Hello kind and wise friends, can anyone answer this question for me please?

Does anyone know of any reference to Werewolves in Erebus changing shape? It seems (from the game and what Lord I can find) that they are 'stuck' in that hybrid form of man and wolf- and even the Baron himself seems the same. Also, werewolves only appear when they have been killed- so they don't seem to be the person they once were. Have they died? Do they remember their former lives or are they a beast that knows nothing of their former selves?

I believe that (most of) Erebus's Werewolves do indeed change shape. The graphics for Duin and the werewolves he spawns are static, but that is because it would be way too hard to have them change. In Kael's D&D campaign I doubt that Duin could have been a spy on the "overcouncil" (probably not the same as the overcouncil in the game, but it was a council of the good guys against Tebryn et alii) or had an affair with Varn Gossam's wife.


Hati dreamed of her mother. Her mother had stroked her fur and told her how special she was, though she looked at her in pity. Told her of her two fathers: the one, a simple farmer and her mother's husband; the second, a stranger, last of an aristocratic line with a terrible secret.

While Hati was growing in the womb of her mother, she had been infected with Lycanthropy. Her mother, the last werewolf, could change forms at will, but Hati was from birth onward wrapped in the skin of the wolf. Human society was closed to them, but the disease brought gifts as well as curses, and mother and daughter tracked prey effortlessly through the snow, everyday a feast in the midst of famine.

Late in the Age of Ice, Hati hunts alone, any link to humanity severed by the death of her mother.


It also appears from this entry that werewolves do indeed have memories of their former lives. I'd suspect that the hunger overwhelms their thoughts and memories when they first change into ravenous werewolves, but that when they matured and come to accept who and what they have become their memories of their old life

I don't think that those infected by lycanthropy have died from it. In Gilden's entry we see one man transformed into a werewolf before he had time to even hit the ground after being hit by a werewolf's claw. Death would take longer than that, imho.



I believe that the "stranger, last of an aristocratic line with a terrible secret" is the Baron, who had died but was resurrected in the Age of Rebirth. His entry implied that the lycanthropy was an unexpected side effect of the rituals that brought him back to life, but this implies that he and maybe his family had long had but been hiding the disease. He was described as being a cannibal in his last life already.

What's the Hati Entry, in the Age of Ice Civilopedia? That made it quite clear really (especially the part you put in bold) and it's also good to know that Guilden's entry shows how quickly they change-- but whether or not they're now just animals isn't so clear.
I like that we can assume they change shape, and in terms of the game it wouldn't make any sense or difference- Werewolves are animals and they'd not really gain anything from changing into a wolf pack or back to what they were (and of course would be insanely overpowered if they were able to revert to their previous form, complete with promotions)

The Baron is a nasty piece of work anyway but his history is so ambigious that you just can't be sure- and he's a beast and not an animal right? He gets very different promotions than the regular werewolves he spawns.

I suppose the biggest thing that has swayed me is thinking about his affair with Varns wife-- she's hardly likely to jump into bed with a wolf is she? ... so I can accept he must change form.... but still... he's not the same as regular werewolves. Thanks for the lore quotes, I'm not 100% convinced they'd retain their former selves BUT they stay with your civ so they keep their alignment (good werewolves fighing for the Elohim for example) so there must be something to that.... then again if they didn't stay with your civ there wouldn't be much point to spawning them would there?

gah! I'm just going round in circles here! :)

Hati is a barbarian werewolf hero from the Age of Ice scenario, which Kael and the team made and was included with BtS. (In this prequel scenario, you (as Kyorlin) lead the Amurites to slay Mulcarn and end the age of ice, beginning the Age of Rebirth, when the main mod occurs.) The Hati entry is her entry in the civilopedia in this scenario.


I believe that the Baron is still unitcombat_animal in the main mod, although I tend to change him to a beast since it so annoying to have enemy rangers steal him.


There is probably a difference between "retaining their selves" and retaining memories of their life before lycanthropy. The disease would change their minds and personalty to make them irrational, bloodthirsty, and always filled with rage. Aeron's sphere dominates them completely. They would have more hatred for those who let them fall to the werewolves that for their new family. By the time they are satiated enough to think rationally they would have killed all their old loved ones and would be too ashamed to rejoin their old community.

Re: Hati-- played that scenario a few times and never came across it- I seem to have missed something!
You are spot on though- the Baron infected Hati's mother-- it's pretty clear it's him the text refers to, and if Hati's mother can change therefore so can regular werewolves-- poor Hati may the the only one that can't

The need to feed is pretty clear- and if they don't then they go totally wild and leave your civ, but they don't feed on anything right away. I mean their hunger can drive them over the edge after a little while but even then they're looking to eat your enemies rather than you.

You are, of course, right about the Baron being an animal-- my rangers captured him back many times when I once played the Scions mod-- those haunted lands injured him and sent him barb and my guys kept on recapturing as he turned feral on me!

I've really looked hard though to see if they can go from full man to full wolf- because wouldn't it just be wonderful if you could make your own units werewolves--- and I'll level with you why-- I think it really suits the Doviello and I just wished that their berserkers or battlemasters could be werewolves as well as what they usually are. I know it would totally lack balance and people already send out cries to nerf the Baron but the Doviello would really embrace this aspect- especially with the links to wolves and the use of wolf packs... my ideas came unraveled when I thought that the Erebus werewolves didn't seem to be the typical man who changes on a full moon but seemed far more feral and bloodthirsty- far less human.

BTW, in Gilden Silveric's Civilopedia entry it is definitely revealed that werewolves can change form, as it describes the Baron switching form to slaughter a ravenous werewolf who tried to kill him. I'm not sure that the Baron is Hati's father though; wasn't he just resurrected with Lycanthropy in the Age of Rebirth, after Hati died?

but read the Hati entry MC put in above-- aristocrat with a dark secret seems to be the Baron we all know and love.

Clearly I need to read Gilden's entry again. I can totally accept the baron can change- so I suppose that's enough evidence to say the things he infects can too.

The static graphics have been bugging me too, mostly in the Baron's case since he is shown as not only being able to change, but also being able to do so almost effortlessly and quickly (also, his art in the Civilopedia is that of an armoured human; it also looks somehow much more appropriate than some overgrown barechested wolfman). I suppose it is too difficult, though. Still, maybe it would be better to make the Baron look human, with possible exceptions for attack animations (in line with the story, from what I recall of it)?

Elves don't enjoy battle, but Gilden is different. From a young age, he studied the animals of the forest and how they attacked. The elves never trained with anything other than a bow, but Gilden practiced with long knives, attacking, stabbing, recoiling until his movements became as fluid as a tiger's.

He never told anyone about his practicing, often traveling miles away from the village so that no one would see him. It was after one of these trips that he returned to find the city under attack.

Werewolves, dozens of them, attacked the city. Gilden was familiar with their movements; they were like wild wolves, jumping easily from victim to victim, raking claws knocking bows aside, teeth biting through elven flesh. The ones that attacked originally were tall and powerfully built, but Gilden could already see gaunt brown werewolves rising from the elven bodies. The new werewolves were born starving, and they quickly joined the older werewolves in the attack, tearing into elves to satisfy their need.

A human walked through the battle; he had a cudgel at his side, and he wore a thick gold brooch and an embroidered dark blue cloak. He was dressed like a nobleman, although from his build and stride it was obvious that he was also a warrior. The werewolves grew even more ferocious as the man watched; he commanded a few toward hidden elves or to help in places where elves were trying to mount a defense. A new born werewolf, blinded by its own hunger, made the mistake of attacking him. He became a werewolf so fast he seemed to live in both forms at once. His claw hit the young werewolf on the side of his face, removing his left ear, jaw, and most of the newborn werewolf's throat.

Gilden had trained most of his life for this. An elf who enjoyed warfare was now witness to his people's attack, but he was already too late. Maybe if he had arrived an hour before there would have been a chance to kill them before so many new werewolves were born. Maybe if the man wasn't here. Gilden would fight them, but not here; he had a lot more training to do. So he turned his back on the fighting, left the village and his people's screams behind him. They would be avenged, but not today.

Either I didn't remember Gilden's entry very well of it has changed. I though that the man was just another victim who was quickly infected, but it seems that this man was actually the werewolves leader, Baron Duin Halfmorn, who was leading the attack in human form so as to have better control of his mental faculties to formulate strategy and tactics for the lesser werewolves to follow. He then changed to his bestial form to punish the nwerewolf who was stupid enough to challenge his Alpha.

Duin was a fearsome warlord during the Age of Magic. He hosted lavish banquets after his victories, where he and his generals feasted on the bodies of the captured opponents. His generals' ambition grew to match his own and they turned on him in a bloody civil war. Duin won the war but lost his empire; in the end, he sat alone, feasting on his generals' bodies.

Like all mortals, even the horrific Duin passed away, but he would not be allowed to sleep forever. In time of dire need, desperate mages performed rites to bring back the greatest, most feared general of history. But it was not without price: the gods knew of Duin's character, and would not suffer him to be raised back to life without an appropriate form.

Werewolves had not been seen in the world since the Age of Ice. Hardly possessed with the same mental faculties as vampires, the werewolves truly were hunted to extinction by the human survivors. But in Duin Halfmorn, these dark creatures will witness a terrible rebirth, and the free peoples would do right to tremble in fear.

It does seem like the lycanthropy was supposed to be a punishment inflicted when he was resurrected, but the references to his and his generals' cannibalism plus the Hati entry makes me think he had the disease back in the age of rebirth too, but managed to keep it a secret and that those who broght him back just didn't know about this trait.


Although I'm totally making this up, I'd guess that ravenous werewolves are retty much stuck in their animal form, blooded werewolves may be controlled by the phases of the moon, and greater werewolves (and especially Duin himself) have gained complete control of their transformations. I'd say that they are pretty stupid in their wolf form, but not in any way mentally disadvantaged in their human form. For those who can switch forms at will to formulate plans with human cunning and execute them with werewolf strength lycanthropy is a big advantage.


It would be nice if we made the Baron and Greater Werewolves appear human but have werewolf attack animations.

It would be nice if we made the Baron and Greater Werewolves appear human but have werewolf attack animations.
that should be doable, right?

(is it possible to take advantage ofthe Frozen animation bog that changes units appearecne?)

if not, i'm sure there's another way...

Although I'm totally making this up, I'd guess that ravenous werewolves are retty much stuck in their animal form, blooded werewolves may be controlled by the phases of the moon, and greater werewolves (and especially Duin himself) have gained complete control of their transformations. I'd say that they are pretty stupid in their wolf form, but not in any way mentally disadvantaged in their human form. For those who can switch forms at will to formulate plans with human cunning and execute them with werewolf strength lycanthropy is a big advantage.

I wish you weren't making it up, because I totally agree with it-- what a pity we don't have any Lore to back it up. This also asks the question that are the infected werewolves as powerful or intelligent as this found in the Age of Ice? Is the Baron the greatest werewolf, is he a typical of AoI werewolves or are the current ones more akin to those before? I know what you mean about it being hard to know when he had the disease, he was clearly punished by the gods-- and can clearly change form unlike poor Hati... but I wish I could add weight to the theory that as you become a more advanced werewolf you gain more of your senses and reason. I mean-- I almost wish the ravenous werewolves were ALWAYS barbarian and you had to capture them with hunters to make them yours... it's no more difficult to believe than it is that you can have armies of tigers attacking your enemies. but as they mature they should be more akin to the humans they came from.

To accomplish a human appearance while moving around, but a Werewolf appearance when attacking, you would just make a normal human model (quite aristocratic I imagine) for the base unit model, and then include a werewolf model which is larger than the unit as part of the weapon model. Then during combat when the weapon is rendered, the larger werewolf completely covers the human animation (have to be VERY careful with placing the units and setting up the animations to ensure overlap at all points in time).

Are there any references to over important (named) werewolves somewhere hidden in the lore? At the moment they seem to be a bit....few:(

There are two or three; the most obvious one is Duin Halfmorn. The only other "named" werewolf is in Age of Ice, called Hati. Hati's really a halfbreed, but most of that is already mentioned in this thread.

Other than that, none that I know of.

I don't think "halfbreed" is the proper term. She is in some ways more pure blooded werewolf than the others. She was infected with Lycanthropy before she was born, while they contracted the disease later in life which left their humanity somewhat intact.

Sounds interesting but does the part of changing forms at will (baron and greater werewolves(?)) justify beast unit combat? To get all those sweet promos (huge numbers of mediocre promos = uber unit). My Duin always runs out of options. I have not tried it but I think I should be able to change it myself. But it would be cool if it was made official too.

The biggest thing bout werewolves is that have a pack mentality imho. So, the Baron is the pack leader. But in a pack, they are always those who are higher up (greater werewolves). Then those who are in the middle (blooded werewolves). And then those at the bottom (ravenous werewolves). Like a pack, those who are at the top are the strongest and most cunning. They know the most, have lived the longest, and can easily kill those who dare to challenge them. So, although ravenous werewolves are the most unstable, it's the greater werewolves (especially the Baron [the greatest werewolf essentially]) that are most dangerous.
But I rather doubt that the werewolves would ever be a civ by themselves (despite mods to make them so). The main reason I think is that Duin has to be summoned back into Erebus now. So, he owes (whether he likes it or not) a certain obligation to the civ that resurrects him.

And an obligation to any lucky scout with subdue animal...

Agreed. Which is why he should be unitcombat_beast. ;) Mention that to Kael if ya get a chance, will ya?

Agreed. Which is why he should be unitcombat_beast. ;) Mention that to Kael if ya get a chance, will ya?

Your request is enough, I'll get werewolves changed to beasts in 0.40.

All of them? I still kind of like letting Ravenous Werewolves remain Animals. I'm indifferent about Blooded, but Greater and Duin should be beasts.

Y should ravenous remain animals? They can be captured by rangers then.

Y should ravenous remain animals? They can be captured by rangers then.

Exactly.

