SGOTM 14 - Humanitarian Portuguese Domination
Welcome to your SGOTM 14 Team thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game here, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest. I hope you enjoy the game.

The starting saves will become available on the SGOTM Progress and Results (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm_submission_list.php) page on October 18th, at midnight, server local time.

Henry of Portugal intends to dominate the world, but he also wants to conserve as much as possible of its cultural diversity. This is a Demigod game, on a standard archipelago map. Thanks go to Ivan Larkin and CommandoBob for assembling the specification for this game. You can see the discussions leading to it in this thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=284826).

The winning laurels will be awarded to the team that reaches a fast Domination victory with the highest "humanitarian" score. Each civilization that is still alive in your victory save will add ten points to your score. Each turn that you take to reach victory will deduct one point from your score.

The game will be played to GOTM standards. No one plays the save except the current team player. No replays except in the event of a crash. Set autosaves for every turn so that you only replay the current turn if you suffer a crash.

Here's the start. All the food, shields and luxuries you could wish for :D. Click the picture for a bigger image.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/images/sgotm14startsmall.png (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/images/sgotm14start.jpg)

Map Parameters
Playable Civ - Portugal
Difficulty - Demi-god
Opponents - 24
World - Standard (100 x 50), Archipelago, 60% water
Barbarians - Roaming

The map may have been tweaked :p

Game mods:
We shall use the default rules as defined in the SGOTM Reference Thread. Note that Differential Naval Movement remains a feature of the SGOTM scenarios.

All the AI civs have been provided with additional defence in the form of a Pikeman to reduce the chances of too many AI-on-AI deaths.

In a deal which includes a resource, a millitary alliance or a trade embargo, the human player is not allowed to pay the AI more gpt to AI than the AI demands.

Detailed discussions of the reasoning surrounding this are available starting here in the SGOTM 13 sign-up thread, as well as in a number of other HoF and GOTM-related forums.

The SGOTM Mediterranean resources are included. If you have played previous SGOTMs then you will be ready. Other players will need to download and unzip a small graphics mod pack linked in the Reference thread.

Please ensure that you have included the line: NoAIPatrol=0 in your conquests.ini text file:


A 'fix' for the Barbarians!:
As many of you know, the barbarians in C3C are 'broken'. This can be fixed by going to your \Conquest\ folder, and opening your Conquests.ini file, and adding a line noaipatrol=0 to the file. Whilst we cannot force people to do this, it will make the game a bit more interesting if you do. If you are not comfortable editing your .ini file, you can download a utility here ( http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civassist/BarbFixer.zip) to do it automatically.


Players running Civ3 Complete for Macintosh should contact me if they have any problems with the mod. If they are not running a patched version they will need to use FileValet to compress their saves for upload, and they may also need to use it to 'clean' downloaded saves before playing.

Please visit the following links to ensure that you are adequately prepared, skipping references to PtW or Vanilla versions of Civ3.

The GOTM Reference Thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=71788)
The SGOTM Reference Thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=112722)

Notes:

ONLY Conquests version 1.22 (C3C) is supported for this SGOTM.


All teams will compete for a single award set:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/players/awards/redlaurel14.gif The Crimson Laurels will be awarded for the Domination victory with the most civs still alive, and in the least turns. Each live civ adds ten points. Each turn taken to achieve victory deducts one point. If two teams score the same then the most humanitarian team wins - the one with more civs alive. If this figure is also equal then the Jason scores will be the tie breaker.




http://gotm.civfanatics.net/players/awards/woodenspoon14.gif The Wooden Spoons are for the lowest Jason-scoring finish, win or lose, but you have to try to win!





All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

Have fun, and be nice to each other :)

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/SGOTM13-Smurkz/signs/NewSign1.jpg


The End

The door opened into a large room of tables and booths, all empty. Only the lights by the door were lit, and he had just turned them on. The floor was clean and the arrangements on the tables were neat and orderly. The ceiling fans were on low and were the only thing moving. Even the electronics were off and unplugged; no tiny little red lights to highlight their location in the darkness.

The door opener stood a minute framed in the doorway by the light outside. The old door he closed quietly, as was his custom, though the click of the door latch seemed very loud. He walked slowy across the floor, his footsteps on the wooden floor serving only to deepen the silence. As he made his way to the far wall a song sprang from his lips, remembered from his youth, and he sang it softly as he walked.


Those were the days, my friend
We thought they'd never end
We'd sing and dance forever and a day...


His voice trailed off and he stopped singing and stood in the middle of the room.

'No, that's not right. We all knew that someday this day would come. But that isn't the right song, not for now. This is not the time of regrets.'

He shrugged off his back pack and continued to walk and talk to himself.

'Definetly not a time of regrets. The end has come and the memories are good. Need a song that communicates that, not the other...'

He stopped in front of a series of mounted plaques. He took the first one and studied it, angling it to read it in the dim light. Between the braids of the golden laurels were the words 'Durkz Classic'.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/Smurkz/Classic8.jpg

He pulled a set of packages out of the backpack and set them onto the nearby bar. Each were numbered; from 8 to 13. He opened the one numbered 8 and took the plaque and set it inside the case, closed it softly and then set the case aside.

Now he had the right song.


So long, farewell, auf Wiedersehen, good night
I hate to go and leave this pretty sight


The next plaque read

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/Smurkz/Classic9-1.gif


So long, farewell, auf Wiedersehen, good night
Adieu, adieu, to yieu and yieu and yieu

WarDance, zyxy and many others.

Slowly, yet all too quickly, the plaques for 10, 11, 12 and 13 were placed into their cases and then all were placed into the backpack.


So long, farewell, auf Wiedersehen, good night


As he shouldered the backpack and got ready to leave, the cuckoo clock up in the corner began to signal the new hour.

'Yes,' he said, speaking to the clock when it was done, 'I remember how it starts.' And he sang rather loudly as he walked to the door.


There's a sad sort of clanging from the clock in the hall
And the bells in the steeple too
And up in the nursery an absurd little bird
Is popping out to say "cuckoo".

Cuckoo, cuckoo

Regretfully they tell us
But firmly they compel us
To say goodbye...


He opened the door, locked it, turned out the lights, stepped outside and closed the door behind him, singing softly


So long, farewell, auf Wiedersehen, goodbye
Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/SGOTM14-Elite/Elite_logo.jpg


Outside the building he gazed up into the sky and sighed. Then he shook his head, took a deep breath and turned to face the building again. He raised his arms slowly, chanting softly, 'Knock three times on the ceiling if you want me; twice on the pipes if the answer is no-oh.' When his arms were fully raised above his head he cried in a loud voice, 'Walla, Walla, Washington!' In the darkness of the starlit skies he stomped his left foot twice and then clapped, and then stomped twice again and clapped once more.

'We are,

we are,

Elite!'


(stomp, stomp, clap!; stomp, stomp, clap!)

'We are,

we are,

Elite!'


And then opened the door to the newly formed Elite Hangout and went in to get ready to meet the team.

Eagerly he climbed into the face of the rising sun. He had walked for hours to come to this place and now anciety creeped slowly into his mind.

Behind that hill lay the former camp Veteran. When he had been called back to his Clan all this months ago he had left at night, always looking back to that tiny dugout where the light of a storm latern marked the captain deep in discussion with his companions over the plan for the first battle of this new campaign. Spain had shelled their positions for weeks and now the time for retribution would come around.

But not for him. Yesterday his wife ad send a message calling for his return as his firstborn daughter was due month before the date and the midwife was expecting her any minute now. Unable to face the captain with the news of leaving them alone in this hour of need he had left a note and sped home.

But now the circle had come around and the captain had requested his return for the new war and he decided to follow the call of duty and deal with the guilt like the battle hardened ELITE soldier he was supposed to be.

But all this was soon replaced by awe when he finally reached the crest and let his eye sweep over the next valley.

Gone where the outer trenches where he layed so many hours fighting of Aztecs warriors, Japanese Samurai and French Musketeers. Gone was the small plattform on the lonely tree where he had frozen night after night on the watch while his mates slept in their cots. Gone was the small hole oin the earth where these cots had been, crammed into the corners of a room filled with tactical displays, battle simulators and a huge desk for planning all there campaigns.

They had always dreamed of a real camp with palisades and lookout towers a mess hall, and a helicopter landing pod (Oh how he hated walking out 30 the 500 m to the next plain piece of earth when HQ had send new eqipment.) But time had never been there and so the Veterans had continued to live in their makeshift home with all the little inconviniences.

But obviously times had chanegd. He thought he even saw a small Anti Aircraft battery dug in behind the central watch tower. But his eyes always shifted back to the central structure. Their proud Regimental Colours flew on to of that building and while yet subdued the people moving around brimmed with newfound activity.

Sweeping his eyes one last time over all the advance positions, artillery dugouts and radar towers he felt a new pride. This was definetly the camp worthy of one of SID's ELITE corps.

But it also dawned on him finally the time if excuses was over. They had fought well in the past. They had beaten them all. Just not all at once. But this time only final victory would count. This flag had a silver lining and he was proud of having been part of that valiant effort, but it was definitely missing a golden laurel.

This was the time and they would make it their time.

Entering the open gates and facing the door where his teammates would be waiting. Thinking one last time about the uneasy prospect of having to face the captain with his shame he forced himself forward to carry his share of the load, to fight for his part of the final fame.

Bucephalus will be joining you; he's said he knows some of you from previous SGs. Best of luck to you all.

He was the first one in the camp. He didn't even know at that time if others were on their way or whether he'd have to pack his bag and go into the unknown, trying to find someone who needs a Veteran.

A veteran that started out as a newbie. As the leader of the newbies even as he was the only one who knew how that game feels like.

He looked back with proud, even though the shelve of trophies is still empty. At least there is othing that only catches dust. He knows, he is not at the height of his capabilities anymore, but furthermore he knows that this is not the only thing that counts. It is about the team. The whole can be much more than the sum of its parts.

As he heard the stomping and clapping and singing of someone to arrive, he started making some coffee. With those magic spoons they came home with after the last journey, the coffee is even more powerful. But now the time of remembering the past has gone. New adventures lie ahead! The team is still alive and ready for some kicking!

So, despite redlining in our last combat, we survived against the odds. A quick roll of the RNG and bingo! promotion from Veteran to Elite. 3 promotions in 3 battles, we must be MIL? Well, after spending the next two turns fortified in a barracks, we are fully healed and ready to return to the battlefield, this time with an extra hit point, the chance to spawn a leader, and of course a better chance of retreating if the fight goes against us.
Just one thing worries me: the oft-reported curse of the elite unit, whereby elites seem curiously incapable of winning battles that equivalent veterans could manage with their eyes shut. AI cheating or cognitive bias? Maybe I should start a thread about it General Discussions and watch the fur fly. :mischief:

Anyway, welcome back to the team Bucephalus, Kulko, PrinceMyshkin and socral. And welcome on board CommandoBob, Rodent and Whomp. :wavey: We sound like a pretty strong team, although with the community distilled down into just 4 teams, Ivan, Klarius and Spooks all have impressive line-ups too. I have absolutely no idea what order the 4 teams are going to finish in, but I'll be watching those progress graphs like a hawk.

Oh and for those that haven't played with me before: Hi, my name is PaperBeetle and I am a Civilization addict. Hi, my name is PaperBeetle. I mostly play and post at weekends or between 10pm and 4am GMT. My areas of expertise are micromanagement, spreadsheets, graph-watching and fog-gazing (I can't see anything at all of interest in the fog in the image Alan provided :rolleyes: ).

[/sign-in]

I have absolutely no idea what order the 4 teams are going to finish in, but I'll be watching those progress graphs like a hawk.

[/sign-in]

Since the others are SGOTM Regulars that's easy:

Elite
A long while nobody
The Regular crowd

@others: We should force PB limit himself to 1-2 Graph Hawking Analyses per Turnset. Otherwise he will try to predict things like the exact date where klarius let somebody else play a turnset and whether Ivan Knights army is right or left-handed out of the graphs.

He had been through So much. He had lived with the Bad-Smelling Fight-seeking Vikings, He had lived through some old man's Nightmare of Arranging Everything in Straight Lines, He had Participated in the FREE-GONG war and could'nt shoot a thing, And he had lived through a Rat's Dream of Defeating the World without moving out of the city.

And now He had Trudged through the Deserts of time and the Civilization Fanatic Forums and arrived at entirely the wrong place.

Elite he Mused, I am barely a Veteran, And I would fare miserably but for the Rat-Instinct, I only Pray to god that the Rat Instinct and the Rat Art of hiding in a hole will help me through this

Hello to all. PrinceMyshkin, CommandoBob can Introduce me

I like doing War, and dislike micromanagement. Will try my best though

And in the Meanwhile, lets hand out something for discussion. Do we move the settler for the wheat or do we stay put? Seeing that it is an plain wheat, I would favour staying put.

What do we build first? warrior or Curragh? Traditional wisdom suggests a Warrior but a Curragh can scout much faster, if only the coasts.

Checking in.

It's good to see so many familiar 'faces', especially my old mentor, Whomp.

Should be a blast.

The only real alternative I am seeing at the moment, would be to settle 1E. But then we are not coastal anymore and lose the wheat, too. Building an early curragh might pay off.

So, I am also voting for staying where we are.
Food, happiness, commerce, all is there. Looks like a nice starting position.

warrior first saves a turn, overall, as the breakpoints come out badly for the curragh and the warrior in the other case.

I have done a rough draft which does not yet include MM to the oyster whenever we have excess production.

I see no advantage in moving unless the worker move reveals anything better, which it won't do unless we decide to improve the wines tile first. What does Paperbeetle's infamous spreadsheets tell us about that?

Edit: crossed with Kulko. And I forgot we have a Scout.

I wont even bother to read the Graph and go with what you are suggesting.

Actually, a Curragh this early will have a hard time Finding any civs apart from Seafaring ones since they will be unlikely to have their borders this close, and meeting a unit is a chance thing.

So Warrior first is a good idea

Settling in place is a no-brainer. Work the moo of course, so the worker goes there to irrigate and road. The first build looks like a 10-shielder, but we could try a second scout instead of an axe. Having done the moo, the worker needs to head over to the wheat, but does it stop to road the plains ivory on the way? The second build could be a curragh, in which case we can run a settler factory at size 5.10 > 7.10, as per Kulko's spreadsheet. Alternatively, we could put a worker in instead of the curragh, in which case the factory runs at 4.10 > 6.10. In either case, the granary is done in turn 22, and the 4-turn settlers start coming immediately after that.
Or how about scout, worker, curragh, followed by granary on turn 23 (with a chop) and then 4-turn settlers at size 4.15 > 6.15?

I like the idea of a second worker, since we could connect the Ivory before we need it greatly, that is, at size 2. (I like connecting luxuries early.) If we have a 4 turn settler pump, we'll need those workers for early improvements and roading. After the granary I favor building a rowbat, where we can us our extra movement (which is not the same as in a normal game) to meet civs faster.

Being SEA on this map, it seems sort of obvious that we would want to be tech brokers, right?

We are the only SEA in this game, according to the opening post by AlanH. And we have an Archipelago (?) land mass. Which means that we may not have a lot of room for a whole bunch of cities on this landmass. The last Archipelago map I played was SGOTM 12(?) with Theodora and the 1BC UN. I'm not very familiar with them.

Which is another way of saying, How fast can we get to Galleys (overseas settler pairs)?

Well 60% archipelagos typically turn out a lot like 70% continents in terms of the size and number of landmasses, it's just that the shapes of the landmasses are more intricate. So under normal 60% arch circumstances I would happily take the time to set up a settler factory. Of course, this being an SGOTM, the circumstances may not be normal, but our scout should be able to confirm that for us before we have to make any firm decisions.

We have a strong starting location; a fast 4-turner, a river, 2 luxes. And I presume Portugal starts with Alphabet, so the Republic slingshot looks pretty easy if we want it. That would likely delay Mapping such that we would trade for it rather than research it ourselves. I guess we only need to get Mapping before the point at which we run out of expansion room.

How fast does a SEA curragh travel under differential naval movement? 5 I think, which will mostly translate to 3 tiles per turn. Also, I noticed in the last game (as Henry sunk our entire Portuguese invasion force) that the carrack has not had its movement points boosted for different movement. I think this means that it is stuck at 4, which is pretty lame.

Common Games
Back in Who-5: Tom Tom Club builds a party lounge training game (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=171514), Bucephelas and I were students at the feet of Whomp, back in his pre-Moderator days. That SG started in May 06 and finished in March 07.

PrinceMyshkin I have met in the Multi Team Demo Game II, but we were/are on different teams. We had a brief but cordial exchange of PMs.

Rodent and I have played in several recent SGs; Rod1- Something Enjoyable (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=274260) and eldar08: Gridlocked! (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=267120) come to mind, but there may been others.

I think that PaperBeetle was part of Team KISS in MTDG 1; if so we were teammates briefly.

I haven't had the privilege of playing with socralynnek or Kulko until now.

Playing Style
I'm trying to be a better micro-manager. I'm much better than I was, but I haven't graduated to Spreadsheet Analysis yet. :D I understand it and can follow it; I just can't bring myself to create one for the game. Not yet, anyway.

My first SGOTM was #9, fresh with one Monarch win after playing around for a long time at Chieftian. My strategy skills were poor and my grasp of Civ3 at this level of play was nil, so I made some mistakes. As a result of that, we (the team) began to create a strategy post before we played our turns. It would include such things as long range goals, mid range goals, short range goals. Short range goals became pretty specific, down to worker turns, next city builds, when to hire/fire specialists and things like that. The idea was that by planning and posting, the rest of the team could spot errors and mistakes.

I still have that habit (create a strategy plan, post it, wait for feedback, and then play my turns based on the feedback). I don't know if fits into this team's playing style, which is why I mention it.

Playing style
Being a team of seasoned veterans we have adopted very lax rules. We discuss a lot, but there are no enforced rules about it. Your strategy posts are certainly welcome.

Roster
Normally we tried to alternate stronger and weaker players, but looking a our roster I would have to play every second set then. SO we need a new approach. How about switching weekend/weekday players to get a smooth playing style.

Strategy
The goal is Domination with many survivors and I think we should try to keep everybody alive in the beginning.
Since the capitals of crippled AIs will become a culture hassle over time I suggest to gift them a new city from time to time and destroy the old palace. That should take care of that problem.

We are located on the bigger central landmass, and first target should be fast conquest of all our ancestral lands.

Tactics
coming up shortly after I tuned the excel.

Roster

I'm fairly flexible, but school holidays cramp my style a bit due to child care issues; it's half-term atm, so I'd prefer to avoid an early slot.

Strategy

Further to what Kulko said, we should keep a close eye on AI-AI wars, gifting cities as necessary to avoid elimination of weak civs.

Tactics
Ok took a bit longer as Open Office crashed a few times on me.

The new spreadsheet for two worker looks a bit strange, but that was the best I could come up with. Please someone check this carefully as I am not sure this is really the best solution (especially the early mining of the bg). But focusing on early irrigation just leads to lots of wasted growth without setting up the factory earlier.

Spreadsheets make my Head Ache, I dislike doing Mathematics in Civ and go mostly by instinct.

I will load up the save and tell what the rat-instinct says.

Roster

I Won't be strict. It would be good to arrange the best players at the top and put me at the bottom, CommandoBob will tell that I am bad at Early Turns.

Tactics

I Usually dont discuss, but since this is a competition, I will want discussion on every Important point, like Tech Trading, Although we should still let the players do a lot by instinct

Skills

Played a lot of War SGs, And I can do war better than I can do peace.

Spreadsheets make my Head Ache, I dislike doing Mathematics in Civ and go mostly by instinct.

I will load up the save and tell what the rat-instinct says.

Well, in a normal SG that's fine, but not in a competetive SG. Here we are playing against other teams, not just the AI. The spreadsheets help us plan our first moves, and gives us a way to discuss those moves. The first 50 turns in any game really determine a lot about the rest of the game. With these turns so important, we need to be very careful about what we do.

And the spreadsheet is a way to help us plan what to do.

Tactics

I Usually dont discuss, but since this is a competition, I will want discussion on every Important point, like Tech Trading, Although we should still let the players do a lot by instinct.

