Pick Simon Bolivar as your leader.
Turns 1-5: Settle your colony next to a native settlement as close to europe as possible. The surrounding land is pretty unimportant, just make sure you have 1 food resource or 4 food on the main tile.

Sell your starting tools and muskets to the natives and rush back to europe. Send the ex-pioneer visiting native villages. Do not step on ruins unless you feel lucky. The soldier starts producing bells and you want to manufacture politocal points.

Turns 5-15: The caravel travels back to europe with Dragoons recruited from the dock. One of your recruit goes to the townhall, the other becomes a scout who explores in the opposite direction from your ex-pioneer. The remaining horses and muskets get sold to the indians.

Turns 15-25: You will be offered the Founding Father that has 1/2 travel speed to Europe. Take him. Shortly afterwards you will be offered Peter Minuit, take him as well. The caravel makes more trade trips.

Turns 25-35: Once you get Minuit, buy a second caravel and cannons in Europe. You should be able to buy ~6 cannons and 100 muskets/horses. Once your caravels are back in the new world, delete all your colonists until you have 100% rebel sentiment. Declare independence, pick all men are free and the bell-enhancing civics. Your veteran soldier and one of the indentured servants become dragoons. With 6 cannons and 2 dragoons sporting a +100% combat bonus defeating the Royal Expedition force is trivial.

Turn 40-45: Congratulations you have successfully exploited the broken game mechanics.

Been there done that already....

Wait... So being able to win the game early is a broken game mechanic?

"delete all your colonists until you have 100% rebel sentiment"

That's the broken game mechanic.. I beat the game a couple times and it really doesn't have much replay value until they fix the "small colony has an easier time beating the king than a big one does."

Such cheats!

Just add two things - you can change your colonist in docks into dragoon, so you can get extra horses/guns for trade and also colonist in docks counts against bells so did not forget get rid of them.

And yes winning that fast is broken. Show me fast win like this in Civ on standard map on highest difficulty. Civ had also its exploits, but Col punish you for expanding on so many different levels, that it just force you play this way.

"delete all your colonists until you have 100% rebel sentiment"

Not necessarily a broken game mechanic... Just because you can use that to increase sentiment; then again, players look for all methods to exploit the game. - If you have a problem with this, simply don't do it...

"small colony has an easier time beating the king than a big one does."

With a bigger colony you're gonna be having a bigger military, better economy, trade, etc. than a smaller colony. - REF scales exponentionally on the size of your colony, so that doesnt necessarily mean a 'smaller' colony will have an easier time beating the king than a 'larger' colony if you play your cards right in both cases.

I was talking to a buddy about this issue, and we think that the REF and bell issue isn't as big of an issue that players make it out to be, and just because you think winning the game early, makes the game broken, doesn't mean it is.

Although we think the cannons price should be increased to a starting price of ~600, to prevent cannon spamming, and the starting REF should be larger; (for ex. 20 soldiers, 17 dragoons, 12 artillery, 10 man-o-wars)... Then it should increase slower than it currently does for generating a lot of bells; so we have an incentive to create a decent colony-size; or early bell production.

I think the current REF and bell system Col currently has is good, and will be even better with a few small fixes.

I'm enjoying the game more than ever, and remember... If there is a game mechanic that you feel is broken, or you don't like it... Then simply don't use it. ;)

-Aegore

This is clearly broken. The sad part is if they just made the starting REF a decent size (increasing for each skill level) and reduced the REF growth caused by bells there would not be this problem.

I thought this was the exact kind of thing you had Beta testers for. Seems very sloppy.

You make a good point, but 40 turns is just too short. I can't see anyone enjoying a game like that even if winning meant everything.

Beating the REF pretty easily isn't a problem. Although the changes Aegore mentioned would be good, your primary rivals should be the other colonies IMO.

Question for the people who have tried this: what normalized score does it give you?

I thought this was the exact kind of thing you had Beta testers for. Seems very sloppy.

I though we all know that we pay Firaxis for privillege to be betatesters :crazyeye:

There must be done lot of fixes, like redone FF, slower inflantation of crosses and learning, usable UI for seting trade rotues, competent and more agresive AI.

But fundamental flaw in this game is too much focus on beating REF. The main concern should be other colonies and natives. Otherwise this game become pointless, you need feel clock on you. WIh curent state of game, you can do practicly whatever you want, other colonies are no treat and REF grow as fast as you choose to grow, I can skip first 100 turn on hardest difficulty and still win.
Even when they made good AI that will be able to beat REF, tehrer remain problem that each time AI start revolution, it will face not just royal forces but also human player. In my opinion REF should be constant or at least grow lineary with time (and on hardest difficulty computer need face like 1/4 of REF you will be facing). But building of colony should be harder with more agressive AI and natives and you should need more bells or something. Also I absolutely don't get why price for buying specialist is constant, when every other possibility to obtain him becomes harder with time (schools, missions, crosses). And probably rising colonist be food should become also harder in this case. Now that should make competetive enviroment so you will not need so big REF. And with better AI, that get serious bonuses, game should become really hard on revolutionary.

Not necessarily a broken game mechanic... Just because you can use that to increase sentiment; then again, players look for all methods to exploit the game. - If you have a problem with this, simply don't do it...



With a bigger colony you're gonna be having a bigger military, better economy, trade, etc. than a smaller colony. - REF scales exponentionally on the size of your colony, so that doesnt necessarily mean a 'smaller' colony will have an easier time beating the king than a 'larger' colony if you play your cards right in both cases.

