Tet, you've just made me sooooo happy! :-D

Originally posted by teturkhan
All I can say is when this gets posted – TEST IT!!! :)


Hmmm, we shouldn't have a problem doing that ;)

Will you at lest keep us vaguely informed about what your working on at the moment so we can discuss/praise it and not have the thread go blank until November?

Originally posted by BobTheTerrible
Will you at lest keep us vaguely informed about what your working on at the moment so we can discuss/praise it and not have the thread go blank until November?

I agree;) (TET hint, hint)

You people are the most loyal supporters of this mod and for that I salute you. :worshp:
Currently at this very moment I am synchronizing all 3 versions of the mod. Its not exciting work more tedious to be honest but it needs to be done. Keep in mind this is version 1.9 – somewhat watered down until 2.0 which I am hopeful will come out on the “Best of the Net” CD included in Conquests. That version will have additional input and support by some of the top mod makers online and it will deliver something that all of you should be pleased with. :)

thank you TET!!

Some people have complained its too unrealistic to have Dinosaurs in the game – and you can't argue with that :D

…but reason I put them was to serve as comic relief - they usually don't make a dent in the game... what do you people think?

Dinosaurs IN or Dinosaurs OUT?
(I could consider jungle animals instead - Lions, Tigers & Elephants??)

Originally posted by teturkhan
Dinos IN or Dinos OUT?

In - I think it's a good idea and if people don't like it they can delete themin the .bix themselves (it's harder to add them if you remove them)

Originally posted by teturkhan
Some people have complained its too unrealistic to have Dinosaurs in the game – and you can't argue with that :D

…but reason I put them was to serve as comic relief - they usually don't make a dent in the game... what do you people think?

Dinosaurs IN or Dinosaurs OUT?
(I could consider jungle animals instead - Lions, Tigers & Elephants??) I dont like them, though jungle animals does´nt sound to bad. I would still prefer human tribes though(congo etc.).

Originally posted by teturkhan
Some people have complained its too unrealistic to have Dinosaurs in the game – and you can't argue with that :D

…but reason I put them was to serve as comic relief - they usually don't make a dent in the game... what do you people think?

Dinosaurs IN or Dinosaurs OUT?
(I could consider jungle animals instead - Lions, Tigers & Elephants??)

Dinosaurs IN :goodjob:

Originally posted by teturkhan
Dinosaurs IN or Dinosaurs OUT?
(I could consider jungle animals instead - Lions, Tigers & Elephants??)

I like the dino's in. Jungle animals seems a bad idea. If you add those you might as well add predators all over the world.

Sorry Yoda - lucky you know your way around the editor :)

I will leave them in...
BTW any suggestions let me know now cause it will be months before you see version 2.0 ;)

my vote is to keep the dino's IN

I like the dinos! They're silly, and that's the point. Jungle animals woul;d be too borderline realistic that it would be odd... keep the dinos! :-)

(Human tribes sound neat tho)

Originally posted by teturkhan
Sorry Yoda - lucky you know your way around the editor :)

I will leave them in...
BTW any suggestions let me know now cause it will be months before you see version 2.0 ;) :cry:

i´ll just mod them out..

TeT, a big thumbsup for deciding to release 1.9 :goodjob:

and yay! dinos, gotta stay - although I will not object if you also add other beasties :D And I'll be sure to test as soon as you release!

Originally posted by teturkhan
That version will have additional input and support by some of the top mod makers online...

I think we are looking right at one of the top mod makers online!


Hey tet, just wondering, did you put a "camel" rescource in? Just wondering if my idea got through or not.

Please show your support for the Best of the Net Mod CD we are hoping will be included with Conquests.

You can vote by clicking the link provided below.

I need some help. Those of you who know the mod well please assist me with the following – I would do it but I just don’t have the time to go looking through all the forums for material.

1. Units that you feel will be great additions to the mod, including multi-figure ones.
2. Resources that could be added or adjusted along with city improvements and techs.
3. Graphic mods for terrain, cities, or anything else for that matter really that you like

The only criteria is that the work you recommend is top notch.

Thanks!

If you need some units from around 17th/18th centuries, and they are in the game Cossacks, well then go here to get them. I don't know how important any of these units can be, but I'm sure you can find a use for at least one.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=48473

I truly appreciate all your work, been going thru hell to get PTW to work. If not for your scenarios I would of given up trying.

I think 99% of the changes you made or units created are great.

My question is if there is a way to play America. I saw the changes you made to the F-15 and was looking forward to using it.

I probably missed a post about this or haven't played enough, so I apologize in advance.


Thanks, JB


:die: :band: :ar15:

Merged jbprivate's post into this thread. Deleted all the semi-spam about it being in the wrong forum :mischief:

About new stuff :

City graphics

I kind of like these ones really much (desert ones by mrtn)
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53138

Units :

Asian sea unit by agloo (treasure ship in progress and turtleship already done at http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53355).

And except for copyright issues (CD), The Cossacks conversions (janissary for instance is great) thread has nice units.

Well, I come late to this great map. Took a couple of days to read through the 276 pages ---
Playing as Greek, monarh, now at 330AD. Russia is just behind me on the histograph. Probably reflects her land, not real power, but she has not been attacked or discouraged.
India suddenly declared war on my last night. She is No 1, and all her neighbors were happy to ally with me against her. Persia turned around and got Arabia and Spain to join.. And I am currently at war with Spain....:D

Originally posted by jbprivate
I truly appreciate all your work, been going thru hell to get PTW to work. If not for your scenarios I would of given up trying.

I think 99% of the changes you made or units created are great.

My question is if there is a way to play America. I saw the changes you made to the F-15 and was looking forward to using it.

I probably missed a post about this or haven't played enough, so I apologize in advance.


Thanks, JB


:die: :band: :ar15:

French, and England use the F-15, if I am not mistaken.:)

Originally posted by Bobisback


French, and England use the F-15, if I am not mistaken.:)




Yup they have them in this mod, although..

www.defence.gouv.fr/air/avion/avion.html (french airforce website)

That is the aircraft that the french military uses of their own. Althought i am sure they have F-15s they probably mostly use their own aircraft. It would be cool if we had a Mirage 2000 or F1 in this mod, heh.

Though i would think that giving China and Russia MiGs would be a better addition as far as changing what aircraft the civs use. Since you have some future tech maybe you can give them the Mig 44 (or whatever they call it now a days) thats supposed to be out in 2005.

I wonder what kind of new units we are going to get to play with in the next version...

another question... Can you explain to me how Rate of Fire is figured into combat?

The Canon has : Bombard 14
Range 1
Rate of Fire 1
Cost 40

But Korea gets Hwach'a in place of Canon

Bombard 8
Range 1
Rate of Fire 2
Cost 40

Is having bombard reduced from 14 to 8 but having rate of fire increased from 1 to 2 an advantage??


Also trying to understand"
Stealth Fighter Rate of Fire = 2
Stealth Bomber Rate of Fire = 10

Since all either can do is bombard, how does rate of fire affect equation?

Does anybody actually use the Stealth Fighter?

Thanks

rate of fire is the amount of damage the bomber gives to the target. Ex: the Hwaca bombs a unit and it looses two hitpoints. A Canon bombs a unit and it looses one hitpoint.

Someone clear this up for me...
I was under the impression that rate of fire meant number of times the unit can hit a target with bombard in a single turn...

is this wrong?

TeT - I believe Yoda is correct about this, RoF is the number of hp's a bombard unit can damage in one hit (they only ever attack once in a turn)

While we're on the Hwa'cha... can we give it some defense? Even if it's only a 1? Because it kind of sucks for Korea to be completely unable to acchieve its Golden Age militarily, and there's just not enough Wonders for 31 civs.

If you give the Hwa'cha defense it will also get military police powers (bad idea).

Originally posted by anarres
If you give the Hwa'cha defense it will also get military police powers (bad idea). why is that a bad idea?

I just started playing this, and have spend the last couple of days reading through the thread to make sure I'm not missing anything. I was wondering, is there not supposed to be Civlopedia entries for any of the religious units or the relics? I also can't see any of the relics on the screen. I looked in the editor and they're there, but invisible, is this correct?

Originally posted by mungman
I just started playing this, and have spend the last couple of days reading through the thread to make sure I'm not missing anything. I was wondering, is there not supposed to be Civlopedia entries for any of the religious units or the relics? I also can't see any of the relics on the screen. I looked in the editor and they're there, but invisible, is this correct?

Do you have the latest version:confused:

Rate of Fire (Unit Statistics)
Determines the rate of fire of the selected unit. Rate of fire defines how many times a bombarding unit will attack per turn.


Bombard Strength (Unit Statistics)
Determines the bombardment strength of the selected unit.


Hope this clears things up for everyone.

yeah, I installed the 1.66 update and the 1.7 bix before I started. And another thing I just noticed. I'm playing as the Romans and the horses that appear later in the game aren't usable for mounted units. I've got 3 horses, but still have to buy horses from the Chinese to build Knights.

Mungman - you are most likely playing random world map... I corrected this problem with the new version so that random maps have only one type of horses...

If you played on world map then this wouldn't occur :)

No, I'm playing on the world map with the historical city placement. If this was a problem with the older version maybe I somehow didn't get it upgraded all the way when it did that, do you know which version it was that was having this problem?

Good News is the next version 1.9 is on schedule to be released this week...

Bad News it is considerably scaled back from what version 2.0 would be... (Version 2.0 is just gonna blow your minds though! :))

Mungman - wild horses are only found in NA and regular horses are found in the old world. If the horses you have are from the old world then you should be able to build horse units playing the Romans... possibly you have an install conflict... :confused:

Thank you explaining Rate of Fire.

New Subject, Relics.
I like the idea, and actually have learned quite a bit reading discriptions to learn what civs are Buddist or Islamic.

But it seems to me the reward for aquiring the relics is not much.

Israel's reward for controlling the Ark of the Covenant is the Shofar Warrior 3/3/1 cost 10
But the Swordman 3/2/1 cost 30 would already be available (assuming access to iron)

I just think The Ark would provide something better, ever see what it did to the Nazis in Raiders of the Lost Arc?? j/k

The same type examples can be made with the other relics.
I like this new feature, just giving you my opinion that the rewards from the potential battles to acquire and then hold these relics should be more.

Re: Relics:

Jbprivate: You are DEAD wrong about relics. Take your example of the shofar warrior- you can build 3 of those for every swordsman. And it is upgradeable- so if you are about to research what they upgrade to, you can crank out a ton of them and then you have a bunch of rifleman. If you manage to get the shofar warrior, you cna conquer the entire middle east and north africa and there is nothing anyone can do to stop you.

Thanks, now that I think about it, I might have started the game I'm on now using the 1.66 bix, would this also explain the lack of religious units in the civlopedia and invisible relics?

...if your cities were unable to produce many shields. I was thinking more of per unit power than the quantity you could produce.
Was just an opinion.

So I'll change subjects :Ships

Why can't Destroyers see Subs?? In the description it says the purpose of destroyers "to locate and destroy enemy submarines"

I realize it's like this for all of Civ III, and not just this mod.

And, after this I'll sit down and shut-up and stay out the way,

Another Argument on Shield Cost of Air-Craft Carriers:

If the current shield cost your using is to reflect a $4,5 billion cost then I think that wouldn't be accurate. $4.5 B is cost for modern carriers, not WWII ships.
And since carriers are built in the Industrial Age.......

Ok, guess I'm just cheap.

Thanks for all your work, I'll hush up now. :wallbash:

I am currently working through this, and will be looking specifically at ships movement and warfare.
Meanwhile, As Greek, Monarch, I removed Israel, first because they had my only immediate source of Iron, and then to have and hold Jerusalem. When I got Chivalry, the Templar Knight rocks. No Civ stands up to them, and will not until riflemen. I currently own about half the world, but if I pursued it, I would never see the modern age, and would be unable to evaluate ships. I guess I better cool it, and wait., and go back to pretending I wanted a UN victory... :)
This is on Monarch.

Hey Tet!

Do we get 1.9 today? :-p

Sorry to pester, but I've been on the edge of my seat for weeks here!

I'm working on it now :)

I hope by the end of the day it will be done - been working on it a while... even with my fast PC the wait times between turns is around 2-3 minutes- year 2024...

WOW!
The year is 2090 of my last test before posting. The game is very slow now - 5 minutes between turns... This definitely shows the need to have this mod on a smaller map...

Anyhow, I am working on it sorry about the delay but with the proposal put forth to Atari & Firaxis I have had to juggle things a bit...

No-one can reply because we are all holding our collective breath... ;)

*gasp* :-)
It's ok, do what needs to be done! I'm sure it'll be worth it.

TETurkhan, I have to say you have done a great job making this mod! Thank´s a lot for showing us new horizonts of this game!

I have started to play with Chinese. I am just about 2650 B.C. but really enjoy this mod. But I have encountered a serious problem. My settlers are not able to build a new city! You might say I am stupid (and maybe you are right :) ) that I am not able to build one! There is no build icon available, hotkey "B" doesn´t work! I have tried to start with Germans but it´s the same.

When I edited the scenario and looked at settlers settings there was checked both "settle" and "build city" options. When I play any random game or another mod I haven´t got this problem. I have installed PTW v. 1.14f, TETurkhan mod v. 1.66 full and 1.70 after that.

Unfortunatelly I haven´t got time enough to read all threads regarding TETurkhan mod. Maybe there is some answer for my problem. Could someone help me please? I really have no idea what´s wrong or what I am doing wrong!

Thank you very much for your help.

I'm not sure if you're still accepting feedback but im so bored waiting for 1.9 (hint!) ill post what happened in my last game.

Settings

Full mod (inc cities etc)
Deity
1.2 Althlon
512MB Ram
English

Rather than go through a year-by-year account of my game ill just go over the highlights and what i noticed.

Firstly, regarding the american civs, I just love the way when they are finally discovered (even on diety) they are not technologically advanced (to say the least!). I think that is a great feature of the mod and makes the game feel so historically accurate in that respect. Although in fairness thosse who wish to go any of those civs may find it a little difficult (i.e. impossible!) I do think its vital it stays in the mod. :)

Also I went along the route which you suggested in this mod's strategy thread which is to beeline for Writing if you start with Alphabet (e.g. English). Even at a 40 turn tech rate (10%), when you eventually get it, usually only the 'big 3' (India, China and Turkistan (I think)) have it and I end up making the trade of a lifetime that turn! I know some people have made a fuss out of India and China being too large (and having too many luxuries) thus making the game unfair I would have to disagree. Given that they are both rather non-agressive they make good use of the land. I'd rather have China owning all those Silks than Russia. Besides they usually declare war on each other and spend history in a tug-of-war that gets neither of them anywhere!

Also I did get extremely frustrated after spending hours (yes, did I mention my puny 1.2Ghz Athlon) constructing the army of Britain! (we're talking 50 Knights here) and an armada to carry them to Paris, only to find the buggers wouldnt get on the Galleys! At the time I never knew it was an issue that could be fixed in the editor so I just disbanded half of them (half to stay behind for protection) and made swordsmen instead. Other than setting me back a few turns and a day of my life, it was no problem.

Finally a critism, those fu$"_*£& Holy Ghazhi Warriors!!!! Somehow Arabia obtained the relics to get them (pretty easy if you go arabia I should add). We're talking 4,2,3 at a time when pikemen were just coming into fashion! But in addition to their rediculously low price of 30 shields (less than half that of a knight and faster (ok 1 less attack but that doesnt matter when you can have 2 of them for every knight)) is their outragious HP!! Elite has 10 yes TEN!! Im not being funny but just 1 of them is unkillable (given the new terrain bonuses) let alone a force consisting of dozens of them!! Id rather take on 2 knights than 1 of those! Half of the world turned pink towards 200AD as arabia began oblitarating every nation. Picking up great leaders in the process.

Think of this, I spent time reserving my elite knights to form my new 7 man army of elites and then, when I got 7 I made my army. 49 Strenght. It was a beast, I thought nothing is even gonna sniff it!! That was until it was comfronted by a partial elite,veteran,regular army of 6 units of Holy Ghazy Warriors with a strenght of something around 55!! (they made it with ease!). This might not seem such a big issue but play diety, the AI churns out 100's of them!! let me see you defend yourself with 4HP pikemen.

I appreciate the fact that you want these units to be 'special' and that they played an important role in history, but unless their modified in some way, if any civ gets them, then its game over!

TETurkhan Test of Time will be known as
TETurkhan Race for the Relics!!!

In addition to that I also echo what Moulton said with regards to the Templar Knights. Although however diffucult you might make these relics/grail etc to obtain, IF you do get them, you've won!?

The above illustrates how the minest of changes can have profound effects in a game.

Things I would suggest doing would be (Im only speaking for the Ghazi warriors here since i havent seen a Templar Knight, Arabia just build the warriors!, why not they're better!) reducing the HP. Make them normal (i.e. killable!!) Although I feel it will still be a huge advantage (almost guaranteeing the game to the owners) its a start. The bonus has to be minute on a unit to unit scale but considered on a civ wide scale to keep it in comparison with the game (over a period of turns with a number of warriors) so that the bonus does not kill the game.

