I've been thinking for a while that it might be nice to flesh out the religions followed by the Lizards and the Scions Emperor, and I believe I have thought of an easy way to do it. What if we created guilds, granting some small benefit and discoverable at, say, philosophy? This way the Cualli can be shown to worship Agruonn/Aeron, the Mazatl Kalshekk and possibly Omorr, and the Scions their emperor. The Scions already recieve +2 culture for their agnostic leader, so that could be moved to the guild effect, maybe make it automatically spread to newly constructed cities, but require it to be spread to conquered cities, the same way it is now? These 'religions' would mostly just add a bit of flavor to agnostic civilizations, and could also be used diplomatically if you add a relations bonus for spreading it to other civs, or even a penalty... I can see Pelemac spreading the Cult of the Emperor to a neighboring civ, converting population, and running off with them...

What do you think?

I think it would be better to add 7 "religions" that acted as guilds but with different benefits than real religions:

1) Stewards of Inequity (Mammon's Religion)
- Gives huge bonuses for the first city in each nation with it (including the headquarters), huge penalties for all other cities with it.
- Founded by building at "Currency"

2) The White Hand (Mulcarn's Religion)
- Gives production bonuses, access to units that can build special improvements that give use to tundra/ice tiles
- Founded with the "White Hand" ritual in Illian city that completes it

3) The Emrys (Cerdiwen's Religion)
- Research and magical bonuses, raises AC and causes demons/extraplanar creatures to be spawned at random
- Founded by special building at Sorcery

I can't think of others off the top of my head but I know that Kael has listed them at some point in the past.

awesome post, I totally agree! I've always thougt that it would be sweet to add some more depth to all the other cults and religions in Erebus. many civs just don't fit with any of the major religions flavour-wise.

I think it would be better to add 7 "religions" that acted as guilds but with different benefits than real religions:

1) Stewards of Inequity (Mammon's Religion)
- Gives huge bonuses for the first city in each nation with it (including the headquarters), huge penalties for all other cities with it.
- Founded by building at "Currency"

2) The White Hand (Mulcarn's Religion)
- Gives production bonuses, access to units that can build special improvements that give use to tundra/ice tiles
- Founded with the "White Hand" ritual in Illian city that completes it

3) The Emrys (Cerdiwen's Religion)
- Research and magical bonuses, raises AC and causes demons/extraplanar creatures to be spawned at random
- Founded by special building at Sorcery

I can't think of others off the top of my head but I know that Kael has listed them at some point in the past.

Those are good ideas... With the removal of the guilds, I can see quite a few of these minor religions taking their place. They would help add flavor to civs, and the bonus could be as small or large as is necessary.. I wish I'd thought of the White Hand one lol. Would help the Illians production capabilities.

The only bad thing is that those religions would mean that the evil gods would have more representation than the good/neutral gods. :lol:

True, but that's more a result of the backgrounds of the different civs then anything else... Many more of them are naturally evil than good.

I think every angel should have their own religion and guilds might be the easiest way to do that without having HUGE balancing issues with so many religions. The problem is there's so many angels... >_>

I think 7 religions and 7 guilds would be the best way. Also some gods can be rolled together or ignored outright because of their worship practices.

7 religions: (2 Good, 3 Neutral, 2 Evil)


Junil - Order
Lugus - Emp
Kilmorph - RoK
Cernunos(?) - FoL
Danalin - OO
Esus - CoE
Agares - AV

7 Guilds: ( 3 Good, 1 Neutral, 3 Evil)

Amathanon(?) - Growth Guild
Sirona - Diplomatic/ Peace Guild
Nantosuelta - Enchanting Guild
Oghma - Knowledge/Research Guild
Mammon - Greed/Gold Guild
Mulcarn - Production/Stasis Guild
Bhall - War/Change Guild

Others: ( 1 Good, 2 Neutral, 3 Evil)

Sucellus (Too many good gods? )
Arawn (No Worship)
Dagda (Balance only, hard to work into a religion?)
Tali (No organized worship)
Camulos (No organized worship)
Aeron (Chosen of Aeron works fine as a promotion)
Cerdiwen (Too close to AV/Oghma imo)

Although this is just my list and I tried to give them a few different attritubes.

I like those ideas, although I'd still opt for a Scion's guild also at the very least... Seems more interesting to me than a building in each city, even if it does the same thing.