I was talking to a buddy about this issue, and we think that the REF and bell issue isn't as big of an issue that players make it out to be, and just because you think winning the game early, makes the game broken, doesn't mean it is.

Although we think the cannons price should be increased to a starting price of ~600, to prevent cannon spamming, and the starting REF should be larger; (for ex. 20 soldiers, 17 dragoons, 12 artillery, 10 man-o-wars)... Then it should increase slower than it currently does for generating a lot of bells; so we have an incentive to create a decent colony-size; or early bell production.

I think the current REF and bell system Col currently has is good, and will be even better with a few small fixes.

I'm enjoying the game more than ever, and remember... If there is a game mechanic that you feel is broken, or you don't like it... Then simply don't use it. ;)

-Aegore

"If you have a problem with this, simply don't do it..."

* You can do this for any exploit in any game, so I guess nothing ever needs to be patched.

"Not necessarily a broken game mechanic... Just because you can use that to increase sentiment;"

I just can't imagine being in the colonies and the government saying "hey not all of you agree with the revolt so we're going to kill half of you so we can start this revolution."


"With a bigger colony you're gonna be having a bigger military, better economy, trade, etc. than a smaller colony. - REF scales exponentionally on the size of your colony, so that doesnt necessarily mean a 'smaller' colony will have an easier time beating the king than a 'larger' colony if you play your cards right in both cases."

* Smaller colonies will always have an easier time winning; the problem is that the large REF takes forever to defeat (and in many cases if it's really really large, it bugs out.)

Not necessarily a broken game mechanic... Just because you can use that to increase sentiment; then again, players look for all methods to exploit the game. - If you have a problem with this, simply don't do it...

This sounds.... just like it came from one of the original beta-testers.

Hmm!

/sigh

It is not the end that is the reward but the path we take to get there. Everyone should do this once so they can say they 'beat' the game, fine, now play to have fun. Did you ALWAYS play Civ with the leader you know you can win with? No, you try different varieties of play for the challenge. Did you ever try an OCC? Yes, that is limiting your play not based on any game mechanic. I'll agree that there are exploits in this game, and they'll likely be addressed, but what you've described has no replay value, is fun once but it is the variety that makes Civ fun no?

/sigh

It is not the end that is the reward but the path we take to get there. Everyone should do this once so they can say they 'beat' the game, fine, now play to have fun. Did you ALWAYS play Civ with the leader you know you can win with? No, you try different varieties of play for the challenge. Did you ever try an OCC? Yes, that is limiting your play not based on any game mechanic. I'll agree that there are exploits in this game, and they'll likely be addressed, but what you've described has no replay value, is fun once but it is the variety that makes Civ fun no?

There's a problem with col2 that you practically can't lose regardless of difficulty, leader and regular or occ game because of the broken mechanics. All that is left is roleplaying, knowing all the while that you are artificially limiting yourself at every turn to give the king a chance.. well that's boring if you ask me.
If you play chess with a little kid and let him win, you might enjoy his happiness at winning but can you apply that sentiment to getting beat by the AI in a computer game because you didn't do what you knew was the right chocies to win? I suppose one could tell ones friends that you let the king win and they might say "that was magnanimous of you" if they don't play games and actually think "AI" is a correct description of the computer opponent and not merely a vastly exaggerated term. :p :crazyeye:

Wait... So being able to win the game early is a broken game mechanic?

Yes, for the reason that REF scales to your size. Higher population, more bells needed, bigger REF. Or the oppoisite. :D

I see that people disband units to increase the rebel sentiment, I find this cheap and unrealistic. How about a independence condition that depends both on total population AND percentage of rebel sentiment?

To reward/need bigger population to achieve independence.

There is in fact no need to disband people early. Just turn them into missionaries and send them off to the native settlements.

The real problem with the game is that the victory condition is not open ended. Unlike Civ4, where there are multiple routes to winning, the only goal here is defeat the REF.

As long as that is the case gameplay will inevitably degenerate into this type of strategy. Anything else is just roleplaying. That's fine if it's your thing, but a large part of the enjoyment from playing games for a lot of people is beating the game.

When I figured out that all you need is some money to buy troops and that 90% of the things the game lets you do are irrelevant I did exactly the same thing Turinurambar did - beat it twice on Rev and haven't played it since, probably never will again.

It isn't cheating, it's winning.

I don't think that the game can be patched in a comprehensive way to force people to use all of the game mechanics - increasing the size of the REF doesn't mean that now I have to build a trade network and start weaving serious cloth, it just means that I'd mine silver real quick and do the same thing. It'd just take longer to get the money you need.

isi is right. I feel that the best solution to make the game experience more complete is to introduce more victory conditions -- kill all the natives, destroy the other colonies or make your economy bigger than the home country's, and even then I'm not sure that would work.

Until then we'll just find the fastest route to get some cannons and goons.

I do appreciate that the game was priced below the going rate for a "complete" game at the store, but let's not kid ourselves into thinking the game is complete.

I don't think that the game can be patched in a comprehensive way to force people to use all of the game mechanics - increasing the size of the REF doesn't mean that now I have to build a trade network and start weaving serious cloth, it just means that I'd mine silver real quick and do the same thing. It'd just take longer to get the money you need.
I've lost a lot of faith in Firaxis as the result of this game... the mechanics need to be totally overhauled. What they released was incredibly under-par for a Sid Meier game.

I don't expect the patch to make the game fun come from Sid Meier - I expect it to come from the community.

[QUOTE=Turinturambar;7303050]Pick Simon Bolivar as your leader.