Not only will we be discussing the important points, we'll probably be discussing less important points, like city builds, unit production and city-citizen allocation.

We'll still have a lot to manage and to do on our own, however.

The spreadsheet looks fine to me.

I can't wait to start planting cities.

Um, do we have any city naming conventions? That is, do city names need to include the word 'Elite' in them?

Hello everyone! I'm back in town so will offer some thoughts.

Playing style--I'm a builder at heart (Scoutsout style). :mischief:


I like to build cities, so that I may build an empire...
I like to build barracks, so I can build veteran units.
I like to build roads, to connect my trade network, make some gold, and move some units.
I like to build markets, for happiness, gold, and unit support.
I like to build libraries, so I can learn to build better units.
I like to build MORE cities, for more unit support
I like to build railroads, so I can move my units really fast.
I like to build factories, so I can build units faster
I like to build things that throw rocks and drop bombs, so I can ... kill other civs' units!
I like to build universities and banks... (see "libraries" and "markets")
I like to build airfields, so I can move units around really, REALLY fast.
There's only one thing on that list I don't like building. :D

Roster--The only suggestion I have here is maybe splitting those in European timezones with North American timezones so we can keep this baby moving.

Strategy--I think our goal should be to get as many contacts as fast as possible. This means boats and running units through the AI's territory. Accelerating the research pace is fully to our advantage and I think we should gift scientifics into the next age when the opportunity arises.

Tactics--One tactic we should discuss is war happiness. Anytime the AI is willing to declare on us we should tell them to "shove it". They will make demands of gold or techs and my opinion is we rarely cave in. It's like a free lux when they do this.

The only caveat would be where the AI is a close neighbor that will stop us from expanding. Food is power so mm'ing is the only way to accomplish this.

We should also try protecting civs once they're down to one city. Maybe consider encircling them or where they are hard to reach.

Strategy
Why is a fast tech pace to our advantage? Its not like we need to reach the UN asap. I would have thought we conquer the world with knights unless we really need better transport.

War Happyness
I fully agree to middlefinger any AI not on our continent for a bit of happyness. We might even want to farm for it, by renegotiating the peaces.

Some more Thoughts on Long-term Strategy.

We can keep an Close eye on AI-AI wars, especially in our Neighbourhood and Intervene if one AI starts to stomp the Other (Celtic Peacekeepers)

We will want the AI fighting us and not each other, the human can survive an attack by Stronger Foes, an AI wont. Stealing Crucial Resources from AIs also serves the Purpose.

Also, We dont need a fast Tech pace, The Crucial Number is the number of AI still alive, Heck, we might finish in 2050 ;)

Also, We dont need a fast Tech pace, The Crucial Number is the number of AI still alive, Heck, we might finish in 2050 ;)

Just to avoid misunderstandings the rule is 10 points per AI - 1 point per turn used.

So killing an AI is ok, if it saves 10 turns, and we definitely want to finish with a "standard" fast domination game, because everybody else will too.

Normally I like AI vs. AI wars, but that doesn't work in our favor in this game.

So once we reduce our closest neighbors to one city civs, how do we get them to play nice with each other? Modified AW to keep them mad at us and not each other?

I think the idea of gifting away small cities to the AI so that we can control them is great. But, having a clump of AI capitals close together seems sort of dangerous without us maintaing order some how. The easiest way would entail a constant war with these 'clumped' civs. Then they will too busy focused on us to kill their neighbor. That also means we have to maintain a military force on those borders, so that we can beat back any excursions of the AI.

All this is in the future and the map may give us better solutions.

Is Kulko's spreadsheet acceptable for our first 30 turns?

Roster?

Roster Suggestion:

Kulko
CommandoBob
Bucephalos
socralynnek
Whomp
Rodent
Paperbeetle

Tech
Writing at ful speed I assume

Scout
Wine and then out to search AIs?

Tech Trading
Whe I meet Civs there is no need o refrain from traing I assume?

No sign of PrinceMyshkin yet? :binoculars:

I always have trouble translating between other people's spreadsheets and my own, because of my wierd implementation of worker actions and interturns, but shouldn't your second worker be moving to his first task on the same turn that the first worker is also walking? On my spreadsheet it looks like this...
192003

It is also possible to lean on the food a bit more while growing to size 3, and use that mined bg in preference to the wine, with the effect of bringing the granary and settlers forward by one turn. The price is of course less commerce, though I'm not sure the exact scale of the difference, as this isn't the spreadsheet which includes luxury spending and support costs.
192004

You are right about the worker.

Should I play the first turns tomorrow?

I am fine with building a scout instead of a warrior.

Being an early tech broker might be crucial to gaining control, which is what we need.
Totally different from last SGOTM where we had to sit and wait and hope...

I don't know which of the two spreadsheets sounds more nice, but I am fine with them.

Strategy
Why is a fast tech pace to our advantage? Its not like we need to reach the UN asap. I would have thought we conquer the world with knights unless we really need better transport.
.
My thoughts on speed is based on a number of things...
-- how slowly the AI is to upgrade units once they've hit their unit limits.
--With a faster pace (amongst the top AI's) means more opportunities to get 2 and 3 fer's.
--The deity AI will fund a lot of research once they get markets built and all the extra gpt can mean 100% research and/or unit upgrades.
--I'd presume we'll need galleons to make a dent on other islands so speeding towards galleons would make sense to me.

One other thought on trading...
Trading techs like mad makes sense to me but trading luxs to top tier AI's does not. The AI will use clowns in lieu of using the slider for happiness. The less lux they have the slower they'll grow.

Any thoughts on some of this?

Hey, all. Checking in to affirm I'm still around though I've had a few interests outside of CivIII, lately.:eek: Don't leave me out of the roster just yet.

I like the spreadsheet and the build order, I think. Like CommandoBob I haven't used a spreadsheet in any of my games, but I do find them helpful. I'm usually pretty careful about examining each town/city and looking for MM'g opportunities, though. Especially in the early game. I'll probably post a plan for discussion about each turn-set I play as I like to get as much advice as possible. I like Whomp's description of a builder as quoted by scoutsout, but I hope we don't have to go as far as factories.

One caveat about the scout first. What if we discover a nearby ai in say the first 3-4 turns. Would we still feel comfortable with no mp's? IIRC even a player of Chamnix' ability was destroyed or crippled three XOTM's in a row by going farmer's gambit early. AlanH wouldn't do that to us for this game, would he?

I think for this game overall we should plan for a quick domination without thinking too much ahead about preserving the ai until we get more map information. I agree with Whomp getting boats out and as many early contacts and as much map knowledge as possible early is key. Archipelago map seems like it might make ai on ai kills more difficult than, say, pangaea.

I also like the idea of at least building libraries for a faster tech pace. Libraries in the core can go a long way to mitigating those pesky flips and we won't get a real chance for a GA until we get to astronomy for our carracks, anyway. If PB is right about them not getting extra movement, then going for galleons might make some sense as well. Also, the faster we get to the last tech we need to win, the earlier we can cut off research and cash-rush our way to victory.

To play or not to play, that is here the question.

Updated Roster:
Kulko
CommandoBob
Bucephalos
socralynnek
Whomp
Rodent
Paperbeetle
PrinceMyshkin

The deity AI will fund a lot of research once they get markets built and all the extra gpt can mean 100% research and/or unit upgrades.

All very true, Whomp..... this is DG, though. ;)

I'm cool with the roster, but it will be Monday before I'm free to play. If I'm up before then, ie the weekend, maybe I could swap with PaperBeetle who expressed a preference for weekends.

4000 BC (1)
Camp Elite founded
there is another bg in our radius. Looks like a perfect 20K position for me.
Research Writing at max.

3950 BC (2)
3900 BC (3)
3850 BC (4)
3800 BC (5)
3750 BC (6)
Camp Elite Scout --> Worker

3700 BC (7)
We meet our first friend, Sultan Osman.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=192095&stc=1&d=1224594957

He offers
BW + 20 gp for Alpha
Masonry for Alpha + 9 gp

I would choose BW because getting money is the most important thing in the beginning.

I am waiting or input and continue playing in 5 hours or so, to give the Americans a chance to reply.

Further Screenshots are attached, showing lots of fertile land around us. I will definitely replay that game for a 20K approach when its over.

Thats a Close Neighbour, That will make him Easier to Defend though.

Let's take his gold. We can find a good use for it, like deficit research.

Edrine is Ottoman city #2, correct?

I would choose BW because getting money is the most important thing in the beginning.

I disagree; 20g is an insignificant amount, and Masonry has much greater trade value than BW.

Playing Style
If you allow I few words about myself.

I am neither a war monger nor a micro manager (I think I am ok at both) but a worrier. I play any turnset you like, but its normally 2 hours of pure hell for me, because a always afraid that one of my tiny mistakes which I mix in regularly at my single player games. I actually spend 2 minutes i 4000BC worrying if there was any hidden action I might have forgotten.

So please, to make it a bit less miserable for me, if post small questions about obvious little things like the research of writing, take the time to answer with a short approval, it will make my turnset much more relaxed.

AI Defense
I shouldn't think we should worry too much about the AI survival. These guys are kings of stupidity when it comes to finishing somebody off. And the design has taken extra steps to avoid that. Outward lying AIs are on islands on their own. Everybody has a bonus pike.

We should scout early for as many contacts as we can and then play a normal game and take it as it comes. Especially I am not worried about anybody located at our own continent. SGOTM10 had a similar setup and if I remember correctly nobody dared as much as a sneeze without asking us for approval. And that was before we swept up the whole continent in like 60 turns. we just need to make sure that we don't screw up when somebody is reduced to a single city but the other guys are till at full strength. but such a blockade should b easy to set up. As soon as everybody is reduced to a nice little capital in the tundra, they should not be able to overcome each others defenses. 4 Knights as a police to avert landings is all it should need then.

Edrine is Ottoman city #2, correct?

Yep. It just sprang up in the last interturn.

I disagree; 20g is an insignificant amount, and Masonry has much greater trade value than BW.

That's true, but my experience is that we get all available techs as soon as we get writing. But getting 20 gp means another 15 turns at max research speeding up the whole thing. And the goal should be to reach Republic (or monarchy?) as fast as possible. Also note we even need to pay 9 gp to get Masonry, so we would have no gold left at all.

That's true, but my experience is that we get all available techs as soon as we get writing.

That will be true only if we have the necessary contacts at that stage; we cannot be sure of that on an archipelago map that has been tweaked.

But getting 20 gp means another 15 turns at max research speeding up the whole thing. And the goal should be to reach Republic (or monarchy?) as fast as possible. Also note we even need to pay 9 gp to get Masonry, so we would have no gold left at all.

That seems a bit of a contradiction; if the goal is to reach Republic asap, then we will be hoping for the slingshot, in which case why trade Alphabet at all?

Playing Style
If you allow I few words about myself.

I am neither a war monger nor a micro manager (I think I am ok at both) but a worrier. I play any turnset you like, but its normally 2 hours of pure hell for me, because a always afraid that one of my tiny mistakes which I mix in regularly at my single player games. I actually spend 2 minutes i 4000BC worrying if there was any hidden action I might have forgotten.
That pretty much describes me in these SGOTMs. In a normal solo or SG, hey, I just make a decision (a deliberate decision, not a snap-judgement) and go with it. But in this game, no; not quite.

Somehow, I just got accustomed to the pressure and now it does not bother me anymore.

I just wish I could play a turnset in 2 hours. The initial 20 turns I probably could, but not after that. In Rod01, which I worked on last night, it took me an hour to do a limited preflight analysis and to cycle through the cities. I probably take, on average, about an hour per turn.

I always trade Alpha, but wait a bit with Writing, but maybe you are right?

Any other ideas? I will probably leave it for tomorrow.

I'm not sure if I'm saying don't trade it, but if we do, Masonry is a far more tempting offer IMO - it is often difficult to acquire from the AI.

I would certainly hold on for some more opinions, though.

I always have trouble translating between other people's spreadsheets and my own,

It is also possible to lean on the food a bit more while growing to size 3, and use that mined bg in preference to the wine, with the effect of bringing the granary and settlers forward by one turn. The price is of course less commerce, though I'm not sure the exact scale of the difference, as this isn't the spreadsheet which includes luxury spending and support costs.


I just had the trouble translating back :-) You are right on the worker, but wrong on the saved turn for the granary, it comes out at the same turn, we just put our builds down a different way. You can see that all your builds are one turn before mine.

Wow Ivan + klarius both build temple in turn 20 If I a not mistaken.

Money or tech? I tend to say Money.

Normally, one can trade Alphabet, because probably they'd get it in a turn or two from somebody else.

BTW, that way Civ3 looks like in german...I had always installed the English version...

I thought only remote civs get those pikes...which means an early war is off limits.

I thought only remote civs get those pikes...which means an early war is off limits.
Uh? Why? :confused:

My tendency would be to take masonry. Masonry leads to pyramids and we'll want all of our neighbors building the very expensive pyramids. Trading masonry around will give us a better shot of conquering it later and those that don't finish it will have an enormous amount of wasted shields going into it.

I play any turnset you like, but its normally 2 hours of pure hell for me, because a always afraid that one of my tiny mistakes which I mix in regularly at my single player games. I actually spend 2 minutes i 4000BC worrying if there was any hidden action I might have forgotten.

:yup: That's the agony and ecstasy of playing an SG!

Well I think Writing is the correct research, and getting out and meeting people (and learning about their technology) is the correct thing to do with our first units. So I'm happy with your plan.
As for the Alphabet trade, I think I would vote for Bronze. As well as effectively letting us reach Writing 30 beakers sooner, it would me more useful if we get menaced by an Ottoman unit. Specifically, if we get spooked into switching our granary build to a unit, a spear gets us a bit more power for our shields.
With respect to going for the slingshot, I usually trade Alphabet liberally, but keep hold of Writing until after I have finished with Laws and am about to start Philosophy.

Wow Ivan + klarius both build temple in turn 20 If I a not mistaken.

Ah no, that's the palace's cpt doubling at 3000bc. However, I think we can say that team Klarius build a second town at RCP3 during their second turnset. Team Ivan build their second town during their first turnset, at RCP4. So probably Klarius have gone for a granary as we have, but Ivan have built their first settler before the granary.

BTW, that way Civ3 looks like in german...I had always installed the English version...


Yep it is. When I bought CIII complete 4 years ago, the plain version was german only, and installing Conquest in English didn't work. But I had no problems with it. I just had to adjust AlanHs SGOTM-Mod but that's easy once you have looked into it.

And of Course all the xotm are now a strange mixture of english and german, depending on whats fixed in the save and whats in the game.

Tech Trade
We are now a solid 3:2 in favor of BW. Voting is open for another 10-12 hours as I head back to work today after my yearly autumn flu.

Bronze Working, Its Useful for Early Defense, and Masonry is not a tech that we can't get.

Trading Alpha was a bit of a risk in my Opinion

Whomp's point about the Pyramid gambit is a fair one, but I still lean towards Bronze in this case. After all, we aren't talking about buying Masonry from someone 40 tiles away and trading it to our neighbours. Here the guy with Masonry already is our nearest neighbour, and he might even have the good grace to sell it to any other AIs that are on our continent.

I am fine with BW.

3700 BC (6) continued

Trade Alpa for BW + 20 gp to Osman

IBT: Osman wants us to leave

3650 BC (7)
We cave in to Osmans demands and continue to explore the unknown lands. Edirne was never to our liking anyway.
Outsides the borders we meet the burgundians (Goody Hut) and convince them that Edirne is not the place where they want to live. So they pick up their Swords and follow us. Also we see the borders of Constantinople in the mist further to the east. Does look like a normal distance for a rival civ to me.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=192203&stc=1&d=1224710647

We also find more incense to our south, so thats three Luxuries within our likely base empire.

IBT: Saladin walks into the picture right between Edirne and Constantinople. Right onto the lookout mountain I had planned asthe next move for my scout. After we start thus on the wrong foot, he continues endearing himself by having 3 techs up (Masonry, CB and WC) without missing any of ours.

3600 BC (8)
Camp Elite: Worker --> Wealth (1 turn)

3550 BC (9)
Camp Elite: Wealth --> Curragh

3500 BC (10)

Our second Scouts pays off already. We meet Russia before they meet the Ottomans.
We trade Alpha for WC, Worker and 24 gp.

Now my wunderful little spreadsheet is totally screwed.

3450 BC (11)
Camp Elite grows. I could probably leave lux to 0% as the ivory comes online this turn, but decide to play it save.

3400 BC (12)
And right next to arabia meet King Shaka of the Zulus. Ok, mabe we should be on the lookout for this guy.
There is also the first barb warrior around. Shaka is also up Masonry + CB so ne trading potential here either.

3350 BC (13)
Nothing happens.

3300 BC (14)
Camp Elite: Curragh --> Granary

Shaka discovers horses (TW).

3250 BC (15)
Curragh discovers next island and spots a new border too. Will cross there immediately.

3200 BC (16)
Camp Elite growth

Meet Celtia , Trade WC for CB + 10 gp. We are still up Alpha.

3150 BC (17)
Meet Babylon (on our Continent) We are up Pot + Alpha, but they have nothing worth trading for.

3100 BC (18)
Babs gets Alpha + Masonry in one turn but doesn't want to trade it for Pottery.

Turnset finished.

Conclusio: (pictures see previous post)

We are strictly on plan with the spreadsheet, with the added benefit of a slave, who is irrigating the ivory plains.

We are cornered by 5 Civs from the NE to the SE:
Ottomans
Arabs
Zulus
Russia
Babylon

On our West is the next island already where we meet the Celts.

Arab and Zulu are up TW + Myst. Everybody else is up Masonry. We are up Alph on Celts (no Masonry there) and Pot on Babylon.

The Score doesn't appreciate our extra 1.5 Workers as much as the military the others probably build, but I think we are in a pretty good shape. As soon as the Settler Pump is up, we need to press hard to get enough space as the AI will soon start coming after our land.

I am a bit wary of the aggressive Zulus, hope they don't go ballistic on somebody to soon.

Kulko Over and Out.


Roster
Kulko - just played
CommandoBob - Up
Bucephalos - on Deck
socralynnek
Whomp
Rodent
Paperbeetle

Nice set Kulko. It appears the BW trade panned out well. Did you happen to notice if anyone started Pyramids? I really think the civ that finishes it should be a prime suspect.

Yeah looks good...too bad we have to readjust the spreadsheet cause of that extra half-worker...;-)

Here's some thoughts on a dotmap. I'm not sure I like white and green's spot but a few that look quite powerful.



http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/1182/dotmap2hm5.jpg

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/8430/dotmapbt9.jpg

Personally I would let some of those RCP3 towns slide out to RCP4, to free up bgs and hills, and to get more towns onto fresh water...
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=192225&stc=1&d=1224728936
(The purple rings are just approximate locations of further settlements - their exact placement would probably be influenced more by adjacent AI towns rather than the terrain or RCP.)

If this were PtW, I would use strict RCP4&6, with yellow moved 1SW, dark blue 1S (where you had it), and pink 1NW. And I would be jolly thankful for such an accommodating map! :)

I'm going to be on the continent until Monday. I will try to check in on the thread, but I won't be able to play any turns or look at the save.

Nobody I met had started any wonders yet.

But Russia and Ottoman have Workers available in their capital for now for 2 turns (and we have nothing to trade to them. This strange disease also fell on the zulus this turn, but maybe they just build one.

Also did you notice this nice strip of capital farming country up north? Rather convinient for our diplomatic corps, that they won't need to walk very far for "foreign" visits once we cleared that mess up.

City Placement

What has worked quite well in SGOTM10 for us was using an "outside in" Placement approach, by focusing the first wave of settlers on the RCP6 Positions. The RCP4 positions are then not interesting anymore for the AI, becuase they are crowded in between the capital and the existing RCP 6 Cities. This left us with nice two rings of towns, even so we started with 2 AIs quite near.

Dots
The capital will run as Settler factory for quite a while, using only 1 of its bgs (or wine). So we should make sure the others are accessible from other cities too.
Therefore I prefer the dark green placement of Whomp over PBs, as it allows Access to the Wine and the Ivory, when the capital doesn't use them.
In the north I prefer PBs set, for the obvious reason that it doesn't sit on a BG.

