I can only assume someone has already placed a request or even started a mod for this, but have not found a thread on it in this subforum.

Just in case it hasn't been brought up, what are the possibilities of being able to play as the Natives? Victory conditions could be something like "eliminate all European settlements", or a "land domination" victory, or something.

Anyone care to discuss this?

Dale's has you playing as the pirates, but I haven't seen one with play as Natives yet. Certainly an interesting idea, though :)

They're not very playable. You can't really build anything, can't earn money, and the only thing you can do is collect food and breed. :lol:

But if you want to, open Civ4CivilizationInfos.xml and change the pPlayable tag from 0 to 1. :)

Try a European nation, now that's interesting. ;)

Well, I mean, errr... hmmm... if the infrastructure isn't there for them to be able to do much, it might be better done as an expansion idea for the future.

"Col2: Montezuma's Revenge!"

Give them the ability to have their own improvements, etc... some sort of balance to the European powers.

You could probably mod in the victory as you describe, and I imagine the 'ability' to do things exists - you just have to give them the various flags that let them do things.

The question is, does it make sense to ... but that's up to you.

You could probably mod in the victory as you describe, and I imagine the 'ability' to do things exists - you just have to give them the various flags that let them do things.

The question is, does it make sense to ... but that's up to you.

Yeah, see, there's the thing... at first I was going to suggest giving them the ability to create lumber mills, etc, like the Euro-Colonies... but then, like you said, it just didn't make much sense.

But, say there were an expansion that allowed for different types of things... like an archery range that automatically granted combat promotions, a pit that provided melee promotions, or a Medicine Lodge that provided Medic Promotions... etc... unique buildings and units that were specific to the NA-Colonies that EU-Colonies did not get.

This 'expansion' sounds like a user mod to me... ;) None of that would be all that hard to do.

It wouldn't? That's good news. I honestly wouldn't know as I've never modded Civ-related files before. I've got oodles of respect for the modders though, and the devs for that matter. Anyone with that kind of dedication to the game deserves some serious Whuffie.

Adding new buildings is as simple as typing in the XML file. That's simple. :) You still have to have art for them, or utilize already existing art, which is usually the more difficult part, of course; but if you aren't pick about things, it's pretty easy.

Another problem with playing the Natives is that you have fore knowledge of the impending doom of your culture by europeans. They would be so easy to take out in the early game. Why would you try to make friends with them? The game would have to be set up so that you don't actually have control of your citizens, which might not be very fun. It might be possible to make such a game interesting, but there would be huge gameplay design challenges.

That's no different than the natives being wiped out by a player early on... counterbalance it with the diplo penalties and the other natives and AIs out there :)

That's no different than the natives being wiped out by a player early on... counterbalance it with the diplo penalties and the other natives and AIs out there :)

That's pretty difficult though wouldn't you say? The first two guys off the boat aren't going to wipe out the indians, what's to protect them?

Oh, you'd kill the first civ pretty quickly; just like you'd kill the first native tribe fairly quickly if you are reasonably competent. It's after that, where you'd have a problem. The other native tribes, who might have been friendly with that tribe, will have a negative diplo modifier with you, as would the AI european civs... and after the first, I imagine you'd have a hard time beating Euros without trading with them for guns and horses.

I imagine the true key to victory would be trading with a european tribe for guns and horses, and trying to eliminate the other NATIVE tribes, and then turning on the euros. But who knows ...

I'd rather see an Indian Federation victory, like in Conquest of the New World. To win, vassal 3 other tribes.

Could always try and adopt some of the code in the Rhye's and Fall mod, set it up so that NA civs start up after around 100 turns of autoplay.. Should be near an equal footing.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=292751

this will allow you to play as anyone

Yes, that will allow you to play as any civ.... But there are no victory conditions set up for the natives, and no real economy.

As it stands, there's not much point to play the natives. It'd be a pretty shallow gaming experience, since they can't build anything but braves unless the Europeans give them guns and horses. And even then, there's not much you can do except harrass and destroy the foreigners (which could prove very easy, given the current state of the AI). Diplomacy with other tribes would be extremely limited, as there's no trade nor anything that can influence it besides relations and conflict with the Europeans.

So, on the whole, a lot of work is needed to make playing the natives half as deep and interesting as playing the colonials.

So, on the whole, a lot of work is needed to make playing the natives half as deep and interesting as playing the colonials.