Turns 5-15: The caravel travels back to europe with Dragoons recruited from the dock. One of your recruit goes to the townhall, the other becomes a scout who explores in the opposite direction from your ex-pioneer. The remaining horses and muskets get sold to the indians.
/QUOTE]


I can't see where to purchase/recruit dragoons on the dock. I can see cannons for 500. I can't even find dragoons in the colonizapedia...

That's because Dragoon is profesion, not unit type.

You can to buy veteran soliders in europe and then equip them with horses to get dragoons.

I've lost a lot of faith in Firaxis as the result of this game... the mechanics need to be totally overhauled. What they released was incredibly under-par for a Sid Meier game.

I don't expect the patch to make the game fun come from Sid Meier - I expect it to come from the community.You weren't around for the release of any of the Civ4 expansions were you? They were all buggy/unbalanced at release a patch or two later and they're great.

I can't see where to purchase/recruit dragoons on the dock. I can see cannons for 500. I can't even find dragoons in the colonizapedia...

Double click on a colonist on the docks in Europe. You'll get an option menu to pick upgrade them to pioneer/missionary/soldier/dragoon based on the current cost of the goods.

I've only beaten this once on explorer. I've played about 15 games or something now on conquistador and can't best it. I think the problem seems to be that I usually have like 10 cities and conquer most of the AI (I simply cannot abide them getting founding fathers - and they always seem to take ones I want). My populations are usually very large.

What happens is I'm always about 50 turns too late. It takes forever to generate enough rebel sentiment to be ready for the king - but when I start earlier than this, the REF is too big for me to handle.

I wish the game rewarded you for having a smoothly running, highly efficient money making empire rather than punish you.

I'll still be playing though, I love colonization.

You weren't around for the release of any of the Civ4 expansions were you? They were all buggy/unbalanced at release a patch or two later and they're great.
All of them. They had bugs, but their core mechanics worked well enough (though I didn't really like how spies worked due to the level of micromanagement needed).

The problem with Col is that their core mechanics are badly done.

The problem is that colonization is a game about building and economy, yet the game is easiest to win around turn 70-100. Early in the game (because of scouting and trading with natives) you get a big boast of money. This money should be used to bootstrap your economy, instead it is better to use the money to arm your colonists. Since the REF scales you are hurt if you try to build a self-sufficent nation.

The suggestion of giving the REF bigger numbers early, but less increases, seems like it would make for a more challenging game where you would have to build up your economy before DoI - how hard could that be?

The suggestion of giving the REF bigger numbers early, but less increases, seems like it would make for a more challenging game where you would have to build up your economy before DoI - how hard could that be?
Because you'd still need to execute your own specialists in order to be able to rebel, which doesn't make sense on a whole lot of different levels. (I mean, wouldn't they be more pissed at you, instead of the king?)

I'm beginning to think that the problem from a 'bigger picture' view is that the two elements of the game don't have anything to do with one another.

There's the economic sim - training people, making a trade network, etc... Then there's the military War for Independence.

By definition the only thing that matters is the WoI - that's how you win/complete the game. But 90% of the game's options/mechanics/things-you-can-do is about the economic sim - which is at best irrelevant and at worst actually hinders your ability to win.

I'm beginning to think that the problem from a 'bigger picture' view is that the two elements of the game don't have anything to do with one another.

There's the economic sim - training people, making a trade network, etc... Then there's the military War for Independence.

By definition the only thing that matters is the WoI - that's how you win/complete the game. But 90% of the game's options/mechanics/things-you-can-do is about the economic sim - which is at best irrelevant and at worst actually hinders your ability to win.
Yeah, that's the problem precisely.

You can have a rockin' economy, but all that happens is that your treasury gets confiscated by the king, your income declines by 5% (through taxes) every time you make a major sale, and the price of the only real military unit you can buy (cannons) goes up by 5% every time you buy one. So there's no real point to having money in the game. At best, you can use the money to buy specialists, to make more money, to buy more specialists, but all this does is make it harder to rebel in the long run!

The whole game needs to be retooled.

The thing is that the two should match up as the economy gives you money, which you should have to use to build an army. But you're never likely to make enough money to buy very many soldiers or SoL's, and after your fifth or sixth cannon or SoL, you can probably make them in your colonies for a much lesser cost.


Ideally, if the game was being redesigned from the ground up, I'd propose some sort of maintainance system, where your soldiers needed supplies and salaries provided to them, making the creation of a stable and diverse economy was well as a financial warchest a prerequisite to declaring independence.

The main problem is that the game has no variety. If you do not exploit then the best way to win is to get early scout to visit all indian villages first and then get all goody huts. It gives you a nice economy boost. The next phase is to get n*3 elder statemen(n = number of colonies). And when you have your statemen then you push up your Rebels. And to hurry it up you need to execute all less needed guys to fasten the first goal(50% Rebel sentiments). Of course I collect to each city full capacity of horses and muskets to convert them dragoons when the time is right. Also if I have enough money I have a ship in docks to transport some dragoons who were made after DoI but before the king arrives to America. The other strategies do not work well. Once I beat king's navy but that was luck that he didn't add Man-o-Wars.

In Col1 There were more strategies. You could have Rebel% high in early game to enjoy better production but now it is not a good idea.

Also I don't like that the other europeans are so weak. They usually build up a huge empire and when they DoI their king easily takes all his colonies and the game for him is over.

All of them. They had bugs, but their core mechanics worked well enough (though I didn't really like how spies worked due to the level of micromanagement needed).

The problem with Col is that their core mechanics are badly done.


