SGOTM 14 - Humanitarian Portuguese Domination
Welcome to your SGOTM 14 Team thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game here, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest. I hope you enjoy the game.

The starting saves will become available on the SGOTM Progress and Results (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm_submission_list.php) page on October 18th, at midnight, server local time.

Henry of Portugal intends to dominate the world, but he also wants to conserve as much as possible of its cultural diversity. This is a Demigod game, on a standard archipelago map. Thanks go to Ivan Larkin and CommandoBob for assembling the specification for this game. You can see the discussions leading to it in this thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=284826).

The winning laurels will be awarded to the team that reaches a fast Domination victory with the highest "humanitarian" score. Each civilization that is still alive in your victory save will add ten points to your score. Each turn that you take to reach victory will deduct one point from your score.

The game will be played to GOTM standards. No one plays the save except the current team player. No replays except in the event of a crash. Set autosaves for every turn so that you only replay the current turn if you suffer a crash.

Here's the start. All the food, shields and luxuries you could wish for :D. Click the picture for a bigger image.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/images/sgotm14startsmall.png (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/images/sgotm14start.jpg)

Map Parameters
Playable Civ - Portugal
Difficulty - Demi-god
Opponents - 24
World - Standard (100 x 50), Archipelago, 60% water
Barbarians - Roaming

The map may have been tweaked :p

Game mods:
We shall use the default rules as defined in the SGOTM Reference Thread. Note that Differential Naval Movement remains a feature of the SGOTM scenarios.

All the AI civs have been provided with additional defence in the form of a Pikeman to reduce the chances of too many AI-on-AI deaths.

In a deal which includes a resource, a millitary alliance or a trade embargo, the human player is not allowed to pay the AI more gpt to AI than the AI demands.

Detailed discussions of the reasoning surrounding this are available starting here in the SGOTM 13 sign-up thread, as well as in a number of other HoF and GOTM-related forums.

The SGOTM Mediterranean resources are included. If you have played previous SGOTMs then you will be ready. Other players will need to download and unzip a small graphics mod pack linked in the Reference thread.

Please ensure that you have included the line: NoAIPatrol=0 in your conquests.ini text file:


A 'fix' for the Barbarians!:
As many of you know, the barbarians in C3C are 'broken'. This can be fixed by going to your \Conquest\ folder, and opening your Conquests.ini file, and adding a line noaipatrol=0 to the file. Whilst we cannot force people to do this, it will make the game a bit more interesting if you do. If you are not comfortable editing your .ini file, you can download a utility here ( http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civassist/BarbFixer.zip) to do it automatically.


Players running Civ3 Complete for Macintosh should contact me if they have any problems with the mod. If they are not running a patched version they will need to use FileValet to compress their saves for upload, and they may also need to use it to 'clean' downloaded saves before playing.

Please visit the following links to ensure that you are adequately prepared, skipping references to PtW or Vanilla versions of Civ3.

The GOTM Reference Thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=71788)
The SGOTM Reference Thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=112722)

Notes:

ONLY Conquests version 1.22 (C3C) is supported for this SGOTM.


All teams will compete for a single award set:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/players/awards/redlaurel14.gif The Crimson Laurels will be awarded for the Domination victory with the most civs still alive, and in the least turns. Each live civ adds ten points. Each turn taken to achieve victory deducts one point. If two teams score the same then the most humanitarian team wins - the one with more civs alive. If this figure is also equal then the Jason scores will be the tie breaker.




http://gotm.civfanatics.net/players/awards/woodenspoon14.gif The Wooden Spoons are for the lowest Jason-scoring finish, win or lose, but you have to try to win!





All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

Have fun, and be nice to each other :)

Hi Team! Checking in.

Ok, I'm on board for this one

I'll need to check if I've loaded the Med Resource pack since my last re-install

Checking in

Welcome to new members of Spooks (and returning member) :beer:.

I'm about to board a plane for Melbourne so will be inactive over the weekend. To make up for it I thought I would start the ball rolling with some thoughts - so you can all pull them to pieces :mischief:

I used editor to make a few mockup maps of starting position with similar settings - one has a crowded start and the one I tried playing a bit had more immed avail territory. Note this was before AlanH indicated 24 rather than 25 rivals and that there wont be any other seafaring civs, also I didnt give the AI their extra pike.

I went for curragh, warrior, granary, settlers - managed to squeeze in 11 aggressively stealing a couple of luxes. If we are more crowded we probably will want settler first to claim good spot, also if 5fpt spot avail then settler before granary. Research I went for writing on min - with all the contacts my initial curragh (and later ones) made I got good trade from that despite being 4 turns behind AI. Then philo which I got - I'm doubtful if CoL first is doable. - I got free lit and built GLib - I dont think this something we necessarily want, but it certainly sped my way into next age. SoZ went quite early - there were many civs with ivory access - perhaps we have been generously granted exclusivity - somehow I doubt it. I bought lots of slaves - this map was more spagetti pangea, if more islands this wont be poss (I had 19 slaves by 1000BC).
Big mistake - I had no iron on this map (I expect we will in the game) Twice I was rop raped by civs I had bought iron from - once with 6 turns remaining on deal (Greece), once turn after making deal (India) by prev "buddies"

Some randomn thoughts
- we can spreadsheet optimal 4 turn SF, but first few moves of scout will tell if we have room to settle.
- Note choping ivory forest, then mining and irrigating ivory plains, allows for use of extra commerce - on river, so roaded give 3 commerce when roaded in despo). Also using wine hill early - 2 commerce without roading (of course road as soon as pracical to reducelux slider) Oyster is fish equivalent. Giving options to fine tune no shield wastage for max commerce.
- Sev early currughs more valuable than scouts - I lost miy starting scout early to barbs. Later scouts useful if snakey pangea once AI has got rid of barb camps, obviously not if islands.
- writing at min gets my vote for initial research (some of the latest civs I met on 2 civ islands didnt have alpha as I was appraching medieval). Early MM important if more of an island topography (which I expect to be the case)
- Egypt was eliminated by Iroquois during AA - I wasnt paying attention, but it was after I had est embassy so I ought to have been able to see when they were going under - then would have needed to decide if worth gifting a town (at this state of game none are junk towns so I doubt it would be worthwhile)

Any thoughts on dom tiles required to win and how many civs we can hold in tundra reservations? Really other than this it is a fairly normal (OK very crowded) DG domination game with generous start on 'pelago map.

I am assuming we will want to research to cavs, possibly carracks (never played Portugal before) so we can get a late GA to boost cav production and pund the AI into submission. Is this possible, or over optimistic?


I would attach my starting saves from my practice games if anyones interested, but I dont see the upload button (I recall there was a problem with that some time ago) and I've forgotten how to add attacments now :blush:

edit - I worked it out - just had to look :scan:.
Unfortunately I seem to have copied one map over the other in the editor so I now have only the one map - the one I have already part played and discussed above

Hopefully it attaches :please:

Hi guys, checking in.

It has been quite a while I played a "normal" civ3 game. I just play civ3 in Greebley's AW-SGs, so I am a warmonger at heart.

I think I just played 2 archipelago maps ever IIRC. Guessing from previous SGOTMs and all the goodies we have at the starting position I would expect to be alone on a smallish island. :mischief:

Curragh as a first build seems a good choice to me to get some early contacts.

Good morning everybody to a brand new challenge!

When I opened this and saw posts from DF and denyd, I quickly closed it to make sure I was not in the wrong thread ;)

Welcome on board to all new players and to the old ones - for now just a couple but Killercane had asked to be our lurker and Abegweit had also indicated to come back - not sure if and when those two will show up here...
Quite a crowded crew this time but after losing all players in SGotm13 :blush: this might be a relief...

I guess the start might mean a lot of discussion before we move the worker... The luxury and chop is always tempting but the extra food also is... :groucho:
Spreadsheets will tell.

Even the scout has three valid options imo. I'm inclined to go south but N-E also looks good and NE-E is slightly stronger towards the interesting direction...
Only the settler looks fix to me.

Good thing we have quite some micromanagers and spread sheet addicts on the team. ;)
But the other teams also have so no reason to lean back... :shake:

I'll try to make some kind of plan this weekend but I'm pretty sure Più will come up with a spread sheet before I can do :)

Gentlemen, please post your thoughts. :salute:

edit:
line-up

Markh - up
Denyd
CF
Più
Andro
Yilar
Paul - just played

Hello everybody. I'm Più Freddo and I'm a Civ III addict.

Actually, I did a spreadsheet for the four-turner a few days ago. I agree with the points made about 3 gpt tiles and tiles needing no improvement. Only I put a Worker in directly after the Granary in order not to have to use the commerce-less BGs in the time before improvements are finished.

My emphasis was commerce maximation.

Curragh first seems to be a no-brainer with the BG Cattle. It is a BG Cattle off river, right?

The Settler factory could run at size 4..6, but if we build an MP Warrior in two turns and grow to 5..7 we make more commerce working the Oysters also.

I see two options before cultural expansion: either work the Wine for more food or work the Ivory Forest for more shields. The first option ends up one turn slower than the second, but gives more commerce. (More food is slower because it has one more growth cycle before the Granary.)

If 274 beakers is correct for Writing, then at max research it could be ready in 2430 BC (turn 33) working the Wine or 2310 BC (turn 36) working the Ivory Forest.

First Settlers are 2750 BC (turn 25) and 2850 BC (turn 23), respectively.

Philosophy as second tech could be ready as early as 1830 BC (turn 48) counting the Capital only.

I'm not so sure about the 24 AI tribes. Won't that be very crowded? Do we need a Settler Factory at all?

Hello everybody. I'm Più Freddo and I'm a Civ III addict.
No need to tell us :lol:
Curragh first seems to be a no-brainer with the BG Cattle. It is a BG Cattle off river, right?
Yes, indeed. Lovely. :)
If 274 beakers is correct for Writing, then at max research it could be ready in 2430 BC (turn 33) working the Wine or 2310 BC (turn 36) working the Ivory Forest.
That calls for Writing at max imo...
I'm not so sure about the 24 AI tribes. Won't that be very crowded? Do we need a Settler Factory at all?
Great plan so far. :thumbsup:
I'll have to check in detail at home.

Sounds like a plan Piu... I think we can all agree on irragating the cow to begin with :)

Also does your spreadsheet send the warrior exploring or leave him on mp duty?

Sounds like a plan Piu... I think we can all agree on irragating the cow to begin with :)

Also does your spreadsheet send the warrior exploring or leave him on mp duty?

We have a scout. ;) I would send him either NE, E or SW, S to follow the river.

I agree with Writing ASAP. I agree with settling in place and we might want to do that first and save a screenshot with the newly visible tiles.

Normally I would agree with irrigating the cow first. I just want to talk a little about roading then irrigating the ivory, before irrigating either the cow or the wheat. This would make the 3gpt tile already available for the second citizen (we grow before it's completely irrigated, but the worker finishs at the end of turn 8 before the citizen has to work the tile). With the ivory roaded, we can also keep luxury off so Sci stays at max for another pop size. Plus the worker would be able to move directly from roaded cow to wheat on subsequent improvements. EDIT: First unit is curaugh so road doesn't help with that.

I haven't spreadsheeted it to see the growth penalty for not irrigating the cow first, and how much we need the extra 3gpt for Writing. If we go with a granary, it may not be worth wasting the extra civ on 1spt or 2fpt instead of the forest ivory as PF suggested.

We have a scout. ;) I would send him either NE, E or SW, S to follow the river.
I think Yilar was talking about the warrior that PF had in the build queue after the curagh.

How about starting the scout to N-NW and let him draw a clockwise circle around our capital to look for best spots to settle?

I see no urgent need for quick contacts in this one (critical techs Pots and Alpha from the start). But urgent need to decide whether settler before granary or after - or no granary at all.

Any early warrior should be used for MP otherwise he'd better be a scout. ;)

Also does your spreadsheet send the warrior exploring or leave him on mp duty?

All Warriors are MP in the spreadsheet. We could make a Scout out of one and lose some commerce. But I think 24 AIs are likely to find us pretty soon. One Scout should suffice.

settling in place and we might want to do that first and save a screenshot with the newly visible tiles.

A very good idea.

Normally I would agree with irrigating the cow first. I just want to talk a little about roading then irrigating the ivory, before irrigating either the cow or the wheat.

I can try to make a sheet like that in the weekend.

I think Yilar was talking about the warrior that PF had in the build queue after the curagh.

Oops, I missed the attached file. I am getting really old....:cry:

My in-laws are in town to watch the kids for Mrs Freak's and my anniversary, so won't be posting much this weekend.

I've been looking at the starting location and think it will probably take a spreadsheet going 30-40 turns deep to decide whether the worker should go for the ivory or cow first. I agree with Writing as the first tech and a curragh as the first build after than I'd like to consider either a 2nd worker or settler based on what the scout finds. If a settler factory then a worker to move to get the wines connected and to help with a chop to speed the granary build. As for the scout move, either a N-NW or a SW-S seem to be the primary options.

And just in case there's no tradition of naming cities, how about Casper for the capital. After all he's the most famous Ghost (Spook) I've ever heard of.

AlanH has just pointed out that there's no BG under the Cattle. So the
spread-sheet goes to the bin.

I think worker should go to cow first -> irrigated for 4fpt which fits in perfectly with growth), but may work out well to road ivory on way to irrigating wheat (wheat is irrigated turn after grows -> 5fpt). Order of builds is complicated by no BG under cow - if build curragh first we get more wastage, if warrior first it appears just before it is required for mp at size 2. I suggest warrior, curragh, worker. Decision on granary or settler next would depend on how much room we have and how good other sites are. On the other hand, 2 early curraghs would go a long way towards early contacts. This quote suggests curraghs more valuable than scouts :
It was certainly created using the Archipelago option in the editor, and it sure looks like one to me

Hm, we are kind of slow here. Who is going to start us off ?

Hm, we are kind of slow here.

Well, I guess a new spreadsheet would be good using cow without BG - I tried adapting Più Freddo's but I didnt understand why it shows 3 food accumulated at 4000BC.

As far as I can determine warrior, curragh, worker works out with minimal wastage of shields - I agree the early worker is the way to go. By irrigating cow, then roading, move to plains ivory, roading, then to wheat and irrigate / road, we get first a warrior for mp at size 2, worker delays growing to size 3 and when we do we have ivory connected and 5fpt thus allowing 100% science in early stages.

The next question would appear to be early settler or granary - I think we need to wait for early scouting to make that decision. Settler first allows us to get the next best nearby site, granary first allows early 4turnSF and more total towns, provided the AI leaves us with the room.

Of the 2 teams to have played their first 20 turns, only Ivan has already settled their 2nd town at turn 20. I think they went early settler, Klarius could still have gone early settler and be about to settle.

A couple of comments from my trial games
- if AI not close, barbs can be a nuisance
- settling space runs out sooner than usual with crowded map which I think resulted in AI being more aggressive earlier, esp if human is weak militarily, but big (ie successful expansion phase)

No problem here with shooting slower than the others - good ol' Spooks tradition ;)

We need to put up a line-up nevertheless. Tough to do with that many new players. I hope everyone will be fine with it - if not, please speak up!

I'd like Più to be leading off to honor his effort with the spread sheet - if nobody objects.
I'd put Andro also at the top of the order (#2) and markh and me at the end. Any other preferences?

Più - up
Andro - on deck
Yilar
Paul
Markh
Denyd - needs time to install the mod pack ;)
CF - just lurking - maybe more later?

We'll start with a set of ~20 turns and continue with sets of 10 turns. Any player will stop if there are surprises or imporant decisions to take for the team.

I'm not too convinced to build a curragh first. Contacts are nice and important but nobody will help us to get Writing faster than commerce.
Of course we should have some contacts quickly then to trade for tech parity.

My spread sheets also tells me that we get less waste if we do warrior before curragh (just like Andro pointed out) and start using the wine rather than the cow... :hmm:

http://xs132.xs.to/xs132/08420/sgotm14_start425.jpg.xs.jpg (http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs132&d=08420&f=sgotm14_start425.jpg)

I'll try some more calculations tomorrow, especially with an early worker inside there allowing us +5fpt quicker...

And just in case there's no tradition of naming cities, how about Casper for the capital. After all he's the most famous Ghost (Spook) I've ever heard of.
We never cared too much for stuff like that - but we might do. Might gain some "points" if we should do a spoiler this time... :mischief:
I'd rather call it Casper's Castle because I love alliterations :love:

I'm not too convinced to build a curragh first. Contacts are nice and important but nobody will help us to get Writing faster than commerce.
Of course we should have some contacts quickly then to trade for tech parity.

Contacts wont be all that important for researching writing, but the more contacts we have and the sooner we can get them, the more we can extract from the AI
I am thinking a fast research pace globally will speed things up to where we have capacity to reach a domination victory. After all it is not just reaching domination that counts but reaching it fastest (OK, and keepin as many AI alive as poss). Getting literature and republic out to the AI earlier than our rivals (ie the other SGOTM teams) would seem beneficial to me (I look forward to hearing counter arguments).
Earlier curraghs will certainly speed those contacts - think SGOTM12.
Knowing plenty of scientifics at the age change should give us the chance to advance the techs, whilst our greater contacts should allow us to trade our way to the front.
Any thoughts on what units people think we will require for waging war - I'm still of the opinion it will be at least cavs


My spread sheets also tells me that we get less waste if we do warrior before curragh (just like Andro pointed out) and start using the wine rather than the cow... :hmm:


Using the wine delays growth by a turn so we would have 12 food in the bin rather than 8 after 4 turns (after which icow allows 4fpt), so both work out neatly - wines delays growth a turn but gives extra 2cpt - I favour growth early - getting setters out ASAP may be important.


I'd rather call it Casper's Castle
Sounds good to me - Haunted Hollow, Spooky Swamp and Ghoul's Graveyard are the best I can do, sorry :blush:

Thinking about our build options - it appears to me we have choices depending on how crowded our start position is
A) Alone on our starting island - seems improbable since we appear to have plenty of surrounding land -> no rush, 4 turn SF is obvious choice here.
B) Crowded with lots of AI just in the fog - again unlikely, but in this instance we might want a settler out ASAP - turn 11 is possible if immed irr cow - grows to size 2 in 6 turns and size 3 in 11 turns, 2spt 5 turns, 4 on growth, 3spt 4 turns, then 5 on growth -> 31 and settler turn 11, but then we have size 1 town again and no early curragh nor warrior mp. Still worth a thought.
C) Sharing starting island but AI further away giving us chance to get best nearby spot and maybe 2-3 others before having to cram any extras in. I consider this scenario most likely - the warrior, curragh, worker, settler order fits with getting the best avail spot - the question would then be whether to go granary next or just put out those extra 3 or 4 settlers every 8 turns growing 5spt. Even so granary before settler may still be best - we may lose out on 1 spot, but have best opportunity to fill up the rest.

The above will depend on what the scout finds in its first few moves, we just need to be flexible to adapt to what is revealed.

PS
Roster sounds fine
No rush, but lets not stagnate. :coffee:

Using the wine delays growth by a turn so we would have 12 food in the bin rather than 8 after 4 turns (after which icow allows 4fpt), so both work out neatly - wines delays growth a turn but gives extra 2cpt - I favour growth early - getting setters out ASAP may be important.
At least in the "granary first scenario" it turns out nicely with finishing the granary the turn before growth. :hmm:

But an early worker might still win it after all. That's to be proved.
Sorry, I had no time during weekend to do more analysis :blush:

And we should also make up our mind where to send the scout. S for quick contacts or N to circle for good sites first. :dunno:

And we should also make up our mind where to send the scout. S for quick contacts or N to circle for good sites first. :dunno:

Not sure what your reason for saying quick contacts is, I thought the immed priority of scout is to scout our immed vicinity to find best sites for towns and discover how close (if we are not alone) the AI are. This will determine which strategy - early settler before granary, very early settler, granary then 4turner or just settlers. As soon as our immed vicinity is scouted then he can be sent to explore the rest of our island, if it is large. My thinking of the best way to do that is avoid the 1 move options, so I think the following is a very good suggestion ...
How about starting the scout to N-NW and let him draw a clockwise circle around our capital to look for best spots to settle?
Now who was the bright spark with this suggestion ... :p

Got it.