Given all the above my first locations would be:
dark green (whomp)
dark red (PB)
light blue (PB)
2 spots in the north (yellow and the unmarked spot near the plains river.

PS: Sorry, but I can't get my fingers on a screenshot right now to paint my plan more exact.

Trading
Is there any way to get all these Slaves available for auction? I don't assume they are worth paying gpt at this point of the game, but it will be a while before we can sell techs again, and it hurts to see them all available.

Research Path
Are we planning on standard Republic Slingshot? Writing - CoL - Philo + Republic?

Personally, I favor PB's suggestion.

Anyway, I think the next city might already secure Incense. If not next city, then the one after that. We need some more happy faces...

Whomp's dark green city as 2nd city? It has neither food bonus nor luxury resource (only after expansion), so maybe another should go first.

We need to look for the Celts or Babylonians wanting to trade in each turn. Tech brokering might get us quite far without us selling Writing.

I also favor most of PB's spots. It's never been my practice to have more than a foot soldiers distance between cities but we have to work with what we've got.

Moving the red dot out one more space seems fine since it can still steal both wheat resources from time to time. Though I didn't like landing on the BG on the blue dot part of my thinking there was sharing the oysters for food every so often. I understand why we'd prefer production from this spot. PB's dark green seems to be a very solid spot as well.

I still do absolutely not understand the reasoning behind the RCP4 placement.

I see the following clear disadvantages:
- The only city which has significant room for growth in PBs suggestion is the capital, which will run at size 4-5 for at least the next 80 turns churning out settlers.

- There will be mined and irrigated luxuries which will be used only every second turn. This wastes money for research/upgrades

- Every tile which will be used by the new cities will have to improved first, instead of using tiles near the Cap, which are prepared already. This slows down development.

I do not think we must alter it completely, but I would much prefer a mixture of PBs and Whomps plans:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=192384&stc=1&d=1224880168


As for the Roster, has anybody seen CommandoBob? Or is anybody else willing to jump in? I think by sunday we should have discussed this out and be able to play on?

As for the Roster, has anybody seen CommandoBob? Or is anybody else willing to jump in? I think by sunday we should have discussed this out and be able to play on?
I'm around. City mapping is not something I am good at, so I've been watching the posts and waiting for a decision.

Granary in 5, settler in 4 more; but which Dot is the First Dot?

I think the first dot is the purple ish one SW of the capital. It has the food to grow which we need first imo. I'm not sure it loses much going out 2 spaces rather than 3 so that's really the big decision. Having access to developed tiles seems to make sense to me and pushing out another spot doesn't seem to have a huge benefit.

The blue dot would be my 2nd choice. Getting some coastals up for boats and lowering tech coasts along with tech speed still is important imo.

Agree, that our second town should be one with a food resource, so purpleish is fine with me.

But we might want to settle the incense towards the Ottos soon, because otherwise he might steal us the space there.

I think coastal first is a good idea, we definitely want more curraghs fast.

As for the next few cities, I agree that pushing out to secure space is a good plan. but I would rather secure the wheat in the wheat, so the turquise is my preference for number two. All in al we will probably take a dent in some area, as there are 5 guys around who will have nowhere to go but our lands in about 10 turns. I think the Ottoman is actually the smallest problem, as his capital is stuck in the ice, where it can't really grow.

:cringe: I admit I didn't take tile-sharing into account as much as I should have done. Perhaps I've been brainwashed by all those threads started by Pyrros and Doug Lefelhocz in General Discussions and Strategy. So yeah, maybe it is okay to leave the SW wheat town at RCP3. But as for sharing the wines and ivory with a town on the SE river, I would rather leave my dark green dot at RCP4 but bring my black dot in to RCP3 due south of the capital. Similarly my white dot could also move in to RCP3 due east of the capital, if we think the capital's moo or bg might be up for sharing at some point.

I think that's reasonable. I would even leave the white dot at RCP4. I put it all into dotmaps again, for sharing.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=192537&stc=1&d=1225009734

A and B are the first two spots I would found. How to go on afterwards should be decided on where the AI stands. But if we manage to get out half the spots of the outer circle before the AI comes, we can make all the spots in between unsettlable for th AI algorithm.

PS: Bob, let's get his thing moving.

Long Term Goals
Dominate but don't eliminate.

Mid Term Goals
Explore our landmass with two Scouts.
Explore the rest of the world with Curraghs, and later, Galleys.
Tech plans: Writing -> Code of Laws -> Philosophy (Republic)


Short Term Goals
Manage production in Camp Elite according the spreadsheet. Granary on Turn 24 and then settlers every 4 turns.
First settler (Turn 28) goes to City Dot RedA.
Second settler (Turn 32) goes to City Dot GreenB.

Two City Locations:

RedA is 3SW of Camp Elite.
GreenB is 4SE of Camp Elite.


Settler for City Dot RedA completes on Turn 28, is born on Turn 29, moves to City Dot RedA on Turn 29 and builds a city on Turn 30.
New city builds a ... curragh?

Worker Tasks (Turns):
Worker (chopping forest SE of Camp Elite): finish in 3 (20, 21 and 22).
Worker begins to road in place, connecting Ivory (23, 24 and 25).
Worker moves SE across river (26).
Worker mines BG (27, 28, 29, 30, 31 and 32) for City Dot GreenB.

Worker (roading the Wine hill): finish in 4 (20, 21, 22 and 23).
Worker moves SW to plains/forest (24).
Worker moves SW to plains (25).
Worker moves SW to plains/Wheat (26).
Worker irrigates Wheat (27, 28, 29 and 30) for City Dot RedA.

Slave (irrigating plains SW of Camp Elite): finish in 6 (20, 21, 22, 23, 24 and 25).
Slave moves S into forest (26).
Slave begins forest chop for City Dot RedA (27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33 and 34).

Trading
We still lack Masonry and The Wheel of the tier 1 techs. Might be able to buy Writing from a new Civ, once we meet them. Once we know Writing, we might be able to trade for Masonry and The Wheel.
Slaves are available, but we have nothing to offer.

Science
If we connect Ivory, 100% science.
Regardless of Ivory, may need to adjust the smart slider to keep Camp Elite productive.

International
Hope that the Ottoman rSpear 2W of Elite Camp goes away.

Fine with me.

Add that: Check for trading possibilities each and every turn.

Rest looks good.

Sounds good to me. I agree with a curragh as the first build of the new town, but what do we want to build further down the line? In particular, are we going to try to prebuild Lighthouse, Glib or Zeus? I would suggest trying to pick up at least one of these; if we want a shot at the Lighthouse, we should prebuild in either the SW wheat town or the NW bg town. If we only try for Zeus, the SE wheat town (GreenB) is the strongest. For an inland prebuild we will need Masonry, but for a coastal prebuild, we already have Colossus available.

Open Paint (startplan.gif), Notepad (this log), MapStat and then C3C.

Camp Elite is working 4 tiles, while the spreadsheet only shows 3 tiles. But we are working the correct tiles (cow, wheat, hill and BG).
We already have one Ivory connected, which I missed earlier.
Hit Enter.

Ottto Spear moves away to the East, but is replaced with a Russian rWarrior and rSpear.

Babylon is upset about our scout. We promise to be nice.

01 2950 BC

Curragh01, outside of Celt borders, sails clockwise around this land.
ScoutA, in the jungles SE of Zulu, is approached by a barbarian; moves N.
ScoutB, NE of Babylon, moves along the road S and SW, ending 1S of Babylon.


Russian units move back east.
Barbarian follows ScoutA.

02 2900 BC

ScoutA moves N onto a hill and finds Ulundi, Zulu.
Curragh01 finds the south end of Celtdom.
ScoutB moves W and confirms that Babylon, Babylon, is at the end of a pennisula. Land and a Green-Yellow border are visible to the SW. ScoutB moves S for a better view. Must be someone's second city, only a 3 tile border.

Forest chop completes this IBT, which should build the granary in Camp Elite.


Russians head north, out of sight.
Barbarian turns West, attacks someone and dies.

Camp Elite granary -> settler in 5.

[I] 03 2850 BC

WorkerA, forest chop completed, begins to road this Ivory grassland.
ScoutA, heads north, hilltop to hilltop, now NW of Ulundi.
ScoutB moves 2N, planning to walk out of Babylon's city limits next turn.
Curragh01 sails 2N up the west coast of Celtdom.


Brennus of the Celts is touchy about his coastal waters around Entermont. We promise to behave.

[I] 04 2800 BC

ScoutB, 2N and ends in neutral desert.
ScoutA, moves N and then E to avoid 2 Arab rWarriors.
WorkerB, the Wines hill now roaded, moves SW into forest.
Curragh01 NW and N, and spies Lugdunum.

Camp Elite is now size 5; 2 Happy, 1 Content, 2 Unhappy; settler in 3. grows in 3.
Camp Elite is working the Cow, Wheat, Wines (hill), mined BG and forest; 8 spt and +4 fpt.
That looks right, but I'll trust the spreadsheet. Citizen on the forest works a BG.

Ottomans have learned Mysticism and so has Arabia.



[I] 05 2750 BC

ScoutA moves 2E, now 2N of Zimbabwe and ready to enter Arab land next turn.
WorkerB moves SW, forest to plains.
Curragh01 sails 2N, into and out of Celt waters.
ScoutB moves 2N.

Babylon and Russia learn Mysticism. Celts are still ignorant of that knowledge.



[I] 06 2710 BC

Camp Elite grows to size 6. New citizen assiged to the forest; it works a grass tile. Citizen on BG works oyster. Settler in 1.
Increase Luxuries to 20%.
Camp Elite has 3 Happy, 1 Content and 2 Unhappy.
Writing in 12 (not 10) but still only -3 gpt.

WorkerA, the 2nd Ivory now connected, moves SE across the river.
Slave01 moves 1S to the forest, now that the Plains Elephant is watered.
WorkerB moves SW on to Wheat.
Curragh01, N and NE, nothing interesting.
ScoutB, now 2S of St. Petersburg, moves W into desert and then W onto plains 1N of Nineveh, Babylon.
ScoutA, NW and N, and ends 1SW of Medina, Arabia.


Arabs get cranky aobut ScoutA. We take their abuse.

Camp Elite settler -> settler in 5. Set to work Cow, Wheat, Wine and mined BG.

Russian Spear and Warrior 1N-2NE of camp Elite.

Ottoman city of Bursa is 3W-1NW of Camp Elite.

[I] 07 2670 BC

WorkerA begins to mine this BG, for our third city, finish in 6.
Slave01 begins a forest chop for our second city, finish in 8.
WorkerB begins to irrigate the Wheat, finish in 4.
SettlerToRedDotA moves 3SW and stops on RedDotA.
Curragh01 NE and N, still sight-seeing.
ScoutB moves W, plains to plains, and finds ocean. Fog gazing to the south indicates more ocean real soon. ScoutB moves N, plains to plains, and spots Babylon Spear and Warrior to the NE.
ScoutA, still in Arabia, moves N and N again. Sees a Reddish/Purple border to the east, across the water.
ScoutA has found 8 Ivory inside Arabia.



[I] 08 2630 BC

Camp Elite now size 5; new citizen works the BG north of the city.
ScoutB moves NW and N along the coast. Finds a Barbarain camp. Not good.
Curragh01 N and finds America.

America knows Masonry but lacks Alphabet, Warrior Code and Ceremonial Burial. He has 10 gold, we have 25.
We can get Masonry and 10 of 10 gold for Alphabet.
We can get Masonry and 10 of 10 gold for Warrior Code and Ceremonial Burial.
Hmm. Celts know both Warrior Code and Ceremonial Burial, but still lack Alphabet. They are also broke.
The Celts and Americans have border contact, so our trading time might be short.
Power up CAII to check tech costs.
Right now, Masonry is 120; WC is 85; CB is 54; Alphabet is 147.

We don't [I]need Masonry at this moment, but we can't buy it, either.

Trade Deal with America

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/SGOTM14-Elite/ts02/T2630_AmericaTrade.jpg


We sell Warrior Code and Ceremonial Burial to America for Masonry and 10 of 10 gold.

Curragh01 sails N again.

ScoutA moves N, plains to plains and finds Mecca, the capital of Arabia. Moves N again, onto a mined BG.

SettlerToRedDotA founds Elities Wheaties. It works the irrigated Ivory and begins training a Scout in 5. A Curragh would complete in 8, but the forest chop by Slave01 completes in 7. Building a Scout first (since we are about to lose one) followed by a Curragh, uses the full chop.

Forgot to lower the Luxury rate last turn. Drat.

Raise it back to 90%.

Writing in 7, -1 gpt, 35 gold.


Gepids kill ScoutB.

Zulu rWarrior appears in the unclaimed forest between Camp Elite and Bursa

[I] 09 2590 BC

Curragh01 N and then NE, along the American coast.

ScoutA sees Damascus, Arabia. Moves West into forest to avoid Arab rWarrior on the road NW. Sees an Arab settler, unescorted, 1W of Mecca.

Elities Wheaties rScout -> rWarrior in 4.

This continent is almost fully explored. Another Scout will not do us much good.


Arab rWarrior joins Settler and both move 1W and out of sight.

Zulu rWarrior moves South, now NW of WorkerA.

[I] 10 2550 BC

Arabs learn about The Wheel.

Curragh01 2NE along the shores of America.
ScoutA NE into grass and N into grass; now SW of Damascus.

Camp Elite grows to 6; oyster and grass are worked; settler next turn.

Luxury rate goes to 20%.

Writing in 6, -1 gpt, 33 gold.

[IBT]

And the save is >>HERE<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm14/Elite_SG014_BC2550_01.SAV).

Not too much excitement.

We met America.
We traded Warrior Code and Ceremonial Burial to America for Masonry and all 10 American gold.

We built our second city, Elities Wheaties. The first word is supposed to rhyme with the second. :D

We lost a Scout to Barbarians.


Our World at 2500 BC
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/SGOTM14-Elite/ts02/T2550_EliteEmpire.jpg

Camp Elite is about ready to birth a settler, bound for 4SE of Camp Elite (not marked on this map).

Elitie Wheaties is building a Warrior instead of a Curragh so as not to waste the forest chop in progress by our slave.


To the East
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/SGOTM14-Elite/ts02/T2550_OttomansArabs.jpg

Ottoman and Arab lands, with a new border to meet.


To the West
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/SGOTM14-Elite/ts02/T2550_CeltsAmerica.jpg

We've met America, but haven't spotted any cities yet.

It could be that we are joined to America.


To the South
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/SGOTM14-Elite/ts02/T2550_BabylonRussia.jpg

New friends are SE of Babylon.

Got it.

Clearly we need to get another boat in the water; if we commission one after the warrior at 'EW', we should get it in three turns with the forest chop.

We can shave a turn off Writing with a re-assignment of citizens in the Capital.

Edit: I see a boat was meant to have been the first build of the new city; was the warrior a 'senior moment', CBob? Or have I missed something? Either way, to switch now will waste the chop.

Edit again: Yep, I missed something. I should have known that it would be covered in a CBob turnlog. :)

We can shave a turn off Writing with a re-assignment of citizens in the Capital.
Will that mess up the settler pump?

The way the AI is crowding us I would favor an extra city over learning a tech one turn faster. We are just now at two cities; even America has four cities by now.

We have our second city in place and Camp Elite will create another settler on this IBT. It has a home.

Where do we build after that, given that Bursa is so close to us?

Will that mess up the settler pump?

No, it will still complete next turn.

While we are on the subject of settlers, I will have two to place in my turnset, with only the next spot decided on; do we have a preference for the placement of #3?

Edit: cross post with CBob.

Answering my own question, I rather like the Royal Blue spot to the NW, simply for it's production value; White would have been nice, but Osman's bizarre placement of Bursa has scuppered that. I think Bursa should be an early candidate for ethnic cleansing.

In particular, are we going to try to prebuild Lighthouse, Glib or Zeus? I would suggest trying to pick up at least one of these; if we want a shot at the Lighthouse, we should prebuild in either the SW wheat town or the NW bg town. If we only try for Zeus, the SE wheat town (GreenB) is the strongest. For an inland prebuild we will need Masonry, but for a coastal prebuild, we already have Colossus available.
Ancient Age Wonders are not my strong suit but that doesn't stop me from offering my opinion. :D

Great Library This wonder has been so often described as a crutch that I don't even consider building it anymore. However, that is at Monarch/Emperor and not at this difficulty level. Given that we do have rather nice ocean movement and can act as Tech Brokers, what do we really gain with this wonder? And I mean that as a true, inquistive question, not as a putdown or arguement ender.

Statue of Zeus We aren't the only ones with Ivory. Arabs have 8 (!) Ivory already connected. I know that the number of Ivories connected is not critical, but it seems like the Arabs have been earmarked to have this wonder.

Great Lighthouse I've never used this wonder in a game. It gives one extra MP to our boats, which in effect is 2 extra MPs to our boats, since we are the only SEA civ in the game. If we plan on a lot of overwater expansion this is one we should try to get. That seems like a no-brainer (to me, anyway). However, we haven't decided on that, so how it fits into our overall strategy is unknown.

Chasing the Strategy Rabbit for a While
If we plan to use this continent as our AI Holding Pen/Cage (another thing we haven't discussed since we are still very early in the game), then The Great Lighthouse does become important to us. I don't think it is a make-or-break wonder but it sure would make our life easier.

Colossus Just another Wonder I'm not very familiar with. It helps with research since it adds more commerce to each tile in the city where it is built in, IIRC.

As usual, I am full of questions and have no answers. :crazyeye:

Great Library......what do we really gain with this wonder?

Pretty much the same as always - free techs; if those techs come from civ 'A' and civ 'B', our position as tech broker allows us to trade/sell to civ 'C' just the same as if we bought them.

I'd settle Kulko's blue (NW 3 BG spot) and Green (near the plains wheat). Though green seems really far away it appears to have the makings of a very solid spot.

As far as wonders go you'll have no problem talking me out of any of them. If I had a choice it would be for speedier boat and the Glight.

Nice going Bob. Lets get the curraghs out and meet all these other losers.

Settler Factory
Buce is correct, we should use the grassland Ivory as much as possible. I have adjusted the Spreadsheet for easy reference.

Great Wonders
I definitely vote for GLH. The ability to trade with everybody for luxury from the AA onwards makes this the best wonder on a Archipelago map. Its the only wonder I would consider delaying our mass curragh rush for.

Settling spots.
IMHO next spot must be dark green. It is the strongest spot in our environment and makes black, white and dark turquoise unsettlable for AIs.
The next four spots should be light blue and light green in the north and dark blue and light turquoise in the south. Should we manage all 4 of them, all other spots apart from pink/orange are save from AI settlers.

Since the 3bg spot in the north is the one farthest away from the AIs I would suggest the followingorder:
- light turquoise securing the lux and dark red.

- light green we will loose that spot to the Osmans otherwise
- dark blue settling the south
- light blue settling the north

Great Lighthouse is not a must have, but a must try IMO. Especially not letting the AI get that.

If really the Arabs get Zeus, we might try to take it from them directly afterwards. But we don't know so far whether we' ll have horses or iron.

We already agree on dark green as next city.

Agree with Kulko that light green and a city securing the lux should be next.

Orange is also a nice spot, but doesn't secure the lux directly.

I have adjusted the Spreadsheet for easy reference.

Thanks, Kulko, but I have a confession to make - I have no idea how to read a spreadsheet! :blush: Fortunately, I can run a settler factory perfectly well without one.

I am curious to learn how, though; If you can spare the time, could you run through it for me?

@team: I plan to play this in the next 24hrs, so please try to get your comments in today.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=192537&stc=1&d=1225009734
This is the dotmap we are referring to, correct?

Yes ,thats the one, I am referring to.

Naming Convention
Since this is a domination game and we are a band of warriors team, how about naming all cities after famous battles?

Naming Convention
Since this is a domination game and we are a band of warriors team, how about naming all cities after famous battles?

Sure, why not.

I wondered about a naming convention but did not ask. Since our capital is 'Camp Elite' and the team name is 'Elite', then it seemed logical that the word 'Elite' should be in our city names. Oh, well. :crazyeye:

Anyway, the best part about building a city is deciding its name!

:hmm:

This may not work very well but we could try to name coastal cities after naval battles.