Not sure I agree. The biggest problems with the game can be fixed in a few easy steps:

1. Make it so that Rebel Sentiment cannot be raised by loss of colonists.

2. Make the REF much larger to start the game.

3. Make the AI keep at least one soldier guarding every colony.

4. Make the foreign powers way more aggressive.

That would fix the biggest loopholes people are encountering.

And then I would add:

5. Increase the unit power of the REF.

6. Put the foreign offer for aid back in from Col I, and require a large number of liberty bells to make it achievable, making it incredibly difficult to win without a large enough set of Colonies to produce those kinds of Liberty Bells.

Not sure I agree. The biggest problems with the game can be fixed in a few easy steps:

1. Make it so that Rebel Sentiment cannot be raised by loss of colonists.
Like I said, the core mechanics need to change.

Mainly, I think LB production should have a cumulative effect. You should need X LBs to rebel, plus maybe a surcharge of +Y LBs per colonist you have. Then you can LB up slowly, or quickly, depending on your need, and it doesn't completely screw you over to have a large colony, while still making it harder to rebel and leading to an overall larger REF.

Having LB production be non-cumulative for DoI but cumulative for REF is brain-stabbingly stupid.

all i know is that when a decent patch comes out to fix the flaws in the game mechanics and balance things a little better, someone like me who's just played the game through for what it is will be alot better equipped to whupp its ass on the hardest setting than some cheating schmucks who play the game for 40 turns just to exploit the broken parts ;) peace out

Because you'd still need to execute your own specialists in order to be able to rebel, which doesn't make sense on a whole lot of different levels. (I mean, wouldn't they be more pissed at you, instead of the king?)

The specialists are representatives of the monarchy sent to protect the investment of the monarchy. That is why killing them gains rebel sympathies. It is seen as an act of war (independence?).

il you try using your elder statemen early, pehaps you would have see theirs advantages instead of the ref....

move them along with 2 carpenters to build faster your factories (convert are better than lumberjack when you are low on gold)

you build faster, you get your ff faster, you get strong enough to revolt faster!!

and the ref won't be twice as bug than if you had wait

you only need a elder statemen and the 3 specialists in a factorie, import everything, and you'll get an insane production whithout generating much bells

I thought I would try this out of interest. Didnt get past your turn 5-15 section of the scenario;
1. I had no tools to sell only guns?
2. I could not find any dragoons to purchase only veteran soldiers?

What am I missing?

Tony

I was good enough to lose.

I got 7 cannons, 100% bells and two dragoons. Tried to defend sneak into the jungles and then counter attack, but my city was razed and I lost my bell-bonus. I loaded and tried to defend my colony but they outnumbered me.

Does this really work and I'm just plain stupid or this is just a math-probability strategy that won't guarantee victory, instead it will just increase your odds a little and you got to try until you win?

Double click a guy on the docks in Europe to equip them with tools, guns, horses, or guns/horses.

I just played this and won without deleting any colonists though I did send one off to found a mission with a native village. The main divergence from the basic strategy for me was being aggressive about selling guns/horses to several different native nations to raise a lot of cash. I didn't have much luck with treasures with my scout and only got about 1200 gold combined from two. Once I got Peter I bought a galleon, loaded it up with cannons and more guns/horses and made a few trips back and forth with my caravel doing the same with guns/horses to visit natives. I first built a stockade and then rushed a printing press after that to increase bell production. Once the printing press finished I switched to producing military points though I never had anyone working in the carpenter shop. If I recall I got the FF with +25% settlement defense before independence.

I think when I declared independence it was around turn 43 and had 50% rebel sentiment. I had my galleon and caravel in my town with some extra guns/horses. I chose all men are free and equipped the indentured servants and some other colonists. Then I fortified them in town along with my 10 or so cannon. I was slightly outnumbered but since the REF could only land half their forces I had the edge vs each wave. My dragoons ended up dying which raised my rebel sentiment to 100% or near it and then it was over quick as my cannon mopped up the remaining REF.

I won the game in 1546 AD with a score of 388 and normalized score of 5363.

... The biggest problems with the game can be fixed in a few easy steps:

1. Make it so that Rebel Sentiment cannot be raised by loss of colonists.
2. Make the REF much larger to start the game.
3. Make the AI keep at least one soldier guarding every colony.
4. Make the foreign powers way more aggressive.


I like these ideas because they can be used to reflect the true history of the period (at least for the British-USA experience. I'm not sure how this plays out in terms of the Spanish or Portuguese experience in S. America).

Starting with #4 - "Aggressive Foreigners" The French and Indian War was the primary "trigger" of the independence movement in the British colonies (USA - not Canada). The Brits had to send over a large REF to fight off the French and their Indian allies, and then had to raise taxes in the colonies to pay for this costly war. The "ungrateful" colonists turned around and bit the hand that had saved them from the French (or at least that's how it seemed to the British). It was the taxation thing that drove the rebellion (seems like its always about the pocketbook!).

Make the other powers declare war on each other
Then have the "mother country" send over a small REF to intervene
Then have the King raise taxes through the roof to pay for his war of protection


#3 - "Keeping Small REF in the Colonies" This makes sense - have the King keep a small REF around once the colonies reach a certain size. Quartering soldiers on the local population (making citizens pay to house and feed Royal troops) also raises rebellious feelings.

#1 - "Deleting Citizens" You could consider this as banishment and not outright murder. Send all those Tories back to Halifax! Kick them out of Boston (or New York...). Allow the player to banish a unit which sends it back to the homeland, or sends them off to a loyal colony.

