PUBLIC INVESTIGATION
Judge Advocate
Public Investigation Discussion Thread

Investigation of Vice President donsig

Overview

In accordance with the Phoenatican Code of Laws, Section E, Point 5. The Judge Advocate's Office hereby opens investigation into the actions of Vice President donsig related to forum behavior.

The Accusation(s)

Proper request has been filed with this office in a public manner for this investigation.

Among other possible violations, donsig is specifically accused of violating the Code of Laws, Section A, Point 3a:

Code of Laws
A. Citizen Rights
3. Right to Free Speech
a. Citizens may post their comments in forum threads wherever appropriate.

The complaintants contend that during a properly posted and noticed Senatorial poll involving a constitutional change, that Vice President donsig did:

1) Post inappropriate comments for that thread on four occassions.

2) That the initial comments were removed by Shaitan acting as a Mod, after questioning from a governor in their thread.

3) That donsig continued to defy warnings and posted on three additional seperate occassions despite escalated warnings and removals, in clear defiance, and with intent to create a public issue.

Further Clarifications

Shaitan brings this action as a citizen, not a Mod. His reasons for doing so are outlined here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=430443#post430443

Previous rulings have confirmed that certain threads can be limited in participation. See the Judiciary Log here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29890

Finally, the poll thread in question is located here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29516

Proceedure

The Code of Standards, Section H, fully details the responsibilities of all involved with this investigation. My job is to prosecute the case and shepard the process through to fair completion.

I remind all citizens that Phoenatican law is clear on the issue of assumed innocence. donsig is not guilty of any violation until (or if) such time occurs that a majority of citizens vote in a trial.

The requirements of investigation are to follow this process as defined in the CoS:

Point 1 - The allegation was by Shaitan, as a citizen, in the Judiciary Thread.

Point 2 - The allegation was posted in proper format.

Point 3 - In addition to this posting, and one in the Judical thread, I have PM'd the Public Defender, and the Accused to notify them of the charges.

Point 4 - This thread itself satisfies point 4. donsig has been submitted for public investigation in the past, most notably during PI#6.

Point 5 - The first two replies to this thread belong to the public defender and the accused DO NOT REPLY TO THIS THREAD UNTIL DONSIG AND THE PUBLIC DEFENDER HAVE POSTED THEIR RESPONSE

Point 6 & 7 - Once responses are posted, then citizen discussion of the charges is allowed and encouraged. This thread will remain open for 48 hrs, or longer at my descretion should effective discussion continue.

At that point a recommendation will be made, and actions taken based upon the results of the discussion, and other laws applicable.

Judge Advocate

EDIT #1 - added correct link to Judicial Log

I wish to formally enter the following links into evidence for this proceeding. These are all links to council votes that have discussions in them. They show that discussions have been allowed in council/cabinet votes for a long time in Phoenatica. Since there has been little (if any) complaint about this practice previous to this investigation I contend that it is an accepted and appropriate practice of the free speech guaranteed in article A of the Phoenatican constitution.
Section A, point 3 A of our Code of Laws states: Citizens may post their comments in forum threads wherever appropriate.
Therefore I plead not guilty to the charges made in this public investigation.

Section J Council vote (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27243&highlight=cabinet+vote)

Governorship ratification cabinet vote (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24720&highlight=cabinet+vote)

Grey Fox resignation cabinet vote (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22894&highlight=cabinet+vote)

Constitutional changes cabinet vote (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22904&highlight=cabinet+vote)

New constitution cabinet poll (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21920&highlight=cabinet+vote)

Change in the constitution cabinet vote (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21092&highlight=cabinet+vote)

Deputy of exec. dept. cabinet vote (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21178&highlight=cabinet+vote)

Chat turn rules cabinet vote (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20428&highlight=cabinet+vote)

New members of the cabinet cabinet vote (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19984&highlight=cabinet+vote)

Province 10 and 11 appointees council vote (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27887&highlight=council+vote)

Governor of Ameri council vote (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27438&highlight=council+vote)

Council confirmation vote (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26708&highlight=council+vote)

Amendment 1 Council vote (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23753&highlight=council+vote)

Province 6 & 10 borders council vote (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23537&highlight=council+vote)

I reserve the right to add to my defense as the invesigation proceeds.

Among other possible violations, donsig is specifically accused of violating the Code of Laws, Section A, Point 3a:

Code of Laws
A. Citizen Rights
3. Right to Free Speech
a. Citizens may post their comments in forum threads wherever appropriate
Look through the constitution and you'll find nothing to in any way indicate that it is inappropriate for citizens to post within those threads. If you look at the ruling in the Judicial Log (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=433035#post433035) that has been cited as a precedent you will see that the thread that ruling referred to is heavily regulated in the CoS as to what its contents should be. There are no such stipulations where Senate Vote threads are concerned. Indeed, as Donsig has pointed out above, the threads which seem the most reasonable template for a Senate Vote are the Cabinet Vote threads. These have a long history of containing relevant discussion by citizens alongside the individual votes of the cabinet members themselves.

In light of the lack of legislation concerning the format of Senate Votes, and the precedent set by Cabinet Votes, I move to dismiss this investigation due to lack of merit. Failing that I urge the citizenry to acquit Donsig, as he has broken none of the rules of the demogame.

i also reserve my spot to say until you 2 posted your say

My suggestion is that we drop this PI, as it had little to do with the actual game. No punishment would be appropriate in the confines of the demogame. Further discussion of this matter is simply going to clog the forum with heated posts, and further polarize the positions.

If donsig wishes to disagree with Shaitan and I participating in the game, that is his right. However, the poll on this subject clearly shows his view is that of the minority. While this subject is not technically the foundation for this PI, in reality that is what it is about.

I politely and humbly ask donsig to accept that we are going to be moderators of this forum, and that we will participate in the game. Further, I ask that Shaitan and donsig apologize to each other for whatever wrongs the other claims they committed, in the interest of peace.


Finally, and note the color of the text: If you do not blatantly disregard the rules you will not be moderated. If you are moderated, you should abide by the moderators instructions. If you do not agree with the moderation on this forum, you are free to post your objection in the site feedback forum or send a message to one of the other mods or Thunderfall.

Eyrei, as noted in my other post, I too would ask that your solution be implimented.

However, my suggestion of such was rejected in the thread it was proposed in. Therefore, until (or if) the Mods step in and handle this issue, this PI unfortunately will proceed forward.

Judge Advocate Response to the Defendant

Vice President donsig points to various threads in which debate and/or comments occured during past votes.

While Phoenatica did indeed have a long history of allowing certain types of comment in some voting threads, there is precedent for limiting discussion in threads as well, and right to free speech is not absolute.

donsig himself refers to the key phrase in his defense:

Citizens may post their comments in forum threads wherever appropriate.

That donsig's posts were inappropriate was brought to his attention in increasing intensity three different times prior to the final notice resulting in this investigation.

This office supports the right of all citizens to protest and thereby call attention to their cause, as long as the protest is conducted within forum rules and laws of Phoenatica.

donsig's willful disregard for those laws and rules must be addressed and he should be found guilty.

Bill
Judge Advocate

Judge Advocate - Notice to the Public

donsig and the Public Defender has properly reserved space for response. I encourage all to monitor those posts for changes as they continue to compile their evidence.

Discussion Phase

This investigation is now in the discussion phase, which will continue for a minimum of 48 hours (longer if I find good debate still occuring). I will not be making a call for dismissal based upon NO MERIT at this time, and will allow the discussion to fully occur.

All citizens are encouraged to participate in this issue.

I do caution that while I am not a mod (and not likely to ever be one at the rate I am going :D ), I will monitor this thread, and ask for swift punishment from the Mods should any inappropriate posting occur.

Further, remember again that donsig is NOT guilty of anything at this time, and must be treated as such.

Thank you for your professional participation.

Bill
Judge Advocate

Ok debate. :)

Personally, I don't see why this is still going on. The game is over, so any changes really won't effect anything. (no more build queues are being made, no deals are being worked out). I was really thinking that we would be discussing the next game, and not past issues. There are times when even I see a poll, and haven't seen all or any of the discussion. (RL, busy with the game...) It's sort of like those last minute arguements which can sway a vote. Someone might have something to say, and they just thought of it then. I think, as much as we would all like to investigate donsig ;) (a new national sport?), I think this case should be dropped. Citizens do have the right to free speech, even if that means stopping a vote because they realize something seems unfair.

Granted, the constitution is complex, and may take longer than 24-48 hours for us 'mere mortals' ;) to comprehend an article - even to find anything contradictory.

Rebuttal posted above

Judge Advocate Reply

I have read both donsig and Eklekitos' well crafted responses to this issue.

But citizens, keep in mind that this is not a referendum on free speech, which everyone here heartily supports. It is a review of donsig's actions once he was warned against inappropriate posts once....

then he posted again to be warned twice....

then he posted again to be warned a third time....

then he posted for the fourth time in a thread he knew full well was now off limits to him.

Instead of taking action and opening a new thread to plead his case, he intentionally posted again with demonstrated intent to force this matter to confrontation.

The events leading up to this PI are hardly oppressive, in fact, I would argue that the Mod in question showed more leaniency than would be found on any other forum.

donsig's own behavior is at issue here. He has ignored repeated warnings and violated our code of laws. He should be found guilty.

Bill
Judge Advocate

I must agree with the Judge Advocate. Dosig was warned multiple times discussion was inapproitiate in the thread. The Code of Laws specifically says that 'Citizens may post where approitiate.' The senatorial poll was clearly an inapproitiate place.

Originally posted by Bill_in_PDX
But citizens, keep in mind that this is not a referendum on free speech, which everyone here heartily supports. It is a review of donsig's actions once he was warned against inappropriate posts once....
I beg to differ. The issue here is very much one of whether Donsig had the right to freedom of speech in that thread. This:Code of Laws
A. Citizen Rights
3. Right to Free Speech
a. Citizens may post their comments in forum threads wherever appropriate.
is the only law that he is specifically accused of violating, and whether or not he did so is therefore the only matter that you, our citizens, should be considering when considering your verdicts. If he had the right to post in there then the warnings are irrelevant, and the fact that he was warned does not necessarily mean that to post there was constitutionally inappropriate.

I have to agree with the defense. Also, as we, the citizens were not allowed access to Donsig's repeated comments (if they were repititous), we cannot really judge whether they were "inappropriate" or not.

Donsig may be guilty of being a big pain in the arse, but this is not a violation of the Constitution, other-wise AJ would probably be banned by now.

As far as not heeding a Mods warning, he may be guilty of that too. But when weighed against the political contrast and the citizen/Mod status of Shaitan, Donsig may have felt provoked to lengthen attempt to produce some truisms. If he is guilty of this (which is not relevant to this PI) Mod action should be taken. As that has been by-passed to be put forward as this PI, I say Donsig walks, free and clear. (Well, maybe CT should spank him..)

A senatorial vote is hardly the place to air problems with a change, if donsig had a problem he shouldve opened up another thread and encouraged discussion rather than be immature and keep doing what he was doing, cuz thats all it was, was plain old iimmaturish. I agree with Chieftess tho that the game is over and we should just leave it be, but i think we should maybe pass a law that cetain areas cannot be posted in unless your A) council or B) Senate. I dont think free speech was for anyone to disrupt any proceeding. My opinion, and im sorry if its harsh to anyone.

Bah, feeble attempts to express power and prove limited superiority. Donsig did nothing wrong. Chieftess did nothing wrong, the situation it has is a very uncomplicated one...

It should be resolved in single person on person combat. With victor being cleared of all charges, and the defeated party sent to the gallows.

Originally posted by Havok
Bah, feeble attempts to express power and prove limited superiority. Donsig did nothing wrong. Chieftess did nothing wrong, the situation it has is a very uncomplicated one...

It should be resolved in single person on person combat. With victor being cleared of all charges, and the defeated party sent to the gallows.

Well, I've read the code of laws several times and find no where that allows us to sentence folks to duels, though it is tempting...

Oh, and Chieftess is not accussed of anything.

Finally, lets all please stay on a serious track here, the conversation is going well so far. I ask that we keep it that way.

Thanks

Originally posted by eyrei
If donsig wishes to disagree with Shaitan and I participating in the game, that is his right. However, the poll on this subject clearly shows his view is that of the minority. While this subject is not technically the foundation for this PI, in reality that is what it is about.

I politely and humbly ask donsig to accept that we are going to be moderators of this forum, and that we will participate in the game. Further, I ask that Shaitan and donsig apologize to each other for whatever wrongs the other claims they committed, in the interest of peace.


Finally, and note the color of the text: If you do not blatantly disregard the rules you will not be moderated. If you are moderated, you should abide by the moderators instructions. If you do not agree with the moderation on this forum, you are free to post your objection in the site feedback forum or send a message to one of the other mods or Thunderfall.

Yes, I do disagree with moderators being active participants in the demo game. This whole controversy does beautifully illustrate why I feel as I do on this issue. However, that is only a sidebar to the main issue which is the census. (EDIT: This means I did not post in that thread just to get Shaitan to warn me. I posted there as part of the debate over the census change.) I have posted my legal defense in my first post (and would like to thank the Public Defender for his help :) ). Beyond that I would add that I do not think I did anything wrong by originally posting in that thread. That is what I should be judged on in this investigation.

If anyone thinks I should be held accountable for ignoring a mod's warnings then they should take that up with Thunderfall or one of the mods. I never once intended for this investigation to replace whatever actions the forum moderators would take. We are talking about two different sets of rules here and I am more than willing to defend my actions in both venues.

Since eyrei and Shaitan are now mods who want to actively participate in the demo game we must all be aware of their dual roles and be cognizant of which rules each role can enforce. in my view, mods enforce forum rules not demogame rules. Demogame rules are enforced by our citizens through our constitution, CoL, CoS and Judicial Dept. It is well that this issue hinges on the right of free speech, for our constitution guarantees it while the forum rules do not.

Originally posted by Cyc
Donsig may be guilty of being a big pain in the arse, but this is not a violation of the Constitution, other-wise AJ would probably be banned by now.


And let us not make it unconstitutional. ;)

BTW, I would like to offer my apologies to Shaitan and everyone else for being a pain. :)

(Note: My legal council has advised me to explicitly state that the above apology is in no way an admission of guilt on my part. :D)

Originally posted by donsig



Since eyrei and Shaitan are now mods who want to actively participate in the demo game we must all be aware of their dual roles and be cognizant of which rules each role can enforce. in my view, mods enforce forum rules not demogame rules. Demogame rules are enforced by our citizens through our constitution, CoL, CoS and Judicial Dept. It is well that this issue hinges on the right of free speech, for our constitution guarantees it while the forum rules do not.

I actually was intending to start a discussion on this very subject. Because Shaitan and I obviously spend a lot more time on this forum than Duke does, it is possible for us to the enforce the demogame rules as well as forum rules. However, I do not necessarily think this is a good idea. We do seem to all enjoy a good PI.:lol: This is a topic for another thread.

I would like to congratulate the justice department, as this investigation is being conducted in a very pleasing manner.

~All of this is only my opinion~

I purposely tried to stay out of 'enforcing' the demo games rules because that is up to the players. I only stepped into discussions where it seemed necessary to keep the game moving (and to keep people from killing each other).

If donsig did not listen to a Mods warning about the forum rules, then it is up to the Mod to handle it.

If donsig did not listen to a Mods warning about the games rules, then it is up to the Game to handle it.

Whether or not the Mods should enforce to Game rules, is something that should be open for discussion. I had not done it because I wanted to let the people play the game. That way they can see and deal with the ramifications of their choices in the game.

Originally posted by Duke of Marlbrough

If donsig did not listen to a Mods warning about the forum rules, then it is up to the Mod to handle it.

If donsig did not listen to a Mods warning about the games rules, then it is up to the Game to handle it.

Whether or not the Mods should enforce to Game rules, is something that should be open for discussion. I had not done it because I wanted to let the people play the game. That way they can see and deal with the ramifications of their choices in the game.

And that is the key point here....this is a cross over situation, as donsig may have violated game rules but was subject to Mod enforcement, that later was submitted for game enforcement.

I am very much a reluctant (but persistent) prosecutor in this case for reasons noted in a different thread, but this is the main point, as I feel uneasy prosecuting someone for what stemmed from Moderator action.

I know both parties don't mind the discussion itself going on, and therefore I will keep the PI open. However, CT, it would be greatly appreciated if your nominee for Chief Justice is in place soon.

Bill
Judge Advocate

Judge Advocate - Process Notification

This discussion thread can be ended at anytime after 48 hours have passed.

I ask all citizens, with interest in the matter, to post their views on if this matter should be brought to a TRIAL POLL. This will satisfy the conditions of Point 6.

The Judge Advocates office continues to reserve the right to call for a judiciary dismissal vote in this matter.

Bill
Judge Advocate

i second donsigs request-posting in the forum. none of our subforums should be totally closed to citizen input. he had a clear point when asking for opinion.
i also second shaitans removal of the post. he had to enforce the existing rules.
what i can not second is donsigs persiting posting though he was warned many times...
hard to rule this one. but as we are at the time after the game a pi would be senseless anyways.

Originally posted by Cyc
Donsig may be guilty of being a big pain in the arse, but this is not a violation of the Constitution, other-wise AJ would probably be banned by now.


Hey, what did I do? Maybe I don't want an answer to that...

Regardless, as I have stated in some other threads, Donsig has breached BOTH the forum rules and the demogame rules, not to mention using a total lack of common sence, being a pain in the arse and giving the game a tone that it did not need. We are doing him a MASSIVE favour by keeping this as an in-house issue. Were it taken to TF, as has been sugested, I doubt that Donsig would be treated in the leneant way that we are now (ie getting a trial and a defence and being judged by his friends) and would definately end up with a harsher penalty.

Shaitan acted as a mod to enforce demogame rules. If he had not, and Donsig had continued to post, we would have had to request Shaitan or eyeri do it anyway. Donsig knew, or ought to have known, that his initial postings were not appropriate. Even if this was not the case, after being told by multiple people to desist on occations amounting to 3 warnings, he had sufficiant time to stop and continue the discussion elsewhere.

All sympathy for Donsig must evaporate if, like me, you are aware of the original content of the posts, which was basically just a thinly veiled accusation that the senators did not understand the law or no what they were doing, and a DEMAND that they explain themselves when there was clearly no need to do so.

Though it may be the game is finished, we are still making important decitions to shape our law for the next game. It is important that the integrity of our law is upheld.
Donsig must be found guilty.

Oh, darn. I guess we're going to have to PI Chieftess and EA from the Foreign Affairs Office now, too. I had to edit this post as originally I thought Octavian X had part of that conversation.

As always, I remain completely confused :D

My position still has not changed. Donsig clearly violated the Code of Laws. His post were in a place that was inapproitiate.

As for the accused breech in forum rules, that matter probably shouldn't be discussed. All complaints, I believe, should be taken up with a mod, or Thunderfall. I can't legally enforce that, not at least yet :mwaha:

Just to clarify Octavian X, I was referring to CT's Council Vote to get you approved. Now I'm going to have to PI myself too.

I believe Eyrei posted in the Council Vote thread too... should he have "moderator action"-ed himself as soon as he posted? :rolleyes:

On a more serious note, no one is constitutionally required to be nice to the senate, or to the council, or to anyone whatsoever. The content of his posts is not relevant to this investigation, only whether it was constitutionally inappropriate for him to post in the Senate Vote thread.

Originally posted by Eklektikos
On a more serious note, no one is constitutionally required to be nice to the senate, or to the council, or to anyone whatsoever. The content of his posts is not relevant to this investigation, only whether it was constitutionally inappropriate for him to post in the Senate Vote thread.

What I was illustrating goes directly to that issue. Not only was the very fact that he posted in the thread (and continued to do so until the thread had to be closed) but that the very content of the posts was innapropriate to the thread in which it was being posted. It was not a thread for discussions and allegations, but one for voting only. We would not need quite as many rules as we do now if we could believe people like Donsig could show some respect for other citizens and post 'appropriately'.

[remove JA hat]

Eklektikos has made a key point that should be discussed as it has reaching implications beyond even this PI.

That being, what prevents a citizen from posting in a voting thread? Does the right of free speech override an implied restriction on posts in a voting thread?

What then of the precedent already set in other voting threads where no one was PI'd for violating the implied rule?

[/remove JA hat]

Bill

When I suggested we were doing him a favour by not turning this into a mod issue, Donsig invited me to take the matter to TF...
I asked TF what would happen if someone had done what Donsig had done and someone reported them. TF said that the likely ban would be one week and that it was 'a big nono' in ANY forum to ignore a moderator.

It didn't 'dob in' Donsig, I asked the question in hypotheticals, because I still think this can be resolved by us. But it does illustrate that the very act of a trial and a defender, etc. and the move to prosecute under phoenatican law and not forum rules should be viewed as positive by Donsig.

Now I am going to bed to let the debate rage on while I sleep in blissful ignorance.

bill has a big point here. the rules state clearly that the constitution overrides the other books. the rule of free speach is in the constitution, so the other rule is invalid!
great work discovering that flaw, bill!
it fits in the line with the "should" cases.... and also poll-restrictions (yes, this constitutional paragraph also implies i can post a informational poll just as i like as expresion of my free will!).

Looking at what Bill said earlier, I believe that this should be brought to a trial poll.

Now, to respond to disorganizer...
Originally posted by disorganizer
bill has a big point here. the rules state clearly that the constitution overrides the other books. the rule of free speach is in the constitution, so the other rule is invalid!

The way I see it, the Code of Laws is not conflicting with Article A of the constitution. The CoL simply better defines what 'free speech' is, and it's restrictions.

But i think this definitely shows what pits we fall into. Our ruleset needs to be defined better and clearer.

That's what the judiciary is here for. To define the laws of our nation.

[chief justice hat]
Now, we're off topic. I request that futher discussion in this thread be on the PI of donsig. Other subjects should be discussed in other areas.
[/chief justice hat]

last comment:
no. judicacy is for enforcing law, legislative for defining it :-P
end of last comment.
who puts this pi up for a poll?
should i do it :-P then it will propably be invalid be defintion...

Originally posted by Eklektikos
I believe Eyrei posted in the Council Vote thread too... should he have "moderator action"-ed himself as soon as he posted? :rolleyes:



Well, I wanted to make it clear to the deputies that they could vote there if their leader did not show within a certain time, so that we could get the matter resolved. It had not political purpose whatsoever, and was rather simply an attempt to facilitate the process, which seemed to have halted.

Judge Advocate

It is my responsibility and call as to when to post a trial poll. I will post that poll in accordance with Point 7 of CoS Section H.

The standard is straight forward. If there is overwhelming sentiment for dismissal, I will submit a vote of NO MERIT among the Judiciary members.

I will be posting that poll shortly, as it is clear that there is not overwhelming support for dismissal.

Judge Advocate.

Judge Advocate - Final Notes

I put my hat back on and say:

The discussion has been overall very respectable, and I appreciate the outstanding efforts of our Public Defender to provide a vigorous defense.

I also have great respect for the manner in which donsig has behaved during this time, and it brings great credit upon himself and our nation.

However, while there are many constitutional issues to ponder down the road, we do need to focus this PI on the actions of donsig himself.

One point you all should keep in mind is that free speech is not absolute, and one of the biggest impacts on it is the equal rights of others.

The Senators have a right to post their votes in their thread without harrassment. donsig's rights do not necessarily override theirs...or yours for that matter. Think of the precedent that would set.

I am a great fan of donsig myself, but I caution you all not to turn this into a question of "did donsig have his rights violated?" but rather stay focused on the real issue at hand:

Did donsig's actions violate the rights of the Senators?

I believe the answer is YES, and therefore you should vote to convict.

NON-BINDING REQUEST TO ALL - We are moving to the voting phase, I ask that you leave the next two responses for donsig and the Public Defender, thank you for your cooperation.

Judge Advocate

The official verdict poll is posted here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30099

Public Defender's Closing Remarks.

Did Donsig's actions violate the rights of the Senators?

No. They didn't.

His actions did not hamper the Senate in their voting, and nowhere have I seen written down in the constitution any article, law or standard which defines Senate Vote threads as exclusively containing vote-posts. Nor have I seen anything in the constitution prohibiting the asking of searching questions.

Sure, the content of Donsig's posts was indeed confrontational, but that is wholely irrelevant to this investigation, since the law he is accused of violating relates only to his right to post in the thread and not to what he may post. Equally, anything concerning defiance of Moderation is purely a matter for the Moderators, is not covered by the constitution, and as such is not relevant to this investigation.

Whatever you think of Donsig's motives for posting in the thread and whatever you might think of what he posted, I ask you to leave those judgements to one side for the duration of this investigation. There is a proper time for punishing people for being a pain - it's called "election time". And let's face it: all Donsig is truly guilty of is annoying a group of elected officials with impertinent questions. That's how all this started and the day I see a law against that written into the constitution will be the day I leave the demogame.

Donsig is guilty of no violation of any article, law or standard within the Constitution, and I hope that you can all see that fact and will vote accordingly.

~Eklektikos
Public Defender.

hmmm. isnt that taking partial influence on the active poll?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Eklektikos
And let's face it: all Donsig is truly guilty of is annoying a group of elected officials with impertinent questions.
QUOTE]

That may be but personally if he had questions or doubts then he should have brought them up in a proper thread. Instead he brought them up in a SENATE ONLY poll to a change in the laws. I dont remember Donsig being elected as a governor this term, nope that was last term. If he had problems he should have opened up a new thread or PM'd each Senator to discuss his ideas on why the change is bad, but he didnt. Then he went against a mod by continuously disregarding what the mod was saying to him. Personally i say he is lucky he is getting this PI instead of being banned which im sure happens to people who do not obey the forum rules.

Okay said my piece. If Donsig would apologize for not thinking clearly and going half cocked into this, im sure this whole thing wouldnt have to continue and we go on and talk about the start of the Game of Democracy II.

P.S. I apologize to anyone that this statement offends :)

originally posted by FionnMcCumhall
That may be but personally if he had questions or doubts then he should have brought them up in a proper thread. Instead he brought them up in a SENATE ONLY poll to a change in the laws
While the voting is for the Senate only, the content of the thread is not explicitly specified in the Constitution. If Donsig had been attempting to vote in the thread then that would have been a violation (as well as laughably pointless). Non-vote posts by citizens have been allowed in this type of vote thread for as long as I have been in the demogame (which is since the beginning of term 2, I believe), and so I do not see that they would suddenly become an offence now.

It is my hope that the citizens of Phoenatica will be able to put aside their feelings about me and concentrate on the issue at hand when voting in the trial poll. Do not vote for donsig or against donsig. Vote for free speech not against free speech. Vote to make our elected officials answerable to the citizens of Phoenatica. Do not make it easier for our senators and leaders hide behind their own silence. There may well come a day when you want to hear why an official is voting in a particular way. Do not let this public investigation and trial hamper your ability to get answers in the future. Reaffirm our constitutional right to free speech!

My initial post in the vote thread was a call for Senators the explain why they voted for a constitutional amendment. Posting by citizens in cabinet/council votes has been an on going phenomenon in Phoenatica's history and I saw nothing wrong with doing so. My post was removed by a mod and I felt that was inappropriate. My reaction was one of civil disobediaence by reposting. The reposting is not on trial here. That is an issue for Thunderfall and the mods to handle. As I said earlier, I do not intend for this public investigation to be a substitute for any mod actions. The purpose of this PI is to determine if any Phoenatican laws have been broken. This PI is not about breaking forum rules. Whether forum rules were broken will be determined by the appropriate authorities.

This PI is about whether it is appropriate (and therefore constitutional) for citizens to post comments and inquiries in senate or council vote threads.

Judge Advocate

Thank you to all for posting your comments during this discussion phase. As noted previously the vote is being held here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30099

The vote will continue until August 21, at 1516 GMT.

Should donsig be found guilty, a new thread will be opened by me for the penalty/sentencing phase. The laws governing a sentencing are covered in Code of Standards, Section H, Point 8.

Judge Advocate