.... they're boring.

They need work.
They need flavour.
A Builder need more than a free specialist, a gpp 'n' 7 wonders.

They could be the "freemasons of FF" and i have a few ideas to that end.
UU workers to speed up their economy.
A guild worldspell that sets up a "silver circle" look-a-like with 0/1/1 per workshop in the fat cross and a fixed bonus to tradelines. Perhaps specialization events could spawn giving "truffle squares"
Early access to workshops!?
Perhaps organized while karlson is alive to give them his knowhow trough command posts.
Increased cost for wonders but marble would double speed. (specialists needs their prefered materials)
UU axeman "pikeman" with +% VS mounted that could not be upgraded but had mithril potential. (At wartime a portion of their large workforce is given a spear and sent off to a new "college")
UU champion ..... A unit in the finest equipment the nerdy dural smiths could forge.

Sorry about the mess but that civ has potential.

While I don't fully agree with all your change ideas I will say you are right about them being dull. They are boring, boring as hell and NEED to be reworked.

It would be interesting if their military units had special abilities that emphasized the builder aspect of their culture and they waged war in a more economic than physical way. That would be very flavorful and give them options for war that mesh well with their "builder" style.

For example, Dural Melee fighters can have an ability to build forts.
And, perhaps, to make a special improvement for them, which they can build beneath the enemy cities, blocking or reducing the production on that plots.

yea crusaders in civ 3 could build forts. but really i dont think ive ever had an AI attack me in a fort ever though so that could be a useless benefit i suppose.

It's because ai is a pansy who does not understand it should suicide against fort stacks. It is impossible to defend in anything but chokepoints because the ai just goes past you.

Also, I absolutely HATE their city names. IO played them once and was put off for life by their names alone. They do NOT suit the dark fantasy theme.

I never even tried Dural. They are only good for Decius to conquer. Nice free promotions for my elite (national) units, throw in tower of eyes for extreme fun.

yea crusaders in civ 3 could build forts. but really i dont think ive ever had an AI attack me in a fort ever though so that could be a useless benefit i suppose.

Well.. you can build it near the enemy city, you're besieging, so our attacking party won't be harassed by defenders' attacks.

I think they should be wonder builders aiming for a cultural victory.
they should be the best wonder-builders in town, period ;)
and get some kind of bonus for culture. after all, they're supposed to be "Artists and students" aren't they? :D

Their leader starts creative I think.

creative and industrious, I know. but that is not enough, they need some cool unique mechanics, not just traits that are shared by many ;)

How about giving Dural UU workers that can be sacrificed to increase production 25% of their build-cost?

- Make them better wonder-builders.
- Add some unique flair.

Give their professors an 'increased success with lairs and various dungeon types'. Scholars gotta be better at reading the inscriptions on the tombs and back away slowly from 'Evil undead king of somethingcool lies here, beware, beware, beware..'.

nice idea. very fitting for a builder-style civ. :goodjob:

Or just a reduced chance of instadeath. It is annoying when level 20 units just fail to return (okay it was a lowly earlygame warrior).

Or just a reduced chance of instadeath. It is annoying when level 20 units just fail to return (okay it was a lowly earlygame warrior).

wrong thread? :D

It was following on from:

Give their professors an 'increased success with lairs and various dungeon types'. Scholars gotta be better at reading the inscriptions on the tombs and back away slowly from 'Evil undead king of somethingcool lies here, beware, beware, beware..'.

Surely? :splat:

ouch. I should have read ALL Arctic Circle's thread instead than just the first 2 lines :lol:

they would be awsome if they could quickly build forts if mailbox, Magister or someone who has time could put in jeckel's fort mod

they would be awsome if they could quickly build forts if mailbox, Magister or someone who has time could put in jeckel's fort mod

If their warriors are capable of building forts, they could also be capable of building roads, like Roman Legionaries in the Civ III Rise of Rome Scenario - but that might be a little exploitative.

A simple solution might be to give all their workers some free promotions or XP to begin with.

From what I've heard, you must let a unit build a road (or some sort of route) too if it can build any improvements, or else the AI won't understand it and will cause a lot of CtDs.

I absolutly vote for Dural warriors.. swordsmen+ to be able to build roads. It also makes sence and gives that little extra.

Gekko;7356250']wrong thread? :D

Yep. Should not do forums at night.

One idea I had was to modify how Fortification works.

Current implementation:

If a unit is allowed Defensive Bonuses, then a check is done at the start of the turn to see if it moved last turn. If it did not move, then the fortification level of the unit is increased 1 rank, to a max of 5. If you have the Defensive Promotion, it is increased 2 levels each turn, still to a max of 5.

If you ever move, the instant that you do so your fortification bonus is removed.


Idea for a new approach:

Fortification Level is still bumped up 1 rank if a unit did not move the last turn, and this happens to a max of 5. But if the unit's fortification level is OVER 5, then it is reduced by (Fortification Level / 5) points (so a unit between 6 and 9 loses 1 Level, between 10 and 14 the unit loses 2 levels...). This means that for a standard unit, they can get normal results from fortification. For a unit with Defensive, they will fortify to 10/20/30/40/50/55/60/65/75/85/95/100 (stepping up 2 levels per turn till 50, then 1 level per turn beyond that)

Now... to make use of this change, you need to have a method of increasing your fortification bonus beyond the normal level. To do that, you modify Treetop Defense to increase the fortification level of all units by 5 (instead of just capping it instantly, since now there is no cap) and it applies a promotion which grants 5 levels of fortification per turn (to prevent the need of casting the spell each turn to reach phenomenal fortification caps).

Naturally, Earth Elementals would gain a spell which they can only cast if they have not moved or attacked for the turn which grants them a massive fortification bonus, as well as pumping up their chances to defend the stack.

And finally, the reason that I am posting the idea here, is that the Dural would gain natural access to either a spell or promotion which enhances their fortification capabilities. My thoughts initially were a in-City only promotion which grants a large fortification bonus, but it would also be nice to give them a 1-shot spell which can be used in enemy territory when forced to go on the offensive (spell requires you haven't attacked for the turn and have a fortification bonus lower than 80% and it sets your fortification bonus to 100 instantly... something like that)

What have the dural got to do with fortification? They are artists and students, not masons. You should give the spell/promotion to the Bannor. They are the ones who were originally meant to be into fortification.