I was thinking a benfit as minute as make them similarly priced as Knights (70ish ok maybe less 50ish) but keep its extra pace 4,2,3 but make its maintenance zilch. So in other words its not that much of a bonus to make them (still takes time, but you can build dozens of them and it wont put a strain on your economy (a free army).

Ive got alot more to add on terrain and pirate ships but i need to watch england. Ill add the rest later :)

PS thanks for a great mod, i dont even play on the game rules anymore!

Kosh

Hey Scrooge Slayer

Im not 100% sure but i think you cant build cities on various terrian (hills tundra etc) but hopefully someone who knows what they are talking about can correct this.

By they way how do you have settlers at 2500BC. At 300shields a go thats impressive!!

Kosh

thanks for the feedback!

I am going to make the special relic units upgradeable... but until that time you will have your hands full...

Tech rate is what I am adjusting right now... also I am creating city improvements for certain Civs to give them a tech, production, trade etc boost… especially the European Civs during the age of exploration and industrial age… One thing I should mention, I found a bug with London… seems I forgot to place a key resource there – thus the City doesn’t grow to its right amount during the industrial age…

I like over emphasizing certain units and periods in history. I love the idea of facing hordes of Mongols, Ghazi Warriors or Templar Knights… the idea is Civs that get these special units, become so powerful and remain that way until the coming of the next tech when the unit becomes obsolete... the key is to survive until then... you are right though - they do become powerful even and though for a brief time they can bring a quick end to you game if you happen to be their enemy… have you ever tried to appease them? Nothing like some good old fashion b*tt kissing to hold you over until you can do some b*tt kicking! :) I will however double check to see if these special units are all upgradeable, to ensure you don’t have to face them for too long…

Keep the input coming!

TET, with your 5 minutes between turns, were you playing regidide or normal?? Is the game requiring just as long as 1.7, or is it even longer now, or is it faster than 17.??? Good luck getting it out, I can't wait! :)

Tet would you care for input on random maps? That's mostly all I play until the big 1-.9 is comes out.

Actually though the wait is 5 mins its not that bad... just takes too long if you are testing instead of playing ;) (I am playing normal, bloody lost though - cultural victory for the AI - I wish I could set this point higher)

I welcome input on random maps :)

Well here's some quick input on random maps-

First off the Random Map Generator tries to give equal land to all. So instead of some civs (like Europe) having few cities, all civs will get usually 5-6 core cities and some colonies. I try to balance this by making more ocean-percentage but it still seems to want huge landmasses on continent settings. I've tried archeopelego on the least land setting, but that ends up with you on an island with from 2-4 civs on it. I tried to do it on medium water % and that seems to be ok, but it ends up with civs streaked across the map. My suggestion to people who want to do this is to either put it on medium water on archeoplelego or small water continents.

Question-can you limit amount of rescources generated? In one game I had about 4 Ark of the Covenants and I couldn't tel which is which.

I have reduced the number of relics that will appear in radomly generated maps.

Yesterday was supposed to be the release date of 1.9 The day is almost over, am i seeing another broken promise here? Don't mean to be so blunt but when I hear over and over that this will happpen by this date and then it doesn't..........well it bugs me.

But I do appreciate all the work, just wish you wouldn't make promises if you can't keep them. Please don't take this in a personal or bad way at all. Just a little constructive criticism.

TET RULEZ!!!

"I'm late."
Words you don't want to hear from Tet, or your girlfriend.

I've postponed my whole life waiting for this mod. I hope it comes soon! :-D But I know it will be worth it, and Tet must be exhausted from all this hard work. Let me buy you a drink! :)

As many of you know I had been working very hard on the proposal to Firaxis and Atari... it didn't go through :(

I have one computer on all the time working on the mod - while the other I work my business etc...

I know no excuse and I apologize for giving yet another date and not delivering - really im sorry..

I will though give you guys day by day updates though, so at least you know what I am working on - sound ok? :rolleyes:

Proposal didn't go through?! Does that mean no Best of the Net CD? :-(

What are they thinking! Well maybe you mod guys can still get to gether and publish "Better Than Civ." :-p We'll still pay ya!

Originally posted by D. Minky
Proposal didn't go through?! Does that mean no Best of the Net CD? :-(

What are they thinking! Well maybe you mod guys can still get to gether and publish "Better Than Civ." :-p We'll still pay ya!

The proposal should have been to just put them on the regular expansion CD just like they did in the last expansion.....

You are so right Kanaric and I fear that I may have contributed to this... I didn't mean for this to happen, it would have been ideal for fan based mods and scenarios to go on the actual Conquests CD rather than a disk that only can be obtained through pre-order...

the proposal I put together was aimed at the top mod makers coming together to create the best work they possibly can... everything in the proposal was aimed to this end...

Mind you it is still too early to know the final decision on things...

PS. OMG, this last test game is still going on believe it or not... I have 2 computers on my desk, one with the game working all the time... every time my turn is up I play and then another 7-9 minutes before the next one... this is waaaay too long... I have to figure out a way to increase speed more...

.............


More feedback.

The Pirate Ships, Man they are brilliant, there's nothing better than seeing MaryBeard (or whatever shes called) sail into the Meditarreanean and clean it out!!

Moving onto terrain.

Firstly with regards to the roads, although took some getting to used to, its a nice change, thank you!. For example in spain, I had to mobilize my forces to defend against the dreaded Holy Ghazi Warriors (HGW). Rather than drag my units to where they where needed, it was necessary to plan the best route for them so they would 'land' on the required square and be able to attack on the same turn etc etc. A good thing to add. It adds emphasis to units (such as HGW and Cavalry) with a 3 move, whereas in the old rules units with 2 or 3 move moving along roads was more than enough and little difference with 3 movement units.

Onto the defence values of the terrrains. This which i appreiciate isnt the most straight forward to alter, having modern age units (tanks etc) balanced with the terrain values, altering them because in the ancient era values make the game out of balance would be catastrophic but my views are as follows.

Spearman on anything other than grassland or plains have a defensive value of 4 (100% in forrest/hills & 200% in mountains). Now with swordsmen this is particularly difficult to deal with (given the cost difference of spearman to swordsman). Now imagine you dont have iron. Trying to take out that single spearman pillaging all your land can be almost impossible. All you would do is just aid in it becoming elite and an elite spearman on a forest is almost unkillable unless you sacrifice around 4 units. Now in my last game I got around this with the use of catapults. Thanks for the lethal bombardment!!!! Man I had about 50 catapults in a stack, it was known as the stack of death!

Now with these HGW the problem gets worse. If your spearman/pikeman manages to survive an attack (due to the HGW retreating), its almost impossible to finish off the HGW since it'll be sitting on a hill/forest (defence value of 4) even if it only has 2/3 life left.. :( unless of course you want to sacrifice 2 or 3 swordsmen. Either that or wait till it recharges and comes back at ya for another 'round'. Its a lose lose situtation.

I appreciate that you want to over emphasize certain units and periods in history however your only argument is that i should try to appease the particular civ. Well unfortunately, the AI civs dont value their life as much as i would (as I mentioned earlier I chose to go to war with Arabia, so in another game I would chose not to!) but the AI is not so smart and 7 of the 31 civs were massacred by the Arabians in a record breaking time (basically as fast as the HGW can move). Germany was destroyed in 5 turns. We're talking about 9 cities here. I personally dont think they even killed 1 unit! I reckon they musta got about 5 GL's in the process. I saw about 8 HGW armies heading into Germany.

A nation that spans from Western Europe to the middle east (including africa) made up of some 100 cities (almost half the 256x256 map!) is not going to be 'return to normal' merely because it has no HGWs. And this would just for starters once they obtain means to get to america, god help those indians, it would be a bloodbath. At which point HGW or not, its game over.

In short, hiding away for now means you're merely postponing the inevitable.
It seems evident you're not gonna change their values which is your choice but afterall this is feedback.

Im woffling on a bit now so ill revert to some more general points.

As you now know I didnt get into modern warfare (tanks, infantry etc but I was browsing the civlopedia at all those new units and I must say, when I get to WWII styled warfare, it will be damn fine. I especially like the infantry units of all the civs (having their unique infantry, French Infantry etc etc) and having different values to represent their respective strengths. I noticed the Germans have a strong military for that time with the Tiger II and their Infantry for which I cant wait to get to in my next game on 1.9!

Also ships, man (even tho i didnt get to build any besides the galleys that dont even carry knights!) I LOVE THEM!! Battleships, Carriors, the cost to build them and their strength really gives that sense of pride and value when upon construction of HMS Endevour, you see it sail out of its port in London for the first time a sence of real achievement :). Yes im actually gonna name them (I mean it, since i wont have more than 1 in service at any time!!). But compare that to normal rules where you just churn out a Battleship every 2 turns and the loss of a Battleship is no concern.

Ill add some more stuff later

PS I take it now that since we're gonna get a day-by-date update on the mod means we're not gonna get it anytime soon (like today?). Im waiting to start a new game but if we're talking weeks rather than days for the update then I'll start one now under the old rules, however most of the feedback I will be giving wont be relevant.

Peace

Kosh

Originally posted by Kosheen
Hey Scrooge Slayer

Im not 100% sure but i think you cant build cities on various terrian (hills tundra etc) but hopefully someone who knows what they are talking about can correct this.

By they way how do you have settlers at 2500BC. At 300shields a go thats impressive!!

Kosh

Hi Kosh,

Thank´s for your reply. I have already noticed that it is not possible to build new cities on certain terrain types. But I wasn´t able to biuld new city on any terrain.

I happen have fixed it up! I have reinstalled both PTW and TETurkhan mod. I don´t know where the bug was but it has been working now! You know Windows are still unreliable system that likes bothering its users with many stupid bugs.

I don´t consider having settlers 2500 B.C. as something impressive. Chinese have really good conditions for boosting their economics. Rice fields on grasslands provides rich food resources that cause fast city growth. China is also one of the countries that have larger number of cities. And when you smart exchange technologies there is no reason to be able to have settlers even much sooner.

I have already wiped out Mongols from Asia. Cambogia has it´s days counted and will follow Mongols destiny soon!

Originally posted by TETurkhan
PS. OMG, this last test game is still going on believe it or not... I have 2 computers on my desk, one with the game working all the time... every time my turn is up I play and then another 7-9 minutes before the next one... this is waaaay too long... I have to figure out a way to increase speed more...


What spec machine are you running? I found it was taking that length of time between turns in the middle ages! One thing tho, it wouldnt be such an issue for me since I could do other things whilst waiting if it wasnt for all the pop ups (Germany declares war on Celts and so on). Theres around 10 of them each turn and ya have to sit around to get through them all. Is there anyway to turn them off?

Fair enough Slayer, did not think of that. :rolleyes:

I agree with Kosheen that the pirate ships are cool, but if there was any way to make them appear later in the game that would be much better. In one of my files as the Greeks I wanted to colonise Africa so I loaded up 5 galleys with settlers etc. The ships chased me and even though I left some as bait they still chased me and killed all of my ships.

I know I've said this before but is there any way to make China less powerful? I know it was/is a powerful civ and all, but in my file China was crazy. Crazy as in: Conquered Mongols, Kmers, Persia, Turkistan, Celts, Spain, Egypt, Korea, Germany, parts of France Russia and Rome. That is just crazy! Chinese riders all the way in Spain!! In industrial times its just crazy, they have hundreds and hundreds of units, its only a matter of time... Maybe this is just me, or specifically in my game. I wonder if anyone else has this problem or if my China just got lucky.

@ Kosheen- One reason (probably) that teturkan has the defense raised is this: Think of Europe, with only 2-3 cities. If one city falls, then that civ loses about half of his total power! And the other civ gets his power increased by 1/3! So a Germany with only one city left trying to battle a France with three cities left is highly unbalanced. So in order to try and prevent this, he raised the values to make it harder for this to happen. I understand though what you mean about hard-to-kill units in defensive terrain.

Teturkan, is there any way to prevent a civ from building cities for a while? Sort of like what you were considering to do for America, to have it trapped on an island for a while. I'm talking about Europe/Africa/middle east/asia. Have civs like Hebrews/Egyptians/Africans able to found their cities first. Then 20-30 turns later, Arabs/Carthage/Rome/Greece build their capitol. Then later have Germany/France/Spain build their cities etc etc. I know this would be very hard but it would reflect history. I know you can't do this for 1.9 but with the new Conquests editor you might be able to. This might be a cool feature for random maps too. In random maps it would be harder though but if there was a create object trigger then it could be possible.

Ok, enough for now.

I don't think its the power of civs thats a real problem here. It's something that was just brought up -- the AI doesn't value its own life.

I think I've discovered that more important than maknig the AI value maps and contacts a lot more, is to teach them how to surrender! The AI never surrenders unless you offer it to them. I think this is *very* bad. Sometimes they wont even surrender when you have their last city surrounded!

If the AI learned to surrender more readily, then there would be much less massive destruction like is being described here. It wouls still happen of course, but less dramatic (China controlling the whole world, HGW obliterating everything).

I also agree with perhaps bringing pirates in at a later date. (If this is possible...) I LOVE the idea of pirates! I think it's wonderful. But I'd like to see the renaissance pirates appear during the renaissance. I hate being attacked by Captain Kid in 500 BC when I'm just trying to explore. The pirates are way too powerful at that young age -- perhaps some much weaker pirates that have a lot of hitpoints would be appropriate? Or give them less movement so as to make it possible to squeeze by?\

One more thing (I know! I'm sorry!)... Tet, is 1.9 much slower than 1.7? I've had the long turns you describe now in the middle ages on my comp... is it always this slow for you, or only in the new version? :-S

- China will always be powerful, but not as much as before I have made sure of that by keeping their hands full with the Japanese ;)

-the idea about the settlers is already implemented and I am testing it out now! So far so good, but Europe is still at a disadvantage - so I am making city improvements for certain European Civs to help boost their tech, production etc... nobody else will have it except them which should make their rise to power easier... in my current game its the Greeks who rule the world - so at least it has shifted from the Indians and Chinese who were more powerful in the beginning of the game...


Current Status:
-I have some serious tech/time problems. I am trying to get it so that the turns, the year and the tech rate all line up the way they should in history... very tough to do though...
-also I see a problem with the expensive units... the carriers etc... the AI never rushes them and if not then we are talking in some cases of 150-250 turns to produce one of these units... by that time the game could be over... in the game I am testing now not a single battleship has been produced so far, lots of destroyers but no battleships or carriers... I have to do something about this, for a human player its not a problem but he AI has to rush it as well otherwise they are at a huge disadvantage…. one thing that I never realized how bloody scary can be is those damn transports... one of them can carry enough units to wipe you clear out of the game... see one of those off your coast and it wakes you right up!

I think once this test is done i will just give you guys 1.9 raw... its much better than what you have now but lacks many of the improvements of 2.0... which is ok cause at least you guys have somethign more stable to work with and it will spark feed back which will help in finishing version 2.0 :)

Tet, pleeeeease release it to us raw! We'll all test it, I'm sure. We'll all give you input and stuff. Just don't "advertise" it, and then after a while once it's good then you can "advertise". We can even get fanatical and post summaries of our games so you can see how its going. Think of it-all of us testing instead of just you! (anything to appease you)

Ok, I promise this will be my last post trying to persuade you to release it. After all, you're the man. Without you this wouldn't be possible, so you get to decide if you want to release it or not. I know I sound impatient, most of us are.

Ok so much for AI not producing mega-expensive units... they just built a bunch of battleships... man oh man... took a while but now that they are here they look terribly intimidating - 240 attack, 40 bombard strength and 10 rate of fire (meaning they can bombard 10 times in a turn) :eek:

Originally posted by TETurkhan
Ok so much for AI not producing mega-expensive units... they just built a bunch of battleships... man oh man... took a while but now that they are here they look terribly intimidating - 240 attack, 40 bombard strength and 10 rate of fire (meaning they can bombard 10 times in a turn) :eek:


Now I will have a challenge at sea;):p

Hey tet, I definately understand what you mean about the problem with science not lining up. In the games I play, the only way science lines up properly is if I NEVER trade teach with the AI, and I avoid as many wars as possible.

It seems that the AI is sooo willing to trade tech to eachother that it makes science just skyrocket. You might have to either increase the value of tech to a huge amount, or just lower the rate at which AI are willing to trade it...

Almost there, be patient I just have to let this game play out until all of the modern the tech tree is researched... once that happens I will make necessary changes and post...

China never concquers anything in my games, I mean a few Tibetan and Mongol cities here and there, but no major gains. Everyone always reamains pretty stagnant.

I like the pirates, and I don't think TET can make them come later because they're not just there to be fun, they're there to prevent anyone from discovering Americas until we have magnetism... the part that stinks about this feature though is that we can't even transport troops around the Mediterranean via galleys :( One thing I did in my last game to help with this is I gave myself the Great Lighthouse to start with, just so I'd have the movement bonus. I know it's cheating, but so what?! :)

TET, I can't wait to help test 1.9 for you!

Oh, and with my 1.0 Athlon processor, >300MB ram, and 60GB harddrive machine, my turns take several minutes in the middle ages (and that's even regicide!). IF THERE'S A WAY TO BYPASS ALL THOSE POP-UP MESSAGES (ROME DECLARES WAR ON GERMANY), IT WOULD REALLY HELP OUT!!! SO I AGREE WITH WHOEVER MENTIONED THAT. IT WOULD BE EAISER TO READ A BOOK OR SOMETHING BETWEEN TURNS.

ciao!

Ok, I didn't know if it was just my China or not. I guess it was. Maybe me playing as Tibet has something to do with it.

My turns take literally 15 minutes in the beginning of the industrial age. I did actually time it. I usually do homework or read a book and look every once in a while to see if a pop-up came up. I have 900mhz and about 326 RAM. I think a lot of it has to do with capturing cities and whatnot. I think I might have to buy a new processor just to play this mod ;)

>> IF THERE'S A WAY TO BYPASS ALL THOSE POP-UP MESSAGES (ROME DECLARES WAR ON GERMANY), IT WOULD REALLY HELP OUT!!! SO I AGREE WITH WHOEVER MENTIONED THAT. IT WOULD BE EAISER TO READ A BOOK OR SOMETHING BETWEEN TURNS.<<

I'm on a P3 850 Mhz with 512 megs of ram. By the middle ages, turns take at least 7 minutes for me. I don't mind this so much (I read books too ;-P) but I agree that those popups are murder. Sometimes I end my turn to go to class, or run to Taco Bell and get food ;-) only to come back and find that the turn hasn't move, because The Iroquois declared war on the Zulu or some joke like that.

Somehow, I really doubt there's a way to turn these off... :-\ but if there is I'd be soooooo happy, and I wouldn't care about the long turns!

I play on an AMD 2000+, 256Mb and while the turn times aren't too bad (around 4-5mins), on the last (regicide) game I played, when I killed the king unit the game would freeze for about 10 minutes at a time while it recalculated the borders etc. When I finally killed the indian king, the game froze for 20mins and then crashed. I reloaded and retried but the same thing happened.

More Pc memory on its way...:)

Ah yes, I do remember it taking upwards of 20 minutes whenever I would capture even a single city on my (much slower) PC... :-\

Tet, will 1.9 include these smaller maps? :-D

Originally posted by D. Minky
>> IF THERE'S A WAY TO BYPASS ALL THOSE POP-UP MESSAGES (ROME DECLARES WAR ON GERMANY), IT WOULD REALLY HELP OUT!!! SO I AGREE WITH WHOEVER MENTIONED THAT. IT WOULD BE EAISER TO READ A BOOK OR SOMETHING BETWEEN TURNS.<<

I'm on a P3 850 Mhz with 512 megs of ram. By the middle ages, turns take at least 7 minutes for me. I don't mind this so much (I read books too ;-P) but I agree that those popups are murder. Sometimes I end my turn to go to class, or run to Taco Bell and get food ;-) only to come back and find that the turn hasn't move, because The Iroquois declared war on the Zulu or some joke like that.

Somehow, I really doubt there's a way to turn these off... :-\ but if there is I'd be soooooo happy, and I wouldn't care about the long turns!

I didnt see any option for it in the preferences, its probably only something that can be addressed in a patch.

Tek, any change of 1.9 this weekend??

Kosh

True, I bet it would have to be in a patch, and I *really* doubt they're going to release a patch solely for new features, especially when theyre going to release Conquests.

Version 1.9 is almost ready for posting - tonight or tomorrow 100% - but I warn you that there is not much to it except balance issues...

My aim is to make 2.0 the primary focus and with the help of the Conquests editor I am sure it will not disappoint.

... hopefully it will be available in the morning as I'm just about to crash for the night :p

Peace

Kosh

Tet, Playing your Mod and game crashes when trying to upgrade riflemen to guerrillas . Wondered if any others have noticed this or if it was just a problem on mine.

Everything else runs fine, but tried 3 times, each time it crashed.

Thanks for all your work

>>Version 1.9 is almost ready for posting - tonight or tomorrow 100% - but I warn you that there is not much to it except balance issues...<<

Not much but balance issues? I'm wondering what that means isn't included in 1.9. I hope it still qualifies for 1.9 status and isnt a 1.75 ;-)

Hehe I'm sure it will be worth every time i hit refresh to see if it's been posted (i.e. every 5 minutes). I can't wait! :-D

Originally posted by jbprivate
Tet, Playing your Mod and game crashes when trying to upgrade riflemen to guerrillas . Wondered if any others have noticed this or if it was just a problem on mine.

Everything else runs fine, but tried 3 times, each time it crashed.

Thanks for all your work

Same here, though I've experienced it when upgrading any unit, not just riflemen->guerrilla. I've noticed that I can sometimes get it to work for a short while by rebooting and trying again. That leads me to believe it's some kind of memory corruption error in the Civ III engine.

Sound gets glitchy on my machine sometimes, too. If I let it go long enough, the game will crash.

I had this problem early on in my last game with upgrades from Spearmen to Pikemen. As soon as I could build pikemen I tried to upgrade them all and it crashed and doing it seperately did the game thing. A few turns later after manually building some, I speamen returning to a city after doing some errands and a thought I'll try again (saved the game just incase) and it worked?! Then all spearmen that turn I was able to upgrade without crashes.

Then a few turns later I tried to upgrade another one and BOOM :confused: . A few turns later they upgraded again :rolleyes:.

I dont know what the problem is but if they wont upgrade one turn they'll never upgrade THAT turn, try next turn and so on =/

Kosh

Well, I tried upgrading them all at once, and it worked, and then in the next few turns was able to upgrade the stragglers who were not in cities for the big upgrade.

Then I upgrading another one and game crashed again. But I think that all the crashes happened while trying to do the upgrades in a specific city?

Not sure how to word this........ is there anyway that 1 city could be messed up? I wouldn't think so, but I don't know how any of this stuff works.

The city is Viroconium, but I was playing with just starting points so that's propably worseless info.

Sorry, disregard last message.


Crashed again, same upgrade but different city

Try a few turns later maybe 4 or 5. It worked for me, tough luck I guess.

My observations were that if it crashes upgrading a unit on one particular turn, then no matter which unit or where you try to upgrade it, it WILL crash that turn.

Then as I mentioned, a few turns later I tried again just 'for the hell of it'! so to speak and it worked. Then for that turn, they ALL worked no matter where or with which unit I tried :).

But it wasnt fixed for good cus a few turns later when I tried to upgrade to the 'next' available units it crashed. I didnt last much longer to test the theory again (by waiting a few turns) since my without musketmen, my pikemen where no defence for herds of incoming Holy Ghazi Warriors :)

But even if the above is a work around, then its still not acceptable since on the higher levels (emp-diety), having a to wait a few turns to upgrade your units when their already well out of date can mean the end of you (like my game :rolleyes:).

I have had this problem before and I think it might be because I always play on huge maps 300+ ! Might be memory related, I dunno.

Peace

Kosh

I doubt this is a TET problem. Especially the way you describe it happenning only on specific turns.

If you've ever re-loaded the game to "correct" a certain battle-gone-wrong, you'll have noticed that the battles *always* go the same exact way, down to the number of HP lost. It seems Civ3 generates all the calculations for combat in advance, rather than generating them at the moment combat is initiated. So, if you're really observant, you can figure out which units to use when by trying a test run, then reloading it (thus defeating tanks with warriors sometimes :-\).

Anyhoo, my point is that I imagine Civ3 messed up somehow for that turn, and that is why the crash happens only on certain turns, and always on certain turns. You should report it to Firaxis -- they do have a suggestions form on their website. (Also good for suggesting stuff for Conquests.)

this problem happened to me as well...
I was testing the mod in debug mode and figured it had to be related to that... but now it seems its widespread... I relayed this to Firaxis - hopefully they will be able to assist...

as for version 1.9, things are progressing very smoothly... should be ready in a matter of hours..

Hours have gone by, tet. I'm bouncing off the walls with anticipation! :-D

I went to open the last winrar 1.65 patch file - but instead of just looking inside I accidently started installing it OVER my new files!!!
:mad: :aargh: :saiyan:

I stopped it but not before it had over written some text files, namely the pediaicon and Civilopedia one. Editing them now, hope I haven't missed anything - should be up very soon though...

oooo nooo, TET, are you sure nothing important was lost?? this is a major bummer :(

Here is version 1.90!
Remember this version was only done to give everyone something "more balanced" to play until the release of 2.0 later this year.

There needs to be considerable testing done on this... the two computers I have are simply not enough...

so please play all 3 versions (cities, world map and random) and whatever insights you can pass on to me will be greatly appreciated...

thanks!


1.90 UPDATE version 1.90 (critical one): Gives you the latest fixes and modifications http://www.civfanatics.net/~teturkhan/downloads/tet1.90-update.exe (Make sure you have the 1.65 or 1.66 primary installed before downloading this file. When done, just click the update file once and it will self install.

Well it is great that we can finally test your new and long-before-advised update version 1.9!!! I was so looking forward to have it that I checked it once per half an hour even at my work. Unfortunatelly I am still at work so I will have to wait till this evening to play it!!! It is an irresistible temptation not to get out of here sooner and try the new update!!! :jump:

P.S.: Sometimes it is not bad idea to back-up your work! ;)

Hi TeT this is my first post so please be gentle if something is wrong.:cool:
I know that you have hard it maybe a hundred times but this is a great mod, you did a fantastic job. I just dowloaded your new version and i will try it as soon as i have time (which will be in a couple of hours after work). One thing which I want to ask and maybe was already discussed (if so please ignore it ) when playing the Germans I cant build the Me262, beacuse after I researched Advanced Fligth I andvance to the next era, the germans get on andvance for free, and this is everytime :cry: Rocketry, so I only can build the very expensive and time comsuming Jet Fighter.
If you already know this, or if it is fixed in the new version, sorry for bothering
:)

TET I thought you were going to inclued a samll map?

Hey TET,

I am a longtime fan of your Mod, and look forward to trying it out tonight when I leave work. One question though, is the new version an update, or a full download? Also, was wondering what changed from version 1.7.

Thanks,

Barak

Hi TET, thanks for posting 1.9!

I have a quick question... can the upgrade affect our curent games that we were playing in 1.7? Or only in new games that BEGIN as a 1.9 game??

Tet!

Thank you!!!!!! :-D :-D You have made my day!

I can't wait to get this tested!! :-D

Great job TET!

How about starting a new thread for version 1.90?

1.9?? It cant be!!


Time to take it for a test drive.


Peace

Kosh

Note this:

TET's install programs assumes you have installed PTW in
C:\Program\Infogrames Interactive\Civilization III\CIV3PTW

If you have used another path when you installed PTW, move TET's files from
C:\Program\Infogrames Interactive\Civilization III\CIV3PTW
to your install folder.

Kez - That German problem is something I will have to look into – provide me a save game for reference please.

Bobisback - I am working on the map actually but there was simply not enough time, I am afriad you will have to wait for 2.0 until it is available. The "Just Mod" version is a great option if you have a slower PC - and it is more balanced than before. Also you can play the Americans in that version ;)

Version 1.90 is a test version or as I like to call it – “Raw”. It was done primarily to give people something to test and thereby help with the construction of 2.0 Don’t expect the world because it’s not in there – instead what you are going to find is an update that tries to steer the mod in different directions. Not much if any on new units, new leaderheads, city improvements etc but more on balance issues.

All my energy from now on will be spent on version 2.0 and unless there is some huge problem with 1.90 don’t expect an update until 2.0 comes out.

I thank you all for understanding, and look forward to your comments – good and bad!

How come you have Americans only in the "JUST MOD"?:king:

Hard to recreate history with the Americans on the mainland. I was thinking of having them in the world map version but stuck on an island until the age of discovery. Around 1600's give them cheap settlers and ships so they could get off the island (Bermuda) and watch them run over the continent. Problem is what does a player do until that time?

Hi TET,

I have just started mod 1.9 with Chinese as I had before (just for compare what´s new). I have noticed that my Chinese started with Masonry and Alphabet already disovered. But entry for China in civilopedia shows they should start with Masonry and Warrior Code. When I consider they are militaristics and industrious civilization shouldn´t they start with discoveries mentioned in civilopedia better than the ones you have set? Or does your setting intend to reflect some part of history? Well I´ve just wanted to know what´s wrong. Your setting or entry in civilopedia? :confused:

Pre-setting world wonders to correct countries seems to be quite interresting idea. We will see how this history reflection will effect the game.

Sorry to do this so fast but the BIX & text files in version 1.90 were done using 1.26f PTW patch. Since all of you don't have this it was bound to crash the mod. Version 1.91 is where this mod will probably stay until version 2.0 later this year :)

Its ready for download - first post of this thread.

shoot - must of been when I accidentially installed the old civilopedia file over the new one... fixed now - thanks!

Also I am going to write all bugs and issues reported to me in the first post of this thread. That way everyone can see the bugs etc so we don't have too many repeat posts of the same problem.

thanks for lettin me know about the americans

thanks for lettin me know about the americans

Thanks for tellin me bout the Americans:)

Originally posted by TETurkhan
The "Just Mod" version is a great option if you have a slower PC - and it is more balanced than before. Also you can play the Americans in that version ;)


Cool:p ;)

TETurkhan,

I am going to play a TETurkhan 1.9 Succession Game, we have waited for this release to start it.

One thing though: We have only just got the 1.21 patches (yesterday), and it will be some time before any more non-US patches appear.

Can you (or anyone else) confirm that TET 1.9 will run OK with PTW 1.21??

Desperately looking for a positive answer,

anarres

Damn server glitch! :mad:

TET, I will repost my message later today since it appears above your last post... :sad:

:eek:
1.9 is weird! :)

Especially getting MPPs with writing and RoPs with Nationalism? Is that deliberate? I love the new leaderhead for Poland! (Still only in Ancient Age, though...looking forward to seeing the other ages)

And everything takes so *long* now-180 turns for a temple? 100 for research? :confused: *shrug* I can't say much about the overall pace yet... I'm not far enough.

I checked out the editor and I must say that it is the coolest how you have every thing set up.:goodjob: I have one question though, how does the time scale work?

Time scale has not been tested enough, thus I am unsure what the results will be... just note though there seems to be a problem with this version - I am using 1.29f patch for PTW and thus may cause a conflict.

Looking into posting 1.91 (shoot that was fast) addressing this conflict as well as updating the civilopedia (it got written over with the install accident)...

I should have it ready soon, but keep playing anyhow until it does cause a problem.

Tet, thanks again for your work. I understand you trying to match advancements with their actual time periods, but my opinion is that the civilization advances are way too expensive now.

Tested 2 different Civs, up all night, but got too bored playing.

2nd game had 8-10 cities and at this point all just set up to pump out as much production as possible, and I still had 83 turns until the next advancement. And with population growing at same rate as before I had to spend even more time adjusting every towns "moods". Time between turns doesn't bother me, but add all of this together and it's just too much time spent on the most tedious aspects of the game.

I'm not a top notch player, but I figure you expected Joe Average to be playing this Mod too

I like and appreciate your work, but at this rate I'll lose interest long before I get to most of the good stuff in WWII years.

Thanks

Tet a few Q's...

How did you add the Americans? I thought only 31 civs were allowed? :-?

Also, how many "additions" were put in? My main concern -- can the Native Americans build harbors? I really really want to be able to trade with them when I discover them!

Go 56k go! Run like the wind! :lol:

He probably took out someone to add America. I haven't payed much attention though. Who did you take out, Indonesia? Anyway, I just want to echo my thanks for putting up 1.9. I started a random map as the russians and I don't notice anything, yet (except the cool new Polish leaderhead.) I know I can't trade contacts with writing. D.Minky, you should go into the editor and allow harbors for Native Americans yourself if tet didn't do it.

trying out 1.9, and about on 10th -15th turn maybe, and getting an error message of "Maximum Hyperlinks Extended" , any idea what this means?

Edit: Ignore

Hey Tet, the Poles special unit comes up an error in the civlopedia, when i clicked on the link in the Poles description.

Could I ask someone to send to my email a default roads.pcx picture, please? I have overwritten it with some new version having buildings by the roads. But I don´t like it anymore and don´t want to reinstall PTW because of it. Thanks a lot.

And man Tet, I have to say whatever you did with Contacts is GREAT! Everyone may still have the whole world map by 2000 BC, but I have'nt heard from East Asia yet, and wars are only being fought by neighbors, and mutual defense pacts too. Wonderful!

(I also like the wonders in their historic spots!)

Tet, your scenario is the best! I have one question though.

