyone can now mine and work iron into weapons, but the Inventor gets +25% iron production, a free specialist, and the Iron weapons forge building for free.

We can have enough non-greco-roman founding fathers. It just happens that it needs research, specially since there are a lot less people knowledgeable about them than about either greek or roman ones. But it's not like there isn't material out there for us grabbing and putting in the mod.

Technology, if it doesn't exclude the founding fathers, is a nice option; although we have to be careful as to not make the game too "civy".

We can have enough non-greco-roman founding fathers. It just happens that it needs research, specially since there are a lot less people knowledgeable about them than about either greek or roman ones. But it's not like there isn't material out there for us grabbing and putting in the mod.

That's an important point. We simply need people with the drive to do it.

I hope we can get a fair balance between Greek, Phoenician and other founding fathers.

Exactly Stacmon.

By the way, here is a map of Phoenician and Greek colonies:

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o291/Andrelvis/P12-GreekandPhoenicianSettlementsin.jpg

Keep in mind that this map is from 1926, and scientific discoveries may have brought change to our knowledge of the location of their colonies.

I've seen a similar map of the early Islamic Caliphate and it was very useful (probably the same source).

It looks like a great resource for city (colony) names.

The source if the Perry-Castañeda Library online collection; this is part of the Historical Atlas by William R. Shepherd and if anyone is interested, there are more maps of that atlas in this link: http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/history_shepherd_1923.html

Great, thanks for the link :D!

well the FF are just labels.. they're just a pic and text over some advantages and dont really match to the historical timeline of Anc. Med.

Techs and or gods etc. match IMO better in this circumstance.. As far as gods and a fantasy game, they were historical.. not fantasy..

As far as gods and a fantasy game, they were historical.. not fantasy..

Yes, it's true that people believed that those gods existed, but of course that's not the same as saying they actually have any power.

Using gods would be tricky in that if you assign a founding father like benefit called "Poseidon's Favour," which would increase ships movement speed, it's important that this was recognized as symbolism for a civilization specializing in a given area (in this case, sea travel). If it was envisioned such that the exploration points that a player gathered made the god Poseidon want to support the civilization with this added ability, then that in my opinion would turn the game into fantasy. This is because unless you believe the Greek gods were in fact real gods with real powers, you would be adding an element that is not based in historical fact.

well the FF are just labels.. they're just a pic and text over some advantages and dont really match to the historical timeline of Anc. Med.

Techs and or gods etc. match IMO better in this circumstance.. As far as gods and a fantasy game, they were historical.. not fantasy..

Well, but they are labels that evoke a certain "feel" in people's minds and that matters quite a lot. Besides, the FFs match very well to the ancient world, in which we had individual personalities be much more important than in the modern era.

Using gods would be tricky in that if you assign a founding father like benefit called "Poseidon's Favour," which would increase ships movement speed, it's important that this was recognized as symbolism for a civilization specializing in a given area (in this case, sea travel).

thats the way i saw it, not the fantasy way of powers. If anything the way FF is handled now with +1 sea mvement its acts like favor, one person alone cant make all ships better. I figured instead of text like" X joins your causes" we'd have" It appears we have poseidon's blessings" or "the priests say Aphrodite looks favourably upon or colonies" and the like.

Also, if people that Poseidon loves them, they might be more daring in their seamanship, thus sailing faster. Those who believe that Mars loves them fight more recklessly and thus win, etc... I think the gods are good, as they reflect the mindset of the period.

We could take Greek and Phoenician/Mesopotamian gods. I can make a list.

Yes, it's true that people believed that those gods existed, but of course that's not the same as saying they actually have any power.

Using gods would be tricky in that if you assign a founding father like benefit called "Poseidon's Favour," which would increase ships movement speed, it's important that this was recognized as symbolism for a civilization specializing in a given area (in this case, sea travel). If it was envisioned such that the exploration points that a player gathered made the god Poseidon want to support the civilization with this added ability, then that in my opinion would turn the game into fantasy. This is because unless you believe the Greek gods were in fact real gods with real powers, you would be adding an element that is not based in historical fact.