It would be nice to hear Vehem's opinion of the Dural.

well, they are masons as well. they have quite a lot of unique statues and they love wonders so one gets the feeling that they like building stuff :D nice idea xienwolf!

Well, it was meant in this light as a "cool mechanic" mostly, to set a distinct flavor for them militarily, since most of the toys now are builder oriented. The connection was loosely based on them emphasizing personal capability (more attentive of your surroundings, so can spot the enemy coming and utilize the terrain better).

Just a thought, but with all the talk of giving forts a boost... Perhaps the trick should be done via a spell that could be cast in cities with colleges, it would take 3 turns to learn how to construct a fort.

Meh, wonder builders worries me. I'm not the best player, I know... But on Monarch already if I want a wonder, I have to take it by force because the CPU is already far to skilled at cranking out every wonder in the game. Not sure I'd like the consequence of a "wonder whoring" civilization....

Is it a surprise I play noble? I want those wonders. Sure if some AI expands quickly it will get some but I have a chance too.

Quite frankly, this civ looked so borin that I looked at the pedia entries, mainly the 1 for Karlsson, and went, "Meh". They need somethin more unique than bein students. I mean students don't fit well into a dark fantasy mod. (Usually, in all the fantasy books I've read and games I've played, students get massacared or end up fleein the scene. ::Students exit stage left in extreme panic.::) After all, they're not magic students like the Amurites and they need a LOT MORE. I like the forts idea, but it needs more than that. It jus doesn't have a lot of draw.

I'm with Rocklikeafool,

I don't get the point of this civ and frankly I think they are an anomaly in this modmod. It sounds to me like they are supposed to be agnostic-scholars, they are humanistic and do not believe in the worth of the gods instead focusing on the great works that can be accomplished...

whatever.

I agree a wonder bonus could be a little too much. Industrious civs in vanilla work because there are more than one, all the wonders being clustered in one civ if the Dural are in the game would be pretty lame.

I originally thought their key feature were powerful and interesting unique buildings, but the statues currently in the game are just horrible. I think a builder focused civilization could be interesting, but they definitely need to be reworked. I could see trying different buildings with unique bonuses. Maybe bonuses to tech progression with penalties to troop building or upkeep, to emphasize a civ with an army that relies on it's technological advancements rather than brute force.

Bumping an old thread, oh well.

Was just thinking the Great Works worldspell might be very strategically different were a "Supplies" unit as is seen in the latest base FFH2, created in say, every city, or every city with a certain population or something. I.e., here's a dozen "instant building kits", best of luck with them!

They could also be given the capacity to build the Supplies unit which would fit in with their builder nature. This essentially allows your cities up and running quickly by having your central productions cities ship the necessary components to your outlying cities which are low on populations and hence production.

Personally I'd still like to see their military be able to perform worker actions, as this would a) give them a boost, b) fit in with their background and c) gives them a unique flavour when thye are played.

Metal Line - Build Forts
Recon Line - Build Camps
Horse Line - Build Pastures
Magic Line - Build Plantations (Regeants)
Students of FoL - Build Farms
Students of RoK - Build Mines
Students of OO - Build Nets (?)

I do in general like the idea of some or all civs being able to build "Supplies" units, possibly unlocked at some tech like Construction, Trade, don't know if something higher would be appropriate. Maybe tied to a trait, like Industrious. Maybe further tied to a "Supplies" enabling building, whether you had to build it, or whether it could only be created by the sacrifice of a Great Engineer or Great Merchant (these seem high, but Supplies are an incredibly useful multipurpose unit, basically transferred production with a slight "time" cost as far as movement from point A to point B).

The Dural would be included, though, among those who might have a unique bent towards Supplies.

I'd like it if they had many new UBs since they only have one right now. If these would be made slightly more expensive but much more effective then their counterparts, then it would really promote specialization.

It would be good to tie the building of the Supplies unit to the Industious trait actually. I don't play FF but in vanilla FFH I consider that trait very weak, and in civs with two leaders, the one with the Industrious trait is almost always weaker. Os-Gabella I'm looking at you.

Oh Heck, just add the tolerant trait, and let them build everything, and if you really want to mess around, after the Dural build special building x in conquerd city y, give a pop up saying that these plans for building x can be brought to the capital (you can build x in all cities)
for z many coins, (100, 200, 500 depending on the coolness of the building) Ditto other civs units, and if you really want to go for broke give them access to the "non religios priests"
It would take a while to get there, but it could be a awesome late game.

While we are on the subject of dual, there world spell needs to be scaled for game speed.

I played a game on quick and used the world spell to put a collage in each city. Got the Dual on a marathon high to low game, 100 hammers was a joke.

100 hammers is a joke anyway.

Dural, Archos and Chislev are all looking at an overhaul during the 044-period (not the release version). I originally created them almost a year ago with a much more restricted toolset than we have now - many more possibilities for the redux now...

Well could you adress the issue why Archos champion uu can't access mithril? It makes no sense to me. Ok, it will make sense if you decide to cut mithril from regular axemen/swordsmen. +1 poison combat for a melee tank is not very impressive as they are not supposed to weaken their targets (poisoned is nasty I give you that) but destroy them.

So, I have been thinking about "the multi religous Civ"
What should a civ give up to have access to all of fall further Priest, and high priest (subistutes)and combat units and temples.
1 State religion, it civis and heroes.
2 Give the religous the pacifist trait ?
3 Take away mages and archmages?
4 take away melee units(like shehain or luchuirp)
5 a turn or to or disorder when a new temple is build?

I don't think there is a civ that could do this and it might give the Chislev some real spice........ Or Not?