I wondered about a naming convention but did not ask. Since our capital is 'Camp Elite' and the team name is 'Elite', then it seemed logical that the word 'Elite' should be in our city names. Oh, well. :crazyeye:

I see an old Smurkz at work here.


This may not work very well but we could try to name coastal cities after naval battles.
Well it will be a problem on an archipelago map sooner or later I think. But we can try. make your Choice for your city and the next player can implement it.

make your Choice for your city and the next player can implement it.

Since CBob is American, how about 'Midway'?

Spreadsheet Magic Explained
I can of course only explain my spreadsheet. PBs works very similar, but with the added twist that whenever a convention possible (like where to handle Interturn Events) we choose exactly the opposite solution.

Also "My" Spreadsheet is in Fact Offas Spreadsheet, with only minor adjustments by me.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=192848&stc=1&d=1225303627

The above image shows turns 7 to 15 from this game.

Turn and Year should be obvious. For anything up until the build column the spreadsheet shows how your empire should look when the screen reads the year displayed.

Example Turn 8:
In the last interturn our second worker was available for the first time. So its marked as just build. (yellow field Worker). The next build can be found by looking downwards whats next to be finished. So in turn 8 you would put that to wealth.

So in the first columns there are now two workers to route. Both should be free to move this turn, as the first just finished a road and the second was just build. They are both scheduled to move somewhere. Next turn they will start a specific task and work on it for multiple turns.

Next column is city size (1). And then follow 7 columns where you put down the tiles where your citizens are put to work.

In this example there is just one citizen which is working on a grassland with cow and irrigation.

Next is the build column which has been discussed at the start. The next 4 column track what will happen in the interturn and are computed automagically. The city will produce 2 shields for a accumulated total of 2 (column 1 and 2). It will also produce 4 foods for total of 16. Also culture will grow to 9.

Special cases:
There are two special cases due to the way turn order in the interturn works.

In turn 14 you are advised to set one citizen to a mined bg, but you will not find a mined bg. Thats because your worker will finish the mining in the interturn first and then production will be calculated. So when you set the citizen to the same bg the worker is working on you will get the extra shield already in the interturn.

Also in turn 9 you will see a production of 4 shields also the citizens produce only 2 shields. Thats of course the famous "Emphasize shields" combined with a new citizen. In the interturn a new citizen will be created and immediately put to work on the best shield tile. There is a special field somewhere on the spreadsheet where you can say hw good that tile is (usually 2 shields when you have a free forest). and it will b aded automagically again. Sou you can have a turn finishing in 2 turns according to the game although the sheet says it finishes next turn.

There is also a place (not on the screenshot) for effect of forest chops and granaries.

Sorry when I went into too much detail, I am sure you knew all of the game concepts already, but it made it easier for me to know what I want to say.

I use it for two purposes. Firstly to plan the early turns until the settler Factory is established, to find a build order which wasted no shields/food.

When playing a team game it also give me something to check against and reduce my angst.

That's great - thanks, Kulko, I really appreciate that.

I wondered about a naming convention but did not ask. Since our capital is 'Camp Elite' and the team name is 'Elite', then it seemed logical that the word 'Elite' should be in our city names. Oh, well. :crazyeye:

I see an old Smurkz at work here.

Guilty as charged! But trainable. :D
Since CBob is American, how about 'Midway'?
If it were my turn that would fit. But it's your turn, so why not Trafalgar? Or the celebrated duel named the Battle of Flamborough Head (since it involved both our nations)?

OK we should probably consider a prebuild fairly quickly since we know how the AI will cascade. I haven't looked at the save but have any of them started any wonders? I think I saw Oracle after Kulko's set.

The settlements are good. Should green start a worker and then a prebuild?

Green is inland though, and the wonder that gained most support is the Lighthouse. Green might be a good place to put the FP of course, and I'm always up for prebuilding that as soon as possible. But at some point we are going to start wanting a bit of military so we can shoo away the barbs, and discourage the AI. Maybe green should start a barracks?

I am fully in favor of green for baracks.

As for FP, thats what MGLS are for. We cannot transport them over water anyways.

The best way for a wonder prebuild would be dark blue with its BGs and Hills. but thats 20 turns away in the creation according to our current plan.

Maybe green should start a barracks?

I am fully in favor of green for baracks.

What, before a warrior/worker build? That doesn't seem sensible to me. We would be vulnerable to losing the shields invested to barbs for twenty turns or so, and we are short of workers; I don't see that we need a Rax that urgently that we would want to take that risk.

Furthermore, if a forest chop is the first worker turn, we would have a Rax just a few turns later than if we built it first, plus we would have a warrior and a worker.

Pre-turn:

mm capital; Writing now in 5.

Rename EW to'Flamborough Head'

Enter:

IBT: Zulu warrior continues to track our borders.

2510BC:

EC completes settler; settler begins journey to Green Dot. Hmm, We are vulnerable to a demand for our gold, and if the Zulu warrior attacks now, we lose both settler and worker. I spend some time considering the merits of moving the warrior from EC to cover them; the cost would be one or two turns of growth at FH because it would temporarily require a scientist to still get Writing in 4, as I'd have to raise the lux slider to 10% to compensate for losing the MP. Of course, losing a settler would slow growth a lot more.

I decide to move the warrior; if that's a bad decision, I apologize.

Worker completes irrigation at FH; begins road.

IBT:

Zulu warrior moves away.

2470BC:

EC grows, lux to 20%; Writing in 3 turns.worker at EC completes mine; begins road.

IBT: nothing.

2430:

Settler arrives safely at Green Dot.

IBT:

Abe and Osman grumble about trespassers.
Babylon has IW. We have nothing to offer.

2390BC:

Bosworth Field (http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/Documents/the_battle_of_bosworth.htm) is founded. I set the build to warrior, for reasons I've already discussed, and building a Rax seemed more of a suggestion than a strong consensus.

Worker at FH completes road; begins to road to the Incense.

I suddenly realize that another consequence of me moving the MP to cover the settler was that it slowed the warrior build in FH; if I don't change it to a Curragh, we will lose the shields from the chop. We will still lose 4 by switching - sorry guys.

IBT:

Nothing.

2350BC:

We learn Writing; begin CoL at 90% (22) I don't trade it as we are going for the slingshot, but as a matter of interest, we could get all outstanding techs and some gold with it.

Settler completes in EC; begins journey with warrior as escort. Again, I'm reluctant to risk losing an unescorted settler to barbs.

Curragh completes in FH; begins journey South. FH commissions another. Slave begins irrigating plains tile.

IBT:

Nothing.

2310BC:

Worker finishes road at EC; moves to adjacent BG.

IBT:

Nothing.

2170BC:

Worker completes Incense road just in time for our settler to take advantage of it; and good job too - there is a Russian settler pair close. If they settle on spot, we lose our place. I can, however, still settle in such a way as to get the Incense.

Worker at BF begins mine.

IBT:

Hmm, the Russian pair neither settle or move; instead they wait for a warrior which has joined them.

2130BC:

Move settler/ warrior to proposed site - we still get lucky.

Incense road worker begins road.

IBT:

Russian settler combo move towards Incense - too late, Ivan!

2190BC:

CE completes settler; I realize we haven't discussed this far, so pause to consult the dotmap and the thread for some clues what to do. Decide to send it to the NW coastal spot. There is a barb camp near the spot, but there is also an Ottoman spear/warrior combo (odd thing, that appears to be the standard AI response to barbs in this game - warrior/spear, and sometimes settler)

BF completes warrior; begins worker.

'Trafalgar' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Trafalgar) (as per CBob's suggestion) is founded on the Insence; begins curragh for now at least, subject to discussion.

IBT:

Ivan's people retreat from Trafalgar.

2150BC:

And that's my lot.

We have CoL due in 15; FH will produce a Curragh next turn - we might want to produce a warrior there next to act as MP in the capital, although we will have a third lux on line in two turns.

We have a settler 2 turns away from settling the NW spot. The settler factory is working nicely, so we should expand quite quickly now. That said, the AI is encroaching already, so we may be expanding at the point of a sword before too long.

Our Scout has finished scouting, and is returning home. Our two Curraghs are heading clockwise and counter clockwise around our island.


Here (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm14/Elite_SG014_BC2150_01.SAV) is the save.

Our Empire.

Great Going guys! Looks like we might get 3/4 of our perimeter towns, giving us room for 10 cities overall.

Roster
Bucephalos - just played
socralynnek - Up
Whomp - on Deck
Rodent
Paperbeetle
Kulko
CommandoBob

Trading:
There are two deals available which I believe we should take.
America is giving IW fo Alpha
Celtica is giving Wheel for Alpha
Otto might give Myst for both afterwards.

I think we should not trade with Otto but take the other two deals.

State of he Empire
Do we want to churn out Curraghs in both Coastal towns?

DotMapping
The next turnset will churn out two new settlers. One should go to dark blue as planned, unless Russia intervenes.

For the second I see 3 Possibilities:
A) light green as planned to stop the Ottos
B) Orange to try and press forward against the AIs
C) Build up another inner Ring town like black or white.

Prefer B) but I am open to all three possibilities.

Exploration
Next curragh should definitely search that shallow water crossing next to Philadelphia.

State of he Empire
Do we want to churn out Curraghs in both Coastal towns?

We have two Curraghs now and one completes this IBT.

I can't see a need for more than 5 or 6 boats out exploring. Any more and they just bump into each other.

So how about a Curragh each in the coastal towns and then build something else?

Questions for the next turnset (probably I can find tomorrow or the day after)

-Where do we settle next towns?
-Do we start building units somewhere? (Probably Bosworth)
-Would we trade Writing if someone else has it? (I guess no.)
-Should we trade Alphabet? I guess, yes.
-How many curraghs? (I guess, that decision might belong to the turnset after)
-When to start prebuild for GLH?

By the way, Kulko, why shouldn't we be able to transport leaders? I guess, you confused it with not being able to transport armies loaded with 2 or more units.
Or is that what you meant?

My 2 cents:

I think we prebuild GLH in the new town in the north as soon as possible. (Warrior - Worker - GLH)

Bosworth will be building units and Flameborough should join it after the Curragh. Further Curraghs can be build in Trafalgar.

As before we trade ALpha but not Writing. When we can get IW + TW for ALpha like it seems, I do not see any need to trade before the successful Slingshot anyway.

You are right, I meant armies of course when I talked about the difficulty of transporting. Since hi limits there usability, I would use the second leader to build a FP in a nice ex AI capital location.

Seems OK with me.

IMPORTANT NOTE

Please can you stop playing, and let me know when I can edit your save to fix the Carrack movement? I'll try to give you a fast turn-round and let you know when you can continue.

We are between turns right now, so if you edit the current save we can just download it again.

I have edited the latest team files to give the Carrack the correct movement points. Please make sure you download your new save from the Progress and Results page before you continue ... unless you prefer slow Carracks :p.

Haven't downloaded the file so far, so it's alright.

I'll start my turset later today.

I apologize I haven't been making too comments, but things seem to be going fairly well so far. Excellent turnsets so far and nice write-ups, CommandoBob and Bucephalus.:)

-I suggest we settle the black dot from the dotmap, soon, to start consolidating the expansion. The white dot on the dotmap would also be a good point to settle as the Ottos will likely be our first target. Even though close to Bursa, it makes an attack easy and that town may auto-raze.
-I suggest holding off on trading writing for a while as we'll likely get everything later, anyway.
-TGLHouse is likely our most useful wonder, but TGL would be a good backup if we lose the race to it. We could probably do fine without a wonder, though, as we will soon need to expand on our neighbors territory. Libraries can help us get the tech we need for the middle ages and help keep flips to a minimum.
-I agree with CommandoBob we don't need too many more boats to keep our exploration going. I think we should not hesitate to send our scouts through an ai's territory as they will not usually auto-boot scouts anyway and it is the fastest way to learn the area of our continent.
-Also, I'm still not convinced we'll need to waste time on building an area to keep the ai's in as they will build these for us anyway. It's also dangerous to group them together as they could still declare war on each other and kill another ai far too easily.
-Flamborough head would be a good town for a granary as a worker pump, or we could just build a few workers there as well.

One more note, please keep me listed in the roster, though I don't mind reminding.:)

Roster

Bucephalos - just played
socralynnek - Up
Whomp - on Deck
Rodent
Paperbeetle
PrinceMyshkin
Kulko
CommandoBob

Sorry copied the wrong roster.

2150 BC (0) - Sell Alpha to America for IW.
Celts would have wanted Alpha+15g for The Wheel. So I sell them IW for their 9g + The Wheel.
There are a few sources of iron close. We'll surely get one on the coastal hills between Flamborough and Trafalgar.
1 East of that are horses.

horses are also between Bosworth and Bursa and iron slightly east of that.
On the bad side: We could probably only stop the Ottos from getting both if we declare quite early.

We have the following deal possibilities atm:
-Sell The Wheel+5g to Ottomans for Mysticism.(Or IW for Myst)
-Sell IW to Russia for either Myst+35g or 133g(all they have)
-Sell IW to Arabia for Myst + 3g.

Only one who has Horseback Riding are the Zulus, but they are only lacking Writing which we don't want to sell.

I'll stop here for three reasons:
-It's quite late (wanted to play earlier today but at that time CFC was unreachable)
-We might want to reconsider next city spots because of resources.
-We should decide which trades we make (I vote for not selling IW.

BTW, should I switch Bosworth to a Barracks now or let the worker finish?

Can Continue in about 9 hours or so.

Picture as attachment. I hope you can see the ron and horses.

I'd rather fight the Ottos with horseman than swords. They don't seem to understand how to use horses too well. Cannon fodder. All the other trades sound good.

I'll second Whomp on this. We can use Horses better than the AI.

Iron and Horse Locations
Looking at the screenshot, we have a Horse between Flamborough Head and Trafalgar that we can connect rather quickly. It is off our road network by one tile. However, it is also outside our borders, which means a colony or city or build a library in Flamborough Head.

So we have one source of Horses fairly available.

We also have two sources of Iron. One is also between Flamborough Head and Trafalgar, and, like the Horses, outside our borders. The second source is further away, 1E-3SE of Trafalgar, on a hill, but with some grassland and flood plains (I think) close by. It is 1S-1SW of the Orange Dot on our last dotmap.

Iron and Horse Acquisition
I think we could claim the Iron by Orange with a new city. Russia is the closest civ but we should be able to beat them to the Iron. We have a worker trying to connect Trafalgar right now; it would be two more flat land tiles to connect to this city.

Since we need the Horses sooner rather than later, I suggest we invest a Worker into a Horse Colony. Once we build a library in Flamborough Head (and we need Literature to do that, which we don't have), both the Horse and Iron will be inside our borders and the Colony is gone and so is the Worker. But that is down the road.

So, I think that Bosworth Field should complete the Worker and then start on the Barracks. And I would earmark this worker for the Horses. It looks like it would take 4 turns for the Worker to reach the Horses.

There was a city planed between Flameborough Head and Traf, so we just need to build this when we need the horses.

But since that won't be the case before Bosworth has finished his Baracks I would not change our initial order.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=193172&stc=1&d=1225616781

We can prepare the road to the horses in advance and then will have them connected in 13 turns. Baracks in Bosworth need aqt least 10 more turns, even with a chop, so I see no need to hurry.

I strongly oppose using a worker for a colony , because this is our scarcest ressource. until we got the factory up.

As for the second Iron, the russian has its settler right next to it (the one we beat to Trafalgar) and I believe the point will be moot soon. Anyway when we decide to attack it will be easy to cut at the first chance.

As for trading, I would trade IW to Arabia and Russia for Myst and all the russian gold. The gold can then be used to upgrade the chariots once we aquire HBR.

Continued.

Thanks for your input, guys!

So, I sell The Wheel+5g to ottos for Myst. As everone else had it, they would have gotten it soon anyway. Maybe we can sell IW to Arabia later on for something else.
Sell IW to Catherine for 133g.

IBT: The russian combo moves to the iron. I guess, they might even found there.
Flameborough Curragh -> Granary (for workers as Prince suggested.)

2110 BC (1) - Arabia has Polytheism. But they wouldn't even sell it for Writing+IW+all our gold...

2070 BC (2) - Nothing special.

IBT: Settler->Settler.
Paris finished The Colossus.

2030 BC (3) - Found Teutoburger Wald up in the North. (Probably the most famous battleground in Germany, although still historians don't know where it is.
The Romans were beaten there by "Barbarians".
Start with a Warrior there, but next one can change it.
We meet the Japanese. They are on the big island south of Babylon. They are even lacking Alphabet and Pottery.
BTW, babylonians have Writing.
Yaroslavl was founded 1E of Iron. Set science to 100%.

IBT: Bosworth Worker->Barracks.

1990 BC (4) - A barbarian galley threates our Curragh in the North.
4 Civs have Maths, 3 HR, 3 Poly. But they all are only lacking Writing (except for Babylon who are still the only ones who have it, so I don't sell it)
Sell Pottery to Japan for 48g. Lux to 10%.

IBT: Curragh survives at 2/3 hp.

1950 BC (5) - Meet Persia SE of Japan. They have HR and they also already have Writing.

1910 BC(6) - Incense connected. Still need 20% lux.
Meet Incas on an island east of Ottos. They are lacking Alpha+TW+Myst.

IBT: Camp Elite Settler->Settler.

1870 BC (7) - Found Wolf 359 which pushes Horses into our territory. Start again with a Warrior, but next one can change it.
Meet Korea E of Babylon. Sell them Pottery for 70g. They are lacking Wiritng and Myst.
Science to 100%. Writing now known by 4 civs.
BTW, no one we know has more cities than we have. Only Inca have 6 as well.

1830 BC (8) - Meet France (East of Arabia). Great chance. They have Maths but are lacking WC,IW,Wri,Myst.
Sell them WC+Myst for Math+3g. Sell Maths to Persia for HR. Sadly those who know Poly all already know Maths and HR.

1790 BC(9) - Found Maxia. Again someone might change the Warrior.

1750 BC (10) - Nothing.

great going

OK I've got the save.

A few things to discuss before I play today.
The Kassite barbs have a horse so I'm assuming it will hit Teutoberger any moment. I plan to bring the warrior in Bosworth Field back to Camp Elite to bring down our lux tax.
We could use more workers so I'll try to improve that situation.

We're 2 turns till CoL and I'd like to trade out writing once I'm a few turns into philo. Any objections?

It appears we've met about half the civs and there's two big blacks spaces we need to explore. NE of the Koreans and west of them. With the new curragh I will try and explore the west.

How about dotmap? We're running out of space. Two settlers and prebuild or three settlers with prebuild? I presume we want to revolt to republic right away.

Should we plant on top of the iron for red dot. Saves a lot of worker turns but means we can't connect/disconnect for a mass warrior upgrade...


http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/2906/dotmap3sj5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Writing is already known on our landmass, so I'd say trade it whenever you see an advantage in doing so.

I think settling on the red dot would be an error; it's true that it would save worker turns but it would make the city a less productive one with fewer land tiles to work. Also, unless we get some more gold in our trading rounds, we won't be mass upgrading many warriors.

OK well we know that worst case that iron spot is ours with border expansion. What we could do is send the next settler to lime green so we have a hill iron spot that still needs to be hooked up.

I'd vote for not on top of western iron.

On top of iron east of Bosworth is fine.

Settling the red dot, would be ok, but I agree that we probably want a city between Camp Elite and Iznik.

OK I'll hit this in three hours after the Bears smack the Lions around.

I wouldn't settle on any of the irons, as we probably want to play connect reconnect when Knights are around.

Red is fine, Orange should be one more space out to have fresh water.

Camp should continue at least until republic. We still have lots of citys to settle. Wonder should be build in Teuteburg

"Orange" on the fresh water will encroach on Iznik so that seems risky. Landing on "lime green" and having it connected won't stop us from disconnecting the iron for knight upgrades. I'm inclined to skip "red" altogether.

Pre-turn: Switch Wolf 359 from warrior to worker. Move warrior out of Bosworth Field to Elite Camp.

IT Barb horse ransacks Teutoburger for 40g. Curragh sinks in treacherous waters.

1. 1725
Arabs and Ottos are missing writing and have poly. They want a lot of our bank so I'll wait another turn to see where everyone is at who has writing. Send settler to "orange" dot so we can get another worker started asap.