I'll settle in place and make a screen-shot.

Scout N, NW appears to be the next move.

As far as I have understood, we'll want to do some more
spread-sheeting before going any further. I expect to
post my contribution today.

Thanks for trusting me to do the first moves.

Portugal's competitors:

Rome
Egypt
Greece
Babylon
Germany
Russia
China
America
Japan
India
Persia
Zululand
Iroquois
France
Mongols
Aztecs
Arabia
Ottomans
Korea
Sumeria
Hittites
Celts
Maya
Inca

Now who was the bright spark with this suggestion ... :p

Maybe I was just missing approval to this... :pat: :worship: :king:

Now we just have to solve the first worker tasks...
Too bad I did not check the early worker variant yesterday...
But we got a lot to do and should connect both luxuries before reaching size 5 (or even 4?)... This indeed calls for a second worker quickly.
warrior-curragh-worker-granary / settler? :dunno:

At least in my granary-first-variant, timing calls for working the wine the first 4 turns... :mischief:
Not sure if that turn of delayed growth is worth the extra 8g in other variants, too... :hmm:

I'll settle in place and make a screen-shot.

Scout N, NW appears to be the next move.


Maybe screen shot after 1st scout move?


Portugal's competitors:


Well that is consistent with AllanH's note that we are the only seafaring civ - and all the rest are included.

I have done a spreadsheet for builds warrior, curragh, worker, granary, SF for comparison purposes.

I have used mined BG as that more quickly improved, but once wine is mined that is used instead and mBG can go to another town.

Ivory connects IBT after growing to size 3, so lux slider not necessary then

The chop goes to first settler as chop to granary would still produce granary at size 5.

edit - unfortunately it wont upload as it is an invalid file apparently (.xls) anyone know how to work around this?

I've made spread-sheets for the following options:


Wi-Gr-Wo, work the Wine for the first four turns, build Warrior-Curragh-Granary-Worker-Warrior-Settlers
Wi-Wo-Gr, work the Wine for the first four turns, build Warrior-Curragh-Worker-Granary-Settlers
Ca-Wo_Gr, work the Cattle from the beginning, build order as number 2.


Working the Cattle when building Worker after Granary doesn't make sense, as growth is then too fast in relation to Granary completion.

I'd say that the first alternative is better, since it is slightly faster while sqeezing in an extra MP Warrior.

I've not explored the possibility to irrigate the Ivory first. If someone is interested, please do so and compare the result, e.g. as I've done using the dates for

first settler
discovery of Writing as first tech (274 beakers)
discovery of Philosophy as second tech (205 beakers)


Benchmarks are:

2550 BC
2510 BC
1910 BC


I've made a screen-shot at 4000 BC after settling as well.

As a third point to discuss we have the general strategy. It appears, that we want to research Writing A.S.A.P., then Philosophy I guess, hoping to have met enough others to be able to trade for useful techs using Phiosophy in the Big Picture and then choose an expensive monopoly tech as bonus. Is this correct? Other options?

What about Golden Age? We can get one for Colossus. Any chances at that? Or The Great Lighthouse, maybe better. Of course we'd need a very good location for a second city. We could pump it up with Settlers from the Factory if we run out of places to settle.

I have used mined BG as that more quickly improved

Why? We don't technically need any 2 spt tile at size 5..7. We have six 1 spt tiles. Mining the Wine only means we can work the Oysters instead of a BG on river, a gain of 1 gpt half the time.

Which gives me the idea to road the BG instead of mining the Wine! Why didn't I think of that before? Back to the spread-sheet...

unfortunately it wont upload as it is an invalid file apparently (.xls) anyone know how to work around this?

Zip it before upload.

I've downloaded PF's spreadsheet to compare it to mine and because it has the same name it overwrote mine (2 hours of spreadsheeting down the drain :wallbash: :aargh: :badcomp:)
I'll try to re do it (shouldn't take so long second time), then can compare.

Zip it before upload
Thanks I will


edit
PS I dont see anything else of interest in the screenshot (edit2 - I see we have an extra BG and its on a river) - is it worth at least moving the scout?

I'm ready to play :)

Its 4am here and I have to go to work in 3 hours so I'd better get some sleep - I couldnt reproduce my spreadsheet. With granary first we could get granary and settlers sooner (I think I make it 1 turn or 3 turns but no worker), but we would be operating size 4.5-6.5 with less commerce tiles being used (we would have to use BGs and only one is on a river) so I dont think this is as good as PF's no 3. If we are crowded then we will probably need settler before granary. I'm happy for PF to play on till we know how near our neighbours are, until then it is uncertain which of his options is best.

Yes, Più, go ahead with Option 1 (Wi-Gr-Wo).
This also keeps settler first open on growth to size 4 in turn 16 in case we are about to be hemmed in.

Please take a break if opportunities for trades or another cattle farm shows up... :bounce:

I'm ready to play :)
That's great but you'll have to wait a couple of turns... :coffee:

As a third point to discuss we have the general strategy. It appears, that we want to research Writing A.S.A.P., then Philosophy I guess, hoping to have met enough others to be able to trade for useful techs using Phiosophy in the Big Picture and then choose an expensive monopoly tech as bonus. Is this correct? Other options?

We should consider once we get writing - if we are first there and we are running high commerce - do we dare to try CoL - phil for free rep?
The potential gains are huge, the downside is little since we would still likely have good trade from CoL. Perhaps the best comparison would be if we went writing, philo and free CoL (although I suspect we would probably take a more expensive tech like construction). The difference would be only the extra philo in the latter option, and if beaten to philo in the first option, we still have likelihood of trading for it. Then we would need to consider relative chances of getting CoL and phil first vs getting philo first and finding AI with CoL already. Anyway, we dont need to decide yet.


What about Golden Age? We can get one for Colossus. Any chances at that? Or The Great Lighthouse, maybe better. Of course we'd need a very good location for a second city. We could pump it up with Settlers from the Factory if we run out of places to settle.
I doubt we could get the early wonders, even GLH there are likely to be many AI on coast who would cascade. Perhaps the best chance is in the capital if we run out of settling spots. The other risk is these may give a despotic GA.
GLib is likely to be doable unless we get lit demanded off us and lose in a wonder cascade. Do we want to spend 400 shields on it though?
I think Magellan's is likely to be a better bet and timed with cranking out cavs should be able to set up the end game.
I mentioned it before, but ask again - how deep are we likely to have to go with research - is cavalry enough? Maybe carracks and cavs (to transport our cav armies?)

edit
On crowded map with little options for settlers, AI will often go into wonder building early. Also if SGOTM12 is anything to go by, research is likely to be slower than usual for the AI as they wont be able to expand as much - many will be stuck at 2 or 3 productive towns and maybe something crappy squeezed in. Also if true 'pelago as AllanH indicated, isolated AI likely to be slower to make contacts and trade (hence rep slingshot may not be impossible)

It is my expierence that the AI values Map Making above Code of Laws & Philosophy, so if we are the first to Writing, I favor a CoL & Philosophy path to get us to Republic first.

If we aren't the first to Writing, then I suggest Philosophy hoping to get it first and then take Literature in hopes of going for the Great Library.

CF - just lurking - maybe more later?

Actually, I was planning on playing, but if you want to keep it to six for now, I don't mind just lurking.

I've been quiet because I've had a lot of RL stuff going on. I should be free by Wednesday to particpate a little more.

With PF finding the wine solution to keeping gpt high, I think the irrigating of the ivory is put to bed. I agree with proceeding on option 1, stopping if AI are extremely close.

Ok, I've crunched some numbers and I think we could get writing, Col and phil by turn 55 (ie 1625BC) for the rep slingshot. Will that beat the AI? - I think we would be unlucky if beaten, but its no certainty.

My calculations are based on Più's spreadsheet option 1 (ie using wines to max commerce)
As per spreadsheet - writing turn 31 2510BC

Then capital continues at ave of sl over 15bpt - I've assumed 15.
I estimate subsequent towns to take 3 moves to settle (hopefully we have roaded at least 1 tile towards site)
2nd town should produce 3bpt at size 1, 4bpt at size 2 (I conservatively base my beakers and growth on 2fpt surplus only and 1bpt commerce tiles worked)
3rd town should do 3bpt at sizes 1 and 2
4th and 5th towns I allowed only 2bpt
As you can see this is quite conservative

Turn 32 15bpt
Turns 33-36 18bpt (2nd town settled)
Turns 37-40 21bpt (3rd town settled)
Turns 41-42 23bpt (4th town settled)
Turns 43-44 24bpt (town 2 size 2)
Turns 45-47 26bpt (town 5 settled)
Total 343beakers - require 342 for CoL 1870BC - turn 47

Then 26bpt for 8 turns gives 208 beakers providing philo (205) 1625BC - turn 55

- 30bpt would get philo 1 turn earlier
- option of taxmen (edit2 doh! I meant scientists of course as Paul also mentions in later post)not appealing to me, but of it shaves a turn off then might be preferable to working an unimproved grassland or bg with shield lost in corruption.


If I've made any horrible errors please point them out, but it appears to me we may even get them sooner.
I'm not certain whether my calculations accurately take into account the lux slider - we would benefit from a 2nd warrior in capital and ivory + wines connected.
Also costs of granary and any unit excess (prior to settling 2nd town), but these would be met out of selling starting techs to backwards AI.

I think Magellan's is likely to be a better bet

Sounds good.

if we are the first to Writing, I favor a CoL & Philosophy path to get us to Republic first.

Let's postpone this decision until we have discovered Writing.

Then capital continues at ave of sl over 15bpt - I've assumed 15.

As long as it's a Settler Factory, the average is 16 bpt. After that, it's higher.

What the result with 16 bpt for the capital?

As long as it's a Settler Factory, the average is 16 bpt. After that, it's higher.

What the result with 16 bpt for the capital?

1bpt extra whilst researching CoL would leave us about 10 beakers short of shaving a turn off CoL (after 15 turns accumulate an extra 15 beakers but require 25 beakers on last turn). More likely we get extra beakers from other towns by working 2gpt tile (eg roaded river tile)

I agree we delay the decision till we discover writing - the importance of thinking about it now is to consider maximising commerce where practical so we have the opportunity

Sounds valid to me, Andro. :thumbsup:

And as you pointed out - still conservative, if we have need we could assign scientists in 2nd and 3rd towns - in urgency cases.

We'll take another estimation when we know writing. :scan:

We can start now, can't we? :hammer:

I think Magellan's is likely to be a better bet and timed with cranking out cavs should be able to set up the end game.
I mentioned it before, but ask again - how deep are we likely to have to go with research - is cavalry enough? Maybe carracks and cavs (to transport our cav armies?)
I think for now we should think cavs. Ignore the upper branch completely and if necessary (and the AI surprises us big time) we capture TGL to get the upper branch techs. ;)

That does not solve the GA question... :sad:
Let's see who builds GLH... :evil:

We can start now, can't we?

I will as soon as I can. Maybe tomorrow.

Things are going well for the Portuguese. They met the Zulu in 3650 and didn't trade. They met the Russians in 3500 and first bought WC and 10 gold from the Zulu for Al, then BW, CB, 15 gold and a Slave from the Russians for Al and WC. That's all they both had. Both were met through Scouts only. The land is otherwise clear. Screen-shot coming up.

Now I have to remake the spread-sheet. Perhaps we can shave off another turn on Writing thanks to the Slave.

Edit:

We couldn't get Writing earlier, but don't need the extra Worker any more. The first Settler is three turns earlier and the rest two turns earlier than planned.

A slave?!? :whipped:
Phantastic!! :bounce:

Let'm road, let'm road!

Road Ivory then wheat then wine I'd suggest? :hmm:


We'll get lots of opportunities to buy slaves this game. Let's keep our eyes (erm CA2 and mapstat) open. :scan:
Let's hope we always have a tech to pay with...

They met the Zulu in 3650 ... They met the Russians in 3500 ...

Have all the expansionist tribes been put on an island together? ... just to make sure we get no goody huts :mischief:

a Slave from the Russians

:goodjob:

Now I have to remake the spread-sheet. Perhaps we can shave off another turn on Writing thanks to the Slave.
Hopefully we get to remake spreadsheet lots of times due to extra slaves (still, I dare say other teams will get their share too)

Let'm road, let'm road!

Road Ivory then wheat then wine I'd suggest? :hmm:



Perhaps we have greater need of roading to future town sites ... a turn or 2 taken off time for settler to get there can make the difference in beating AI

roading to future town sites

Well, a Worker and a Slave is a great road-making team. They are free to road in 2270 BC.

We also need to hook up that Incense. Rivers going to Wheat in the SW and SE, another river NE. Sure good we made that Settler factory.

4000 BC _0 Found Caspar's Castle Ca>Wi. Worker1 i. Scout N, NW.

3950 BC _1 Scout N, N.

3900 BC _2 Scout E, SE.

3850 BC _3 Scout E, NE.

3800 BC _4 Caspar's Castle Wi>Ca. Scout S, SE.

3750 BC _5 Caspar's Castle Curragh. Warrior S. Worker1 r. Scout S.

3700 BC _6 Warrior N. Scout SE, S.

3650 BC _7 Caspar's Castle Iv1>Wi. Warrior f. Scout S, SW. Meet Zululand.

3600 BC _8 Worker1 SW, SW. Scout SW, W.

3550 BC _9 Scout S, W.

3500 BC 10 Caspar's Castle Granary, Cultural Expansion, Iv1>Wi. Meet Russia. Zululand WC+10<Al. Russia Slave+BW+CB+15<Al+WC. Curragh W, SW. Scout W, SW. Slave1 SW.

3450 BC 11 Curragh W, W, W. See two new borders. Slave1 SW. Scout S, SE.

3400 BC 12 Meet America. Connect Ivory. Worker1 i. Slave1 r. Curragh SE, S, W. Meet Celts. Scout SE, SE. America Mas+35<WC. Celts 10<WC. CC Iv1>Wh.

3350 BC 13 Scout E, NE. Curragh SE, S, SW.

3300 BC 14 Curragh SE, S, SW. Scout E, E. Meet Arabia. They have TW.

3250 BC 15 Scout E, E. Locate Zululand. Curragh SE, S, W. CC Wh>Iv2.

3200 BC 16 Curragh S, S, W. Worker1 E. Scout S, S.

3150 BC 17 First Barbarian. Scout W, SW. Locate Russia. Worker1 C. Curragh SW, W. CC Iv1>Wh. Entertainment 10%.

3100 BC 18 Scout S, S. Slave1 i. Curragh S, SW, N.

3050 BC 19 Curragh NW, N. Scout S, S.

3000 BC 20 Curragh NW, N. Scout E, E. Meet Ottomans 30<Al. 110 gold is not enough for a Zulu Slave.

EDIT:

Bought Slave from Zulu for 102 gold and 1 gpt. We can still make Writing in time going minus 1 gold in the interturn after 3000 BC, then reducing science spending by one beaker per turn.

To continue, we need to follow the plan in the attached spread-sheet. If anyone has any problems understanding the spread-sheet, please let us know instead of just playing on!

What is not in the spread-sheet is the need to reduce science spending three turns before the discovery of Writing in order to win some cash. I am sure everyone is familiar with this.

I also hope everyone can operate a four-turn settler factory. One has to check the worked tiles and raise science spending everytime a Settler is produced and then reduce science spending and move one citizen from the Forest to the roaded BG two turns later after growth.

At the current turn, we have 110 gold and Zululand has a Worker which costs more. We could borrow 15 gold from the Arabs for 1 gpt. That should cover it.

I wouldn't do it. Anyone for?

EDIT:

Added spread-sheet.

I cannot see any attachments. :dunno:

You need to submit the 3000BC save here (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm.php).

I'm torn about the slave, need to look at the save, imo it depends on our scout, our contacts, granary and writing timing.
Another slave might pay himself by connecting luxury and secondary towns more quickly... :hmm:

slaves optimized
In general, putting a slave and a worker together is not always best use imo. You waste 1.5 worker turns for the move. That only pays off if that road is urgent. It might also make sense if the tile-to-road is the only one, the worker can reach on the road system.
Usually slaves are best used if they can road a tile for a worker to improve it (mine, water) later so one only loses 0.5 worker turns for moving.


edit:
I attached a first dotmap for discussions.
http://xs132.xs.to/xs132/08433/spooks_dot_map185.jpg.xs.jpg (http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs132&d=08433&f=spooks_dot_map185.jpg)
I'd settle in this order:
red
blue
cyan
green
brown
yellow
pink

I like this setup better.
Building order to be discussed.

Remember, we are going for a fast win...

For Paul: http://img507.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sssasaddas1233mw8.jpg

Great start, now if can just see the save :drool:

In SP I almost invariably buy slaves, preferably for gpt. If I cant fund my deficit, I borrow. Not only do slaves pay for themselves, they hamstring the AI and with gpt payments to AI they reduce possibility of early dow (remember the AI are likely to be much more crowded than we are.

With respect to crowding, I expect to see a rush of AI settlers to spoil our lovely dot maps. I'm keen to know where closest AI are so we know which sites we need to make a run for soonest.

3150 BC 17 First Barbarian
Do we consider escort for settlers? (return to CC immed upon ensuring settler arrives safely) - comes at cost of less mp and hence more lux tax. Using F3 tells if any active barb camps near, but camps can appear in the inter turn.

Once we get writing we are at risk of demands. My thoughts are if overseas AI demands we naturally refuse and welcome the WHs; if AI on our island demands we cave at present and then sell writing off to our island for what we can get. Otherwise we wait till we have CoL before selling writing. Any thoughts?

Embassies - I would hold off until we have more money (skimming off overseas AI with old techs) unless we get dow and need an ally.

Re dot maps - We should see more when we can see the save, but I wonder if we could squeeze a town 2E of CC so we can share the cow when in republic (not that long away if we are successful with slingshot as planned). This requires moving blue dot 1NW. Is the cyan dot Yilar has moved to forest by the southern wheat still on the river? I cant be certain from the image. I do like the extra town on that southern river per Yilar's dotmap. I suspect green might be the first to fall to the AI - all those lovely incense hills and a BG to boot. Looks like crappy terrain to north (tundra) and to south (desert). These might make good spots for reservations to preserve ailing AI.

Slaves and roading. I agree with Paul here, I prefer to let the slaves waste a move to non roaded tile in preference to normal worker who can achieve more in that worker turn. Thus I set slaves continuously roading to provide workers with irrigation and mining tasks.

I cannot see any attachments.

You need to submit the 3000BC save

I know. I'm sorry, I ran out of time yesterday.

I'd settle in this order:
red

I'd put Red one more step SW for more territory and score and more even distribution of corruption and wastage (first city close to capital means very low c&w there and high everywhere else).

Red first is appealing, it could produce Workers, but this site is safe from AI intrusion. Perhaps a city to the SE first. The Zulu are south-east of us, the Russians south. The visible city is Moscow.

The Ottomans came from the north. The Arabs I guess are in the "far" east.

In the west on another landmass we have America north of Celts.

In SP I almost invariably buy slaves, preferably for gpt. If I cant fund my deficit, I borrow. Not only do slaves pay for themselves, they hamstring the AI and with gpt payments to AI they reduce possibility of early dow (remember the AI are likely to be much more crowded than we are.
:agree: gpt is even better then giving our lump sum.
With respect to crowding, I expect to see a rush of AI settlers to spoil our lovely dot maps. I'm keen to know where closest AI are so we know which sites we need to make a run for soonest.
Looks like we indeed will have to push to SE first.
It also looks like another coastal site would be appealing to send out another curragh soon...
So many temptations... :lol:
Do we consider escort for settlers? (return to CC immed upon ensuring settler arrives safely) - comes at cost of less mp and hence more lux tax. Using F3 tells if any active barb camps near, but camps can appear in the inter turn.
We should. :shifty:
Once we get writing we are at risk of demands. My thoughts are if overseas AI demands we naturally refuse and welcome the WHs; if AI on our island demands we cave at present and then sell writing off to our island for what we can get. Otherwise we wait till we have CoL before selling writing. Any thoughts?
Agree - unless we get slaves offered and our deficite is too high... ;)
Embassies - I would hold off until we have more money (skimming off overseas AI with old techs) unless we get dow and need an ally.
:agree:
Re dot maps - We should see more when we can see the save, but I wonder if we could squeeze a town 2E of CC so we can share the cow when in republic (not that long away if we are successful with slingshot as planned). This requires moving blue dot 1NW. Is the cyan dot Yilar has moved to forest by the southern wheat still on the river? I cant be certain from the image. I do like the extra town on that southern river per Yilar's dotmap.
Agreed. I'd even move it 1SW, that should also be on the river and saves the forest for 2nd shield at size 2 or chop.

I'd put Red one more step SW for more territory and score and more even distribution of corruption and wastage (first city close to capital means very low c&w there and high everywhere else).
You mean moving the rank 1 town closer to or away from the capital affects corruption in other towns? :dubious:
I doubt that. The corruption formular does only include the rank and distance and does not involve the lower ranked towns' corruption. :nono:
Red first is appealing, it could produce Workers, but this site is safe from AI intrusion. Perhaps a city to the SE first. The Zulu are south-east of us, the Russians south. The visible city is Moscow.
Right, save red for later...
The Ottomans came from the north. The Arabs I guess are in the "far" east.
On our continent? :eek:
Then green dot indeed might be impossible to take... :sad:
...peacefully. :evil:

Great start

One point behind klarius.

now if can just see the save

You're welcome!

The corruption formula does only include the rank and distance

So low rank, large distance is similar to high rank, small distance. But low rank, small distance can't be beat.

One point behind klarius.
I bet he already bought that slave... ;)

Ill bet Klarius maximised growth which we sacrificed to maximise commerce ... time will tell

Territory graph at 3000BC shows only Ivan with a 2nd town - it claims 10 tiles which suggests they settled 1SW or 1W of green dot, 1NW of cyan dot or brown or pink dots (latter 2 unlikely). By 2150BC Klarius (with presumably granary first) had overtaken Ivan in territory.

I bet he already bought that slave.

We already did. We have two and no money. Must meet someone to get some more.

Got it :D

Had a look at the save

Things are looking good :king:
Worker tasks
- worker 1 chops forest this IT giving granary in 1
- slave 1 completes irrigating wheat in 6 (2 turns till grow size 5, 1 cycle of 3 turn growth, then 2 turn growth at 5fpt)
- slave 2 connects wine in 12 turns which will help lux

Builds
per spread-sheet
- granary completes this turn with chop, then 2 turn warrior for mp / settler escort, then 4 turn SF

Research
writing currently 12 turns, spread-sheet indicates should come down to 11
spread-sheet shows phil next, my preference is to go CoL and try for the sling shot

Dot map
I expect the AI to ruin our dot map plans, so we will need to be adaptable.
I see 2 valid options for first settler
a) green dot - this one may be a now or never decision, I expect this spot to go first since there is crap terrain to north and Ottomen came from there and Arabs in our east (unless there are resources which the AI knows and we dont at one of the other sites). I favour moving it 1SW - we would settle a turn sooner (only 3 moves there) increasing our success probability, still 1 tile from incense and will be a powerful site out of despo with all those hills.
b) cyan dot - also likely to go soon, although Russia appears to have lots of good lands to settle. Again I would shift it, this time 1SE to be directly S of wheat - this puts it beside an incense that was previously in the fog. We would then backfill a closer one at Yilar's spot (2SE,1S of CC which I have called orange dot) later. This site has more moves to get there and will be sped up a turn once worker roads the ivory tile it is currently chopping. I favour this site 2nd.
c) 3rd option is to get a close town in earlier - either red dot, orange dot, or blue dot (? moved 1NW to be able to later share cow)

Barbs
F3 reveals currently barbs out there - my plan is to move warrior 1 turn ahead of settler to scout the land for barbs, also allows us to spot AI settler a turn earlier.

Finances
Currently 8g at -1gpt, I will need to borrow money unless can find AI to trade with soon. I intend keeping science as high as lux allows


I wont be able to play until 12 hours at earliest, hopefully we can decide on the 2 questions I posed

1) What to research after writing?
2) Where send first settler?

My suggestions in dot map

1) Phil for lit or take our chances and go for CoL hoping one of the 20+ other civs didn't go writing first? I'm really unsure. If we go for lit we should build great lib and turn off techs. After we get phil.

2) Build on red. Doesn't matter which dot map you take, just plant on red first :)

1) Phil for lit or take our chances and go for CoL hoping one of the 20+ other civs didn't go writing first? I'm really unsure. If we go for lit we should build great lib and turn off techs. After we get phil.

Yes GLib is a valid strat here. Requires a site to build it - 400sh from our early powerhouse does drain us from military (and curraghs if red dot). I dont see any powerhouse site other than the capital, which I think would be a waste. Good probability of getting, but no certainty. Having taken phil and free lit we would be at the mercy of neighbouring AI demanding it - if we refuse we are hamstrung in defending as our 2 best producers will be on setter factory and wonder, if we cave in we risk losing out in a wonder cascade. The other negative in my opinion is the general slowing of tech pace as we wait for the small AI (remember this is a crowded map) to reseach techs. This is only DG level pelago map - with the area we can see, I would expect to outresearch the AI in middle ages and therefore get to cavs (and / or chivalry) sooner for earlier domination date. GLib has advantage of saving money for short rushing (+/- resource connect / disconnect upgrading, assuming iron :please:). This could be done to conquer the 4 AI on our starting island sooner.

The advantage of rep slingshot is 2 fold - firstly we get out of despotism earlier (who knows how long we would have to wait for AI to research) allowing much increased commerce either for money to rush builds or science to reach techs for better units sooner, secondly IMO we will reach the techs needed to win this game earlier. The risk is we dont get the slingshot if AI research directly writing philosophy. Some AI will research writing, many will be researching to poly or maths - going by my trial run, the AI wont research writing until after we would have got philosphy, I think our prospects of the slingshot are high (I'm guessing over 75% likely) and if we fail we can still research lit, at likely monopoly. IMO small risk, big gain.


2) Build on red. Doesn't matter which dot map you take, just plant on red first :)

Great for getting a powerhouse town up quickly with early curraghs helping get more contacts, but less chance of getting some of the prime land. I'm not totally against this idea however, as we can get those town sites back later :hammer:. I see enough incense in differing directions that whichever we can hook up soonest is probably best. Both red and cyan have a food bonus tile (after irrigating) helping to speed growth which is a factor in favour of these.

Barbs
F3 reveals currently barbs out there - my plan is to move warrior 1 turn ahead of settler to scout the land for barbs, also allows us to spot AI settler a turn earlier.
You read my mind.
1) What to research after writing?
2) Where send first settler?
1) let's decide when we got Writing and see what our contacts got.
2) let's try for some difficult sites first - unless we see rivals early. Maybe the escort should not be one but four turns (send right after build) ahead? :hmm:

Worker tasks

Please note that there are some more Worker tasks in the spread-sheet. (Road BG3.)

The Settler Factory is a bit too big, since we have only 2 MP and 2 Lux. The 17 gold at size 6 only nets 16 at 10% Entertainment.

We could mine the BG and chop two Forests. Each Forest would speed a Settler one turn and the population would shrink to 4..6 instead of 5..7, which would allow us to run 0% Entertainment.

Only we need to build roads as well. We could build a Worker in the Capital.

warrior for mp / settler escort

An advantage with settling at Red first is that we don't need to send an escort, and then the new city would build a Warrior or two to function as escort. And we could keep research up. Otherwise we can forget the Sling-Shot.

then 4 turn SF

The second Settler takes five turns!

spread-sheet shows phil next

That was only as example, in order to be able to compare alternatives. We said we'd decide once we have discovered Writing, i.e. in Yilar's turn-set.

Currently 8g at -1gpt, I will need to borrow money unless can find AI to trade with soon.

Use that Curragh. There must be lots of islands, and they must all be inhabited. Look across the water, don't map the islands we already know. But stay on Coast on the last turn.

1) What to research after writing?

You won't play then. It's 10 turns only.

2) Where send first settler?

I'm for Red, see above.

I agree with Yilar on founding red dot first. It can take advantage of the improved ivory when CC is not using it, will be founded a turn sooner than green and 4 turns sooner than cyan due to the long walk. Going to Red doesn't require an escort, and the city would be able to replace the MP warrior that will leave for escorting the second settler.

I would go for Green second just because the settler can get there in 3 turns instead of 6. Slaves should focus on roading from the wines to cyan to reduce the walk of the third settler towards Cyan.

EDIT: cross posted with PF. We said the same...

Lit/GrLib seems too risky for me. I'd rather focus on the Republic sling shot and if we miss, we still have many beakers towards getting out of despotism.

Please note that there are some more Worker tasks in the spread-sheet. (Road BG3.)

The Settler Factory is a bit too big, since we have only 2 MP and 2 Lux. The 17 gold at size 6 only nets 16 at 10% Entertainment.

We could mine the BG and chop two Forests. Each Forest would speed a Settler one turn and the population would shrink to 4..6 instead of 5..7, which would allow us to run 0% Entertainment.

Only we need to build roads as well. We could build a Worker in the Capital.




The problem we have with 4-6 turn SF is we need a BG mined.
Whilst awaiting the necessary shields we could slot in a worker between settlers 1 and 2 (delays settler 2 by 1 turn), that could chop a forest to speed settler 3 by a turn giving 3rd settler at same time but now operating size 4-6 and up 1 worker.
The downside is some worker inefficiencies as worker 1 would be required to road ivory after chopping, then move to BG3, mine it (completes turn 30 ready to go for 4 turn SF), then move to forest (leaving BG3 to be roaded by slaves as per spreadsheet) for 1 turn of chopping to assist worker 2 to get the chop timed with settler 3. One worker would then return to grass ivory to mine it so we can use higher commerce tile in settler factory config (and red dot can use wine and, when CC size 4, plains ivory.

The problem we have with 4-6 turn SF is we need a BG mined.
Whilst awaiting the necessary shields

You misunderstand me. Let the Settler Factory develop as planned in the spread-sheet. Then, afterwards, we have the option to mine and chop in order to get settlers, say the third and the fifth, quicker and the population smaller. If we want to.

Perhaps the two Slaves should rather go on to road the next BG to the east and then the plains to the south in order to improve access to the lands in the SE, and the Worker road towards Red. That's what most people have suggested. I just wanted to suggest an alternative.

What about my suggestion?
Only settler 2 is delayed (by 1 turn) and we have an extra worker who can more rapidly assist in roading to future settling sites.
I think timing the worker and settler in with when we cant get sufficient shields for 4 turner makes most sense.

edit
Majority favour settling red dot first (denyd and markh haven't commented, Paul favours "more difficult" site), so red dot it is.

What about my suggestion?

I think we would lose a turn on Writing.

Fair enough, I'll play now following spreadsheet with setter going to red dot

Progress so far I have paused because I dont think the spreadsheet makes sense

3000BC Pre turn
- all's well

IT
CC completes granary -> warrior

Turn 1 2950BC
Zulus have 2 workers (? settler) for sale - unfortunately we cant afford
(10gpt gets 1 slave and 50g - we then have 57g at -11gpt, even meeting new AI wont allow that)
curragh spots border - safe crossing to west of Celts
thanks to granary we now run -2gpt - with prospect of more contacts I hold off buying gold with gpt

Turn 2 2900BC
We meet Greece - trade WC for wheel + 10g
lux -> 20% due to growth

IT
CC warrior -> settler

Turn 3 2850BC
lux -> 10% due to mp
scout spots blue border in south (not sure if same island) - contact next turn

Turn4 2800BC
Scout contacts Babylon - they are down 3 techs and broke (lets hope they have some surplus workers)

Turn 5 2750BC
Curragh spots yellow border south of Greece (? another island)

OK we can now do 5fpt as wheat irrigates interturn, and build settler in 2 turns - spreadsheet says 4fpt to grow in 3 - I dont understand why so stop and pause (edit I suspect the spreadsheet was based on pre slave irrigating wheat).


Its nearly midnight so I'll complete turns in the morning

OK we can now do 5fpt as wheat irrigates interturn, and build settler in 2 turns - spreadsheet says 4fpt to grow in 3 - I dont understand why so stop and pause (edit I suspect the spreadsheet was based on pre slave irrigating wheat).

You are right! Will you make a new spread-sheet, or should I? Perhaps there is an extra Worker in there, or Settlers one turn earlier?

Stupid of me not to notice this. But you see more when you actually play.

Thinking about this a bit I propose growing CC in 2 and building settler.
We will then be size 5 and insuffic shields for 4 turn settler.
We can do a 2 turn worker. We then need the grass ivory mined for sufficiency shields for 4 turner (6, 6+2, 7, 7+2). It just so happens ivory will be mined in 5 turns, just in time for the first 4 turn settler.
How this compares to current spreadsheet is we get an extra worker in exchange for 1 turn delay (under normal circumstances worker would be 2 turns delay) on settlers 2 onwards. This in essence is producing a 1 turn worker complete with population recovery, something which usually requires railroads.

Will you make a new spread-sheet, or should I? Perhaps there is an extra Worker in there, or Settlers one turn earlier?


I'm sorry but I have tied myself in knots with trying to adapt your spreadsheet (I'm more used to working with Offa's), so I'll leave that for you - besides its late and I'm too likely to make mistakes if I continue now.

I haven't considered earlier settlers - an extra worker may allow that with chops, but I don't think we have the necessary shields otherwise.

OK continuing on
Turn 5 2750BC
Plan to keep CC at 5fpt, insert worker after first settler as described above.
We can do 2 chops timed to speed 2 settlers, but not until BG mined so we have enough shields to run 4 turner at size 4-6.
BTW we have multiple options for horses red dot, blue dot and north of the northern lake

Turn 6 2700BC
Curragh contacts Egypt - sell WC for 10g (currently have 4g at -3gpt), so still avoid need for purchasing gold
Slave joins its fellow on the wines to speed connection

IT
CC settler -> worker

Turn 7 2650BC
Settler arrives at red dot
Scout spots lellowy border south of Babylon, but ? on another island - next curragh needs to go south from red dot
Lux remains on 10% despite shrinking aswe still require 1 happy face from lux at size 5
Thanks to running 90% science I think we are going to make up 1 turn on writing (CA2 shows us 8 beakers ahead of spreadsheet)

Turn 8 2600BC
Haunted Hollow founded at red dot - it starts a warrior, this could be changed to curragh, but I think we need warrior first to escort settlers to other sites
Decide to move scout rather than wait for yellow to come into view and are rewarded with contact with Korea ? on a different island to yellow. Trade CB for 10g.
Writing requires only 27 beakers now, so we will make it in 2 turns (with 1 beaker to spare)
Babylon must have popped a hut - they have25g - we relieve tham of it for wheel (which all other AI on our island have. Our finances are now a healthy 42g with -2gpt.
Egypt and Greece now have iron - trade Greece masonry for IW - HH has iron in its radius after expansion (as well as horses)
Actually can wring a bit more commerce by giving HH wines and CC uses oysters as shields to spare this turn -> science down to 70%, still writing in 2

IT
CC worker -> settler

Turn 9 2550BC
Curragh spies what appears to unihabited island east of Egypt, but no, we spy Roman settler pair on a mountain - Pottery relieves them of their starting 10g
We can get all Arab gold 184 + myst for iron (the AI will likely get it soon as Zulu will not give myst + all 28 of its gold). I do the deal, also securing 28g from Zulus.
Worker 2 starts road to east -> BG2
Scouts finds Babylon city built on 7 ivory!

IT
Wring researched, I set to CoL in 19 turns at 100% science (next player can switch if that is the decision)
Ottomen settle to our NE near brown dot

Turn 10 2500BC
Our 4 turn SF is now operational with HH using wines when CC size 5.
I have not moved worker 1 nor our 2 slaves, they have all just completed tasks. We have option of prioritising roads or developing BG3 so we can chop twice to speed 2 settlers and run size 4-6. If prioritising BG3 all 3 units can go there this turn and mine it in 3 turns, slaves can then road it whilst worker 1 moves to a forest for a chop.
F3 tells us barb camp near CC, next settler requires an escort.
We can sell IW to Ottomen for 25g, we have no immed need of gold, so I would hold onto it in case we get a slave opportunity. We are also up tech on Babs, so have slave buying opportunities there. With Arabs or Russians, I would buy with gpt rather than cash to reduce risk of dow. Certainly we should hang onto writing unless extortion.

The save is here (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm14/Spooks_SG014_BC2550_01.SAV)


Roster
Più Freddo - got us off and running
Andronicus - just played
Yilar - up and raring to go
Paul#42 - on deck
Markh
Denyd
ControlFreak

We will then be size 5 and insuffic shields for 4 turn settler. We can do a 2 turn worker.

Sounds good. Research should be enough if you can trade for cash. If not, then Writing comes a turn later and we have won growth instead. The Settler for Red comes very soon anyway and the rest only one turn later than planned, which in turn was two turns earlier than without slaves. So we're still one turn up. And a Worker.

I will have to skip this round or bump me down the list. I have a bunch of midterms this week and I have to study :(

Amended roster

Più Freddo - got us off and running
Andronicus - just played
Paul#42 - up
Markh - on deck
Denyd
ControlFreak
Yilar

We need a decision on research - I support going for rep slingshot.
Also need to decide next site - I put up a dot map (for discussion, I'm sure there will be other opinions)

Haunted Hollow, Spooky Swamp and Ghoul's Graveyard are the best I can do

Let's use these names and then continue always with a different letter.

We have the same territory as klarius, but lower score. I guess they have met even more alien tribes?

Paul#42 - up

:sleep: :sleep: :sleep:

:sleep: chrr... :eek: what? Who, me? :rolleyes:

Okay, I'm here. :salute:

I got it. Check the status and post my thoughts. I'm probably able to play in 24 hours...

We have the same territory as klarius, but lower score. I guess they have met even more alien tribes?

IIRC score is a function of territory and pop (happy and contents). If other teams went for max growth early (which I suspect Klarius did) then they would have had bigger pop earlier and got their second town out earlier (ours was towards the end of my turnset, theirs may have been towards the beginning), This would give them more pop and territory points. What we lose on this we will hopefully gain on commerce.

I got it. Check the status and post my thoughts. I'm probably able to play in 24 hours...

We still require a decision on the sling shot, getting writing a turn earlier improves our odds.

Next town site - do we make a run for green?

HH builds - ? warrior, curragh, worker
Other town builds - ? warrior, worker

MM
- CC is set for 4 turner using cow, wheat, 2 ivories, BG3 and wines when size 6. Due to the extra commerce at size 6 giving a second happy face we can leave lux slider at 10%. Moving out the mp to scout ahead of next settler will obviously upset this, but with barbs around, I think it must be done.
- HH can currently use wines for max commerce when CC size 5 (next commerce is corrupted so dont give the ivory). Once wheat is irrigated it will grow quicker, but can we spare a worker yet.

Worker tasks
I outlined previously a way to get CC to size 4-6 4 turner with chops (requires mining BG3), but not sure we need to do this as lux only req 10% provided we have the 2 mp's. It remains an option.
Otherwise priority seems to be getting a road network to get our settlers quickly to future sites, then developing these sites.
Any opportunities for slaves I think we should take. (wish I could have afforded the 2 Zulu ones at the start of my set)

Trade
I have tended to shy away from trading alpha to overseas AI, I dont think it matters any more. Obviously holding onto writing as long as poss is essential to sling shot success if we go that direction. I would not refuse an extortion from AI on our continent yet, but of course overseas AI are impotent pre MM, so they just give us war happies.

