While I understand that the Khazad is defensive in nature it would be nice if their siege weapons had some mobility. Either a ranged attack of 2 or a team of oxes that could give the treb's and cannons a second move.

Just get city raider 3, cover 2, formation 2, shock 2, combat 5 and drill 4 phalanxes. And use earthquake to remove their fortification bonus. Takes care of all your problems.

Not sure how this is a useful response, yes pretty much everyone can do this, replace earthquake with enough mobility fire II mages. What he wants is some reason to go with siege weapons for sieging cities over fire II mages(or dwarven druids, etc).

I honestly don't see why it seems unreasonable for a team that should have better siege shouldn't have more mobile siege(or if nothing else, a way to make their experienced siege more mobile). Currently we have the issue that if you want a fast city conquering group, you either need a strong enough group of units to ignore the city defensive bonus(not easy to do in a real game where you are playing at a diff level thats actually challenging), or to run around with mobility + hasted mages to fireball down the defensive bonus(or use the air 2 spell to weaken the defenders enough to negate the defensive bonus).

For the dwarves, or possibly for all siege engines, we could have a promotion to switch between deployed and mobile(with deployed being 1 move, but can bombard/range attack, and mobile being 2 or 3 move, but has to spend a turn switching to deployed before it can bombard/range attack). While it might make sense to force it to have 0 move when deployed, this seems like a nerf of siege, which considering how much weaker they are than than the magic routes to remove defensive bonus. While this is still worse than fire 2 mages(as they can start bombarding from a square away, and can bombard the turn they get there, its at least one possibility for a step in that direction).

The other possibility is to just take away the ability of fireballs to bombard(or greatly reduce the % it does). That doesn't quite get rid of the problem, but just requires you to have more mages, as the opponent rarely has high enough unit strength + first strikes to be able to fight off the fireballs without losing strength, and you can just reduce their strength by suiciding a large number of the fireballs rather than bombarding, but it should at least require a much larger force of mages. At least Air 2 is currently limited if you don't want to play war vs the world where you can't use it in at least some cases without being forced to declare war on 1 or 2 extra enemies.

Khazad cannot get anything higher than adepts btw =P
Siege is their only way to bombard city defences.

lol Phalanxes and High priests are all high tier units... Defenders could just as easily use city garrison crossbowmen to counter.
But on the whole I don't really see this as an issue... Any other civ would have the same problems unless they brought mages/ritualists etc for besieging cities.

There's always the dwarven unique option of damaging the stronger garrisoned units using dwarven shadow collateral.

Not to mention that in FF siege are waaaaaay stronger than they are in FfH, since they can bombard cities to do actual dmg to units.
Acheron becomes a total joke when you take out ~50% of his str with siege bombardment w/o losing a single siege unit.

Ah... haven't played the dwarves enough I see. Silly me. (plus I get all the fireballs I need with golems with the lurchip)

It seems to me that the dwarves really could use a boost to make up for the no mages point though(though I guess we can still abuse magic and go the ritualist route to make up for it, but it doesn't change the fact that siege doesn't compare with mage/priest). Siege units still die to assassins like mage units, they are slower, and less versatile. While I agree that they are better in FF, they are still a much weaker choice in general. I think one of the easiest solution is to give them some way to get more speed. Non-siege units can easily gain 1 speed from haste, plus they always have the option to spend a promotion on mobility past the mid game. One easy solution to either give dwarven adepts or priests(perhaps of only some religions?) a flavor spell that acts as haste for non-alive units(like we have repair now, might be overpowered for golems, so might need to be non-golem non alive units). Another option would just to allow haste to effect the siege units(assume its hasting the men/horses/goats/etc that are actually moving the siege engine around). Finally, I don't see why they shouldn't have access to mobility as a promotion.

Honestly the only thing siege has for it currently is that you get access to it from what are otherwise either really useful techs or at least one off from a really useful tech(esp with the possibly for a windmill/watermill industry economy mid/late game with FF). This really makes me hate dwarves in normal ffh as they don't even have that advantage :).

Mobility has never really been a dwarven trait.... more brute strength really.

One easy solution to either give dwarven adepts or priests(perhaps of only some religions?) a flavor spell that acts as haste for non-alive units

I'm actually pretty much decided that such a spell is going to replace Force I (with the Force Bolt being boosted and becoming Force II, the "Unstoppable" promotion removed - as was suggested a while back). I'm also contemplating altering the Khazad magic line further so that they don't have adepts/mages, but instead have Apprentices and Engineers - each with a few set spells (including Force I, Wall of Stone, Repair and some of the Enchantment spells).