That would be interesting, allow a civilization to ignore Religious requirements completely (dodging Abandon effects is already possible, dodging the build requirement wouldn't be hard to code at all), but be incapable of building any world units and probably arcane units as well. Then you can field 28 High Priests (as 4 Druids+Eidolons+Paladins?) for an impressive magical presence, but can't pick for yourself and miss out on all heroes (can't even Dominate any, but might get lucky and gain some through Command)

28? Does that include the 4(or is it 3) lizard type priest, and the scions death priest?
I was thinking, um like 40...
Runes, Leaves, octo, order, empem, Hand, Scions gift unit, and 3 Lizard units, oh and monks too, why not?

Maybe a wonder (partheon?) that lets you build any religious unit?

Hey what would the civ's hero be? How about a Entry Level unit like the old Pagan prophet, but with mage 1 as well as divine, and you can promote him up two levels,
That way you could get one or two archmage spells, but that is it. No running around with twincasting liches hemah and gibbon, with 2 back up liches and 4 archmages.

I thick adepts should be allowed, But that is a heck of alot of priest to chose from, eh?

I got it, or part of it (the handicap) always nuetral, and if that is to powerful, always evil (no altar of lunatar)

Still this civ would need just the right handicap so it doesn't become some mid game monster.

I have a few suggestions for good Dural-flavored effects.
1 - Better workers. As a race of builders, they should really have a UU worker that is faster and either cheaper or not requiring food to build.
2 - Enhanced passive xp gain. As scholars, they should be able to benefit more than other races from non-combat training.
3 - A unique civic. Something in cultural values that gives them a decent boost to culture and production, and maybe a free specialist, but HUGE war weariness penalties. That would represent their ability to thrive during peacetime as builders and artisans.

I have a few suggestions for good Dural-flavored effects.
1 - Better workers. As a race of builders, they should really have a UU worker that is faster and either cheaper or not requiring food to build.
2 - Enhanced passive xp gain. As scholars, they should be able to benefit more than other races from non-combat training.
3 - A unique civic. Something in cultural values that gives them a decent boost to culture and production, and maybe a free specialist, but HUGE war weariness penalties. That would represent their ability to thrive during peacetime as builders and artisans.

I like 1 and especially like 2... Passive training fits a scholar theme. However, I think there are enough unique civics in the game already.... Both lizards, the Chislev, the Bannor, the Scions, and soon, the Jotnar as well. Unless we're going to have one for each civ, we need to draw a line somewhere.

Edit: Although, the civic itself doesn't sound bad at all. If it were available to everyone I'd be okay with it.

yep, 1 & 2 sound great for a builder civ :goodjob:

1 - Better workers. As a race of builders, they should really have a UU worker that is faster and either cheaper or not requiring food to build.
2 - Enhanced passive xp gain. As scholars, they should be able to benefit more than other races from non-combat training.
3 - A unique civic. Something in cultural values that gives them a decent boost to culture and production, and maybe a free specialist, but HUGE war weariness penalties. That would represent their ability to thrive during peacetime as builders and artisans.

2 and 3 are both thematically correct - in fact Karrlson is pretty much taking on the role of 2 when I rework him (he's seen the worst of the war against the Clan first hand and now teaches the Dural armies what to expect). 1 implies the "labour" side of building more than the "artistic" which is where they actually excel. They do have highly skilled workers, but as so much time is spent on decorating the farm (stone arches leading to the cattle yard, immaculately tiled roofs), it isn't necessarily constructed any quicker...

Reading this thread got me thinking about the Dural as Romans. First of, the Romans were a lot of things, builders, conquerors, and empire builders. However on of the things the Romans were most known for is that they exported "Pax Romanica" in that where ever they went, they spread the idea of a government by the people (such as it was for the time), a military of the people (for awhile when Noblis Oblige was in vogue) and that if you became a citizen, you were now just as Roman as some peasant down in Italy.

So how does the Romans suit the Dural? Well one thing I like about the Jotnar mod is that there are three leaders, one for each alignment. So perhaps the Dural could have the same and each leader reflects a different aspect of a Civ that is similar to the Romans.

First off, a potential 'evil' leader I could see in the sense of being 'lawful evil' where the Dural leader feels it is his/her destiny to bring Erebus back under control. I mean George Lucas really screwed the pooch by focusing on Anikan's fall due to his love of Padme when it was obvious that he REALLy wanted to impose Order on a Chaotic universe. Hell in comics, Doctor Doom's Latveria is a nice place, with high tech industries, low crime and the like. As he puts it, "The only liberty I take away is the ability to commit evil." So on the face of it, it is a 'benevolent' dictatorship. So here, the Dural evil leader might have access to the units mentioned that can build roads so help make "all roads lead to Dural"

The good leader might be more for the "Glory of Rome" side of the Romans where they see themselves of the repository of all things cultural. This leader would have less desire to expand and would probably need to have units and/or buildings to work more toward a cultural win. Personally, culture bombing is a favorite tactic of mine.

The neutral leader might be more for the type of people who build great works because they can in that it is the journey, not the ending, that is the point of life. So under this leader, the Dural would build great works. I know in Rise of Mankind mod (I think) there is a national wonder of "Roman Roads" and the like. Perhaps they'd have access to many national wonders that allow them to build quicker and faster. Plus I think they'd (and perhaps the good Dural) would have a way to hire mercenaries.

Just some thoughts will I avoid doing house work prior to my in-laws showing up. :lol:

Urrrghh Please change the Dural city names. They're completely ridiculous imo.

Reading this thread got me thinking about the Dural as Romans. First of, the Romans were a lot of things, builders, conquerors, and empire builders. However on of the things the Romans were most known for is that they exported "Pax Romanica" in that where ever they went, they spread the idea of a government by the people (such as it was for the time), a military of the people (for awhile when Noblis Oblige was in vogue) and that if you became a citizen, you were now just as Roman as some peasant down in Italy.

So how does the Romans suit the Dural? Well one thing I like about the Jotnar mod is that there are three leaders, one for each alignment. So perhaps the Dural could have the same and each leader reflects a different aspect of a Civ that is similar to the Romans.