I think you underestimate the impact of religion to ones psyche. God(s) and religion do have power, even if it's not in a direct way. If people believe, they can and will do great things towards their aims and goals envisioned. This is true about most things in life, not just religion. If religion and gods are used as a basis, civilisations can be seen, as thamis and ekmek mentioned above, as sea folk (Poseidon) etc.. farming folk, warrior folk and given bonuses towards these goals..

Androrc, labels obviously matter otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion but in the grand scale of the game concerning the FF screen, they are just labels, pics and bonuses. I just believe that gods/techs lebels would better illustrate the 'feel' of the timeframe better than the concept of the FF label and the numerable individual names that Col. uses.

the other thing I like concerning the FF screen, is that your options are based off your actual actions and decisions in accruing points towards the bonuses.

If this system was ported to Civ 4 or changed within Col. to a Tech Tree, it would make for a very interesting idea IMO...

I think we're generally all on the same page here.

As I was saying, as long as these "Founding Fathers/gods" are symbolic, it's totally different than one of the god's actually granting men their power.

thamis offered an example of how this can be conceived of in the game:

...if people [believe] that Poseidon loves them, they might be more daring in their seamanship, thus sailing faster.

We're basically discussing semantics. I agree with others that integrating the area's mythology is a good approach and a viable alternative to the founding fathers system in CivCol. I also prefer it over the "technology" approach (as we'd get closer and closer to blurring the lines between this game and Civ4).

We're basically discussing semantics.

agreed.. :goodjob:

Androrc, labels obviously matter otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion but in the grand scale of the game concerning the FF screen, they are just labels, pics and bonuses. I just believe that gods/techs lebels would better illustrate the 'feel' of the timeframe better than the concept of the FF label and the numerable individual names that Col. uses.

That's exactly where I disagree. There is scarcely a time when individuals mattered so much as this one; we would end up just not representing at all the plethora of important men and women that lived in that era, from Plato to Titus Livius.

as long as these "Founding Fathers/gods" are symbolic, it's totally different than one of the god's actually granting men their power.
If it was the same game mechanic either way, I wouldn't consider it totally different at all.

it's important that this was recognized as symbolism for a civilization specializing in a given area ... [rather than] the god Poseidon want[ing] to support the civilization with this added ability
To me, that would not be at all important one way or the other.

It may be important to you. That's fine. My point is that it's subjective and that my perspective, for example, is different.

To Jet above:

Fair points :).

"Gods" may be tricky, because of their cultural identity. It would be rather strange for Mesopotamians to worship Zeus, or for Greek to have a Bhall's blessing...

That's a good point, but using that same line of thinking, isn't it also very strange when the Dutch have English, French or Spanish founding fathers in the standard game?

"Gods" may be tricky, because of their cultural identity. It would be rather strange for Mesopotamians to worship Zeus, or for Greek to have a Bhall's blessing...

If you do your research you'd find that view very wrong... just remember that names are language specific but are still only labels...

That's a good point, but using that same line of thinking, isn't it also very strange when the Dutch have English, French or Spanish founding fathers in the standard game?

Not really. Some of those served many nations during their lifetime. Having the Greeks, a people not only proud of their culture, but actually quite xenophobic, worship gods of other seems strange at the very least.

Similar to Darkhour's point, gods and beliefs in ancient times were incorporated and assimilated by various peoples. Although the process was slow and gradual, there was some fluidity.

Regarding founding fathers working for several nations, that is true in a few cases, but not for the majority of the founding fathers we are talking about in Colonization.

I'll agree though that the gods approach is definitely more of a stretch than founding fathers!

Not really. Some of those served many nations during their lifetime. Having the Greeks, a people not only proud of their culture, but actually quite xenophobic, worship gods of other seems strange at the very least.


In Alexander's day it was changed to Zues-Ammon. And a lot of the stories of the greek gods came from lands outside the greek pennisula indicating they came from other cultures. Plus polytheism was easily allowed for syncretism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syncretic_religion#Religious_syncretism), unlike today's monotheistic and book based religions

In Alexander's day it was changed to Zues-Ammon. And a lot of the stories of the greek gods came from lands outside the greek pennisula indicating they came from other cultures. Plus polytheism was easily allowed for syncretism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syncretic_religion#Religious_syncretism), unlike today's monotheistic and book based religions

The gods that came from other lands were only incorporated gradually, through contact with those cultures. There was nothing like the Roman syncretism in Greece. Likewise, it would make no sense at all for the Egyptians to worship Zeus or Poseidon. As for Alexander's day's example, well, that is more likely an exception (and a very rare one, while we're at it) than the rule; Alexander is known too for forcibly integrating cultures. Further, that kind of syncretism seems to happen in that era only in large land empires, not in sea empires of city-states.

