Help again :(

I've just started a game on Prince/Noble (whichever is highest) with Roosevelt on Continents.
I managed to expand to about 6-7 cities pretty quickly (pre CoL). And found myself on 30% tech. A while later around 1200AD with markets/c-houses/librarys in all cities I can just manage 60% tech with Saladin about 10 techs infront of me (hence I decided to restart).
Here's the question, I think I expanded too quickly and therefore maintainance caught up with me too quickly. Is it normal to be around 40-50% tech while expanding or should I try and keep it up aound 80% before expanding again? Many thanks for advice.

I often go down to 10% or even 0%. You'll be behind for a decent amount of time but good tech whoring will catch you up quickly. Once you're able to raise the slider to the 80% range and you're near the AI in tech nobody will be able to catch you. Is it possible that you're emphasizing hammers over commerce from cottages to much? Also, if you use specialists, it doesn't matter what % goes to research. I often research CoL using only a few scientist specialists from libraries. Currency is also a very good tech.

My last game I was losing 17 :gold: at 0% and ended up winning space in the 1500's. The only reason I stayed afloat for a while was losing wonders on purpose and razing cities.

If you use cottages, manage how fast you expand (pre CoL isn't too descriptive, but 6-7 cities in the BC's isn't unusual on fast speeds, on slow speeds you should have a little more), and use specialists in at least one city for GPP generation, you shouldn't fall too far back (aka not at all on prince). The key here is :) sources and writing. If you have those two things you can get pretty big and get away with it easily.

Some common new-mid level mismanagements of empires is:

Not building enough workers and not using the whip when needed (aka working unimproved tiles).

Building every building everywhere instead of figuring out what is most essential and put everything else aside. Same thing with techs, getting techs in order of cost (this is cheap so I might as well get it first -thinking).

Not utilizing tech trades to an advantage (being aware of diplo hits from trading, getting tradeable techs, trading at the right time to get multiple returns on a tech).

Not specializing cities enough or not playing to the strengths of the active civics enough.

Like mentioned in the OP, overexpanding (or underexpanding).

Nick53,

40% of what? 80% of what?

Here, let me show you a screenshot from a MP game I'm playing with a friend of mine:

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc199/kesshisan/CivIV/BigArmy/BigArmy01.jpg

Here I am running at 0% Science and 100% gold. Would you say I was in trouble?

What if I told you I was the tech leader in the game? What if I told you I was teching faster than anyone else in the game? Would you believe that I could do that at 0% Science?

I can make a 30% Science 70% Gold empire put forth thousandns of beakers per turn in the midevil era. And I can make a 100% Science 0% Gold empire put forth hundres of Beakers in the modern era.

30% of 1400 is greater to 80% of 500. So when you say "30%" and "80%" I don't know what they mean without a frame of reference.

It's perfectably acceptable to expand to a point where your civ is running at 30% Science, in fact I tend to do this every game now. Even if I fall behind, the inevitiable commerce and production boost from my cities once they mature is rewarding.

Though you have careful about expanding down to 0% in a CE. In my opinion, Libraries don't give worthwhile bonuses outside of Representation to justify expanding to 0% more than once in a game. Let me tell you a horror story:

I once expanded to about 15 cities pre currency while running a CE and dropped myself down to 0% and just scraping by. I Cottaged spammed EVERYWHERE. Then I teched Currency, was able to pop myself back up to 20%, and built another 2 cities. Oops, I was back down to 0%. More cities grew, more Cottages mature to Hamlets, a few Hamlets to Villages, and I jumped back up to 20% again. So I teched Code of Laws, built 3 more cities, and my Science plummeted back down to 0% again while I was struggling to get out these Courthouses. I had 2-3 times the land of every other civ, but I was horrible behind in technology, by A LOT! They were founding Taoism and Islam, and building Knights while I was stuck having just learned how to build Courthouses.

My problem was that by that time in the game I had built so many worthless buildings (Libraries.) Sure they give a bonus to beakers, but that's only if I'm actually producing beakers! At 0-30% Science a Library is not helping very much and I would consdier it a waste of hammers. It was my fault, really. If I knew I was going to expand that hard I should have used those hammers to build Workers instead of Libraries.

Had I stopped myself from expanding once I hit 0% once, then gone into recovery mode until my Libraries were worth something (~40%+ Science) I probably would have teched to CoL much quicker, permitting me to expand quicker post CoL.

Anyways, I'm babbling now. Hope you found something in this post helpful. :)

Some common new-mid level mismanagements of empires is:

Not building enough workers and not using the whip when needed (aka working unimproved tiles).

Building every building everywhere instead of figuring out what is most essential and put everything else aside. Same thing with techs, getting techs in order of cost (this is cheap so I might as well get it first -thinking).

Not utilizing tech trades to an advantage (being aware of diplo hits from trading, getting tradeable techs, trading at the right time to get multiple returns on a tech).

Not specializing cities enough or not playing to the strengths of the active civics enough.

Like mentioned in the OP, overexpanding (or underexpanding).

Do you really think it's possible to overexpand if they take care of enough workers/whip usage/cottages? I can't remember the last time I "overexpanded", unless you count massively taking cities but not capturing workers, leading to far cities working unimproved tiles even after whipping ^_^ (Normally I'd just raze, but I wanted fast immortal domination in HoF...forgetting like an idiot I was on a terra map :lol: but it was a 20 minute game so who cares). It was funny though, I killed everyone but 1 city for lincoln, then spammed cities and all my war chariots striked away. I was at - 180 gold per turn hahahaha. On pangaea though I'd have definitely had a BCs domination on a small map :p.

If I have access to any :) at all it seems almost IMPOSSIBLE to sink too far into the red peacefully.

I see under expanding or improperly mismanaging otherwise good expansion mistakes in NC/LHC/elsewgere a lot though (and made them myself).

On immortal, barring extremely favorable starts, I try to settle all the land I can because it won't be there forever, and it's much easier to take down a 6-8 city empire that you boxed in than a 12-14 city one. On lower difficulties, cities take less maintenance and the AIs tech slower, so more economic damage to expansion is acceptable anyway.

I had a whole spiel about managing the economy to put here, but it is just easier to requote Kesshi's post and type QFT at the bottom :D

Don't worry about the science rate or being behind especially in the early to mid game. Worry about improving your lands to the best you can and winning at the end.

Well you can certainly expand faster than your income from working extra cottages/cottage development can cover. Especially when distance becomes a factor.

And markets > libraries at a certain slider ratio (even adjusting for hammer cost). I worked it out at some point.

Hmmmmm, I came across the same conclusion first logically and then in practice (when you're @ 10%, its pretty obvious). Do you remember the cutoff? Obviously if you have fur, ivory, silk, or whale or especially 2+ of those or can trade it weighs the market higher, but even without that at what point is the market superior? I get the feeling it can't be TOO far below 40%, especially if you're planning on further expansion.

Hmmmmm, I came across the same conclusion first logically and then in practice (when you're @ 10%, its pretty obvious). Do you remember the cutoff? Obviously if you have fur, ivory, silk, or whale or especially 2+ of those or can trade it weighs the market higher, but even without that at what point is the market superior? I get the feeling it can't be TOO far below 40%, especially if you're planning on further expansion.

TheMeInTeam,

I don't know the answer, but I think I could figure it out!

(This is for non-creative leaders by the way.)

Libraries are 90 hammers.
Markets are 150 hammers.

Thus a Market costs 1 and 2/3rds more hammers than a Library. Assuming you're running at 0% Culture and 0% Espionage, 60% is 1 and 1/2 times 40%, and 70% is 2 and 1/3rd times 30%.

So at 70% Gold and 30% Science a Market will be more useful, and at 60% Gold and 40% Science a Library will be more useful when adjusted for the hammer difference. So your feeling was correct TheMeInTeam, it isn't 'too below 40%' it's exactly one tic on the slider below it!

This is assuming that you're comparing the maximum return of your commerce based on number of hammers put in. The fact that you can erect a Library quicker, and start getting your bonus to commerce faster has not been factored in here. Neither has the fact that [most of the time] Markets increase your happiness cap in that city.

Well keep in mind that you could overexpand before you get necessary economic techs. But I guess that would be easier achieved on high levels.

There's usually a short-term price to be paid by expanding, sometimes you'd rather have a quick research rate. Overextending also leaves you weaker militarily.

I think perhaps though it's more difficult to overexpand on low and mid levels than on high.. yes definitely.

Well keep in mind that you could overexpand before you get necessary economic techs. But I guess that would be easier achieved on high levels.

There's usually a short-term price to be paid by expanding, sometimes you'd rather have a quick research rate. Overextending also leaves you weaker militarily.

I think perhaps though it's more difficult to overexpand on low and mid levels than on high.. yes definitely.

It's only even possible SOMETIMES on high difficulty though. I bet one would have a hard time doing it on deity pangaea :lol:. Overexpansion from a military standpoint is a whole 'nother can of worms. Having shaka bore into someone else first definitely has merit.