First off, a potential 'evil' leader I could see in the sense of being 'lawful evil' where the Dural leader feels it is his/her destiny to bring Erebus back under control. I mean George Lucas really screwed the pooch by focusing on Anikan's fall due to his love of Padme when it was obvious that he REALLy wanted to impose Order on a Chaotic universe. Hell in comics, Doctor Doom's Latveria is a nice place, with high tech industries, low crime and the like. As he puts it, "The only liberty I take away is the ability to commit evil." So on the face of it, it is a 'benevolent' dictatorship. So here, the Dural evil leader might have access to the units mentioned that can build roads so help make "all roads lead to Dural"

The good leader might be more for the "Glory of Rome" side of the Romans where they see themselves of the repository of all things cultural. This leader would have less desire to expand and would probably need to have units and/or buildings to work more toward a cultural win. Personally, culture bombing is a favorite tactic of mine.

The neutral leader might be more for the type of people who build great works because they can in that it is the journey, not the ending, that is the point of life. So under this leader, the Dural would build great works. I know in Rise of Mankind mod (I think) there is a national wonder of "Roman Roads" and the like. Perhaps they'd have access to many national wonders that allow them to build quicker and faster. Plus I think they'd (and perhaps the good Dural) would have a way to hire mercenaries.

Just some thoughts will I avoid doing house work prior to my in-laws showing up. :lol:

The Roman analogy is probably fair up to a point. Though they're not as Imperialistic, they do have the same pride that the Romans had in their empire and Brookden is most likely very similar in appearance to Rome in places. I can't see them with an "evil" leader, though a more neutral military leader is feasible. Dannmos is the consummate leader and politician, but he does have a number of others who provide counsel on matters he is not an expert in.

The roads are a solid option - easy enough to implement and they would probably have taken the time to develop the technology/have the skilled workforce to construct them.

Urrrghh Please change the Dural city names. They're completely ridiculous imo.

Product of a "Fantasy Town Name Generator" - some need to stay as they're referenced elsewhere in lore, but if you want to provide some alternates I can replace the others (I tend to agree that they're a little too cheerful, even given the artistic naivety of the civ at the start of the Age of Rebirth).

If there is a city-name list available I'll try my hand at replacing a few when I have time.

I can't see them with an "evil" leader, though a more neutral military leader is feasible. Dannmos is the consummate leader and politician, but he does have a number of others who provide counsel on matters he is not an expert in.

Well in a sense isn't that what Decius is? To me an 'evil' Bannor under Decius is a fanatic that does evil while doing good. He's the type who wants to spread Order, but does it at the cost of liberties and repression which will later turn thing poorly. I mean hey, as I mentioned about Vader and Dr. Doom, Stalin made the trains run on time and everyone had free health-care but you had to endure the KGB spying on you and the lack of many liberties most Western world countries expect. Plus I could see Decius getting more and more repressive over time because people would resist the repression and Decius would take this badly "after all he had done for his people".

So my point about an 'evil' leader for the Dural was more of a kind of Teddy Roosevelt; a great leader who was also cock-sure of his country (and ethnic race to boots) superiority and was willing to use force to spread it. I mean I don't think it is a stretch of the imagination to see a great pride in your country to thinking, "Well EVERYONE needs to do it our way...since it is the best after all."

That being said, I guess you could easily just make Decius a potential leader of the Dural as well. Again I see him as 'lawful evil' in that he imposes order instead of cultivating it. Not to get to deep into this, but in line with some of my comments above about Decius, it would be nice if there was a cult or another religion that was 'evil' but less destructive as the OO or AV. Not to ding anyone's religion, but if you look at a stereotypical depiction of the Catholic Church during the Inquisitorial years it is a good example of an organization that takes care of it's worshipers, spreads 'good' works but also treats anyone not of their faith as just heathens and dissenters as heretics as well as being very Eurocentric. (Again I'm not knocking Catholics here just making an analogy).

None of the current religions seem to have that. I mean the Order religion is all about bringing good to the world and Empryean seems to be the "Gryfinndor" religion in being bold and brave. There doesn't seem to be one that either evil Civs can use but doesn't require you to trash your own people. As I said, for the most part during the Catholic/Protestant wars, your own church would take care of you but would do all in it's power to kill, convert, coerce those of the other faith.

All of this is getting off topic. Sorry. :( I must say though that I do wish that every race could build 1 or 2 National Wonders of some form of Cathedral to their religion. I mean temples are nice but I can't see the different people of Erebus just being content with those and maybe if their lucky their Holy City Wonder.

I mean I don't think it is a stretch of the imagination to see a great pride in your country to thinking, "Well EVERYONE needs to do it our way...since it is the best after all."

That sounds a lot like a (weak) version of Basium to me, or any version of Bannor - which is still Good, in this mod.

If there is a city-name list available I'll try my hand at replacing a few when I have time.

City list:

<City>Brookden</City>
<City>Crystalhollow</City>
<City>Newshore</City>
<City>Bluebourne Downs</City>
<City>Southhollow</City>
<City>Eastbutter</City>
<City>Westerbeach Barrens</City>
<City>Rosemarsh</City>
<City>Marblekeep Crossing</City>
<City>Vertpond</City>
<City>Norbourne</City>
<City>Mordale</City>
<City>Normere</City>
<City>Northwitch</City>
<City>Springland</City>
<City>Strongfall</City>
<City>Violetbarrow</City>
<City>Snowmaple Beach</City>
<City>Ironrose</City>
<City>Brookbourne</City>
<City>Stonemount</City>
<City>Janley</City>
<City>Janshore</City>
<City>Wintermarsh Crossing</City>
<City>Valkeep</City>
<City>Fallbarrow Moor</City>
<City>Wellviolet</City>
<City>Coldcliff</City>
<City>Coldhaven</City>
<City>Goldville</City>
<City>Lakemoor</City>
<City>Oakmeadow</City>
<City>Fairbarrow</City>
<City>Highham Island</City>
<City>Deephedge</City>
<City>Fieldedge</City>
<City>Greenmead Crags</City>
<City>Redgate</City>
<City>Redmead Downs</City>
<City>Redwyvern</City>
<City>Oldmoor</City>
<City>Aldness Point</City>
<City>Oldshore</City>
<City>Blackdell</City>
<City>Blackden</City>
<City>Starrybeach</City>

EDIT:
i agree with most everything that has been said in here. one thing that could separate the dural from the other civs is having 'building upgrades' for some buildings. ie if you have building x, you may build building y which has the benefits of x, with some additional benefits, however x now becomes obsolete, for instance:

Elder Council -> Council Court (additional maintenance reduction)
Library -> Study Halls (additional Research)
Market -> Crafters Guild (Additional X%gold from luxury resources, maybe even +1 happy from some resources such as marble etc)
Barracks/archery range/stable -> Training Facility (Increased passive EXP gain for all units.)
Carnival -> Fair Grounds (bonus culture and/or happyness from luxuries)
etc

in addition to these, Dural could be able to build MULTIPLE monuments. by this i mean if they build a monument in a city (giving +2 Culture) they can build another monument (giving another +2 culture). perhaps make each additional monument slightly more expenisive than the previous one. possible even make Dural monuments give +1 happy from marble?

another idea is allowing Dural Forts to spread culture and be buildable outside of their borders.

and another idea is to allow Dural to build 'Trader' units which could act like miniature great merchants, trading their superior goods with other civs. it might be simpler to allow them to get extra trade routes from certain buildings.

Multiple Monuments sounds like Totem Poles :) Stack another one on there!

Multiple Monuments sounds like Totem Poles Stack another one on there!

a new chislev mechanic? :p

Order is not about good. It is about obedience. Good and evil are gameplay mechanics in FfH, it has nothing to do with morals.

When you live in an av civ and sell your soul for whatever you get in return (power, money, women), it is your business. In an order civ you are burned as a witch. You know, there's this cool civic called liberty in the game. Should pretty much be unavailable to control freaks of Order. As far as I know, in the modern western world, personal liberty is valued pretty high and depriving a person of liberty is not considered very nice.

Now you'd expect me to conclude saying something like: Order = evil, AV = good. Nope, good and evil as well as morals in general are concepts somebody created to control other people. It is of course up to you whether you agree or not.

...another idea is to allow Dural to build 'Trader' units which could act like miniature great merchants, trading their superior goods with other civs. it might be simpler to allow them to get extra trade routes from certain buildings.

While Disciples can do it, perhaps they could have a unit similar to the Rise of Mankind unit "the entertainer" that you can use to boost culture. In the Dural case, this unit (a Herald? lesser Bard?) would give a bigger cultural boost than you'd get from using a Disciple.

Maybe they could actually 'build' lesser versions of great people. I mean if you are going to take the time to build a Hero for war, why not build a 'hero' for culture or trade and the like?

Maybe they could actually 'build' lesser versions of great people. I mean if you are going to take the time to build a Hero for war, why not build a 'hero' for culture or trade and the like?

That's something I'd been considering too - inspired by Tarq's "Dark Council" heroes and the fact that Dannmos's 'pedia entry mentions that he keeps a number of "experts" to advise him on many topics...

Order is not about good. It is about obedience. Good and evil are gameplay mechanics in FfH, it has nothing to do with morals.

Now you'd expect me to conclude saying something like: Order = evil, AV = good. Nope, good and evil as well as morals in general are concepts somebody created to control other people. It is of course up to you whether you agree or not.

These are good points and I have no problem with them since I agree. However, for that to work the way I'm talking about (Lawful Evil as it were) then it would seem to need to have another set of alternate heroes and buildings depending on your religion.

I'm looking at the new FfH2k manual and there is a line about "The Order is rightly labeled good..." and all the heroes and buildings and enabled civics match that.

I've always had a problem with the religions and the way they flip your cultures alignment. To me, I would think that some religions like the Order should have two sides to it and depending on your alignment number (not good, evil or neutral, but you +/- number) should enable what you get.

For example, if you had a 'corrupted' Order where obedience is all and instead of enlightenment you have repression, then that Order should have a different Hero, different buildings and a different civic. I would think that if you had this Corrupted Order or perhaps Order is All, you're basically having the Fascist civic along with inquisitors and instead of Basilicas, you'd might have the FfH equivalent of police stations. You are totally right, they'd have fascism instead of liberty.

Plus you'd expect that they might be able to quell dissent using a Purge kind of similar to the Calabim's feeding their Vampires in that you'd basically execute :mad: citizens which would lower the cities population, give a cut to science beakers for awhile but would deny that city :mad: for a certain number of turns. This in turn might trigger a event in other players similar to the Calaibim refugee events.

That's something I'd been considering too - inspired by Tarq's "Dark Council" heroes and the fact that Dannmos's 'pedia entry mentions that he keeps a number of "experts" to advise him on many topics...

Just have them join the Dark Council. Bwaha, ha.

Just have them join the Dark Council. Bwaha, ha.

"All you have to lose is your humanity and your devotion to anything other than the total devotion to the Risen Emperor!"

I've always had a problem with the religions and the way they flip your cultures alignment. To me, I would think that some religions like the Order should have two sides to it and depending on your alignment number (not good, evil or neutral, but you +/- number) should enable what you get.

That's far more realistic, so far as the RW goes, and I wouldn't mind if the game worked that way. However, I think it's part of the fantasy background that religion trumps culture.

As things are I think you have to appeal to RPing. A Calabim Order is popular to play but not very "nice," for example.

OTOH, when Broader Alignment kicks in the changes won't be so absolute. A *really* Evil civ may only stop torturing on Mondays after 6 pm. once it embraces Tree Hugging, or whatever.

There's already a PrereqAlignment fields for Units and Civics. Once alignment changes due to religion become variable adding variant Units and Civics would be easy - the Prereq fields already exist in the files. If FF doesn't adopt the variants a module could still easily add them. (And that sort of mod really is easy. It's not much harder than filling out a form. Well, filling out a form and using a screen-shot to make an icon...

As things are I think you have to appeal to RPing. A Calabim Order is popular to play but not very "nice," for example.

Exactly and to me the Calabim are exactly the type of culture I'd expect with the fascist version of The Order. I could see the Scions under Korianna adopting it as well to use Order as an excuse to crush any dissent as well actually further the Cult of Personality of the Risen Emperor. I mean fascist governments tend to equate the State as being a body with the Leader being the brain in a way. With Order, Korianna can make sure all the citizens know their place in service to that Order that puts the deified Emperor as the head of the Body/State.

Anyway, the Order seems to be a really good religion to have a bit of good/bad side to it. Just because you are a dictatorial tyrant that will kill you in a heart beat if you dissent doesn't mean that if you 'play ball' he won't protect you, cherish you and all that because your devotion and well being acts as a mirror to his greatness. As I said earlier, a good example is Dr. Doom's comment about "The only freedom I take away is their freedom to do evil." Sounds great but Dr. D gets to be the one who defines evil and I'm sure anything that is counter to what Dr. D wants is evil. So again "Order" is a slippery concept and one that could easily be turned to what we'd considered evil and repressive.

It strikes me that Duin would make an excellent Evil Leaves hero - an excellent way to represent the feral aspects of a nature-based religion.

For example, if you had a 'corrupted' Order where obedience is all and instead of enlightenment you have repression, then that Order should have a different Hero, different buildings and a different civic. I would think that if you had this Corrupted Order or perhaps Order is All, you're basically having the Fascist civic along with inquisitors and instead of Basilicas, you'd might have the FfH equivalent of police stations. You are totally right, they'd have fascism instead of liberty.
Why would that be a different version of Order, if someone following Order (well, having the Social Order civic) already stones anyone speaking against the government?

Remember Basium is good, and doesn't care about collateral damage when fighting evil. I think Kael has at some point stated that if an innocent village was between Basium and an Infernal army, Basium would destroy the village to get to the Infernals.

While reading through this thread (and patiently (not very) waiting for FF 044 to be released) an idea occurred to me. Wouldn't it be nice if random events could affect your alignment rather than just building things or using certain civics or religions? Like the we found a witch and want to burn her event? It gives you two choices, burn the witch for a temporary happiness bonus with no ill effects or let her go for nothing. I should always burn her to make my citizens happy, but I must admit I generally don't because +1 happiness for a short period of time doesn't seem all that good to me for killing an innocent woman. I know it's just a game, but it bothers me. Now if killing her moved my alignment toward evil, and that is what I wanted I would kill her every time.

While reading through this thread (and patiently (not very) waiting for FF 044 to be released) an idea occurred to me. Wouldn't it be nice if random events could affect your alignment rather than just building things or using certain civics or religions? Like the we found a witch and want to burn her event? It gives you two choices, burn the witch for a temporary happiness bonus with no ill effects or let her go for nothing. I should always burn her to make my citizens happy, but I must admit I generally don't because +1 happiness for a short period of time doesn't seem all that good to me for killing an innocent woman. I know it's just a game, but it bothers me. Now if killing her moved my alignment toward evil, and that is what I wanted I would kill her every time.

I totally agree since there should always be a trade off. I've noticed that in the werewolf event, there isn't much of a downside. Most people, I'm sure, are just trying to do what ever gets them the werewolf promotion.

Although unless you are using the broader alignment option, perhaps you don't necessarily see any change. I do, but I don't recall seeing a change.

My thoughts


Give them slightly cheaper workers than everyone else (20% less or so)
give them +1:hammers: and +1 :culture: from Worker specialists. you know, the default type that you can have an infinite amount of.
Allow their workers to add themselves to the city, giving a set amount of :hammers: towards the current building. Like soldiers of Kilmorph. Perhaps this amount could also increase with certain techs, like Engineering
Give them 1 free worker specialist for each worker stationed (sleeping) in the city.
Some sort of academy that trains all unit types faster, to a certain level.

My thoughts


Give them slightly cheaper workers than everyone else (20% less or so)
give them +1:hammers: and +1 :culture: from Worker specialists. you know, the default type that you can have an infinite amount of.
Allow their workers to add themselves to the city, giving a set amount of :hammers: towards the current building. Like soldiers of Kilmorph. Perhaps this amount could also increase with certain techs, like Engineering
Give them 1 free worker specialist for each worker stationed (sleeping) in the city.
Some sort of academy that trains all unit types faster, to a certain level.


Some nice ones here - especially relating to the Citizen specialists...

I'd like to see the Citizen-Specialists buff for the Dural, myself.

Someone a while up mentioned that it doesn't make much sense to have empires that can train incredibly powerful combat units using the resources of the civilization, but not any other kind of important people... and I agree. This need not apply to only the Dural, but it seems like a great idea... buildable specialists which cost a lot of hammers (perhaps even food too, in the construction) but are added to a city when complete, to add a sort of "work now, payoff later" approach, much like happened in the great revolutionary periods of our history as real humans... I think that buildings shouldn't be the only non-combat things you can build. Mini-great people would be great, especially for the Dural.

I was thinking the other night, that one thing that FFH and FF lack is a civ that simply can't/won't use magic. The Khazad to some extent I guess....but I was thinking that perhaps there is an opportunity to have the Dural as a magic intolerant civ - with things like Witchfinder General units?

The Academic element of the Dural could be represented by an Engineering side - so perhaps they could be a little more steampunkish, with Steam Cannons (fire thrower-esque) and Airships?

Using magic directly would be heretical - so as such Arcane units would be unavailable to them, except perhaps for an "Engineer" unit replacement that could convert raw mana (perhaps limited mana - so no Necromancy?). The mana itself would not be allowed to be used directly by the Engineer, but access to it would allow the purchase of equipment - so for example fire and water mana may be the pre-requisite for a "Steam Cannon" promotion.

if we want a magic-hater civ, my vote goes to the Mechanos from Orbis ;)

I'd like to see the Mechanos in, but the Dural don't seem to be the type to drop Magic alltogether.

Gekko;7728992']if we want a magic-hater civ, my vote goes to the Mechanos from Orbis ;)

As one who has been playing the Mechanos a lot lately, I agree.

However, some ideas I've tossed around on the Orbis mod & Religious mod thread might be applicable here.

First off, for the Mechanos & the Grigori and the Risen Emperor of the Scions get less benefit from Great Prophets than the other races due. So I was thinking perhaps those races (at first) might have access to a Great Philosopher instead. Now this might be a different unit or many there might be put in some sort of IF THEN/GOTO that allows Great Prophets to 'promote' to Great Philosophers instead. These units could found the Humanism "holy city" (which would be like a Super Academy) or join a city as a super-specialist that would bring in science and culture. To me, the Dural might want Great Philosophers instead of Prophets as well, especially since it looks like the new version of FfH/FF have newer buildings that can only be built by certain types of specialist.

A quick sub-text to that: I miss Cathedrals. Now Orbis has University as a National Wonder so I was thinking that perhaps that Great Prophets or Great Philosophers could also be used to create a National Wonder, a Cathedral in the Prophets case and a University/Seminary for the Great Philosopher.

Anyway, on the Religious mod thread I pointed out that the 'basic' religion of humanity isn't Paganism but animism and then later ancestor worship. Some of these become more 'refined' like in the animistic Shintoism and ancestor focused Confucianism. Neither of these are religions in the sense of being God(s) driven. With the abundance of mana and the like, I really could see animism. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying people can't be moral w/o a religious system, but most moral systems tend to have a religious base to it. So to me, even though the Grigori are agnostic, I don't see why they couldn't start with the base Animism with shrines to such. (Meditation chambers if you will) and then later could get something akin to Confucianism. If the Mechanos are added (or not) this could later go to "Human"ism which I would see as a direct rejection of the Gods and their interference in Erebus.

The Dural definitely look like they might tend toward this "Human"ism since they themselves strive to create and inspire so why do you best and then have to say "I'd like to thank (insert deity) for inspiring me."

Of course in Orbis, Humanism doesn't spread like a religion but I think it should and would have the affect similar to Order and AV in the same city.

Cross out Risen Emperor. They would still benefit from prophets. Something like their priest units, the Doomsayer. Other than that, I get your point, good ideas.

Cross out Risen Emperor. They would still benefit from prophets. Something like their priest units, the Doomsayer. Other than that, I get your point, good ideas.

Not exactly. As I said, The Risen Emperor can only use it to create the Nox Novus since that is the only (?) Holy City they can get and I'm not even sure about that. So while your point is valid, a Scion player might want the benefit of a Great Philosopher building instead of a Altar of Lutunar, especially since they probably won't get very many of them.

What if the Dural could sac great prophets to build Master Craftsman type buildings? It seems to me that these Masters are very Dural, at heart. Something to do with them, perhaps?

Not exactly. As I said, The Risen Emperor can only use it to create the Nox Novus since that is the only (?) Holy City they can get and I'm not even sure about that. So while your point is valid, a Scion player might want the benefit of a Great Philosopher building instead of a Altar of Lutunar, especially since they probably won't get very many of them.

Actually, I tend to crank out MORE prophets as The Risen Emperor than anyone else... A high-powered Legate or Doomsayer right of the gate, to generate Reborn? Yes, please. ;)

Not exactly. As I said, The Risen Emperor can only use it to create the Nox Novus since that is the only (?) Holy City they can get and I'm not even sure about that. So while your point is valid, a Scion player might want the benefit of a Great Philosopher building instead of a Altar of Lutunar, especially since they probably won't get very many of them.
Yes, but flavour wise they would definetly use prophets. I know they aren't quite as good for them, as they are agnostic, but they are still desent GP. Holy city buildings are just one aspect of the great prophet (a large one albet, but just one).

Someone was talking about being able to build mini-great specialists, that made me think of the following.

How about an engineer hero that gets a hope like spell/special ability that gives a hammer bonus instead of culture(or possibly some hammers and culture). So hes basically a great engineer that you can move to a developing town to give it a boost off the bat. Perhaps also something similar to rush construction, where he can rush construction of any "normal" building, but then can't use the ability again for x number of turns? Lastly, perhaps have him give a defensive boost to any town hes in(similar to how guardsmen give a defense boost).

Someone was talking about being able to build mini-great specialists, that made me think of the following.

How about an engineer hero that gets a hope like spell/special ability that gives a hammer bonus instead of culture(or possibly some hammers and culture). So hes basically a great engineer that you can move to a developing town to give it a boost off the bat. Perhaps also something similar to rush construction, where he can rush construction of any "normal" building, but then can't use the ability again for x number of turns? Lastly, perhaps have him give a defensive boost to any town hes in(similar to how guardsmen give a defense boost).

nice idea, I'd love this. I carefully nurture new cities :D

Gekko;7738527']nice idea, I'd love this. I carefully nurture new cities :D

In regard to nurturing cities, on of the things I miss from the old Rise & Rule Mod of Civ III (precursor to the Civ IV Rise of Mankind Mod) is the concept of the prize ship.

When a pirate ship took a ship, you had a chance to get a prize ship. This was basically a cruddy galleon in the same way a slave is a cruddy worker. However, when you took it back to port and 'destroyed' it (the Civ III equivalent of adding it as a hammer bonus similar to slaves) you'd get a BIG hammer bonus. This, I felt, was keeping with how lucrative take prizes were. Many a Frigate commander turned down higher command because it paid to be a smaller ship commander during war so you could use your Letters of Marque to make more money.

I wish we could bring that back in Civ IV. Pirate ships could create prizes as well as pirate ships themselves could become prize ships. The reason I really liked these (and why I'm bringing it up) is you often have island cities with only a few (if any) extra tiles to bring in hammers. These cities grow slowly and bringing in the prizes ships was a good way to grow them quickly.

Another thought is some way to have a mini-bard that brings in the people to that area and so works like the Scions unit and adds a +1 to the city. Being able to bulk up a certain city is a powerful tool. It's the one thing I miss from Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri; setters could add population to existing cities. Not sure why that isn't a option anymore as you use to be able to do it in Civ III.

yeah, using settlers to add population to cities would make sense to me.

Gekko;7738665']yeah, using settlers to add population to cities would make sense to me.

Didn't this happen when settlers cost a population point to build rather than just stopping growth?

Yep, in Civ III it cost you a pop point to build a settler.

I thought it was 1 pop for a worker, 2 for a settler.

I thought it was 1 pop for a worker, 2 for a settler.