Great work so far! :thumbsup:

After first glance - some things I'd like to discuss:

expansion
1. move blue dot 1SE? Even if CC is not doing settlers one day, with all those hills around I'm pretty sure it will be working the cattle most of the time even at size 7+. I'd rather move blue dot towards the horses, also saving the forest (and a possible BG underneath)... :dunno:

2. Should we settle our next towns outside in, i.e. try for green, cyan, yellow dots first by sending our escorting warrior there 2-3 turns early and the settler following if the site can be taken uncontested?
I'd favor that.

diplomacy
Now that we got opportunity to establish embassies, should we start some phony wars to
a) get war happiness by doing the tie-peace-to-alliance thing? (only with remote rivals)
b) get some civs an early GA to encourage them to build a wonder (for us)?
(better with local rivals)
So far only Russia and Ottomen are building Oracles in their capitals...
I'm thinking about bribing Russia and Ottomen against "hemmed in and defensive-UU Babs" :hmm:
Of course not before our scout has left that area.
This might also give us more slave offers - most of which however by Hammu whom we cannot trade with, then... :mischief:

Oh, Andro did you try that <shift-d>-trick on turn 7 when you saw that Incan/Persian border SW of Babylon? :hmm:

worker actions
I agree the BG 2SE of CC is important to improve.
But more urgent than getting CC down by one pop to keep luxury at 100% I'd consider to build roads towards our next sites.
CC at size 5-6 at 90% is still more commerce than sizes 4-5 at 100% if we use a 2cpt tile. Most of our other towns won't lose any commerce at 90% - unless they need the happiness anyway.
Otoh to get two 3-turn-settlers is still appealing... :groucho:
And I'm not sure if we can have our workers unprotected so far out there.. .:shifty:

So all workers on the BG now, mine, road and then the slaves keep roading towards cyan dot while the native chops a forest for quicker settlers #4 and #6. Okay?
Or 2.0 workers (1 native and 2 slaves or 2 natives) keep choping to speed up settlers #3 and #4 according to this "plan":

workers move (30)
road BG3 (31)
mine BG3 (33)
move (34)
chop (36)
move (37)
chop (39)

settlers in CC:
#2 (33 7.0 -> 5.0)
#3 (36 6.5 -> 4.5)
#4 (39 6.0 -> 4.0)

downsides:
no roading of choped tiles... :shake:
quick-and-dirty action :hmm:
:dunno:


production
CC will need the wine next turn...
How about HH taking the forest to get the warrior (4/10) in two at loss of 1fpt and 1cpt? CC would gain 2cpt in the span... :hmm:

2. Should we settle our next towns outside in

For strategically important land, yes. (Incense, SE.) But most important is then to get a productive core and build veteran Horsemen.

Now that we got opportunity to establish embassies

For what money?

HH builds - ? warrior, curragh, worker
Other town builds - ? warrior, worker

Sounds reasonable. HH is on Plains, so irrigation is needed before it makes sense to build a Curragh. Hope another Worker can do it, so build order can be like suggested.

Forget about improving CC any more at this time.

Good to see some discussion - you make some good points Paul.


expansion
1. move blue dot 1SE? Even if CC is not doing settlers one day, with all those hills around I'm pretty sure it will be working the cattle most of the time even at size 7+. I'd rather move blue dot towards the horses, also saving the forest (and a possible BG underneath)... :dunno:

I agree my blue dot is very crowded. My thinking is in republic (which may be only 22-25 turns away), CC is the only town which can use the +1 food oysters. Give it also the irrigated wheat (since HH already has 1) and it has +5 food without the cow, so can grow quickly and use all the hills it wants. Blue dot using the irr cow would give another +5 food town, it would then use mainly tiles to the west. This was only an idea, I'm happy to go along with wider spacing, but then CC would use both cow and oysters (or waste oysters) and HH both wheat which would require mining these tiles for optimisation (more worker tasks). I attach a tile allocation shot (for when towns reach size 12) which confirms the crowded nature - options include using blue dot as 2 turn worker factory after chopping a granary. Note moving blue dot 1SE loses 1 tile to north and only gains 1 to south, so no extra tiles avail. If we want more tiles we would need to move green dot to your original suggestion 1NE (the more I think about it the more I like it).
(actually moving blue dot 1NW gives an extra tile for blue to use, frees up tiles in south for orange and green and doesnt settle the forest - in case its a BG :dunno:)

2. Should we settle our next towns outside in, i.e. try for green, cyan, yellow dots first by sending our escorting warrior there 2-3 turns early and the settler following if the site can be taken uncontested?
I'd favor that.
If we are going to make a play for green then I think we need to go for it now, (I would if SP game). Settler completes in 3 and site could be settled in 6 turns. Note green 1NW could also be settled in 6 turns as road on BG will be complete speeding progress there. Again I would send warrior on ahead.
I'm not so sure that cyan and yellow are going to be such powerhouses to warrant slipping them ahead of orange - so my suggestion is green, orange, cyan, pink, yellow.
Orange would need chops to speed a rax (after warrior / worker?) to free up tiles. Same goes for green.
If we want the iron connected we should consider another coastal town 2 S of HH (alt is to get culture expansion - not my preference) but this is not a priority - horses should come first.


diplomacy
Now that we got opportunity to establish embassies, should we start some phony wars to
a) get war happiness by doing the tie-peace-to-alliance thing? (only with remote rivals)
b) get some civs an early GA to encourage them to build a wonder (for us)?
(better with local rivals)
So far only Russia and Ottomen are building Oracles in their capitals...
I'm thinking about bribing Russia and Ottomen against "hemmed in and defensive-UU Babs" :hmm:
Of course not before our scout has left that area.
This might also give us more slave offers - most of which however by Hammu whom we cannot trade with, then... :mischief:
I'm wary of us getting into any war on our island until we get sev rax and horses connected. I'm fine with OS phoney wars linked to peace treaties though - perhaps Celts and Americans?

Oh, Andro did you try that <shift-d>-trick on turn 7 when you saw that Incan/Persian border SW of Babylon? :hmm:
Can only do this if your unit touches the border, seeing the border is not enough - unfortunately the border does not reach our island. I did consider leaving scout there in case a unit appears, but decided against it and indeed further exploration found the Koreans.

worker actions
I agree the BG 2SE of CC is important to improve.
But more urgent than getting CC down by one pop to keep luxury at 100% I'd consider to build roads towards our next sites.
CC at size 5-6 at 90% is still more commerce than sizes 4-5 at 100% if we use a 2cpt tile. Most of our other towns won't lose any commerce at 90% - unless they need the happiness anyway.
Otoh to get two 3-turn-settlers is still appealing... :groucho:
And I'm not sure if we can have our workers unprotected so far out there.. .:shifty:
I think we are better to run size 5-7 and just road rather than chop. Perhaps a chop of forest to speed a curragh for HH and later raxes for our military producers, but this is probably during the following turnset. Running size 5-7 maximises our commerce.


production
CC will need the wine next turn...
How about HH taking the forest to get the warrior (4/10) in two at loss of 1fpt and 1cpt? CC would gain 2cpt in the span... :hmm:
Well CC does need to use the wines at size 6, so HH uses the wheat. Dont switch HH to forest. This doesnt change commerce at all (both wheat and forest are unroaded river tiles), it doesnt speed warrior production as HH will have 6 shields in the box so 3spt working forest no advantage over 2spt using wheat. It does cost growth, as you point out.

For what money?

We currently have 267g and getting more whenever we meet AI

Embassy with Americans costs 30g, Celts 34g

Americans are slightly ahead of Celts in score and in power - both are backward lacking alpha and IW so a long tome till they will bother us. I recommend immed embassies, dow America and MA Celts tied to peace (Celts also down mysticism and wheel)

We currently have 267g

Well, then!

Andro, your TAT (tile allocation table) :D is convincing. :thumbsup:

I agree to put blue dot where you had suggested.

There's little (no?) opposition to doing the slingshot so I'll stick with CoL.

I will start to play now.

But this will take some hours because I'm still witnessing Hamburg's desaster against Hoffenheim (0:3 at half time)... :wallbash:

here is the save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm14/Spooks_SG014_BC2150_01.SAV)

maps

http://xs432.xs.to/xs432/08430/sgotm14_40_map_big971.jpg.xs.jpg (http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs432&d=08430&f=sgotm14_40_map_big971.jpg)http://xs432.xs.to/xs432/08430/sgotm14_40_map_small452.jpg.xs.jpg (http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs432&d=08430&f=sgotm14_40_map_small452.jpg)

embassies

http://xs432.xs.to/xs432/08430/sgotm14_30_emb_celts629.jpg.xs.jpg (http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs432&d=08430&f=sgotm14_30_emb_celts629.jpg)http://xs432.xs.to/xs432/08430/sgotm14_30_emb_america873.jpg.xs.jpg (http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs432&d=08430&f=sgotm14_30_emb_america873.jpg)http://xs432.xs.to/xs432/08430/sgotm14_37_emb_arabs486.jpg.xs.jpg (http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs432&d=08430&f=sgotm14_37_emb_arabs486.jpg)http://xs432.xs.to/xs432/08430/sgotm14_37_emb_ottoman509.jpg.xs.jpg (http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs432&d=08430&f=sgotm14_37_emb_ottoman509.jpg)

detailed turn log

turn 0 (30) 2550 BC
Establish embassy in Washington. Horses and Iron in range.
<img>
Settler standing idle - running out of space early? 100% science - 4bpt :hammer2:.
It seems there is no connection between Celts and Americans - perfect! :thumbsup:

Establish embassy in Entremont. Horses in range.
<img>
Also 100% science. :pat:

Dow America, Resign peace with Celts for MA against America, giving them Alphabet.

No chance to shave a turn off our settler's way to green dot - unless all workers head for the grassland E-NE :nono:
So all to the BG3.

I decide the warrior a turn earlier is worth the turn delay in HH's growth.
HH works forest and CC wine at same commerce, +1 shield - 1 food.
We need that warrior for scouting ahead of the settler.

IBT
Ottoman gain 25g, now offer 50g for IW...
Bab spear from our Iron to horses.

turn 1 (31) 2500 BC
worker1, slave1 road BG. slave2 E.
lux 10% allows MP to leave, warrior1 NE-E.

IBT
HH warrior -> curragh
Russia offers slave :yummy:
Bab spear NE.

turn 2 (32) 2470 BC
Buy slave3 for IW.
slave3 NE-E.
slave2 road BG.
warrior1 E.

IBT
CC settler -> settler
Rome learns Writing
Good thing they seem isolated, still lack IW, Mas, TW, Mys...

turn 3 (33) 2430 BC
warrior1 E on green dot. All empty :scan:
settler NE-E.
worker2 3SW towards HH's wheat. We need food and commerce there.
slave1 SE.

IBT
zzz

turn 4 (34) 2390 BC
warrior1 E on incense, still all clean.
settler E.
worker1 mine BG3.
worker2 2SW-S on wheat.
curragh meets Sumeria (S of Egypt). 1g, just missing Writing...

IBT
barb approaching from N. :run:

turn 5 (35) 2350 BC
warrior1 S, still all clean.
settler E on green dot.
slave1 road plains.
worker2 irrigate wheat.
lux to 0.9.1

IBT
barb enters hill

turn 6 (36) 2310 BC
Ghoul's Graveyard founded on green dot. Starts rax.
Curragh meets Hittites. Sell Mas for 80+20g. (80g native, 20g gifted before)
warrior1 S on Iron. Arab reg warrior from E.

IBT
CC settler -> settler

turn 7 (37) 2270 BC
settler 2SE, cyan dot
warrior1 S.
Embassey in Istanbul for 32g. Awful site.
Iron hooked up.

Embassey in Mecca for 32g. Blessed with Ivory.

IBT
Hittites learn HBR.
barb threatens slave3.
Ottoman settler combo 2E of GG heading S.

turn 8 (38) 2230 BC
settler E-S. slave2 S.
warrior1 S.
Curragh meets Aztecs. 10g, no Mas, Alpha, TW, Mys. sell Alpha for 10+70g.
Hittites won't give HBR for Mys+IW+60g. We wait.
warrior3 kills barb 3NE flawlessly.

IBT
Bab settler combo head N from
Ottoman settler heads east.
HH builds curragh on growth.
Sumeria learns HBR.

turn 9 (39) 2190 BC
worker2 roads wheat.
slave3 E. Worker1 E-N on blue dot to chop.
settler (cyan dot) on wheat.
Trade Pottery to Greece for 10+60g.

IBT
2 reg Arab warriors (heading NE) block our cyan dot :gripe:

turn 10 (40) 2150 BC
settler SW, slave1 SE, slave2 N-E on horses.

after flight
sorry, I moved some units before realizing that it was the final turn :blush:
worker1 and slave3 shall start chopping for rax and first horses in GG.
F3 announces no barb camps around.

:ack: the graphs are not too positive... :sad:

Ok, I got it and the Med Modpack appears to be working fine. If we've got the spreadsheet done for my turn-set I'll need to take a look at it. It'll need to be adjusted since we've got that new slave and have an incoming BW. I'll take a look at the save tomorrow night (backed-up on other games) and play on Tuesday night, so we'll have a lot of time to discuss the turnset.

:ack: the graphs are not too positive... :sad:

Dont get too het up about the graphs - we know we will be behind on score and territory initially as we went slower growth, no early settler. What I find more intriguing is pondering the reason for Ivan's drop in culture rate between turns 40 and 50
Possible reasons could include revolt (? philo -> trade for either poly or CoL and free govt tech) or less likely either losing capital or shifting capital (not suggested by their territory graph). If we make a successful sling shot we should revolt in the following 10 turns which Klarius hasn't, so perhaps they missed / didn't attempt slingshot.

Havnt looked at save yet, but from your pics I wonder at the plan to road the horses near GG. How do you plan to get them in our cultural control? Either we need a temple in GG or another town between GG and cyan dot.
My preference would be to road the horses near HH and claim them with yellow dot.


If we've got the spreadsheet done for my turn-set I'll need to take a look at it
I think the spread-sheet is past its use by date now we have multiple towns. CC just requires being kept on 4 turn settlers whilst maximising use of high commerce tiles. It could use mBG, iCow, iWheat, mGr-ivory, iPl-ivory each turn, oysters when size 6, with HH using wines and 2nd iWheat. We have a couple of extra shields per cycle now BG mined, but that will be used when orange dot is settled.

What I find more intriguing is pondering the reason for Ivan's drop in culture rate between turns 40 and 50
Possible reasons could include revolt (? philo -> trade for either poly or CoL and free govt tech) or less likely either losing capital or shifting capital (not suggested by their territory graph). If we make a successful sling shot we should revolt in the following 10 turns which Klarius hasn't, so perhaps they missed / didn't attempt slingshot.
I think it's from revolting, but maybe to monarchy? To get some AI to know Poly in time is easy in this game. To get anybody research CoL would have been quite a risk... :hmm:
Havnt looked at save yet, but from your pics I wonder at the plan to road the horses near GG. How do you plan to get them in our cultural control?
It was rather to road that tile, not connect the horses. I wanted a connection of our towns in the east - But it might not be the most pressing task maybe... :mischief: :blush:

Have been thinking about some names for our Graveyards (0..6), Cemetaries (7..12) and Nekropolises (13+):

Andronici Abbey
Blighty Bluff
Casper's Castle
Dungeon of Doom
Ectoplasm Emporium
Freaky Favela
Ghoul's Graveyard
Haunted Hollow
Ichor Island
Jeepers Junction
Key Krypt
Laban's Lair
MarkH Morgue
Nightmare Nekropolis
Occult Olympia
Oath-Breaker Ossuary
Paul's Putrefaction
Queasy Quagmire
Ravaged Ruins
Spooky Swamp
Torment Tombs
Uplands of the Undead
Vampire Vaults
Wraith Wastelands
Xhumation Xpanses
Yowling Yilard
Zombie Zone

A bit tight for me and ControlFreak. C is taken, P is taken.

Have been thinking about some names for our Graveyards (0..6), Cemetaries (7..12) and Nekropolises (13+):
:D
great ideas. :thumbsup:

the graphs are not too positive

It seems they have two more cities. We are just about to settle, they might have just settled, but they are still more than one city ahead. Perhaps they didn't build that early Curragh? I don't know.

Our strategies must be quite different, and we must keep to our fast-research path.

That puts me up, I guess.

I will have a look at it tonight and post thoughts.

2 reg Arab warriors (heading NE) block our cyan dot :gripe:

I'm considering moving Cyan 1-SW and Orange 1-E if the Arabs don't get out of the way. Moving Cyan 1-SW (south of current settle position) would keep the free aquaduct on the lake, still have access to the river commerce tiles, gain a hill instead of a mountain and push our border a little farther towards the AI. Moving Orange E would allow the more centrally located horses to be in the border between Green and Orange. I think it's a one tile improvement to the congestion between CC and Blue, also but I haven't dotted a map.

We should also be cautious about settling an upprotected town right next to a bunch of AI attack units (unless we want to sacrifice the town for the sake of a war).

Love the names PF. Since we're going for domination, there eventually be a need for more than 26 towns. We'll get our town names eventually! :satan:

I'm pretty sure the Arabs will head on, we were only unlucky to encounter this divided stack. However if their target (barb camp?) depleted, they might turn right back... :wallbash:

Moving the cyan dot SW is an option - settling right where it is now also. If I look at Andro's size-12-chart, we only lose two plains but have another two deserts and a plains or even a lake to take instead.

I like the tight placement where the city center is almost the one used tile of a town that's closest to the capital. No need to go beyond size 12 in this game.

We should als consider to press hard towards south, there's a lot of unclaimed floodplains there... :groucho:
Maybe our scout should check that area for approaching settlers? :hmm:

I'd rather not settle where the he is now because it seems to be inbetween two good sites. My vote would be to move him South next turn providing a free road towards the south (since the river tiles are bound to be roaded anyway).

The flood plain area is in the neutral zone between Zulu and Russia. Right now, with no military to speak of, isn't it sort of risking putting undefended towns between these agressive civs? Ultimately, I would probably be good to MA with one against the other, and claim these areas by force.

Not having played Demi God that much, how formidable are the troops for the AI. Can we plan to ramp up military enough to take on one foe, or should we MA within our own continent and let them deplete their forces before we start acquiring their lands? How much longer do we think REX will last before we need to get the military going?

I just saw that denyd posted a got it after Paul's set. I will take it after denyd then.

:huh:
bad manners, denyd... :splat:

But you know you could take it, Mark, so I think you stepped back "voluntarily"?

No problem with me, so it's

denyd - up
markh - on deck.

or was it just a got it for the mod pack? :dubious:

Sorry, my mistake - I was about to ask Markh to take the turn while my ISP gets their act together. I lost access from home last night and according to the wife it's not back yet.

Just keep the original order and Markh is now up with me on deck.

But you know you could take it, Mark, so I think you stepped back "voluntarily"?

Yeah, if somebody posts a "got it" you never know whether the player played on already, so it is safer to step back. ;)

Ok, I got it then. :)

I had a short look at the game yesterday. In my opinion we should stick to the dotmap and go for the cyan dot. Settling where the settler is would make the core very crowded if we put a city in between.

I will have another look at it tonight and post a plan for my set.

Yeah, if somebody posts a "got it" you never know whether the player played on already, so it is safer to step back. ;)
good judgement ;)
In my opinion we should stick to the dotmap and go for the cyan dot. Settling where the settler is would make the core very crowded if we put a city in between.
Our discussion was on the situation when Hammu's (?) warriors keep blocking the cyan dot site. We should no spend another turn watching.

As one can see at Andro's tile allocation table, at the current site it would be dense placement, but not (too) crowded. Still all closer core cities will have sufficient tiles to work at size 12.

But cyan dot should be our highest priority and I think the warriors will continue to head NE.


What we need to discuss before you play is the opportunity to make some more dow-and-sign-peace-with-MA tricks on remote rivals. There are some more out there who will likely know each other but might be seperated by sea. Embassies with them cost ~60 bucks each but we'd only need one of them per trick and I think it will pay off.

the worker and the slave on forests are meant to chop for rax and horses.

Embassies with them cost ~60 bucks each but we'd only need one of them per trick

I have made it a rule to establish both embassies before entering a war-alliance pair of agreements. The reason is, that once you get your happiness DoW, you can enter an alliance with the the enemy coupled to the new peace treaty. If you make peace with a tribe with which you have no embassy, you have to wait 20 turns before you can renegotiate and add an alliance. You also have the opportunity to reverse the alliance after 20 turns if the DoW doesn't come.

So in effect, you save no money by failing to establish the second embassy.

What else could we do with the money anyway?

Buy slaves or found deficite research? :dunno:
We'll most likely keep our tech advantage so that's not really a reason...

Anybody care to analyse some couples of AI we'd like to send into the ring? :whipped:

My first idea was to always dow the more backward AI because they are less likely to have something to trade...
Otoh the more advanced might sign peace sooner (providing us wh) because they have something to offer...
Anybody more experienced in this around? :shifty:

You will need to instruct me with this dow and make peace stuff. ;) We try to get dowed by AIs to get war happiness ?

Buy slaves or found deficit research?

Depending on how much money we have and how dearly we need happiness, we have to consider when to start (more?) phony wars.

My first idea was to always dow the more backward AI because they are less likely to have something to trade...
[...]
Anybody more experienced in this around?

No, klarius plays on another team. Anyway, I searched their SGOTM13 team thread and found these:

98 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6277287&postcount=98)

138 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6297645&postcount=138)

It would seem klarius says the opposite, but it might depend on the particular situation. Having the strongest make war on the weakest could be dangerous for us, they might die.

You will need to instruct me with this dow and make peace stuff. ;) We try to get dowed by AIs to get war happiness ?
Basically it works like this:

Coose a pair of AI, victim and friend. The friend needs to lack a tech we are willing to give.

0. make sure that no gpt arrangements are in order with the victim and no turns left on a peace agreement with the friend (other gpt don't matter).
1. establish embassies, make sure your selected couple knows each other
2. chose first opponent (take all his cash if possible) and dow him
3. enter trade screen of our potential ally, select "Active deals", select "peace" and put it on the table. Add alliance against the victim and whatever it takes to make him agree.
4. seal the deal.

Basically it works like this:

Coose a pair of AI, victim and friend. The friend needs to lack a tech we are willing to give.

0. make sure that no gpt arrangements are in order with the victim and no turns left on a peace agreement with the friend (other gpt don't matter).
1. establish embassies, make sure your selected couple knows each other
2. chose first opponent (take all his cash if possible) and dow him
3. enter trade screen of our potential ally, select "existing agreements" (?) ("Bisher" auf deutsch), select "peace" and put it on the table. Add alliance against the victim and whatever it takes to make him agree.
4. seal the deal.

Ah, ok. How do we control that one AI does not eliminate the other spoiling the victory condition ? We only do this when the two AIs are not on the same landmass ? Gift a town ?

No, klarius plays on another team. Anyway, I searched their SGOTM13 team thread and found these:

98 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6277287&postcount=98)

138 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6297645&postcount=138)

It would seem klarius says the opposite, but it might depend on the particular situation. Having the strongest make war on the weakest could be dangerous for us, they might die.
Well basically you need to stay peacefull with those you'd like to trade with. There was nothing they could trade to the tech leaders in that game.

That's different with us. The tech leaders might get the most money from other AI on the interturn, so they might be best friends for us - and we might want their techs (unless we capture TGL anywhere...)

Tech leaders are likely tougher to kill so you can dogpile on them - that's what we don't want anyway because we don't intend to lower the tech pace in this game, do we?

So let's stay friends with the tech leaders.

Ah, ok. How do we control that one AI does not eliminate the other spoiling the victory condition ? We only do this when the two AIs are not on the same landmass ? Gift a town ?

We have no absolute control. :(
If they share a landmass just make sure these civs are equally strong, have similar resources and none or both can start their GA with UUs in that span. We'll have to keep track of their town numbers and react if one is down to it's capital... :shifty:
By gifting a town, bribing other AI, sending units to block...

We try to get dowed by AIs to get war happiness?

Always, don't you? E.g. "leave or DoW"? But there is a special technique developed by klarius.

You need an embassy at least with the tribe which is intended to DoW you. You also need to be able to offer it enough to enter an alliance with you. It could be tech, support in an ongoing war or sheer fear for our superiour troops (since there is a peace deal involved). This could be tested, to some extent, in the diplomacy window before you renegotiate peace.

You enter "Active deals" and click on the peace treaty. It must be valid until further notice to be re-negotiable. You confirm that you want to re-negotiate and add an alliance against a second tribe, with which you must normally already be at war and preferrably also have an embassy, see earlier post. You add what is needed to get the deal through.

Now you wait for the tribe to make a peace deal with the other tribe. At this point, it is forced to DoW you, since the peace treaty was bound to the alliance. War happiness ensues. You can now make peace with the original enemy and tie this peace deal to an alliance against the source of war happiness.

A tribe which is supplying war happiness is a good target for new alliances, since you don't really want peace with it. Especially the first tribe will provide war happiness for a very long time, since it is denominated traditional enemy of your people or something similar.

So the first target(s) of this scheme should be the tribes we typically want to be at war with later. But you can also turn alliance/war pairs around after 20 turns if nothing has happened.

Gifting The Republic can help, since only then the tribes will experience war unhappiness and want to make peace for this reason. Also, we are most helped by the extra happiness once in Republic.

My first idea was to always dow the more backward AI because they are less likely to have something to trade...

These things have (at least) two phases. In the first phase, you declare war on a tribe with which you in the future will want to make peace, at least for a while if coupled to a new alliance.

You make the alliance with the tribe, with which you definitely want to have a prolonged war.

So if we want to have prolonged war with the weaklings, we should ally with them at first and declare war on the stronger part. Is that what you meant?

So let's stay friends with the tech leaders.

Unfortunately, that doesn't answer the question which tribes we want to have a war with.

We don't even know who the tech leaders are, since we didn't meet everyone.

How do we control that one AI does not eliminate the other spoiling the victory condition?

If the war start early enough, then the pikemen will make sure that no one is extinguished.

We only do this when the two AIs are not on the same landmass?

Probably not, since chances are they haven't even met. You see when you have an embassy what the possibilities are. But if this is the case, then chances also increase that they make peace pretty quickly, being unable to fight.

You make the alliance with the tribe, with which you definitely want to have a prolonged war.

So if we want to have prolonged war with the weaklings, we should ally with them at first and declare war on the stronger part. Is that what you meant?
Not really. While we can't force / hurr ypeace with the first victim, we usually can with the second unless we immediately play the trick the other way around. :crazyeye:
So imo our first dow has more impact than the second / resulting one. :hmm:
We don't even know who the tech leaders are, since we didn't meet everyone.
But for every couple of opponents we can determine it. Just chose the more advanced of the two we are watching. ;)
We don't need to know the global tech leader because we don't have Klarius SGotm13's secondary aim to slow down the tech pace. :old:
Probably not, since chances are they haven't even met. You see when you have an embassy what the possibilities are. But if this is the case, then chances also increase that they make peace pretty quickly, being unable to fight.
Are you sure? I'd think they are less likely to sign peace because nobody gets hurt... :dunno:

double post.

Here's an map of civs met. (Commando Bob did this for the Smurkz and it really helped, so I'm reusing the concept.)
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r113/CFCs_ControlFreak/SGOTM14/BC2150_Civs.jpg

I guessed at landmass borders. It looks like America and Celts are separated by 1-tile channel. I guessed that Greece and Hitties are also separated from the Egypt/Sumeria cluster. While I didn't see any evidence of Korea on the map, Andronicus met them via scout. We could still use a curaugh down south of Babylon.

Egypt trails Sumeria by Mystism, both lack Writing which we're trying to hoard. That pretty much limits us to Egypt as a friend and Sumeria the victim.

Rome (which has writing!) trails Aztecs by Wheel and IW. The Aztecs lack writing and both are down by Masonry and Mysticism. While I can't confirm they're on the same land mass/know each other, it would be good to get them warring with each other so Rome can't sell writing. We could go either way, but I would befriend Rome now by giving them IW. If they have iron, then both the Aztecs and Romans might get a GA and blow it in despotism fighting. When the tables turn, Rome is more accessible to us if we want to keep a war going and get some units down there from the tip of Celtia. My only fear is that Rome may overpower the jag warriors with the legions.

Rome may also know the unmet yellow civ and could spread writing that way. It would be good to get a boat there sooner rather than later. Maybe theres a cut-through under Aztecia since the curaugh is already there. EDIT: our newest curaugh is about 8 turns from getting there. I'm not sure if it's more important to have the first curaugh cycle back and explore the hittite area more, or if it should try to go under Aztecia.

On our homeland everyone is only behind by writing. At some point it would nice to pit Zulu against Babylon to get their GA's out of the way killing each other. Zulu would need to be our ally to begin with. Add Russia against Babylon also as a human shield and then backstab Russia to take their nice land. This would probably need to wait until we're bigger militarily and have navigated the Republic slingshot.

Great work, CF! :thumbsup:

Well, you'd not have to do it twice, though... :p

Good ideas about GA also.

Considering Rome with Writing I'd think it would be good to have an embassy there to see who they know. I guess nobody but nice to be sure.
It would also be good to repeatedly offer Writing to anybody with >25g money to see who rejects offering anything for it... :hmm:

So we go after Sumeria and ally Egypt. Both with AT UU, we might see some blood...
Rome and Aztecs is also nice, I'd prefer to face Rome first.
But we might also join the Aztecs against Hittites - if they met. Maybe we'd better get an embassy with the Aztecs first. :hmm:

While we can't force/hurry peace with the first victim, we usually can with the second

Do we have to be that afraid of them? It is demigod, sure, but they are limited in number of cities and off-shore. They are not ahead of us in technology.

Considering Rome with Writing I'd think it would be good to have an embassy there to see who they know.
...
Maybe we'd better get an embassy with the Aztecs first. :hmm:
We're going to need both, so I don't think it matters.

Do we have to be that afraid of them? It is demigod, sure, but they are limited in number of cities and off-shore. They are not ahead of us in technology.

In my experience, its more of a matter of wanting to trade with them rather than needing peace to avoid losses.

In my experience, its more of a matter of wanting to trade with them rather than needing peace to avoid losses.
Exactly. :agree:

I am totally unexperienced in this diplo stuff, so I leave that to you guys. Just tell me what I should do. I usually just play AW.

Coming back to the save.

There is another Arab warrior following the other two. I expect the single warrior following the two warriors on the same path. With that the cyan dot will be blocked for another turn, but I think it is worth it waiting for cyan dot. The next settler heads for yellow dot I guess to get the horses.

Somebody mentioned chopping the barracks in GG. Do we do this after roading or immediately ? When do we want to connect the incense at GG ? I would connect GG to the network first and then connect the incense. After that I would let the chops go into horses. I guess we will do some early warring ourselves. :D

its more of a matter of wanting to trade with them

Tribes with which we want to trade should be completely kept out of all phoney war politics. Both as initial enemy and as initial ally. There are 24 tribes out there to chose from.

If we don't really need happiness, let's wait with going for it until the trade situation gets clearer. Some other reasons for embassies and war have been discussed, though (Rome and Aztecs, other early GAs). Throwing in the odd peace treaty alliance can't hurt.

There is another Arab warrior following the other two. I expect the single warrior following the two warriors on the same path.
They were heading NE, as written in the logs.
I expect them to move on because nobody popped 25g lately... :shifty:
So you should be able to move to cyan dot next turn.
With that the cyan dot will be blocked for another turn, but I think it is worth it waiting for cyan dot. The next settler heads for yellow dot I guess to get the horses.
Yep, yellow would be nice, send the warrior (SE of cyan) there to scout if it's free.
Somebody mentioned chopping the barracks in GG. Do we do this after roading or immediately ?
Always chop first. I had planned to start both chops now, the worker will complete for the rax, the slave for the horses.
The slave could also move on if anybody has something better to do for him.
When do we want to connect the incense at GG ? I would connect GG to the network first and then connect the incense.
Agree.
After that I would let the chops go into horses. I guess we will do some early warring ourselves. :D
Yep, horses it is, also for quicker MP and barb missions.
And knights, and cavalry... ;)

Great discussion guys, I like your map CF. :goodjob:
One addition we can see in the save is a darker red border SW of Babylon ? Byzantines (?? Japan). If these unmet civs know Romans then writing may be disseminated sooner than we like - nothing we can do about it ofcourse, but I agree we need to send our next curragh in that direction. We currently have a curragh just left HH which should get there in around 10 turns (about 20 tiles south to that area).

I would agree an embassy with Aztecs (67g) to check who they know (Romans and/or Hittites) and start a phoney war there. Embassies with Rome (57g) and Hittites (72g) if known by Aztecs, is about all we can afford right now. I would like to keep enough spare cash to buy any slaves from civs we only have writing to trade with this next 10 turns - after that trading writing on our continent should be safe (of course we might get it extorted in which case I think we grudgingly hand it over).

I note both Babs and Russia have a fair bit of gold. We could trade gpt for gold to perhaps reduce risk of extortion of writing. Options include 2 x 32g for 2gpt with Babs, 45g for 3gpt with Russians, 30g for 2gpt with Zulu, 16g for 1gpt with Ottomen - total 153g for 10gpt. Of course we could then find ourselves being extorted by Arabs. Any thoughts? Personally I would rather the gold in our hands than in the wasteful hands of the AI.

Worker actions.
Slave3 and worker1 appear set to chop - worker1's chop will get GGs rax in 7 turns, then slave3's chop will speed 1st military build (horse)
After chops I suggest worker1 starts roading to pink dot (we want this started soon), and slave3 could improve around GG.
Worker2 I suggest next roads horse so that once yellow dot settled we can build horsemen (at which time we need to trade for HBR). Unfortunately there are no roads speeding settler to yellow dot.
Slave 2 is on a horse, it might as well road then connect up to GG
Slave 1 I suggest roads the wheat it is on, then road the incense giving us an extra lux, before returning to irr the wheat.

Tribes with which we want to trade should be completely kept out of all phoney war politics. Both as initial enemy and as initial ally. There are 24 tribes out there to chose from.

If we don't really need happiness, let's wait with going for it until the trade situation gets clearer. Some other reasons for embassies and war have been discussed, though (Rome and Aztecs, other early GAs). Throwing in the odd peace treaty alliance can't hurt.
Good call, no need to get everybody to war.

Let's have a look at Rome and if they know anybody, let's have a short discussion.
Just to prevent trades of Writing. But I'm sure they don't know anybody, otherwise they'd have already traded. :old:

So: No trading of Writing unless anybody but Rome knows it and we might get workers for it ;)

The worker after that for yellow dot should found blue dot, the next brown dot. Time to make some ground on you set! :)

Good luck, Mark!

Ah yeah, good instructions from Andro. Let's buy some gold for gpt. :agree:
Also: Buy any slave for tech (not writing) or gpt. Check every turn! :old:
Be aware of the differential movement, use any sea (takes 2 movements) and ocean (1) tiles but end on coastals (3). :salute:

Somebody mentioned chopping the barracks in GG. Do we do this after roading or immediately ? When do we want to connect the incense at GG ? I would connect GG to the network first and then connect the incense. After that I would let the chops go into horses. I guess we will do some early warring ourselves. :D

No need to connect GG's incense first as will take longer to road incense hill than incense desert at cyan dot. Slave will road wheat in 6 turns, move to incense taking 2 turns, then road incense (thus connecting through cyan) in further 6 runs - ie in 14 turns.



The worker after that for yellow dot should found blue dot, the next brown dot.

Next settler for yellow I agree with (to get horses connected), I wonder if orange should not precede blue dot? Then pink for another coastal town, then blue. Brown's spot has been taken by Ottomen (Iznik). I favour GG, yellow and orange focus on military whilst blue could build granary so it can do workers or settlers in republic. I think CC should be allowed to grow and build military once in republic - it will be a powerhouse producer, remaining on settlers would seem a waste. (obviously this will not be in next turnset, but the following)

edit - I have attatched an updated dotmap posing a couple of questions.
I added a purple dot as an alternative to blue dot (I did mention this site before) - advantages are access to one more tile to north so uses 1 less tile in crowded south, settles one turn sooner (on the turn it is produced rather than 1 turn later), doesnt settle on BG if BG revealed after chop.
I added white dot south of MM - very crowded but accesses the iron without cultural expansion (otherwise we likely wait for library). Do we need to connect iron? Personally I like to have some swords for home defence.
I put in olive dot speculatively by iron S of GG (doesnt show up too well, sorry). I suspect all iron sites to be taken by AI soon, so this may be a captured site rather than settled site.

Good new dot map and good arguments for purple dot. We might get the final push if we rerveal a BG.
Otoh if we reveal grassland, original blue dot could spare us 2.1 worker turns because we won't have to road it... ;)

We should not build swords imo but we should upgrade our warriors even though they are (still) regulars.

we should upgrade our warriors even though they are (still) regulars.

I find regular Swordsmen just die. And there'll be no barbarians to train them, right?

We will enter Republic, if all goes well, with rather few towns, so unit upkeep will be an issue. Why not simply disband most of them?

I find regular Swordsmen just die. And there'll be no barbarians to train them, right?

We will enter Republic, if all goes well, with rather few towns, so unit upkeep will be an issue. Why not simply disband most of them?
There are barbs, I already killed one :smug:
Good thing we don't have to decide now.

I just prefer horses over swords and wanted to give Andro some hope to get his swords ;)

We should not build swords imo but we should upgrade our warriors even though they are (still) regulars.

I too prefer horsies, but just posing the question .. do we want the option of swords? Even upgrading (I'm willing to agree having a couple of warriors that sit at home but can be upgraded in an emergency would suffice) requires us having access to iron. Therefore if we do want iron access soon do we consider white dot or a lib for HH? On further reflection, I suspect we will be best served just by waiting for lit and building a lib in HH.

I'd still want a town at white dot... :)

And I'd think we might want Iron for trade - if we need to support a rival under pressure... Maybe there are different benefits? Not sure if we want knights, I doubt that we'd research it...

But the Iron hill will be mined for shields anyway one day so the commerce won't be spit on...

But the priority to commect it is certainly low atm...

Ok, I will establish an embassy with Rome tonight and post the result.

General plan for my set :

Settle cyan and yellow dot, send third settler towards pink dot, although I think I would try going for the brown one first.

Worker actions :

Worker and slave at GG chop. Worker starts roading towards pink dot. Slave improves tiles around GG after chopping.

Worker at HH roads the horse and improves further tiles at HH afterwards.

Slave on horses in the East roads horse then joins the slave at GG helping improving tiles there.

Slave on wheat at cyan dot roads and irrigates the wheat.

Build orders :

CC : Settlers
HH : curragh (already in process), warrior, worker
GG : barracks (already in process), horseman
Cyan dot : barracks ?
Yellow dot : warrior

Establish embassies with Aztecs and Hittites.

Borrow money for gpt.
Try to buy workers (not for writing).

Start a phony war between Aztecs and Rome after we see who Rome knows after establishing the embassy.

Amendments ? Comments ?

I'm still leaning towards:

Cyan 1-SW (south of current settler position).
Yellow 1-N.
Orange 1-E.
White.
Purple.

Moving Cyan 1-SW gets two hills rather than the mountain, plus there's an extra river tile that can be roaded for commerce. And it makes room for Orange to move 1-E which gains two tiles for GG including the horse, without the need for culture building. Since workers are going to need to irrigate the plains around GG anyway to not limit growth there, They will already be in good position to road the horses there. In fact, if I wasn't worried about losing the territory around yellow, I would found Blue, then Orange then Yellow. Yellow has only the lake as a 2fpt tile, so growth is limited until workers can start irrigaging the plains.

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r113/CFCs_ControlFreak/SGOTM14/BC2150_dot_cf.jpg

Cyan 1-SW (south of current settler position).
Yellow 1-N.
Orange 1-E.
White.
Purple.


I would put in Magenta before Yellow/Orange. We need Curraghs and Horsemen. I would also wait with Yellow and White. They are not threatened and have low potential in food, shields and gold.

HH : curragh (already in process), warrior, worker

Have we got enough Workers and Slaves? I'd like to see HH as a Worker Factory.

Any plans for a Forbidden Palace somewhere? How about Cyan or Orange?

Have we got enough Workers and Slaves? I'd like to see HH as a Worker Factory.

No, we haven't enough workers. Who ever has ? :) The warrior is for MP purposes.

I would put in Magenta before Yellow/Orange. We need Curraghs and Horsemen. I would also wait with Yellow and White. They are not threatened and have low potential in food, shields and gold.

Yes, there's a lot of shield potential in Magenta that needs to get started.

Revised opinion is Cyan 1-S of current settler, Magenta, Orange, Yellow.

I did a tile usage map to see how moving Cyan and Yellow affected things. It's still very tight, but I think it's workable. I wanted to move Yellow north for two reasons: quicker to settle, and avoids cultural pressure from russian town. After doing the usage chart, I can see it ends up losing us a tile in one of the towns unless Green can get enough food to work a bunch of hills. Perhaps Yellow needs to stay where it was originally.

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r113/CFCs_ControlFreak/SGOTM14/BC2150_dot_use_cf.jpg

White is going to be a size 6 town as there aren't enough tiles to work to justify an aqueduct. HH is going to end up being our best commerce town, working a lot of river and coastal tiles. It will want a library if we're looking for fast research anyway, so maybe we can not settle white.

GG would have been a good place for the FP, but since it's going to be building units, maybe Orange?

Moving Cyan 1-SW gets two hills rather than the mountain, plus there's an extra river tile that can be roaded for commerce.
That's no advantage, iirc the city center gets a commerce less if not on the river.
Another point for original cyan dot: Right there (RCP6) it's less corrupt than yellow dot, if you move it SW (RCP7) yellow is less corrupt. Yellow is weaker, I'd like to keep cyan more productive.
The hills however is a strong point for moving it to the lake... :dunno:
Maybe some of Hammu's warriors move around that lake and take th decision for us ;)
Have we got enough Workers and Slaves? I'd like to see HH as a Worker Factory.
That means a granary there... Won't be ready before republic, eh? :mischief:
Orange dot has quite some chops available - maybe granary there? A lot of workers' work however... :(
Any plans for a Forbidden Palace somewhere? How about Cyan or Orange?
Not yet. A productive site without food surplus. :hmm:

edit: Can't comment on your pics while at work... :sad:

The warrior is for MP purposes.

Yes, please go ahead and build the Warrior.

I suppose new cities must build Worker first, then? We can also build them in CC once we run out of places to settle.

For Orange and Cyan, a worker first definitely makes sense because they won't be able to grow much without irrigating the plains. GG will gain some food tiles from the chops and will be able to keep growing if the choppers continue to irrigate tiles there.

For magenta, it might be worth two turns from CC to create a worker before going back to 4 turn settlers. Without food bonus, Magenta will grow slowing and don't want to give up the pop for a worker build.

I think CC will be done with settlers very soon and be able to pump workers for a bit. If our military grows quickly, we may be able to start capturing slaves soon also.:hammer:

Here is the save and a pic after establishing the embassy in Rome. It seems he knows nobody and Aztecs and Romans are separated from each other by a small canal. Rome seems to be alone on that island. However it shouldn't take long for the Aztecs and Romans to meet.

After we have agreed how to settle I will continue playing. Most likely tomorrow then.

After we have agreed how to settle I will continue playing. Most likely tomorrow then.

Thanks for delaying mark, we do have some options to consider for city placements.
I like CFs's dotmap better than mine. I think the move of yellow, cyan and orange improves the spacing in this area. The cost of cyan becoming less productive is not so great. Actually, in my dot map cyan is 6.5 tiles from CC, whilst yellow is 6.0, so yellow would still have less distance corruption, so it makes more sense to give it the better tiles.
I like that CK's orange brings the horses into play sooner, they can be roaded in 6 turns by the slave currently there. Because moving cyan no longer places it directly between the wheat and incense, the slave will take longer to connect up the incense. I suggest the slave just roads the wheat then the plains tile 1SW to connect to cyan and cyan produces a 10 turn worker (whilst working lake) which can road the incense quicker - end result incense connected 14 turns after cyan settled.
I would suggest next settler goes to orange. This will be a powerhouse and as mentioned, CFs version brings horses into use. This could be a forbidden palace option (although I think GG may be optimal being in direction of more productive land so the small corruption bonus to surrounding lands would be beneficial).
Next settler I would suggest pink (is this what you guys have been referring to as magenta?) in the north. Whilst later requiring a duct, it should make 10spt at size 6 and will be an important part of our navy production when we start overseas invasions.
Then yellow which would complete the south for now - other settlers will be produced in denyd's turnset when hopefully we become a republic, probably only purple would be produced before revolting.

So I suggest -
1) cyan (settler currently 1 S of proposed new site) - builds workers
2) orange - completes next turn, so settles in 2 turns - mp warrior / worker
3) pink - completes in 5 turns - I had hoped we might get some roads going there first, but we lack a spare worker. Build curragh, worker
4) yellow - 9 turns from now
5) purple - 13 turns from now, ? granary -> worker factory stealing CC's cow
(could then switch to 4 turn SF if we are looking to raze and replace, also to found tundra reservations to preserve threatened AIs)

Republic slingshot progress
- currently CoL in 8 turns (an extra 1bpt brings that down to 7 turns - we would need an extra 5bpt to reach CoL in 6 turns - wont happen?).
Previous calculations suggested phil in 8 turns, 7 if can reach 30bpt - probably not achievable even though we will be settling quite a few towns (currently making 21bpt). So it looks like 15 turns till we get philosophy.

Workers
Worker actions :

Worker and slave at GG chop. Worker starts roading towards pink dot. Slave improves tiles around GG after chopping.
Agree

Worker at HH roads the horse and improves further tiles at HH afterwards.
No urgency for this horse to be connected if we are going to settle orange in CF's position. Although, if this worker roads tiles southeast (horses) and then east after completing the wheat, it would speed settler to yellow by a turn. So yes to roading horse next.

Slave on horses in the East roads horse then joins the slave at GG helping improving tiles there.
Road horses then tile 1NE to connect up GG

Slave on wheat at cyan dot roads and irrigates the wheat.
I think connecting up another lux should take priority over irrigating the wheat, so I suggest roading first as described above.

markh - thanks for posting the Roman Embassy. Seems most of the team guessed right that they were not connected to any other civs.

Perhaps the next embassy worth getting is Sumeria? towards fomenting war with Egypt.

I'm on the same page as Andronicus (it helps when he agrees with my dot map :p ). I like the order of settling as well. Cyan and Yellow are middle of the road towns for us. Orange and Magenta/Pink are big for us. Settling Orange first definitely gets the horses attached faster and allows us to take advantage of their commerce bonus with an inner radius town.

Just some minor modifications:
1) cyan (settler currently EDIT: needs to move 1 S to get to proposed new site) - builds workers

And how about building a worker before Pink/Magenta's settler. The build takes 2 turns, but the worker makes a road in time for the settler to save a turn towards pink. Only problem is it delays yellow and purple by 2 turns:
2) orange - completes next turn, so settles in 2 turns - mp warrior / worker
2b) build worker from CC, completes in 3 from now. Worker can get one tile roaded toward pink (either N or NE,N) so it only costs Pink a net 1 turn extra in settling. It saves Pink 10 turns growth, so Pink can build curragh and then barrack.
3) pink - completes in EDIT: 7 turns, but arrives a turn earlier - plus we have a worker roading there and mining BGs. Don't need to build a worker in pink/magenta.
4) yellow - 11 turns from now
5) purple - 15 turns from now, ? granary -> worker factory stealing CC's cow
(could then switch to 4 turn SF if we are looking to raze and replace, also to found tundra reservations to preserve threatened AIs)
I think accellerating Pink's development by ten turns of worker build and ten turns of growth is worth delaying Yellow and Purple by 2 turns.

I have had a look at the dotmaps again and I tend to CF's map, too. Still I will wait for others to comment and if necessary I will postpone playing further until we get an agreement.

I guess pink dot is the dot N at the coast.

Please move a Warrior back into CC as MP.

Please move a Warrior back into CC as MP.
Ah yeah, the barb chaser. :agree:

Not sure about worker before pink.
If we do, an option is to wait till after orange settled before building the worker so orange can use the mined / roaded BG which CC would not need whilst building worker. This would imply building next settler (orange), then yellow, then worker (roads 1 tile towards pink as next settler completes), then pink, then purple.
A second option is to slot purple before pink, then worker could road 2 tiles towards pink and only delay incurred is 1 turn on purple (also changes order by putting pink last).
Further settler moves could be saved by switching purple and yellow in the above regime, so the worker currently roading HH's wheat could road an extra tile towards yellow. This would give order of orange settler, purple settler, worker, yellow settler, pink settler. My concern here is the risk of losing either yellow or pink dot sites. What do others think.? PS - this latter settles our closest sites quickest giving biggest boost to commerce and thus increasing chances of slingshot.

Agree mp -> CC. This allows nil lux at size 5, but do remember to increase lux to 10% when CC grows to size 6. (need to MM CC every 2 turns anyway to maintain 4 turner).

Diplomacy - I dont see a lot of gain in further overseas wars at present. I think we should try to keep scientifics out of tied peace treaties as their free age change techs will help to saccellerate tech pace.
Hopefully Celts will make peace with Americans to break our peace treaty and give war happies (then we wont require any lux). If they do, dont forget to take peace with Americans tied to MA v Celts. - we will more war happies once in Republic.

@Andronicus: Good points.

But don't even think about yellow or white until cyan (in two turns), magenta/pink, orange and purple have been founded and started building their Barracks (or FP)!

OK, I see the issue with building the worker without being able to shift the BG away. I think losing Yellow is survivable, losing Pink is not. Pink will generate many units to acquire the Yellow area if necessary. If we can build a unit to send as a spy to the north and watch for settlers from Ottomania, then I agree with:


Cyan 1-S of current settler position. Settle Cyan in 2.
Build Orange Settler in 1, Settle Orange in 2.
Build Purple Settler in 5, Settle Purple in 5.
Build WorkerPink in 7, Purple gets the mined BG. WorkerPink roads North
Build Pink/Yellow Settler in 11. Spy determines if Pink is in jeopardy. If so, settle Pink in 14. If not, settle Yellow in 14 (walk SE,S to hill, then to forest. WorkerPink roads North again (DO NOT MINE).
Build Yellow/Pink Settler in 15. If Yellow dot remains, settle Yellow in 18. If Pink dot remains, settle Pink in 17.

I see the issue with building the worker without being able to shift the BG away.

I don't. What are two shields during two turns in comparison to settling Magenta later? It will produce two spt nine times, then three and so on.


I think losing Yellow is survivable, losing Pink is not.

But:
Yellow is 100% safe once Cyan is settled (as is White)
Pink has three more BGs than Yellow
Pink is on the coast

I wanted to continue and wanted to make the cash deals, but nobody is willing to give us cash for gpt-payments. Maybe I am too old and stupid, but can somebody check the last save and let me know whether I am doing something wrong.

Maybe I am too old and stupid, but can somebody check the last save and let me know whether I am doing something wrong.
You really got me scared for a moment... :scared:
I'm releaved that one of the first assumptions proves true :p

You need to adjust the luxury slider temporarily to be able to offer gpt. No chance to offer more than you have surplus income per turn. ;)

Don't forgot to readjust the slider after trading!! :old:

Oops. :hammer2: I really haven't played a normal civ3 game for a long time. :hide:

Will play my set tomorrow.

ok, here we go.

1) 2150Bc : Embassy with Rome. They are isolated, but should meet the Aztecs soon.

Worker1 starts chopping
slave3 starts chopping

warrior back to CC for MP

2 x 32G for 2gpt with Babylon
45G for 3gpt with Russia
30G for 2gpt with Zulu
16G for 1 gpt with Ottomans

Establish embassy with Aztecs (They have 3 wines, building a settler)
Establish embassy with Hittites (Also 3 wines, building The Colossus)

IBT : nothing

CC : settler -> settler

Oops somebody has mapmaking, a barb galley appears right behind of our currgah in the far South

2) 2110BC : warrior 1 and settler on cyan dot
settler starts towards orange dot


IBT : nothing

3) 2070BC : settle Blighty Bluff at cyan dot -> worker
settle Andronicii Abbey at orange dot -> temple nah, I think a warrior for MP should be ok

IBT : Paris completes The Colossus

hm, 2 Arab warriors decide to enter our territory towards Andronicii Abbey

4) 2030BC: worker2 starts roading the horses at HH

IBT : the Arab warriors proceed to the North

Our curragh sinks the barb galley far in the South

forrest chopped at GG, reveals a BG underneath

HH : curragh -> warrior

5) 1990BC : just moving curraghs

IBT : CC : settler -> settler

6) 1950BC : settle Spooky Swamp at purple : warrior

IBT : nothing

7) 1910BC : not much

IBT : we learn Code of Laws -> Philo

HH : warrior -> worker
AA : warrior -> warrior

8) 1870BC : just moving some units

IBT : nothing

9) 1830BC : a curragh spots some dark red borders

IBT : CC : settler -> settler

10) 1790BC : greet Japan SW of Babylon, he has HBR, but lacks myst and writing

A settler is on the way towards pink. Philo in 5, but several civs know writing now, so it might be a race.

Oops somebody has mapmaking, a barb galley appears right behind of our currgah in the far South
:D Don't worry, barb galleys show up when two know Writing, of course. ;)

Not a single slave offered in that span? :dubious:
We need to enter the MA so some barbs chase a couple of workers into the capitals... :gripe:

Those Ottoman spears make me nervous... :shifty:

The rax in GG are not ready?? What had happened?
Mark, you need to have a closer look at towns' tile allocation in the early game in C3C! :shake:

Mark, good play. Only one turn too little. The next player can play eleven turns.

Here's an idea for the future game: We could slowly ICS an island and always gift one city there before declaring war and annihilating another tribe. Then the remains would all be collected and poach culture only from each other. Preferably an island with tundra and/or plains, no grassland. Not too far away, as we might need military precence.

For entry into the Middle Ages we'll need to begin to develop the Hills. After the Settlers, we'll need a lot of Workers.

@Paul : I do not know what happened to the chop. I checked the tile allocation and it should have been ok. I was astonished myself that the rax took even longer after the chop. As I said I have not played such a game for long time. I won an emperor random game easily last week, so maybe I took it a little too easy, although I was very nervous in the first turns.

I do not like all these AI movements through our territory either. Guess why.....

@ Più : There is only one settler left to build for yellow dot. Then it is just workers and military.

Here's an idea for the future game: We could slowly ICS an island and always gift one city there before declaring war and annihilating another tribe. Then the remains would all be collected and poach culture only from each other. Preferably an island with tundra and/or plains, no grassland. Not too far away, as we might need military precence.
I'm always afraid to leave the last remaining city of a civ on a continent with other civs without a barricade of units around it.

Looks like there are many Micro mangagement opportunities.

I was expecting a worker build in CC, but it looks like the worker who chopped forest move to mine CC's BG without roading the newly uncovered BG?

Not much time to look at the save now. Post more later perhaps.

I was expecting a worker build in CC, but it looks like the worker who chopped forest move to mine CC's BG without roading the newly uncovered BG?

Yup, this worker chopped and roaded towards pink dot and is mining now. CC is still on 4 turn settlers.

IMPORTANT NOTE

Please can you stop playing, and let me know when I can edit your save to fix the Carrack movement? I'll try to give you a fast turn-round and let you know when you can continue.

I do not know what happened to the chop. I checked the tile allocation

A chop goes to the first eligible city found when searching NE, E, SE, S, SW, W, NW, N, NNE, NENE etc. around the site of the chop. To control chops, all you can do is to assign "earlier" cities to Wonders in order to reach "later" cities.

Yup, this worker chopped and roaded towards pink dot and is mining now. CC is still on 4 turn settlers.
That was a nice solution to getting pink up faster without building a worker from CC. :goodjob: The worker can follow the settler to pink and improve?

It is possible to get the 36bpt needed to get Phil in 4 (we could hire enough specialists right now). Since the CC settler doesn't drop pop there for 4 turns (thanks to markh's smooth worker shift) it will maintain at least 12bpt. When CC grows to size six, hire a scientist instead of raising lux tax. If we succeed with the slingshot, we should have plenty of food and shields to run at any kind of factory needed.

What we need to get philosphy in beakers is 35, 35, 35, 36.
Setup:
HH uses ivory, wine, wheat - 8bpt
CC uses cow, wheat, oyster, ivory, roaded mined river BG - 14bpt
Spooky uses roaded river BG - 4bpt
GG uses w river BGs - 3bpt
AA uses wheat - 3bpt
BB uses lake - 2bpt
Turn 1 34bpt (need to make up 1)
HH builds worker so pop drops. Uses ivory, wheat - 6bpt
Turn 2 32bpt (now need to make up 4)
CC grows. Uses cow, wheat, wine, ivory, roaded mined river BG and hires scientist - 17bpt
Turn 3 35bpt (still need to make up 4)
Pink settled - 1bpt
BB grows, but builds worker stay at 2bpt
AA grows, hires scientist - 6bpt

Turn 4 need 39bpt gets to 39bpt?
Note the settler will be 2s short of build. We could disband a warrior, or just leave it and recover after the anarchy of the slingshoted Republic.

Someone please check my math and assumptions.

A chop goes to the first eligible city found when searching NE, E, SE, S, SW, W, NW, N, NNE, NENE etc. around the site of the chop. To control chops, all you can do is to assign "earlier" cities to Wonders in order to reach "later" cities.
markh's problem with GG barack wasn't the direction of the chop. The two forests were only in the range of GG and couldn't have gone anywhere else.

What happened is when Orange was founded, corruption increased in GG and dropped the spt from 2 to 1 until the growth on turn six. So we lost about 3 shields that we couldn't get back unless we used forest and slowed growth.

Ah, sorry, Mark, my last post sounds quite accusing. :blush:
Good job this set.

We'll take a little break here to let Alan fix the save. I'll pm him.

Please make sure that the turnplayer downloads the new save after Alan fixed it. :old:

I have edited the latest team files to give the Carrack the correct movement points. Please make sure you download your new save from the Progress and Results page before you continue ... unless you prefer slow Carracks :p.

Turn 3 35bpt (still need to make up 4)
Pink settled - 1bpt
BB grows, but builds worker stay at 2bpt
AA grows, hires scientist - 6bpt

Turn 4 need 39bpt gets to 39bpt?
Note the settler will be 2s short of build. We could disband a warrior, or just leave it and recover after the anarchy of the slingshoted Republic.

Someone please check my math and assumptions.

Oops: Turn four we actually need 36bpt plus the 4 makeup beakers = 40bpt so Pink will need to hire a scientist for one turn to get us to 42bpt instead.

Thanks for fixing the naval movement issue AlanH. (Still my hero.)

Denyd - did you get your ISP thing figured out? I think you're up and I'm on-deck.

@Yilar: Now that you've finished COTM53, could you give us some input here?

Not much to say that hasn't already been said :)

If Controlfreak is right about the numbers, we should try to get phil in 4, even if we have to use tons of scientists on the last turn. With so many civs it could easily be a race, though in my experince the AI tends to go for construction and map making first.

Oh, and we should stop all warrior production. Once we get republic we don't need them anymore, I usually have 5 units defending my empire once I enter republic and I have yet to be attacked by the AI.

I think it was a mistake to send the settler north, we could have roaded another square and sent the settler south to claim the more contended spot. But no point in discussing this.

How about trading writing for hb? We don't have monopoly and we are close to finishing phil, may aswell trade it before the AI does it for us. We should be able to trade phil for math and code for maps/poly. Then we can research currency and trade that for construction to enter MA first?

Last but not least I think we should do another granary for a worker pump, kidda shamefull that we only have 1 granary this far into the game. AA seems like a good candidate. But build a worker first, so we can utilize the swarm of forests nearby.

Btw, we are allowed to download the save and look at it without playing right?

Ah, sorry, Mark, my last post sounds quite accusing. :blush:

No problem. Critics are always welcome.;)

Ok, I'll upload the file after I finish reading the last 2 days worth of comments. I'll take a look at the save and post what I think I should be doing in a couple hours and probably play tomorrow afternoon.