I used you scenario straight from the PTW disk, made a few changes, and am ready play it with some friends. There's one thing I've noticed, however, in the game. I can't rename my units at all, even though I can in other PTW games. I was just wondering if there is a way to fix this in the editor or if I'm stuck with not allowing my creative juices to flow :) . Thanks in advance.

Oh, before I forget, any chance of adding tea, sugar, or opium with all the other spectacular new resources? I think they're pretty significant as well, but i like the one you have now too.

I love this map/mod! It is by far my favorite. Thank you soooo much for stopping expansion in your cities version. It is a lot more fun without having to yell at my neighbors every turn to get out of my territory. I like how you slowed down the tech rate to follow real history. This is the best EVER. Can't wait for version 2.0!

I spent a considerable amount of time working on version 1.90 since it's posting. As many of you know, I accidentally installed (partially – thank god!) over top the new files I had been working on just before I posted– still can't believe I did that still! :crazyeye: That is the main reason you are seeing a number of updates in such a short span of time - just correcting some over written files.

Anyhow I am sorry to those of you that have already downloaded 1.90 & 1.91 but rest assured that 1.92 should be the final one until 2.0 :p

-------------------------------------------
Benderino - I will look into adding more resources for version 2.0 :) As for your problem renaming the units there is a bit more to it than just the name change in the editor. You will also need to make necessary changes in the Pediaicons.txt file. I am quite certain there are threads that give details on how to do this.

Scrooge Slayer - The mod now uses default road graphics :)

I think by rename he means in the game, the special feature in PTW where you rename just one unit.

Anyway I have to give you my extreme thanks. What's this with wonders in historical cities? Anyway, I started an game as the Russians in random map mode. I am up at the top of the continent. I made contact with my neibors and a few others but my scout got killed by barbarians. So I decided to wait for writing to get contact with the lower civs. Writing came in, but no cantact trades. That's great! Tank you thank you thank you! I had to build some scouts and send them through treacherous territory to get contacts. The cool part was, up in my neck of the woods, we only had secondhand maps. None of us had knowledge of what lies below. It was great! Another thing in general is that I like how you had changed barbarian unit to swordsman at the beginning of this mod.

One more thing: The relics idea for random maps might not be great. In the game I have the hebrews have one Ark of the Covenant but the other is on another island deep in Indonesian territory. By the time the Hebrews get the technology to cross, they will have no need pf Shofar warriors. Do ya think you can make upgraded units for relics, and put them in 1.92? (uless you've already done that) I know its a lot to ask but its a long wait till 2.0.

Thanks again for making this beautiful gorgeous mod. Civ will never be the same! :thumbsup: :goodjob: :thumbsup: :goodjob:

I'm sorry, one more thing, I don't feel like editoing my post above: For getting turn times to line up with history, did you ever think of lengthening the turn time instead of the tech time?

Originally posted by BobTheTerrible
I think by rename he means in the game, the special feature in PTW where you rename just one unit.


Yeah, during gameplay. :)

Quick question TET

In the bug report for 1.91 you have Revised Tech rate (major flaw found)
What do you mean by major flaw


Also on a different note I don't know if this is a problem in 1.92, but in the 2000s of 1.7 (or what ever version before 1.9) I've had mass starvation in my civilization. So for 2.0 whould it be possible to have expanstion in to the oceans with under water cities.

Just a thought for the future

Shadows - There was a flaw in the formula used to ensure tech rate and time in history are in sync. I spent the better part of yesterday working on it - it maybe a little off still since no testing has been done on it. Most recommendations after this point will be carried out on version 2.0 - please do as much testing and do not limit this to the city version only.

Also - everyone should know that this mod should be played at a difficulty setting of Deity & you should have Respawn Civ option turned off. All my testing was done with these options.

If I started a game using 1.91, can I continue on 1.92 or do I have to start over. Not a big deal, but I'm hving fun colonizing North America in 1000 BC;)

I know the download is quite large - and most of 1.92 is the same as 1.90 except for some text & BIX files. I recommend you play version 1.92 because I really need the feedback in designing 2.0.

As for colonizing North America in BC you might not be so lucky with the new version unless of course you get by those Pirates ;)

Originally posted by TETurkhan

Benderino - I will look into adding more resources for version 2.0 :) As for your problem renaming the units there is a bit more to it than just the name change in the editor. You will also need to make necessary changes in the Pediaicons.txt file. I am quite certain there are threads that give details on how to do this.


I think I may have mispoken, or I just don't understand :confused:

In PTW games, while playing, you are able to click on, say, a rifleman, and rename him to Benderino. Then you can click on another one and rename him to Benderstein. And another to Benderavic, or Benderas ;) etc. You get the point. However, in your game, there is no option to. There is not button to click on the screen when a unit is selected. Normally it would be near all the commands at the bottom, however, it isn't here. If this is still what you are referring to, then its purely my ignorance. :o

This will be the last time that I ask, because I don't want to take up any more of your time with silly questions as this. Keep doing a wonderful job.

Tet, for 2.0 --

is there a possible way to elimate those "X signs military agreement with Y." "X delcared war on Z." Every turn? I know I could sidestep this by not building embassies, but I like ot have embassies, and sooner or later, embassies will be built in my land.

The thing is that I like to hit End Turn and then go do some work while it cycles, but this is impossible with the constant alliances every turn. Would you be able to lump them all into one announcement that you get right before your turn?

don't know if you tried to set it up so you can't trade contacts early on with the new version, but I still managed to be in contact with everyone by about the 4th turn

Help Test the TETurkhan Mod
Choose from anyone of these three:

1. World Map w/Cities – over 250 cities in their correct locations.
2. World Map – only start positions.
3. Just Mod – random map of your choosing (make sure to specify details of your customized map).


As you are playing a game please fill in the following form and when finished send it to me at teturkhan@hotmail.com, Subject Line: TESTER

1. Your Name & Age
2. Skill level – beginner, intermediate or expert
3. Details of your game (preferences you have chosen etc)
4. IMPORTANT: As you play log the year of each tech you discover.
5. IMPORTANT: Log any points you want to make, things you like, things you don’t like – remember the key of the mod is to recreate history while still allowing a player some flexibility in changing it.

That’s it!
I know its time consuming but I assure you that I will give each and every detail you log my attention. It will really be a great way for you to have input on the making of Version 2.0)

I thank you in advance and look forward to you assistance.

TETurkhan

don't know if you tried to set it up so you can't trade contacts early on with the new version, but I still managed to be in contact with everyone by about the 4th turn - Mungman

4th turn!? :confused:

What Civ are you playing? You should only be able to make contact with Civs bordering yours or through direct contact. let me know...

Mungman, are you sure you're playing 1.92 because you shouldn't have contacts?...

Benderino, I thought you can only name Elite troops that produce Leaders??

TET, thanks for the update!!

Hi Tet--

This was my second time through your mod. The first time I played Arabia/monarch straight from the PTW disk version, and this time I played Rome/monarch in the version that just preceeded 1.90. I thought I should give you some feedback.

I don't know if any of my problems have been addressed in 1.9x, but testing it out is pretty time-consuming.

First of all, I want to say that my game as Arabia was awesome. For a long time, I was stretching my resources to the breaking point, trying desperately to conquer more land. I conquered most of Europe with bowmen, which was hard, because back then many of the Hungarian cities in the Transylvanian Alps were built on mountains and sometimes 20 bowmen would die in city battle. But later wars required Knights (Ansar Warriors, actually), which call for a totally different battle strategy. By the time I conquered North America, the strategy was again very different, with flamethrowers shuttled in Mech Infantry. Overall, it was my best Civ experience ever.

My recent game on 1.8x sucked in comparison. I chose to play Rome because I wanted the upper hand of their Leigeonaries. They turned out to be far too cheap and too powerful. I had conquered all of Europe, Arabia, Persia (where I built a Forbidden Palace) as well as India (!) before the Ancient era was over! I had built the Great Library, but my enemies were falling so fast that world science research was minimal. With India and Turkistan dead, only China was left doing any research, and they got overrun with 200+ leigeonaries just as they started building Pikemen (around 350BC).

What sucked about this game is that was its incredible monotony. I had overrun all of Africa + Eurasia in the same way: running leigeonaries. It's terribly boring, because they were slow and didn't offer many alternative strategies besides the standard "march in several big stacks." Though I was killing my people as fast as I could, conquering the world as fast as I could walk, I was still producing a surplus of leigeonaries, to the point that by 300BC, after the defeat of China, I had more than 1000 veteran + elite units leigeonaries. Basically, world history was over before anybody even discovered education. I was pretty disappointed!

Here is my diagnosis of what went wrong. I hope you consider fixing some of these things.

1. Leigeonaries are way to cheap for their power. Crucially, they become buildable very early in the game, and though they cost the same as a warrior they are more powerful than swordsmes (who cost 3X as much). Because Italy has many initial trading partners, they get Iron Working very quickly and basically for free (through intelligent buying and selling of advances). And an iron source is sitting right there in northern Italy. It's a recipie for disaster! Only a few turns later, all of Europe was mine, and most European cities were making a Leigeonary every single turn.

2. I understand conceptually why settlers must be so expensive, but the AI is really stupid about buillding them. The only practical way to make them is through rush building, and I don't think I saw the AI do that, ever. It means that their most productive cities spent most of their time making the 300 shields necessary to make settlers, instead of building troops or civil improvements. What's worse, once they did build the settlers, they just walked them around aimlessly, because very few squares in the game actually let you plop down a settler. The 300-shield settlers basically make AI civs retarded, so they're not much fun to conquer.

3. The slowness of the science research guarantees a monotonous game which is 100% decided in the ancient era. That defeats one of the neatest features of Civ3. All your work about fancy troops that come later on is wasted. For example, elephants are neat units, but sadly, everybody died before Chilavlry was even discovered! I spent a week of leigeonaries killing spearmen. Not so great!

4. Nations were very reluctant to fight each other, at least in the ancient times. In my earlier game as Arabia, China had taken over a big chunk of Asia, built lots of cities, and in general, made a powerful rival. This is all in a game in which the only realistic way to increase your power is through conquest, because settling lots of new territory is out of the question.

OK, that's enough to get started. I appreciate all the hard work behind this mod, and if it hadn't been made, I would have quit Civ3 a long time ago. I understand the motivation behind the changes, but I think they actually detract from gameplay. Sure, I probably should have been playing on Deity instead of Monarch. That would have made the science go faster and nations would have been somewhat harder to overrun. But it seems like there should be a simpler way of finding balance!

I think the most important fix: make Roman Leigeonaries cost more. 20 shields would still leave them incredibly powerful, since swordsmen are weaker and cost 30. At 10, they are just the world's vermin.

1. Legionaries: They are still cheap to build in version 1.92; however there are considerable more tweaks that should make controlling such a huge empire more difficult. In tests I have run using the latest patch Iron Working isn’t discovered until around 1000BC. This gives most of the AI's time to build up. The Romans, Mongols are two Civs that can pose a serious threat to completely overrunning the world - which is good but not good it it’s too exaggerated. If the problem persists even with the newest patch and playing on deity setting I will address the problem :)

2. Settlers: Good point and it has already been addressed in 1.92.

3. Slowness of science research: I couldn’t agree more. I fiddled around considerably with the tech rate and time in history trying to strike a balance. It is still very slow in the beginning but through exploration, contacting and trading with other Civs you should be able to keep up. Remember though some Civs are meant to be backwards thus the problems facing them unique and different than the problems facing others. Again I would like you to try version 1.92 then get back to me.

4. Nations were very reluctant to fight each other: I noticed that too, but my latest test has shown otherwise. It’s an all out war! One time the Chinese were crushed, another time the Turks, and the latest test the Arabs and Indians ganged up on the Persians. 1.92 I believe will alleviate many of your concerns.

Thanks for the input - seriously - its greatly appreciated! I should mention however that I highly recommend you play at deity difficulty setting so we both can compare results. As for the suggested changes I agree with you on all of them and if the same problem persists while playing deity and with the new patch I will implement the suggested changes.

I am looking forward to hearing from you again! :goodjob:

Hey TET,

For starters: thanks a lot for the new version. We all greatly appreciate all the work you put into this.

The game i am currently playing is in version 1.9, monarch difficulty, as the Egyptians. If anything i comment on has been fixed/changed in version 1.92, ignore it.

The first thing probably has nothing to do with your mod. It looks like it could be a civ bug. When i killed the last defender in Mecca, it generated my first great leader :goodjob:. However, after winning my war chariot retreated, and Ramses was standing in the middle of Mecca, which was still in Arab control. Since the town was effectively undefended, i could just walk into it to conquer, but it was still a funny sight. I added a screenshot of this.

Since I am unable to build settlers, and i haven't seen any other civs build new cities, i assume nobody is supposed to, at least until industrialisation iirc. After pounding the Arabs down to 1 city though, i discovered otherwise. They were left with just Mogadishu after i extorted their last 2 cities in peace negotiations. Soon after this, new arab cities emerged on the african continent.

I've kept savegames of both these events, in case you want to check them out for yourself.

I haven't played these new versions long enough or often enough to make a well founded judgement about this, but i expect the more powerfull civs have become even more so. Since there are no settlers or wonders to build and waste hundreds of shields on, every AI starts amassing troups from turn 1. This means ofcourse that the large nations are soon unstopable. In my game, for example, the Indians crushed the entire persian empire before 1000 BC. And with just spearmen, archers and swordmen. I don't know if there is much you can do about that, but it strikes me as wrong.

Finally, i've noticed the 1 tile islands are still in. We've discussed this earlier if you remember. Suppose for example i would conquer carthage, there would be no way for me to get to Corsica or Sardinia before marines. In the meantime one of those would have become the carthagian capital, and start culture flipping my cities for thousands of years, with no way to stop them.

Finally, i've noticed the 1 tile islands are still in. We've discussed this earlier if you remember. Suppose for example i would conquer carthage, there would be no way for me to get to Corsica or Sardinia before marines. In the meantime one of those would have become the carthagian capital, and start culture flipping my cities for thousands of years, with no way to stop them.
Yes I had totally forgotten this! Thanks for reminding me, I will address it right away – but I don’t quite care for adding a tile, instead perhaps I can give foot units “amphibious ability”?

expect the more powerfull civs have become even more so. Since there are no settlers or wonders to build and waste hundreds of shields on, every AI starts amassing troups from turn 1. This means ofcourse that the large nations are soon unstopable. In my game, for example, the Indians crushed the entire persian empire before 1000 BC.
Your observation is correct however if you look at the city version of the mod where two Civs are side by side you will notice there isn’t a huge variance in power between them. A few Civs such as Korea & the Mongols did however fall into the plight you described and most often died early on – but this is not the case anymore. Also there is a new concept that will be implemented for version 2.0 - new improvements, resources etc. They will be given to key Civs – namely the Colonizing powers of Europe at a specific times resulting in increased research rate, production, worker performance etc. These Civs will look small at the onset however though they will pack a punch that will be felt from the Atlantic to the Pacific.

Thanks for tips! :)

I have been playing version 1.7, and been enjoying myself immensly. After reading all the comments about 1.92, I am a little hesitant to install it on my computer. Is there a way to have both versions (1.7 and 1.92) on my machine so I can run games using both versions at different times? I am not quite as mod savvy as many of you.

Thanks again TET for a fantastic mod!

Tet, if you gave foot units amphibious ability, then you'd have legions storming your cities by sea, etc. It could greatly unbalance the game.

How big of an update is 1.92 gonna be? The game I started is great and I don't want to have to quit and start over for a few minor changes.

Originally posted by iamliberal

Benderino, I thought you can only name Elite troops that produce Leaders??



No, in PTW, they have an option to name all, its really fun. In just Civ 3, with one of the patches, then you could only name Elite units that produce leaders.

This is a more complex problem than I had originally thought.

options are as follows:

1. add a tile to every single tile island
2. add a amphibious unit early on, that eventually upgrades to marines.

I am leaning towards the second, some kind of sailor unit? - input is welcome.

----------------------------
If you are playing a game already and enjoying it keep playing of course however the results you get may not be so useful to me since many of the problems you encounter may already have been addressed in the new patch.

----------------------------
renaming units, I played a regular PTW game and couldn't rename units :confused:

There's a little button down where it has all of the unit commands. The button has an "abc" on it. You must have a unit selected that hasn't moved this turn to do this.

Anyway my game crashed so I'll start a new 1.92 one. You don't have it posted yet, do you?

Does the units have to be elite in order to rename them?
I have tried to rename a unit in the mod or just regular PTW game but with no success...

TETurkhan why doesn't the warrior upgrade to the Legionary, I just started a game and built like 20+ warriors waiting tell I had Legionarys to upgarde the warriors and come to find out I can't upgrade warriors to Legionarys?:mad:

Why can't you upgrade? Is it because there is no option to or due to the game crashing etc?