Yep. And one for a Colonist in the AoD scenario.

As for Dural "Citizens", all should cost food and Hammers a la Settlers. Only one of each type per City. They could all produce 2 Food, thus paying for themselves foodwise.

Suggested names:

Labourer: As Citizen. (Cost should be cheaper than others)
Poet: +1 Culture (Requires Drama)
Playwright: +2 Culture (Requires Theatre)
Architect: (Requires Engineering and City Size 10+)
Elder: (Requires Elder Council)
Professor: (Requires Library or some kind of University National Wonder?)
Not too sure what the Priest replacement (if any) would be.

Great Works could give you a minor GP instead of 100 Hammers.

What I'm currently considering regarding the Dural citizen specialists (the ones that you can always assign, in unlimited number, normally producing 1 Hammer) is a Palace that provides +1 Culture to each (so every citizen produces culture) and a set of "Colleges", only one of which can be build per city, which grants the citizens in that city yields similar to a true specialist.

College of Engineering +3 Hammers
College of Science +3 Science
College of Art +3 Culture
College of Economics +2 gold

etc...

That allows each city to "study" (specialize) in a specific area. It also sets the civ up neatly to favour cultural victories, due to being able to gain a very respectable amount of culture per citizen (+4 each with college of Art and Palace). Engineering is obviously for production cities, Economics help with maintaining the empire, Science has obvious benefits when stacked with libraries and such...

It also fits well with the thematics that the Dural aren't really about outstanding individuals and heroes - but that every citizen plays a role and contributes to their society, though each may be outstanding in some respect.

===

The main difference to the idea above is that it does not require any additional specialists to be defined (which would be visible but unassignable to other civs unless the city interface was rewritten slightly). It simply uses the existing "non-specialist specialists", and makes them a little more special. Each city would also still be able to assign other specialists as they desired/were allowed. A library in an Economic city for instance would still allow a Sage.

So basically you want to give them a weaker form of guilds(I think its guilds, whatever one gives unlimited of 4 diff types) with no gpp points/only one type per city, but avail much earlier in the game?

Also note that with civics/wonders you can get up to 8 culture per citizen. While not as bad as unlimited bards at 10 per unit late game, it might lead to some wierd really early culture vics.

Another idea, rather than having each city specialize in this way, would be to just make them have unlimited specialists(and perhaps the sidar boost to specialists, or boosts as they get techs/buildings) from the start, but no great people growth? This would fit with each citizen filling the roll as best he can, but there being no "heroes", and give them a unique playstyle, if it could be balanced that specialists were still worth using, even without the gpp.

Vehem's idea sounds great. can't wait to try out the new Dural :D

an idea for the Dural:

they could be made unable to adopt a religion, BUT able to build every building and unit that requires a state religion, as long as they have the religion present in the city and the appropriate tech, so a city with OO could build asylums and stygian guards, etc.

Keeping with their lore of students and artists, they should still not be able to build religious temples. It would probably be best to block them from getting religious heroes and high priests too. this way they would be encouraged to spread all religions around their cities so they can study them and learn their useful assets. order and ashen veil should not be spread in the same city as I'm pretty sure it gives problems though, and Empyrean and Esus could get a similar drawback to represent the rivality between the councils and the gods.

think how fun it would be to have an army of rathas and diseased corpses, with a couple cultists added for flavour :D

What I'm currently considering regarding the Dural citizen specialists (the ones that you can always assign, in unlimited number, normally producing 1 Hammer) is a Palace that provides +1 Culture to each (so every citizen produces culture) and a set of "Colleges", only one of which can be build per city, which grants the citizens in that city yields similar to a true specialist.

College of Engineering +3 Hammers
College of Science +3 Science
College of Art +3 Culture
College of Economics +2 gold

etc...

That allows each city to "study" (specialize) in a specific area. It also sets the civ up neatly to favour cultural victories, due to being able to gain a very respectable amount of culture per citizen (+4 each with college of Art and Palace). Engineering is obviously for production cities, Economics help with maintaining the empire, Science has obvious benefits when stacked with libraries and such...

It also fits well with the thematics that the Dural aren't really about outstanding individuals and heroes - but that every citizen plays a role and contributes to their society, though each may be outstanding in some respect.

===

The main difference to the idea above is that it does not require any additional specialists to be defined (which would be visible but unassignable to other civs unless the city interface was rewritten slightly). It simply uses the existing "non-specialist specialists", and makes them a little more special. Each city would also still be able to assign other specialists as they desired/were allowed. A library in an Economic city for instance would still allow a Sage.

Maybe i'm not understanding this but what would be the benefit as a Dural player? Ex.. it would always be a better choice to assign two specialists to scientists than to stick them in the generic worker slot in a city with the College of Science. The former grants GPP and you can stick them in once you've built an elder council and library (two very common buildings) rather than build a College first. Same thing goes with the other Colleges to a lesser extent. Sure, you can use it for overflow specialists but even then, i'd rather stick a regular citizen on a mined grassy hill for +1 food and +3 hammers than in the College of Engineering worker slot for +3 hammers (+1 culture for the Dural Palace). I don't usually have any overflow specialists that cannot be assigned to one of the specialist slots. Maybe my style of play is not normal or maybe i'm just not understanding this concept.

Well, actually, you get 3 beakers, a hammer, and a culture from a Citizen-Specialist in the College of Science.

And GPP are really only useful in your major GPP city, because that primary city will lap every other city. Don't forget all those yields are in addition to the +1 hammer and +1 culture from the citizen-specialist themselves.

My only concern is that I thought the Sidar were the specialist masters?

Well, actually, you get 3 beakers, a hammer, and a culture from a Citizen-Specialist in the College of Science.

And GPP are really only useful in your major GPP city, because that primary city will lap every other city. Don't forget all those yields are in addition to the +1 hammer and +1 culture from the citizen-specialist themselves.

My only concern is that I thought the Sidar were the specialist masters?

Different styles of specialism. Sidar can settle great people without having to feed them, while the Dural would still have to feed them.

...The Risen Emperor can only use it to create the Nox Novus since that is the only (?) Holy City they can get ....

Nox Noctis