Well I just won my first game out of probably over 10 losses, and I wanted to make a post on how I've taken tips from here and tips from economics.

First, EVERY ACTION HAS AN OPPORTUNITY COST, which is by the way awesome. I've seen posts that almost want to eliminate this, which would be insane.

-1) You can produce Bells early to get Founding Fathers quickly, but this has the cost of making a huge REF (which in my win was not worth it). OR, you can produce Political Points to get Founding Fathers quickly, which has the cost of taking up your production queue in the town (this is the strategy I employed. DON'T JUST MAKE STUFF BECAUSE YOU CAN. If you don't have anything useful to build, build Political Points).

-2) When offered a Founding Father, you can accept him which gives you a bonus, at the cost of the cost of the Points. The earlier you get him/her, the longer you enjoy the bonus. OR, you can reject him and wait for a later and better one, at the cost of not being able to get the rejected Founding Father ever. So, get the Founding Fathers that work in your strategy, which there are MANY (which is great). Don't just get the first one to pop up. If you don't use missions, don't get mission boosters, etc. And please don't patch it so you can get the earlier ones again, which I saw someone suggest in another post.

-3) You can accept the king's demands, which keeps you at good relations which helps for getting VERY cheap military units and possibly extending the time between tax increases, at the cost of gold. OR, you can reject his demands to save money, at the cost of cutting you off from cheap military units and boycotted trade goods. So, I accepted his demands early on when I needed to, and when I was economically self sufficient, I rejected them.

-4) You can settle close to Native Villages in order to get those good spots and be close to a "training facility" at the cost of gold and pissing off the Natives. This is pretty much a judgment call. As French, I was getting along well with the Tupi, training and trading, but as I encroached more and more, they FRIGGIN BACK STAB ME AND TAKE OUT 2 CITIES. Gah, but retribution was swift.

Second, SPECIALIZATION IS THE KEY TO A GOOD ECONOMY. Proposed by Adam Smith, who is appropriately in the game, this ensures you have an awesome economy. Application is simple: make FOOD cities to pump out colonists and I use them as teaching cities, make ORE cities to pump out tools and guns, and make TRADE GOOD cities to pump out natural and manufactured goods. And by mid game, try to have specialists doing what they do best, EXCEPT Elder Statesmen until you're ready for that.

Third, YOU'RE GOING TO EXPERIENCE DIMINISHING MARGINAL RETURNS ON EDUCATION, TRADING (with increasing taxes), and bells (not sure). Expect it, fight it, but don't whine about it: it's a fact of economic life. I made my education city in a place with a TON of food, 1 or 2 DENSE FORESTS, and a LUMBER MILL. Reason: I quickly got up to the University, which pumps out the most Education points, to delay the effects of the increasing time to educate. With this method, I was able to quickly train fishermen and farmers, which increased my colonist growth, and then Elder Statesmen. It was an awesome Statesmen Producing Machine. So, when I wanted to declare Independence, I had the Elders ready to pump out Bells to surprise the King and get a TON of Founding Fathers (GET THE BONUS BELLS ONES, it really helps). If Education is patched to make training time constant, it would be WAY overpowered. Obtaining Elder Statesmen for about a third of the cost is awesome. So, the cost of educating too early (and with School houses) is that it will get to long time lengths, but I didn't experience because I got what I needed, not necessarily what I wanted.

This is an awesome game. I may appreciate it more because I'm an Economics double major, but this is the first game in a long time to grab and hold my attention, much much more than CIV.

I don't think bells diminish. That would be really evil.
BTW, don't train fishermen and farmers in your schools, use the natives for that. Spare your schools for the specialists that really matters (mostly statesmen IMHO, but also lumberjacks and carpenters), so that the increase in education needed remains as low as possible.
Also, never educate criminals or indentured servants (or natives for that matter), send them to the natives, or to the army.

Oh yeah, that's true, I forgot I did that. I FIRST trained Lumberjacks and Carpenters (since it was a Lumber Mill city) so I could quickly get that University. And I had to educate Fishermen and Farmers because my close natives backstabbed me and I had to wipe them out, and the next closest Natives were too far away to be efficient turn wise. But, they are ESSENTIAL for pumping out colonists to be educated. And then I started making Statesmen.