I used to play the original version for weeks and weeks. It was never about winning the game then, it was all about setting up the largest and most self sufficient colonial nation possible. It was "just one more colony over there to grab that silver...oh, I need some more cotton so just one more over there"...and so on until 3 AM and now I need to think up some good excuse to skip going to the office!

[Go Hokies!]

Greetings,

I see I'm not the only one somewhat disappointed with the 'scope' of the game :(

Some things I would like to see addressed which I think would benefit the over-all arc of the game...

1. Random events/quests.

I know they do this in civ so it should be no big deal. Say...sell 1000 furs to europe in x # turns; get a merchantman.

2. Trade with natives for scouts,warriors

The native angle is pretty good now...but they should go back to the graphic of the !!! from green to red and allow you to trade with the indians for braves/converts

3.Need I say...europeon powers are sad. They don't even play to their supposed strengths

Well here's hoping...I'll pick up the game again once theres a mod or patch thats suitable for the great strategy that this should be.

....or when I get tired of Fallout3 :lol:

I like these ideas because they can be used to reflect the true history of the period (at least for the British-USA experience. I'm not sure how this plays out in terms of the Spanish or Portuguese experience in S. America).

Well, I can pretty much say that there were no war for independence in Brazil.

It'd be pointless to, you modders out there, add Portugal Colonies in this game, unless there's some way to buy your independence.

This is not a very bad idea tho, but it doens't belong to this thread.

I was good enough to lose.

I got 7 cannons, 100% bells and two dragoons. Tried to defend sneak into the jungles and then counter attack, but my city was razed and I lost my bell-bonus. I loaded and tried to defend my colony but they outnumbered me.

Does this really work and I'm just plain stupid or this is just a math-probability strategy that won't guarantee victory, instead it will just increase your odds a little and you got to try until you win?

It depends a bit on the initial city placement. If the city is placed in a way that the king is forced to make lots of amphibious assaults, it's bad for you since the penalty for attacking from sea is only 20%, and the king's troops gets an insane attack bonus. Usually the king will do only very few amphibious attacks though and winning land fights is not a problem.

Of course with combat decided by randomness, winning is not guaranteed, but it's very likely to win using this strategy.

You can go for a faster win with the dutch(turn 33 is my best), due to starting with a merchantmen, but you need a lot more luck winning the WoI

Not necessarily a broken game mechanic... Just because you can use that to increase sentiment; then again, players look for all methods to exploit the game. - If you have a problem with this, simply don't do it...

For those of us that picked it up to see if it is as fun to play multiplayer as Civ4:BTS, it is broken. If you don't do it, you loose.

I used this on a "try it once, then get back to playing the game" and I had a few problems. Strategically, I think I had one too many colonists which delayed things by a turn or two. The first problem was that when I deleted colonists I deleted all of them (except one in town, 3 dragoons, and 6 cannon) and it only brought me up to about 62% rebel sentiment. I declared on turn 35, and the REF arrived on Turn 37.

The first wave of the REF was scary as there were more of them than there were of me. I beat them, losing 1 dragoon and 2 cannons. I was nervous about facing the remaining 11 units with my 6 units. 50 turns later I was frustrated as the Men of War sailed back and forth in front of my town, doing nothing since I had no fortifications.

Somewhere around Turn 90 a quick save/reload jarred the REF into action, and the MoW sailed away. They returned with the remaining units and a desperate struggle ensued, coming down to 3 of my battered units against 3 of theirs. Two of my units survived for victory, around Turn 100. So much for 40 turns!

I decided to reload the Turn 35 position to see if the game would let me do better. This time the first wave left me with 3 dragoons and 3 cannon. The second wave never came. No matter how often I tried the quicksave/reload trick, or shutting down and relaunching the game, or moving units out and into the town, the ships just milled around in my coastal waters. Very frustrating.

I wonder if this would work better with the Snoopy/Dale PatchMod.

winning land fights is not a problem. Of course with combat decided by randomness, winning is not guaranteed, but it's very likely to win using this strategy.
In my sample size of about ten tries *with* a lot of reloading, it's not very likely to win at all. I won that first time and didn't realize how lucky I was, I never came close again.

The basic experience is that the first landing of the REF outnumbers the entire rebel army, and the rebel sentiment will start at about 75% and go down from there.

Most recent endgame:

Turn 34, deleted all units except for my veteran soldier, bringing the rebel percent up to 100%, declared, and chose "All Men are Free." The two new units immediately brought the percentage down to 75. Created two "indentured statesmen" so all 3 units are in the Town Hall.

Turn 35, percentage rose all the way to 76. <sigh> Now I mounted one of them and the vet to prepare for the invasion. I have 2 dragoons (1 vet) and 6 cannon, the REF has 10 infantry, 6 dragoons, and 4 artillery.

Turn 36, the REF lands 4 infantry, 4 dragoons, and 2 artillery, with 8 units on open ground on one side of town with 1 dragoon and 1 artillery in the woods on the other side. Percentage has dropped to 71. I attacked the units in the open, killing 2 infantry, 3 dragoons, and 1 artillery while losing 2 cannon. All my other units are wounded.

Turn 37, percentage is down to 66 and the REF attacks, destroying all 4 cannon and mangling the dragoons. 3 of the 4 REF units are completely undamaged. I have the choice of throwing my horses onto their bayonets or waiting to be massacred in the town. RIP.

Note that the REF didn't even need amphibious assaults to inflict this disaster.

Something strange is happening in your games that rebel percentage drops below 100 percent. Do you put everyone to work on bells all the time and make sure that no settlers are left on the docks in europe?
And are you playing with any mods?