I configured warriors to be upgradable - however if you have conflicting patch you most likely will encounter problems. Download 1.92 - its ready for :)

Originally posted by TETurkhan
Does the units have to be elite in order to rename them?
I have tried to rename a unit in the mod or just regular PTW game but with no success...

Oh. Well, that's odd. I too haven't been able to, but in any other PTW game I can. Its weird, cause your scenario wan't made before PTW, was it? So, it should come with it, or at least I'm sure it's possible. Technically, in PTW games, they don't ahve to be elite, they could be anything, even workers.

About your query in regards to those "early marines", I suggest you go with option 2 as well. Sailors would be neat, and there were marines used during the time of frigates (in the American Revolution the Brits had marines). The Genoese were famous for their sailors. I think thkat it would be a good investment, or you could just give everyone Beserks ;)

I prefer some sort of early marine units because adding another land square to each island would not work.... all you'd have to do to protect a 2 square island is move a military unit to the open land square and one guarding the city. then it's the same problem as a one square island.

Tet, before you said to test, send an email when we're done. Well games for me take a really long time, but I can give you updates as I'm playing. Is this ok or do you want the whole game report? Also I usually play on Emperor, but I will make an exception if you want and go up to Deity.

Everyone -- to rename units you need to go to the preferences and enable "Show Advanced Unit Actions" I believe. For some reason, this does nothing in Tet's mod, but it works in ordinary PTW.

Tet -- I think one type of early marine unit would be good, but nothing too powerful -- remember that the Vikings get their berserker which is a powerful marine unit, and you don't want it to be overshadowed by other units.

Here's something I noticed in my 1.90 game (still DLing 1.92). I played as England, and while Rome did a hell of a job conquering Europe and taking cities, other civs were not taking cities. Scandinavia leveled Russia but did not take any of their cities, despite the fact that Scandinavia really needed to expand southwards into Europe. Instead they just leveled them. Same with much of the other civs. Every now and then a city was captured (I'm assuming the AI doesn't keep a city if it is too close to another city), for instance India was carved up by China, Persia, Mongolia, and Korea, and many of the cities were taken, not destroyed. Yet for some reason none of the Russian cities were captured at all. Is there a civ-specific reason for this, or was this perhaps just the AI making its own decisions?

I'm really impressed with the way tech has been going. It's not been traded obscenely so far. Eqypt quickly reached the middle ages (around 1000 BC), but did not share her tech with anyone else, and the second civ to reach the middle ages was Persia, but only after she captured the Great Library for herself. I think this is interesting, but at the same time makes Alexandria the key city to get, even if for only one turn! ;-)

I did notice that while I was able to build settlers (pioneers, actually, being England), none of the other civs were doing so. As I said, Russia was leveled, as was most of Germany, and a lot of empty terrain was created, and it was no challenge for me to colonize it. Even waiting for London to build 6 pioneers (a very long time) proved no hassle, as nobody bothered to settle the area. While I do think it's a good idea to make the AI build less settlers (so as to not drive themselves into the poor house) it seems like something that a wiley human can take advantage of to beat the AI.

Originally posted by TETurkhan
Why can't you upgrade? Is it because there is no option to or due to the game crashing etc?

I configured warriors to be upgradable - however if you have conflicting patch you most likely will encounter problems. Download 1.92 - its ready for :)


I have version 1.92 and the option is not there but I can build it in the cities.

Yeah, I'm using 1.92. I even checked in the editor and it doesn't allow contact trading until Nationalism, so I knowit's not that. I'm playing as the Germans on Monarch level. It wasn't that I was allowed to trade the techs, I wasn't given that option, but somehow the AI is still trading techs because by turn 4 I had contact with everyone but Japan and the Songhai.

Even if the AI traded contacts before the discovery of Nationalism you shouldn't be able to... I can understand you making contact with all Civs surrounding your territory however to make contact with all 31 Civs is very unusual. Send me a copy of your save game and I will look into it for you :)

So, I finally started a game in 1.92 I'm playing at Emperor because I usually play Monarchy and don't feel like Deity. Hopefully, my input will still be helpful. Most importantly, I'm having a challenging adn FUN game! :)

I'm playing Egypt (first time not playing a European civ in a TET game). I really like a lot of the changes, especially the preplaced great wonders! I'm enjoying only having contact with my neighborhors, and seeing them/us all fight each other instead of Carthage declaring war on China!
However, I'm finding not being able to manage Right of Passage Agreements (or even war alliances because Wrtitng took us soooo long to develop) rather diminishes the quality, importance, and excitement of diplomacy. I'm not sure how to fix it because I understand why you made the changes, but maybe someone has a creative idea?

I have 2 recommendations:

I think Egypt should be able to build a few settlers (or are they called pioneers now?).... there's lots of open land and doesn't make sense not be able to at least build ONE or TWO more cities.

Also, I recommend pulling the reigns in on Songhai a little bit. In my game, they are POWERFUL. THey have a lot of cities and are just as advanced as the scientfic leads, Persia and Greece. In real life, it seems like the West Africans should not be very advanced or threatening, a rather disorganized civilization. I think the Impi units should either have good offense or good defense, but not both. Or perhaps leave them the way they are, but make them cost like 4 times as much. LIke more thant 16 or 20 Impi showed up at my doorstep (Egypt) very early.

Happy Civing everyone!

Originally posted by Taurendil
The first thing probably has nothing to do with your mod. It looks like it could be a civ bug. When i killed the last defender in Mecca, it generated my first great leader :goodjob:. However, after winning my war chariot retreated, and Ramses was standing in the middle of Mecca, which was still in Arab control. Since the town was effectively undefended, i could just walk into it to conquer, but it was still a funny sight. I added a screenshot of this.


Is the addition of the nationality in the city name a Tet mod change in 1.92, or is this an option that is always available in Civ III/PTW? This is something I really "need", as there are about 3 civs with only the slightest difference in color in one of my games.

Originally posted by Taurendil
The first thing probably has nothing to do with your mod. It looks like it could be a civ bug. When i killed the last defender in Mecca, it generated my first great leader :goodjob:. However, after winning my war chariot retreated, and Ramses was standing in the middle of Mecca, which was still in Arab control. Since the town was effectively undefended, i could just walk into it to conquer, but it was still a funny sight. I added a screenshot of this.


The same thing just happened to me.

Originally posted by Nil
Is the addition of the nationality in the city name a Tet mod change in 1.92, or is this an option that is always available in Civ III/PTW? This is something I really "need", as there are about 3 civs with only the slightest difference in color in one of my games.

No, its not a new addition to the Teturkhan mod. I think there's an option to show city nationality in normal civ3.PTW. It is very useful in tet's mods, since as you said some civs have the same colors.

Same Color Civs: I set it up so they all should have different color ones however for some reason they revert to same colors during game play. :confused:

Amphibious Units: I will be looking to add some for version 2.0.

I can rename units by clicking on the ABC button on the bottom during unit's turn just fine. I'm using version 1.92 and PTW v1.21

hmmm. Well, I'm stumped.

I downloaded the new 1.9 version and went through with the self extraction. But when i go to load the game, its not there, just the old TET files that came with PTW

That's because the installer overwrote the old ones... so just load those up. Unless you installed originally in other than the default...

(Right?)

Hi TET, I discovered a bug in the game. At first, I couldn't figure it out - the Carthaginianc declared war on Russia, the Japanese delcared war on Persia. How can this be when we can trade contacts??! No Carthaginian passed through my territory (Egypt) and no ships were getting past the pirates.

Then it happened to me and I figured it out. The problem is the Mutual Protection Pacts. For example, if Rome has a MPP with Spain, and then Carthage attacks Spain, then even if ROme and Carthage didn't previously have contact, they do now when Rome declares war on Carthage due to their MPP with Spain. I have contact with Russia and Poland now in my game as a result of this CIV BUG. I attacked Greece, who had a MPP with Poland (even though I don't have contact with Poland), and so POland declared war on me (Egypt). Now I have contact with them.

TET, this problem ends up undoing your efforts at keeping neighboring civs at war with each other instead of frivolous declarations of war with civs on the other side of the wold. Now, I'm starting to see the old patterns of units marching endlessly through neighbors' territory in pursuit of an enemy civ that they will never reach because peace will be gotten long before they can ever walk there!

I know it's a CIV game glitch that MPP let civs delcare war on civs they don't even have contact with. It's not the fault of the mod, but perhaps in 2.0 (or 1.93) you may want to get rid of MPP in the ancient era.

Good work TET, I'm enjoying 1.92!!

Sorry for all the trouble, my problem has been solved! :D
It turns out the button for advanced options was off in the preferences screen. Thanks for the help.

I wasn't able to trade the contacts, but I am assuming that the AI traded contact with me to everyone else which is how I was able to conduct diplomacy with all the rest of the civs.

And on another note, I like the starting wonders, but you might have to switch off the culture flipping because the wonders being in place from the start makes it real easy to flip the cities of neighbors that aren't lucky enough to start with wonders.

On the current game I've progressed much further, so I don't have that save game, but I'll start another game to show you the early contacts.

What's with the ability to build leaders? It makes it so you can build anything you want in 1 turn as long as you build the great leader first.

This problem arose before. I think you need to turn civ-specific abilities on or something like that. Or you may have the incorrect versions of the mod conflicting, or something. If not then I'm puzzled, but tet might have the answer.

Mungman - At first I thought it was changes you may have done to the game that caused this but this is not the case. After seeing your save game I have no answers as to why you have made contact with everybody within only a few turns. Do you have a save of this game earlier? Or does it do it all the time?

Sorry...

SethAdarion - Leaders cannot be built only created through war. Many people have encountered this problem and it is an install issue. It is very probable that you are either playing the wrong BIX or haven't followed the correct install instructions - though I have to admit its a bit tricky. Try re-installing everything - follow the instructions in the first post. Also remember that the mod installs itself in the default directory located on the C: Drive...

Tet, I agree with mungman on the wonders. I think they're great ideas to put them in starting cities, but the culture for them either needs to be removed, or lowered to perhaps just 1.

For smaller civs like Celts, its near impossible to keep cities. England has 3 or so wonders right there - Dublin doesn't stand a chance with all of them pumping out culture, even after rush-buying temples I lost my cities. I think the best thing to do for this would be to lower them to only produce 1 culture. Also -- if you're making the wonders already in place, I really think you need to give the Hwa-cha some defense, since Korea can never get a golden age now (I havent checked if you've done this already).

Hello Tet, you did a great job with this mod. :goodjob:

I'm playing with 1.92, as Romans, at Deity level.
The game is fair in Europe, but seems that Asia needs some tweaks.
In my game, Indians were destroyed by Persians in 1500 BC and Persians were destroyed by Tibetans in 600 BC, a little too soon.


bye
hypervx

Originally posted by D. Minky
Also -- if you're making the wonders already in place, I really think you need to give the Hwa-cha some defense, since Korea can never get a golden age now (I havent checked if you've done this already).

I disagree. I think a better thing to do would be to give it some offense. Nothing huge, but enough to get a Golden Age. If we give it offense but no defense, it can still be captured. Also, if we gave it defense one of 2 things would happen-

A) They would have to be more defensive than whatever Korea has (more defense points) then so they would be stacked on top, so they would get attacked instead of the defensive unit. This would make it so that they would be more powerful defenders and now Korea would end up building these rather than muskets, or whatever they'd have.

B) Give them less defense than whatever Korea has. Then it would be altogether harder to attack it though, you would pretty much put it out in the open, where it stands little chance of winning anyway, since its defence is less than par.

Also if you gave it defense, you'd just sit there waiting for the enemy to attack to trigger your golden age. I realize cannons are more of a defensive unit in real life but I think that it would be better to make them offensive in this mod.

Now it's almost impossible to get a cultural victory in this mod. I suppose that takes after real life. I haven't yet tried the city version, but I think Tet should make two versions-One with Wonders and one without. Then you could either play "historically" with wonders or have it more random and see who can build them.

I MUCH prefer the way the great wonders are distributed at the beginning of the game instead of building them. I mean, in some ways i miss the anticipation of building them, but there's nothingw worse than after like 100 turns, someone builds it! It's nice to not worry about them for once. On the flip side, I'm playing Egipt right now with 3 wonders, so maybe I wouldn't feel this way playing Celts or somehting.

ps. TET, any comments about my previous post regarding contacts through Mutual Protection Pacts???

You people are doing an amazing job testing the mod. :goodjob:
This will pay off tenfold when Version 2.0 comes out – I guarantee it! Also, I must say the level of understanding many of you are showing in how the game works is very impressive. I know the amount of time required testing the mod and for that many of you will be included in the credits for version 2.0

REPLIES:

• Early Elimination in Asia – Asia always seems to go through a huge war ending in one Civ being obliterated. Sometimes it’s the Persians that get sacked, other times the Indians, Turks and once in a while the Chinese. Unfortunately it’s not consistent enough to form a pattern, aside from the Mongols & Koreans who were always getting eliminated early on, but I have done a few things to prevent that now. You brought up a good point Hypbervx, and that being the balance formula of the mod. On one hand it is aimed at recreating history, yet on the other it attempts to allow for new possibilities. I am doubtful that any mod made for the game that spans all of time, from beginning to end will be exactly historically accurate. It is however the aim of this mod to recreate as much as possible yet make it fun, with new situations develop etc. This by the way was why I included the World Map without cities. No wonders, you could even randomize the resource locations and starting locations. It would be a much more dynamic game than the city version which is static in comparison.
• Mutual Protection Pact – Awesome point iamliberal! I couldn’t quite put my finger on why it was happening until now, though I did suspect it was the mutual protection pact. Based on this I will be moving move mutual protection further on into the game, the question now being where? Input is welcome. (BTW Mungman – I guess your problem with contacts is resolved! :))
• Wonders – Not all Wonders are built right at the start in the City version. Later around the start of the modern era you will be able to build them. I understand though what some of you are concerned about and it was a difficult decision for me to go this route. Ultimately though I wanted to keep the city version more historical in nature and thus felt adding Pyramids to Egypt etc gave it a more historical feel. As for culture flipping I am looking into cities that are most susceptible to this and debating on adding more improvements and units to ensure they don’t flip too early.
• Hwa-cha More discussion is needed for the Hwa-cha. The problem being that it never wins a battle thus Korea never enters their golden age – right? I don’t want to implement a change until we have thought of the best solution for this.

That’s it for now.
And again thanks very much for taking time out of your schedules to test the mod! :worship:

What do you mean by it being resolved? Did you check out the saved game I sent you? On that game it was only turn 3 and I had contact with nearly all the eastern hemisphere civs, and writing wasn't discovered yet, so I don't think it was the MPPs. I am playing PTW without the patch as of yet (had to reinstall everything and haven't gotten around to it yet) do you think that could be it, or maybe something else. So far, it hasn't made the techs too far of yet (I'm at 300 BC and just about to hit the middle ages) but it still gets the AI into idiotic wars.

Tet, here is the biggest problem I'm having so far.

I think the ancient ages last too long. I know you've tried to make them match with the tech, and they are, but I think perhaps the Tech and the # of turns should both be shortened. Here is why.

I am the Celts, and I've been amassing an army of Gallic swordsmen since I developed Iron Working in 1300 BC. I've had no distractions or anything to keep my from constantly building, so I have a pretty huge army (30 Gallic Swordsmen) but I cannot for the life of me take any enemy cities. All of my neighboring cities, even little Luxembourg, have at least 10 spearmen. There is nothing for the AI to build except spearmen. Even cities without walls are impossible to take. Larger cities like Berlin have over 15 spearmen in them, and I've been trying and trying, but I just can't take a city. They are invincible, and I lose nearly my entire army in a single turn.

Just trying it now, I lost 25 Gallic Swordsmen to Luxembourg, and they lost 7 spearmen. I cannot get tech fast enough to make more culture, so Rome is going to to continue culture-flipping my cities until all I have left is Munich... *grumble*

Hopefully 40 swordsmen will be able to take a city, but I think this is getting to the point of absurdity. This is also probably a reason the turns take so long. Right now, in 670 AD, turns take about 3-5 minutes. If the ancient ages went a bit faster, armies wouldnt be so incredibly and ridiculously huge.

Does the AI ever run wealth? Perhaps if you made it a better conversion rate, they'd choose that instead of building a massive army... perhaps 4:1 initially or even 2:1, improving to 1:1 with...whatever tech improves the rate?

Money could be used for troops, yes... but it wouldn't necessarily be. And rushing with money is not initially possible... I'd guess it would bring about more trades.

.Tet:Sorry didn't see your other post. To answer your earlier question, the contact thing happens with every game, I've even started another one as England and it still occurs.