True, criminals and indentured servants are better for the army, but I was getting a new specialist probably every 8 turns with a full university. And when I started getting Founding Fathers, I was able to get bonuses to the universities, so never say never ;)

And I what I meant by diminishing returns on Bells is that at first the jump might be to 5%, but the next turn it may go to 9% (a 4% increase). I didn't pay too much attention to that, so I'm not sure.

-1) You can produce Bells early to get Founding Fathers quickly, but this has the cost of making a huge REF (which in my win was not worth it). OR, you can produce Political Points to get Founding Fathers quickly, which has the cost of taking up your production queue in the town (this is the strategy I employed. DON'T JUST MAKE STUFF BECAUSE YOU CAN. If you don't have anything useful to build, build Political Points).


This is actually wrong. It doesn't make the expeditionary force any larger unless you keep pumping bells after a colony has hit the needed rebel sentiment. Since early colonies are so tiny, though, even a single free colonist can get the sentiment up ~5% per turn, so it's not hard to see why people would think that early bells =WTFOMGHOLYSHIT REF

Heh, responding to the same point in 2 threads...

I am SURE that the REF increases before 50% ("hit the needed rebel sentiment"), so I'm not exactly sure what you mean.

by the time you declare independence you'll need the SAME amount of bells to hit 50% no matter what path you take....fast bell boom or a slower, more gradual approach. The end REF size will be the same.

Some people make bells early, let their colonies hit the needed sentiment, and then KEEP PRODUCING THEM beyond the needed levels which naturally expands the expeditionary force.

The same effect would be reached by simply waiting an extra 20 turns when you take the "Hold off until late to get bells" approach.

Interesting, so the choice in strategy comes in if you want to either be Militarily ready 1st and then mass produce bells, or Sentimentally ready 1st and then mass produce weapons? Does that make Political production useless, or just a supplement?

It would seem to take a lot more skill to judge when the right time to declare is if you're always at 50% compared to the other. Also, you would have to most likely spend a lot of money early on for Elder Statesmen and Printing Presses instead of economic specialists and buildings.

That would depend heavily on how the game handles rebel sentiment. If it registers it per unit, then it's not true (which it does AFAIK), as you can loose or disband units, thus loosing produced liberty bells.
And what about trained pops? Do they loose their "gathered" liberty bells?

Actually rebel sentiment seems to decay so in that case you do get a larger REF if you produce bells first, then do something else and let it decay before building up rebel sentiment again for the WOI.

This is actually wrong. It doesn't make the expeditionary force any larger unless you keep pumping bells after a colony has hit the needed rebel sentiment. Since early colonies are so tiny, though, even a single free colonist can get the sentiment up ~5% per turn, so it's not hard to see why people would think that early bells =WTFOMGHOLYSHIT REF

I don't think that's true. It looks like you are thinking that the REF only increases the moment you make a bell and that if you stop making bells it stops increasing. If this were the case, the only way you could get a huge REF would be to continue making bells instead of starting a revolution when your able.

But this isn't the case. For one, I am absolutely positive I've had the king add to the REF when I was producing no bells whatsoever (but had in the past). My theory is that every bell you produce adds to an invisible "threat" level EVERY turn after it's been produced. When this threat reaches certain amounts, the king adds forces to the REF. If you make bells early, it has a bad effect on the REF because you are adding more to it every single turn following that. By making no bells at all and then generating a ton all at once when you are ready, your only progressing this "threat" level a minimal amount and you end up with a smaller REF.

This seems to mirror observations made by myselves and others. If you make bells throughout the game (even just a small number) you end up with HUGE REF. If you make zero bells and then swarm them at the last moment, you get a tiny one.

<<< This is an awesome game. I may appreciate it more because I'm an Economics double major, but this is the first game in a long time to grab and hold my attention, much much more than CIV. >>>

Colonel Flagg, I totally agree with you. Civ 4, IMO, is the weakest Civ I've played. I liked Civ 3 much better, but Colonization beats them all. I love the economic stuff, though I didn't major in it (wish now that I had -- Thomas Sowell is my idol). How did you learn all this stuff in just one week? The game only debuted 8 or 9 days ago!

One more tip -- Criminals etc. make great Missionaries early on, in addition to learning from Natives. And of course they are great soldiers at any time in the game.