In my games the two indentured servants you get never lowered my rebel sentiment below 100%. Of course if your units get only a 32 percent bonus instead of a 100 percent bonus winning the war requires a lot of luck, but in my games I always had the full 100 percent bonus. You might try deleting an indentured servant and only fight with cannons.

Maybe I'll give it another go. In one game there was someone left on the docks in Europe. I don't think I could delete him there so another caravel trip would have been required, giving the King several more turns to reinforce his goons. I think that only happened once. Yes, everyone was at work on bells all the time except once the REF was active.

8 tries were un-modded, the last two used the Snoopy/Dale PatchMod.

It does seem to be best to put the town more than 5 tiles from "Europe" so the REF can't assault the town directly the first turn on the map, but ampib assaults weren't my problem.

[Edit] OK, gave it another go, and it worked like a charm *without* deleting the town populace...because I got an Elder Statesman on the docks. On Turn 33 I deleted the caravels and the scouts, retaining my vet soldier, elder statesman, and lumberjack in the town of Flashinthepan. The percent went right up to 100% (and was 82% prior to the deletions). So I declared independence but kept slavery, not needing the manpower. REF: 11/5/6.

T35 the REF landed 3 units 5 tiles away in a native village (?), and on T36 8 more units landed adjacent to my town...and died. None of my units was worse than 2.0/3. On T39 the three strays walked up...and died, giving me a general.

T43 the second wave appears, once again landing 3 units over in Teotihuacan (good rum?). The other 8 units land adjacent on T44 and my sallies killed 7 of 8, losing one cannon. The 8th died attacking the town on T45. On T47 the last 3 REF units could have moved adjacent, but instead re-embarked on a Man-o-War. However, on T48 they landed again, and died. Finish date 1540, normalized score 10,746 (Revolutionary/Normal/Standard). The game would have taken fewer than 45 turns if all the units had landed adjacent to my town.

Proof of concept! Thanks, Turinturambar.

Turns 25-35:
Once you get Minuit, buy a second caravel and cannons in Europe. You should be able to buy ~6 cannons and 100 muskets/horses. Once your caravels are back in the new world, delete all your colonists until you have 100% rebel sentiment. Declare independence, pick all men are free and the bell-enhancing civics. Your veteran soldier and one of the indentured servants become dragoons. With 6 cannons and 2 dragoons sporting a +100% combat bonus defeating the Royal Expedition force is trivial.

I tried this proposed combat and did not find it to be "trivial". *(I was in quick game speed mode and playing rev diff.)

I do not question your strategy worked for you. I just do not know what you did to make it work during the combat phase

the king will come ashore with 9 units and you only have 8. hence each matchup must count. you need to at least wipe out all the dragoons and artillery in attacks you make from inside your city during the first combat round

cannons do only one thing "well", bombard a settlement to reduce its defenses 12% per turn. in that your strategy does not involve losing your only (coastal) city, I found the six cannons to be worthless in comparison to dragoons when attacking REF Vet 2 Dragoons and (unpromoted) Artillery (the bulk of the landing force) from inside the city

"2 dragoons sporting a +100% combat bonus"??? my dragoons can get up to a 50% bonus from rebel sentiment (100% - LB rate for colony, not city) which is larger than the Vet 2 promoted dragoons, but the combat odds around 78%, not infallible

Civ 4 Col unlike Col 1 does not allow you to pack up your tent and leave a colony empty (that does not have a stockade). given that fact would it have been feasible to have built an inland second city with a fort on defensive terrain to force artillery by themselves to reduce the city defenses without the help of the ships? in that case you would have to wait until the first city was captured to get your colony LB rate up to the desired 100%

in another game I tried abandoning the coastal city and moving inland about five tiles as soon as the King landed in the first wave. strangely enough it took the REF quite a few turns to show up inland and also to hunt down on the open seas my now departed caravel and merchantman. enough time for the inland city that if I had had more than one colonists to get my liberty bell rate up I might have got up to 100% LB rate. (in that game I only had one dragoon and 6 cannons left when I departed the coastal city)

--------------

in summary I would have been better off spending the cannon money on buying vet soldiers at the dock

what is the advantage of your strategy (which I could not make work) versus having 8+vet soldier dragoons fighting the REF instead?

or taking the time to get those 8+ vet soldier dragoons promoted to at least Vet 2 fighting natives or Europeans? (in which case San Martin would be a better leader due to double XP rate for combat units)

btw I found out the hard way a stockade and fort are worthless for a one coastal city strategy such as you outline since the King's warships will wipe out your fleet (if it ventures out of port) then bombard the city's defenses to zero in only a few turns. the King is also likely after the first wave to try amphibious attack of units from his ships, one of which wiped out one of my cannons (which are much weaker units than dragoons inside cities)

the only improvements useful for a coastal city in 40 turns are the dock (to help with food problem) and a warehouse (or wagon trains) to store excess guns and horses (bought in Europe). if you had more time a printing press and newspaper would be useful, as would be buying an Elder Statesman form the dock

I think when I declared independence it was around turn 43 and had 50% rebel sentiment.

I had my galleon and caravel in my town with some extra guns/horses. I chose all men are free and equipped the indentured servants and some other colonists. Then I fortified them in town along with my 10 or so cannon. I was slightly outnumbered but since the REF could only land half their forces I had the edge vs each wave. My dragoons ended up dying which raised my rebel sentiment to 100% or near it and then it was over quick as my cannon mopped up the remaining REF.