First some thoughts on getting into Republic
Re getting phil in 4 turns - I'm not keen on destroying the 4 turner in CC - I think we are better to hire other scientists
eg
Start as CF describes, except hire scientist in GG whilst other citizen works the unroaded BG.
Turn 1 - 36 beakers
HH builds its worker and shinks 1 -> we lose 2bpt from wines
Turn 2 - 34 beakers (70)
CC grows to size 6, uses wines (maintains the shields for 4 turner). lux increases to 10% -> CC loses 2 comerce to lux (it did during my turnset), gains 2 from wines, HH loses 1 commerce to lux, net loss 1bpt
Turn 3 - 33 beakers (103)
AA grows size 2 - hire scientist (extra 3 beakers), pink dot settled - hires scientist (add 4 beakers)
Turn 4 - 40 beakers 143
CA2 shows we need 141, so maybe AA wont require the scientist in that final turn.
The cost in lost growth and production is worn by GG for 4 turns and pink dot 1 turn rather than our capital.
This should see phil in 4 turns. Hopefully this beats the AI. Assuming we get free rep, I suggest we dont revolt straight away - particuarly as yellow dot settler otherwise completes that interturn.

Second, some thoughts once we (hopefully) have Republic
We can then trade writing (I agree we are free to trade it now), CoL, phil, rep and make a decision on our finances. I'm keen to get into rep ASAP, I think grabbing all AI gold should allow us to afford it. Building a horse based military and conquering towns for unit support then becomes of prime importance - better if AI are in republic, esp if we have fleeced them of all their money.

I disagree with stopping warrior production - empty towns for a human player become too tempting for wandering AI once settler sites are taken - with the crowded nature of the map, we are fast approaching the AI assessing it has no viable settling sites. If the AI were occupied with wars amongst themselves I would feel safer. At the least we should have a paper army in our border towns until such times as we have sufficient horsies (remember we have a revolt coming soon with no possibility of responding during anarchy). Our gpt deals will hopefully also act to discourage them.
(Note to new members of team - I'm usually the worry wart, always anticipating the worst :lol:)

I agree we want another granary - my thoughts were SS which maximises the granary by running 5fpt by using the cow once out of despotism. Alternate is HH mining a plains and using both i plains, but this penalises CC too much (CC can remain 5fpt surplus using oysters and wheat). AA is an option irrigating a BG and using irrigated wheat.
We currently have 2 workers and 3 slaves. With pink and yellow dots we would have 8 towns so could do with at least 10 more workers.

Do we have all other productive towns building / shortrushing (if we have the cash) horesmen?
Or do we set one to FP (GG and AA strike me as best options, but GG already has a rax, so should build horses, hence AA gets my vote for this unless we want to hope for a leader)?



Btw, we are allowed to download the save and look at it without playing right?
Yes, absolutely, providing you do nothing to the save that changes permanently (eg you can play with the lux slider to check its affect, reassign tiles to chech MM, check what deals can be put on the table, but not move units, do deals etc.)

Here's an idea for the future game: We could slowly ICS an island and always gift one city there before declaring war and annihilating another tribe. Then the remains would all be collected and poach culture only from each other. Preferably an island with tundra and/or plains, no grassland. Not too far away, as we might need military precence.
I think we will need to do something like this - we want to save as many AI as possible using as few domination tiles as possible. I agree with CF we need to be able to separate them with units (? slaves if we get enough) so they dont take one another out. My understanding of domination tiles suggests more efficient to allocate chunk of tundra on large island than small islands where each AI will occupy more coastal tiles which contribute to domination limit. Looking at the tundra north of Iznik and around Istanbul, the far north of our starting continent might do for a reservation for AI until we control other islands.

Roster
Più Freddo
Andronicus
Paul#42
Markh - just played
Denyd - up
ControlFreak - on deck
Yilar

Don't know for sure about trading writing. If a civ is researching it and they can carry those beakers over to philosophy, it's very dangerous.

I felt that CC would stay on 4-turn if we disband a warrior to finish the settler on time and then would be able to operate from 4-6 the following cycle. But there are plenty of options to get phil in 4.

I'm thinking with the BGs and bonuses around. Switch immediately to republic.

I would like to see us put out the settler from the cap before we switch. If it can be done on the tun we get republic that would be best. We could be in for a rough ride with an 8 turn anarchy that will most likely give the AI enough time to settle the remaining spots.

Btw out of curiosity, what do you guys do under anarchy with city control? Do you let the cities "burn" or control them and potentially causing food shortage?

Don't know for sure about trading writing. If a civ is researching it and they can carry those beakers over to philosophy, it's very dangerous.


Beakers are not carried over - unless you are playing civ 4 ;)

I would like to see us put out the settler from the cap before we switch.

There was mention of another Settler too. Better get them (the almost ready ones) out before the revolt, since food is collected under Anarchy, which can easier be accomodated after a Settler build. Also, the Settler can move and found under Anarchy.

We could be in for a rough ride with an 8 turn anarchy that will most likely give the AI enough time to settle the remaining spots.

There is room in the east. I find the Government switch more important.

Yellow and White I consider safe simply because the AI settles optimally at distances of 5 or maybe 4 in a squeeze. Out cities also count in this pattern. They would sooner come with their Warrior/Archer stack than with a Settler.

what do you guys do under anarchy with city control?

I try to reassign to high-food tiles and Specialists before revolting in order to keep from rioting and, if possible, starving. I collect all the food I can get. Food is power. Food is points.

I disagree with stopping warrior production

Switch to Horsemen or at least Archers. Warriors have no value.

First some thoughts on getting into Republic
Good plan! :thumbsup:
We can then trade writing (I agree we are free to trade it now), CoL, phil, rep and make a decision on our finances. I'm keen to get into rep ASAP, I think grabbing all AI gold should allow us to afford it. Building a horse based military and conquering towns for unit support then becomes of prime importance - better if AI are in republic, esp if we have fleeced them of all their money.
:agree:
I agree we want another granary - my thoughts were SS which maximises the granary by running 5fpt by using the cow once out of despotism. Alternate is HH mining a plains and using both i plains, but this penalises CC too much (CC can remain 5fpt surplus using oysters and wheat). AA is an option irrigating a BG and using irrigated wheat.
We currently have 2 workers and 3 slaves. With pink and yellow dots we would have 8 towns so could do with at least 10 more workers.
AA is the better worker pump. :agree:
HH would waste too many shields once it can use the Iron.
Do we have all other productive towns building / shortrushing (if we have the cash) horesmen?
Or do we set one to FP (GG and AA strike me as best options, but GG already has a rax, so should build horses, hence AA gets my vote for this unless we want to hope for a leader)?
No, we have to handbuild it. Every leader should found an army... :hammer:
SS might be a good site...
AA is my worker pump.
There was mention of another Settler too. Better get them (the almost ready ones) out before the revolt, since food is collected under Anarchy, which can easier be accomodated after a Settler build. Also, the Settler can move and found under Anarchy.
Yep, rather wait for a good moment than just enter at first chance via TBP. This almost always causes riots anyway (in my games...) :shake:
I try to reassign to high-food tiles and Specialists before revolting in order to keep from rioting and, if possible, starving. I collect all the food I can get. Food is power. Food is points.
If I'm bored I try to anticipate food surplus in the first turn of republic and hit the best (necessary for fastest growth) number of food in store rather than just maximizing it... :crazyeye:
Switch to Horsemen or at least Archers. Warriors have no value.
:agree:
At the current Ottoman threat we should cover towns and workers if possible. I'd draw the BB warrior N to try to save AA in time... :shifty:
Also the settler needs an escort - unless that delays our research. :dunno:


domination
Right now I think we won't get to education which always makes ToA a good tool to cover ground.
It seems our continent is one of the biggest around. Should we try to get ToA on this one? We'd just need to get an AI in GA stuffed with Poly, no current war, a productive city and all other wonders already built... :rolleyes:
Pyramides would be nice as well... :groucho:
I doubt we should build any of them by hand.

ToA a good tool to cover ground.

That and no more it is. Domination bring us it will not.

We should not build any wonders. If we get lucky and one of our AI's build Temple of Artemis it would be nice, but it is out of our hands really. I think we should push for a knight rush all the way. Carracks are nice, but if we don't have to cross the ocean it makes more sense to money rush large amounts of knights.

OK, i agree with holding on republic until we finish the planned two settlers, but that's only a turn or three right?

BTW, I haven't played C3C in a while (mostly PTW) so I'm used to using TBP to revolt and then revolting again at the "learned Republic" screen if the turns are too high. Is that legal for SGOTM and possible in C3C?

I agree with handbuilding FP, but we don't have a great spot yet. BB is good location wise, but would take forever. GG's probably best compromise even though it has a barrack and should be spouting units.

Sound's like Denyd will be getting us Republic and cleaning up before the revolt. I get to ride the revolt out. I usually optimize specialists also. Expand a little on the planning for food when in Republic concept when my turnset comes up.

With most of the conquests a galley's ride away, I would agree that Knights are better than Cavs, or at least an intermediate point. I also think that with our tech advantage, we could cash in our profits for upgrading vet warriors to swords and maces for an easy/quicker conquest of our contienent. (I normally favor horses, but have seen the advantage that swords/maces can offer if timed right.)

Well, I've spent nearly 4 hours trying to digest what's going on and looking at the save. I'll put together a plan tomorrow night and look for approval. Sorry this has taken so long but you guys laid out a wealth of information and ideas and I'm trying to collect them all to a single plan of action.

Question # 1: If Writing is up for trade, is Code of Laws also something we can deal? From what I can see with CoL on the block we can get Math, HBR & Mysticism plus a couple hundred in gold.

Question # 2: Is anyone else but me worried that a single RNG the wrong way and an AI could take us out in 4-5 turns?

Question # 1: If Writing is up for trade, is Code of Laws also something we can deal? From what I can see with CoL on the block we can get Math, HBR & Mysticism plus a couple hundred in gold.
I favour getting all local AI into republic, so would trade writing and CoL freely if we gain something and even gift away up to rep when we are ready to dow (or goad AI into dowing :D). Others may feel differently.


Question # 2: Is anyone else but me worried that a single RNG the wrong way and an AI could take us out in 4-5 turns?
Sorry denyd, but the role of chief worry-wart is already taken :p.
I certainly found in my trial game the AI dowed much earlier than usual, thanks to the crowded nature of the map. My recommendation is to leave a unit (even if only a warrior) guarding each outlying town, they can be disbanded once we have enough horses to cover. However, several others have disagreed - I'll support a majority decision, but I still have an uneasy feeling. If there is an even split of opinions, then the man with the mouse decides. I would certainly give in to any extortion from AI on our island until such time as we have a few horses and the potential to produce more quickly.

OK, i agree with holding on republic until we finish the planned two settlers, but that's only a turn or three right?

My thought was we only delay the revolt until the current settler completes in 4 turns from now. This settler is ear-marked for yellow dot.
We should get philosophy in 4 turns, we dont revolt immed, but wait till the interturn completes and CC builds its settler. We can then revolt and set our towns to ride out the anarchy period. Only CC I think will need specialists (2 scientists or an entertainer at size 5, I think - but not sure, since we have 1 starting content and 2 lux connected) - I would not risk rioting as we dont wish to lose the granary.

BTW, I haven't played C3C in a while (mostly PTW) so I'm used to using TBP to revolt and then revolting again at the "learned Republic" screen if the turns are too high. Is that legal for SGOTM and possible in C3C?
Doesnt work for C3C - you get the same outcome.

Sound's like Denyd will be getting us Republic and cleaning up before the revolt. I get to ride the revolt out. I usually optimize specialists also. Expand a little on the planning for food when in Republic concept when my turnset comes up.

Unless we miss the slingshot, or we get more than 7 turns anarchy, you should have a republic to play with :)

With most of the conquests a galley's ride away, I would agree that Knights are better than Cavs, or at least an intermediate point. I also think that with our tech advantage, we could cash in our profits for upgrading vet warriors to swords and maces for an easy/quicker conquest of our contienent. (I normally favor horses, but have seen the advantage that swords/maces can offer if timed right.)
I had thought we would need to bee-line to cavs, but it appears we should should have tech leadership in the middle ages, so beelining straight to knights (after gifting up scientifics and trading for monarch and feud) should give more rapid conquest. This is still a little way aways yet and I think our first wars will likely be with horses.

We should not build any wonders. If we get lucky and one of our AI's build Temple of Artemis it would be nice, but it is out of our hands really. I think we should push for a knight rush all the way. Carracks are nice, but if we don't have to cross the ocean it makes more sense to money rush large amounts of knights.
I agree, we dont build any wonders - the wonder I would most like to capture though is GLH - esp with differential movement, the advantages of this pre astronomy are huge in getting our forces to distant AI (as witnessed in SGOTM12). The other wonder to capture would be SoZ (again as per SGOTM12) Perhaps the builders of these, if accessible, should be our first victims.

That and no more it is. Domination bring us it will not.

We should not build any wonders.

Certainly not.

What are the chances that an AI builds any? I think better if they are kept out of warring. Something to think about when making happiness phony wars.

Can we keep our locals at peace and start the conquest overseas and maybe get GLH, Pyramids or ToA on our continent? GLH is of course valuable regardless of location, as is SoZ.

All other wonders should be irrelevant.

I think we need a decision on which town for FP and which for worker factory?

Paul suggested AA for worker pump and SS for FP, I had suggested the other way round but can easily be swayed to Paul's choice. (edit: I think it was originally Yilar who suggested a granary for worker pump at AA.)
Any other opinions?
My original preference was BB(edit: GG) for FP, but having already built the rax it is now committed to military.

We need a granary ASAP in our worker factory with some chops to speed it up. Whilst we currently dont have spare workers for this, prioritising getting worker factory now will get us the workers we need sooner.

CC to rax and horsemen after this settler (at least when we come out of anarchy)?

Certainly not.

What are the chances that an AI builds any? I think better if they are kept out of warring. Something to think about when making happiness phony wars.

Can we keep our locals at peace and start the conquest overseas and maybe get GLH, Pyramids or ToA on our continent? GLH is of course valuable regardless of location, as is SoZ.

All other wonders should be irrelevant.

Once the AI starts on a wonder it doesn't stop unless it can't be built. We can simply wait with capturing the city till the wonder is done.

Once the AI starts on a wonder it doesn't stop

That is true. I was thinking more in terms of attacking somewhere else instead of waiting -- in case the local AI doesn't start on those wonders before we are ready to party.

At the moment, the Arabs are building The Oracle and The Statue of Zeus.

there are plenty of options to get phil in 4.

I'm sure all of them involve reassigning the citizens of Caspar's Castle to
please always use the Ivory tile!
Positively shocking to see it unused.

I was shocked, too. :eek:
But the settler was just built so I'm pretty sure it was used every turn till now. :smug:

Same for other occasions, the roaded wheat on the river (AA?) is unused while AA (?) uses an unroaded BG on a river - to see these (along with the missing shield for the rax) took me to my initial harsh comment at Mark's turnset. :mischief:

Ending a turnset should always include MMing the current turn so we are discussing optimal tile usage without repeating (and finally forgetting) self evident allocations all day. :old:

The ivory tile was used. I checked tile allocation every turn before hitting enter. Normally I do the mm before handing over, but I forgot it obviously this time. :blush:

The ivory tile was used. I checked tile allocation every turn before hitting enter. Normally I do the mm before handing over, but I forgot it obviously this time. :blush:

No problem mark, you obviously did a good job in reducing the time I had predicted for CoL / phil at the start of your turnset by 1 turn more than I thought we would be able. You would not have done that without optimising commerce tiles.
It just requires to be brought to denyd's attention that reallocating those high commerce tiles is needed, I'm confident he would be aware of this though.

I'm in Andro and denyd's camp with building some warrior/cardboard cutouts. If they are veteran, then all the better because I definitely see upgrading them to swords/maces, but I'd rather not have empty towns that the AI ends up next to because they are waltzing through our area.

I know horses are my favorite weapon of choice, except against the Zulu. The zulu warrior negates the advantage of retreat. Plus they build so dang many of them that you're always fighting horses against impi. A 2 attack against a 2 defend with no chance for retreat is the same as attacking warriors with warriors. Worse if the town is on a hill or has other defense. Horses for Russia, Babylon and Ottomans, but a stack of 5-8 swords to start taking zululand before a quick peace seems better to me. Just my humble opinion.

Revolting after the settler due in 4 finishes is fine.

At size 6 in republic, is it possible to make CC a one turn worker factory (+10fpt, +8spt)? I haven't looked at that possiblity, just throwing it out there.

Definitely no wonder builds, but that's probably old news. GLH would be my preferred wonder.

On a RL note, I'm traveling tomorrow and will have limited access. Also my laptop has gotten a bug and I'm trying to get rid of it. I may not be able to play, but should post my status after denyd finishes.

Opening Trades:
Code of Laws to Ottoman for Mathematics + Horseback Riding + 90g
Mysticism to Japan for 49g

Hiring 2 SCI will get Philosophy in 4 turns
Take Republic as bonus & revolt after CC settler completes

Current settler found on pink dot
2 more settlers out of CC (1 for new orange & 1 for new yellow)
1 settler in process (for new red)
2 workers from HH

Send Curragh NE of Japan SE
Send Curragh NW of Ellipi to circle Japan island to NW
Have Curragh SW of Hittites continue heading N

Submit to any local AI demands

I'll probably play turns 1-4 tomorrow night and then pause for an update and review

As you can see from my attachment, I'd like to try and squeeze in a couple more cities onto this map that originally planned.

1 for new orange

Putting a city on top of Iron makes it impossible to disconnect Iron for cheaper Knights. There is still a possibility that we will want to use Knights.

Shouldn't have traded code for math+hb. We could have gotten math for phil and hb for writing and then traded code for maps and poly, it is one of those techs that the AI always does last :(

At size 6 in republic, is it possible to make CC a one turn worker factory (+10fpt, +8spt)? I haven't looked at that possiblity, just throwing it out there.


I like this idea :goodjob:

CC uses iCow(3f,1s), iWheat(2f,1s), oysters(1f,0s), 2 x iBG(1f,1s each), mWine(0f,3s) plus base (2f,1s) -> 10f, 8s with 2 from forest on growth.

This would require developing 3 tiles - irrigating 2 BGs (the 2 north of the cow, requiring stop current mining and start irr immed) and mine the wine hill.

Diverting workers to those tasks means we would very quickly get our worker force once in republic and could even cont to run it to rapidly boost pop in other slower growing towns as tiles are developed.

Shouldn't have traded code for math+hb. We could have gotten math for phil and hb for writing and then traded code for maps and poly, it is one of those techs that the AI always does last :(
Especially with the idea to spread Republic on our continent I see no problem in acquiring all AT techs. :smug:

We need to spread (gift) Maths quickly to encourage research of Curr & Cons. :old:

The plan looks goof to me. :thumbsup:
Check for slaves any turn! :old:
I like this idea :goodjob:

CC uses iCow(3f,1s), iWheat(2f,1s), oysters(1f,0s), 2 x iBG(1f,1s each), mWine(0f,3s) plus base (2f,1s) -> 10f, 8s with 2 from forest on growth.

This would require developing 3 tiles - irrigating 2 BGs (the 2 north of the cow, requiring stop current mining and start irr immed) and mine the wine hill.

Diverting workers to those tasks means we would very quickly get our worker force once in republic and could even cont to run it to rapidly boost pop in other slower growing towns as tiles are developed.
Yep, in memory of legendary SGotm12 (tribute to Wacken) we know what a worker factory in the capital is capable of! :thumbsup:

The new dot map - we should make sure that all cities can reach size 12 before we squeeze in too many. Settling on Iron might still be no problem if we have a (dislocated) civ we can gift our only Iron to...
Not sure if we already have one OCC-rival when we might want knights... :dunno:
But with so many rivals we should find somebody to provide with Iron without hurting us too much. :hmm:

Settling sites
I dont see denyds orange dot lasting long
From my understanding, the AI never settles within 2 tiles of an existing town site (theirs or other's).
From our explored area of map I can see the following possible AI settling targets:
- pink dot area (looks like we'll get this first)
- new orange dot - the iron and the tiles immed NE and E to it remain avail
- yellow dot area - 2 tiles one SE and other E of horses still avail to AI (next settler hopefully gets there first, but I would not be surprised if AI already on way since it has horses and - for the SW one - iron in its radius)
- denyd's green dot area - 2 tiles avail, green dot and 1 NE - I would leave these for the AI to waste a settler on - floodplains, desert and mountain doesnt attract me.
- jungle sites between Zulu towns on south coast
- poss tundra sites on north of continent.
I dont see any AI settlers visible on the save, but expect they are not far away.
Once these sites taken (? 10-20 turns), I expect demands and dows (could occur whilst we are in anarchy). At present I suspect the AI sees us as the likeliest victim - hopefully gpt payments hold them off.