Mungman - That is indeed very strange. I played Germans and it didn't happen to me. Do you have the latest patch - though even before that patch I never experienced what you are going through. Sorry so far no answer...:confused:

D.Minky - I know it can be hard but remember some Civs are suppose to be very hard to play. If you want things more even for each civ try the world version with out cities. Personally, I love Deity mod and love playing the hardest Civ - I save money, offer bribes do anything and everything to win. Sometimes I get crushed but thats the fun part - strange aren't I? :D

Originally posted by TETurkhan
D.Minky - I know it can be hard but remember some Civs are suppose to be very hard to play. If you want things more even for each civ try the world version with out cities. Personally, I love Deity mod and love playing the hardest Civ - I save money, offer bribes do anything and everything to win. Sometimes I get crushed but thats the fun part - strange aren't I? :D [/B]

I totally agree with this now :). First I was gonna do another moan thread about the Roman Legionaries being too strong and too cheap to build (3.3.1 for 10 shields which defies belief!) but now I see where you are coming from TeT.

I play diety too, infact although I dont wanna start one of these diety arguments I think everyone should. I mean lets face, the only major advantage the AI has on diety is in the expansion stage early on where it would expand at a 4:1 ratio to yourself. This is more why it flys ahead in techs rather than the free techs it receives every now and again.

In this mod the whole expansion element of the game is removed. Therefore for the vast part of the game, its putting your military strategy and tactics versus the AI's and lets face it, the AI is pathetic when it comes down to that. :D

I like the idea now that, if for example you wanna go the Romans then you can go them and relive history as the Roman Empire where it conquered most of Europe with its Elite Legionaries and the idea that some civs are much harder than others. It makes the replay factor extremely high when you can play it as a different civ and have a completely different game.
Fair enough it doesnt make the for the best game if you go the Romans but then thats your choice. They were powerful!! But what it does cater for is for those who dont go any of these civs.

Im currently England (far from the best civ, ok I start with three wonders but I only have 3 cities, and I need to build naval vessels on top of military to wage war, plus curruption is a massive problem with overseas cities I take). Playing on diety, I have conquered the British Isles, Spain and the North African tip of the Carthigian Empire. Rome has conquered France & Germany all with its Legionaries. We are the two big nations in western Europe but I am nothing compared to them in military might. I occassionally see a stack of 40ish legionaries going for a sunday stroll through my land. Its scary!! They are annoyed with me for no other reason than the fact that I exist but I am kissing ass at the moment to avoid any war! When war eventually breaks out I will receive a pounding (there's no doubt about that!) but then thats history:crazyeye:.

D. Minky

About the AI stockpilling spearmen in its cities because it has nothing else to build, I came across this problem too. But it wasnt really a problem, once my battered army returned to England from Spain defeated and discraced, I had to think :confused:. Remember what I mentioned earlier

the vast part of the game, its putting your military strategy and tactics versus the AI's

Introducing ... the catapult!!!! :D

Went back down to Spain, landed with 20 catapults, 6 spearmen and about 10 swordsmen on forests and hills around their northmost costal city (Compostella). First I cut of the remaining road routes in and out of the city with bombard (the 2 on grassland since I didnt wanna put my units there, negligable defence value on Grassland). Then I turned my attention to the city and 'gave them a volley!'. Took out the Barracks (no more 1 turn recharge!), Temple and then Harbour all in the first attack.

AI's turn
Tries to reinforce Compostella by bringing units from Madrid and Barcelona. Then only way in and out of Compostella was by a piece of grassland with no road :D. About a dozen units landed there.
My turn
Those dozen units are massacred, 20 catapults pounded them and the swordsmen went in for the kill!!
AI's turn
Try to get more units into Compostella
My turn
Massacred them
AI's turn
Have no more reinforcements, must build more
My Turn
We have camptured Compostella :D and we have a GL.

Now that wasnt entirely accurate but its a adaquete summary. Once I took Compostella, there was only little Spanish reistance left, its forces were obliterated in trying to reinforce save Compostella and we just moved on to the 'next' city. Basically what I'm trying to say here is improvise!! If you dont have mathematics, cut off his roads, pigs, cows etc, just focus on making the enemy weak. Leave bait, like a worker for him to attack 3 squares away then, ambush their units. Move your own units over forests and wait till theirs are over grassland and then go in for the kill. You'll begin amassing Elite swordsmen. These (when fully charged) attack the cities. The thing I think thats required in this mod is patience. Im into my 5th day or something like that now :p and I've only just entered the middle ages and become a Republican government.

TeT I'm making notes of what I research and when but Ill post a full review when the game is finished (lose!) rather than to stagger my input.

Peace

Kosh

Kosheen - You hit it right on with that post :) I know many think some aspects of the city version are exaggerated but its necessary... the key is to maintain balance between “encouraging” the recreation of history and yet still enabling the player to have a game that doesn’t always play the same…

Templar Knights, Muslim Holy Warriors, Mongol Horseman, Roman Legionaries – such units will bring death, destruction and doom if you happen to oppose them.

Sounds like you are having a good game there – my games also take days but usually they are worth it. :)

What happen to the Time Scale i 1.92?
I checked it out in the editor. The first 50 turns is 100 years each, the next 50 turns are 50 years each. That makes 7500 years in 100 turns. And the folowing setting really look strange.

I changed them back to the settings of 1.90.


I played Spain on emperor level (world map, no cities).
Built 3 towns. Got iron working by trading (very expensive). When I had 10 swordsmen I begun to expand. Conquered all the civs along the coast to the east. When I got chivalry I also reached Jerusalem and got contro, over the Holy Grail so I can build the templar knight.
They are awfully powerful units. They can attack twice each turn (not even cavalry can do that) and are very cheap to build. Most cities build one in one turn while other units takes many turns to build. With them I conquered the world halfway into Africa and all the way to the coast of Pacific Ocean and won a cultural victory after 70 hours and 1 minute and 43 seconds.
I met no serious threat.


Templar knights are too cheap compared to their power.

Computer players in Europe don't understand how to play when there is no free land to build towns on. They build lots of settlers and send then deep into Siberia and Africa. When I later arrived in those areas those towns all had been captured or destroyed by the civs that started in those areas.
My strategy: Don'ät waste expensicve settlers building hard-toi-defend towns far away from the main empire. Rather build tropps to conquer those civs that does so and thereby weakingen there main empire (Celts, France etc).
IF there are any way to make the cimputer players handle this situation better that would be nice.

The civs staring in areas with much forest (Russia, Scandinavians, Poland etc) don't understand that they have to build many workers and cut downs the trees to make room for city growth.

I really like like the reduced movent rates on road because it gives the feeling of the real distances, and the slowed down tech rate (no more tanks in year 1200 etc).

Keep up the good work TET!

Hey TET, I just want to let you know that I'm in the middle of one of the most fun CIV games I've played in a long long time!! I'm still playing Egypt (Emperor, 1.92). I think the adjustments from 1.7 are extraoridnary! THe balance is much much better, and things are progressing at about the right timeframe. My game has been really challenging and has taken all my skill to pull ahead. The only thing to still adjust, in my humble opinion is that Mutual Protection Pact we talked about earlier.

One thing I'm amazed is how well the AI is actually playing. They're making mass attacks, attacking each other on 2 fronts, and even ONCE IN AWHILE actually making smart alliances. It's nice not to see loads of settlers wandeing around, nor capitol cities enlessly building settlers.

I don't know what you did in 1.92 to fix this, but it's running very very fast on my machine now. While 1.7 took 5 or 10 inutes between each turn around 1000c, my current game is 120bc, we're about to enter middle ages (I'm workign on monarchy, already have currency and construction by great library), I have large cities (conquered Arabia, a couple of Greek and carthaginian cities), and there's only like 1 minute between each turn. I spend more time watching battles (which I know I could shut off in prefs) and selecting "OK" to who declares war on whom messages than I do waiting for the computer to calculate stuff. Again GREAT JOB TET!

OK, so I know this isn't a MOD problem, but man, diplocmacy sure needs some work in Civ 3 huh?! Isn't it silly that if Greece bribes Egypt to attack Russia, then why should Egypt's reputation (aka trade trustworthiness) with Greece be harmed?? In my current game, the very civs who should be pleased as hellw ith me (indeed, they're polite towards me) refuse to tade with me, which I can only presume is a result of my canceling peace 3 times in the entire game. You'd think my 'allies' would at least think I'm a SUPERB civ to trade with?! I have stacks of luxuries that I'd be happy to throw at them for a pittance, but nooo they wont'. Hrmph! OK, anyway, just wondering if anyone gets annoyed at this?

Good night!

Ah Tet, you are right. I guess I just wanted it to be easier for me to take cities, but if it were easy for the Celts to conquer, they would have ruled Europe instead of the Romans. ;-) I definitely agree that Deity is really the most fun level to play on. It's always fun to try to change history, so I will have to just try even harder.

Game will end at 1440 AD

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Originally posted by D. Minky
Here's an interesting note for my previous Hawch'a argument.

It seems that bombardment units *can* kill other units! I have no idea how, as in all of my previous games I have never once killed a unit by bombarding it! Even with jet planes and cruise missiles. However, in my current game I have catapulted two units already to death. One archer and one spearman. Both of them took 4 catapults to do. So maybe the hwach'a is underpowered (compared to other special units), but not totally useless for a golden age!


My catapult has been promoted to elite!!!!!

I had an error when extracting 1.66 update. I used WinRar. The the file is 55234 KB. There was about 1/10th left on the bar.
The error was:

CRC failed in CIV3PTW\Scenarios\TETurkhan\Art\Civilopedia\Icons\ Units\P38Lightninglarge.pcx
Unexpected end of archive

Any ideas? I'm redownloading

Kosheen, what are you talking about a mandatory retirement in 1440???

It just popped up, but im passed it now and it lets me carry on (although no more score counting but thats no big deal for testing).

I dont recall changing anything in the start settings. Anyway using 1.90 so it may be fixed for 1.92 :/

Here's an interesting note for my previous Hawch'a argument.

It seems that bombardment units *can* kill other units! I have no idea how, as in all of my previous games I have never once killed a unit by bombarding it! Even with jet planes and cruise missiles. However, in my current game I have catapulted two units already to death. One archer and one spearman. Both of them took 4 catapults to do. So maybe the hwach'a is underpowered (compared to other special units), but not totally useless for a golden age!

Version 1.93 http://www.civfanatics.net/~teturkhan/downloads/tet1.93-BIX.exe.


Hwa-cha - Siege units including Hwa-cha all have lethal bombard attribute, meaning they can kill units. :)

Game will end at 1440 AD – this is very strange indeed… and has never occurred in any of my testing. I know though that 1.90 through 1.92 had major time scale flaw which now has been fixed for 1.93 – for those of you that are testing using 1.90, 1.91 or 1.92 be advised to switch to 1.93 (if you don't want to download the entire file again click the link at the top of this post).

Sangria You are right – thanks! The bug you picked up is the reason for 1.93 :)

Amphibious Units – definitely will be included for version 2.0 – this should address the single island invulnerability problem.

tet...

what game specs should i play on?
specifically, what would you reccomend? deity with what victory conditions? and should i play with accelerated production or not? im guessing no, but dont want to start a game and then find out i could have half way into it.

thanks for all the countless hours youve put into this mod, it really shows! its GREAT work!

just one more thing...

after playing for a bit i got to thinking... if certain wonders are going to be specifically allocated to their actual owners to begin the game, it would be a great way to give advantage and disadvantage (as seen already) and those civs that maybe dont have their own pre-made wonder, maybe could have a civ specific palace with its own different cultural measurement... thus helping that civ out... or hurting it in the long run...

an idea at least

reedtwostep: New improvements will be added in version 2.0 to assist European Civs in particular – in order to help Western Europe’s rise to power during the age of exploration and industrialization times. :)

IDEAL GAME SETTINGS

Player Setup

• First I should mention that I use to recommend Regicide mod but not any longer. If you do select this the game will crash or freeze for insane length of time.
• All default settings except turn off respawn AI players IF you are playing the World Map with Cities version. If you are playing random map then I would say choose whatever your preference is.
• Deity

Preferences

• Select “Color Blind Help” – it helps distinguish between the many different colors that look very similar to one another.
• Select “Show Advanced Unit Action Buttons” – it gives you many more options in controlling your units.
• Depending on the speed of your computer you may want to turn off a number of animations. If this does not work good enough then I would even turn off some of your unit moves – but don’t turn off your enemy moves ;)

Hi Tet

When I played yesterday it came to big sea battle where i used a few Privateers. At the end of the battle I had an idea which will maybe add another historic point to your great mod :goodjob:. Privateers where used by many nations to capture other ships without risking a war (because no nations officialy has Privateers ;)with the other nations, but the goods they capture has to be shared with the King or Queen :king:. So if it is somehow possible I suggest that for every ship you kill using a Privateer one should recive some gold depending on the size of the ship you attack. Let's say for a Galley e.g 3 to 4 gold for a Treasure Junk 20-50 gold and so on.
For a Frigate which was later on in history used to hunt the Privateers and Pirates and to protect the slower and lesser armed ships one should not get an money. For Caravels and Galleons something between 10-20 gold. These are only suggestions, please feel free to change everything :D .

I wonder why I'm not getting emails telling me there have been responses in this thread anymore??

TET, what changes did you make to 1.93?? I assume that downloading 1.93 will only affect future games, not my current game that I've been playing with 1.92?

iamliberal, there was a numerical flaw in the Time Scale for the Random & World Map versions of the mod – Sangria brought it to my attention.

Kez – that is a great idea, and you should look for it in version 2.0!

On page 45 or so I mentioned some shortcomings of my game in 1.8x with Romans on Monarch.

Tet asked if I could try 1.92 with Romans on Deity. I did this, and I finally have something to report. What I wil say will make most sense when seen contrasted to my report on the earlier version with Monarch. I will break up my report into two postings, one one with a narration of my game, and another (more important one) with my analysis.

-- Romans, Deity, Tet 1.92 w. cities ---

Recall that I was worried that Roman Legionaries were too cheap and too powerful. The ultimate test of whether that's true is to try the game on Deity.

Game plot - This is optional reading. Feel free to skip to the next post with the analysis. ---

As Rome, I started out in a pretty good position to get a leg up on trade, because I immediately had contact with several neighbors. Putting a warrior in each town made initial contact much faster. In the first round I managed to pick up all the available sciences from my neighbors, plus all of their initial workers. I used some of those to walk around Europe and get everyone on my contacts list. The scout was also very useful.

I rush-built temples as fast as I could. I figured it was better to do it earlier, because I would be forgiven sooner. Anyway, there is nothing really worth building until Iron Working is discovered. That finally happened in 1800BC - I think the Turks found it. I wasn't doing any science except the one "nerd" citizen, working on Mathmatics. I had lots of money to spend. When Iron Working came around, every tile of Italy was mined and every town had a temple and barracks. I had already produced quite a few veteran spearmen waiting for Iron to show up.

Meanwhile, there was a very early and very devastating war: the Songhai destroyed all of the Cartheginian towns in Northern Africa, and took over Carthage itself. When the Spaniards saw this, they destroyed the two Iberian cities that belonged to Carthage. For the rest of the game, Carthage only had Sardinia (Since Corsica fell to me by culture).

My plan of action was simple, and dictated by the new pre-distributed wonders. I was very lucky to be close to the most important wonder of all, Bach's Cathedral. The plan was to walk over the Celts in the Alps and to my best to take the Germans and Berlin. This part was pretty exciting. On Deity the AI produces a flood of units, and if it used them more effectively I probably would not have won those wars.

During this war, something very scary happened. After I attacked Germany, Scandinavia, Turkey and Russia all declared war on me. Since it was the first war for all these countries, I expected a flood of all their excess archers to start invading. Fortunately, I managed to get Hungary on my side, and since they all had to go through Hungary to get to me, I was basically shielded. The Viking provocation also gave me an opportunity to take Copehagen once I got done with Germany.

Maan, Bach's Cathedral made a huge difference. I could afford to build decent-sized cities, and even all the rush-building that I did because of the incredible construction costs was taken in stride. Basically, Bach's Cathedral turned the game from Deity to Regent difficulty, because each city got two free content people.

But I wasn't done. I had to turn on Hungary, my former ally. They occupy the best land in Europe, and I always want either a palace or a Forbidden Palace in Budapest. I did an FP there with a leader. This was the toughest war in the game. My resources were really stretched, and several of my city invasions just barely succeeded.

Once Hungary was mine and the Forbidden Palace was built, I knew I was unstoppable, so I started fooling around a bit. I probably should have wiped Europle clean, but I have a soft spot for Poland and France, so I let them live and concentrated on Greece. Greece is a big deal because Constantinople is the gateway to great riches. Also, the Oracle added yet more contentment to my empire. It became pretty easy to get my cities to make a Legionary in every turn. When I built embassies, I noticed that even with Deity bonuses, my rivals could not even build a swordsman each turn, not even in their capitals.

My initial plan was to push for Persia and rebuild my palace somewhere there, so that I get the benefit of those rich lands as well as Europe's. I abandoned that plan, though. For one thing, I noticed that corruption in 1.92 is worse than before, so I was worried that Budapest could not pull all of Europe on its own. Also, I was producing fast enough.

After Greece, I had an interesting decision to make. The Abyssinians, who are very tough, had sent Impi through Egypt and took Jerusalem. I needed that city as a staging ground for my attack on Egypt. Yeah, how could I resist all those wonders? But there were maybe 40 Impi running around in the Arabian desert. In the end, I went for it, deciding only to defend my towns and one supply road.

On a longshot, I had my nerd citizen investigate construction, and amazingly, he discovered it before anyone else in the world (... on Deity!?).

Because my vast mobs of Legionaries required no mainatence gold, I made lots of workers, and they quickly fortified my important exposed roads. The Abyssinians then turned their attention to Persia. But because I was scared of further mobs of them coming from Africa, I made an alliance with Egypt to fight them. The consequence was that the Abyssinians took Suez, because they happened to have a big mob nearby when war was declared. That was wonderful for me, because I took it from them two rounds later. Now, the Abyssinians in Asia were cut off from their African supply routes, and they gradually killed themselves in suicide runs on Persian cities.

Now I got cold feet about taking Egypt, not because I thought it would be hard, but because it seemed so mean. Cleopatra liked me and stuff. But then she made peace with the evil Abyssinians and became "annoyed" with me for some reason. That was a sign, well that and my suspicion that she was selling some of the sience that her Library gave her for free. She had to die, about as quickly as legionaries can walk across Egypt. I don't think I lost more than 8 units in the whole war, and I made almost twice that many each turn.

The reason why the science trading pissed me off is because I wanted world progress to go as slowly as possible. The longer it takes for Legionaries to go obsolete, the more time I have to kick ass. When I controlled the library, I made sure to not sell anything, except to completely harmless and backwards rivals. In my analysis, you'll see this worked too well.

I was not in Egypt very long when the Songhai declared war on me (c. 250BC), out of the blue. Luckily they did it before their Impi were within striking range. In the few turns that I had, I turned Egypt into a fortress. I a fortified road from Benghazi to Thebes, and from Thebes to the Red Sea. Then I also had a fortifed road east of the Nile from Thebes to Napata. These were the only Egyptian cities that were exposed, and by the time the Songai got to them they had walls and able defenders. Despite the fortifications, the Songhai could have broken through my box and rampaged around in Egypt. They never tried to do that, though. They just threw themselves at the cities like a bunch of suicidal lemmings. At one point, they lined up about 90 veteran Impi to take Benghazi. I thought they would succeed. Fortified legionaries in a walled city are hard to kill, but after about 40 attacks, things were looking grim. Even a great leader that was born in the defense had to go hand-to-hand with an Impi. Then, after about 60 Impi died and I thought Benghazi would fall, the Songhai retreated. That was really fun. Altogether, about 300 threw themselves at my fortified cities. In the whole war I lost about 10 legionaries, but countless many survivors turned elite and there were several great leaders.

But the whole Egyptian defense was a side project. I wasn't sending waves of reinforcements there, and I made no attempt to strike back at Songhai cities. The main project was the gathering of a vast army in Arabia. First I conquered the Arabs, which I did reluctantly, because they never did anything wrong to me and I liked Abu. They were fighting the remaining Abyssinians and not doing very well at it. But then I got impatient with them and I could't resist the wonderful Hanging Gardens of Baghdad.

Another side project to which I commited limited troops was the conquest of Poland and then Russia. The Russians had dozens of toops running aimlessly through the forest. If those troops had been defending their cities, it would have been a real war, but as it was, it was a walkover.

Oh, and the easiest side project of all was the conquest of France. That took exactly two turns. Spain tried sending a huge mass of veteran swordsmen to war with someone. I didn't let them pass, but I got a mean idea: I would trap them south of the Pyrrenese until Toulouse had walls, and then I would declare war and let them attack. Again, this was very entertaining, as archers and swordsmen tried in vain to beat down Toulouse. About 60 Spanish units died this way, and maybe six of mine. At this point it was the first century BC and I was just fooling around.

I finally walked over Persia in AD 50 because I had about 1000 unemployed Legionaries who were tired of sitting in a garrison. Then I thought I'd make things interesting so I contacted every single civilization that I knew and declared war on them. So far, that's going my way, though parts of my empire should have been better reinforced--especially Russia. Some of my outlying cities might fall to the Chinese, but they're ignoring me for now, as they got themselves into a war with India (who earlier took all of Cambodia). Anyway, remember that this is a Deity game in the first century AD, and it wasn't exactly played meticulously or expertly.

Analysis (referring to above game description):

The original question was whether Legionaries are too tough and/or too cheap. I think the answer is a qualified yes. I say qualified because steps could be taken to minimize the power that Legionaries have to dominate.

One obvious fix would be to make research go faster so that they quickly become obsolete. The problem is that even against musketmen they can put up a good fight, and muketmen cost 60 (30 for Deity AI) while Legionaries cost 10. The Legionaries will win that fight. An extreme version of early obsolescense would be that Legionaries become unbuildable at the advent of Monotherism, replaced by a superior, more defensive unit which costs 50 or 60. If Rome discovers Monotheism when they're supposed to according to history (400AD), that would pour some cold water on the Legionary plans. Of course if Rome has the Great Library, they should discover Monotheism when the Israelites and others did, well before 600 BC.

In this case it's a moot point because in the game itself, nobody even had Currency by 150AD. That's amazingly slow science for a Deity game, much slower than Earth history, even. Of course, this is all to the benefit of Legionaries.

A more simple solution would be to make the Legionaries cost more shield, something like 20.

In any case, they should cost gold to maintain. I can't believe I had an army of 1000 units scattered around the world, and I was paying no maintenance costs. In the previous version I played, where Legionaries did cost 1 gold/turn, I tried to kill them as quickly as possible, but because my empire was so vast, literally hundreds of them were en route their battle at any given time, seriously straining my treasury. But I think that's realistic. Far away wars in ancient days should be more expensive than nearby ones.

About the pre-built wonders: I really like the idea, but you should compensate for the fact that inevitably, the wonders will be concentrated in Europe. That gives a huge advantage to any agressive European power. It's just too tempting and too easy to simply sweep through Europe, one small country at a time. One simple way to reduce the temptation is to give all European cities free walls. Actually, that's a great idea. You might want to go further and designate a special European defender, who costs the same as a spearman and defends like a pikeman. Then the pikeman would be 1.4.1 and every other defensive unit would also get a bump of 1.

Alright, that's to adress the ready conquerability of Europe. Now to address intercontinental campaigns: The Greeks are the gateway to/from Asia. They should be harder to cross. I'd say the Hoplites should defend at 4, and at least some of the cities should begin with a Barracks. (Remember Sparta?) In my game, most of the Hoplites I fought were regulars.

Not to say that we want to stop the Legionaries, and none of these countermeasures would. But they would make things more difficult and more interesting.

On a general note:

Because of the slowness of scientific research, special care must be taken that events in the ancient era don't by themselves decide the course of the game. Unlike in the real world, huge ancient empires don't "rot from the inside" in Civ3. Modest gains should be possible for civilizations that traditionally thrived in the ancient era, like the Romans. But steps have to be taken to make sure those gains really are modest and not something like the conquest of India in the BC times (which is very easy on 1.92/Deity).

So though engineering the march of the Legionaries in the game is historically realistic, realism requires us to also engineer the downfall of the Roman era and the flowering of other cultures. Doing the latter is indeed hard. So, for example, what steps can we take to see to it that the Spanish develop the awesome Armada and dominate the seas for centuries? That's just one example... realistically, Spain in the game is one of those "nothing" countries, which seems unjust. They definitely need some special cheap naval units. I only bring this up because one natural reaction to what I'm saying goes like this: "So you're telling me that Legionaries kick ass... fine! They're supposed to!" True, but many other things are also supposed to happen that can't, because the game has no mechanism to dissolve the Roman empire and let others have their turn.

Of course we can't fix that limitation, but we can take steps to minimize it. One of them is to make sure that all or most the European powers hold their territory into the modern era. That requires strong defenses and able defenders. Especially with its wonders, Europe is such a rich continent that the game ends once it falls under a single power. Any steps to prevent that would surely improve the Tet mod.

Here is how I picture the improved version: Europeans should have very good attack units, but truly excellent defeder units, on par with or better than the Tibetan monk. The strong defenders will prevent any single European state from expanding too much, so their attackers do not pose much of a threat to the world, because as long as European states don't grow they will never produce the attackers in huge numbers. This contrasts with vast countries like India and China, which should have tons of crappy units. Europeans may well conquer stuff outside of Europe, but they won't make much there because of corruption. What's important is that the states in Europe keep their integrity as long as possible. For this they all need super defenders. And this I think is the best answer to the Legionaries question. I'd be happy to see them left alone if every other state in Europe had defenders as good as the Tibetan monks, and cities that come with walls. That would force players to do something more creative than the obvious and boring "roll through Europe" plan. (One thing I just thought of: can you create a new city improvement which cannot be built but may come native in the city, which adds a 50% defensive bonus on top of any other defensive bonuses from walls or whatever? If this is possible, I think every European city should have one - in addition to better European defenders. Oh, and like Temples, the defensive bonus thing should disappear if the city ever changes hands.)

OK, enough on the "European Integrity" stuff. On to some more specific observations about gameplay in 1.92/Deity.

1. The AI is certainly not shy about declaring wars, something which rarely happened in 1.8/Monarch. It seems that they have many units which they are eager to burn off. Unfortunately, they use far too few of these units to protect their cities. In my game, the Russians had about 30 spearmen running through the forest when the last Russian city was destroyed... with only 3 spearmen protecting it. And it's not like the 30 in the forest didn't have enough time to get into a city. Well, maybe that's an AI limitation you can't fix. Anyway, because of the way the AI fights wars, they usually emerge in a very weakened state because they send to many units forward, all without concentrating their attacks in a specific place. (There are exceptions to this, like the glorious Songhai suicide run. But that happens too rarely. Typically, they send 8 attackers against a city every turn. If they waited 4 turns and sent 32, may have had a chance to break through.)

I know that this may not be mod-fixable, but it's important for overall gameplay because most of the civilizations you face quickly become mere shells of their former selves because just about all of them have gone through very costly wars. In my game, Tibet basically destroyed Persia and India's military power, to the point where you could almost walk in and take over an Indian city. Yet the Tibetans actually took very few cities because they didn't want to commit enough troops to defeat three spearmen. All that makes it too easy for the human player. I guess that's why we should play Deity.

I think I like the fact that we can't build settlers. That was one of my complaints in 1.8x - that the AI spends too many shields on settlers and not enough on defending itself. That problem has been fixed. However, some of the civilizations, especially in Africa and the Americas have as their greatest strength the capacity to expand. To compensate them, I think there should be lone barbarian settlers scattered in the uncharted lands. And I'm not talking about the way we have it now, with a stack of 5 settlers guarded by forces that can't be defeated before the industrial age. I'm serious. It pissed me off that a maxed-out army of legionaries, the world's strongest attackers, could not defeat the weakest of the barbarians, a 13 hit-point Hun. The army had 90 hit points - many of its members were elites. Now, that's just silly. I'd much prefer smaller prizes, like a single settler, for a fight that a full ancient army could actually win. Of course, the ones with the first shot would be the states who are the closest, which is as it should be. Europeans a navy or powerful expeditionary forces could also get in on it. I think this is a great idea, but the present barbarians are stupidly tough.

Somehow Arabia found a cache of attainable settlers and made a bunch of cities down the east coast of Africa, and the Vikings must have defeated some barbarians and founded Reykjavik and Helsinki. Other than that, by 150AD, no cities were built, and many were destroyed. I do understand the sense behind waiting for Astronomy before allowing colonizers, but that's little consolation if the game is long over by then. It seems to me that Astronomy should just come sooner, but also that armed expeditions into the badlands should leave a decent chance for new settlements long before the age of astronomy.

Another thing that's new in 1.9x is the pre-distribution of wonders in their historical locations. Unfortunately, the great majority of those wonders are in Europe or around the Medeterranean, including all of the crucial "happiness" wonders. That makes it too easy for an ambitious power to settle the game early on, simply by conquering the few pushover states in Europe. I can't emphasize enough why new versions of the mod must make this very hard to do, forcing the player to try something more interesting and creative, possibly involving sciences discovered after the ancient era. Hey, this is a mod after all, and the idea of special rules for Europe should be taken seriously. After all, history goes that way as well.

Because there are no wonders to build, constantly staying on the cutting edge in science becomes less important. Also, great leaders become far less important. I got at least 10 in my BC rampages. Most of them made armies. Unfortunately, the AI didn't know how to handle the new "fightable" leaders at all. In fact, though I saw several great AI leaders, all of them were used for city defense. There was an elite great leader guarding Berlin and Baghdad, for example. Now, given it's the ancient era, these leaders do a decent job as guards - but a simple army can destroy them every time. The AI was not shy about building armies in the 1.5 Tet mod (from the PTW cd), and that added some spice to the game. (I personally destroyed at least 7 full Chinese armies). The biggest problem in not cashing in the great leader for an army is that no other great leaders can be created. That's just poor strategy for the AI. I have a feeling that the problem began when the leaders got hit points. Oh, and I also got the problem of leaders created while a city is conquered, and not having the city turn into my property. This is no big deal, as you can simply select another unit, walk it into the city, and then the changeover happens.

One last thing: It seems that as version numbers of the Tet mod get higher, so does the cost of city improvements. I imagine that the idea behind it was to make the ancient era less eventful, since everyone spent a long time waiting for their temples and barracks to get built. The practical upshot of this is that rush-building becomes an indispensable strategy. That may not be bad, but we know the AI is terrible at rush-building, so in effect it's another unfair advantage to the human. It doesn't help that one citizen seems to be worth 120 shields now. The official game patches are tending in the direction of lowering the rewards for pop rushing. Maybe that's lazy of Firaxis, and the better solution would be an AI that knows how to effectively rush-build. But they didn't give us that, and the Tet mod does too much to highlight this AI weakness. I have to think that the Firaxis decision to reserve the use of rush-building for emergencies might be the wise one. If you had to sit and dilligently wait for a barracks to be built, that really would slow down the military buildup and make the ancient era less eventful (which needs to happen).

In general, this mod plays too much to AI weaknesses and not enough to its strengths. One of its strengths is quick and logical expansion, but that's out when settlers got removed. The new Tet mods basically require rampant militarism and rushing, two things the AI is terribly weak at. As a result, an average player like me can easily beat the world with ancient-era units on the highest difficulty setting. That's a bad sign. Unlike with the Europe thing, I don't have any specific recommendations about how to fix this, but I want to flag it as a worry I have.

Alright, that's enough of me talking about my worries. The reason why I dwell on them so much is because I really love the Tet mod and the inspiration behind it. If it didn't exist, Civ3 would have long been deleted from my computer. Tet's noble goal is to do a good job lining up the game and world history. Much of it works, and I want more of it to work. I can't promise to test future versions because it takes sooo long, but since I invested all this time into "testing", I thought I should write up some observations for the benefit of those who come after.

Tet - Does this mean that we will have to start an entirely new game to play 1.93 ??? Or can we just update the version we have and still play our saved game?

By the way, at this rate we will be at version 2.0 in no time! :lol:

spork Legionaries do cost 20 shields, I must say great Game Analysis:goodjob:

I just have to check this beacaue the numbers look strange (?).
Is this the way the time scale in ver 1.93 shall be?

First 5 turns = 100 years each.
Next 50 = 50 years.
Next 105 = 10 years.
Next 64 = 20 years.
Next 116 = 4 years.
Next 48 = 2 years.
Next 462 = 1 year.

A question about research: Isn't it true that the AI doesn't do 'token' research, they always put a decent percentage in, even if they are still doing minimum-turn research?

This means the AI will be throwing away huge amounts of money in to research while you coast along at 1 beaker per turn.

I'm not sure how this problem could be tackled, or even if it's true (but I think it is).

Sangria - the tech scale you listed is right for the world map and city versions - however the just mod version is somewhat different...

anarres Interesting. Not sure how to find this out - I will look into it though.

Spork Awesome analysis!!! :eek: You just earned yourself a spot in the credits :)

I need some help here plain and simple.

In the beginning when the mod was first made I wasn’t inclined to ask for outside assistance. But, after reading the posts in this thread, especially since the posting of 1.90 it is very clear that many of you know this mod inside out. Not only are you picking out flaws, but you are also offering solutions that show you have a very deep understanding of the game, the mod and the editor.

Replying to posts, offering technical support along with working on the new version is just too much for me. I would be very appreciative if some of you could come forward and offer some help. Your names would of course be included in the credits and you would be the first to get the latest updates. I am certain with a good team in charge of this mod it probably will become one of the greatest ones ever made for Civ III. If you are interested then please email me at – teturkhan@hotmail.com, subject line: TET Team.

As for all you testers, some of you like spork whom I never knew about until now, please please please compile all your points about the mod, and if able investigate solutions to those problems and send them to me via email. You have no idea how valuable this information is. If you like this mod, then know that any and all input you offer is given serious consideration and by doing so you can make a definite difference in the mod's designed.