Ravenous werewolves are basically trapped in wolf form, completely unable to control themselves, barely capable of anything beyond simple, animalistic thought. Until they become somewhat able to control their fury, they should be no different then any other animal.

Now...that...is a good answer. See, that makes sense. I agree with that.

I've been hearing things about 'Kael's D&D campaign'. How do I get in on this thing? Sounds epic.

Well, first you'd have to go back in time more than 18 years....

There have been a few attempts to start up D&D like games based off FFH, but they are dead now to my knowledge. You could always try again though...

I believe that Vorschlumpf has one going. But it is anybody's guess as to where he lives and who he really is ;)

I think he (Vorshlumpf) lives in Canada, and for some reason, Vancouver area

This may be slightly late, but I believe that the Baron and possibly Hati's mother were Werewolves that were more powerful than even greater Werewolves. I can accept that the Greater Werewolves regain some memory of their past lives and can become very intelligent, but I don't think they can change shape. But if there was a type of Werewolf even more powerful than the Greater Werewolf, it would make more sense to me. Duin Halfmorn is stronger than any Werewolf I've ever had in any game so he could be an example of this "Super Werewolf" and because he's trying to save the Werewolves from extinction, lesser Werewolves have a lesser chance of advancing to the next level of lycanthropy. Of course, this is what I believe and I could certainly be wrong.

We have no reason to believe that other werewolves don't change shape.

I say that Hati is "the exception that proves the rule" (in its original and proper meaning of something that is worth mentioning because it is unusual, implying that the rule is otherwise) to say that most werewolves can change form.


My personal opinion is that lesser werewolves haven't gained enough control over their new bodies or their new hunger to exist in any form but their wolf form, that blooded werewolves are starting to be able to control the transformation but are still greatly effected by strong emotions/hunger/the moon, and that greater werewolves have mastered their forms and can thus transform at will.

It makes sense to say that Duin and Hati's mother are among the greatest of the greater werewolves, but I don't think it is worth making a new catagory. Really, I don't think any of the categories should be seen as distinct phases so much as a gradual maturation. Hati's mother would be stronger than most on the grounds that she survived longer in harsher environments than the other werewolves. Duin is stronger because of good breeding, long experience, and because he may have a older more potent form of the disease than the more diluted strains of his spawn.

Well, if I remember correctly, Duin was the first Werewolf. I'd have to look up his Civilopedia entry again. You have poked a few holes in my theory, though. Maybe the older Werewolves are just so used to their new forms that they prefer to stay in that state instead of returning to their former state.


Edit: Nevermind, I found Duin's entry.

Like all mortals, even the horrific Duin passed away, but he would not be allowed to sleep forever. In time of dire need, desperate mages performed rites to bring back the greatest, most feared general of history. But it was not without price: the gods knew of Duin's character, and would not suffer him to be raised back to life without an appropriate form.

Werewolves had not been seen in the world since the Age of Ice. Hardly possessed with the same mental faculties as vampires, the werewolves truly were hunted to extinction by the human survivors. But in Duin Halfmorn, these dark creatures will witness a terrible rebirth, and the free peoples would do right to tremble in fear.

But because he was resurrected by the gods, he could be one of those "super werewolves." I don't recommend making another class, though, because anyone who gets the Hairy Baron could end up with a large army of almost unstoppable Werewolves that could wipe out any civilization on a whim. And where's the fun in that unless you're the Infernals?

In the Age of Rebirth it is believed that he was human until the gods cursed him during his resurrection, but AoI implies otherwise. It seems to say that he came from a long aristocratic line that had long had lycanthropy but had been able to hide it, even though he and his generals were known to feast on human flesh though. The mages who brought him back didn't know that he was a werewolf, so they assumed it was a curse the gods placed on him and on them for bringing him back against the gods' will.

Perhaps he was able to control it in his former life, but the process used by the mages to bring him back messed with his ability to stay in human form. Maybe the reason he feasted on his dead enemies was because of his Werewolf instincts and now that he's been reborn years later, he might've forgotten how to hide his lycanthropy as well. Just a thought.

Perhaps, but I don't really think he has trouble staying in human form. In the civilopedia he is described as a well dressed warrior of noble birth who leads a werewolf attack in human form and only changes to teach an unfortunate young werewolf who's boss.

I think it would probably make more sense to say that he probably came back naked and starving, and so decided that quickly changing form and eating the mages who brought him back was more important than keeping his secret secret. Once the secret is out, why bother hiding it anymore?

Maybe the reason the Hairy Baron looks half human/half wolf is because he feels comfortable in both forms, but requires a great deal of concentration to stay in one form or the other.

Well, In the Night of The Werewolves games, The baron is always a well dressed aristocrat, with no problem convincing the inocent villagers of his nobility and huamnity,

Yes, and the new werewolves have no trouble staying in human form until death...