The downside here is that the magic-line becomes even more defunct for the Khazad than it already is (the new units would be tied to construction-related techs). Blocking the line in python isn't really an option as there are other things tied to magic techs (notably immortals and late levels of the Altar).

Mobility has never really been a dwarven trait.... more brute strength really.

I'd accept that if that was true in ffh(all they really get is a little poison resistance), Even the hill bonus to move dies as soon as you add any siege to the stack. On that note, any plans to give dwarven siege that ability perhaps? Also, to make siege in general a little less vulnerable to assassins, what about making them poison immune? considering the fact that the catapult, trebuchet or cannon has to be run by someone, and usually a decent sized team, is there any reason why we can't just give them a race(in this case the dwarven race)? Though, I'd only really argue for one of them, since if you are considering the team that runs the siege engine, then they wouldn't be immune to poison(but if they are dwarves they should at least get the same resistance that normal dwarves get).

I'm actually pretty much decided that such a spell is going to replace Force I (with the Force Bolt being boosted and becoming Force II, the "Unstoppable" promotion removed - as was suggested a while back). I'm also contemplating altering the Khazad magic line further so that they don't have adepts/mages, but instead have Apprentices and Engineers - each with a few set spells (including Force I, Wall of Stone, Repair and some of the Enchantment spells).

The downside here is that the magic-line becomes even more defunct for the Khazad than it already is (the new units would be tied to construction-related techs). Blocking the line in python isn't really an option as there are other things tied to magic techs (notably immortals and late levels of the Altar).


I think that this + the slight boost that dwarven siege get over normal siege will make them viable at least. Good to hear :).

I wonder(in reference to the magic line) if you could perhaps give them a unique unit/building of some sort higher up in the magic tree, not sure what it would be, but perhaps something in the direction of the nullstone golem(aka something that is at least magic resistant, or perhaps a building that gives magic resistance). One interesting mechanic could perhaps be a free 10(or more?)% magic resistance to all units at each of the (adept/mage/archmage) techs?

Dwarven siege are already stronger than their normal counterparts though. However I do find that in FF I hardly use siege as collateral sacrifice anymore since they can ranged bombard--what mattered more is the % cap on bombardment damage. Guess it does help them survive in hostile terrain better though.

I wonder(in reference to the magic line) if you could perhaps give them a unique unit/building of some sort higher up in the magic tree, not sure what it would be, but perhaps something in the direction of the nullstone golem(aka something that is at least magic resistant, or perhaps a building that gives magic resistance). One interesting mechanic could perhaps be a free 10(or more?)% magic resistance to all units at each of the (adept/mage/archmage) techs?

I had a theory of borrowing some flavour from Warhammer Dwarves - and including a "Runesmith" style unit as a potent "anti-mage". A few magical abilities related to his craft (rune-forged armour/weapons) and a substantial magical protection to all units in his stack (probably the equivalent of the magic-resistant promotion for any dwarf unit).

The inherent magic resistance you suggested would also be possible however through the AutoAcquire mechanic - just given UnitClass, Civilization and TechPrereqs.

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That being said - is the magic resistance justified? In Warhammer it definitely would be, but in D&D are Dwarves significantly resistant to magic? More importantly are the Khazad?

I'm not familiar with recent dnd but I do recall they at least used to have higher save vs spells/poison(2nd edition), and higher con, while having lower cha(or dex?). I'm not as familiar with the campaign setting for this, and how it tweaked the Khazad as opposed to generic dwarves.

taking up Kjara's deployed/mobile suggestion...how about if the Khazad had developed a technique of strapping humungous balloons (made of sewn-together pigs bladders) to their siege weapons which - whilst not enough to act like the Kurios Airships - would provide enough lift to raise the equipment of the ground and thus allow it to be pulled along with less resistance?

To deploy the balloon it would use up the equipments movement for the turn, but once deployed the balloon would not only allow quicker movement, but would also allow an attack at the end of a move (ie; theres a bit of pain deploying the balloons, but releasing them can be a matter of an axe). Perhaps deploying balloons could require being in a city?

Khazad have the vault. So that is a possibility for auto-acquiring promotions. So, I suppose you could create a "floating" promotion that gives +1 movement for siege weapons, and is lost upon combat, that is given out by all versions of the vault. Or maybe only when the vaults are full, or whatever. It can get places quickly, but retreats slowly.

Edit: Sorry about the slight derailment, this is less about khazad siege than about the race in general :)

Heres some of the more relevant parts of what http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/races.html says about dwarves
(I believe this is a 3.5 reference):

Of course not all of these need to be implemented
Also, This is just generic dnd dwarves, of which the khazad would be a subclass I would guess?
* are my comments


DWARVES

+2 Constitution, –2 Charisma.
* Not sure how to implement this, would con lead to higher defense for all units, while -cha would be worse relations or worse trading deals?

Dwarf base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations).
* Seems to argue that Dwarves would be better at moving heavy equipment(such as siege equipment) without being slowed down. If we instead assume that its actually animals(goats/horses/etc) that move the siege equipment, this doesn't help at all :). In any case this is probably somewhat reflected in the dwarven hill movement bonus.

Darkvision: Dwarves can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and dwarves can function just fine with no light at all.
Stonecunning: This ability grants a dwarf a +2 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A dwarf who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching, and a dwarf can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can. A dwarf can also intuit depth, sensing his approximate depth underground as naturally as a human can sense which way is up.
* Don't see anyplace these would help, except perhaps in exploring ruins? Wouldn't mind seeing the dwarves get a small bonus to exploring ruins.

Stability: A dwarf gains a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground).
* Not sure how this would be implemented(if at all).

+2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison.
* Already implemented as +25% poison res

+2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects.
* Could justify some sort of starting or gradual magic res.

+1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs and goblinoids.
* Could get +10% vs orcs/goblins?

+4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type. Any time a creature loses its Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class, such as when it’s caught flat-footed, it loses its dodge bonus, too.
* Could be expressed as a small bonus against ogres(if they are even large enough)/dragons?

+2 racial bonus on Appraise checks that are related to stone or metal items.
* Seems like it could be a +1 com for marble/copper/iron/gold/etc resources with mine/quarry?

+2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal.
* Seems to be already in with the dwarven forge

Really getting off topic here, but if we wanted to go with the slower but stronger theme for dwarves, another option would be to run with the fact they are better smiths, and instead of getting copper, iron and mithril promotions, they could get dwarven copper/iron/mithril. One boost could be immunity to rust, and/or the iron and mithril could also give 1 extra point of strength(or even 0/1/2 extra)? Heck could even need a dwarven forge for these, if we wanted to go back to the mechanic of upgrading units in cities with the proper buildings(not 100% why this was removed, could be that the ai did poorly with it?), in this case, you could get normal copper/iron/mithril as you do now, but get the upgrade if in a town with a dwarven forge.

Really getting off topic here, but if we wanted to go with the slower but stronger theme for dwarves, another option would be to run with the fact they are better smiths, and instead of getting copper, iron and mithril promotions, they could get dwarven copper/iron/mithril. One boost could be immunity to rust, and/or the iron and mithril could also give 1 extra point of strength(or even 0/1/2 extra)? Heck could even need a dwarven forge for these, if we wanted to go back to the mechanic of upgrading units in cities with the proper buildings(not 100% why this was removed, could be that the ai did poorly with it?), in this case, you could get normal copper/iron/mithril as you do now, but get the upgrade if in a town with a dwarven forge.

Could be an option - we're actually not that dependent on having only 3 weapon types anymore. Creating "Dwarven Steel" with the prereq of Dwarf, WeaponTier2 and Iron available and making the promotion replace/exclusive to normal Iron would basically give us a dwarf specific weapon type that replaces Iron. It would actually work in the same was as the normal weapon upgrades do now.

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Don't think this is really too "off topic" in anycase - the original title was regarding Khazad Offense even if the original post was concentrating on siege weapons.

a full extra point of strength (or more) seems a bit too strong to me perhaps there could be a similar advantage that Iron gets over Bronze weapons? So perhaps Dwarven Bronze/Iron/Mithril should just give +5% strength on top of other modifiers?

How about giving Dwarven Steel the same strength, but with no weakness vs. Lightning damage and perhaps immunity/a chance to resist the Rust spell?