Thanks – and I will be checking my email box! :)

TETurkhan

Hey Tet,

A possible solution to some of the Euro Power balance could be to not place the wonders from the start. Not only does it give the Euros a lot of power it isn’t historically accurate. And we all know that the goal of this mod is historical accuracy. I know that you want the Wonders to be built in the proper cities and I have a way for that to happen without pre-placing them.

1) Make a new resource for each city that you want a wonder to be built in, e.g. Resource Rome, Resource, Alexandria, Resource Athens, etc.
2) Place these “City Resources” under each corresponding city
3) Make the appropriate Wonders require said “City Resource” be within the city radius in order to be built.
4) Now those wonders will only be able to be built in the city of your choosing.

I recommend that you then lower the costs of each wonder so that they can be built rather quickly by even the lowliest city. Otherwise you will see the AI spending inordinate amounts of time building the wonders when they should be building other things.

Hope that helps,

Kal

Kalel Great Idea! :goodjob: - And the resources could have techs that are pre-req for the resource to ensure they are built around the right time... this combined with the addition of city improvements etc for European Civs from the age of exploration through industrial age would do great! Funny I thought of doing this for city improvements but it didn't dawn on me to apply it to wonders as well - ??? mental block :crazyeye:

thanks Kalel!

TETurkhan,

I have done some enquiring and it appears that the AI will always put in a large percentage of commerce to research, even when they cost *lots*.

The only solution I can think to this is to lower the tech cost level, or to change the 'cost' factor for the different difficulty levels. Changing the cost factor will also knock-on to the production costs too, but so what eh? If Deity TET is like a Regent or Emperor vanilla game then I say change cost factor from 6 to 5 for deity, 7 to 6 for emperor, etc.

HTH,

anarres

I do what I can. :)

Could you also make it to where a Palace is required before you could build certain wonders? (I know that not all wonders are located in the capitals but alot of them are) If Kal-El's resource idea was used then the AI might end up building Shakespeare's in Edinburg or Magellen's in Madrid where they are not historically suppossed to be. However, even if this wasn't possible the trade-off of having the wonders built at around their correct historical times would outweigh any consequences.

By the way, excellent idea Kal-el :goodjob:

Originally posted by Zabba149
Could you also make it to where a Palace is required before you could build certain wonders? (I know that not all wonders are located in the capitals but alot of them are) If Kal-El's resource idea was used then the AI might end up building Shakespeare's in Edinburg or Magellen's in Madrid where they are not historically suppossed to be. However, even if this wasn't possible the trade-off of having the wonders built at around their correct historical times would outweigh any consequences.

By the way, excellent idea Kal-el :goodjob:

The Wonder will only be able to be built in the desired city. The City will rest on top of the City Resource. Therefore it would be the only city that has the resource within its borders.

Kal-el, that's a great idea! And what's even better is that it easily opens the doors for more wonders to be built by certain races without worrying that China and India will build them all! You could add stonehenge, and if someone conquers the Celt's lands early on, they could still build Stonehenge and get the culture for it (although I know there are no Celts in Britain in this version). But the same concept works for any Civ... if Greece conquers Egypt (like they did in actual history), the Great Lighthouse and Great Library could still be built. You could even find a new graphic for small wonders like the Forbidden Palace so that only Asian countries can build an asian looking palace, and European countries get a castle-type of Forbidden Palace.

Sorry D.Minky and TET for posting here but...

WTH does YCHJCYADFMRF mean? :confused:

Sorry again for posting here, but I knew D.Minky would read this here ;)

Melifluous

EDIT: edited for spelling, I cant spell whilst drinked, a common problem I'm sure ;)

Your Curiosity Has Just Cost You A Dollar For Matt's Retirement Fund.

Now Pay up! ;-)

what about using governement types? they could be the key to avoiding situations like sporks. i know they cant be civ specific (at least not obviously in the editor) but there must be some way to use them to help in the fall of empires. its pretty well established that tet's mod will fairly accurately predict the rise of certain civs to power, the problem lies in making sure that they dont get too strong (especially when they are the human civ) and that history's course stays well on track.

so i bring up governments because it strikes me as a possible way to help the fall of certain civs at the right time. if it were possible to tease a civ into a certain gov type at its peak and then have that type allow for more culture flipping or kill city production via corruption, then situations like in spork's (awesome) game analysis will be less likely to come about.

what would be cooler is if we could specify civ specific gov types... for instance, "weimar republic" for the fall of germany, or a better example in a special "roman republic" or "french monarchy" or "arabic oligarchy" .. whatever, you could have some real fun with it.

either way, i just wanted to say my piece and see if anyone (who undoublably knows the editor and mod making better than me) could try out some experiements with gov types. i mean, if this mod is about reality, then im sure adding more gov types would make it more realistic

thanks for reading and keep up the good work:goodjob:
-reedtwostep

I ran Greek in 1.7, and found it easy for Greece. I deliberately did not conquer when I could, trying to get into modern times.
Two things set me up. One, with initial MapMaking I found I could sell my map every few turns to all civs, pretty much for all their available cash. (I will try again in 1.93, and see how it flies.) As a resuilt, by the time I got to the industrial age I had 40,000 gold in my treasury. Enough to buy a battle ship on turn 2 of the build.
The other thing was the Templar KNights. In their time, they were unstoppable -- provided one had enough money to build fast, and a large enough power base to build many of them. In history, had the Templars had consistent good leadership, and had they not made the Powers That Be suspicious and jealous of them, they would also have been unstoppable.
I have a different issue now running Rome on 1.93. I had contacts with 27 civs by turn 15 or so, and generally swapped techs all around. I was unable to get three of the starting techs until I had enough to pay for them... about 400 gold, either direct pay or direct + GPT. Since it took 50 turns to research the first tech, nothing else was available until then. Yet over the years every other civ got all techs, although their cash stayed generally under 100G, often 0. Spain and Persia got Writing and Iron Working also on turn 50 (one each, and they swapped out) Other civs came in a turn or two later, and a new round of swapping happened. Since I did not have mapmamking, and could only swap maps with those that did, I did not have the tremendous cash inflow, and did not impoverish the others.
Maybe the communication swapping is not keyed to anything, but is just built in. ? I could not swap, but they all got my ID from someone long before I found more than a handful.

One thing I've noticed is that the civs with mapmaking have a huge advantage. I think that you should make a new tech, Oceanfaring, to get galleys. Then you make that civs that start with mapmaking start with Oceanfaring instead, and they don't get to trade maps. To me (playing random maps) it takes the fun out of exploring, because when you come to a civ with mapmaking, you just trade maps and voila, no more exploring. Also the civs that start with mapmaking have a massive advantage because they sell their maps for cash/tech. Anyway, if you do not want to, at least consider it for ranom map versions.

Something in reedtwostep's last post gave me a funny idea - funny in the sense that it made me laugh.

I don't expect the editor would have enough resources in it to bring this about, but wouldn't it be a blast if there were a mirror image to the Golden Age, namely the Dark Age? You'd get a little message that says: "Rome has just entered its dark age." I'm not sure what would happen, but at minimum shield and gold production would fall off dramatically. Maybe there would also be -2 contentment in the cities, and maybe even a dramatically increased chance of culture flips.

A dark age in the post-Legionary era where gold production shrinks dramatically and suddenly all legionaries start charging maintenance fees would put a quick halt to Rome's imperial expansion. Maybe dark ages could be keyed to the golden ages of rival states - so that England's golden age sets off Spain's dark age, and Rome's golden age sets off the Celts' dark age. Well, I'm almost certain this is too heavy a modification to the game, and our limited editors can't make it happen. But if we could, it would be great.

Edit: Oh how would you like this message popup: "The black plague has struck our country!" That might actually be doable, since we already have a mechanism for jungle disease...

I am still early in my game, but I have come across something that I think is a little unrealistic.

I'm playing as the Vikings and by turn 5 many of my cities are already able to rush a barrack. The rest that don't have a fish in their radius follow suit as soon as they hit population 2. It seems ridiculous to me that the same barracks I rush on turn 5 can be used to build Veteran tanks in the modern era. As I said, I am still early so maybe you have something to get around this later in the game.

If you do not, I would suggest doubling the build cost of barracks. Just a thought.

Thanks for all of your hard work Tet!

maybe you could think of the some 1000 of years of maintenance as good enough payment to keep your barracks militariy updated...
(im bias, i like early barracks and veteran spearmen :))

I thank all of you for emailing me offering to help - I will contact you all tomorrow. The plan is basically to get all the recommendations, ideas, more units, bugs etc written down then posted here. Give people a few weeks to discuss them and from there decide which ones will be implemented into version 2.0 and implement them.

Kind of like a hit-list.

It will be a huge undertaking but I think one that will be worth while.

TET

I believe I have found a method to totally destroy the AI's tech lead... every time. It works *too* well, and makes things a lot easier. Maybe other people have been using it for ages and I am just a little slow... but it still seems too easy. This is World map with cities mode.


Two prerequisites: Writing and a heap of gold.
Make embassy.
Steal tech.
In the ancient age, which is as far as I've gotten in 1.9x (1.93 currently), it only costs about 600 gold to steal 'safely.' I believe I stole Map Making first, and then used it to achieve tech parity.

Later, I bought Polytheism off Arabia before anyone else but them had it. I promptly sold it to Egypt for 2400 gold, effectively bankrupting them and bringing me past 8,000 gold.

I've stolen a few others, mostly from Egypt, and then I distribute it to everyone who can pay more than 400 gold or 20gpt.

Turnly income: 100-130gold per turn.
I am researching Currency, and, as the mighty Tamerlane, ruler of Turkistan, am third in the world in terms of score, after India and China.

I like the Nomads that Mongolia is using extensively... they give the Khanate*more* than a fighting chance.

A nice world-war-I type conflict is brewing in Asia, and I'm in dire straits, but that is entirely my own fault and I'm *still* a leader in tech. :)

hehe, turn up espionage costs quick!

I like espionage costs semi-cheap, they get a bit ridiculous as they are in regular Civ. The problem here is that tech is so expensive in this game that all you need is one scientist and 0% tech to get it at the same speed as you would with 100% tech. I think it was said earlier that the AI doesn't adjust their tex/science level, so they don't get the same huge amount of money as a human player, putting them at a huge disadvantage at stealing tech on their own.

If espionage gets more expensive, I hope it doesn't get *too* expensive. I'd rather see techs come faster, even if it means halving their cost but doubling the ammount of techs that have to be researched... this at least would make the science/tax meter more useful and would prevent the human player from getting too powerful by abusing something the AI can't comprehend.

I tried the espionage thing, but it seems that after stealing a tech from someone they catch me on a subsequent attempt. so after you've stolen a tech from everyone ahead of you, you can't steal anymore from them, I wonder if it has something to do with the difficulty level or something.

Actually that has something to do with the way Civ3 works -- it's the same reason you can't reload and re-attempt a battle. For lack of better words, all the "dice-rolls" in Civ3 are predetermined (I'm an RPGer, sorry). So any calculations are always pre-made and happen the same way no matter what. It's a little disappointing, but at the same time prevents the save-and-reload cheat. ;-)

Originally posted by Lt. 'Killer' M.
as he said: soon!

It isn't easy to place resources, because gameplay and realism are at odds. If you want to place huge deposits only, which will give you a good number of each resource for gameplay, you will end up with many historical starting positions that are practically resource-free, if you add resources to these areas, then you end up with say over 30 coal worldswide for 16 players - not good!

Also, Rubber is a ridiculous resource and should better be replaced by copper, also, Horses are restricted to central Asia in BC times, want to do that historically correct????????? Difficult things to balance in a mod, so give him some time!


I agree, there should be a strategic Copper resource, but heartily disagree with you on rubber. Rubber was absolutely essential in WW2 particularly and remains so today in our modern economies. You simply cannot have motorized vehicles without it, and in the real world, there are very few places that have rubber. The Germans did manage to synthesise rubber from their oil reserves, but as you can imagine, this was a massive drain on their fuel. No rubber = no landing gear, tires, gasmasks, tank tracks, etc etc.

D.Minky, i thought that by disabling the option PRESERVE RANDOM SEED before starting a game the battles and anything else(e.g. espionage) now have a random outgoing, so its possible to to use the save and reload cheat, onyl for those who need it :D.

The TETurkhan Team to those of you that haven’t written me yet – keep in mind this is not a full time commitment. I am merely looking for a group of people that I can call on at anytime for support. If you are busy when I ask for help – no problem, I can just move on down the list until I find someone that can assist. So far the following people have written me offering their help and are now officially part of this team:

• Moulton
• Bobisback
• spork
• BobTheTerrible

I hope more of you will come forward though – just email me at teturkhan@hotmail.com, subject line: TETurkhan Team. Make sure to include your full name, alias used in forums, time availability & area of expertise (basically what areas you can assist me in)…

That’s it!



So to start things off – I need the following done:

• I need someone or some people to go through this entire thread and summarize all the points that have been brought up. These will be posted once complete and everyone will have an oppotunity to discuss them. Once consensus is reached I will move it to my “to-do” list. Here is a few points I picked out from the thread that should give you an idea what I am looking for:

o Another suggestion, is there any way to make a synthetic resource? Meaning you research saltpeter, but if you don't have any then 2-3 techs later you research a tech, maybe not a required one, that acts as a saltpeter resource. - Kormer
o Isn't plastic made from petroleum? I am not sure, just wondering, if so, than it is covered with Oil, and then when you discover plastics, it makes the ability to make the plastics. Here is a possibility... Make rubber a required resource for infantry, tanks, and whatever else it is currently used for in the game, and make a new advance further in the tree called synthetics, Unless is there one??? Then you can make new units that have the same stats as the other units that require the rubber resource, but make them so that they do not require rubber. - pap1723
o I have a suggestion for the Greeks. Instead of giving them knights give them Cataphracts (sp?) for example since in medieval times they didn't have knights in the same way Eastern Europe had them. - Kanaric
o Historically, Nav. or at least astronomy should be req'd - oliver088
o When I think of the bomber in the game I think of a WWII B-17 which should probably have a much lower operational range than 35. 15-20 would be more reasonable. I shouldn't be able to bomb Bejing from Moscow with WWII units running around. I was thinking putting in a third bomber between bomber and the stealth with a range of like 50, the B-52 maybe - Kormer
o Just to add a little input, I noticed Kormer brought up an issue about Bombers. Smoking Mirror made a great "Tri-Motor" bomber that I use an my first bomber level, then the regular Bomber, which looks quite formidable, is a step up from that one thestonesfan
o I'm playing as Persians and I am in alliance with the Israelis in the late ancient. As soon the Turkish and Arabs felt in war with us, I could discover Chivalry. So I hoped the new Persian Cataphracts (Persian Chivalry in third Persian Dynasty) could help us from the invasion. Instead of a Knight, I could only build an Arabian horseman. – Houman



To-Do List Based on these posts (there are many more that will be posted later

• addition of Cataphracts for Persians & Greeks
• addition of synthetic rubber & plastics (through techs) nulifying requirement of rubber
• exchange of maps moved to astronomy
• addition of an early bomber
• New UU for Abyssinians & Songhai

Why add in synthetic rubber and plastic? They are man made and can be made from common materials. Once you get to the point in the game where you would be using synthetics just remove the resource requirement to show that you can make your own resources now.

Originally posted by TETurkhan
• Josh (what was your alias?)

BobTheTerrible. Sorry, I thought I mentioned it.

BTW, I see you are making map exchanges come later? This is something I've been wanting. You should now probably rename Map Making to Seafaring.

Summary of Thread broken into 5 parts one person responsible for each - that way the work load is not as much.

Pages 1-10: BobTheTerrible
Pages 11-20: Moulton
Pages 21-30:
Pages 31-40:
Pages 41-50:

Hey tet I was looking through the early part of this thread and found links to some units you might want:

quote:
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The eagle warrior
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showt...&threadid=28442
The alternate Jaguar Warrior
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showt...&threadid=29057
And a plumed Archer
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showt...&threadid=28337
Camel
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showt...&threadid=20866
Mameluke
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showt...&threadid=23146
Cataphract
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showt...&threadid=23224
Horse Archer
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showt...ht=horse+archer
Arab Horseman
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showt...ht=horse+archer
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Originally posted by TETurkhan
Summary of Thread broken into 5 parts one person responsible for each - that way the work load is not as much.

Pages 1-10:
Pages 11-20:
Pages 21-30:
Pages 31-40:
Pages 41-50:


TETurkhan could someone else do my work load, (if someone is willing to) I am busy working on the unit list you asked for.

bobisback - sure thing no probs...
How is it coming along BTW?

So far no volunteers :confused:
yeah I know its boring going through all the previous posts but you know there have been many good points brought up and I think we should inject them into the mix and create some discussion.

I can pick up two... the first two? I was dreading scrolling through 300+ printed pages -- took me a week to read it the first time.