A few of those guilds would be easy to work in as it is... Build Bazaar of Mammon to found his 'religion', Sirona's maybe as an event for visiting Sirona's Beacon? I don't know too much of the lore there to suggest anything better... Oghma should probably be the domain of the Kahdi, maybe only available if they choose to follow Oghma over Mammon? Mulcarn and Bhall should probably be founded by the Illians and Clan, respectively... Although it might be easier to balance if they're available to anyone.

While Cernunnos is the most important god worshiped by the Fellowship of the Leaves, this religion also reveres Sucellus and Amathaon greatly. Amathon does not need another religion following him. Sucellus is now revered by all the gods as they see him as Nemed reborn, and his priests (the Druids) are already in the game.


Sirona's worshipers would be much more dedicated to helping the poor and the orphans rather than dealing with large scale political issues like diplomacy. Sirona's "guild" would probably provide health and lower the AC. I'm thinking this religious guild would be the Sisterhood of Sirona, as they are specifically mentioned in Perpentach's entry as the ones that ran the asylum where Perpentach grew up (that is, before he took control of every mind there). The Order of the Elohim greatly revere her too, but as that is a civ it probably shouldn't also be a guild. When first founded by Immanuel Logos, this group too was devoted mostly to caring for orphans. Diplomacy is more an Empyrean thing.

Actually, Diplomacy is mostly the role of Dagda. Kael has described the sphere of force/balance is very close to the sphere of Law, except that Law is about unilaterally enforcing standard laws and justice and keeping one's own oaths, while force is about making and keeping mutually acceptable agreements. Dagda's constellation event is the one that benefits diplomacy.


Although Ceridwen is awfully close to Agares, the fact that we know the name of her cult (the Emrys) and that it was actively involved in getting people to practice magic and convincing mages to join the Sheaim in their Armageddon rituals makes her seem like a good choice.

I'd say that Bhall is now at least as close to Agares as Ceridwen, as they even share a vault. I think Bhall is covered by the Ashen Veil.

I'm not sure Oghma should have a guild or many worshipers, as he wasn't even able to defend his vault and the worshipers whose souls had already moved on abiding there was being conquered by the forces of Mammon.


Arawn probably would be a bad choice, since his inaction discourages worship. Some (like the Sidar) hae tried to found cults following him, but his apathy didn't make it easy. They revere him, but thats not really worship.

What do you think?

I think representing movements (cults, sects, or whatever) that fall short of an in-game Religion but have some significance via Guilds is an excellent idea.

Especially for the agnostics-that-aren't-really. Though note that the Emperor as leader has available most of the benefits (units and buildings) you get from a religion. (Hmm... but there's not really a religious Hero...) I guess they'd be reworked a bit and, for the Emperor, the "guild" unlocks a lot more than for any other civ/leader.

Should the Grigori get "Rampant Secular Humanism"?

Picking 7, I'd go with:

(in no particular order)
1) Lizards
2) Lizards #2
3) Scions
4) Mammon
5) Bhall
6) Mulcarn
7) Sucellus

The first one I'd drop from that list might very well be the Scions. It'd be neat if the Emperor's cult was so attractive it justified a secondary religion. OTOH, I think it at least as plausible to say the ties to nationalism are too tight.

I can certainly see my wish-list changing after exactly what these Guilds do gets worked out.

EDIT: Leaving out the "agnostics" guilds there's 4: It might be nice if 2 were associated with Evil, and 2 with Good, and a civ can't pick up a Guild with an opposing alignment.

Yeah, it's hard to balance the guilds so that the good/neutral/evil are balanced. Then how about:

( 2 good, 3 Neutral, 2 Evil)

Sirona - Health/Happy Guild
Nantosuelta - Enchanting/Production Guild
Dagda - Diplomacy/Balance Guild
Oghma - Knowledge/Research Guild
Tali - Culture/Happy Guild
Mammon - Greed/Gold Guild
Ceridwen - Magic/Research Guild

While Oghma isn't too active in worship, the fact that Mammon invaded his vault is a D&D fact and I'm not sure Kael has said it is canon for FfH (could be wrong). I'd prefer game balance to lore though, flavor should be second to gameplay issues. Also I'm not so sure Mulcarn would be too revered by anyone, although the case could be made that weak neighbors of the Illians might start worshipping winter out of fear (the main reason humans worshipped Mulcarn). Tali might not have organized worship but he would fill a nice niche as a culture and happiness guild as a carefree and fickle god.

Edit: I forgot about Cult of the Dragon. It would fill a nice neutral role instead of Tali or Oghma.

Especially for the agnostics-that-aren't-really. Though note that the Emperor as leader has available most of the benefits (units and buildings) you get from a religion. (Hmm... but there's not really a religious Hero...) I guess they'd be reworked a bit and, for the Emperor, the "guild" unlocks a lot more than for any other civ/leader.

That's actually why I'd prefer to tie it to a guild, only available to the Emperor and possibly anyone he chooses to spread it to... As it is now, captured cities that should have no love for the Emperor can immediately begin building his temples and units.... If you tie them to a guild, instead, you have to actively work to spread his worship across the empire.

Just because Oghma's vault got raided doesn't mean he shouldn't be worshipped... People worship Agares and his vault is just a barren wasteland...
;)

At first I was mildly curious why you would bother adding in other religions as Corporations instead of real religions, but I finally see the imoprtant difference. While you can have either one in a city, and spread either one with a standard unit, it is not possible to devote yourself to FOLLOW a corporation. So in that regard it starts to make sense.


Honestly... I think that I would move Esus and Empyrean over to being Corporations in that case. Neither one really seems much like something that a nation devotes itself to following. The first is already touted as being almost worthless to follow, but amazing to have. And the second is such an "ideal" concept that it is hard to think anyone follows it without a secondary agenda in a world like FfH.


So the goal would be not to design religions similar to the current ones, but to design the religions which are observed instead of worshipped.

Exactly, having that many religions is rather overwhelming I think. But having a few religions and then other minor religions that aren't really as defining but provide their own set of defining features can really give the user control when it comes to refining a civ to their play style. Besides, it gives us a chance to actually see the worship of more than just a handful of angels. Reading fluff and lore is one thing, actually having them in the game and experiencing their effects is quite another.

I'd rather you not change the Empyrean or Council of Esus to be guilds. In fact, I'd rather these new "religious guilds" be real religions, albeit probably unadoptable like the Cult of the Dragon once were. That way, they would be effected by Inquisition.

It could also be nice to simply have the game options to disable the religions and have them disabled by default. You could also set it so that only the first 5 or so of the possible religions will be founded.


It would also be nice if you could officially sanction some non-state religions to reap some benefits from them and to make them immune to inquisition in your cities. It is known that the Order Bannor tolerate (although don't particularly like) the worship of other good gods and officially support the temples Lugus and Sirona in their capital so long as these priests join in and aid in their crusades. I'm not at all sure how to implement this though.

As it is now, captured cities that should have no love for the Emperor can immediately begin building his temples and units.... If you tie them to a guild, instead, you have to actively work to spread his worship across the empire.

Good point.

(OTOH, cities captured by the Scions do undergo a severe population loss. It could be assumed there's a lot of erm... "persuasion" involved. Though that can also be completely explained by the Scions particular Lifestyle Choice. Emperor-worship as Guild makes good sense in either case.)

I'd rather you not change the Empyrean or Council of Esus to be guilds. In fact, I'd rather these new "religious guilds" be real religions, albeit probably unadoptable like the Cult of the Dragon once were. That way, they would be effected by Inquisition.

Would it be possible to implement an inquisition-like spell that affects guilds? As there are no real guilds anymore, it shouldn't be any more of a balance issue than inquisition itself.

Or just change Inquisition to remove guilds as well :p

At first I was mildly curious why you would bother adding in other religions as Corporations instead of real religions, but I finally see the imoprtant difference. While you can have either one in a city, and spread either one with a standard unit, it is not possible to devote yourself to FOLLOW a corporation. So in that regard it starts to make sense.


Honestly... I think that I would move Esus and Empyrean over to being Corporations in that case. Neither one really seems much like something that a nation devotes itself to following. The first is already touted as being almost worthless to follow, but amazing to have. And the second is such an "ideal" concept that it is hard to think anyone follows it without a secondary agenda in a world like FfH.


So the goal would be not to design religions similar to the current ones, but to design the religions which are observed instead of worshipped.

Exactly. All I was really proposing originally was a guild providing a small bonus, like 2 culture for the Scions, or a small amount of research or some happiness, for the not-really-agnostic civs, showing that while it's not a major religion, they do have their own beliefs. I do like the ideas to expand it to other minor gods as well though... Specifically with Mulcarn. At the moment, the Illians tend to have low hammer output, while being ritual heavy... Personally, I'd like to see a Mulcarn 'guild', foundable with either their first ritual or a tech like priesthood, that would provide a certain amount of hammers for each ice square in the BFC, like happiness for the FoL. As they will always have the same amount of ice (either 19 or 20 squares, don't know if you count the city itself), you could set it to, say, 1/4 hammer per ice, giving 5 hammers relatively early. You could then allow the bonus to increase with certain techs or rituals, or even better, could use your Aspects idea and and allow terrain to age the same way you can age units.... Snow->Permafrost->Glacier? With each successive increase giving better benefits from the guild, allowing the Illians to maintain a decent hammer output.

I'd rather you not change the Empyrean or Council of Esus to be guilds. In fact, I'd rather these new "religious guilds" be real religions, albeit probably unadoptable like the Cult of the Dragon once were. That way, they would be effected by Inquisition.

It could also be nice to simply have the game options to disable the religions and have them disabled by default. You could also set it so that only the first 5 or so of the possible religions will be founded.


It would also be nice if you could officially sanction some non-state religions to reap some benefits from them and to make them immune to inquisition in your cities. It is known that the Order Bannor tolerate (although don't particularly like) the worship of other good gods and officially support the temples Lugus and Sirona in their capital so long as these priests join in and aid in their crusades. I'm not at all sure how to implement this though.

While at this point I am not changing anything (nor likely to until the idea is infectiously good), why precisely would you not want them changed out?

Overall, there is nothing that religions do now which we could not do with guilds as well. Could even have a "State Guild" concept to make it completely parallel to religions, but that would mildly defeat the entire point of the current proposal.

Your idea of the Order tolerating certain other religions would be perfectly demonstrated by having corporations only able to spread into cities with the appropriate religion, or having them removed along with certain religions. You could either have each religion allow 2 different Followings (no use calling them Guilds or Corporations for this concept), while each Following is possible for 2 religions (thus every religion overlaps Followings with 2 seperate religions).

Anyway, main point is, why say "no" to anything when you can instead just develop the idea to fit tastes/needs?

Would it be possible to implement an inquisition-like spell that affects guilds? As there are no real guilds anymore, it shouldn't be any more of a balance issue than inquisition itself.

Easily possible, either working current inquisition to hit both, making a new Following aimed inquisition, or really anything that seems to fit the final product.



Hrm... you could even make it so that Followings have a different effect based on what State religion you follow. White Hand could have no effect at all for someone with a state religion, Empyrean could only mean anything while following Order or RoK.... Lots of possibilities. I'll shut up now before the idea gets developed enough that it DOES become infectious, because I honestly have no time to code right now and I have better things to work on first.

Easily possible ... or really anything that seems to fit the final product.

With Scions Following in a city the Doomsayer's "Inquisition" removes other Followings/Religions, reduces population by 1, and gives 1 free unit depending on Religion removed:

Order: Junil's Zombie Raiders
Veil: Wrath Wraith
OO: Mutant Monster Mummy
RoK: The Stone'd Dead
CoE: Shadoez Shadez
Emp:Sunshine Skeleton Skirmisher
FoL: Dead Tree Hugger

I like this idea... but i like the guilds made available through orbi modmod. I would prefer that all minor religions act more like guilds in its mechanics and called pagan or heathen religions, and add the coperations from orbi modmod.

Your idea of the Order tolerating certain other religions would be perfectly demonstrated by having corporations only able to spread into cities with the appropriate religion, or having them removed along with certain religions. You could either have each religion allow 2 different Followings (no use calling them Guilds or Corporations for this concept), while each Following is possible for 2 religions (thus every religion overlaps Followings with 2 seperate religions).

Doing something like that would not only flesh out the minor cults quite nicely, it would add variation to the religions... Gives you more options to play with, especially if the Followings had different effects depending on which of the religions you pair them with.

perhaps going off on a tangent, but would it be feasible to have minor religions blossom into full religions?

They would (presumably) be underpowered compared to the 'official' 7 religions as they may not have the religious heroes/building/units, but could be interesting to see if you could win a religious victory with the Cult of Tali!

Honestly... I think that I would move Esus and Empyrean over to being Corporations in that case. Neither one really seems much like something that a nation devotes itself to following.

I'd rather see Esus and Empyrean "fixed." Probably more State-Religion-Only things for Esus, including changing most of the current "just need it in a city" items. For Empy.... maybe some significant bonus for being at peace, trading tech, and/or having Open Borders. (Rewards for "being nice.")

Doing something like that would not only flesh out the minor cults quite nicely, it would add variation to the religions... Gives you more options to play with, especially if the Followings had different effects depending on which of the religions you pair them with.

Given that Followings dedicated just to Scions and Lizards seems a bit of a waste. Maybe make the Scions Following more generic (perhaps they get a bonus if they found it, or even automatically found it) and compress the Lizards down to 1, and/or make it more generic.

For the Scions generic could be "National Cult" or the equivalent of God Emperor. (For now I'll take it as a point of faith that someone can suggest a name and effect that'd convey the basics of "God Emperor" without using the same name as the Civic.)

totally agreed that Empyrean should reward being peaceful. right now it's actually a nice warmongering religion, which feels completely out of flavour :\

Perhaps a "Dwarven Vault" approach, a turn counter for peace gives bonuses.
:)

Given that, Followings dedicated just to Scions and Lizards seems a bit of a waste. Maybe make the Scions Following more generic (perhaps they get a bonus if they found it, or even automatically found it) and compress the Lizards down to 1, and/or make it more generic.

For the Scions generic could be "National Cult" or the equivalent of God Emperor. (For now I'll take it as a point of faith that someone can suggest a name and effect that'd convey the basics of "God Emperor" without using the same name as the Civic.)

True, but I'd still like to see those three available just for them, as it shows that they have their own religions... Probably too much if the system Xienwolf came up with was used though. :(

I'd quite like to have the White hand available as a religion/guild instead of being Illian only. ;)

I'd like to see Council of Esus to be removed (as a religion at least) and replaced by say ... Mulcarn worship? There is one major flaw I see in CoE as it is implemented currently. That is Svartalfar ... Why would elves choose anything but FoL?

How about give any forest an 1/10000 or 1/20000 chance each turn to independently go anciet. And FoL makes the change much more rapid.

totally agreed that CoE would be better as a guild than a religion. it's not even a religion. no temples, no disciples...

Gekko;7356262']totally agreed that CoE would be better as a guild than a religion. it's not even a religion. no temples, no disciples...

A lack of temples and disciples in itself doesn't mean it can't be a religion - it just implies that followers don't need the trappings of a temple to follow their beliefs and/or simply don't want to advertise those beliefs

Looking at the text in Xienwolf's 1.94b manual, it comes across as valuing the inidividual over society, and seems fairly secular.

As such I do wonder whether CoE as state religion should provide an additional boost to Liberty...

I would also like to see the opportunity to perhaps be able pay for a CoE unit to become a Healer though...(perhaps an additional National Unit?)

Gekko;7356262']totally agreed that CoE would be better as a guild than a religion. it's not even a religion. no temples, no disciples...

I agree. Right now, nearly all the perks of the religion can be attained just by having it in your cities... No need to adopt it.

A lack of temples and disciples in itself doesn't mean it can't be a religion - it just implies that followers don't need the trappings of a temple to follow their beliefs and/or simply don't want to advertise those beliefs


Actually the definition of disciple is someone who believes and helps to spread the doctrine of another.

The definition of religion is a set of beliefs and practices often organized around supernatural and moral claims, and often codified as prayer, ritual, and religious law.

If no disciples were able to spread a religion then the religion would die as an idea with the thinker.
The goal of every belief and religion is to spread, you may not PUBLICLY advertise it but any religion that doesn't have the goal of producing religious offspring will die by the laws of natural selection. Which apply to any organism that competes with others. Thus a religion competes with other religions for worshipers. By the definition I've laid out worshipers are the offspring of the religion. That's why religions that frown on sexual reproduction have died off over time, imagine if Christianity had stuck with the "we frown on sex" back in the Roman Empire? It'd be a dead religion.

CoE may be about deception but it's deception between individuals, CoE itself doesn't try to deter worshipers. I'm sure Esus would be more than happy to have worshipers and "deceive" others into worshiping him. [offtopic]


Note: It is of course possible for a religion to be passed on to CERTAIN individuals, but as I've said, this would lower the fitness of the religion and greatly increase the chance of that said religion becoming extinct due to a problem in a single generation. (A generation where no new worshipers are found and there is no one to pass the knowledge to.)

okay, well then the followers *are* the disciples, there just isn't an organised clergy, and can happen to be a bit picky about whom they spread the word to. It still doesn't make CoE any less of a religion than the other 6


oooh...just learned a new word - laity: the body of religious worshipers, as distinguished from the clergy.