It might be a worthwhile mod, though. (Maybe base it on how Age of Empires III thematically handled native nations?) But I would really think it would have to wait until some of the key aspects of the main game are cleaned up in patches.

For a native victory condition, you would probably have to do a 'domination' victory. They would probably play a lot closer to a Civ4 'pre-industrial' nation, with pretty limited variance on unit types, and completely different building sets.

Yes, of course, this would be funnier. I was rather disappointed to see that i could not play as an A.N. nation.

I have always wanted to play the natives, since the old game. The key is of course to balance the natives so they get interesting and playable but not to powerful to kick the Europeans too easy. I have some ideas on this, but I am not skilled in coding.

1. Civilization, in the old game there were three levels of how civilized the natives were. Nomads, Semi-agricultural and civilized (camp, village, city). The higher civ rank - higher defense bonus in the town. This could be like a city wall based on civilization points, which only can be build if the city fulfill some requirements, ie try to move up on the civ - ladder. This could be money, population, resources, diplomatic relations, warriors in town and so on.

2. Settlers, some natives that were agriculturally orientated where forced from their lands and had to move from their villages on the east coast and live as nomads on the great planes of the west. This could be represented by being able to build new nomad camps, instead of just being exterminated (if some units survived), even if the tribe were civilized at first. But then have to start all over again on the civilization ladder in every new camp. Every nativ unit should therfore be able to build a town.

3. Tribes, try to differentiate the tribes. They are not all the same. Each tribe should have some special differences. Inca have food (can build farms perhaps), and Sioux have horses (able to build stables for instance).

4. Predetermined the size of the starting native tribe. How many cities they can control, and make it hard to expand that number. So that a tribe cant have cities on the entire continent. This will also make the tribes more balanced, high civilized tribes receive few cities to start with, and nomads get more camps to start with. But they should also being able to take control of an enemy native town instead of burning it.

5. City screen, it should look just like for the Europeans (would be nice with tents instead of buildings of course). But the main thing is the same, building orders, export/import, resources in stock, production and defenders. More buildings should unlock when they move up on the civ ladder (after the city wall-like thing is built). A camp should only be able to produce basic goods and one or two mid level good special for that tribe (horses for Sioux). A village should be able to produce basic and mid-level goods in basic houses, and city should be able to produce basic, mid-level goods in shops and high-level goods.

6. Resources. Basic goods are the ones you gather outside the settlement (except for silver). Mid level goods are those that can be made from the basic goods (plus silver). High level goods can not be made from any other goods, knowledge, cross, bells (but named something else of course).

7. Diplomacy is odd, since the natives will most probably not offend the Europeans but the other way around. So therefore the game could create struggle to keep the young warriors in line when more Europeans disembark in the new world and cutting down the trees.
When a scout arrives it is a great opportunity to buy some good will or just show the nearby lands.

8. Military, as we know the natives have four military units: brave, armed brave, mounted brave and mounted warrior. To keep the balance of the game, not much should be made here. But some new promotions would be interesting. Raider: steal some goods inside the settlement (like privateers against other ships). Each native unit should be able to carry one goods unit, one more with a promotion. Treat all squares as roads would be nice.

9. Education, the Europeans will send colonists to the native towns in order to train them into an experts. The natives must of course benefit from this in some way, besides the attitude bonus towards that nation.

10. Religion, if a missionary is present in town, it should affect the town a lot. A small, one man church should be built automatically. It should then have the effect the bells have on the Europeans, but it is Christianity that is raised and not liberty, with the same bonuses.

The idea with this mod would be to not upset the balance and give the natives a reason to act like the do when they are controlled by the computer (ie give away stuff, sell land, educate colonists, give money to scouts, trade and so on) when they are controlled by a human.

If anyone finds my ideas interesting feel free to act on them. This would be a nice mod I think.

I too would love to see a mod which incorporates this. As above, the natives should not be made unrealistically more powerful, nor should they be able to become more powerful other than through realistic means (i.e., acquiring guns/horses yes, experienced units have distinct advantages in the wild etc, but not by building European-like rum distilleries or tobacco shops). I think the great gaming challenge here is to see if you can somehow thwart the European advance using only the means at your disposal while keeping your culture intact (even if adapted to some European ways, through trade/religion/etc). This should be a much more difficult victory than playing as the colonists, certainly (there is no Europe to trade with early on to bail you out).