Actually rebel sentiment seems to decay so in that case you do get a larger REF if you produce bells first, then do something else and let it decay before building up rebel sentiment again for the WOI.

but as long as it's constant it doesn't decay, right?

One more tip -- Criminals etc. make great Missionaries early on, in addition to learning from Natives. And of course they are great soldiers at any time in the game.

But get criminals a penalty for being a missionary or they do have the same level as a free colonist being a missionary ? Eq give criminal missionaries a slower conver rate than normal missionaries ? If not, this could be an (little) exploit.

But get criminals a penalty for being a missionary or they do have the same level as a free colonist being a missionary ? Eq give criminal missionaries a slower conver rate than normal missionaries ? If not, this could be an (little) exploit.

As far as I know criminals have no penalty as a missionary. I have not actually tracked the time to double check this, but I don't think the mission created is any different (except from Jesuit missions, of course).

Nothing in the Civilopedia implies that Criminals (or anyone) function differently for missions except Jesuits.

If someone knows otherwise, that WOULD be good information to have.

I don't think bells diminish. That would be really evil.
BTW, don't train fishermen and farmers in your schools, use the natives for that. Spare your schools for the specialists that really matters (mostly statesmen IMHO, but also lumberjacks and carpenters), so that the increase in education needed remains as low as possible.
Also, never educate criminals or indentured servants (or natives for that matter), send them to the natives, or to the army.

It should be noted Native only know the gathering specialties.

Food - Farmer/Fisherman
Crops - Tobacco/Cotton/Sugar Planter
Goods - Fur Trapper/Ore Miner/Silver Miner

They don't know the indoor stuff, When I educate it's almost always Lumberjacks and Carpenters to start. In fact, I haven't seen Natives with Lumberjack training anyway. Once that's covered I go to Ore Miner and Blacksmiths and then Gunsmiths.

The bells does diminish.
also if you do not produse enough bells per turn in a big city then you will never reach 100%.
even in an unlimited gamelength.

It should be noted Native only know the gathering specialties.

Actually, that isn't completely true. In my last game, what I really needed was fur trappers, but the local tribes didn't have that to offer me. Instead, they trained my people as Master Fur Traders, which are used inside, to produce coats.

Actually, that isn't completely true. In my last game, what I really needed was fur trappers, but the local tribes didn't have that to offer me. Instead, they trained my people as Master Fur Traders, which are used inside, to produce coats.

I vaguely remember that actually but I'm a bit surprised by no lumberjacks. I think their training ultimately depends on their tribe and their geography. Usually villages around the tundras and fur squares tend to have fur trappers or traders.

Come to think of it, the one training I haven't seen in my games consistently are sugar planters. Which kinda sucks because indulgent natives always seem to want lots of rum and cigars...

but as long as it's constant it doesn't decay, right?

Your accumulated rebel sentiment diminishes by about 10% per turn (on Normal) if you are not producing any new bells.

So early bells, then stopping, works for making FFs, but it's useless for getting a Rebel Sentiment production bonus.

For a given number of Bells/turn and a given population, there's also a maximum possible rebel sentiment. The limit is 25 * Bells-per-turn / population (with a max of 100). For example, if you're making 18 Bells/turn in a pop 12 settlement, you can never get more than 37% rebel sentiment, no matter how many total bells you produce.

Your actual sentiment approaches this limit asymptotically, so you get the most benefit from the first 15-20 turns (on Normal) of bell production.

On the Petty Criminal question, I know that they are very poor at just about everything, so it would not surprise me to find that their conversion rates as missionaries are lower than Free Colonists or even Indentured Servants. What's the point in having them otherwise? I just wish they were cheaper to purchase on the docks. Kinda bites that in the immigrant queue, they cost as much as an Elder Statesman or Firebrand Preacher, but perform less than half as well.

Application is simple: make FOOD cities to pump out colonists
And horses, horses rely on food for production and they make Dragoons.


Also, specialisation and the division of labour is a good idea. However this leads to a lot of city building and the more cities you have and the bigger your land area the bigger the REF gets. It may behoove a player to not build as many cities which mean some might have to do more than one function.

If you can get an awesome city site, then yes by all means multi-function. In my last game I had one with 1 fish, 1 mountain, 1 hill, 3 dense forests, and 2 marsh/plains, so plenty of food, plenty of ore, and plenty of lumber. But I can't say that's common.