At any rate, does it really need to be Gods or FFs? The Tech/FF screen is already well-modded with tabs, so just create some relevant new point system (light bulbs, piety, whatever) add in all the concept you want.

Probably the Spaceship/Chamber of FFs screen could be modded to be telescoping into categories (like the Civ4 Civics screen) as well to allow choosing a god from a list, a set of FFs, a set of technology/unit specializations, and so on.

I think Colonization modding is very far from zero sum design approach.

At any rate, does it really need to be Gods or FFs? The Tech/FF screen is already well-modded with tabs, so just create some relevant new point system (light bulbs, piety, whatever) add in all the concept you want.

Probably the Spaceship/Chamber of FFs screen could be modded to be telescoping into categories (like the Civ4 Civics screen) as well to allow choosing a god from a list, a set of FFs, a set of technology/unit specializations, and so on.

I think Colonization modding is very far from zero sum design approach.

:goodjob: You're right.

At any rate, does it really need to be Gods or FFs? The Tech/FF screen is already well-modded with tabs, so just create some relevant new point system (light bulbs, piety, whatever) add in all the concept you want.

Probably the Spaceship/Chamber of FFs screen could be modded to be telescoping into categories (like the Civ4 Civics screen) as well to allow choosing a god from a list, a set of FFs, a set of technology/unit specializations, and so on.

I think Colonization modding is very far from zero sum design approach.

no.. but it's more work.. :D

what's the state of this mod? Is there an alpha version available for download?

AFAIK, nobody took this mod up. ;)

I would but I have absolutely no free time at the moment what so ever. I'll be able to help from xmas onwards with python and xml, but I simply can't be the project leader for something as big as this. If someone takes this up, i will help them though.

AFAIK, nobody took this mod up. ;)

Well, I have :)

I'm hoping to have a beta out in a week or two.

what it will be:

#1Very basic (for now). I'm calling it Mare Nostrum - yeah I know the romans called the med that and in my first beta there won't be Romans. i'm going under the premise that you'll want to make the mediterranean your sea.

#2 In this beta it will essentially be just a graphical and textual mod for Colonization. The units, cities, resources, professions, and buildings will be Ancient Greek in flavor but it will be the basic Colonization II game.


WHERE ITS AT NOW
Most Units replaced
Most resources graphically replaced
Only have the Phoenicians/Punic Colonies done


TO DO
Add in other Civs: Achaeans, Dorians, and I'm adding Troy (a What-If Civ that'll have Rome as its colony)

TO DO(maybe not in this beta)
Add unit diversity. Add barbarian units (you can see I'm having some problems

Add in Dales AOD2. I want the economic victory condition especially.

WHAT I NEED

Mostly more HELP!

I need some one that can redo the screens to be Ancient in flavor

A map script that cuts out the artic and jungle terrains (don't know how to do that)
A map script that will make a map with terrain split like the north and southern parts of the med (big terrain in north and bg terrain south)


I'll take input and suggestions - but since its a one man show now can't promise anything. My goal is to get a beta out and hopefully inspire some people to help.

Current screenies attached.

Although this mod concept sounds very cool, IMHO it just wouldn't work for Civ4Col.
Why?

Because Civ4Col works on the underlying premise that the home countries are far away from the areas being colonized. They don't appear on the map, and are only represented in an abstract way by sailing to the Europe screen.

So I just don't see how you can graphically represent colonizing the entire mediterranean basin with the home countries situated smack dab in the middle of the map.

In theory, you could mod Civ4Col so that home countries are actually represented by cities on the map, with their own production of resources. But then, who would you sell your production to? And the home countries should have a massively larger production capacity than the colonies themselves. Modelling this in Civ4Col terms is just not possible. IMHO, at least.

This concept works great for Civ4. Not for Civ4Col.

Just my 2 gold pieces worth, --- Wheldrake

Ackk!