New victory condition(s) would be needed, obviously, since there is no one to rebel against. Something similar to liberty bells (sun wheels?) could be generated, for a culture/point type victory. Sun wheel accumulation should alarm colonists *greatly* especially if relations aren't good. Sun wheels could be awarded for many things, such as a successful raid, a victory in battle, trade relations, etc., not just simply generated by elders in a tribal equivalent of a state bldg.

Also, horses were not found in the New World until colonists brought them. So, horses must be acquired through trade, theft, or eventually escaped horses will establish on appropriate terrain in the wild. Other resources should mean more to natives than to colonists and have some different/additional uses: cocoa, corn, bison, forests produced medicine and food in addition to building supplies, etc.

ANother feature to consider: have the timeline start some years prior to the arrival of the European colonists. Not so that the natives become uber-powerful (remember: no guns, no horses, units are all the same strength, etc) but so that trade relations can be established among the tribes prior to the arrival of the Europeans.

I like your idea with sun wheel! It could be generated exactly like bells, but to get the foundings fathers you need other points too, militaric, trade and so on. Maybe they could be used too?
Natives must be able to generate founding fathers!

Yes horses could not be found in the new world before the spanish. Therfore nobody can build stables before they have got horses from the europeans.

But I dont think the timeline should start ealier. Trade realtions can be made during the same timeframe as the europeans. It is also a time for exploration for the natives.

It should be two ways of winning; Keep the religion and cultur or "westernize". Westernization is becoming christian and getting more converted natives and western products.

I can't speak for Native Americans, let alone for what they were thinking during this time frame, but I do wonder whether they would consider "westernization" as a victory condition? I can foresee a victory condition where native-religion/culture is preserved (i.e. accumulated) and that various forms of westernization lead to various side benefits (including the benefit of not getting slaughtered by the colonial powers because you are "becoming civilized", trading with them, helping them in their wars, etc). If some sort of point-victory comes from westernization, and the culture type victory is akin to winning the WoI, that might work here.

By earlier, the timeline doesn't have to start like 100s of years earlier. But I think that some amount of trade/contact/history-of-interacting should occur before colonial ships appear on the horizon. Maybe 10-20 turns would be a sufficient head start. Remember that the colonials start with one trade network already intact on day-one. And the local map should be known to the natives, it shouldn't all be some big black box (perhaps visibility for native scouts is much greater also?).

Definitely a Founding Fathers corollary, though it could be cultural milestones so as not to limit it to various people/leaders. Adding in things like the Iroquoi Confederacy and Sioux Horse Culture (and even Aztec sacrifices, e.g. as an effect not a playable activity) would add nice flavor and playability.

Didn't have time to think it through in much detail, but to expand upon the idea of the tiered approach to different tribes (nomadic, agricultural, builders, etc): the Inca/Aztecs should start with their pyramid-like temples in their main city(s) (and not be able to build more of them during this timeframe without massive societal mobilization); the nomadic tribes could have a modified wagon (more slots, much smaller capacity). Tribes could get bonuses for the terrain that they frequent: tundra-type tribes can glean more resources from frozen terrain than other tribes; jungle-tribes have jungle benefits, etc. Not just in terms of say baseline unit promotions, but currently-intangible things like forests providing food in-addition-to lumber (and something like medicine, which native cultures were proficient at and colonists were not, at least not until they learned it from natives). Perhaps nomadic tribes could be more adaptive, and can adopt local-environment benefits after living in an area for a while. I'd like to see coastal tribes have fishing benefits and some form of coastal (non-oceanic) sea travel. Same for the Great Lakes (if, ahem, the map actually had the Great Lakes). A canoe unit which can carry one land unit as well as small-slots for cargo (like the nomadic wagon) would be nifty.

Dunno how many tribes are currently in the game, but these could be the playable ones. Smaller non-playable tribes (max 1-2 settlements each, no expansion) could be added for flavor/challenge/trade (natives could conceiveably learn from other natives and could perhaps forge alliances, leading to the cultural-type victory). Populating the Caribbean at the start would be nice, at least the largest islands anyway.

Perhaps there should also be some sort of military victory condition, though it could also be a part of the cultural one and that might be most straightforward. Certainly, any tribe that casts European invaders back into the sea from whence they came would be viewed with much awe/favor by other natives (and much fear by other colonists -- how to build that in? can the colonists ask for protection? same for natives fearing colonial aggressors).