IT CoL comes in
2. 1700
Elite Camp settler -- settler
Antietam established on the orange dot. We're up CoL on everyone. The Arabs traded all their gold to Babylon it appears for writing. That leaves the Ottos down writing and up poly. They want 155g and writing for it. I think we'll wait for the price to come down a bit. Meet the 41g, spice and horse people Iroquois and they're down wines, ivory and incense along with writing, math, HBR and myst. No deals.

IT
3. 1675
Trafalgar curragh--worker
Teutoburger warrior -- worker
Nothing else since no trades are enticing. Philo drops to 5 from 7 and my heart drops. Fortunately, it's from more research...phew.

IT We get a Arab warrior inside our borders.
4. 1650
Move lux to 10% and debate on what to do with the Arab warrior. If we cover Antietam we'll have to move lux to 20% and lose a turn on philo. There's a good possibility he's headed for the barb camp so decide to open a embassy to improve relations.
We go from annoyed to cautious.

http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/1325/arabs1ob9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

IT Arab warrior moves on towards the barb.
5. 1625
Elite Camp settler -- settler
Maxia warrior -- worker
Settler heads out towards the eastern iron. Spot what a border that could be the Mongols.

IT Horses hooked up.
6. 1600
Antietam warrior-- worker
Bursa gets a border expansion. That iron is going to have pressure. Say hello to the 7 wool, iron Mongols who are down CoL and up Poly.

IT
7. 1575
Flamborough granary --worker
Bosworth Field rax -- horse
Wolf 359 worker -- worker (can be changed)
Meet 57g, 2 spice iron poly Germans who are down CoL.

IT Philo comes in and set to republic and...
http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/2150/republicqy9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
8. 1550
Teutoburger -- palace
Mongols have map making. OK let's see what we can do here.
Get map making and 4g for CoL and Philo from the Mongols.
Trade philo and CoL to the Germans for 59g and poly.
Take the Celts bank of 58g for poly.
Take Incans (they have 14 furs!!) bank of 44g for poly.
Take Babs bank of 55g for philo.
Take Zulus bank of 53g for philo.

Before I continue on I want to make sure we're all on board to go into anarchy next turn (when our settler finishes). Everyone ok with that?

Before I continue on I want to make sure we're all on board to go into anarchy next turn (when our settler finishes). Everyone ok with that?
Sounds good to me.

OK I'm going to finish the set since I can't really make a case for waiting. We have limited space for the settler but there's a small space towards Wolf 359 and Bosworth Field.

The finish from 1550...

Take Russia's bank of 38g for philo. We've wiped out most of the banks in the world now.
Set up an embassy with the Mongols for 57g to see if we can get some map data.
http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/3730/mongols1ky3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Then do the same with the Germans for 56g.
http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/5108/germansld7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/germansld7.jpg/1/w800.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img509/germansld7.jpg/1/)
IT
9. 1525
Trade writing for Ottos bank of 66g. Find another border by crossing the Korean strait but no contact yet.
Antietam and Flamborough will finish workers after anarchy so feel free to change those or any of my worker builds.
We get 6 turns of anarchy.

IT
10. 1500
Establish Bunker Hill on the eastern iron.
Meet spice, iron 4g India and they're not so smart. Down wheel, writing, math and poly. Turn a scientist on for Flamborough and taxman in Camp Elite since they're both angry.
Curragh spies a pink border south of the Indians.

SUMMARY
We have five turns of anarchy. Research is set for lit since I'd presume we'll want libraries next. There's a settler SE that's prepared to land off the lake. We have over 400g so we should have some for cash rushing and if needed more embassies.

Pretty tame set but I'm sure you all will make things interesting over the next 10 or 50 turns. :D

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm14/Elite_SG014_BC1500_01.SAV)

Presumably, I am up.

Can you just give me a list of 'to-do' Things?

I think that one thing that requires discussion is how we are to react to demands; with our gold piling up, and our recent tech gains, we are overdue for one.

Obviously, if it comes from someone on another landmass we may as well take the WH, but a neighbour is a different story, IMO. Until we can build up the military to at least a level where we could fight a defensive war, it seems prudent that we should cave.

We should also note that the Arabs are well on the way to having the SoZ.

Roster

Whomp - just played
Rodent - Up
Paperbeetle - On deck
PrinceMyshkin
Kulko
CommandoBob
Bucephalos
socralynnek

Main orders, Rodent:
- Watch trading opportunities each and every turn. We need to keep playing tech broker. (I hope you use a tool like CIv Assist II or MapStat
- Keep the Settler pump running. Can someone do a spreadsheet for Republic?
- Start building some units.

Great going! Good to see we managed the slingshot! Might give us an edge over those who didn't try!

I agree with Buce. We need to cave into all demands from the Ottos, Arabs, Russians and Zulus. I think they're the only ones to worry about.

You will have 5 turns of anarchy and honestly the worker and settler pumps will need to be reconstructed since we're still growing in those cities but they're off on their growth every 2 turns. They can be constructed from 5 to 7 if the settler and workers come out on growth to 7. Just don't let them finish at 7 pop.

Question is we'll need an escorts from here since all the remaining space is dicey as far as overlap with others on our continent. I'd be more inclined to see if we can knock out a couple workers from the capital and start rax in some of the other cities that have potential. Keep Bosworth Field as a unit farm since the city has rax now.

Make sure to meet the civ in pink where I left off that curragh. Try to keep encircling the landmasses but look for opportunities to cross seas to get to coastals. With the curraghs you can cross two sea tiles and land inside a coastal tile (differential movement).

That's off the top of my head.

Any progress, Rodent?

Not even started.

This is a Competition, and I want some exclusive time for it. I am Open to a swap of course

I can pick it up at the weekend if you haven't had a chance to play by then. I've just upgraded to a new machine, so I'm still in the process of making sure that all the bits and pieces work properly under Vista. And I'll have to get caught up on the thread to find out where we are at.
Over on the graphs, it looks like Klarius has gone on a library-building spree, so I guess they are also planning a cavalry strategy. As for the slingshots, it looks like Ivan won that race; they had 5 turns of anarchy, all during their 2150-1750bc turnset. Klarius started their anarchy 3 turns earlier than us, although their subsequent culture explosion makes it hard to be sure how long it lasted. Spooks haven't yet reached the slingshot.

Got it.

So 5 turns of anarchy, and then some library prebuilding. I can see three interesting spots for towns; the southern lake (we have a settler nearby), the northern lake (squeezed in near the Ottoman town), and the mouth of the southern river. So one more settler from each of granary towns, and then they can do libraries too?
And as our library building starts to complete, I assume we switch to war mode, looking to capture Zeus from the Arabs? Anyway, we can discuss that after my turnset. Game on.

I was going to bump this today.
Agreed on war mode. Grabbing SoZ is big.

It might be an idea to stagger the library builds a bit - we're awfully shy of military.

Finished! Woohoo, I can have a beer now :D
I have uploaded at 1275bc (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm14/Elite_SG014_BC1275_01.SAV). I stopped a turn early because we have just reached Literature, and have the option of researching Currency, Construction or Monarchy. I would normally go for Currency, as the AI tends to lean towards Construction. Either tech will finish during the next turnset, so we should also decide what to go for afterwards.

Other stuff that happened:

1475bc
Meet Rome - they are backwards, so I sell Burial.
Meet China - they are the largest AI. I sell Writing.

1450bc
Found Troy on the southeast edge of our empire. The FP unlocks. Should we start building it already?

1450it
Sumeria gets Pyramids. The Celts get Oracle.

1425bc
Sell Philosophy to the Ottomans and Arabs.

1425it
Babylon gets Zeus; Arabia would have been easier, but at least it is still on our continent. Trouble is, they will have built many ACs before we even get the chance to move against them. Coupled with DEF2 archers and the need to get past Russia, do we still want to make Zeus our first target?

1400bc
Meet Egypt - they are very backwards, so sell Alphabet.
Meet Greece - sell Writing.

1400it
The Mongols complete Mausoleum.

1375bc
Republic inaugurated. Run 90% science.

1350it
Persia completes Lighthouse.

1300it
Discover Literature.

There are 3 notable tech trades available; China has plenty of cash, but they have a trade partner that we haven't met yet. I have been holding off on selling more techs to Mao until we get to meet the missing civ. America and the Celts are both slowly accumulating cash at about +3gpt, and we can sell them Writing amongst other things. But I have been checking prices each turn and they will both still pay their whole treasury for it, so I guess we can afford to wait while those coffers fill up.

The verbose version of the turnlog...

1500 bc

Switch taxmen to scientists.
Mobilize the axe from Flamborough; he's doing no good back there now, but could be sitting in a border town instead.

1500 > 1475

Arabian axe heads towards barb camp in the north.
3 AI settler combos shuffle around, vaguely frustrated at the lack of settlable locations (why aren't they headed towards that corridor of land east of Intombe and Hlobane? They AI moves in mysterious ways).
Osman earns 3 more gold. This is interesting because we could sell him Philosophy.

Maxia grows 1>2.

1475 bc

Curragh near Rome heads north. Actually, did we only just meet Rome on this interturn? It lies to the west of Japan. Julius has no resources, 5 towns, and almost no techs. I guess he hasn't ever met a foreigner before. Give him Burial for his 20g treasury.
Curragh between Germany and Mongolia heads east.
Curragh near India heads east; the pink border is China. Mao has iron (1 spare) and wool (0 spare) and 8 cities, which makes him the largest AI we have met so far. Give him Writing for his treasury of 93g. He is also down Polytheism.
ScoutA moves to a mountain next to Moscow, to clear up some fog. A babylonian settler combo is walking through Russia.
WorkerB N to improve a river tile.
Axe from Flamborough arrives in Bosworth.
Axe from Camp Elite heads north to back up the Arabian in his half-hearted assault on that barb camp.
Worker near Bosworth SE,S to improve a river tile.
Settler SE to settle on the river (in preference to the lake because the twon gets 1 extra commerce, and it will get us a couple of tiles extra terrirtory).

1475 > 1450

Agree to vacate Chinese territory. Ditto Germany.
AI settler combos continue on their merry way.
Mao turns up 77g! He must have sold Philosophy on to somebody. I won't sell him anything else until I found out who.

Antietam grows 1>2.

1450 bc

Curragh near Rome heads west.
Curragh near Germany continues its voyage southeast, failing to vacatae German waters. There are bright green borders to the east.
Curragh near China decides to sail south around China rather than east between India and China, on the principle that it has a better chance at using the odd sea tile for extra speed if it doesn't head down a narrow channel.
Scout A continues sweeping up fog in Russia.
WorkerB roads next to Flamborough.
Worker near Bosworth roads.

Settler founds Troy; start worker. The FP is now unlocked.
Axe at Bosworth moves to Troy.
Axe from Camp Elite NE towards the barbs. Axe from Teutoburger N to assist the Arabian.

1450 > 1425

The Arabian axe is succesful in its attack on the barbs, and promotes to vet.

The Sumerians complete Pyramids in Ur. Oracle cascades to the Celts in Entremont.

Teutoburger grows 1>2. It won't riot next turn because the road will finsh in time.

1425 bc

Curragh near Rome continues westwards, approaching Egyptian-yellow borders.
Curragh near Germany heads east towards the Greek-green borders, but doesn't reach them yet.
Curragh near China continues southwards.
ScoutA hits another Russian fog patch.
WorkerA W to improve one of Teutoburger's bgs.
Axe fortifies in Troy.
Axe returns to Teutoburger.
Axe from Camp Elite turns south again.

Give Osman Philosophy for 37g. Give Abu Philosophy for 33g.

1425 > 1400

Agree to vacate Roman territory.
Babylon completes Zeus. That's a bit annoying as it is rather further than Mecca, and obstructed by Russia.

Camp Elite grows 5>6.

1400 bc

Curragh near Rome crosses sea westwards, to reach Egyptian coast. Cleo has iron (0 spare), 5 towns, and is behind on tech. Give her Alphabet for 41g.
Curragh near Germany sails northeast to meet the Greeks. Alex has spices (1 spare) and wool (2 spare) and has 5 towns. Give Alex Writing for his treasury of 79g.
Curragh near China sails south.
ScoutA heads north back towards Portugal.
Slave01 S to link Wolf by road.
WorkerA roads. The other worker roading to Teutoburger N to improve a bg.
Axe from Camp Elite heads to Antietam to garrison our border.
Axe in Teutoburger fortifies.

1400 > 1375

Agree to vacate Greek territory. Ditto Egypt.
The Mongols complete Mausoleum in Almarikh.

Republic inaugurated.

1375 bc

Curragh near Egypt heads northwest.
Curragh near Greece heads northeast.
Curragh near China heads south.
Slave01 roads.
Worker between Wolf and Maxia roads.
Worker near Teutoburger roads.
Axe fortifies in Antietam.

Switch Camp Elite to worker as our tiles are underdeveloped, and it works neatly with the micro of Flamborough.
Set sliders to 90% science, 10% lux; Literature in 4 turns.

1375 > 1350

Camp Elite grows 6>7 and builds worker; start settler.
Antietam builds worker; start worker.
Flamborough grows 5>6.

1350 bc

Curragh near Egypt continues west. An Egyptian town has been razed, probably by a volcano.
Curragh near Greece sails on northeast.
Curragh near China sails south, reaching the southern tip of that continent.
ScoutA approaches Intombe to suck up another spot of fog.
Worker at Antietam S to improve a river tile.
Worker at Camp Elite SE, mines ivory.

1350 > 1325

Trafalgar builds worker; start library prebuild.
Maxia builds worker; start library prebuild.
Bosworth grows 3>4. Wolf grows 1>2.

Persia completes Lighthouse in Pasargadae.

1325 bc

Curragh near Egypt sails on west, approaching Germany.
Curragh near Greece sails north.
Curragh near China sails east.
ScoutA heads around Intombe, aiming to go clear up the fog in the southeast of our continent.
Worker at Trafalgar S.
Worker at Maxia and WorkerB irrigate next to Flamborough head.
Worker at Antietam roads.
Worker at Troy irrigates.

1325 > 1300

Agree to vacate Zulu territory.

Flamborough grows 6>7 and builds settler; start library prebuild.

1300 bc

Curragh near Egypt sails southeast, aiming to cross to the German continent.
Curragh near Greece sails north.
Curragh near China sails northeast.
ScoutA heads east.
Workers near Teutoburgh mine a bg.
Worker near Trafalgar roads.
Worker near Maxia heads north to improve a hill.

Short rush settler in Camp Elite for 20g.
Turn science down to 60%.

1300 > 1275

A Russian spear/axe combo enters our territory from the northeast - it looks like they are just heading home.

Discover Literature; research Currency.

Camp Elite grows 6>7 and builds settler; start library.
Bosworth builds horse; start horse.
Antietam grows 1>2.
Troy grows 1>2.

1275 bc

Curragh near Egypt crosses west to Germany.
Curragh near Greece sails north into neutral waters.
Curragh near China continues northeast.
ScoutA continues east.
WorkerB W to improve river tile.
The other worker at Flamborough S,E to unimproved plains.
Worker near Maxia roads.
Settler at Flamborough heads south towards Trafalgar.
Settler at Camp Elite heads north.
Horse fortifies in Bosworth.
Settler heads south towards the site south of Trafalgar.

Switch Antietam to library.
Crank science back to 90%; we will get Currency in 7 turns. Construction would take an extra 2 turns.

Well done Paperbeetle.

A few thoughts on SoZ and research.

I'd be inclined to get Babylon involved in a MA against the Zulus and so they gas themselves a bit. That way once we've worked our way towards them we can go right for the jugular. On research I fully agree that currency should be the next tech for the reason you mention regarding AI path. Markets are nice too. Should we try and force some of the research AI's along the construction path? I think we should to get the trades rolling so we can hopefully avoid it.

From there I think we should plan on gifting up the scientifics once we've researched either mono or feud. Feud is more valuable to the AI so I lean that way but mono is less researched.

Give him Writing for his treasury of 93g.


Mao turns up 77g! He must have sold Philosophy on to somebody. I won't sell him anything else until I found out who.

So which was it?

Give him Writing for his treasury of 93g.


Mao turns up 77g! He must have sold Philosophy on to somebody. I won't sell him anything else until I found out who.

So which was it?

Good question. It was Writing that I sold. Next turn, I saw the cash and considered whether to sell Philosophy as well, but decided not to on the grounds that I would rather sell to both Mao and his friend at the same time.

How about a roster check?

PrinceMyshkin--Up
Kulko--on deck
CommandoBob
Bucephalus
socralynnek
Whomp -
Rodent - MIA
Paperbeetle - just played

I won't be able to get to this game for a couple of days as I need some more rest to give my full attention to this game. I think it likely one of the 14 civs with mathematics will get construction, soon, so I agree with going for currency now. Could the team please post suggestions and I'll be able to have it done by thursday?

shouldn't Teutoburg prebuild a wonder?

If so it shouldn't be set to library and it desperately needs a second worker diverted there until the BGs and the Hill are mined for maximum shield output.

What wonder would we consider? The Great Lighthouse is finished after the cascade.

Oh Sorry, I did miss that. We will have to conquer it then.

I apologize to the team, but I'm going to need an indefinite skip. It wouldn't be fair for me to play for the team now as my mind is not focused on this game now.

Goal
Domination without Elimination

Long Term Strategy
Build a solid base by conquering most of the Alpha Continent.
Reach Astro/Mil Trad as fast as possible.

Short term strategy
Build up libs for a solid search base.
Start on the Army Buildup (Baracks/Horse) for later upgrade to Knights.
find the missing Civs.
Don't mess it up.

I will play tonite or tomorrow.

Now know why PB stopped one turn early :-(

In the first Interturn Antietam converted to Islam and joins the Ottomans.

Nothing to be done about it, but I rushed a ew of the Libs to get a better culture score fast.

We have researched Currency in 6 and are now facing a decision :

A) Stop research until somebody es got Construction and save money for further rushes.
B) Research it Ourselves in about 8 turns.

Turnlog:

State of the Empire:

10 Cities
27 Citizens

Civil Force:
9 Workers
2 Settlers

Armed Forces:
5 warriors
1 Horse
3 Curraghs

Infra:
1 Barack
0 Libs

I would say we have too few of everything apart from Cities.

Preturn:

MM CampElite for shields
Rush Lib in Flameborough to restore worker pump.

IBT:
ANTIETAM converts to the islam and joins Osman. *arrghl*

Turn1:

Flame Lib → Worker
I play it safe and rush another Lib in Bosworth. Bunker Hill will have to take care of itself.

Turn2:
Bosworth Lib → Horseman
Wolf Worker → Baracks

Found Lepanto at the Ottoman border and start it on alibrary immediately.

Sell Writing to Celts for 45gp

Turn3:

Flame Worker → Worker

Turn 4:

Meet Maya They are down CoL,Phi,MM and Lit

Turn 5
Flame Worker → Worker

Turn 6:
We research Currency

Bad news on Antietam. Drat.

On Research
What is our current cash flow?

If we are short on military but have a lot of cash, we'll be bullied by the AI for that cash. Our cash is our cash, not theirs. Let's don't give them a reason to bully us.

If we plan to cash rush each turn, spending our tax money on improving our military, I'm all for it.

Otherwise, I think we should learn Construction on our own. Or maybe shut down research for a turn or so to get our military stronger and then start researching again.

70 gpt. @ 0 Science. We should be able to rush a Horse every 2-3 turns this way.

Or we save 4 turns and rush barack or lib.

Actually, I was secretly hoping that Bunker Hill would flip, as I didn't like the town-on-iron placement. Apparently the RNG gods were a bit sloppy in answering my prayers. :suicide:
So now we have an AI town at just RCP3 from our capital. Good grief. Anyway, at least this makes our next move pretty clear; for the sake of our honour, we need to get together a pack of horses and take that town back. Let's also have Bursa and Iznik while we're at it. In its current state, Antietam will autoraze; if we do have to refound it, I suggest going 1 tile north to sit on the fresh water.
How far is Teutoburg along with that library? If it isn't a waste of shields, we could skip the library there and go straight to barracks. If the scout is still running around somewhere, it might be interesting to send him through the Ottoman Empire to see what kind of units they have hanging around.

Yeah, let's get the party started soon!

Okay, we will have a war soon and we need to start preparing for it now.

However, that isn't the issue.

We have researched Currency in 6 and are now facing a decision :

A) Stop research until somebody es got Construction and save money for further rushes.
B) Research it Ourselves in about 8 turns.

Ok Guys we are in the middle ages and it took 5 more turns. I just traded Russia CoL+ Cur for Con + 8 gp. Also this turn Mongolia has researched Mon.

On further god news, we have 5 Libs, 3 Rax and our first 4 horses

We also meet Maya and Sumer, missing only 2 more tribes.


Turn 7:

Flame Worker-> Worker
Bos Horse

Met Sumeria they are down Philo, CoL, MM, Lit, and HBR

Sell HBR for 261 gp
Sell Philo to Chin for 111 gp.
I rush Rax in Try and Lib in Maxia
Nothing really left so I nd t turn with 200 gp

Turn 8:

Troy Rax -> Horse
Maxia Lib -> Rax

Rush Horse in Bosworth

Turn 9:

Bos Horse --> Horse
Teuto Rax --> Horse
Rush Horse in Troy

Turn 10:
Troy Horse --> Horse

Get Con for Cur and CoL from Russia.

Reposted and improved two posts later.

Russia drew engineering ad is willing to give it for Lit + Cur.

How is this possible? You cannot have Engineering yet lack Currency. :confused:

Ups doublepost. This one is more thought through and corrects the mistake.

Tech
Mongolia has Monarchy for sale and is wiling to sell for Con, Cur and 100 gp.

Russia has drawn Engineering and its worth Lit + Rep. this should be a relatively fair price s he actually wanted all our money and 1 gpt too.

There are 6 other Sci civs

I suggest:
Buy Monarchy from Mongolia
Gift Scienties up
Buy all available techs for Lit, Rep and Mon
Sell Rep to Mongolia for the 100 gp

We might think aboutnot gifting Osman, unless we are still missing a first tier tech.

Worker Factory
Flame should continue running for workers an bring all other cities up to size. It needs to be reset after production.

Horse Buying
If we continue to buy horsies, this was my strategy:

Bos runs at 10 spt and gets no hurry.
The same for Camp after the Rax is finished. (we might want to partrush that when we get enough money in the trading round.)

Teuto runs at 5 spt.
Turn 1: add 5 s
Turn 2: Partrush Bowman (60 GP),add 5 s
Turn 3: add 5 s and finish

Troy runs a 3 s and can either use theTeuto tactics for a horse every 5 turn or rush fully for 106 gp

Maxia Rax should be rushed this turn after the trading, when we know how much money we have.

Military
I think we can go after Osman at he end of next turnset with 10-12 horsies. I would target Antietam, Bursa and Izmir. The town north of Lepanto might be also interesting.

That all sounds good to me; I'd agree to gift up while we have such useful optionals to offer.

Osman's cities being the first to go is a no brainer, IMO, but I don't think it need be short and sharp, necessarily. I would at least like to see them deprived of the Iron source and the Horses. Properly set-up, we could take several cities in the opening moves of the war.

Agree to your tech plans, Kulko.
Buy Monarchy and then gift everyone to the medieval (maybe except Otto, agree, we don't want to face pikes)

How many horses can we have after the next turnset?

I guess, 10 could be a fine number to start the war. Aydin can be their reserve, other towns should be taken, I think.

That depends on how much money we e willing to spend. but we should be over ten even when we only build from hand.

We should also prepare a few settlers, to replace the destroyed cities. Otherwise the other AIs will just settle the land. With all the culture osman has been building, we can't afford to keep them.

Kulko - just played
CommandoBob - Up
Bucephalos - On Deck
socralynnek
Whomp
Paperbeetle
Rodent - Missing in Action
PrinceMyshkin - Searching for Time

I'm going to be busy with MTDG 2 this evening (Monday). I should be able to have a Strategy post up on Tuesday, but I won't be able to play until Thursday; Wednesday nights are busy. Which is not too bad; that gives everyone a day or two to review/improve/correct what I plan to do on my turns.

It looks like these turns will be a build up to war and the next player gets to start the fireworks. I'm okay with that.

If I need to be skipped I understand.

It looks like these turns will be a build up to war and the next player gets to start the fireworks. I'm okay with that.


That'll be me, then; I'll take a look at the save before Thursday, and let you know where I want things.

Does Otto have horses of his own, anyone? If he has, we might need some defensive units to hold our gains.

The Ottoman has at least two horse sources; one at Bursa which has been hooked for a while, and one unhooked source north of Lake Iznik (or Lake Lepanto as we Portuguese call it).

We need to decide our policy on reputation; do we want to make alliances against the Ottomans? If so, are we prepared to break them by giving Osman peace? Are we prepared to break other per-turn deals by dowing (I think breaking a deal with a deliberate resource cut was disallowed during the Emsworth debate)? Are we going to use ROP rape at some point?
To be competitive in SGOTM we ought to be prepared to use ROP rape at the very least. Although probably not in this particular war... I find it is a tool best saved until one has a large enough army to finish a war in just a turn or two.

The Ottoman has at least two horse sources; one at Bursa which has been hooked for a while, and one unhooked source north of Lake Iznik (or Lake Lepanto as we Portuguese call it).

We are going to need some spear builds, then.

We need to decide our policy on reputation; do we want to make alliances against the Ottomans? If so, are we prepared to break them by giving Osman peace? Are we prepared to break other per-turn deals by dowing (I think breaking a deal with a deliberate resource cut was disallowed during the Emsworth debate)?

I would say a 'guarded' no to these questions; I don't have any moral objections, it's merely that a lost rep is so handicapping. If we need an alliance in the forthcoming war - and we might, I haven't looked closely enough yet to give an opinion - then I think we should be prepared to honour it.

Are we going to use ROP rape at some point?
To be competitive in SGOTM we ought to be prepared to use ROP rape at the very least. Although probably not in this particular war... I find it is a tool best saved until one has a large enough army to finish a war in just a turn or two.

I'm not keen on ROP abuse, and if this was a solo game I'd say no; however, as you say, we may need to to remain competative. It's a one-off 'tool' though, so yes, lets wait until there is most advantage to be gained.

I'm with Buce but will go with what the team decides since this is a competition.

Signing alliances might also have the negative side effect that someone tries to finish off our target, so maybe we'd need to protect them afterwards.

ROP rape is fine, but let's use it later on if at all.

I am all for signing in the arabs on this war.

Firstly, They are not overly agressive so there is a good chance they will make peace in time.
Secondly, Otto has multiple coastal cities which are easy to protect with a worker chain. so we can always keep him alive.
Thirdly, taking the full brunt of a DG AI will cost us much more then 10 turns in having to rebuild lost troops, so even if it was assured that he would die, I think it will be the right thing to do.

As for ROP rape I am all for it a the correct time. Which is not in the first war.

Sorry to pour water on our fireworks, guys, but I think we are missing something - that AI cities are protected by Pikes already. Does this alter our thinking? It certainly alters mine; if we are still determined to go with horses, we'll need more than 10, IMO. I would rather see us with go maces and trebs, or knights.

We can still do it with horses but it will require cats and spears to do it. Slower but still necessary for us to gain ground pre knights.

Republic
90% Tax
00% Science
10% Luxury
150 gold, +62 gpt

Feudalsim in -- turns.

Unit Report
14 Workers
01 Slaves
01 Scout
04 Warriors
04 Horses
03 Curraghs

Current Units: 26
Allowed Units: 18
Support Costs: 26 gpt

City Report

Camp Elite (7) barracks in 3, grows in 2.
Flamborough Head (6) worker in 1, grows in 1.
Bosworth Field (5) vHorse in 1, zero growth.
Traflagar (4) library in 18, zero growth.
Teutoburger Wald (3) vHorse in 2, grows in 4.
Wolf 359 (2) barracks in 15, grows in 8.
Maxia (2) barracks in 18, grows in 2.
Bunker Hill (2) barracks in 6, zero growth, one taxman.
Troy (3) vHorse in 15, grows in 1.
Lepanto (1) barracks in 29, grows in 2.
Diu (2) library in 73, grows in 6.


City Builds
Barracks [5] (Camp Elite, Wolf 359, Maxia, Bunker Hill and Lepanto)
Worker [1] (Flamborough Head)
vHorse [3] (Bosworth Field, Teutoburger Wald and Troy)
Library [2] (Traflagar and Diu)

Resources Connected to Camp Elite
01 Horses

Luxuries Connected to Camp Elite
01 Wines
02 Incense
02 Ivory

International
We are at peace with the world.
We have yet to meet the Hitties and Aztecs (per MapStat).

Woker Tasks
NE of Lepanto, 2 Workers, Mine, finish in 3.
NE of Maxia, 3 Workers, 1 worker building road, finish in 3, 2 more that just moved in this turn. Road or Mine?
NE of Bosworth Field, 2 Workers, irrigate in 2.
NE-E of Bosworth Field, 1 Worker on plains, road to connect Bunker Hill?
2SE of Maxia, 2 workers, 1 Worker irrigate in 4, other one no movement left.
2S of Flamborough Head, 1 worker, irrigate in 2.
2S-1SE of Flamborough Head, 2 Workers on a hill, no movement left, mine and then road?
SE of Traflagar, 1 Worker, irrigate in 1.

SW of Wolf 359, 1 slave, irrigate and then road?


Long Term Goals
A bunch of one city civs.

Mid Range Goals
Deal with the Ottomans.

Short Range Goals

Trading

Buy Monarchy from Mongolia for Construction, Currency and 100 gold.
Get the SCI civs in the Middle Ages (except the Ottomans). That means Greece, Babylon, Germany, Russia, Persia, Korea and Sumearia.
Buy Middle Age techs with Literature, Monarchy and Republic.
Once that is done, sell Republic to Mongolia for 100 gold.
Begin to learn the techs that take us to Military Tradition (Feudalism, Engineering and Invention, for starters).

City Build Orders

Flamborough Head makes workers
Camp Elite makes Horses after the barracks is done (11 spt).
Boswowrth Field makes Horses (10 spt).
Teutoburger Wald can make 4 Turn Horses if we short rush a Bowman for 60 gold.
Troy can make 5 turn Horses with a Bowman rush in the mix.
Will try to build 1 catapult for every 4 Horses.
Will try to build 1 vSpear for every 3 Horses. We will need vSpears to guard our Catapults and garrison the cities.

Need to improve the BG NE of Bunker Hill.
Chop the forest NW of Maxia to help with the Barracks (use new worker out of Flamborough Head). This tile is not currently being worked.
Road the forests around Camp Elite?
Otherwise, Water Brown/Mine Green first, then road.
Mine and Road the Hills around Campe Elite.
Do NOT connect Iron.
Keep exploring with Curraghs.
Camp Elite will hire a taxman when it grows to size 8 (10 more units is -20 gpt in upkeep).
Upload the 1000 BC End of Turn save, let the save be processed, download it and continue.

We can still do it with horses but it will require cats and spears to do it. Slower but still necessary for us to gain ground pre knights.

Thing is, Whomp, with the current round of trading we'll have Feudalism and Monotheism; we could have Chivalry in the time it takes to build cats (trebs actually, since we'll also have Engineering) plus extra horses and spears. My point is, we are already medieval so why not build horses for a knight upgrade?

What is your intention Bucephalos?

Research Chivalry first, upgrade horses and attack Osman with knights?

Or research Chivalry before Invention, but attack Osman immediately?

I am strongly against the first Option as it will delay the attack by another 10 turns because we need to collect the money for the upgrades too.

As for the second option, I would leave this to one of the millions AIs and trade Invention for Chiv when we are both finished.

I also do not understand the need for catapults? Osman has only Spears and Swordsman now, so it should be easily defeated by a well planned attack with horse. Catapults will only slow down the attack.

Alo Whomp remember that ill placed Iron below Bunker Hill. So when we connect Bunker Hill we might as well connect the hill near flameborough too.

I think you've mis-read what I said, Kulko, or you have mis-understood. Or maybe I wasn't clear.

Firstly, we are not facing only spears and swords - the AI started this game with pikes. My assertion is that because of this we will need more than 10 horses to prosecute a worthwhile war. And the extra time required to do this will almost certainly see us have Chivalry - whether we trade for it or research it ourselves - so why not upgrade to knights?

The other alternative, IMO, would be combined arms; yes, this would probably put back the war, but would be a longer lasting offensive force. I believe that a force of just horses would peter out fairly quickly.

As for my intentions, I don't have any - I will happily play the set any way that the team wishes; I am merely putting forward options based on 'new' information ('new' in the sense that it seems that we had forgotten that the AI starts with pikes)

It's only 1 pike though. On its own it isn't going to cost more than 1 or 2 extra horses. Do we know where it is stationed? Of course, there is a danger that Osman reaches the medieval without our intervention, and gets hold of Feudalism, either as his free tech or by trading his draw with someone else. Even then, at least two of the three towns we are targetting probably don't have barracks yet.
Personally I would concentrate on horse building at the moment, but not spend any cash on short-rushing. Upgrading is a more efficient way of converting cash into shields. Meanwhile, we get our towns up to size 7 to reduce the upkeep spending. When we get to 10 or 15 horses, we look at the Ottoman position and see whether we want to chance a short war to reclaim the missing portion of our core, or whether we delay until Chivalry.

It's only 1 pike though. On its own it isn't going to cost more than 1 or 2 extra horses.

In that case I withdraw my comments.


Do we know where it is stationed?

We do - it's visable in Iznik, across the water from Lepanto.

CBob: if you can raise enough units during your set, this is where I'd like them; the red dots represent horses, the blue dots defenders (and settlers if we are 'raze and replacing').

I'd like the horses at a ratio of about 60/40, the larger stack near lake Lepanto.

@ Bucephalos, I was just unsure what exactly you meant. But I believe we have all very similar ideas.

I do fully agree with PBs post.

@ Bucephalos, I was just unsure what exactly you meant. But I believe we have all very similar ideas.

I do fully agree with PBs post.

No worries, mate. :)

Got it. I think I misunderstood too.
Let's build horses and be prepared for the onslaught.

So this is still a good production ratio to try and obtain?

1 catapult for every 4 Horses I build
1 vSpear for every 3 Horses I build

With no cash rushing.

What about settlers? I don't have any planned but I could sneak one into a build sequence.

Since we are going with horses after all, cats - as Kulko mentioned - will slow the pace of the attack; I'd prefer to see the shields build a spear or two-thirds of a horse.

As far as settlers are concerned, we'll need at least one to replace our flipped city, which will auto-raze unless Osman builds some culture in the next set, more if we decide that we are going to raze Bursa and Iznik. I'm not sure if we need to now we have a few libraries. What does the team think?

The flip risk for Bunker Hill or Lepanto is about 0,5% by now and will hopefully slowly sink because of all the Libs we build. But for a city with foreign citizens it will be significantly higher and we still plan to keep Osman alive forever.

So I definitely would raze Iznik and Bursa too. Alkso I think both cities are suboptimally placed for our pattern. (Iznik should move onto the ice, and Bursa divided into two cities)

To avoid resettling by an AI we need two settlers, one for Antietam and one for Bursa, a with two more coming along later.

Since CampElite was supposed to have a specialist anyway I strongly recommend building a settler there instead, maybe even get the SF running again for a few turnsets.

As an prerequisite for the attack I would define the following forces:

2 Settlers
11 Horses (7 + 4)
2 with 2 more in Production.

As for cash rushing now, the Return is slightly smaller 4:1 insteadt of 3:1 but using the money now means we can attack Osman earlier and regain 2 RCP4 (There was another
planed near Bursa) and reduces the risk that we will face Pikes because the buildup was to slow. I therefore would use it modestly to speed up proceedings. Without spending Money we need 2 turnsets to produce all the units we need and that is more time lost then it is worth I believe, especially consoidering that we have good potential to gain new money very easy on this crowded map.


PS: I think there is a good chance that Osman is researching Monarchy right now, so we might also want to sell Mon to every civ which owns Con or Cur and is known to Osman to reduce his trade potential.

In case you are wondering where I am, I am still around.

I dont participate in Discussions since I cant contribute anything worthwhile.

I dont participate in Discussions since I cant contribute anything worthwhile.

Anything you might say is worthwhile. You must have noticed that we have had a number of differences of opinion already; the more contributions that we get, the easier it becomes to see where we should be going, and to thrash out a consensus.

I'm sure I speak for the rest of the team when I say that anything that you say will be given due consideration.

I agree with Kulko regarding spending money now to prepare our forces earlier; if we leave it too long our horses will need upgrading - they have a very short shelf-life in terms of effectiveness.

Agree with Kulko here. We should build some horses fast, even using money to rush it.

Time is money as well...

I'm also on board with rushing horses.

I would agree on Rushing Horses, We have a very Short and limited time in which we can use them, so better rush them fast so we can use them to the fullest

My wife had plans for the evening and I was not able to play.

I will play tonight.

Gameplay begins with trading.

Mongols

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/SGOTM14-Elite/ts08/1025_Mongols.jpg



Buy Monarchy from the Mongols for Currency, Construction and 100 fo 150 gold.
Save game to refresh MapStat on trading options.
Well, its pretty much the same. I should have seen that.

Mongols are the richest at 130 gold.


Persia

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/SGOTM14-Elite/ts08/1025_Persia.jpg



Persia (SCI) is 2nd at 62 gold.
Sell Code of Laws to Persia for 6 gpt and 62 of 62 gold.

Bablyon

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/SGOTM14-Elite/ts08/1025_Babylon.jpg



Babylon (SCI) has 47 gold.
Sell Code of Laws to Babylon for 47 of 47 gold.

Germany

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/SGOTM14-Elite/ts08/1025_Germany.jpg



Germany (SCI) has 45 gold.
Sell Map Making to Germany for 45 of 45 gold.

Greece

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/SGOTM14-Elite/ts08/1025_Greece.jpg



Greece (SCI) has 44 gold.
Sell Map Making to Greece for 44 of 44 gold.
America (not SCI) has 38 gold. Later.

Korea

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/SGOTM14-Elite/ts08/1025_Korea.jpg



Korea (SCI) has 37 gold.
Sell Writing to Korea for 37 of 37 gold.

Sumeria

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/SGOTM14-Elite/ts08/1025_Sumeria.jpg



Sumeria is almost broke, with 1 gold.
We sell Philosophy to Sumeria for 1 of 1 gold.

We now have 286 gold and +68 gpt.
Save game.

Now to gift the SCI civs into the Middle Ages. Russia is already there.

Make a note to myself that Literature, Monarchy and Republic are optional techs in the Ancient Ages.

Persia gets Construction and Currency.
Babylon gets Construction and Currency, also.
Germany gets Construction and Currency.
Greece needs more help, receiving Code of Laws, Construction, Currency and Philosophy.
Korea needs six techs to advance; Code of Laws, Construction, Currency, Map Making, Philosophy and Polytheism.
Sumeria is better off than Korea and needs only Code of Laws, Construction and Currency.
Save game.

Five of the six civs learn Engineering; Persia learns Monotheism.

From Korea, the dumbest of the SCI civs, we can get Engineering for Monarchy or Republic. Sumeria will trade on those terms, too. No one will trade us Engineering for Literature. Babylon, Germany, Greece and Russia won't move on Monarchy but will trade Engineering for Republic.

Korea Again

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/SGOTM14-Elite/ts08/1025_KoreaEngineering.jpg



Trade Korea Monarchy for Engineering.

Persia still wants Monarchy and Republic for Monotheism. We don't need it that badly.
save game.

Ottomans lack 4 techs from entering the Middle Ages: Code of Laws, Construction, Currency and Map Making, They have 34 gold.


Mongols Again

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/SGOTM14-Elite/ts08/1025_MongolLiterature.jpg



We sell Literature to Mongols for 130 of 130 gold.
We now have 416 gold.
America is second richest with 38 gold.

Now that we have the most cash we are a target for a shake down. We can sell other techs for gold, but let's reduce the treasury some. We'll sell techs to help us cash rush.

Rush the vHorse in Teutoburger Wald for 40 of 416 gold.
Camp Elite barracks -> rGalley for for 92 of 376 gold.
Camp Elite rGalley -> barracks in 1.
Bunker Hill rushes the barracks for 48 of 284 gold.
We now have 236 gold.

Bunker Hill sits on Iron, something I forgot. It can build Swords and Spears. We lack Feudalism (and so does everyone else) so we cannot build Pikes and Maces.

Hit Enter.


No one threatens us for cash. I was worried that they would.

Camp Elite barracks -> settler in 3.
Flamborough Head worker -> worker in 2.
Bosworth Field vHorse -> vHorse in 3.
Teutoburger Wald vHorse -> vHorse in 6.
Bunker Hill barracks -> vSpear in 10.


[I] 1 1000 BC

Naval
Curragh01 explores the Incan tundra.
Currahg02, currently in Mayan waters, sails 2W and finds Lahore of India.
Curragh03, sails south down the east side of Sumeria.

Units
New Horse in Bosworth Field to Bunker Hill.
vHorse SW of Camp Elite moves towards Lepanto, crossing through Ottoman land to do so.
Need another road to Teutoburger Wald. One tile of the current road is in Ottoman hands.
New vHorse in Teutoburger Wald to Lepanto.
ScoutA moves out of Zulu into no-mans land SE-ish of Bunker Hill.

Workers
Two workers begin mine the grass NE of Maxia, finish in 3.
One worker 2SW of Maxia, road, finish in 3.
One worker on hill W of Wolf 359, helps the other worker mine, finsih in 5.
One worker SE of Traflagar, roads the irrigated flood plain, finish in 3.
New worker in Flamborough Head moves to the forest NW of Maxia, to chop and road.
We begin to road to Bunker Hill, finish in 3.

One slave SW of Wolf 359, irrigate, finish in 8.

Cycle Through the Cities
Troy vHorse in 9 -> vSpear in 6.
Rush vSpear for 68 of 304 gold.
Troy vSpear in 1 -> vHorse in 4.

236 gold, +57 gpt.

Save game and exit, upload to the server.
[IBT]
And the save is >>HERE<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm14/Elite_SG014_BC1000_01.SAV).
I've stopped here but will pick up the game tomorrow.

Plans:
No research on Feudalism; let someone else do that for us.
Bunker Hill sits on Iron. I plan to connect it to Camp Elite. We can build Swords, but won't. Our Ottoman war will be a Horse war.
Will sell techs for cash for rushing, as needed.

The Lepanto Road

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/SGOTM14-Elite/ts08/T1000_LepantoRoad.jpg


Just showing where we need to build our road to connect our two northern cities. Not sure which worker(s) will get this task.

Gameplay begins with trading.
Five of the six civs learn Engineering; Persia learns Monotheism.

Bugger them all. This Guy really hates us. another 10 turn to waste while we wait or a AI to research feudalism.



Rush the vHorse in Teutoburger Wald for 40 of 416 gold.


Please read my remarks on how to rush our horses as cost effective as possible. Teutoburg is making 5 spt so I believe it should only partrush to spear and finish themselves. We have more than enough other spaces where we can spend our money wasting fewer shields.


Bunker Hill rushes the barracks for 48 of 284 gold.


I think Maxia and Wolf would have been better spots for that. They have lower corruption and will be faster developed.

As for the new Lepanto Road, there should be a woker coming out of flameborough head every other turn, that is more than enough to finish this task.

Checking his, found that the worker Factory has not been reset after growth. PLEASE I have made some effort to describe all these things in my "end of turnset" post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7453445&postcount=173) to avoid this.

Please read my remarks on how to rush our horses as cost effective as possible.

I see I should have explained my rushing reasoning in more detail.

The main goal was to spend some gold, but not all of it, to avoid AI extortion attempts. We are weak compared to Ottoman, Zulu and Russia. We plan to fight the Ottomans and do not need a war with anyone to disrupt our plans. If we were strong compared to them I would have kept the gold in the bank.

In detail:

In Teutobureger Wald it was not possible to short rush a unit and then allow the city to complete the Horse on its own, not in one turn. It was already at 20 shields and nothing costs 25 shields. It was a waste of 20 gold, but I felt it was a worthwhile waste. An AI would demand more than 20 gold from us. We could waste it or they could take it. I'd rather waste it. (Well, in this situation I would.)

Rushing the barracks in Camp Elite was expensive and somewhat useless since the next few builds will be settlers and not Horses. Once the settlers are built, then the Horses will be veteran units. Barracks - settler - settler - Horse seemed a better plan than settler - settler - barracks - Horse.

Bunker Hill was a cheaper rush than than Maxia or Wolf 359; 12 shields to go while the others had only 2 shields committed towards a barracks. Those cities will grow. Bunker Hill will not, not until it is connected anyway, and let our luxuries pacify the people. Plus, it is the more isolated city.

On the other items:

Lepanto Road will most likely be built by the next worker out of Flamborough Head. I didn't see the Ottoman culture expansion when the worker became active and so I sent it to chop that forest.

I did forget about resetting the worker pump in Flamborough Head. :sad: I am glad you pointed that out to me. At the time, I was focused on my notes and ending the turn for the upload. I will fix that before I continue playing.

Bugger them all. This Guy really hates us. another 10 turn to waste while we wait or a AI to research feudalism.

Gifting Results
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/SGOTM14-Elite/ts08/1025_GiftResults.jpg

Gotta agree with that. This seems like an unusual / abnormal / unexpected distribution of results. Out of six AI I would have expected at least one to 'discover' Feudalism.

On the bright side, if no one knows Feudalism, then the Ottoamns don't know it either. That means only 1 Pike in their inventory and no Maces.

If we sell techs-for-lump sum gold to the Ottomans once or twice before the war we can keep them broke enough so that they can't buy Feudalism.

Thanks for clarifying, but I still disagree on the Teutoburg reasoning.

We have 236 gp + 57 gpt. So in 10 turns we can spend 578 gp lets say 650 with some sales on the way.

With optimal partial rushing see spoiler we will have
total Cost: 744 goldpieces
total force: 18 horses and 2 spears.
Since this is more money then we might have lets reduce this by 2 horses.


First we should buy all rushes which don't waste a shield:

Bosworth:
Turn 1 put 10s in the box
Turn 2 rush to 20s add 10s for a finished horse
Run this Cycle 5 times for 5 horses and cost of 200 gp.

Camp Elite
Same Cycle put run it for a settler, 3 horses and another settler costing 200 gp.

So we have spend most of our money already. No lets do the others.

Bunker Hill
We have just build a barack there and its near the front so lets do something here.
Turn 1: 2s in he box
Turn 2: rush to 20s (72gp) and set t horse again
Turn 3-6 finish Horse
Turn 7: 2s
Turn 8: 4s
Turn 9: Rush to Spear (64gp)
A horse and a Spear for 138 gp and a waste of 2 shields.
Actually it will be a bit cheaper once the road is finished because more people can be put to work.

Troy
Turn 1-4 Finish Horse
Turn 5: 3s in the box
Turn 6: Rush to 20 s (68 gp)
Turn 7-9: finish Horse (now 4 spt)
2 horses for 68 gp and a waste of 4 shields.

Teutoburg
Turn 1: add 5s
Turn 2: rush to 20s (60 gp)
Turn 3: finish horse
Rinse and repeat for horse, spear (rush for 20gp)and horse and a cost of 140 gp with no wasted shields.


Conclusio
With 5 baracks online we have more then enough ways to spend money without ever wasting a shield and should therefore avoid it.
Also since this is a few more horsies then we need I suggest we start the war 2 or 3 turns earlier. Of course that means we have to pull the spears and settlers a bit forward in the build queue.

As for the bad RNG luck at the MA start, this is actually a well known team curse. I remember SGOTM12 when we all teams managed to get a second tier tech as their free tech, and ours was the only one to get Chivalry. instead of one of the required techs.
It must be something Team Newbie did in SGOTM11 that brought the curse upon us. Sorry we didn't warn you beforehand.

:lol: No worries! Let's just pound these guys into submission now...because we can. :D

Loaded up the downloaded save from the game server.

In Flamborough Head, work an irrigated plain instead of the Iron Hill. City grows in 2, worker is built in 2.
Work the other irrigated plain instead of the forest, commerce goes up to 23, worker still in 2.

Ottomans move a worker to the Horse tile near Lepanto.

India complains about our rowboat by Lahore. We agree to move.

Temple of Artemis is built in Moscow, Russia.
The Great Wall is built in Zimbabwe, Zulu.
The Great Library is built in Kazan, Mongolia.
The Hanging Gardens are built in Istanbul, Ottomania.

[I] 2 0975 BC

Naval
Curragh01, N of Corihuaychina of Inca, W and SW, along the coast.
Curragh02, SE of Lahore, sails N along the coast.
Curragh03, sails south towards a rather dark-green border.

Units
ScoutA, NW and N, ending NE of Bunker Hill.
Move vHorse into Lepanto, fortify.
Fortify the current Horse in Lepanto.
Fortify the current Horse in Bunker Hill.

Workers
Start the forest chop NW of Maxai, finish in 4.
Two workers NE of Bosworth Fields, irrigation done, move towards the attack hill north of Bunker Hill, to road.
WorkerB, 2S of Flamborough Head, irrigation done, moves to rebuild the Lepanto Road, NE, N and N.

Cycle Through the Cities
Camp Elite, now size 8, hires a taxman.
Bosworth Field vHorse in 3 -> vSpear in 1.
Rush the Spear for 40 of 296 gold.
Bosworth Field vSpear in 1 -> vHorse in 1.
Troy vHorse in 3 (7 shields @ 3 spt) rush for 28 of 256 gold.

228 gold, +62 gpt.


Flamborough Head worker -> worker in 2 (city is reset).
Bosworth Field vHorse -> vHorse in 3.
Troy vHorse -> vHorse in 10.


[I] 3 0950 BC

Naval
Curragh01, having circled the land of Inca, sails south for more fogbusting.
Curragh02, finds Delhi and Calcutta of India.
Curragh03, meets the Hitties, since they sent out a Galley to meet us.

Hitties have 35 gold, we have 290.
We also have 5 techs they do not: Math, Philo, CoL, Lit and Monarchy.

Curragh03 sails clockwise around their land.

Units
ScoutA, N onto a hill in Ottomania.
New vHorse in Troy moves to the hill N of Bunker Hill, protecting our workers.
New vHorse in Bosworth Field does the same.

Workers
One worker NE of Maxia, road finished, helps with mine build.
WorkerB, NE of FH, NE, NE and N.
New worker in FH, 3NE, to help with the Lepanto Road.
Two workers, NE of Lepanto, mine done, roads in 2.
E of Bunker Hill, one worker helps complete the road and Bunker Hill is now connected and happier (I hope). Other worker and the just released worker move to the hill N of Bunker Hill, to road.

Cycle Through the Cities
Camp Elite hires two taxmen, settler still finishes this turn.
Teutoburger Wald vHorse in 4 -> vSpear in 2.
Rush vSpear for 40 of 290 gold.
Teutoburger Wald vSpear in 1 -> vHorse in 2.
Bunker Hill fires taxman to become a plains farmer, city grows in 20.

250 gold, +55 gpt.


Ottomans upset about ScoutA. We promise to be nice.

Curragh01 is ambused by a white ship and promotes to Veteran.

Camp Elite settler -> settler in 4.

[I] 4 0925 BC

Naval
Curragh01, sails S.
Curragh02, SE of Calcutta, is blocked from moving by a Zulu galley due N, so we move 1NE to let them pass by.
Curragh03, sails SE and spots a darker green border to the SE.

Units
Settler01 fortifies in Camp Elite.
Two vHorses on the hill N of Bunker Hill fortify.
ScoutA wanders N through Ottomania.

Workers
WorkerB and the newest worker from FH move to the Lepanto Road tile.
Two workers begin to road the hill N of Bunker Hill, finish in 3.
Worker W of Bunker Hill moves to the BG NW of the city, to mine and road.
Two workers W of Troy move SE onto plains, to irrigate and road.
Three workers NE of Maxia move E, SE and E again, ending on a plains tile. Will road this tile to give another way to Bunker Hill that is not so close to the Ottoman borders.
Worker N of Diu moves S and E onto flood plain, irrigate and road.

Cycle Through the Cities
Bosworth Field, vHorse in 2 -> vSpear in 1.
In Troy we work the just irrigated plain instead of the forest, grow in 3, not 4, vHorse still due in 9.
Diu, we work the flood plain instead of the hill, grow in 1, not 2, library still at 1spt. I should have seen this switch earlier. This city could already by at size 3.

305 gold, +44 gpt.

Current units: 33
Allowed units: 11
Unit support: 44 gpt

We have 8 vHorses, 1 settler and 0 spears.


Flamborough Head worker -> worker in 2 (city is reset).
Bosworth Field vSpear -> vHorse in 3.
Teutoburger Wald vHorse -> vHorse in 6.

[I] 5 0900 BC

Naval
Curragh01 2SW out of Inca, into unclaimed waters.
Curragh02, Zulu Galley far to the south, 2NW.
Curragh03 sails SE and sees some Aztec Spears.

We talk to the Aztecs.
They have 0 gold, we have 351 gold.
They are dumber than the Hitties, lacking even Mysticsm. We can also trade them Math, Philo, CoL and Lit. We don't.

Curragh03 sails S towards a volcano, looking for cities.

Units
vSpear in Bosworth Field moves 1N and fortifies.
ScoutA, 2SW of Edrine, moves westward to uncover terrain improvements closer to our borders.
New vHorse in TW moves to protect the workers SE of Lepanto.
Wake the two vHorses in Lepanto and allow them to also guard the workers.

Workers
Two worker NE of Lepanto, road complete, move 1S, to mine and road.
Two workers begin the road to reconnect Lepanto, finish in 2.
Worker E of Diu, irrigate in 4.
Two workers SW of Troy, irrigate in 2.
Three workers 2NE of Troy start and finish a back road to Bunker Hill.
Worker NE of Bunker Hill mines, finish in 6.
New worker from FH goes to the forest chop. The chop will finish this IBT; next turn the two workers can irrigate.

Cycle Through the Cities
Swap the mined BG 2SE of Camp Elite from Bosworth Field so that the settler in Camp Elite completes in 2, as it grows on the IBT.
Bosworth Field now nets 9spt, down from 10.
Rush the vSpear in Bunker Hill for 48 of 351 gold, mainly to spend our cash.

303 gold, +39 gpt.

9 Horse, 1 settler and 1 Spear.


Forest harvested in Maxia for 10 shields.

Hitties are worried about Curragh03. Yeah, right, we're just being nosy.

Bunker Hill vSpear -> vSpear in 10.

[I] 6 0875 BC

Naval
Curragh01 sails SW into French waters.
Curragh02 sails counterclockwise around India.
Curragh03 sails 2NE along the Aztec coast.

Units
New vSpear in Bunker Hill moves to 1N of Bosworth Field, to fortify.
Wake the vSpear already in that tile and move to 1NE of Camp Elite, to fortify.

:wallbash:
I just realized that we have Engineering and don't need to avoid the streams and rivers. It hasn't made a difference in movement results, but still that is a big Oops!

ScoutA moves NW, hill to hill.

Workers
Three workers 2NE of Troy move to 1NE of Bunker Hill, to help complete the mine next turn.
Well, that was the plan until I miskeyed the first worker 1NE onto an unroaded plains tile!
The other two move as planned, but one will road and the other help mine.
The hill W of Wolf 359 is mined, the two workers build a road, finish in 3.
Two workers irrigate the revealed plains tile NW of Maxia, finish in 2.
Two workers begin to mine 1SE of Lepanto, finish in 3.

Cycle Through the Cities
Bosworth Field vHorse in 3 -> vSpear in 2.
Rush vspear for 44 of 342 gold.
Bosworth Field vSpear in 1 -> vHorse in 2.
Troy vHorse in 7 -> vSpear in 4.
Rush the Spear for 44 of 298 gold.
Troy vSpear in 1 -> vhHorse in 4 (and growth on the IBT).

254 gold, +37 gpt.

9 Horse, 1 settler and 2 Spear.

[IBT]
Aztecs are flustered about Curragh03. Just can't make some people happy.
France is confounded by Curragh01 near Lyons. Get a grip on life, Joan.

Japan unloads two units, an rSpear and an rWarrior north of Flamborough Head.

Camp Elite settler -> settler in 4. The minded BG is free for Bosworth Fields.
Flamborough Head worker -> worker in 2 (city is reset).

Save game and post log. Not sure of what to do.

And the save is >>HERE<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm14/Elite_SG014_BC0850_01.SAV), at the start of the 850 BC turn.

Japan Invades or Not?
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/SGOTM14-Elite/ts08/T850_JapanInvades.jpg

As you can see, we have Japanese troops inside our borders. Flamborough Head appears to be threatened, but we have 3 vHorses in Camp Elite. We can move all three to FH and defend it.

The 2nd Galley, down by Traflagar, is a bigger worry. That city is garrisoned by a Warrior, so two units might be enough to capture it.

I don't know what is best to do. This looks like a hostile move. On my own, I would send Horses to FH, wake the Spears and move them to block the plains and hill south of Camp Elite and let Japan make the first move. If they attack, we get War Happiness. If not, well, that will probably work in our favor, since they are headed to do somebody else some harm.

Or, we could attack them this turn and make sure that they could not pillage or capture a city.

I favor staying alert and letting them throw the first punch.

However, that is really a team decision, not mine alone.

Can we buy something from Japan for gpt? or gift a lux?

Lets wait what the others see.

Can we buy something from Japan for gpt? or gift a lux?

Lets wait what the others see.
According to MapStat, Japan has 4 gold and lacks Math, CoL, Philo, Lit and Monarchy.

MapStat does not show any luxuries that we could trade. As I recall the world map, Japan is on a different landmass than us.

Can we boot them? I would say we should. This is a war attempt, No Doubts about that, landing next to an Undefended City.

AI can use Spears and Warriors to capture undefended cities. I have usually found that if a Defensive unit of sufficient power (say another spear) is put there they can be dissauded from declaring, but we dont have any spears there so we should boot them.

If we boot and they delcare we are no better off than waiting for them to do something next turn. In fact, we are a bit worse off, since we have this turn to prepare for their DoW. We move units into Flamborough Head (the Horses in Camp Elite), move our Spears to block the road to Camp Elite and move the Horses at Lepanto and Bunker Hill back towards the Japanese. We do nothing this turn, but we are in position to kill them next turn (and not put any cities at risk if we lose a battle or two).

I can't tell how far along the build is in Diu but I think we can change that to a spear in the worst case to cover Trafalgar. If we give them the boot order all three horses can be brought to Flamborough Head. Changing from worker to another horse would seal their fate.

Gifting them CoL would allow us to build a Embassy and try to build positive relations but honestly I've had AI hit me even with a ROP.

The good news with a boot order and DOW by the Japanese means war happiness for a long time since the AI is horrific on seaborne assaults and this would be it for their incursions for a long, long time.

I guess, if we tell them to leave and they declare, we can move horses to Flamborough and attack their units. Normally, I'd guess 3 horses are enough for a regular spear and a regular warrior. And we'd get War happiness.

Trafalgar already has 50 shields into the library, so switching means a loss.

It might be as well that the Galley is heading for some other place. Or is even empty. In any case, we should rush a unit in Diu.

I calculated the odds for our other option:

3 veteran horse + 2 veteran spear vs 1 reg spear and a reg warrior gives 97% of overall victory.
If we attack with only 2 horses + 2 spears and move the third into the city we come out with 88%.

I don't think we need to worry much about the second boat, if we leave Flameborough empty it will sail to the same spot and land there too.

Its one horse too few to really like these odds, but it is an option worth thinking about.

Otherwise it comes down to trading x gpt for 4gp where somebody with more experience needs to define x.

Two spears and four horses (after a rushed horse in Flamborough). There's no way we can't defend this turn and retaliate next.

I'd also be stunned if they attacked with both units. In fact, I'd guess the warrior attacks with a 21.6% win rate (10.8% loses 2hps, 7.5% 1 hp and only 3.3% chance of losing zero hp) and spear chooses to then pillage.

To conlude or options:

A) Boot now
They declare and we attack.

Pro: The Horse in Bunker Hill can reach the battle too, if necessary or move to Flameborough as a defender.