One possible reason there may be no lumberjack-trainers is because the Natives preserve the land, not chop it down. Makes some kind of sense, anyway.

Guys,
Can you tell approximately what is (in numbers) huge REF? I am playing on Govenor now, got 85 turns left to win, with 25% total rebel sentiment, and REF is as follows:

81 Regulars
29 Dragoons
18 Artilerry
8 Man-o-War

Guess that's huge? :) Wonder if i'll make it or just start another one (that game was exploring really). Thanks

I agree with the OP -- I love the economic tradeoffs in this game. I still have some questions though:

1. Someone above wrote that REF size depends in part on colony size. I thought I read in another post that REF size was tied solely to total bell production over time. Which is right?

2. For me one of the hardest tradeoffs is on bells. I tend to need them early if only to keep my settlements from being culturally swallowed by European neighbors. But I've read that making bells over a long period of time is worse than a short spurt of bells, because of decay. In other words, prolonged bell-building will produce a larger REF than a short bursts. What to do?

3. Do we ever need more than one college/school/university? Also, what precisely is the advantage of a university over a college?

4. One more: where do you get that FIRST lumberjack or blacksmith or carpenter with whom to educate others? Hope to get lucky on the docks, or purchase? You can't train one unless you get one as an immigrant first, right?

Wow, my post got placed into the strategy article section?! That's pretty cool!

Grotius: 1 and 2) The REF size depends in part on colony size because you need an absolute (as opposed to relative) greater number of bells in order to get up to 50% rebel sentiment. But also, I don't know the exact math, but it's something like "it doesn't matter if you produce 1 bell or 100 bells a turn, the REF will still increase by the same size" (THESE NUMBERS ARE NOT ACCURATE). So, it's better to produce as many bells in a short period in order to have a smaller REF. I am actually going to try a new strategy in my next game where I produce 20 bells early in order to expand my borders, and then stop until I'm ready to declare independence. (HOVER OVER THE BELL SYMBOL UNDER THE TOWN HALL IN THE COLONY SCREEN TO SEE HOW MANY BELLS YOU HAVE).

3) I have probably never had more than one university because I can simply move specialists into the university city in order to train the Colonist (doesn't need to be there the whole "educating" period" just the last turn). And I can't tell you the precise advantage (should probably read the Civilopedia), but it produces more "books," so you educate faster, and, like bells, when you produce books faster, it reduces the effects of diminishing marginal returns so the next Colonist doesn't take too much longer.

4) Yes, you have to either be lucky or purchase, but purchasing those units does not change over time, only Veteran Soldiers and Cannons increase with each purchase (maybe ships, but I've never bought one when I can just make one).

Thanks for that reply. That answers all my questions.

You mentioned that you sometimes make ships. I assume you mean galleons, privateers and the like. Ever tried making a navy large enough to take on the King? That seems like a monumental task.

Well, now I take that back, because in my last game I actually did buy a galleon because I had a ton of treasures and cigars to sell, so I had enough, then I bought a frigate to combat some roving privateers. So there is never just one path to victory! :)

But yes, I primarily make privateers and galleons, but never Ships of the Line or Frigates to combat the King's Navy because it is way too powerful, and you have some advantage on land if you strategize correctly. But I have read other people doing that.

Well, now I take that back, because in my last game I actually did buy a galleon because I had a ton of treasures and cigars to sell, so I had enough, then I bought a frigate to combat some roving privateers. So there is never just one path to victory! :)

But yes, I primarily make privateers and galleons, but never Ships of the Line or Frigates to combat the King's Navy because it is way too powerful, and you have some advantage on land if you strategize correctly. But I have read other people doing that.

I've won by navy once but you have to pray that the king's navy wouldn't grow during the Liberty Bell push. If you make 7-8 Ship of the Lines and King has still 4 Man-o-Wars then you have probably won. But If king increases his navy to 10 then you have lost it.

Welcome to the Forums mstrzelec. :beer:

I have had good luck building a navy to beat the king. Just make sure you are on costal squares with a stack of units so he can't pick them off. In general it is a lot more cost and time effective to have built a pile of cannons and armed many soldiers than build a boat to fight the king. The big ships are more for multiplayer games. As a side note privateers are always worth having atleast one!