Settling sites
I dont see denyds orange dot lasting long
Agree. So that's excactly those two settlers we have planned that we will be needing for a long time.
Once these sites taken (? 10-20 turns), I expect demands and dows (could occur whilst we are in anarchy). At present I suspect the AI sees us as the likeliest victim - hopefully gpt payments hold them off.
I fear they don't value those gpt too high, capturing towns and workers is always "good" reason for them to backstab.

That said, we should call BB warrior N to defend AA. At least while the Ottoman is closed to it. :shifty:

Can we divert an escort from CC to pink dot settler? Or will that delay Philosophy? :hmm:

Re denyd's red dot - I think this cramps us too much (see my tile allocation and you can see it is already pretty crowded without adding another town).
I wonder if we should move yellow dot 1SW of denyd's position -> directly across the lake from BB (ie 2W of BB).

we should call BB warrior N to defend AA. At least while the Ottoman is closed to it.

Can we divert an escort from CC to pink dot settler? Or will that delay Philosophy?
I wouuld leave BB's warrior as is, if Ottomen intend taking AA they will do it before the warrior arrives. I recommend letting AA and SS complete their respective warriors and CC send one of its warriors to yellow dot once the next settler produced - pink dot can produce its own warrior, although we have more threats from the south and east, so if we are to go sparse on defenders, then I think this safest site.

I wonder if we should move yellow dot 1SW of denyd's position -> directly across the lake from BB (ie 2W of BB).
A agree, 1SW of yellow dot looks nicer to me.
No red dot.
I wouuld leave BB's warrior as is, if Ottomen intend taking AA they will do it before the warrior arrives.
Then I'd at least send him SW-W to check if yellow dot is still free for us. Maybe he can even block a settler combo for a turn? At least we'd find out if we better head for blue dot instead... :rolleyes:

CC uses iCow(3f,1s), iWheat(2f,1s), oysters(1f,0s), 2 x iBG(1f,1s each), mWine(0f,3s) plus base (2f,1s) -> 10f, 8s with 2 from forest on growth.

SS and HH can and must use the two Ivory tiles.

This would require developing 3 tiles - irrigating 2 BGs (the 2 north of the cow, requiring stop current mining and start irr immed) and mine the wine hill.

This we should do in any case for Republic. But we won't manage it in time, I guess. Perhaps there is a slow-growth Settler in there also after getting Republic.

Once the structure above is established, we can also do two-turn Settlers by short-rushing twelwe shields to twenty (e.g. Spearman) after the first turn. Start at size five without the Wine Hill. To get there from size six: rush a Worker, then a Spearman, then switch to Settler (80+48 gold).

No red. Revised Yellow. If possible, new-orange SW so it can share the wheat and still claim the iron.

Please don't hire scientists this turn just to make the calculated turns = 4. Both I and andronicus delineated how we could get enough beakers by maximizing the commerce tiles. My plan kept lux low but hired a scientist in CC. Andronicus's plan hired a scientist in GG instead. But both plans had max commerce at 100% science for the first turn so we don't stunt growth.

I'm still travelling today and will be offline for much of it. But my laptop now appears bug free, so I shouldn't have a problem playing. Since I'll be alone in a hotel this week, I'd love to get to play by Thurs or Fri.

Just an FYI - all of my items have yet to be done (trades, etc), so there is time change them.

Oh. Well if thats the case. Trade phil for math instead and writing for hb. Let's use code as a bargain chip for poly/maps. We can research currency next and trade that for construction to enter MA.

I'm kind of brain fried tonight with the election and I'm also a bit concerned that we'll be seeing demands for CoL soon, which is why I was looking to deal it before we get it taken. I think what I'll do is play turn one tomorrow night (making only minimal deals) and post the results for a review.

{I have to admit I'm feeling a bit gunshy in this game as I haven't played versus an AI in 6-8 months. Just PBEM games against humans, which is a whole different game.)

Just from RL logistics, I'm travelling back home on Saturday and my parents will be in town for the weekend, through Tuesday. Perhaps I could swap with denyd so I can play in the next couple of days? I'm not trying to be pushy, or rob denyd of his chance to do this critical set of turns. I'm just trying not to have to ask for a skip when the game gets to me.

Okay for me. Denyd?

More names added here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7388704&postcount=102)

CF - Why don't you take it and I'll take the set after you...

OK, now that I posted my swap request, my laptop is again acting flaky (we're talking blue screens of death at the moment). I will try to repair or acquire a new one tomorrow morning. I will post my got it/strategy or a skip tomorrow. I'm sorry for the whiplash I just caused.

I've got a loner laptop now. I'll have to install and get the mod pack etc.

In the meantime, the skeleton of the plan is:
Trade all but code for the worlds gold. Save code for higher tech items like poly.
Micromanage for science/growth.
Shuffle warriors for protection. Possibly build a few more as convenient.
Get phil in 4, grab republic slingshot.
Finish settler in 4 turns and revolt after he's built.
Start getting CC ready for 1 turn workers.
Start building FP.
Start building lots of barracks/horses.
Get us into the middle ages through crafty trading to science civs. Prepare for Knights ASAP.

:wallbash:
After messing around with trying to get this up on the laptop, I've come to the conclusion that my third disk of C3C is corrupted and will not complete the install.

With that, I must sadly return to the lurker status. What terrible luck and even worse timing. I'm so sorry to yank you all through my computer trials. I'll post when I'm back to functioning status.

:( :( :( :(

Get us into the middle ages through crafty trading to science civs. Prepare for Knights ASAP.
Too bad about your computer... :(

Not sure if we should invest into knights. I'd rather go straight for cavs...

Nevertheless we'd try to get all possible free techs from our SCI friends, maybe even 2nd level techs. If chivalry is on the table, we should take it...

Otoh we'll want a GA some day and thus might want to get Astronomy so we won't be able to beglect the upper branch... :hmm:

We have horses and iron avail, salt is unknown, so knights are a sure thing, whilst cavs may req fighting for.
Looking at how we dominate tech at this stage, I would like us to gift sev scientifiv AI up to mono and feud, trade for those then research knights (we cant get 2nd level tech as we are not scientific). We could then stop research for a while and shortrush / connect - disconnect to get a large knight force together to take over the world. If the AI is advancing at a decent rate we can get techs in peace treaties (since we wont want to eliminate them), and trade them around. If we have salt and find oursselves up against it with knights, then a quick research to cavs would probably be worthwhile. It would not surprise me if the fastest domination were achieved by knights in this game.

Who's up then?

denyd or Yilar?

Perhaps the first to post a got it should take it ...

I guess denyd is up. He invested some hours in checking the situation, so let him play. It would not be fair to ignore him another time. He showed a lot of patience already. ;)

I'll drink a round of courage and play a couple of turns (using CF's template) later tonight

I'll drink a round of courage and play a couple of turns (using CF's template) later tonight


:beer::beer::beer:

Ok, here's the first couple of turns summary: We got Republic :beer: and the pink dot settled

SPOOKS - SGOTM14 - Turn Log 1

Turn 0 - 1790 BC - Change Haunted House to a warrior (can't afford the pop loss

at the moment) - Add SCI to HH & GG to get Philosophy in 4 - Trade Writing to

Japan for Horseback Riding + 49g

IBT: Haunted Hollow builds a warrior starts a worker - Ghouls Graveyard builds a

barracks starts an archer - Spooky swamp builds a warrior starts a worker

Turn 1 - 1750 BC - Warrior MP in Spooky Swamp - Pink Settler N - Shuffle

warriors to send Warrior2 after Pink Settler - Scout E-S - Curragh1 S-S -

Curragh2 SW-SW-SW - Curragh3 W-N-N - Fire 1 SCI - No trades available

IBT: Renew Peace with Celts - Arabs sending Warrior/Settler to Iron hill (my

orange dot) - Babylon starts SoZ

Turn 2 - 1725 BC - Worker2 starts a road - Scout S-S - Warrior2 trails Pink

Settler - Pink Settler on spot - Curragh1 S-S - Curragh2 E-S (meeting Persia,

down Code of Laws) - Curragh3 N-N - Raise lux rate to 10% and hire a SCI to

keep Philosophy due in 2 - No trades available

IBT: Blighty Bluff builds a worker starts a barracks - Andronicii Abbey builds a

warrior starts a barracks

Turn 3 - 1700 BC - New worker moves to incense - New warrior MP in the Abbey

- Dungeon of Doom founded on pink dot - Warrior2 moves to Dungeon of Doom

starts a worker - Scout E - Curragh1 W-SW-W - Curragh2 SE-SE - Curragh3

NE-N - Able to fire 1 SCI to get Philosophy next turn - No trades available

IBT: Discover Philosophy research Republic and we get it - now researching

Map Making - Caspars Castle builds a settler starts another

So here's where I'll stop for now

Question # 1 - Start the revolt to Republic now?
Question # 2 - Where does the new settler go?
Question # 3 - Who do we want to get into Republic?
Question # 4 - Is it time to trade Philosophy?
Question # 5 - Is Map Making our best research choice (I'm thinking it should be

Currency)?

Note that we have 16 units and only 7 cities (support = 18gpt)

1: Yes!
2: Go through ivory onto hills (ne-s of CC), goto nw of lake and settle if you can't settle w of lake. Wether you settle w or nw or lake is not really important imo.
3: We can trade republic for MA tech later, the AI isn't gonna research it for a long time?
4: I'd say yes, remember to get some cash from it to :)
5: I'd say go for currency, but you got time to figure out what is best in anarchy :)

Few other notes:
Disband most of the warriors, disband the scout.
I don't think we can make a settler fast enough to settle the iron east of AA, so do a barracks in cap if the AI grabs that spot.

We got Republic
:goodjob:


Question # 1 - Start the revolt to Republic now?
Yes
Question # 2 - Where does the new settler go?
I would still send to yellow dot (will arrive turn before Bab settler can arrive at a buildable site for AI). I would accompany the settler with one of CCs warriors (since it wont need mp anymore)
Question # 3 - Who do we want to get into Republic?
No rush till we want to dow (and we are not that strong yet). If we can hang onto till we gift scientifics up to trade for their freebies, that would be ideal - whicj is I agree with Yilar :D
Question # 4 - Is it time to trade Philosophy?
Fine by me so long as we get something for it
Question # 5 - Is Map Making our best research choice (I'm thinking it should be Currency)?
AI will research MM soon - we should do currency. Other option is to go literature then currency - gives more trade bargaining options, but I dont think we will want libs before chivalry (if team decide to ignore chivalry and beeline to cavs, then libs will get us there quicker).

Note that we have 16 units and only 7 cities (support = 18gpt)
I would wait till we emerge from anarchy before disbanding any warriors. Even then I would keep the skeleton defence (1 warrior per town) in place until we have a few horsemen built.

Some trades I would consider
Phil to Russia for maths + 84g
Writing to Greece for 4gpt + 51g
Writing to Korea for 29g

Trading scientifics up makes sence when we intend gifting them anyway at age change.
I wouldnt gift AI on our continent at present without something sig in return, that leaves us with minor techs to give if we get extorted rather than CoL - saving for MM, poly, or worse republic.

It looks like we wont get any slaves until there is war on our island.

? peace with America getting 12 g

War with America failed to gain us war happies from Celts, so continuing is pointless (We could have renegotiated peace with Celts when it shows zero turns remining on deal, to again include MA v America, but we have 20 turn peace now - no big deal really, perhaps someone sees another opportunity elsewhere? Rome dont know Japanese so these must be separate islands, perhaps all AI other than our starting island are isolated on their own island?).

2: Go through ivory onto hills (ne-s of CC), goto nw of lake and settle if you can't settle w of lake. Wether you settle w or nw or lake is not really important imo.

I think you mean settler goes SE/S, then S to lake. Sounds good as gets to lake 1 turn sooner if we settle NW of lake.

do a barracks in cap if the AI grabs that spot.

I thought we said we'd build one-turn Workers!?

I thought we said we'd build one-turn Workers!?

IMO putting CC to one turn workers is extremely powerful. In SGOTM12 it was this (and capturing GLH early) that made the main difference to our result. To this end we should immed stop the worker mining the BG N of CC and set it to irrigating this tile, then the BG NW of SS. We also require getting a worker mining the wines hill ASAP (worker2 once completes its current road SE of HH, plus new worker from HH produced turn after emerge from anarchy)

Thus changes I recommend:
1) trades mentioned in prev post
2) peace with America
3) revolt immed
4) research switched to currency (having traded for maths)
5) settler to NW of lake moving SE/S on this turn and accompanied by warrior (can settle W of lake if site not blocked by Bab settler, but it looks like thats where they will be in 3 turns)
6) MM for growth during anarchy, but dont let CC riot as we dont want to lose granary (give it's food bonus tiles to SS and HH which both become 4fpt surplus). Also dont want GG rioting as it has a rax, so I think it will require a scientist until it is connected up by road.
6) worker mining N of CC changed to irrigate
7) worker roading SE of HH mines wines after completing its road

Thinking about possibilities of getting GLH built on our island.
I note only Babs and Arabs have their capitals on coast, both Mecca and Babylon are currently building wonders. It might be worthwhile trading / gifting MM to these two as soon as we are able to trade for it in the hope they cascade to GLH (they may also cascade to SoZ, but this has already started in Nineveh and Medina). With holding phil may reduce risk of cascade to MoM, but not sure how we would do that unless we use CoL to trade for MM :undecide:

Denyd... You gonna finish up the last turns soon?

I got overwhelmed by PBEM games last night and am kind of waiting for decision on whether to trade Philosophy. I plan on finishing up tonight and will deal it unless we decide otherwise.

All of the rest of my questions have been answered.

Sorry guys, I'm on a business trip but returning this evening.

Without looking at the save I'd feel save to trade Philo to civs on distant continents - I think our locals don't have any remote contacts yet, do they?

On our continent I'd rather trade CoL - we'll spread Republic here anyway, won't we?

I'm convinced to go for chivalry quickly. Maybe we should pile gold now? I'd guess the AI will be quite quickly with all but literature, especially if we spread maths now quickly.

Current average rate of play:

klarius 4.8 turns/day
__Ivan 3.6 turns/day
__Elite 2.8 turns/day
Spooks 2.0 turns/day

Denyd, you're still out there? :bump:
If you don't find time to play, please submit the save so we can go on.

Regarding the current settler - we could let him travel quicker by moving him 2SW-S (soon roaded) and 2S the turn after, so we reach the lake on turn #3. If the warrior from BB blocks the tile SW-W, we'll beat Hammu's combo to the lake - my preferred site 2W of BB.

I agree to acquire Maths now.
I'd like to spread it to those we don't expect to get MM or Poly for us :crazyeye:
We should go for currency imo, some others will likely already go for MM.

Still here - didn't get enough time to finish set - will wrap it up tonight

Here it is - I hope it was worth the wait (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm14/Spooks_SG014_BC1525_01.SAV)

Turn 4 - 1675 BC – Trade Philosophy to Russia for Math + 84g – Trade Writing to Greece for 4gpt + 51g – Trade Writing to Korea for 29g – Sign peace with America getting 12g – Halt mining by Worker1 and start him irrigating – Ann (worker) starts road on incense – Warrior2 MP in DD – Scout SE-SE – Curragh1 N-W – Curragh2 SW-SW-SW – Curragh3 N-NE – Settler SE-S – Decide to wait 1 turn to get worker out of HH and complete road SE of HH

IBT: Haunted Hollow completes a worker starts a barracks – Note that Babylon settler has turn away

Turn 5 – 1650 BC – Settler S – Scout SE – Curragh1 W-W-W – Curragh2 SW-SW-SW – Curragh3 N-N-NW – Worker2 N – Bee (worker) N-E – Slave3 W-NW and starts irrigation – Slave2 SW-W-W – Slave1 N – Warrior3 SE-S following Settler - No trades available – Begin revolt drawing 5 turns – Hire Scientists to prevent riot in CC

IBT: Nothing much

Turn 6 – 1625 BC – Slave2 W and starts to mine wines – Bee joins Slave2 to mine – Worker2 E – Settler S – Warrior3 S – Scout S finds Zulu capital – Curragh1 SE-S-S – Curragh2 SE-SE-E – Curragh3 NE-N – Slave1 N-W-W

IBT: Celts come calling asking about an alliance against America, but I sell him Mysticism for 29g – Japan starts the Oracle

Turn 7 – 1600 BC – Worker2 joins in the mining party along with Slave1 – Warrior3 S – Settler founds MarkH Morgue starts a barracks – Scout S – Curragh1 SE-SE – Curragh2 S-SE-E – Curragh3 W-W – nothing new on the trade front

IBT: Russia starts Mausoleum in Novgorod – Celts start Oracle in Lugdunum

Turn 8 – 1575 BC – Warrior3 MP in MM – Scout W – Curragh3 W-S-SW – Curragh2 SW-SW-S – Curragh1 SW-SW-S – Trade Philosophy + 30g to Arabs for 2 Slaves – Slave4 & Slave5 NE-NE and start to irrigate with Slave3

IBT: Ann completes connecting Incense

Turn 9 – 1550 BC – Ann NW-NW – Scout W-S – Curragh1 SE-SE-E – Curragh2 S-SE – Curragh3 W-W-SE meeting China – Trade China Mysticism for 110g – Trade Philosophy to Ottoman for 58g – Trade Philosophy to Sumeria for 45g

IBT: Sumeria starts Mausoleum in Lagash – Revolt to Republic is complete

Turn 10 – 1525 BC – Scout W – Ann starts a road – Slave3 W and completes irrigation – Change GG to a Horseman – Curragh1 SW-S-SE finding Persian homeland – Curragh2 SE-E – Curragh3 S-SW

Movement is left for Worker1, Slave4 & Slave5 - Right now CC is 8spt & 9fpt – I’m thinking we need to irrigate another BG then make sure the forest E of CC is always available to get us to a 1-turn worker factory

We're catching up in territory. We have revolted a turn or so earlier than klarius.

Next player please play 11 turns.

Any screenshots for those at work? :drool:

Right now CC is 8spt & 9fpt – I’m thinking we need to irrigate another BG then make sure the forest E of CC is always available to get us to a 1-turn worker factory

Actually right now CC can do 10fpt if it uses oysters instead of mBG. It will be short on shields till we finish mining wines in 2 turns (then has 8spt +2 on growth using wheat, cow, oyster, 2 irr BGs and wine hill).
CC can either build a settler in 2 turns using mBG and 2 forests (has 7 in box, 10 next turn, 12 turn after as mine completes + 1 from growth), but this leaves it size 5 and not ready for worker factory (must be size 6)
Alternative is build a worker next turn with 10fpt using oysters instead of mBG, then mine completes following turn allowing size 6 1 turn worker factory immediately. I prefer the second option. If we want more settlers we can always build them in other towns and replace the pop with workers from CC thus not have to disrupt the worker factory. To be able to add 1 pop to our empire every turn is a big plus.

We're catching up in territory. We have revolted a turn or so earlier than klarius.
Looking at culture, Klarius went to 12cpt where Ivan continues at 3cpt - looks like they are building libs. Ivan has presumably gone down the military path as they have gained territory quicker.

Any screenshots for those at work? :drool:
Stop your drooling ... here's one of the Spooky homeland

So is it me or CT next?

With that, I must sadly return to the lurker status.

Looks like you're up Yilar :D

Roster
Più Freddo - on deck
Andronicus
Paul#42
Markh
Denyd - just played
Yilar - UP

ControlFreak - lurker status till civ operational