Contra: There is a 3% chance that the japanese stack will survive. We can have one or two horses in lame then, but it means pillage


Fortify now and boot next turn
I don't see them declaring if do not leave an open target, but they might stay and give us a chance to boot next turn.

PRO: We are even better prepared.

Con: We don't know were galley 2 will land without the juicy target of an empty Flamebrough.

C) Pay them
PRO: We have our head free.

Contra: No war happyness, we migth pay not enough.

I am open with all three options, but prefer option A).

As for rushing, a Spear in Diu and calling back the horses a bit so that they can attack next turn is al it needs, so please keep the factories running.

Since there's virtually nowhere to go on boot my guess is they'll declare regardless of what we do even with bribing.

I'm for a A. I would attack once with a horse. We have a 58.9% of a win and 20.2% chance of a draw. If the spear won it would have nearly a 17.3% chance of losing 2 hps, ~15% of losing 1hp and 8.8% of zero. If we win or draw I would send a second horse to finish but if we lose move the remaining three horses in to fortify. Rush a horse in Flamborough and bring the spears back to the hill so they can move either to Elite or Flamborough.

Let's not underestimate the benefits of war happiness.

Option 'A' for me too.

For sure, stick the boot in. (A)
That is certainly an invasion attempt, and my experience of the AI is that it is essentially impossible to bribe them off. We could give them 400gpt, all our resources and an MPP, and they would still break the deals and make the sneak attack. Possibly they will still make the same attack even if we defend the town. The only good method I know of averting such an attack is to ally Japan against another foe that those units can reach. Of course, there's no need to do that here, as we don't want to dow Osman just yet, we aren't afraid of the Japanese, and we would like the war happiness.
And I would attack on this turn rather than defend because we get a better chance of promtions, we don't lose the use of that tile during the interturn, and we don't want to bother replacing the improvements. For extra security in Flamboro, the horses can move to the town and then attack, so that they will defend it on the interturn as well if they survive.
I would open an embassy with Japan before booting his units; we might want to tie our eventual peace deal to another war. Shall we ally his neighbours against him? Pros: we could use renegotiated peace deals to fish for further war happiness; we insure against him bringing them into the war, which would lose us trade partners. Cons: they might kill him off entirely; we might get caught short and want to give Toku peace before the deals end.

It appears to me it would be very difficult for the Japanese to bring someone into this war since they're the furthest back techwise and in the short run can't establish embassies anyhow. Anyone they could bring into the war would be behind techwise, as well. If they or their partner attacked us they'd A. increase our war happiness further and B. give us great leader fishing material.

My view is making peace with the Japanese won't be necessary at least until they get samurais, if ever.

Just to summarize, in case I've missed something:

Build an embassy with Japan
Give them the Boot order
Watch Japan declare war
Attack with 2 Horses
Attack with Spears if needed
if any Japanese units are still alive, move last Horse into Flamborough Head
otherwise, leave Flamborough Head undefended as bait for the other galley

Just to summarize, in case I've missed something:

Build an embassy with Japan
Give them the Boot order
Watch Japan declare war
Attack with 2 Horses
Attack with Spears if needed
if any Japanese units are still alive, move last Horse into Flamborough Head
otherwise, leave Flamborough Head undefended as bait for the other galley

Well the first item could be debated. Moving all four horses (one at a time of course) into Flamborough is not. Moving the two spears back in that direction is also not debatable but attacking with them most definitely is.

Japan is quite a way off, so an embassy wouldn't come cheap; I think I'd rather see the money spent on preparation for the campaign against Osman.

CBob, I think you've probably misunderstood re. the spears - I don't think that anyone meant that they be used as offensive units. At least, I hope not....

Edit: Persia will now trade Mono for Republic and Engineering; considering that they hold it as a monopoly, maybe that's an ok trade?

Attack with spears only when sensible (the warrior is down to his last hp for instance.
Don't forget the horse in Bunker Hill. It can reach flameborough too.

If in doubt play it a bit more defensively and keep one more defender in Flameborough then there are surviving attackers. Rush enough units that you feel comfortable with having to handle it. Bring back the horses for a turn or two, so that we can counterattack any point the other galley might choose.

Attack with spears only when sensible (the warrior is down to his last hp for instance.
Don't forget the horse in Bunker Hill. It can reach flameborough too.

If in doubt play it a bit more defensively and keep one more defender in Flameborough then there are surviving attackers. Rush enough units that you feel comfortable with having to handle it. Bring back the horses for a turn or two, so that we can counterattack any point the other galley might choose.
Ah! That is where the mysterious 4th Horseman of the Japanese Apocalypse is hiding. I missed that reference earlier.

Attacking with Spears is risky and not my first choice. I'm hoping the Horses do the job.

Edit: Persia will now trade Mono for Republic and Engineering; considering that they hold it as a monopoly, maybe that's an ok trade?

Wouldn't we want to wait until Feudalism is available and then trade for it? That's why I haven't been checking on Persia; I've been waiting for Feudalism to show up.

I'm not disagreeing, just explaining. To me, the subject is open for more discussion.

I'd make the trade so we can start the process towards getting faster boats. By the time we finish theo someone will likely have researched Feud. The AI loves those government techs.

Wouldn't we want to wait until Feudalism is available and then trade for it? That's why I haven't been checking on Persia; I've been waiting for Feudalism to show up.

I'm not disagreeing, just explaining. To me, the subject is open for more discussion.

Maybe. My thoughts are that we might lose our option once Persia meet someone else with Republic, or research it themselves, and right now we'd have it to trade-on as a monopoly to anyone that doesn't know Persia. And once we have it, there is still the option to use it for a trade for Feudalism.

After discussion, check on embassy cost.
Boot or War to Japan, expecting war.
4v Horses attack the two units.

Also, get Monotheism from Persia for Republic and Engineering.

Download save from the game server.

7 0850 BC

Cost 67 gold of 291 gold to embassy with Japan. Russia, on our landmass, is 32 gold. Ottomans are 36.
Go back and forth on an embassy with Japan. Finally decide 'Yes', just to get it done and over with. Once we have it, we can use. If it isn't built, we can't use and may forget to build it later. We can get the gold back by selling techs to France.

Kyoto 850 BC

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/SGOTM14-Elite/ts08/850_Kyoto.jpg


Japan

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/SGOTM14-Elite/ts08/850_JapanDoW.jpg


Talked to Japan.
Asked them to leave.
They declared war on us.
So much for being nice.


Defending Portugal
vHorse in Bunker Hill moves 4W and stops on the hill.
vHorse from Camp Elite vs. rSpear, Horse wins (1 of 1).
vHorse from Camp Elite vs. rWarrior, Horse wins (2 of 2).


Naval
Curragh01, NE of Lyons, sails 2S.
Curragh02 sails E-SE past Madras.
Curragh03, sails NE along the Aztec coast.

Units
Settler02 fortifies in Camp Elite.
vSpear NE of Camp Elite fortifies.
ScoutA moves NE along the road in Ottomania.
vHorse from Bunker Hill, 1N of Maxia, fortifies.
vSpear N of Bosworth Field fortifies.

Workers
Road to Lepanto completed, two workers mine the newly roaded grassland, finish in 3.
Two workers on the hill N of Bunker Hill, road completed, mine, finish in 6.
Worker adds to mine NE of Bunker Hill, finish in 2.
Other worker in that tile begins a road, finish in 3.
Worker SW of Bunker Hill begins road, finish in 3.
Two workers SE of Troy, irrigation done, start road, finish in 2.
New worker in Flamborough Head moves to the Iron Hill, to mine and road. This is a defensive move, so that the AI does not land on this hill.

Cycle Through the Cities
Drop luxury rate to 0%, only FH has happiness issues.
Hire a taxman in FH, grows in 3, worker in 2.
Hire 2nd taxman for one turn; need to fire next turn to grow/prouduce worker at the same time.
Teutoburger Wald vHorse in 4 -> vSpear in 2.
Rush vspear for 40 of 224 gold.
Teutoburger Wald vSpear in 1 -> vHorse in 2.

Trading
Talk to Persia.

Persia

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/SGOTM14-Elite/ts08/850_Persia.jpg


Sell Republic and Engineering to Persia for Monotheism, 4 gpt and 75 of 75 gold.

259 gold, +46 gpt

9 Horse, 2 Spear and 2 Settlers.


Bosworth Field vHorse -> vSpear in 2.

[I] 8 0825 BC


Naval
Curragh01 sails down West France.
Curragh02 sails down West India.
Curragh03 sails N towards a Red border.

Units
New vHorse in Bosworth Field moves to 1N of Maxia and fortifies, ready for a second wave of Japanese units.
Both vHorses heal.
ScoutA moves N, onto a roaded Iron hill .

Workers
Two workers NW of Maxia, forest gone and plains watered, begins road, finish in 2.
Worker on our own Iron Hill begins to mine, finish in 12.

Cycle Through the Cities
Fire a taxman in Flamborough Head, city grows in 2, worker in 2.
In Diu, work the unimproved grass instead of the unimproved hill for faster growth.

305 gold, +45 gpt.

10 Horse, 2 Spear and 2 Settlers.

No new Techs.


True to form, Japan invades again, same location, with an rSpear and an rWarrior.

Teutoburger Wald vHorse -> vHorse in 6.
Maxia barracks -> vSpear in 7.
Troy vHorse -> vHorse in 8.

[I] 9 0800 BC

Defending Portugal
vHorse vs. rSpear, Horse retreats, Spear promotes (2 of 3).
vHorse vs. vSpear 3/4, Horse wins and promotes to Elite (3 of 4).
vHorse vs. rWarrior, Warrior wins and promotes (3 of 5).
vHorse vs. vWarrior 2/4, Horse wins (4 of 6).

Naval
Curragh01 sees Paris of France.
Curragh02 finds Bangalore of India.
Curragh03 finds Neapolis of Rome.

Units
New vHorse in Teutoburger Wald moves to protect the workers SE of Lepanto.
ScoutA N and W.
New vHorse in Troy joins the Horses N of Bunker Hill. Can't seem to stay on the road, so it arrives in Bunker Hill and will join the other Horses next turn.
Wounded Horses move into Camp Elite for some TLC.

Workers
Two worker SE of Lepanto, mine done, start road, finish in 2.
Two workers on the hill W of Wolf 359, mine finished, move SE of Wolf 359 to irrigate and road.
Slave01, irrigation done, begins to road, finish in 6.
Worker E of Diu roads the irrigated flood plain, finish in 3.
Two workers SW of Troy, road and watering done, move to 2NE of Troy, to irrigate a roaded plain.
Mine NE of Bunker Hill completes, releasing two workers.
One worker helps complete the road in real time.
Other worker moves onto the hill, to help mine, finish in 3.
Former roading worker also helps the mining effort, finish in 2.


Cycle Through the Cities
Rush the vSpear in Bunker Hill for 52 of 351 gold.

299 gold, +45 gpt.

11 Horse, 2 Spear and 2 Settlers.

No new Techs.


Rome is miffed at our sailors for some reason. We agree to what he wants, which is us to leave. Then we'll do as we please, thank you.

Flamborough Header worker -> worker in 2.
Bosworth Field vSpear -> vHorse in 3.
Bunker Hill vSpear -> vSpear in 7.


[I] 10 0775 BC

Naval
Curragh01 sails past Paris into Arab waters.
Curragh02 sails past Bangalore.
Curragh03 goes fogbusting 2E.

Units
New vSpear in Bunker Hill moves to 1N of Bosworth Field.
Horse in Bunker Hill moves to the hill N of the city and fortifies.
New vSpear in Bosworth Field moves towards 1NE of Camp Elite.
Horses heal in Camp Elite.
ScoutA W and SW, can enter the homeland next turn.

Workers
Worker NE of Bunker Hill, road and mine done, moves S to road.
Worker SW of Bunker Hill, road completed, moves E to road.
Two workers 2SW of Bunker Hill, irrigate, finish in 2.
Two workers NW of Maxia move 1N to mine the Wines, finish in 3.
New worker in Flamborough Head joins them, mine completes in 2.
Two workers SE of Wolf 359 irrigate, finish in 2.
Two workers 2NW of Camp Elite move NW onto hill, to mine and road.

Cycle Through the Cities
Camp Elite will finish its third settler and will switch to Horses next turn.
Teutoburger Wald vHorse in 5 -> vSpear in 3.
Rush vSpear for 60 of 344 gold.
Teutoburger Wald vSpear in 1 -> vHorse in 2.
Troy vHorse in 7 -> vSpear in 4.
Rush vSpear for 64 of 284 gold.
Troy vSpear in 1 -> vHorse in 3.
Rush the barracks in Lepanto for 36 of 220 gold.

184 gold, +37 gpt.

11 Horse, 4 Spear and 2 Settlers.

No new Techs.


Arabs ask us to leave. We will.

Germany gets Restless
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/SGOTM14-Elite/ts08/T775_GermanyDoWMongols.jpg

Germany (5 known cities) declares war on Mongols (5 known cities).

Camp Elite settler -> vHorse in 4.
Lepanto barracks -> vHorse in 10.

[I] 11 0750 BC

Naval
Curragh01, at the south tip of France, sails counter-clockwise around the island.
Curragh02 sails W to explore more of Korea.
Curragh03 sails E and then SE to see the Aztec coastline.

Units
ScoutA enters Portugal and fortifes NE of Lepanto.
Wake the Horse N of Maxia and send to the Bunker Hill forces.
vSpear arrives NE of Camp Elite and fortifies.
vSpear N of Bosworth Field fortifies.
From Camp Elite, send our eHorse and 1 vHorse to Lepanto.
Fortify the remaining vHorse in Camp Elite.
Settler03, new this turn, moves to N of Bosworth Field.
Settler01 and 02 move 1NE to join the 2 fortified vSpears and they fortify, also.

Workers
Two workers begin to mine a hill between Camp Elite and Teutoburger Wald, finish in 6.
Two workers SE of Bunker Hill road the plain, finish in 2.
Four workers complete the mine N of Bunker Hill, move the roaded plain W of Bunker Hill and irrigate it.
Two workers SE of Lepanto, road and mine finished, move W to road and mine.

Cycle Through the Cities
Hire a taxman in Flamborough Head.
Bosworth Field vHorse in 2 -> vSpear in 1.
Rush vSpear for 40 gold.
Bosworth Field vSpear in 1 -> vHorse in 1.

182 gold, +33 gpt.

11 Horse, 4 Spear and 3 settlers.
2 vHorses complete this IBT.

No new techs.

[IBT]
And the save is >>HERE<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm14/Elite_SG014_BC0750_01.SAV).

Ottoman Border

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a358/Box180295/SGOTM14-Elite/ts08/T750_OttomanBorder.jpg


Iznik, where the Pike is, is on a Hill.

4 vHorses N of Bunker Hill.
2 vSpears and settler N of Bosworth Field.
2 vSpears and two settlers NE of Camp Elite.
4 vHorses SE of Lepanto.
1 eHorse and 1 vHorse inside Lepanto.
1 vHorse in Camp Elite.

New vHorses will be built in Bosworth Field and Teutoburger Wald.

Ottomans are a Monarchy.

Istanbul is built on an Iron Hill.
Their only source of Horses is just across the border from Bosworth Field.

No one knows Feudalism yet.

Military:
03 Settlers
19 Workers
01 Slave
01 Scout
04 Warrior
04 Spears
11 Horses
03 Curraghs

Current units: 45
Allowed units: 11
Support costs: 68 gpt

I thought we would get extorted by the AI for some of our gold. That did not happen.

Nice going.

Looks like we are ready to go this turn or the next one.

Nice work CB. It's never fun when you get that kind of surprise.

I presume we're waiting to research until we get feud?

How about a lineup?
Kulko -
CommandoBob -
Bucephalus - UP
socralynnek on deck
Whomp
Paperbeetle
Rodent -
PrinceMyshkin -

I presume we're waiting to research until we get feud?

We should be able to buy Feudalism, right? Didn't you suggest learning Theology?

I would be tempted to wait and see how the Ottoman war turns out (i.e., do we have a lot of losses) before starting to research again. We may need that gold to cash rush reinforcements.

Goals of the Ottoman War
Are we trying to just expand or are we hoping to contain the Ottomans at this time?

I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I was wondering if we would turn research back on once we trade for feud. We can either keep cash rushing or start researching theo and I see benefits to both.

I think our goal with the Ottomans is to knock them down to a couple remote cities. We want a lot more space.

OK, I got it.

I can play any day this week, but will refrain from doing so until we have decided where we are going with this set.

For example:

Are we ready to go? If so, where are our replacement cities to be? Do we want to bring anyone else into the war? If so, how much are we prepared to pay?

Ok my two cents:

Tech
Save Money while we wait for Feud to pop.
Trade Mon to all useful AIs to send them going on the upper branch.
Research for MIl Trad full speed.
Buy Chiv and Astro when they pop up.

War Start
Waiting probably means 2 more turns before the new builds have reached the frontline.
Starting now means first turns attacks on Bursa and Antietam and then waiting a few turns until all the reinforcements are there before we can take Iznik.

Both options sound reasonable to me so I leave that to the warmongers amongst us.

War Goals
- Take The first three cities.
- Break the counterattack
- Make an informed decision if we want to go on.

I lean in the direction of an all out war against Osman, but we also got big cultural pressure from the russians, so maybe two short wars on the southern front would be more sensible.

Dotmap
I can paint my suggestions on a dotmap later this evening but toi start the discusiion lets put in the following.

Move Antietam and Iznik one spot outwards.
Move Bursa one spot inwards (white spot in the old plan)
Plant one more city near the incense hills.

Alone or Not
I think we want to do this alone. If we bring in an AI they might kill the Ottomans, which we don't want.

Ready to Pull the Trigger?
I'm not sure if we are ready to hit on the Ottomans, mostly because of Japan. They like that Wheat tile NE of Flamborough Head. Maybe I am too cautious, but I would feel better with 3 or 4 vHorses kept near that Wheat tile to remove the Japanese when they arrive. That way we don't have to interrupt the Ottoman war to deal with them.

We have two vHorses that complete this IBT; they could be put on Jap Patrol. As we build more Horses we could alternate where they went: Jap Patrol or Ottoman War. Two more Horses wouldn't take too long and then all the Horses go the Ottoman War.

We have 10 Horses that could attack next turn, which is probably the bare minimum. I would like to have 12, all with full movement, but that is just me. This isn't my normal level, so I'll have to agree with whatever the masters decide. :D

Alliances

I am strongly for allying someone. If we take the full brunt of an DG counterattack we will win, but lose most of our strikeforce in the process. Rebuilding that takes time, meaning we face bigger AIs when we attack next and so on. This all will cost much more then 10 turns.

And we lose these 10 turns only when we play really stupid and let the AI war get out of hand. If we leave the war we either turn onto the Arabs, solving that problem directly or sorrounbd a border town with 5 workkers to create a save haven for Osman to always come back to.

Alliances

I am strongly for allying someone. If we take the full brunt of an DG counterattack we will win, but lose most of our strikeforce in the process. Rebuilding that takes time, meaning we face bigger AIs when we attack next and so on. This all will cost much more then 10 turns.

And we lose these 10 turns only when we play really stupid and let the AI war get out of hand. If we leave the war we either turn onto the Arabs, solving that problem directly or sorrounbd a border town with 5 workkers to create a save haven for Osman to always come back to.

No disrespect, Kulko, but I think you are being waaay to cautious with that assessment.

Osman has eight towns, four of which are stuck firmly in the tundra, and are next to useless to him in terms of producing units or anything else. Of the remaining four 'viable' towns, we will take three of them in the first turn(s) of the war. I'm willing to bet that Osman is screaming for peace after six turns.

The other AIs are little better off; they have slightly better terrain, but even fewer cities. IMO, our best bet will be to implement a strategy of oscilating war - Osman first, then (I would suggest) two or three of the northern Russian towns, quick peace then turn our attention to the Arabs, and so on......

I do not see the need for alliances, they will only tie us in to a war for longer than we need be; I know it's DG, but with the AI on our continent having so few settlements, and not in the best terrain, I believe it will play out no more difficult than an average Emperor game.

The only "fear" I have, is that the Ottos sign someone else into the war and that we get a cascade of civs declaring war on us.

Therefore we might sign someone in. We won't finish off the Ottos anyway, so an extended war is not that big a problem.