I won the game in 1546 AD with a score of 388 and normalized score of 5363.
I am amazed you had so much success with the minimal LB rate of 50% meaning your initial set of defending troups had no combat bonus comparable to the Vet 2 promotions of the King's dragoons

I do not question your strategy worked for you. I just do not know what you did to make it work during the combat phase...what is the advantage of your strategy (which I could not make work) versus having 8+vet soldier dragoons fighting the REF instead?

Worked for me too after a few tries and some mistakes like leaving someone on the docks in Europe.

The advantage is getting a victory in under 50 turns (and apparently Turinturambar has achieved under 40). As T. said, this is an exploit of the game system.

Having 8+ vet soldier dragoons (with vet being unnecessary) is a different approach that does not have the goal of an ultra-early victory. Of course that force has a better chance of defeating an REF of reasonable size, and would be overkill against the tiny REF of Turinturambar's strategy.

Keep trying and it will work for you. Don't place your town close enough to Europe for amphibious assault. Get that 100% rebel sentiment and keep it there. Note from my game that the REF does not always land more than 8 units next to your city.

Having 8+ vet soldier dragoons (with vet being unnecessary) is a different approach that does not have the goal of an ultra-early victory. Of course that force has a better chance of defeating an REF of reasonable size, and would be overkill against the tiny REF of Turinturambar's strategy.

Keep trying and it will work for you. Don't place your town close enough to Europe for amphibious assault. Get that 100% rebel sentiment and keep it there. Note from my game that the REF does not always land more than 8 units next to your city.
the vet soldiers cost more than the cannons and so it might a few more turns to get say 6 of them and two cannons. but your combat odds go up dramatically

unsure about your comments regarding amphibious attack. most posters say to make your settlement as close to Europe (3 tiles) as you can so that your ships can get to the docks faster. what does distance from Europe have to do with the likelihood of amphibious attack? they did not attack me that until the second wave, but I have read posters who say they tried it on the first wave

I currently am in the midst not of a 40 turn game, but one in which all my dragoons are highly promoted. it remains to be seen it I can figure out a way to get the LB rate up high enough for that additional advantage since I have many cities. will try to build a fortress in an inland city. that ought to make it very hard for the artillery to have time to succeed

joelwest

The key to Turinturambar's strategy is reducing the population to precisely one to raise the rebel sentiment to 100%, then convert the two instant indentured servants to dragoons, so you can't have more than two. Cannons don't count as population so they don't drag down your percentage. The sole goal is to win in minimum time.

That's why yours is a completely different approach. Not only does it take longer and cost more gold to generate and equip more dragoons, it takes longer and costs more LB to generate 100% rebel sentiment (not that you need it for your purposes).

In my limited experience, when I place the town within 4 of the European zone I am much more likely to get blitzed by an amphibious assault (in the first wave). If they get to shoot first in this strategy it's a bad thing.

"2 dragoons sporting a +100% combat bonus"[/I]??? my dragoons can get up to a 50% bonus from rebel sentiment (100% - LB rate for colony, not city) which is larger than the Vet 2 promoted dragoons, but the combat odds around 78%, not infallible


Do you pick Bolivar as the leader? Because he gets (LB rate for the colony-50)*2 . Of course with only 50% Bonus it's rather hard(but doable with a bit of luck).
The cannons shine when the king stupidly decides to land his troops in the indian settlement (he does that often) next to your colony. You will get a 100% city attack bonus even though it's an indian village. But even in the open the cannon should have a 62% win percentage or higher if I remember correctly.

Nevermind, point I was making already made in other replies.

Thanks for posting this thread! It took several tries to find just the right map to make it work (because both food supply and terrain which doesn't provide too much cover seems to make enough difference, at least for me anyway). It wasn't clear to me so it took some experimenting. Like when I rebelled, I had 3 people producing bells, then got the 2 indentured servants, both of which I just killed, because I one person producing bells (and he was luckily a statesman), while the other 2 became dragoons.

This is really nice! After so many tries and so much frustration playing the game normally (and I'm new enough that it's still very difficult even at easy levels), this was pretty cool.

I am confused by the original post about getting dragoons from the docks - that made no sense whatsoever. Also, instead of keeping the soldier in town as per the original post, I sent him out so he got more XP from the natives.

I am confused by the original post about getting dragoons from the docks - that made no sense whatsoever.
Assuming you have the cash, you can convert any unit on the docks to a dragoon (or soldier, pioneer, missionary) before shipping them over.

Thanks! It's too bad that many options don't appear as "greyed out" to make it more obvious when something would have been available if you had more money. It would make the game much easier to learn, rather than having stuff just invisible when there's not enough cash.

<edit> Oops. I just noticed I need to double-click the guy on the dock to select what I want him changed to.

With 6 cannons and 2 dragoons sporting a +100% combat bonus defeating the Royal Expedition force is trivial.

I tried this too. Got my 6 can, 2 drags, 100% rebel sentiment.

King has 11 soldiers, 4 drags, 5 cannons, 5 ships.

Turn 37, Wave #1, King landed 5 sold, 3 drag, 2 can, with 3 MoW to bombard the city.
my 6+2 get wiped on the first wave.

Does it matter that my city is on grassland (4 food as required by this strategy), and that its surrounded by +50% def forests?

If I stay in city to def I get wiped. If I attack my adjacent squares I get wiped.

I failz.

If I stay in city to def I get wiped. If I attack my adjacent squares I get wiped.

Win! Ok the combat takes careful reading of unit description text, that all the king's units have insane bonuses when attacking a city.

So the key was to attack first against any king's army units adjacent to my city, and avoid any offensive attack against my city square.

Score 449 --> 7098 normalized @1538 AD Turn 47.

How to Win a Cultural Victory in "Civilization Revolution" for the Xbox 360

1.) Build settler units early. When your capitol city reaches a level three population, build a settler unit. Do this until you have created at least four or five cities. Having several cities will substantially increase the likelihood that Great People will appear in your cities.

2.) Increase population. Because cities with greater populations will yield the most culture points, begin researching technologies that will increase population once you have settled four or five cities. Build granaries, aqueducts, and harbors in cities that have deficient food production and consider setting your cities' priorities to "Food" by accessing the City Screen and selecting "Manage Workers."

3.) Build temples and cathedrals in every city. Having a temple and a cathedral in every city will increase the city's culture based upon its population and will increase the number of Great People that arrive in your cities. The temple, which costs 40 production points, will give you a culture point for every population point you have. A cathedral yields two culture points for every population point you have.

4.) Build Wonders and hoard Great People. Some of the Wonders most useful in your quest to win a cultural victory are the Hanging Gardens Wonder, Stonehenge Wonder, and the Magna Carta Wonder. The Hanging Gardens Wonder will increase city population by 50 percent. The Stonehenge Wonder increases by 50 percent the culture points produced from temples, until an opponent discovers literacy. If you have a courthouse in a city, the Magna Carta Wonder will make courthouses produce culture points. When Great People begin to arrive in your cities, settle them. Hold on to ones that arrive in a city that doesn't need the special bonus that comes with the Great Person and wait to settle them in a city that needs the bonus.

5.) Build a wall to protect your cities from conversion. As your culture increases, the cities of nearby civilizations will soon convert to your civilization. Be sure to build walls in these cities, as well as in your original cities that are close to opposing civilizations, to protect these cities from converting back to your opposition's civilization.

6.) Build the United Nations Wonder. As soon as you have acquired 20 Great People, Wonders, or converted cities, an adviser will notify you that you can now build the United Nations Wonder to win a cultural victory. Remember, your opponents will know that you are building the United Nations Wonder and will attack you in hopes of preventing your win. Once enough turns have passed to complete the construction of the United Nations Wonder, you will win the game.

How to Win a Cultural Victory in "Civilization Revolution" for the Xbox 360

Wrong forum.

Win! Ok the combat takes careful reading of unit description text, that all the king's units have insane bonuses when attacking a city.

So the key was to attack first against any king's army units adjacent to my city, and avoid any offensive attack against my city square.

Score 449 --> 7098 normalized @1538 AD Turn 47.

Congratulations on your win. :goodjob:

And Welcome to the Forums. :beer:

I hadn't tried this for a while and felt like having a mind candy experience. The first try was a reminder of the importance of terrain (i.e. I got hosed). In other words, there was good defensive terrain for the REF so I got badly chewed up trying to attack. It also took more turns than planned basically because the natives preferred to give maps instead of money, and treasures were found too far away to cash them in.

The second time was successful, but I'm reminded that things don't work quite as explained. I got off to a fast start and declared on Turn 28 or 29. I had surplus cash so I had a third caravel loaded with cannon en route when I declared, but it got sunk en route...my only losses. The REF started with 9/5/5 (Infantry/Dragoons/Artillery) and landed 9 units on Turn 30 with most of the units in the adjacent native village, making them cannon fodder, with three units in light forest. My 2 dragoons and 6 cannon went 8 for 8, leaving one soldier. That one didn't attack, but moved into jungle, where I killed it. So by Turn 32 the REF was down to 3/2/5. Then the Royal Navy milled around for a while, so the next time I got to fight them was Turn 42, after which they had 0/0/2. The stray artillery landed two tiles away on Turn 43 and died on Turn 44.

So what doesn't work quite as explained? To maintain 100% I had to leave the two indentured servants in the town hall, then convert them to dragoons and attack after the REF landed. After the first wave I forgot and left them as dragoons, by the time I noticed this (about Turn 40) I was down to 71%. I hastily put them back in the town hall, so when the second wave landed I was back to 80%. That proved adequate, but my units did take more damage from fighting the second wave. Since I left the dragoons while waiting for the last two artillery, my percentage dropped to 74 by the end. [This would have been harder with PatchMod, because that prevents attacks by instant dragoons. This would flatly not work with AoD II because the starting REF is triple the size, though it grows more slowly...I'm curious what my fastest could be there. Buying (say) 18 cannon would be prohibitive!]

Anyway, I enjoyed this exploitation as a change of pace. If the second wave had been quicker this could have been *really* fast. As it was, I finished in 1536 with a normalized score of 7790 (Revolutionary, Standard, Normal, Patch).

Well done. I'll have to give this a try sometime just to get a good score on the board. Most of my games on Revolutionary last me a week and I don't finish until 1720 or so with only half your score. Mind you, I do enjoy those games.

Well, that score screams "Exploit!" but it's fun to pull it off. Took me about ten tries originally, this time only two. [It's really annoying sometimes to do a normal game and get a score like 300. Doesn't really matter, but after a lot of effort...]

That's more or less what I do anyway with any civ, except I aim for independence by turn 100 or so since I usually need 150-200 turns to insure I have enough time to kill off the troops. At turn 100, the total REF troop size (infantry + dragoons + artillery) is about 30. I imagine it is about half that at turn 50. Not much difference tactically at either low troop level. I usually go with 6 cities though because I usually also conquer the one or two competing civs before declaring independence.

hi brothers in arms ...
after patch it not works anymore ... :(
turn 40 rebel feelings in the Getlivar City 66% ...
at global count only 11 % ...
i could'nt start a revolution ...
back to the old ways ...:cry::cry::cry: