We're currently working on a set of fairly substantial changes to the way experience works in Fall Further. The following describes the effects of those changes.

=====

Decimal Experience
Units will now be able to gain fractions of an XP (upto 2 decimal places).

Passive Training
No longer will the warmongers get all the glory - builder civs may construct buildings that allow their units to gain experience slowly over time. Some buildings will increase the rate experience is gained, others will raise the maximum experience that can be reached.

Using the current formula and the basic "10 XP Cap" building with no speed increase, you'll be looking at around 30 turns to gain 5 experience, and 110 turns to gain 10 experience (levels 3 and 4 respectively). Combat is still by far the best way to level troops in a hurry, but the passive civ which builds a couple of archers at the start of the game will find that they have a few promotions by the time Daracaat comes knocking.

For reference, passive leveling to level 5 would take 306 turns and to level 6 would take 702 turns - and each would require several additional buildings to raise the cap that high. It is not a system designed to produce high level units, just give peaceful civs a few levels to help hold off the hordes.

Barbarian/Animal Limit
Barbarians and Animals will lose the 100XP cap. The main reason this is needed is that the XP gained from combat is rounded up to the next whole XP, which means you'll always gain at least 1XP per combat. With decimal experience, high level units will find that fighting >99% battles against simple barbarians may earn them less than 1XP. After a certain point, it naturally becomes "not worth their time" rather than there being an arbitrary hard-limit. After all - what sort of Hero spends their whole life killing goblins when there are Dragons to slay?

Workers/Casters
Workers and casters will be switched over to a similar system to the passive training, with fixed gains per turn rather than the current random gains. This allows for better planning of strategy, as you know that your adept will be due to upgrade to a mage in X turns time...

Hero Promotion
It will now be possible to have "lesser heroes" - some units that have not qualified for a full hero promotion in the past may be able to gain 0.25 XP per turn rather than the more impressive 1XP that a standard hero might. Likewise, some of the less heroic-hero's may find themselves demoted to a "Champion" level unit. Equally - it's possible that certain super-beings (Hyborem, Basium) may be capable of gaining 1.5 or more XP per turn...

Game Speed Scaling
All of these changes will scale according to game speed, including Hero XP which didn't previously. A quick Hero may find they gain 1.33 XP per turn, whilst a Marathon Hero may only be gaining fractions of an experience point each turn.

====

We're looking for feedback on any of the above. Passive Experience gain is something that I suspect there will be some fairly strong opinions about, but efforts have been made to ensure that it does not outshine combat for creating strong units - just provides some security for those who prefer to build peacefully, without the normal need for very large stacks of maintenance hungry level 1 troops.

We're currently working on a set of fairly substantial changes to the way experience works in Fall Further. The following describes the effects of those changes.

=====

Decimal Experience
Units will now be able to gain fractions of an XP (upto 2 decimal places).

Passive Training
No longer will the warmongers get all the glory - builder civs may construct buildings that allow their units to gain experience slowly over time. Some buildings will increase the rate experience is gained, others will raise the maximum experience that can be reached.

Using the current formula and the basic "10 XP Cap" building with no speed increase, you'll be looking at around 30 turns to gain 5 experience, and 110 turns to gain 10 experience (levels 3 and 4 respectively). Combat is still by far the best way to level troops in a hurry, but the passive civ which builds a couple of archers at the start of the game will find that they have a few promotions by the time Daracaat comes knocking.

For reference, passive leveling to level 5 would take 306 turns and to level 6 would take 702 turns - and each would require several additional buildings to raise the cap that high. It is not a system designed to produce high level units, just give peaceful civs a few levels to help hold off the hordes.

I love you. As much as I try to be warlike from time to time, I always end up building a massive empire instead.... Having defenders gain a few promotions overtime is awesome.

Barbarian/Animal Limit
Barbarians and Animals will lose the 100XP cap. The main reason this is needed is that the XP gained from combat is rounded up to the next whole XP, which means you'll always gain at least 1XP per combat. With decimal experience, high level units will find that fighting >99% battles against simple barbarians may earn them less than 1XP. After a certain point, it naturally becomes "not worth their time" rather than there being an arbitrary hard-limit. After all - what sort of Hero spends their whole life killing goblins when there are Dragons to slay?

Workers/Casters
Workers and casters will be switched over to a similar system to the passive training, with fixed gains per turn rather than the current random gains. This allows for better planning of strategy, as you know that your adept will be due to upgrade to a mage in X turns time...

Again, amazing. Lets you plan much more definitively, whether a plan of attack with your mage stack of doom or if you'll have time to grab that defense promo for your worker before the barb unit gets to it.

Hero Promotion
It will now be possible to have "lesser heroes" - some units that have not qualified for a full hero promotion in the past may be able to gain 0.25 XP per turn rather than the more impressive 1XP that a standard hero might. Likewise, some of the less heroic-hero's may find themselves demoted to a "Champion" level unit. Equally - it's possible that certain super-beings (Hyborem, Basium) may be capable of gaining 1.5 or more XP per turn...

I'm thinking Lucian would be perfect for that...

The Passive Experience gain sounds like something I tried in my original modmod (or maybe just after the version I actually released), but eventually cut since I figured the python I was using was a bit awkward and probably slowing the game down with so many random number generations, and because I wasn't sure if it was actually working.


I like decimal experience in snarko's options mod, although not enough to try to copy it in mine. I like that it has been added though.

I always eliminate/greatly raise the barb/animal cap, so I agree with that too.


I'm not sure I like the change in worker/caster xp. Some randomness is good. I think I'd rather leave it as is, but also make certain buildings (The Towers of Divination/Alteration/Elements/Necromancy/Mastery, Cave of the Ancestors, etc.) give xp the new way.


I'm not quite sure what you are saying about the Hero Promotion. Do you mean that promotions can now have a decimal amount of xp instead of always giving 1 like the current hero promotion does?

I'm not quite sure what you are saying about the Hero Promotion. Do you mean that promotions can now have a decimal amount of xp instead of always giving 1 like the current hero promotion does?

That's the plan. Also allows for the Hero promotion to be scaled by gamespeed.

Are there any plans for an option to disable worker experience?

If I want a faster worker, I'll group two or more together. If I want a defending worker, I'll group them with a combat unit.

I don't need regular interruptions of my build orders.

Are there any plans for an option to disable worker experience?

If I want a faster worker, I'll group two or more together. If I want a defending worker, I'll group them with a combat unit.

I don't need regular interruptions of my build orders.

Was already announced in another thread...

Also added documentation of the 2 new game options, Civ Selector (not really a gameoption technically), and an option to disable automatic gain of Worker XP (they still have a unitcombat and can gain promotions, but it is nearly impossible for that to happen, would need spirit guide to hit a worker, or to choose to give a worker some equipment and go hunting with it)

Are there any plans for an option to disable worker experience?

If I want a faster worker, I'll group two or more together. If I want a defending worker, I'll group them with a combat unit.

I don't need regular interruptions of my build orders.

Was already announced in another thread...

Thanks - I've added it to the change log now too - forgot to do so earlier.

Had to hunt for the quote, actually... Knew I had seen it, couldn't remember where.

Does passive experience apply to all units, or can you set it up the rates and caps idependantly for different unitcombats? It seems to me like archers should benefit from archery ranges while swordsmen don't. Some buildings might apply to multiple unitcombats, possibly at different rates.

Does passive experience apply to all units, or can you set it up the rates and caps idependantly for different unitcombats? It seems to me like archers should benefit from archery ranges while swordsmen don't. Some buildings might apply to multiple unitcombats, possibly at different rates.

I hope so... Would allow you to specialize your army, and would require more effort to grant xp to all units.

Does passive experience apply to all units, or can you set it up the rates and caps idependantly for different unitcombats? It seems to me like archers should benefit from archery ranges while swordsmen don't. Some buildings might apply to multiple unitcombats, possibly at different rates.

I hope so... Would allow you to specialize your army, and would require more effort to grant xp to all units.

By UnitCombat, with as many UnitCombats defined per building as you like, and XP Cap/GainRate modifiers defined per UnitCombat.

Does passive experience apply to all units, or can you set it up the rates and caps idependantly for different unitcombats? It seems to me like archers should benefit from archery ranges while swordsmen don't. Some buildings might apply to multiple unitcombats, possibly at different rates.

I hope so... Would allow you to specialize your army, and would require more effort to grant xp to all units.

By UnitCombat, with as many UnitCombats defined per building as you like, and XP Cap/GainRate modifiers defined per UnitCombat.

Archery Ranges, Training Yards and Hunting Lodges are considered the "basic training structures" with an XP cap of 10 for their respective UnitCombat. This means that troops will be able to gain some experience in the cities that can produce them (Warriors/Scouts will be out-dated when their training structure arrives) - but you won't benefit by just sending the troops off from the capital to defend some front line outpost unless the frontline city is also developed enough to have a training yard etc.

Frontline cities tend to see enough combat with barbarians to negate the need for passive XP in the early game anyway.

Awesome... Any plans to include a building that increases xp gain rate for workers? Say.... something like Core of the Subtle? ;)

Awesome... Any plans to include a building that increases xp gain rate for workers? Say.... something like Core of the Subtle? ;)

There wasn't, but I do have a soft spot for the "removed content" :D

nice ideas! any plan to include snarko's better AI diplomacy? (i.e. AIs making demands etc. from all civs instead than just the human player )

By UnitCombat, with as many UnitCombats defined per building as you like, and XP Cap/GainRate modifiers defined per UnitCombat.

Archery Ranges, Training Yards and Hunting Lodges are considered the "basic training structures" with an XP cap of 10 for their respective UnitCombat. This means that troops will be able to gain some experience in the cities that can produce them (Warriors/Scouts will be out-dated when their training structure arrives) - but you won't benefit by just sending the troops off from the capital to defend some front line outpost unless the frontline city is also developed enough to have a training yard etc.

Frontline cities tend to see enough combat with barbarians to negate the need for passive XP in the early game anyway.

Nice, just what I wanted.


Hmm...would it be too much to allow specific units of different unitcombats to get the bonuses too? Logically it seems like Horsearchers should be able to train in archery ranges too.




I was thinking it would make sense for the Guild of Hammers (Or Endeavors as I prefer to call it) to increase worker xp gain, but I wouldn't mind the Core of the Subtle have the effect too.






I never really noticed a difference with Snarko's AI diplomacy changes, but I would really like you to allow larger permanent alliances like he did.

Looks good - I was a little uneasy about some of the changes but was reassured by the qualifiers. Sounds like it'll make xp gain considerably more interesting and flexible without leading to exultant new "pawnage in 100 turns" threads in the strategy forum. :)

Passive xp gain, by effectively raising the unit level floor, should soften the effect of FFH2's double-potency promotions - I like that.

I also look forward to the xp building buildings. Might be some very interesting decisions/trade offs there, assuming the buildings are pricey enough that an active warmonger will often chose to build more units instead.

Perosnally I love all the ideas. The diminishing returns, but SOME returns off Barbs is something I have wished for, for a while now.

Passive exp over time and partial points all look great.

For the most part, I love the changes. However, I'm not so hot for the fixed gains for casters and workers. I liked the random aspect as it allowed the system to give different units different aspects and qualities. That mage that upgrades every turn represents a mage with true talent and the blood of great casters running through his veins and the adept who is stuck at 5 xp for 50 turns is just not talented in the least. The same applies to the workers. Having a predictable caster upgrade time seems very artificial and plays heavily to a rigid and stiff playstyle.

Other than that, I like the rewards for builders and the decimal XP. The cap being removed would concern me but since a unit would only get .2-.5 xp a battle it isn't so bad. :)

sounds like an excelent mechanic! cant wait to try it out :p

Interesting, I am mostly optimistic. I can't say much until I try it out. ;)

Just please try to keep the XML as back-wards compatible as possible.

Just please try to keep the XML as back-wards compatible as possible.

All new tags should be optional as usual - you will only need to include them if you want to use them (we hate having to update all the old XML as much as you do :D).

I love these ideas too!

Especially removing the cap on killing barb units. I'm wondering if FF will have the current targeting AI for barbs that .43 FFH has.

Has there been any thought on how this will affect civs with the Barbarian or Charismatic traits?

Also, consideration might be given towards making promotions (especially the higher ones) cost more XP than now.

Again, some very good ideas, Vehem!:goodjob:

Sounds interesting, look forward to seeing it in play!

One thing that I also like is the idea of, well, some sort of "lesser" hero. I like unique names, histories, odd little strengths/weaknesses, not sure in what form the "lesser" will take, but I'd wondered more than once whether instead of a hero promo that gave up to 100 free XP, if some watered down one might top out at 50. Or 30 or 80 or whatever!

Still would take a lot of creativity to give every civ another mini-hero! Lucian though might qualify. Some other current heroes might even become mini-heroes, like Loki (who gains no XP anyhow and whose worth is low after the early game), maybe poor Rantine as well (a pseudo axeman running around in the midgame is just sad!)

Anyhow, how it all rolls out, I'll be interested to see!

All new tags should be optional as usual - you will only need to include them if you want to use them (we hate having to update all the old XML as much as you do :D).

:bowdown:

I am much grateful.. :)

An option to consider (if you haven't already). You could accomplish the same effect without resorting to decimals by multiplying the xp required per level by 100, and the things that currently gift xp by 100.

Either way accomplishes the same goal so it all depends on which is a cleaner presentation. The advantage of decimal is it allows people to stay with the level progressions they are used to (so they know that 2 xp gives them a new level). While the non-decimal system is more standard for RPG's (who use it for exactly the reason you describe, so they can be more granular with xp awards).

Yeah. The numbers needed to advance levels in Baldur's Gate 2 got pretty impressive (300 000), until you see the amount of experience some kills and quests give (I solo that game).

An option to consider (if you haven't already). You could accomplish the same effect without resorting to decimals by multiplying the xp required per level by 100, and the things that currently gift xp by 100.

Either way accomplishes the same goal so it all depends on which is a cleaner presentation. The advantage of decimal is it allows people to stay with the level progressions they are used to (so they know that 2 xp gives them a new level). While the non-decimal system is more standard for RPG's (who use it for exactly the reason you describe, so they can be more granular with xp awards).

We'd thought about it briefly and have been back and forth a little about which way to go. I don't think we'd considered the fact that RPGs do tend to use those sorts of numbers however, which may actually make it more accessible to players (initially decided that decimals were clearer than big numbers).

Yeah. The numbers needed to advance levels in Baldur's Gate 2 got pretty impressive (300 000), until you see the amount of experience some kills and quests give (I solo that game).

So did I once :) Dwarven Fighter with Simulacrum (so technically there are two of him). Soloing (duoing?) Demogorgon took a while though...

I have been thinking more and more about all of this.

Decimal Experience
Units will now be able to gain fractions of an XP (upto 2 decimal places).
Decimal vs larger numbers

To me its a wash 6 of 1, half dozen of the other. However... whole numbers will save you a charator by having no decimal point to display.


Passive Training
No longer will the warmongers get all the glory - builder civs may construct buildings that allow their units to gain experience slowly over time. Some buildings will increase the rate experience is gained, others will raise the maximum experience that can be reached.

Using the current formula and the basic "10 XP Cap" building with no speed increase, you'll be looking at around 30 turns to gain 5 experience, and 110 turns to gain 10 experience (levels 3 and 4 respectively).


So to over simplify here...



Archery Range
+.1 exp per turn for all Archery Units currently in that town. Max 10 XP

Bowyer
+.1 exp per Turn for all Archery Units currently in that town. Max 25 XP


So a New Archer Is created on turn 1 in a city with both buildings listed above and starts with +2 XP from a Civic and 2 XP from a Wonder

Turn 1 - 4 xp (Creation)
Turn 2 - 4.2 xp (.1 from Archery Range + .1 from Bowyer)
Turn 3 - 4.4 xp (.1 from Archery Range + .1 from Bowyer)
Turn 4 - 4.6 xp (.1 from Archery Range + .1 from Bowyer)
... ... ...
Turn 28 - 9.4 xp (.1 from Archery Range + .1 from Bowyer)
Turn 29 - 9.6 xp (.1 from Archery Range + .1 from Bowyer)
Turn 30 - 9.8 xp (.1 from Archery Range + .1 from Bowyer)
Turn 31 - 10.0 xp (.1 from Bowyer)
Turn 32 - 10.1 xp (.1 from Bowyer)
Turn 33 - 10.2 xp (.1 from Bowyer)
Turn 34 - 10.3 xp (.1 from Bowyer)

(other than specific numbers) how far off am I from what you are thinking?


Edit: Forgot to ask...

Will Hero Auto XP still Cap? Will different Heros Cap thier Auto gain at different Levels?

There is a more complicated (barely) formula used for gaining XP. It is not a flat rate, but rather a decay function. So at the higher levels not only do you need more XP for each level, but you also gain free XP slower.

Also, buildings set the cap for a city, having a really high cap doesn't mean you grow any faster at the lower levels. But other buildings will be capable of improving growth rate, though once you hit the cap growth rate doesn't mean anything.

As a compromise for workers/adepts etc, could always grant, say, 0.25+x per turn, where x is random between 0 and .75 (or something like that) - so the expected value over a given number of turns would be the same as it is now, but the variance would be smaller.

There is a more complicated (barely) formula used for gaining XP. It is not a flat rate, but rather a decay function. So at the higher levels not only do you need more XP for each level, but you also gain free XP slower.

Also, buildings set the cap for a city, having a really high cap doesn't mean you grow any faster at the lower levels. But other buildings will be capable of improving growth rate, though once you hit the cap growth rate doesn't mean anything.

Aye - stacking the "Cap" buildings will only increase the Cap. Stacking the "Rate" buildings will increase the rate of XP gain. Some buildings will have both attributes.

We had been discussing having the total cap influence gain rate, but decided that it would be easier to keep the two attributes separate. In the above example, the Archery Range would provide experience per turn, the amount slowly decreasing as experience is gained. The Bowyer would increase the maximum experience that can be gained, and would also increase the rate of all passive experience gain for UNITCOMBAT_ARCHER by 20% (so it does actually make the Archery Range a little quicker).

Command Posts will also provide a decent rate increase for all of the "military" unit combats (Mounted, Melee, Archer and Recon) which means that organized leaders benefit there, and defensive leaders may get a small (~10%) global increase to the rate. Even with the Global rate increase however, you will still need a suitable building to provide an "XP Cap". Lots of numbers still to be crunched here though to get the balance right.

Hows about a amurite national wonder with High cap and gain rate for adepts? Perhaps build into their worldspell? Or giving Valledia a UB command post (A Cave of Ancestors replacement!?)? And Dain the NW.

Very neat Ideas.

Can't wait.

I am sure you have all heard it many times, but never too much. Thank you for your work on something I (we all) find so entertaining.

Passive XP maybe differs at all gamespeeds, I wonder?

(ignore this, didn't see the second page)

This would make waning easier for the Sidar, right? More reason to build Adepts.

Maybe Governor's Manor giving free XP to vampires to reflect the regular, turn by turn parties they invite lucky citizens to! Heh. Lots of flavorful possibilities!

Passive XP maybe differs at all gamespeeds, I wonder?

Aye - and so will Hero XP (which currently doesn't because Quick speed needs around 1.67 and Marathon needs around 0.33 etc). Xienwolf generally writes "per-turn" mechanics with gamespeed in mind.

This would make waning easier for the Sidar, right? More reason to build Adepts.

Depends on which change you mean. It makes predicting the number of turns required to wane a unit passively (which is still a slow way of doing it - I much prefer using Divided Souls to XP farm and then wane) easier. But it also means that you have other options to Adepts that can gain experience that way, if you've built the relevant structures. Adepts will be getting slightly fewer/more expensive training structures than the "military" types, as they already benefit from passive gain wherever they are in the world.

What of Calabim archers, cavalry and recon? The effort to make them level 6 usually kept me on the melee line. Could this cause balance issues involving more 500 xp longbowmen? Rooting those out of cities will not be easy.

What of Calabim archers, cavalry and recon? The effort to make them level 6 usually kept me on the melee line. Could this cause balance issues involving more 500 xp longbowmen? Rooting those out of cities will not be easy.

I don't think they'll make it to level 6 through passive XP alone in a hurry - at the base rate they will need 702 turns to earn that much. It may help however if they reach level 3 or so through passive gain and that helps keep them alive to gain the rest...

I suppose a somewhat easier to reach level "target" would be Elohim monks.
With additional starting XP boosts from a few levels of the Altar and the usual +XP civics, they should be able to hit level 4 pretty easily waiting around, and bashing in a couple of goblin skulls should net them enough XP for spirit affinity.
Not as game-breaking as vampires, but churning out a few more affinity monks can make quite a difference if you could get them early on, especially if you started next to sirona's (which happens somewhat often if you leave flavour start on :lol:)

Hero Promotion
It will now be possible to have "lesser heroes" - some units that have not qualified for a full hero promotion in the past may be able to gain 0.25 XP per turn rather than the more impressive 1XP that a standard hero might. Likewise, some of the less heroic-hero's may find themselves demoted to a "Champion" level unit. Equally - it's possible that certain super-beings (Hyborem, Basium) may be capable of gaining 1.5 or more XP per turn...
.

Can you give more detail of the mechanics of this?, is it that units can become minor heroes and minor heroes become major heroes by virtue of promotions gained?, ie all the levels in two fields open up a minor hero promotion when achieved. Or is this minor hero upgrade only provided via other means?.

I was looking at what Marnok was doing with adventurers, and got to thinking that a minor hero reward promotion, that only comes via lair/dungeon exploration might work well with what you have so far.

This also nicely leaves golems out in the cold, no passive XP there I assume. And gives some more reason to have living units.

Aye, I did make a post earlier in the main forums regarding Luchuirp's golems.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=295646

For a while now we could have seen how the addition of worker XP made workers simply catch up very fast with their mud golem counterparts (which are expensive), and radically outstrip them once they reach horseback riding and gain mobility promotions--moving into an untamed forest and immediately start building a road anyone?
However it was still kind of a minor issue, but its kind of an analogy to the issue here, though this is on a much larger scale.

On the whole though, I'd like to really see the implementation of this new XP system in FF before making real comparisons to the golems, and seeing if there's really a balance issue there.

There could be decent reason to claim that a golem in a city can be worked on and tweaked by the local Dwarves here and there. As such, designing a UNITCOMBAT_GOLEM and flagging them to never recieve XP in battle may be the appropriate step.

Then, Golem Workshops can offer TrainingXP to the local Golems, who will then be able to select from a variety of enhancements (quite likely all based on prereq's of other buildings in the city).


This way, you still do not have golems randomly promoting out in the field, but they begin to have some customization and growth available.

I've just posted the changes relating to this into the changelog - reposted here for any discussion


44. "Training Yard" renamed to "Barracks".
45. New building "Training Yard", requires Warfare, +10 Passive XP Cap for Melee.
46. "Archery Range" renamed to "Fletcher".
47. New building "Archery Range", requires Archery, +10 Passive XP Cap for Archer.
48. New building "Jousting Tilt", requires Feudalism, +16 Passive XP Cap for Mounted.
49. Hunting Lodge and House of the Grey (Sidar UB for Hunting Lodge) gain +5 Passive XP Cap for Recon.
50. Exploration Guild (Austrin UB for Hunting Lodge) gains +10 Passive XP Cap for Recon.
51. Command Post gains +20% Passive XP Gain Rate for Melee, Mounted and Archer.
52. Mages Guild and Alchemy Lab both gain +10% Passive XP Gain Rate for Adept.
53. Meditation Hall (Kahdi UB Alchemy Lab) gains +20% Passive XP Gain Rate for Adept.
54. Pagan Temple gains +10% Passive XP Gain Rate for Disciple.
55. Temple of Temporance gains +30% Passive XP Gain Rate for Disciple.
56. Jousting Tilt grants +2 Happiness with Aristocracy
57. Archery Range grants +1 Happiness with Aristocracy


Melee have to develop Warfare in order to train passively, but this also opens up some of their more useful promotions anyway so it is normally a good move. They also require a new building.
Archers have access to training at the same time as the basic archer unit, but require an additional building expense to achieve it. They also gain +1 Happiness under Aristocracy from the new Archery Range.
Mounted units have to reach Feudalism to train passively, but have the highest cap available from a basic building (16XP). The Jousting Tilt also grants +2 Happiness under Aristocracy.
Recon units have minimal passive training abilities as it does not really fit their purpose to spend a lot of time hanging around a city. The Austrin however do train their recon units slightly better. The training ability is attached to the standard Hunting Lodge (or equivalent). The experience gained in this case represents them hunting in the area around the city grounds.
Adept and Disciple units already have an inherent ability to gain XP, so the buildings simply increase their rate. Adepts gain an increase from Mage Guilds and Alchemy labs whilst the Disciples need either a Pagan Temple or (for a significant boost) The Temple of Temporence (traditionally seen as a "good temple" - the site is significant for any religion, being the first point in Creation).

good changes, 0.43 is gonna rock :D

while we're on the topic of XP changes, one thing comes to mind: right now if an attacking unit withdraws, it gets 1 XP while the defender gets none. it would seem more fair to also let the defender get 1 XP imho.

Gekko;7468069']good changes, 0.43 is gonna rock :D

while we're on the topic of XP changes, one thing comes to mind:

Will you being incorperating the changes to fractions of an XP point (or rasing all xp related items by a factor of 100) in this patch also?

I guess I was/am expecting the passive XP and fractial XP to go hand in hand.

Not bad. I'm not sure I like the idea of making these buildings have a bonus with Aristocracy though.

Also, I would have thought that the Hippodrome would have allowed passive xp gain. They may not train to actually fight there, but competitive racing can be pretty intense. (The fatality rate of those racing in the Circus Maximus was higher than of gladiators in the Flavian Amphitheater.)

Will you being incorperating the changes to fractions of an XP point (or rasing all xp related items by a factor of 100) in this patch also?

I guess I was/am expecting the passive XP and fractial XP to go hand in hand.

Aye - they were both added at the same time as the passive XP relies upon the decimal XP.

Not bad. I'm not sure I like the idea of making these buildings have a bonus with Aristocracy though.

Also, I would have thought that the Hippodrome would have allowed passive xp gain. They may not train to actually fight there, but competitive racing can be pretty intense. (The fatality rate of those racing in the Circus Maximus was higher than of gladiators in the Flavian Amphitheater.)

Xienwolf suggested something similar after I posted the changelog as well as suggesting a few other buildings (Cave of Ancestors, Planar Gate, Dwarven Vaults). Definitely makes sense and I think there's room there to have them included without overdoing the mechanic.

Now that I think of it it would probably make the most sense thematically if chariots/war chariots benefited more from Hippodromes while Horsemen/horsearchers/knights benefited from jousting tilts. It would probably be complicated to set it up like that though.

Now that I think of it it would probably make the most sense thematically if chariots/war chariots benefited more from Hippodromes while Horsemen/horsearchers/knights benefited from jousting tilts. It would probably be complicated to set it up like that though.

Would require an additional UnitCombat, though that's not a terrible idea in that Chariots operate utterly differently to other unit types. Might be an interesting idea to look at later, but not for the moment.

Would require an additional UnitCombat, though that's not a terrible idea in that Chariots operate utterly differently to other unit types.

FFH's handling of chariots has always - from the beginning of time! - struck me as odd. Didn't chariots come long before mounted units historically? How about we strap a few mages to them, develop some fast-strike tactics and invade a small neighboring country in a bid for global hegemony?

Or maybe skip everything else and keep the mages: Have chariots be battle-mage platforms. I'm thinking not full scale mages with higher move scores, but specialists with perhaps a spell or two, but mostly interesting basic characteristics.

Might be an interesting idea to look at later, but not for the moment.

Or maybe not. :)

I don't thinking that having chariots as mage platforms is a good idea. I might consider an Amurite UU with such abilities acceptable, but it shouldn't be how they normally apperate.


For not I kind of liking making Chariots and War Chariots a little stronger than the horsemen equivalents (and making War Chariots have collateral damage from the blades on their wheels) but unable to enter rougher terrains, like those with forests/ancient forests/new forests/scrub. I would like it if I could keep them out of hills too though.



Hmm....I just got to thinking that it could actually be pretty cool if Chariots has a cargo capacity that let you carry 1 archer/melee/disciple/arcane unit to and from the battlefield. If the AI understood using land units to carry cargo I'd probably do it. (Can you try get the AI to understand it? It probably isn't important enough to delay the next release, but it could be nice in future versions.)



That also got me thinking that I'd really like units to be able to carry units of multiple domains and special unit types, perhaps with different limits on the number of each or perhaps making certain special unit types take up more space than others. Letting units carrying cargo be cargo (probably having their cargo count against the cargo limit of the unit caarrying it too) would be very nice too, and would make birds more useful.

Having played with the numbers and run a few side-by-side tests of units with increased rate buildings vs basic units, I've increased the Rate% for all of the buildings.

If listed as 10% previously, the new rate is 25%
If listed as 20% or 25% previously, the new rate is 50%
If listed as 30% previously, the new rate is 75%

====

The reason here is that the difference between increased rate passive experience and base rate was not quite sufficient to justify the expense of the buildings. Now for instance, level 4 is achievable around 20 turns quicker with a Command Post than it is without one (from 0 XP in both cases)

FFH's handling of chariots has always - from the beginning of time! - struck me as odd. Didn't chariots come long before mounted units historically? How about we strap a few mages to them, develop some fast-strike tactics and invade a small neighboring country in a bid for global hegemony?

I think the reason chariots came first was because horses originally were only slightly bigger than dogs. It took generations of selective breeding to get them to be big enough to ride. Since Erebus is just coming out of an ice age, I'd imagine that the horses are already big. Thus, its easier to jump on a horse then it is to build a wheeled cart and harness to strap on a horse.

Could the war/chariots maybe be given a huge bonus on roads/penalty off roads? Maybe prevent them from entering forests/jungles/swamps/snow/ice without roads? Maybe give them the slow promotion in these terrain? A chariot would be really useless in the woods :lol:

I think the reason chariots came first was because horses originally were only slightly bigger than dogs. It took generations of selective breeding to get them to be big enough to ride.

True, I'd forgotten about that. You can see the same thing with N.A. buffalo. Look at old photos - Even in the early 1800's they were only about 1/2 size. When Europeans arrived they were about 1/4 the size they're seen now. The "big as cows" buffalo are a wholly modern phenomena.

Some random thoughts with this(I know you are going further with it) Have you considered having a high level melee unit speed the training rate of other melee units in the city. Could take this a bit further and even have training promotions that speed the training rate of all other units in the city(drillmaster).

Also it would be cool to have bannor or crusade also give a boost to training rate(even if they wouldn't use it that much while crusading), but it would be nice to have the option to route all of the free crusade troops into a city with a training yard for a few turns to get a promotion or 2 before throwing them at the enemy.
(or if not them, perhaps another civic, race or trait(organized?)).

Some random thoughts with this(I know you are going further with it) Have you considered having a high level melee unit speed the training rate of other melee units in the city. Could take this a bit further and even have training promotions that speed the training rate of all other units in the city(drillmaster).


There's code in place to do that as a "CityBonus" field - both increasing the maximum XP gained and/or the gain rate. Hasn't been used yet, though we speculated that it'd make a nice ability to grant to a hero...