Sidenote: to avoid the unpleasantness of losing 80-90% of the native population to European diseases, I guess the assumption is that native populations have already been decimated by the time the timeline of the game starts, but this could still allow the game for the native player to start 10-20 turns earlier. So, 'large/sophisticated' civilizations like the Aztec and Inca could start with some cities that have a fair amount of infrastructure but low population. Could also toss in Mayan/Anasazi/other ruins for fun.

To expand on the last point: burial mounds which Europeans pillage for treasure -- natives should get cultural points for protecting these, and relations with Europe should deteriorate due to the desecration (at least for AI native tribes, some loss of cultural points should affect the native player civ).

Cultural points should help prevent natives leaving the village to go live with the colonials. Very-high cultural points could lead some colonials to come live permanently with the natives (think "Dances With Wolves"). Missionaries use up some local food while in the village (include option to expell or kill the missionary); natives would benefit with some amount of education and additional knowledge of the colonials (maps for example, glimpses of trade info) in addition to 'getting religion' which presumably helps in relations with colonials.

Does it make sense to have a dynamic where natives can go live-among-the-colonials to learn some skill (e.g. the high-end ones like rum distillery, blacksmithing, etc.)? Colonials would be loath to allow this of course, unless relations were very very good, since it would eventually undercut their trade monopoly.

How about being able to at least hire or recruit some native allies to your cause without a defense pact? I think the idea of having armed braves on your side would add a touch of historical accuracy.

The diseases should accrue, since it hit hard against the natives during the 16th and 17th century and it therefore played a major roll.

The Inca and Aztec should be the two easiest natives to play. Both had roads connecting all there cites, the same paved roads like the Romans, and both had great irrigated farmlands working because of the well structured watering systems and aqueducts. The Incas were more peaceful and master weavers and farmers, with diplomacy in focus. The Aztecs were warriors that used sacrifice to please the gods (and then also encourage the workers to work harder). Both tribes used captive enemy natives as slaves (the Aztec sacrificed them also).
Both tribes had fortified cities in stone unlike all the other tribes in the new world.

This should not be too hard to implement, give them the ability to use pioneers and start with roads connecting all the cities and some farmlands around their cities. Give the Aztecs a building were they can sacrifice goods and units (disbanding them in town to generate hammers and culture). The Incas should have master farmers and weavers. The Aztecs might have more generals.

New victory condition(s) would be needed, obviously, since there is no one to rebel against. Something similar to liberty bells (sun wheels?) could be generated, for a culture/point type victory. Sun wheel accumulation should alarm colonists *greatly* especially if relations aren't good. Sun wheels could be awarded for many things, such as a successful raid, a victory in battle, trade relations, etc., not just simply generated by elders in a tribal equivalent of a state bldg.
would this be a cultural victory for one tribe/nation or for the Indian nations as a whole?

from the natives' point of view any encroachment of Europeans into their former hunting grounds is a loss, but historically most tribes were not united into confederacies

hence one tribe by itself cannot "win". to play as a native tribe you would have to cooperate with all the other native tribes to achieve an overall cultural (sun disk) victory

Yes, you can easily adjust the XML to play as any civ, including the native Americans and Europeans.... But there are no victory conditions set up for the natives, and no real economy.
as it stands the game dynamics encourage Europeans to trade with the natives until their tribal funds are empty, use their villages to train Eur colonists in uniquely native skills such as cotton planter, and then wipe them out totally to gain XP or valuable land they do not have to pay for

one way to make the natives more useful to the Europeans is make the natives want to buy European finished goods as must as much as guns and horses. however this would make the natives tribally bankrupt even faster than the vanilla game

the key imbalance is that in the vanilla game the Europeans do not need to buy anything from the natives to keep the native tribal fund from easily going to zero other than furs, ore, or silver at bargain basement prices to sell to Europe

suggestions to items the natives have the Europeans want -
rush bought native trained colonists, rush bought converted natives, area maps, squaws, casino gambling (I know, anachronistic. the latter would be effective at generating cash for the natives and "happiness" for the Europeans, a latent concept in Civ 4 that can be restored to C4C)

has anyone one done a mod along these lines? are the changes mainly in xml or do they require new dll's?

I have posted a mini mod of viable natives

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=304042