I hope this doesn't get dropped - it sounds way too cool! I wish I knew something about modding so I could help out...

I'll gladly test the Beta when available.

Although this mod concept sounds very cool, IMHO it just wouldn't work for Civ4Col.
Why?

Because Civ4Col works on the underlying premise that the home countries are far away from the areas being colonized. They don't appear on the map, and are only represented in an abstract way by sailing to the Europe screen.

So I just don't see how you can graphically represent colonizing the entire mediterranean basin with the home countries situated smack dab in the middle of the map.

In theory, you could mod Civ4Col so that home countries are actually represented by cities on the map, with their own production of resources. But then, who would you sell your production to? And the home countries should have a massively larger production capacity than the colonies themselves. Modelling this in Civ4Col terms is just not possible. IMHO, at least.

This concept works great for Civ4. Not for Civ4Col.

Just my 2 gold pieces worth, --- Wheldrake

I'll take you off the list of potential contributors ;)

Ackk!

I hope this doesn't get dropped - it sounds way too cool! I wish I knew something about modding so I could help out...

I'll gladly test the Beta when available.

I'm still working it.

just an update.

Still in work on the graphics. I've opted to change the founding fathers to techs (I want religious cults but there is way to many of them)

-I still need to finish full body icons (many there is a lot of them).
-I've ended up making a few new units (a Great General based off the phalanx looks cool)
and need to do more for the farmer, lumberjack, miner, indentured servant
-some units may not look different enough but should be okay for a beta
-city graphics are in.
-some more leaders finished (troy).
-I might have less barbarians this time around until I dig up leaders.
-i mmight skip on doing building graphics for the beta though names are there
-the dreaded gamefont.tga awaits

Although this mod concept sounds very cool, IMHO it just wouldn't work for Civ4Col.
Why?

Because Civ4Col works on the underlying premise that the home countries are far away from the areas being colonized. They don't appear on the map, and are only represented in an abstract way by sailing to the Europe screen.
I'll take you off the list of potential contributors ;)

I've been giving some thought to making a mod where home countries are indeed visible in the map, and I think it is viable. I was not thinking in an ancient setting though.

I think it would work if the home port area would be surrounded with the "europe high seas" plots and the travel time reduced to one turn or so, simulating a sort of docking procedure in a busy port, or a delay in customs if you will.

However, I don't know how it would work with moving into town with a ship and trying to start trading that way. Maybe that should just be disabled with the a message that they don't support any kind of a black market :D

You could also tweak it so that the home countries can't settle new towns, and their influence borders would prevent you from doing so in the vicinity as well.

Hope this helps or gives you ideas. I'd like to see something come out of this.

thx.. I hoping to post a working beta today or tomorrow (need to see if i can fix some city graphics) it wont be perfect but playable and hopefully inspires more assistance (koma is helping now)

I like the idea and im nosy how it will play.

First BETA is out:

Mare Nostrum Thread here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=311727)

Hi

Any one add persian colonization in ancient worlds?
Such as their colonization in India , Oman , Yeman , North of Africa!
Any one can help me to make this scenario?
http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/india_parthian_colony1.php

Thanks

Mare Nostrum now has a project mod & devlopment forum.

Please help out!

http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=347

This mod would work as concept for Colonization. The idea is to use the Phoenicians as the home-base empire, as that is historically true. They were based in Lebanon, so instead of having the whole med-sea area; just have the western area, Spain, Tunisia, and Italy, Greece and Lybia.. with the ships coming from Lebanon. I had problems with Colonization saving games etc. on my computer, but there are some user-made patches that i have downloaded, so the game might work if i try it again.
I started some investigation into modding Total War Med-2, but there is a map-editor provided already for Colonization, and the concept is better to create a Phoenician mod, which is my main interest.(i find all the battles in Total War tedious, an end up auto-resolving everything). I'll have another look at this game, and see if i can work on a map of the west mediterranean..

Here's my idea. When you decleare independence, you kind of start the age of the Empires (the rise of the roman empire in real history). So many other nations, who dont want a great empire, would decleare war on you to stop the rise of the new Empire (again refering to the rise of the roman empire). So then you could make it kind of historical in the end...

Hope you like the idea :)