One last idea with magic line/weapon promotions: If we wanted to give a purpose to the magic line for dwarves, what about giving them extra weapon promotions(enchanted/imbued/etc copper/steel/mithril(or a subset of these) in the magic line?) This could possibly justify what I was saying above(rust immunity and an extra point or 2 of str), while not being too unbalancing as you get enchanted mithril you would need both mithril weapons and the archmage tech. It would also give you a fallback as the dwarves. Don't have iron? Take a trip over to the magic line and grab enchanted copper. The other options people are throwing out mght also work(the +% modifiers). Lastly, could even possibly build the magic resistance into this if we wanted to go that route instead.

You could also leave the weaponry alone and make a parallel set of Armor promotions, which are opened up in a seperate promotion line (doesn't have to be magic, I'd say Priestly if anything). Still using the WeaponTier of the unit to decide if they can use it, and the base resources, but now granting defensive strength and/or immunities. Thus if you have melee and priest lines maxed out, you have Mithril Weapons + Mithril Armor on all of your appropriate units, granting a net +4/+6 with 50% resistance to all damage types and magic (or somesuch)

You could also leave the weaponry alone and make a parallel set of Armor promotions, which are opened up in a seperate promotion line (doesn't have to be magic, I'd say Priestly if anything). Still using the WeaponTier of the unit to decide if they can use it, and the base resources, but now granting defensive strength and/or immunities. Thus if you have melee and priest lines maxed out, you have Mithril Weapons + Mithril Armor on all of your appropriate units, granting a net +4/+6 with 50% resistance to all damage types and magic (or somesuch)

I guess an advantage here is you could have iron weapons and copper armor.

Heck we could build an entire equipment system, with priest giving armor, mage giving rings?(magic resistance or something), recon giving something else, etc :)

and make a parallel set of Armor promotions, which are opened up in a seperate promotion line (doesn't have to be magic, I'd say Priestly if anything).

Could well make it Construction-line, which would tie it nicely to the Khazad, but still makes it an option for any other civ. In some cases crafting a suit of armour is more a feat of Engineering than simply being able to shape metal.

nice ideas about metal armors indeed ;)

If you do add Armor promotions, it would probably make sense to change the weapons promotions to add just/mostly offensive strength while Armor adds just/mostly defensive strength.


Not all Armor has to be distinguished just the metal it is made of. The distinction between chain mail and plate Armor was probably historically more important.


I wonder if we might want to add new or re-add very old techs dealing with Armour. It wasn't the layers of steel that made the Luchuirp armorsmiths so successful, but the intricate articulation that allowed the armor to cover joints and the wearer to move as easily with it as without.--Kersasus Actium, Merchant



I see no reason why Armor should be tied to priests.



In general I don't like making making equipment too common. I do think that an Enchantment III spell that creates random equipment could be cool though.

Could well make it Construction-line, which would tie it nicely to the Khazad, but still makes it an option for any other civ. In some cases crafting a suit of armour is more a feat of Engineering than simply being able to shape metal.

That would be great... Gives any civ a reason to go down that line, but works really well for the Khazad if you replace their mages like in your earlier post.

If you do add Armor promotions, it would probably make sense to change the weapons promotions to add just/mostly offensive strength while Armor adds just/mostly defensive strength.

I disagree. a high defense rating in FFH doesn't mean that the unit has good armor ( i.e. good at receving damage without dying ) , it means that it's good at defending against an attack. think about archers ;)

if anything, better armors could negate enemy metal weapon upgrades ( i.e. if you have bronze armor the enemy does NOT get the benefits of bronze weapons, etc. )

I think that good(heavy) armor, means that the unit can't attack up a hill, but can hold a position well, so that armor could be justifiable as a defense only boost, while good weapons mean that its good at attacking and defending better. Thus I could see armor adding an attack and defense boost for mounted units(think knights in heavy armor), a defense only boost for infantry(consider that they can wear chain mail while holding a position on top of a hill or defending a city, but the units that have to run up to attack them won't want to be wearing any armor, or they will be too tired to fight at the end of the charge). I could also see armor being a defense(aka +%) against archers(at all stages and for all units) and possibly magic at the mithril stage? Another option would be that against things like siege engines, armor doesn't really help if you are hit by the boulder, but it prob helps alot against the collateral damage? Could then model it as defense against that.

Dragons and flurries need to cause collateral damage. How about plating for golems. Sure they cannot make mithril move without Kilmorph's help. But if iron does the moving and mithril is just the icing on the cake?

Mithril plated clockwork golems. :drool: