For the Polish UHV, I will have to do reading on Polish history, but I have a feeling it is totally unrelated.

On the Poish UHV: I'm not sure on historical accuracy either.
But what I can say: It's fun to play

Anyway, if we find something what is more accurate for them, we should rather go in that direction

For the Polish UHV, I will have to do reading on Polish history, but I have a feeling it is totally unrelated.

It's very related actually... if we're talking abount Poland after 15th c., we had as much Orthodox people as Catholics, or more, and then accepted Jews, heretics (i.e. Hussites), Protestants and Islamic Tatars, when they were persecuted elsewhere. Counterreformation strengthened Catholicism, but still, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth included modern-day Belarus, Ukraine and parts of Russia, where Orthodox Christians were the silent majority.

Based 1618 population census there were about 5-5.5m Catholics+Protestants, 5m Orthodox, 0.5m pagans and 0.5m Jews. Another figure gives 40% each to Catholic & Orthodox churches and 20% to Jews & Protestants (1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Poland#Polish-Lithuanian_Commonwealth_.281569-1795.29)).

It's very related actually... if we're talking abount Poland after 15th c., we had as much Orthodox people as Catholics, or more, and then accepted Jews, heretics (i.e. Hussites), Protestants and Islamic Tatars, when they were persecuted elsewhere. Counterreformation strengthened Catholicism, but still, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth included modern-day Belarus, Ukraine and parts of Russia, where Orthodox Christians were the silent majority.

That is interesting. I knew Poland was tolerant (compared to everyone else), but I didn't expect so many Orthodox Christians, especially considering that Russia is the Polish archenemy.

In this case, we should probably adjust Polish UP, otherwise they will get no benefits from faith points. They cannot generate them, since all the non-state religion drives faith low.

Poland's UP is religious tolerance right now IIRC
No instability or unhappiness from non-state religions
How do you want to change that to have positive effect on faith points?

Poland's UP is religious tolerance right now IIRC
No instability or unhappiness from non-state religions
How do you want to change that to have positive effect on faith points?

Add no loss of Faith Points for non-state religion spread and buildings. Or maybe only reduced loss of faith points.

That is interesting. I knew Poland was tolerant (compared to everyone else), but I didn't expect so many Orthodox Christians, especially considering that Russia is the Polish archenemy.
Remember that the PLC controlled quite a lot territory that one would label "Russia" today, at least a large area that is "natively" Orthodox. From what I know, Poland proper was still predominantly Catholic (or Protestant respectively, depending on which period in reformation and counterreformation you observe).

Add no loss of Faith Points for non-state religion spread and buildings. Or maybe only reduced loss of faith points.
That sounds fine, althouh we can perfectly live without those faith points. (see my screenshot from today)

About poland there is another issue: the polish UP “No unhappiness or instability from non-state religions” works fine normally, but when I adopt the Civic Religious Law, I get unhappiness from the religions other than the state religion.
Religious Law is giving +1 unhappiness per non-state religion in my cities, in spite of the UP.
In my opinion, even with the Religious Law, there should be no unhappiness from religions for the polish cities. Religious law is the key if Poland ever wants to found a corporation. (I was hoping for teutonics)

Bulgaria: Holy crap, I've never seen a civ so rigged in this game before.

I'll upload three pics, to show the huge extent of their empire, from greece, all the way up to the core borders of austria-hungary. They had more than 200 points more than any other civ (me) and were building many wonders. This needs help big time.


Also another issue - building the imperial diet as the brits. I have a new city bordering germany and i want to expand its borders via culture from the imperial diet wonder. I have an idle great engineer, but it wont let me build the imperial diet. I have a courthouse, and other cities with courthouses can build it (those without say get a courthouse and i can build it) But as you see, its not even an option there and i have no idea why

That sounds fine, althouh we can perfectly live without those faith points. (see my screenshot from today)


No gifts from the Pope then. However, how's your stability.

Anyway, I will fix the UP thing.

Bulgaria: Holy crap, I've never seen a civ so rigged in this game before.

I'll upload three pics, to show the huge extent of their empire, from greece, all the way up to the core borders of austria-hungary. They had more than 200 points more than any other civ (me) and were building many wonders. This needs help big time.


Also another issue - building the imperial diet as the brits. I have a new city bordering germany and i want to expand its borders via culture from the imperial diet wonder. I have an idle great engineer, but it wont let me build the imperial diet. I have a courthouse, and other cities with courthouses can build it (those without say get a courthouse and i can build it) But as you see, its not even an option there and i have no idea why

1. On Bulgaria: is that you playing or the AI? This is too much for the AI, but historically Bulgaria did control almost all of this in two periods (once with Simeon and once with Ivan Asen II) Constantinople is the exception and the south borders went to Olimpia not Athens. However, it is a bit ahistoric to have this at the Ottoman invasion (maybe the Plague killed the guardsman in Constantinople or something).

2. Imperial Diet requires Catholicism.

Try another game to see if Bulgaria would get that large, I often generate Dutch starts and this is the first time I see the AI that strong. If this is happening only in rare occasions, there is no need to fix anything. Ahistoric things will be happening all the time.

1. On Bulgaria: is that you playing or the AI? This is too much for the AI, but historically Bulgaria did control almost all of this in two periods (once with Simeon and once with Ivan Asen II) Constantinople is the exception and the south borders went to Olimpia not Athens. However, it is a bit ahistoric to have this at the Ottoman invasion (maybe the Plague killed the guardsman in Constantinople or something).

2. Imperial Diet requires Catholicism.

Try another game to see if Bulgaria would get that large, I often generate Dutch starts and this is the first time I see the AI that strong. If this is happening only in rare occasions, there is no need to fix anything. Ahistoric things will be happening all the time.

Ah thank you that makes more sense

It is definitely the AI, I was playing England so I couldn't have had an impact on them

The problem is, unlike history, they are very technologically advanced, and they have numerous wonders: see this page, they have 3 of the top 5 cities, a great feat for a mod with like 30 civs!

Like others are talking about, the Ottomans are overpowered in my opinion, they only have turkey (which is fine) but are very tech advanced and are building quite a few wonders as well, following in bulgarias footsteps

My Experience playing as England (France and Burgundy are taken out because I conquered them)
Overly Powerful Civs:
Bulgaria (wayyy too powerful here)
Ottomans (historic, but still they are better tech advanced than even Germany)
Norse (Until Sweden they had about 14 cities, they completely expanded in all of Scandinavia including finland)
Kiev (weren't even dented by barbs, had a huge empire pushing on the borders of Poland, Moscovy, and Bulgaria, I'm guessing at least 15 cities)

Weak Civs
Arabia (collapsed very early - first crusade)
Genoa (as always)
Spain (Cordoba collapsed and they failed to conquer the lower half of the country)
Venezia, Hungary, Austria (mostly because of Bulgarias strength, so I'm not too worried)

New Surprises (this may just be the particular game, but civs that aren't as bad as before)
Poland, Portugal, Moscovy, Burgundy

No gifts from the Pope then. However, how's your stability.

Anyway, I will fix the UP thing.

Very bad stability, even with Ocupation, castles, and manor houses. Ryga declared independence.

About the British: didn't France respawn during your ocupation? I once tried and they respawned twice, taking Paris, Chalons, Tours and Bordeaux automatically (without that independence chart with the options).

Ah thank you that makes more sense

It is definitely the AI, I was playing England so I couldn't have had an impact on them

The problem is, unlike history, they are very technologically advanced, and they have numerous wonders: see this page, they have 3 of the top 5 cities, a great feat for a mod with like 30 civs!


Perhaps you should try another game to see if this is a pattern. I guess the question is, who too Constantinople. If Plague or something kills the Constantinople defenders, then Bulgaria can take that and it will become superpower. I haven't seen it in practice, but it is a possibility.

Tech level is overall fast. Also, do you have corporations, with Medici Bank you should have little trouble out teching anyone.

Very bad stability, even with Ocupation, castles, and manor houses. Ryga declared independence.


Religion is probably your major contributing factor.

Religion is probably your major contributing factor.

Well, I think there is no other choice. One UHV requires 8 cathedrals, which means a minimum of 12 cities. The other UHV requires 12 cities outside Poland's core area. I guess stability is the chalenge for the Poles. :king:

Religion is probably your major contributing factor.

But how could this be? It's not totally clear for me right now...
Doesn't the UP mean that you get no instability from multiple religions?
Or having multiple religious buildings (thus low faith points) contribute that much to stability?

Well, I think there is no other choice. One UHV requires 8 cathedrals, which means a minimum of 12 cities. The other UHV requires 12 cities outside Poland's core area. I guess stability is the chalenge for the Poles. :king:

I guess tha main question: Is it doable on monarch?
It's perfect if it's hard and real challenging, but you can still win by completing your UHVs every now and then.

England UHV:

1. It's not too difficult to get the territory by 1452. I think the two key things are early military (I'm talking first 10 turns) to keep your Normandy possessions (Caen and Calais) and focusing on military after your cities are established. I wouldn't say beeline to chivalry but put importance on this. You need knights to take out the french. This isn't too hard for a human player to do if they focus. For the number 2 and 3 to be possible, you need to be aggressive in taking cities of both France and Burgundy (I was forced to go to war with Burgundy because of vassal) even if it means low science for the short run. Also theres an element of luck involved. I was able to vassalize Genoa, Spain, and Portugal. I had control of England, France, and Dutch atlantic access and with vassalage, force Iberia to give me theirs, so number 2 became very easy all of a sudden.

2 and 3. These kind of go hand in hand. The key here is cottages and watermills (watermills when appropriate otherwise just cottage spam). I had serious I mean SERIOUS issues getting technology before about 1500. Until then I was seriously in debt due to Normandy possessions. It took about 30 turns after that to catch up in tech some of the civs, I never caught up to the top civs. Don't expect to get any wonders until the late ones.

England review: I would say England can be very hard unless you play the right way. I took Amsterdam at the start, which I think was a good move for the gold and resources. I think their UP could be altered, cus its kind of useless, but not necessary to beat it on monarch.
The moorland is just stupid. I'd reccomend getting rid of all of it except in Northern Scotland and Ireland. It just sucks having barley on moorland - it becomes completely useless

England review: I would say England can be very hard unless you play the right way. I took Amsterdam at the start, which I think was a good move for the gold and resources. I think their UP could be altered, cus its kind of useless, but not necessary to beat it on monarch.
The moorland is just stupid. I'd reccomend getting rid of all of it except in Northern Scotland and Ireland. It just sucks having barley on moorland - it becomes completely useless

That is exactly how we want the game, hard, but not too hard.

When you say English UP is useless, doesn't it help the colony building as well as the early military? With the moorlands there aren't that many places for mines and such.

That is exactly how we want the game, hard, but not too hard.

When you say English UP is useless, doesn't it help the colony building as well as the early military? With the moorlands there aren't that many places for mines and such.

I understand the difficulty but it leads to an England that is very backward compared to its neighbors. It will be unbalanced when the AI is playing as English because they build a workshop on every tile! so there is absolutely no gold coming out of london when it should have at least 5 or so towns

I make never use of the UP because I build cottages on non-resourced flatlands. So for my games it would be better if towns get a bonus.

I understand the difficulty but it leads to an England that is very backward compared to its neighbors. It will be unbalanced when the AI is playing as English because they build a workshop on every tile! so there is absolutely no gold coming out of london when it should have at least 5 or so towns

Yeah, I also experienced this in almost all of my games
It would be much better if the bonus was for cottages
The UP's name is cottage economy after all...

Playing as Venice I somehow got open borders with an Independant, which is quite annoying as it prevents me from declaring war without using world builder (which I just don't like using).

I added a savegame in case it helps.

The special ability of the knight templar is to explore rival territory. And that includes independents. Enter ind.city radius with a normal unit, declare war, then hit with the templars!

Yeah, ezzlar is right on templars
But there is something else I hate about the independents:
When you declare war on them, that counts in the diplomatic relations with the major civs too
The usual "you declared war on our friend"
And many civs will have friendly relations towards most independents, because after a few turns
there is auto peace, and the independent civs won't hurt major civs at all...

This is especially annoying since the independent teams are quite random on the map, so 2 cities of the same team can be very far away
In my latest game I had -11 diplo with England because "you declared war on our friend", and I don't declared war on even one major player in that game!!!

I had unhappiness in my cities because of fighting brothers in faith even though I was at peace with all civs. Must have been an ind nation then?

AI Byzantine is incredible fast in tech with Banking in 900AD+.

France is powerful because of the early Catholic start which gives the player the opportunity to beeline techs, shoot for corporations, city places and wonders. They should be given some obstacle to deal with! Early barbarians arent enough because of the free wins.

Edit: Papal states are often in head with techs. Feels unrealistic!

AI Byzantine is incredible fast in tech with Banking in 900AD+.

Another thing that signs manoralism is right now overpowered
I can't think of anything else causing it, since there were no other econimic changes since beta 4

Have you guys added a "Plague of Justinian" and a re-run to that as well? That would severaly weaken the country, if balancing it is too hard. Currently though, I still think Bulgaria is too expansive, when it really should stop growing after a while.

Have you guys added a "Plague of Justinian" and a re-run to that as well? That would severaly weaken the country, if balancing it is too hard. Currently though, I still think Bulgaria is too expansive, when it really should stop growing after a while.

Plague of Justinian is there. Also, which version of RFCE are you playing, there were some issues with Bulgarian AI getting Constantinople and becoming a super-power, but that is fixed for Beta 5.

oooh! Didn't see Beta 5, I was playing Beta 4.... :mischief:

But anyway, you can have one or two of those re-rise plagues

Been playing as the Genoans recently, found two corporations early and got the banks soon later. But the goal is still not completed, am I alone on this. Check save file to confirm.

I am playing a game on Beta 4 (haven't DL 5 yet and so not sure if this is fixed in 5).

My bug I have seen is that Sweden AI player is getting Formation promotions for their Carracks. I know Formation is their Unique ability, but shouldn't this be restricted to land-based units?

PatCat90 I got the same with Genoa on Beta 4.

I had completed the other two objectives but even with the two corporations and far more banks than required for the goal it did not trigger.

I am wondering if the goal trigger is vanilla banks and the cities actually contain the UB Venetian Bank?

PatCat90 I got the same with Genoa on Beta 4.

I had completed the other two objectives but even with the two corporations and far more banks than required for the goal it did not trigger.

I am wondering if the goal trigger is vanilla banks and the cities actually contain the UB Venetian Bank?

This was on Beta 5. So the bug persists.

Other feedback - is it possible to get the leader music more aligned with the RFCEurope leaders?

I realise getting some done will require finding and getting suitable music into the right format.

There are some though that could be done easily as they are already in Civ4 but different base leaders have been used for the Mod.

As an Anglophile it is getting really annoying hearing La Marseilles every time the English leader pope up.

Other feedback - is it possible to get the leader music more aligned with the RFCEurope leaders?

I realise getting some done will require finding and getting suitable music into the right format.


I second this. Bulgaria with Persian music, and the Holy Roman Empire with Celtic music just don't work. I'm sure with some searching, we could find apt replacements. It's already been done for Austria, Sweden, Poland, Venice, and Hungary.

Alright I know some of you have been complaining about the strength of the Ottoman empire; but I just tried them on monarch - I'm having serious issues with stability

I settled throughout Turkey, Holy lands, and through Egypt as farthest west. Then I started conquering North, and I couldn't get any farther than a few Bulgarian cities in before I had serious stability issues. I had castles, courthouses, and town watches in almost every city and I had stable everything else, I just had MASSIVE negatives on expansion. Is there a way to balance this? Maybe turn their UB into a stability booster?

What is the Ottoman UP again? Sorry I'm away from my gaming pc atm

Just made a dutch start with Beta 5 to see what would the world look like.

The Ottomans control all of Anatolia, all of Levant except Jerusalem (controlled by the Germans), pushed as far as Thessaloniki in Greece and just captured Alexandrie in Egypt. Nice to see such a pretty impressive Ottoman Empire!

Bulgaria is weak, as is most of the east.

Spain booted Cordoba and controls pretty much all of its current territory and Napoli and Firenze -- Portugal is useless as usual (doesn't even settle islands).

Nothing interesting to report on France, Germany and England.

Genoa has a city near Moscow...

IMO the "weak" point of the mod is the completely uninteresting south of the map, ie North Africa. There's nothing going on there except in Morocco for Spain/Portugal/Cordoba and in Egypt for the Arabs and the Turks. I don't know if there's something to be done but it just seems no one (even the AI) cares about it.

I am playing a game on Beta 4 (haven't DL 5 yet and so not sure if this is fixed in 5).

My bug I have seen is that Sweden AI player is getting Formation promotions for their Carracks. I know Formation is their Unique ability, but shouldn't this be restricted to land-based units?

We know that the Swedish non-land units get the bonus. But it would take too much effort to fix it. Currently, we have other priorities. And it doesn't effect the game, because ships (and also workers and settlers) doesn't fight against mounted units anyway.

IIRC, I once got the Genoan Bank + Corp UHV without that bug.

I will try to give the Leaderheads a more appropriate background music.

@dalebu
I hope you mean Genoan Bank in post 4534. BTW, welcome to CFC.

What is the Ottoman UP again? Sorry I'm away from my gaming pc atm

Well I was suggesting their UB, but their UP might be better to change
Their UB adds 2 happiness to aqueduct, which is fairly useless and unrelated to the ottomans
Their UP lets you draft in cities with less than 30% of your own culture... rather useless as well because youll be spamming knights every 1-2 turns from a multitude of cities by the 16th century.
I'm suggesting giving +2 stability to conquered cities as the UP, that would really help the ottomans, currently on monarch its impossible to get to vienna and egypt without collapsing

That is same as Occupation civic. Something else maybe?

And drafting only works when you have above 10% of your own culture. So no drafting in new cities. In reality this is only between 10-30% own culture.

Maybe Janissarie (?) as UU?

IIRC, I once got the Genoan Bank + Corp UHV without that bug.

So you're saying it's fine?

We know that the Swedish non-land units get the bonus. But it would take too much effort to fix it. Currently, we have other priorities. And it doesn't effect the game, because ships (and also workers and settlers) doesn't fight against mounted units anyway.

IIRC, I once got the Genoan Bank + Corp UHV without that bug.

I will try to give the Leaderheads a more appropriate background music.

@dalebu
I hope you mean Genoan Bank in post 4534. BTW, welcome to CFC.

So you're saying there is no bug?

We know that the Swedish non-land units get the bonus. But it would take too much effort to fix it.
Not really, it's one simple extra condition in the code.

I just said what 3Miro said. He thinks it requires some C++. But if it isn't so hard, we can change it.

I don't know for 100% sure if there is no Genoan UHV bug.

During my game as France i owned Genoa (Genes) and when the genoans spawned I tested rejecting the flip. The genoan army spawned in Corse. Since the AI doesnt know how to use naval invasions very well I was able to keep the city.

The army should pop on the main land!

Even better:
In my last game with burgundy I found a city one tile west of Genova
When the genoans spawned, they didn't even asked for the city, no flip screen or anything
I was able to keep the city and remain in peace with them at the same time
Their initial army transported a few tiles southeast and found their capital between my city and Firenze

Been playing as the Genoans recently, found two corporations early and got the banks soon later. But the goal is still not completed, am I alone on this. Check save file to confirm.

same here (beta 5)
save attached (1 turn before UHV should count)

hey do you guys think we could sticky this thread?

No, the download thread should if possible always be on top, and this thread will always stay on top of the first page so there is no need to sticky it.

Ottomans should be able to draft units from cities with dominant foreign culture. Is there a bug? Their UP could be changed, I have not tried an Ottoman game myself.

Changing the Formation promotion for ships and Medic promotion for workers takes more code than you think. It will require a hard-coding between XML and C++, which means some things will be very hard to change. Right now, any changes in C++ only have to be reflected in a simple Python file. At any rate, this change is purely cosmetic.

same here (beta 5)
save attached (1 turn before UHV should count)

I fixed it for the next version.

Thanks.

I fixed it for the next version.

Thanks.

Saw the svn, all the changes look good :goodjob:
Pls wait for my updates before releasing Beta 6
I will upload them either tomorrow night or on Saturday

I'm not sure if it's intended or if I'm doing something wrong..
sometimes I have trouble getting an initial religion spread

I quit my last game with Portugal sometime around 1300 when I was still atheist..
The only option to force it would be conquest and you still need a monastary or org. religion to spread it. And attacking Cordoba usualy results in Islam, not what I had in mind.

I have a similar problem with England besides that I have no idea how to get France out of the way.

The most likely origin for catholicism ist the flipping french cities, but they probrably don't have a monastary, don't produce squat and org. religion ist usually out of reach. If the French don't immediately conquer them back or sink your lone ship in the english channel(stopping any reinforcements either way)

I vote that both civs get an initial catholic missionary
any second?

Has tech cost been reduced since the last alpha?

Tried an Ottoman game and on spawn half the world was protestant (founded in late 12th century) with France and Germany popping all wonders with a massive point lead to the rabble.

Tried a German game after I saw the early AI's Printing Press and got it myself in 1203, by the time my third UHV completed (1560) I was starting on the Industrial Revolution tech :D

Same with a Dutch game, starts off being a whole era or more behind FRA/GER which makes Europe a rather dangerous place for a newcomer :D

England is only doable if you get a French stack in one of the flip cities (tried 5 times :(), but a long .. oh so very long climb up the tech tree and not seeing any sort of parity unless FRA/GER suicides each other.

Austria are pathetic, again probably due to no longer having a tech buffer on spawn, used to be able to pimp Chivalry for a lot of the missing techs on spawn making the catch-up much faster. They vassalize to Poland of all things in most games.

Moscow never seems to get going, very slow expansion from what I have seen. Perhaps a little more southern aggression is in order so they can nab those tasty Kievan left overs.

Hungary and Bulgaria AI's are very competitive now (read: they don't collapse constantly), although they don't seem to have the grudge match going that they did in alpha releases, could just be me though.

Venice took a huge hit whatever was done to them. AI used to rule the Mediterranean with cities all over the smaller isles, now they barely make it to southern Greece. At least they are not uber-techers anymore .. much more on par with the rest (until Towns kick in in GER/FRA that is).

Norse are Norse. Can be powerhouses or whimpy little vassals, seems to be dependent on luck with RNG when they go pillaging ..
Isn't it possible to have a UHV other than raze an entire empire, very stereotyped considering what they gave Europe (Normans, spread of Christianity). I feel that something like building trading-posts in unlikely places is more appropriate.

Personally think that one of the reasons for the tech madness is the Free Peasantry/Limited Monarchy combo. On the vast European stretches of river grassland it just gives such an insane output ..
German game I cranked Line Infantry in 1.5 turns from a non-capital cottage farm, +300g/turn, 2k+ beaker/turn@100% .. just seems wrong :)

Veshta, are you playing Monarch or Viceroy. Dutch are usually not so far behind on Monarch.

Faster tech rate is a problem for the mod, it will be slowed down for the next version.

Veshta, are you playing Monarch or Viceroy. Dutch are usually not so far behind on Monarch...
Monarch, that's the 'default' I believe .. clickity-click when starting game, drug must flow :)

And yea, there are some occasions where the Dutch are about on par with the continent (only had patience to check 4 games so no way statistically relevant :)), but that requires one or both of the neighbours to have had serious problems along the way .. not sure what kind of code is determining war 'twixt FRA and GER, but they do not seem to go at it enough for it to have any impact on their performance.

Just wanted to get it out there since the tech difference between alpha and beta was very noticeable to me.

PS: Why all the Byzantium hate? Isn't it enough that they get Turks, Bulgars, Barbarians and Arabs .. I just saw that Venice has them as target now as well .. hahahaha, poor sods :D

PS: Why all the Byzantium hate? Isn't it enough that they get Turks, Bulgars, Barbarians and Arabs .. I just saw that Venice has them as target now as well .. hahahaha, poor sods :D

Also Moscow, but they are the Ottomans by then. The Byz were the biggest thing around for quite some time, so naturally everyone wants to go after them.

Speaking of Byzantium, I was wondering why they start off with Ephesus as a city rather than Smyrna? Although Ephesus was a much more important city in 500 AD, it's importance quickly diminished as the centuries passed and silt filled its harbor. Smyrna, on the other hand, remained an important urban center through the Ottoman Era and into today. I always see it quite amusing to see Ephesus survive into the late game as an Ottoman City.

Speaking of Byzantium, I was wondering why they start off with Ephesus as a city rather than Smyrna? Although Ephesus was a much more important city in 500 AD, it's importance quickly diminished as the centuries passed and silt filled its harbor. Smyrna, on the other hand, remained an important urban center through the Ottoman Era and into today. I always see it quite amusing to see Ephesus survive into the late game as an Ottoman City.

No clue. Are they at more or less the same spot or somewhere different. We can easily change one city if you give me a screen-shot with exactly which city and exactly where you want it.

Geographically speaking, Smyrna would ideally be 1 tile NW of where Ephesus is now, where the wheat is. If we move the city, we'll probably have to tweak the resources around a bit. I don't know what repercussions this would have on Bursa when the Ottomans spawn or on Byzantine Settling habits.

Alright what do you guys think about putting salt in turkey?

Lake Tuz is a huge salt lake in Turkey, yet there is no salt anywhere nearby (the closest is in Egypt!). Turkey is also known for salt mines elsewhere: adding salt would be geographically accurate, and could "spice" up the landscape :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Tuz

Alright what do you guys think about putting salt in turkey?

Lake Tuz is a huge salt lake in Turkey, yet there is no salt anywhere nearby (the closest is in Egypt!). Turkey is also known for salt mines elsewhere: adding salt would be geographically accurate, and could "spice" up the landscape :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Tuz

Aha, a pun! Most ingenious... And I mean that sincerely. I think salt would be a nice bonus, though with all the stuff in Anatolia already, does everything need another bonus?

though with all the stuff in Anatolia already, does everything need another bonus?

Yeah that's true, though we could remove one resource to compensate perhaps.
Compared to a decently large European country (the entire Iberian peninsula is smaller than Turkey), it has about the same or less health resources

Spain: fish, pigs, sheep, cow, clam, wheat, crab, deer, rice, salt

Turkey: fish, pigs, sheep, cow, clam, wheat, crab, deer

I would sooner associate unhealthiness and disease with Western European nations than to Turkey; it wouldn't be unreasonable to add salt to it. If you need to balance things, you can remove the deer in the extreme top right (which ottomans take a long time to get to anyway)

Aha, a pun! Most ingenious... And I mean that sincerely. I think salt would be a nice bonus, though with all the stuff in Anatolia already, does everything need another bonus?

Well, IMO Turkey should get some salt flats towards the center of the country, where large salt mines are known to exist, still to-today

Don't forget that Anatolia is not nearly as "resource rich" as Europe. In a normal game, Turkey would also control significant junk of the Balkans and the Middle-East towards Damascus.

I can live with adding the salt near the lake, and removing the deer from Anatolia

I can live with adding the salt near the lake, and removing the deer from Anatolia

Ya that sounds good. Also you guys should add the new Clovis I LH thats been created recently

Also you guys should add the new Clovis I LH thats been created recently

You mean Capo's LH? I like that one too, but it's somewhat early for the most civs, and France/Frankia already has 3 leaders
Where do you think we should use it?

You mean Capo's LH? I like that one too, but it's somewhat early for the most civs, and France/Frankia already has 3 leaders
Where do you think we should use it?

Well IMO, it doesn't matter if France has three LH's, but perhaps you could use it as an early Spanish King or something along those lines. But if you could remove Joan of Arc and add him, I think that would be 1000 x better! Just add in Clovis I as the first LH, and then move Charlesmagne forward.

I can live with adding the salt near the lake, and removing the deer from Anatolia

Yeah I agree, this should be the solution. The city with the deer has crab anyway, so it has some method of growing

Geographically speaking, Smyrna would ideally be 1 tile NW of where Ephesus is now, where the wheat is. If we move the city, we'll probably have to tweak the resources around a bit. I don't know what repercussions this would have on Bursa when the Ottomans spawn or on Byzantine Settling habits.

Instead of moving the resources, you could just change Ephesus to Izmir upon flipping to Turkey. As the cities are so close, the change could represent the decline of Ephesus and the rise of Smyrna/Izmir as a more important city. Also, after flipping, if Izmir was recaptured by the Byzantines, then the name could change to Smyrna, not Ephesus. I believe Rhye did something like this with the name changes to Jerusalem in regular RFC.

Instead of moving the resources, you could just change Ephesus to Izmir upon flipping to Turkey. As the cities are so close, the change could represent the decline of Ephesus and the rise of Smyrna/Izmir as a more important city. Also, after flipping, if Izmir was recaptured by the Byzantines, then the name could change to Smyrna, not Ephesus. I believe Rhye did something like this with the name changes to Jerusalem in regular RFC.

Rhye did that, but it requires a lot of knit-picking, tuning such events for every individual city ... I mean, this is not Constantinople or Jerusalem, not even a capital.

One name for Turkey, one name for the Byz, thats all the city would get.

Could it please be clarified if Burgundy's most luxury resources counts unique resources or total resources?

Could it please be clarified if Burgundy's most luxury resources counts unique resources or total resources?

Total. Many of the UHVs are ambiguous, I will change the wording on those so we can be more clear.

Total. Many of the UHVs are ambiguous, I will change the wording on those so we can be more clear.

Does Burgundy get stability in the Netherlands?

Does Burgundy get stability in the Netherlands?

Check the settlers maps in the reference folder.

Check the settlers maps in the reference folder.

What do the difference colors mean?


Burgundian Culture Metre got stuck, see save

hmm.. Kaniza, Hungary that corp won't spread very far xD

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/3328/civ4screenshot0001h.th.jpg (http://img835.imageshack.us/i/civ4screenshot0001h.jpg/)

What do the difference colors mean?


Burgundian Culture Metre got stuck, see save

Bug, got it. You can download the Victory.py file that I have posted and replace the file in RFCEurope\Assets\Python\Victory.py, then it should be fine.

EDIT: for the colors, darker is more stable. Regular color is unstable.

Bug, got it. You can download the Victory.py file that I have posted and replace the file in RFCEurope\Assets\Python\Victory.py, then it should be fine.

EDIT: for the colors, darker is more stable. Regular color is unstable.

Is white worse than normal?




EDIT: As the Byzantines I controlled Carthage on turn 1023 and the tiles above and below Carthago left my control

EDIT2: While I am Orthodox Byzantium, Orthodox Kiev has a -1 against me for "We are upset that you have fallen under the sway of a heathen religion". Why I should slaughter the filthy Uniates...

hmm.. Kaniza, Hungary that corp won't spread very far xD

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/3328/civ4screenshot0001h.th.jpg (http://img835.imageshack.us/i/civ4screenshot0001h.jpg/)

whoa that's really weird. what happened??

You only can build the Hanseatic League in coastal cities. I think the game thought that the lake 1 tile NE is a coastal tile, so the cities was able to get the corp. If this is easy to fix, we should fix it. But the chance of having this bug is very small.

Is white worse than normal?




EDIT: As the Byzantines I controlled Carthage on turn 1023 and the tiles above and below Carthago left my control

EDIT2: While I am Orthodox Byzantium, Orthodox Kiev has a -1 against me for "We are upset that you have fallen under the sway of a heathen religion". Why I should slaughter the filthy Uniates...

To be honest with you, I don't know what white means ... I will try to clean up such ambiguities.

The Round Church symbolizes the fracture within the Orthodox nations, right after Bulgaria converted, you would expect peace, but what followed was the bloodiest period of history. After the battle of Acheloy, some peace followed, but it wasn't long until Kiev also joined in. At one point you got Bulgaria, Kiev and Byzantium all fighting each other and it was every man for himself. So the Round Church messes the relaions between the Orthodox players so that they can fight more.

whoa that's really weird. what happened??
Is that lake erroneously tagged as coast perhaps?

Can still get out though, couple of forts and settling Fiume(?) should do it. Use it all the time to get Hanseatic into Jerusalem and other near-coastal cities.

Is there going to be a penalty slapped onto Free Peasantry?
It is bordering on game-breaking with whomever getting to Education first "winning" .. usually France or Germany due to grass land galore ;)

Found another limiter on England, besides being molested by uber-advanced France (fixed with promised tech rate decrease).
The lack of contacts means no trading and all research being "full price" .. other late comers (Genoa, Austria, Ottomans, Swedes) usually have 4-5 or more contacts to start off with so they can get off the ground more easily.

You only can build the Hanseatic League in coastal cities. I think the game thought that the lake 1 tile NE is a coastal tile, so the cities was able to get the corp. If this is easy to fix, we should fix it. But the chance of having this bug is very small.

I figured that it's avery small chance of something like that happening, but worth mentioning nevertheless :)

It would be even more awesome if the AI figured out that it could connect Budapest and the lake with a fort to spread it's corp.:D

Could you make it so I can gift cities to countries that have it in their settler map?

Wait for the new province system
But sure, this should be definitely part of it

Wait for the new province system
But sure, this should be definitely part of it

The city in question was Marseilles which is in the French core area >.<

Yeah, I also noticed this
Gyulafehervar (spawned as Belograd as a barb city), which is absolutely in hungary's core area, cannot be liberated to them..
The way RFCE handles areas are pretty hard to keep track of, this is why the new province system will be implemented in the first place

In the next Beta will Smyrna replace Ephesus?

I know you have a lot on your to-do list and this is really minor compared to everything else, but I don't want it to be forgotten. Ephesus lost most of its importance after it was partially razed by the Arabs in the 7th century.

Noted
Will check the Byzantine part of the map too

Well, IMO Turkey should get some salt flats towards the center of the country, where large salt mines are known to exist, still to-today

YEAH! How about, a code that makes the salt disappear when the Byzantines are controlling Anatolia, but miraculously appear when Turkey controls it!! THAT will ensure an even weaker Byzantium, and an even stronger Turkey!!!!! Now thats what im talkin' about!!

Stop trolling.

YEAH! How about, a code that makes the salt disappear when the Byzantines are controlling Anatolia, but miraculously appear when Turkey controls it!! THAT will ensure an even weaker Byzantium, and an even stronger Turkey!!!!! Now thats what im talkin' about!!

umm... first off like what ezzlar said stop trolling, second of all, when did I say anything about disappearing and reappearing salt flats? I said that their should be salt flats their from the BEGINNING. Just because I said they still exist does not mean they were discovered in 1922.
FakeShady I'm starting to get really pissed off with your incessant attacks, especially when they are not provoked by anything I have said to you, and especially when you go (falsely) attacking really old posts I've made. So I would suggest you stop being a troll, as your just wasting space on this thread and not contributing to anything. Thank You for understanding :yup:

YEAH! How about, a code that makes the salt disappear when the Byzantines are controlling Anatolia, but miraculously appear when Turkey controls it!! THAT will ensure an even weaker Byzantium, and an even stronger Turkey!!!!! Now thats what im talkin' about!!
Sarcasm does now suit you well. Would you be more amicable to having Anatolia have some salt by Lake Tuz from the beginning so that the Byzantines get a nice bonus as long as they can hold on to it?

Sarcasm does now suit you well. Would you be more amicable to having Anatolia have some salt from the beginning so that the Byzantines get a nice bonus as long as they can hold on to it?

That's what I said from the beginning -___-

Sarcasm does now suit you well. Would you be more amicable to having Anatolia have some salt by Lake Tuz from the beginning so that the Byzantines get a nice bonus as long as they can hold on to it?

Lol chill, its just a joke. Like i said i like to check back once in a while to see how's things. Its just a joke because IMO Byzantium is getting all the crap.

I dont care about whether or not there is salt or Anatolia. It just seems to me that Turkey is getting stronger all the time and no one is doing anything about it :)

To the Turk: I wasnt making fun of you. Not interested really :) It was just a joke to make fun of the current situation. Learn some humour guys. Fine, i'll quote someone else's post next time -_- btw i find it amusing you realized there's no salt in Turkey, but failed to realize that Portugal and Poland are too weak to be true. Its like i'm complaining i dont have an Xbox Kinect when the people around me are dying of starvation of something.

Im actually very impressed by beta 6, and am really excited to see how things are gonna turn out :)

EDIT: i love Austria's music! Someone tell me the name of it? Its soooo familiar but i just couldnt give a name to it...

Actually I already said a couple of times that the Ottomans are overpowered, and I plan to cut back some of their bonuses if they remain this strong after the province system is up and working.
Btw the others were right, your last post was absolutely trolling :p

well people are complaining about how strong they are, but you have to be honest, they are extremely powerful for several centuries there. In 3 centuries, they conquered turkey, the balkans, baghdad, arabia, the holy lands, egypt, a lot of north africa, ukraine, caucasus, and hungary. Sure I don't think this should be done with just ridiculous unit growth rate, but being militarily very powerful I have no problem with (economically, wonderly, and scientifically I do, then they just become a superpower)

If we improve a civ too much it becomes uber in human hands. Turkey is an obvious example of this.

If we improve a civ too much it becomes uber in human hands. Turkey is an obvious example of this.

That is why we now have separate modifiers for the human and AI.

The Ottoman AI is not OP until they can take both Bulgaria and Arabia, right now they can only take Byzantium. I should probably change their UP, the current one really inst working very well.

With the new tech scheme, Portugal will have easier time getting the right techs on time.

Poland is weak, I will get on fixing that as soon as we have working Provinces.

I actually don't think Turkey needs all that much work once the tech rate has been "fixed". The problem they have is that they are way behind on spawn which negates the production bonus from the awesome terrain (Wind POWAH! :)) and Islam.
You could borrow the UP from RFC (Assimilation) or maybe even the Babylonian RFC UP (No resistance on conquer), either is infinitely better than the draft while keeping with the feel/theme (in my opinion).

I actually don't think Turkey needs all that much work once the tech rate has been "fixed". The problem they have is that they are way behind on spawn which negates the production bonus from the awesome terrain (Wind POWAH! :)) and Islam.
You could borrow the UP from RFC (Assimilation) or maybe even the Babylonian RFC UP (No resistance on conquer), either is infinitely better than the draft while keeping with the feel/theme (in my opinion).

Turkey still takes forever to overtake Bulgaria, they are till "working" on it in the late 1500 (and this is with Bulgaria getting -20 stability points penalty when Turkey spawns).

I was thinking of giving the Ottomans the Persian UP since stability does seem like a problem for them, but I will have to see how it works with the new system. We can also give free units in every conquered Christian city.

That is why we now have separate modifiers for the human and AI.
Exactly! In fact I would encourage you making it harder for the human player to play as the Turks.

The Ottoman AI is not OP until they can take both Bulgaria and Arabia, right now they can only take Byzantium. I should probably change their UP, the current one really inst working very well.
True true, currently the Ottomans need to be able to take Arabia and Bulgaria which they usually are not able to do at the moment. Also Bulgaria is too OP from the last time I checked. They were an insignificant Kingdom on the outskirts of the great Byzantine Civilization, why they continue to be such a threat I have no idea. The AI Bulgaria should be like the Incas or Mali in RFC, weak and ready to surrender. We should see Bulgaria as vassals of the Byzantines more often.


With the new tech scheme, Portugal will have easier time getting the right techs on time.
Out of curiosity what are you planning to do with that?

Poland is weak, I will get on fixing that as soon as we have working Provinces.

Oh cool! I heard that you guys were planning to use Edead's province idea, but I'm happy its following through. If you need any help with provinces in certain areas just contact me at: the.turkciv@gmail.com

PS. Adding salt to Anatolia will make the Byzantines just as powerful as the Turks. And yes just like in every other game I've played including the Ottomans and Byzantines (RFC, DoC, SoI), the Ottomans EVENTUALLY take over the crumbling Byzantine Empire (except if the Byzantine is Human)

True true, currently the Ottomans need to be able to take Arabia and Bulgaria which they usually are not able to do at the moment. Also Bulgaria is too OP from the last time I checked. They were an insignificant Kingdom on the outskirts of the great Byzantine Civilization, why they continue to be such a threat I have no idea. The AI Bulgaria should be like the Incas or Mali in RFC, weak and ready to surrender. We should see Bulgaria as vassals of the Byzantines more often.


Bulgaria was OP because without the Theodosian Walls they could get Constantinople, however, the walls are already back. Turkish AI does overtake Bulgaria, it is just taking too long.

On the same note, why would you think Bulgarian AI should be weak? Basil II was the only Byzantine Emperor to ever win a major war with Bulgaria, for the most time that those existed, the Byzantines were paying annual tax to Bulgaria and the only time Vassalage was involved was when Ivan Asen II vassalized the Latin Empire (holding Constantinople at the time).

At the time of the Turks, Bulgaria should collapse (or be near collapse), as this was the main reason why the Ottomans were not challenged during the conquest.

As for Arabia, the tech rate weakened the Crusades and hence strengthened Arabia to the point where they are currently OP. I am working on a solution.


Out of curiosity what are you planning to do with that?


The more ahistroc time you choose to research a tech, the more the tech would cost. Meaning that it will be very hard to get too far ahead in tech.


Oh cool! I heard that you guys were planning to use Edead's province idea, but I'm happy its following through. If you need any help with provinces in certain areas just contact me at: the.turkciv@gmail.com

PS. Adding salt to Anatolia will make the Byzantines just as powerful as the Turks. And yes just like in every other game I've played including the Ottomans and Byzantines (RFC, DoC, SoI), the Ottomans EVENTUALLY take over the crumbling Byzantine Empire (except if the Byzantine is Human)

We don't use edead's system exactly, just the idea of it (the mechanics work differently). Currently the Ottomans have no trouble conquering Constantinople, they do it too early if anything. Adding salt is a minor issue, compared to the "heated" discussion it seems to spark. We will add it eventually, it is just currently a low priority.

Bulgaria was OP because without the Theodosian Walls they could get Constantinople, however, the walls are already back. Turkish AI does overtake Bulgaria, it is just taking too long.
Ya I guess thats true, but I don't play that long into games usually. But yes, like in SoI some civ's should just collapse at a certain point once they've overreached their historical time limit. But just for the AI of course.


On the same note, why would you think Bulgarian AI should be weak? Basil II was the only Byzantine Emperor to ever win a major war with Bulgaria, for the most time that those existed, the Byzantines were paying annual tax to Bulgaria and the only time Vassalage was involved was when Ivan Asen II vassalized the Latin Empire (holding Constantinople at the time).
Ok, I've studied a lot about the Byzantines and therefore learned a lot about Bulgarian history too. First off the only two considerable Bulgarian incursions into Byzantine lands was first with Khan Krum in 813 and later in the 10th century with Tsar Simeon (who even besieged the city). After that with Basil II the Bulgar Slayer, who subjected the Bulgarians to Byzantine rule for many years. Never again would the Bulgarian Empire rise to power, hence the weak Bulgaria.


At the time of the Turks, Bulgaria should collapse (or be near collapse), as this was the main reason why the Ottomans were not challenged during the conquest.
Yes I agree the Bulgarians should have passed their "civ death rate"


As for Arabia, the tech rate weakened the Crusades and hence strengthened Arabia to the point where they are currently OP. I am working on a solution.
I think the problem with displaying the Middle East as a unified entity is ABSOLUTELY wrong! Just play SoI and you'll see that that is false. There should be the Zengids or Egyptians. Basically to add extra something to challenge the Arab hegemony.

The more ahistroc time you choose to research a tech, the more the tech would cost. Meaning that it will be very hard to get too far ahead in tech.
YES! Thats such a good idea! :goodjob:
Definitely can't wait to see it work!


[QUOTE=3Miro;10204255]Adding salt is a minor issue, compared to the "heated" discussion it seems to spark. We will add it eventually, it is just currently a low priority.
Ok seriously if you don't want to add the extra salt just don't, I REALLY don't care. So can we please stop worrying about have a salt resource there.

Ok, I've studied a lot about the Byzantines and therefore learned a lot about Bulgarian history too. First off the only two considerable Bulgarian incursions into Byzantine lands was first with Khan Krum in 813 and later in the 10th century with Tsar Simeon (who even besieged the city). After that with Basil II the Bulgar Slayer, who subjected the Bulgarians to Byzantine rule for many years. Never again would the Bulgarian Empire rise to power, hence the weak Bulgaria.


All of Moesia was Byzantine until Khan Asparuh made his country there in 680AD. From that point on, there was almost constant expansion (Krum and Simeon were just the most notable names). As for the Second Bulgarian Empire, here are some references:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Asen_I_of_Bulgaria

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaloyan_of_Bulgaria

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Asen_II_of_Bulgaria

(note that during the reign of Kaloyan and Ivan Asen II there was no Byzantium, hence you cannot learn about them from Byzantine textbooks)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Alexander_of_Bulgaria

(the sons of that last one broke Bulgaria into three leading to an easy conquest for the Turks, but Alexander himself was strong)


I think the problem with displaying the Middle East as a unified entity is ABSOLUTELY wrong! Just play SoI and you'll see that that is false. There should be the Zengids or Egyptians. Basically to add extra something to challenge the Arab hegemony.


This is not SoI, we represent Europe here, meaning that nations like Russia, Turkey and the Arabs will have a skewed representation. We don't represent Russia - Kazan wars, we don't represent the Arab-Egyptian wars and so on. We concentrate on the Arab-European wars (Byzantines and Crusaders), we concentrate on the Russian - Swedish - Polish - Lithuanian (as opposed to the conquest of Siberia) wars and we represent the Ottoman conquest of South-Eastern Europe (as opposed to the conquest of Arabia).

Turkey only needs to have the POTENTIAL to do these things, Turk.
The point of this mod is to be based somewhat on history, but not a slave to it...

Who would ever want to play Byzantium, for example, if every time the Turks could overrun Constantinople... when it took them how many centuries to do so?
Imagine if that greedy german fellow hadn't made the huge cannon for the Turks? Imagine if the Byzantines had maneuvered differently here or there?

Ottoman power was not a foregone conclusion at the time. The fact that it took as long as it did to stop them is actually based more on their unity in the face of fledgling European nation states being jealous and treacherous to each other... Much like how the Crusaders managed to take Jerusalem... their enemy was divided.

*snip*
The more ahistorical a time you choose to research a tech, the more the tech would cost. Meaning that it will be very hard to get too far ahead in tech.



We don't use edead's system exactly, just the idea of it (the mechanics work differently). Currently the Ottomans have no trouble conquering Constantinople, they do it too early if anything. Adding salt is a minor issue, compared to the "heated" discussion it seems to spark. We will add it eventually, it is just currently a low priority.
Are you suggesting I wont be able to finish the tech tree in 1500? :thumbsdown:

Also when you implement the province could you make it easy to see if it is core, border or whatever?
Turkey only needs to have the POTENTIAL to do these things, Turk.
The point of this mod is to be based somewhat on history, but not a slave to it...

Who would ever want to play Byzantium, for example, if every time the Turks could overrun Constantinople... when it took them how many centuries to do so?
Imagine if that greedy german fellow hadn't made the huge cannon for the Turks? Imagine if the Byzantines had maneuvered differently here or there?

Ottoman power was not a foregone conclusion at the time. The fact that it took as long as it did to stop them is actually based more on their unity in the face of fledgling European nation states being jealous and treacherous to each other... Much like how the Crusaders managed to take Jerusalem... their enemy was divided.
Yeah, the game wouldn't be fun if I couldn't curbstomp Turkey as the Bulgarians (well, it still would).

Are you suggesting I wont be able to finish the tech tree in 1500? :thumbsdown:


It will be virtually impossible. Also, making empires that span from the Atlantic to Russia to the Middle-East will also be impossible.


Also when you implement the province could you make it easy to see if it is core, border or whatever?


Already done.

Already done.

In my Spanish game, the tiles around my capital are named unstable. I don't think that is supposed to happen.

In the same game, Turkey managed to conquer Byzantium, but Byzantium is still alive, and they are NOT unstable! But don't worry, I think it's a one-time off.

In my Spanish game, the tiles around my capital are named unstable. I don't think that is supposed to happen.

In the same game, Turkey managed to conquer Byzantium, but Byzantium is still alive, and they are NOT unstable! But don't worry, I think it's a one-time off.

That's what happens when you play an svn version of the game. I suspect a Python module or two failed. The new stability isn't in yet anyway, so "Stable" and "Unstable" have no effect yet.

When you play fromt eh svn, can please keep an eye on PythonErr2.log file (in My Games\Beyond the Sword\Logs). Look at the bottom of the file for any errors, so I can fix them. Also, you can turn logging on from CivilizationIV.ini and then keep track of PythonErr.log (this file should be empty at all times).

I will run through all the civs in the ProvinceManager.py tonight
That will probably fix the spanish province bug too
Btw 3Miro, I noticed you use the same key for both Galicia's there. It's xml.iP_Galicia for both the spanish, and the polish-ruthenian one.
This may cause some problems too

I will run through all the civs in the ProvinceManager.py tonight
That will probably fix the spanish province bug too
Btw 3Miro, I noticed you use the same key for both Galicia's there. It's xml.iP_Galicia for both the spanish, and the polish-ruthenian one.
This may cause some problems too

Yes this would cause trouble. The second key would overwrite the first and we will end up without a way to reference one of the provinces. One key for each province and the keys have to be unique.

Good you caught that.

When updating the civs I will also take care of renaming those in the ProvinceManager file
Just post me what's the new name of those keys in the dll
(this is just a key, so IMO xml.iP_SpanishGalicia and xml.iP_PolishGalicia will work, even if they are not accurate namings)

True true, currently the Ottomans need to be able to take Arabia and Bulgaria which they usually are not able to do at the moment. Also Bulgaria is too OP from the last time I checked. They were an insignificant Kingdom on the outskirts of the great Byzantine Civilization, why they continue to be such a threat I have no idea. The AI Bulgaria should be like the Incas or Mali in RFC, weak and ready to surrender. We should see Bulgaria as vassals of the Byzantines more often.
Just stepping in to second 3Miro's comment on that. Bulgaria was highly developed during their First Empire until roughly 1000 AD, both culturally and militarily. Basil II isn't among the most well known Byzantine Emperors for conquering an "insignificant kingdom", but rather for accomplishing the unlikely feat of uniting the disorganized, so-called "great Byzantine Civilization" and turning a not improbable defeat into a complete victory.

Who would ever want to play Byzantium, for example, if every time the Turks could overrun Constantinople... when it took them how many centuries to do so?
Imagine if that greedy german fellow hadn't made the huge cannon for the Turks? Imagine if the Byzantines had maneuvered differently here or there?
Well, that cannon didn't accomplish much in 1453 other than compensating Mehmed II's "assets" ;)

Just stepping in to second 3Miro's comment on that. Bulgaria was highly developed during their First Empire until roughly 1000 AD, both culturally and militarily. Basil II isn't among the most well known Byzantine Emperors for conquering an "insignificant kingdom", but rather for accomplishing the unlikely feat of uniting the disorganized, so-called "great Byzantine Civilization" and turning a not improbable defeat into a complete victory.

Yep, also agreed with 3Miro
Bulgaria should be powerful during both the First and Second Bulgarian Empire
They should be a serious threat to Byzantium in both cases

Between the 2 Bulgarian Empires and after the Second one they should be much weaker though.
The best would be if some of their outer cities would flip during this, so we should change all of their non-core provinces unstable for those years.

PS:
@kochman: that greedy fellow was not german, but hungarian :blush:

Between the 2 Bulgarian Empires and after the Second one they should be much weaker though.
The best would be if some of their outer cities would flip during this, so we should change all of their non-core provinces unstable for those years.

Even if they collapse after the First Bulgarian Empire due to bad stability in a few cases, it's not a problem.
We should add a likely respawn date around 1185-90 (Ivan Asev)

Even if they collapse after the First Bulgarian Empire due to bad stability in a few cases, it's not a problem.
We should add a likely respawn date around 1185-90 (Ivan Asev)

That is already in the code, sedna put it in the Alphas if not earlier.

PS:
@kochman: that greedy fellow was not german, but hungarian :blush:
That's right, you are correct... I forgot.
Well, I guess Hungary paid the price for that in the future...

Again, it didn't really matter.

hay all im having a bit of an issue with rfce crashing lots like every 10-15 turns.
im really liking playing it tho (playing it on bts 3.19)

hay all im having a bit of an issue with rfce crashing lots like every 10-15 turns.
im really liking playing it tho (playing it on bts 3.19)

Other people are reporting similar behavior on low end graphics machines. What is your graphics card?

Next version will hopefully contain a "light" version for people with weaker video cards.

forget my last post im downloading beta 6 as i type

geforce 9600 gt

ps i was disappointed not to find a Scottish civ in this mod i think it might of added some depth to the north west of the map

All of Moesia was Byzantine until Khan Asparuh made his country there in 680AD. From that point on, there was almost constant expansion (Krum and Simeon were just the most notable names). As for the Second Bulgarian Empire, here are some references:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Asen_I_of_Bulgaria

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaloyan_of_Bulgaria

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Asen_II_of_Bulgaria

(note that during the reign of Kaloyan and Ivan Asen II there was no Byzantium, hence you cannot learn about them from Byzantine textbooks)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Alexander_of_Bulgaria

(the sons of that last one broke Bulgaria into three leading to an easy conquest for the Turks, but Alexander himself was strong)

Ok, well those people are not well known because they never threatened Byzantium at all. The reason we know Khan Krum and Tsar Simeon so well, is because they actually threatened the eternal city. And as for the other strong Bulgarian leaders, it seems they only arose when Constantinople was under control from the Crusaders.


This is not SoI, we represent Europe here, meaning that nations like Russia, Turkey and the Arabs will have a skewed representation. We don't represent Russia - Kazan wars, we don't represent the Arab-Egyptian wars and so on. We concentrate on the Arab-European wars (Byzantines and Crusaders), we concentrate on the Russian - Swedish - Polish - Lithuanian (as opposed to the conquest of Siberia) wars and we represent the Ottoman conquest of South-Eastern Europe (as opposed to the conquest of Arabia).
Yes of course I know that! :lol:
But I would like to see more European events in general. You said you couldn't break Arabia, so I'm telling you a possible way you can do it. You should consider therefore adding in more barbs, and having Arabia collapse sooner into separate independent states. You could have a weaker Arabia respawn (coded in) in Egypt, which would not be as strong. Thats my suggestion, nothing more nothing less.

Ok, well those people are not well known because they never threatened Byzantium at all. The reason we know Khan Krum and Tsar Simeon so well, is because they actually threatened the eternal city. And as for the other strong Bulgarian leaders, it seems they only arose when Constantinople was under control from the Crusaders.


Asen I lead the successful rebellion ten years before the Crusaders and Kaloyan is very famous among Crusader historians, just not Byzantine ones. Ivan Asen II did make two attempts to take Constantinople from the Crusaders. Ivan Alexander died right before the Ottoman invasion. At any rate, the Second Bulgarian Empire was a superpower in the region.


Yes of course I know that! :lol:
But I would like to see more European events in general. You said you couldn't break Arabia, so I'm telling you a possible way you can do it. You should consider therefore adding in more barbs, and having Arabia collapse sooner into separate independent states. You could have a weaker Arabia respawn (coded in) in Egypt, which would not be as strong. Thats my suggestion, nothing more nothing less.

If we strengthen the Crusades, Arabia should collapse. We can then code the respawn in Egypt.

Ah, bon! Finally some positive attention on Byzantium! :)

The problem with Bulgaria is that when they are too strong, and they already are, they almost always gobbles up Constantinople. IF that is okay with you guys, you might also be interested to know that a strong Bulgaria almost always hinders the growth of Venice and Hungary. As was observed in Beta 5.

Yes it is my sincere belief that had it not been for that greedy Hungarian guy the Ottomans would never have taken this city ;)

hay all im having a bit of an issue with rfce crashing lots like every 10-15 turns.
im really liking playing it tho (playing it on bts 3.19)

Yeah I was having similar issues, lots of crashes (usually when I was moving workers oddly). But now with beta 6 I haven't had as many issues not sure why...

That's right, you are correct... I forgot.
Well, I guess Hungary paid the price for that in the future...

Yes it is my sincere belief that had it not been for that greedy Hungarian guy the Ottomans would never have taken this city ;)

Agreed
Worst decision ever :(

I love the Byzantine civilization as well, but it just seems they are usually way overestimated by everyone.
Ok, well those people are not well known because they never threatened Byzantium at all. The reason we know Khan Krum and Tsar Simeon so well, is because they actually threatened the eternal city. And as for the other strong Bulgarian leaders, it seems they only arose when Constantinople was under control from the Crusaders.
How should they threaten Byzantium at all, when it didn't exist at that time? :confused:
Quite abviously the resurgence of the Second Empire was furthered by Byzantium's collapse after the fourth crusade, but that's kind of an unfair argument because all of Byzantium's successes were for lucky external factors as well (the Komnenian resurgence wouldn't have worked without the crusades, for instance).

Ah, bon! Finally some positive attention on Byzantium! :)

The problem with Bulgaria is that when they are too strong, and they already are, they almost always gobbles up Constantinople. IF that is okay with you guys, you might also be interested to know that a strong Bulgaria almost always hinders the growth of Venice and Hungary. As was observed in Beta 5.

Yes it is my sincere belief that had it not been for that greedy Hungarian guy the Ottomans would never have taken this city ;)
Sincere belief or not, the cannon didn't accomplish anything.

Imo, it is fine for the Bulgarians to sometimes conquer Constantinople. They came close to it a few times, so there should be this alt-history possibility. It's not like it's only the Ottomans who have the magic ability to defeat them. But I'm worried that Bulgaria defeats them too often as well.

I agree with Leoreth, a bit of alt-history is good as well. Having a powerful Bulgarian Empire oppose the Turks would be nice sometimes.

Anyway, I have an issue in the latest rev. For some reason, it seems stability doesn't work anymore. I started a game as the Arabs and it all worked fine. I launched my savegame today and stability doesn't work anymore (throwing python exceptions each turn about "rfcestab" not being defined). I looked into the python files and it seems that would only happen if the setup() part of Stability.py never took place, but I don't understand why it wouldn't.

Anyway, I have an issue in the latest rev. For some reason, it seems stability doesn't work anymore. I started a game as the Arabs and it all worked fine. I launched my savegame today and stability doesn't work anymore (throwing python exceptions each turn about "rfcestab" not being defined). I looked into the python files and it seems that would only happen if the setup() part of Stability.py never took place, but I don't understand why it wouldn't.

Just like savegames are usually not compatible between different Beta versions, savegames are often incompatible between different svn revisions. If you update to the latest SVN version, you should always start a new game.

On another note, with the return of the Theodosian walls, Bulgaria doesn't take Constantinople (at least I have not seen it, so if it happens it is rare).

No, I didn't update between. I update yesterday, then played a bit, then saved and went to sleep. I went back to my saved game today and stability wasn't working anymore. I don't remember doing anything with the files though.

No, I didn't update between. I update yesterday, then played a bit, then saved and went to sleep. I went back to my saved game today and stability wasn't working anymore. I don't remember doing anything with the files though.

That is odd, I will investigate.

Sincere belief or not, the cannon didn't accomplish anything

That is correct. During the final assault the Venetians or Lukas Notaras opened the Kerkoporta attacking gate to the Ottomans, who poured over the city from there.

EDIT: i love Austria's music! Someone tell me the name of it? Its soooo familiar but i just couldnt give a name to it...

No one's gonna tell me what Austria's music is? Im a big classical fan, i need to know but i cant possibly go through all of Mozart's works...

No one's gonna tell me what Austria's music is? Im a big classical fan, i need to know but i cant possibly go through all of Mozart's works...

Dude, just open up Assets/Sounds/Diplomacy and look for it (Maria, I'm guessing), its really not that difficult to do :clap:

He does know that. He want the name of the original.

He does know that. He want the name of the original.
Than just run it through Shazam, or some other application like that.

No one's gonna tell me what Austria's music is? Im a big classical fan, i need to know but i cant possibly go through all of Mozart's works...

Serenade In G Major KV 525 "Eine Kleine Nachtmusik":
afaik it is in 4 parts,
Part I: Allegro
Part II: Romanze
Part III: Menuetto
Part IV: Rondo (the one you're looking for)

if you mean austria theme.mp3

Serenade In G Major KV 525 "Eine Kleine Nachtmusik":
afaik it is in 4 parts,
Part I: Allegro
Part II: Romanze
Part III: Menuetto
Part IV: Rondo (the one you're looking for)

if you mean austria theme.mp3

THANK YOU!! I <3 Germans

PS ohh Part 1 is the most famous movement...

EDIT: That reminds me, i think Germany needs better music in the game. If u play Germany from the start (800 something AD) you only get to hear the medieval sounding music (Charlemange from non-RFC civ 4) throughout the entire game. Music is the no.1 reason i prefer playing Austria over Germany. Opera house is no.2. Im one of those players who likes to zoom into my cities once in a while.

THANK YOU!! I <3 Germans

PS ohh Part 1 is the most famous movement...

EDIT: That reminds me, i think Germany needs better music in the game. If u play Germany from the start (800 something AD) you only get to hear the medieval sounding music (Charlemange from non-RFC civ 4) throughout the entire game. Music is the no.1 reason i prefer playing Austria over Germany. Opera house is no.2. Im one of those players who likes to zoom into my cities once in a while.

i'm american btw :p

i'm american btw :p

"Location: Germany"

Sorry, how was i supposed to know HAHA

Whatever, you know your classical music, i <3 people who do :)

ok i played england on the last version and its still really flawed. they have serious tech problems for about 300 years (like 20-30 science a turn max). I think they should start with 1-2 more techs and moorland should be removed in wales and england (and maybe reduced in scotland)

EDIT: played a little more and there is absolutely no way I'm going to take Paris. Even with the plague, there are still over 10 units on the city. unbelievable.

With Englands unique power in combination of the civic which gives one extra hammer for workshop England is a power house. And when you get steam power...

With Englands unique power in combination of the civic which gives one extra hammer for workshop England is a power house. And when you get steam power...

I don't think anyone is disputing that England has a huge production potential.
That has never been the issue afaik. The issue is commerce and an OP France imo.
If the French AI were somewhat capable they could easily crush England (AI or Player).
Knights vs Crossbowmen = dead Crossbowmen :D
Not to mention the high probability of France having Teutonic Knights or Knights Templar.

I've tried a 'cheating' approach too (preplay as France).
I sorta ruined France (war with everybody, bad economy, backwards in techs etc.) and built Calais and Caen very early including complete priority on those two cities.
But once the flip came something odd happened.. although France was nowhere near Chivalry (not even plate armor) they had Knights two turns later -.-
They must have mad peace and traded it in from someone..
I sometimes get the feeling that the AI might even be gifting techs to eachother

The AI does do things like that, I've had Byzantium, Rome, Germany, France all gift me techs at one time or the other, sometimes even fairly important ones (like Civil Service, Replaceable Parts or Drama)

and btw just thought of another thing
in normal RFC you couldn't trade a follow up tech in the same turn, now if your trading partner is nice enough and has the techs you could go from early medieval to industrial age in 1 turn.
it's nice enough when you get to jump ahead but I think that that might also be something to think about (it sure speeds up the overall tech rate if the AI trades smart)

I don't think anyone is disputing that England has a huge production potential.
That has never been the issue afaik. The issue is commerce and an OP France imo.
If the French AI were somewhat capable they could easily crush England (AI or Player).
Knights vs Crossbowmen = dead Crossbowmen :D
Not to mention the high probability of France having Teutonic Knights or Knights Templar.

I've tried a 'cheating' approach too (preplay as France).
I sorta ruined France (war with everybody, bad economy, backwards in techs etc.) and built Calais and Caen very early including complete priority on those two cities.
But once the flip came something odd happened.. although France was nowhere near Chivalry (not even plate armor) they had Knights two turns later -.-
They must have mad peace and traded it in from someone..
I sometimes get the feeling that the AI might even be gifting techs to eachother
The AI does do things like that, I've had Byzantium, Rome, Germany, France all gift me techs at one time or the other, sometimes even fairly important ones (like Civil Service, Replaceable Parts or Drama)

and btw just thought of another thing
in normal RFC you couldn't trade a follow up tech in the same turn, now if your trading partner is nice enough and has the techs you could go from early medieval to industrial age in 1 turn.
it's nice enough when you get to jump ahead but I think that that might also be something to think about (it sure speeds up the overall tech rate if the AI trades smart)

Are you sure those weren't mercenaries?

Are you sure those weren't mercenaries?

definately, mercs are easy to recognize ;)
besides the fact that they had chivalry (you can see which techs a civ is able to research in the diplomacy screen, therefore you can calculate which techs they have)

France did have gold, I forgot to gift that to the pope before the english spawn. I probably should've put espionage at 100% to slow down research instead of gold.
And they didn't build them but upgraded them from lancers.
It was only 2 knights I think and not so much a big deal, but the fact that they could build more of them was a problem.
And I simply left France still too powerful, next time they won't even get Tours. Second city will be Caen(if I ever try again)

In the new version coming today, nobody gets Chivalry in 1066AD. In fact, nobody gets it until late 1200.

that's the main problem. I spawn with 1-2 crossbows maybe some arbelestiers, where france descends upon Calais and Caen with knights (often times templars), macemen, arbelestier of their own, and trebuchets and I pretty much have to load all the units in england to france to protect those cities. It's extremely difficult to muster a large army to take their cities, cus armored lancers arent strong enough to take crossbows, and knights take forever to get with the english.

In addition their UP sucks, no one ever uses workshops. Several others and I have been asking for the power to changed to a +1 for towns (and possibly villages). After all it's the power of "cottage" economy.

that's the main problem. I spawn with 1-2 crossbows maybe some arbelestiers, where france descends upon Calais and Caen with knights (often times templars), macemen, arbelestier of their own, and trebuchets and I pretty much have to load all the units in england to france to protect those cities. It's extremely difficult to muster a large army to take their cities, cus armored lancers arent strong enough to take crossbows, and knights take forever to get with the english.

In addition their UP sucks, no one ever uses workshops. Several others and I have been asking for the power to changed to a +1 for towns (and possibly villages). After all it's the power of "cottage" economy.

How do you get production if not from the workshops? Cottage Economy is a historical reference, it is just an unfortunate coincidence that the name of the improvement is different, it actually corresponds to workshops.

At any rate, France no longer has Knights at the English spawn. They will be lucky if they get a few Heavy Lancers.

watermills mostly

normally i do watermills at every opportunity and then cottages wherever else. workshops give -1 food which im not crazy about. I guess I could build workshops but honestly I think they are just a flawed improvement. If we were to keep the current method, would you be ok with changing -1 food to a -1 health?

Is Beta 7 going to be released today?

The English UP takes a while to kick in and doesn't really happen until they have access to the rivers of France. In the end though they have production to equal the Levant and nearly the same gold income as the pure cottage solution .. the only "problem" is that to get the most out of it you are almost forced to use Caste system for a long time due to lack of rivers back home and the resulting health issues.

If tech is slowed so Chivalry doesn't come around until the 1200's, does that mean Austria will start without Chivalry or that they get a tech buffer like in the "old days"?

The English UP takes a while to kick in and doesn't really happen until they have access to the rivers of France. In the end though they have production to equal the Levant and nearly the same gold income as the pure cottage solution .. the only "problem" is that to get the most out of it you are almost forced to use Caste system for a long time due to lack of rivers back home and the resulting health issues.

If tech is slowed so Chivalry doesn't come around until the 1200's, does that mean Austria will start without Chivalry or that they get a tech buffer like in the "old days"?

iirc Austria's spawn date will be changed to 12xx

iirc Austria's spawn date will be changed to 12xx

Shouldn't it be changed to 1559 (the death of Charles V), because that was when the Holy Roman Empire split up between Charles' son Phillip II in Spain and Charles' brother in Austria? It would make more sense that way, due to the fact that before then the region of Austria was under the control of the Holy Roman Empire, which IMO, is not represented at ALL very well. There should be a Holy Roman Empire civilization and a Prussian civilization.

Shouldn't it be changed to 1559 (the death of Charles V), because that was when the Holy Roman Empire split up between Charles' son Phillip II in Spain and Charles' brother in Austria? It would make more sense that way, due to the fact that before then the region of Austria was under the control of the Holy Roman Empire, which IMO, is not represented at ALL very well. There should be a Holy Roman Empire civilization and a Prussian civilization.

- Prussia comes too late.
- We have a shift in HRE, originally it is Germany, later it is Hapsburg Austria. The Austrian spawn is associated with the beginning of the Hapsburg Rule. Germany in later years becomes Prussia.
- 1556 is way too late for Austria

It's an interesting thing to say the Archduchy of Austria was under control of the Holy Roman Empire before Charles V, when in fact it was rather the other way around ;)

It's an interesting thing to say the Archduchy of Austria was under control of the Holy Roman Empire before Charles V, when in fact it was rather the other way around ;)

*It was part of...

So what? It was part of the HRE right until its dissolution in 1806.

alright so back to England:

I still think we should have the power changed, because workshops just aren't that great, sure they give decent production but if you use them you can't really get an specialists due to the lack of food, and no real gold which becomes a huge problem later when other civs completely outtech you. England already has chronic science problems even when i do use cottage spam, and the AI is constantly many techs behind because they only build workshops and never get any gold

The obvious would be to grant their villages/towns 1:hammers:. Not sure how that would turn out.

Well, free peasantry and limited monarchy are already a bit OP and that would make it worse.

good point, rivered towns would have 3 production then..

what about workshops get +1 food? cus otherwise AI england gets absolutely no specialists and low science (perhaps deemphasize the importance of production because I often seen a london with complete workshop spam)

or something completely different, because right now it does NOT work. The AI is encouraged to get them so minimal science and no specialists are used.

Possiblities: something with colonies (Portugal already has this really)
upgrades for water units
power of parliament? (not sure what that would do)
something to do with making your own religion/free religion/puritanism

Well, free peasantry and limited monarchy are already a bit OP and that would make it worse.

I'd think it's only OP with Germany and France, but this all should change with the new version :)

But as long as things are changing.. wouldn't a sea-based/naval-based UP be more suiting for England? After all it was the Navy that gave them the chance to become more than a small unimportant kingdom on the fringes of Europe. Currently I don't think their Naval superiority is represented at all, even if their 'Golden Age' only started after they defeated the Spanish Armada.
But I had already suggested a change in UB, maybe that could be something Naval (additional trade route from harbor or something, which would coincide with the Norse UB I think though..)

But elsewise I's also be in favor of +1 Hammer to cottages rather than the workshops
or how about +1 commerce to workshops? :)
just for the sake of the idea..
But I don't think anyone would build them without the additional hammer.

good point, rivered towns would have 3 production then..


only after 'Steam Engine' and having built a specific building(which name currently eludes me.) which is only possible if the city is located on a river
and since that situation only kicks in quite late and only in specific locations I'd hardly concider it OP. (Only the Dutch can build their Dikes in any coastal city, elswise it's only in cities with rivers)

I will have to play couple of games with England, but workshops used to be powerful.

England should not get a Naval UP. Note that the map is essentially a Pangaea. The only nations that can potentially benefit from Naval UP are Genoa and Venice and even with them, other powers are better.

Then how about that power of Parliament idea, something to compensate lack of cash? Like you start with the Common Law civic? Or was that a hammer bonus? Dont remember right now...

Or maybe the civic Representation?

England should not get a Naval UP. Note that the map is essentially a Pangaea. The only nations that can potentially benefit from Naval UP are Genoa and Venice and even with them, other powers are better.
Agreed...
Some kind of bonus on building colonies would be appropriate... but then some other nations should also get that (Spain, Portugal, France, Holland... I actually think Holland and Portugal should to make up for their smaller "land based" size, meaning, restricted ability to build with hammers due to smaller kingdoms)...

On England, England was a rich country with much of the wealth coming from towns, but now they don't build them. While cottage economy was certainly seems to be a workshop thing it actually was large quantities of small scale production thus it merits being in villages and towns not workshops.

Well the Holland gets Protestantism, but it can't get a large discount due to its size, OTOH Portugal gets no discount, but has a little bit more production. So yes they do need boosts on projects.

Why not just give them a new UP. I understand why a ship promotion one won't work, although I still think it would be a better idea, why not give them a new UU, and change the UP to something like "Power of Archery" or "Bowmanship", giving each archer unit a Horseman and city defense bonus, and instead change their UU to redcoats or something along those lines. But as stated earlier, England's role in this game is surprisingly curtailed in many ways.

Why not just give them a new UP. I understand why a ship promotion one won't work, although I still think it would be a better idea, why not give them a new UU, and change the UP to something like "Power of Archery" or "Bowmanship", giving each archer unit a Horseman and city defense bonus, and instead change their UU to redcoats or something along those lines. But as stated earlier, England's role in this game is surprisingly curtailed in many ways.
In all fairness... England was not the powerhouse it became for most of the time span in the mod.

Why not just give them a new UP. I understand why a ship promotion one won't work, although I still think it would be a better idea, why not give them a new UU, and change the UP to something like "Power of Archery" or "Bowmanship", giving each archer unit a Horseman and city defense bonus, and instead change their UU to redcoats or something along those lines. But as stated earlier, England's role in this game is surprisingly curtailed in many ways.

The Redcoat comes to late to be a good UU. And I realy think their current UU is historical and it fits our mod well.

The Redcoat comes to late to be a good UU. And I realy think their current UU is historical and it fits our mod well.

Absolutely.

The point of the game with England is to make them into a superpower.

BTW merijn_v1 what was the issue with the text keys, when I was changing the interface I only changed the Financial advisor screen.

In all fairness... England was not the powerhouse it became for most of the time span in the mod.

First off, I am quite surprised that you unblocked me. And yes you are right, England was not the powerhouse at the beginning of the game, but it most definitely was starting in the 14th century against France and especially later in the game's time frame.

The Redcoat comes to late to be a good UU. And I realy think their current UU is historical and it fits our mod well.

Really? I was thinking 1700's, so that they would have 100 years of using them. But I understand what you mean. Are there any other good UU's? English Heavy Knight perhaps?

Really? I was thinking 1700's, so that they would have 100 years of using them. But I understand what you mean. Are there any other good UU's? English Heavy Knight perhaps?

IMO, the current one is the best UU for this mod.

IMO, the current one is the best UU for this mod.

Yes the UU is fine. I will need to play couple of games with them to see about the UP.

yeah their UU is fine (im actually not really a fan of their UB...) but the UP should be changed.

It's true they won't get limited monarchy for some time (especially with them starting with such low science, maybe this is lessened with new tech) and steam engines after a long while, but a lot of the areas in england are currently plagued with moorland (all over) and marsh (ireland) so honestly the +1 pro for towns (and villages possibly) wouldn't be that overpowered until they get steam engines (im guessing around 15-16?). Remember london has no hills, wales has hills but no food (gotta windmill it) exeter has some hills but cant get a levee, etc...

When you look at it, there really aren't that many possible "super town spots" (town on river), i count about 12 in all of UK (ignoring wales) compared to germany or france which easily have 30+. Honestly they need that production boost (with the cottage to maintain science) to survive.

How about we try it with the next version? (and maybe consider removing some moorland!)

Isn't it possible to attach "+1g on land tiles" to something like the Manor House?

It obsoletes with Divine Right which should come around at the time the push against France goes down so it would be applicable for the isles only more or less.

PS: The UU is god-like, don't change it: Extra first strikes, extra bonus against horse, upgrades to muskets and is historically relevant .. what more could you want :D

Isn't it possible to attach "+1g on land tiles" to something like the Manor House?

It obsoletes with Divine Right which should come around at the time the push against France goes down so it would be applicable for the isles only more or less.

PS: The UU is god-like, don't change it: Extra first strikes, extra bonus against horse, upgrades to muskets and is historically relevant .. what more could you want :D

It already produces +2:gold: in the city. If we add extra :commerce: or :gold: to every land tile, it would become way, way too powerful.

It already produces +2:gold: in the city. If we add extra :commerce: or :gold: to every land tile, it would become way, way too powerful.

Don't forget that Manorialis already gives +1 :commerce: for Farms.

+2 :gold: per city and +2 :commerce: per Farm ... with the added specialists from the extra food. :crazyeye:

So you expect the AI/People to stay with that god awful civic using nothing but farms in the most happiness, health and production deprived part of the map? You'd get run over in a heartbeat by the healthy and happy cottage farms on the continent.
It is almost "first man to education wins" as it is so not sure adding a little more life to the obsoleted civics is a bad thing .. maybe just me :D

What about giving them the ability to leverage their superior production by making the Guildhall the UB and giving cities with it extra value of hammers when building science or gold?

Guilds/Merchants did more or less rule England (early Parliament) for the better part of the scope of the mod so would even be 'fairly' accurate historically.

So you expect the AI/People to stay with that god awful civic using nothing but farms in the most happiness, health and production deprived part of the map? You'd get run over in a heartbeat by the healthy and happy cottage farms on the continent.
It is almost "first man to education wins" as it is so not sure adding a little more life to the obsoleted civics is a bad thing .. maybe just me :D

What about giving them the ability to leverage their superior production by making the Guildhall the UB and giving cities with it extra value of hammers when building science or gold?

Guilds/Merchants did more or less rule England (early Parliament) for the better part of the scope of the mod so would even be 'fairly' accurate historically.

2 Cottages = 4 food about 8 commerce. 2 Farms = 6 food + 4 commerce + 2 hammers (from Serfdom) + 1 specialist, gold/beakers/Golden Age/Light-bulb. To that you can add the Manor House gold bonus, which in early game offsets the loss of trade route.

Furthermore, Plague kills towns, but not farms. Cottages are not nearly as powerful as in BtS.

Healthy and Happy inhabitants of the continent? Remember that England is supposed to conquer France, so for the most part you should be running on two Empires.

I am not saying we shouldn't change the UP, I haven't played a game with England yet, it is just that the math isn't adding up.

Guild as UB is definitely good. We need to change the British UB anyway. We can make it a Guildhall without health penalty, or Guildhall with extra free merchant (that may be OP), science or gold building bonus would be interesting too.

2 Cottages = 4 food about 8 commerce. 2 Farms = 6 food + 4 commerce + 2 hammers (from Serfdom) + 1 specialist, gold/beakers/Golden Age/Light-bulb. To that you can add the Manor House gold bonus, which in early game offsets the loss of trade route.

Furthermore, Plague kills towns, but not farms. Cottages are not nearly as powerful as in BtS.

Healthy and Happy inhabitants of the continent? Remember that England is supposed to conquer France, so for the most part you should be running on two Empires.

I am not saying we shouldn't change the UP, I haven't played a game with England yet, it is just that the math isn't adding up.

Guild as UB is definitely good. We need to change the British UB anyway. We can make it a Guildhall without health penalty, or Guildhall with extra free merchant (that may be OP), science or gold building bonus would be interesting too.

I also like the idea about changing their UB to Guild Hall. If the bonus shouldn't be a free merchant (which I'd favor, they need something OP currently to compensate imo)
or maybe 2 beakers, 2 gold added to the guild hall (maybe with apprenticeship?)

And please don't forget about small little Portugal :)
I quit the last game when it became too depressing..
They just suck in so many ways xD

Just brainstorming for the new English UB:

A guildhall without :yuck: penalty and +10%:hammers:

Just brainstorming for the new English UB:

A guildhall without :yuck: penalty and +10%:hammers:

No :yuck: means more :food: which means more specialists. I don't know if we should go for the hammer bonus as well (OP?).

Portugal is on the todo list (along with Lithuania and every other nation).

So you expect the AI/People to stay with that god awful civic using nothing but farms in the most happiness, health and production deprived part of the map?

The place you're talking about isn't England :p

England: (excluding Scotland, Ireland & Normandy)
Health: 2x Cow, 2x Fish, 1x Clam, 1x Barley, 1x Deer
Happiness: 3x Sheep, 1x Dye
Production: 1x Stone, 1x Horse, 1x Iron, 2x Copper

Portugal: (excluding North Africa & Atlantic Islands)
Health: 1x Pig, 1x Fish, 1-2x Crab
Happiness: 1-2x Wine, 0-1x Honey (I'm not sure it's worth that extra city with 0 room)
Production: 1x Iron, 1x Horse, 1x Timber
Whale is also possibly available but comes late for one (Optics) and getting it is similar to the Honey situation.

England furthermore has a better chance at adding the resources from the excluded areas. (Scotland is usually barbs=autowin)

No :yuck: means more :food: which means more specialists. I don't know if we should go for the hammer bonus as well (OP?).

Portugal is on the todo list (along with Lithuania and every other nation).


No :yuck: would only equal to 1 food/city, not really much imo
not even a bonus, just no penalty like others

I thought Guildhall gives +2 :yuck:, one is too little for a bonus.

Why are you excluding the Atlantic Islands and North-West Africa? You are supposed to settle there for the UHV anyway?

No :yuck: means more :food: which means more specialists. I don't know if we should go for the hammer bonus as well (OP?).

Portugal is on the todo list (along with Lithuania and every other nation).

IIRC, England doesn't have much food to grow large. (Many tiles are hills, and the farm-able tiles don't have a river, so you'll have to wait quite some time to farm them) But they have a huge production. So the extra production isn't very good indeed.

I thought Guildhall gives +2 :yuck:, one is too little for a bonus.

Why are you excluding the Atlantic Islands and North-West Africa? You are supposed to settle there for the UHV anyway?

Because they aren't something you have from the start, you need to get past Cordoba and build several cities.
England gets even more if you add Scotland and Normandy which they pretty much have from the start.
If I had added those areas, I'd have to add France's resources to England (it's their UHV too)

It was supposed to be a comparision of the starting situation more or less
it's just that imo England isn't the worst place in the world concidering the terrain
I don't even find the moorland to be negative, it gives good production..
Scotland/Wales are a bit low on food but I think that's somewhat fitting
And Edinburgh is pretty ok imo.

all buildings except the Textile Mill give 1 :yuck: (those that do add :yuck:)

For starting situation England is definitely not the worst place. The Dutch are by far the worst, they only get about 10-15 land tiles and two cities may or may not flip to you.

In the hands of the Human, you should have all of France. In the hands of the AI, they don't seem too weak.

alright I suppose changing the UP would make them overpowered. I still think England would need a little boost. I propose that at least 5 moorland tiles be converted to grassland, especially with wales and england. Sure the human will do well enough once they conquer France but the human should be strong in nearly every civ. What I'm concerned about is a weak AI, and perhaps the moorland changes will give them that boost they need.

alright I suppose changing the UP would make them overpowered. I still think England would need a little boost. I propose that at least 5 moorland tiles be converted to grassland, especially with wales and england. Sure the human will do well enough once they conquer France but the human should be strong in nearly every civ. What I'm concerned about is a weak AI, and perhaps the moorland changes will give them that boost they need.

Generate several Dutch starts (i.e. start with the Dutch and let the game autoplay). When you spawn, you can take a look at how weak England is.

I can confirm that both Venice and the Arabs begin the game with their first UHV declared "failed".

I can confirm that both Venice and the Arabs begin the game with their first UHV declared "failed".

Venice was found and fixed for the next version, however, are you sure about Arabia. I just started a game with Arabia and played 10 turns or so ... no problem

When I look at the religion advisor the religions were founded in TXT_KEY_AGE_[stuff]

Maybe I have a bad install, I just started the Norse and I have the same problem.

The first Muscovy UHV also says 'failed' on spawn.

The first Muscovy UHV also says 'failed' on spawn.

Do you have a save from the Autoruns right before you spawn?

I guess it's just more of my tough luck, but yesterday I got the feeling the AI was trying testing how much I'm willing to take xD

Playing Germany on Monarch..
everythings just fine :)
Up until the first Crusade(I won), well Arabia collapsed 1 turn before my troops arrived so they got scattered all over Hungary :(
Oh well nevermind, I'll take them to Constantinopel(Byzantine is OP anyway)
Another crusade was called while I was whacking down those walls(I won), Venice took over and captured the city :crazyeye: (Venice is my Vassal)
Ok, not giving up yet.. march towards Jerusalem.. Byzantium collapses when I came near Antiochia, troops get pushed back to Constantinopel.
3. Crusade (I won again)... Spain takes over the crusade :(

At that point I stopped the game, elsewise I would've had to declare war on everybody and raze every damn town in Spain xD

There's still plenty of time for a 4th or 5th crusade (late 1100's)
but somehow I get the feeling that they won't work out either^^

The point being.. tough luck/bad timing or should the Crusaders of the 1st Crusade arive at Jerusalem despite the Arabian collapse?

I'm not sure but I think I read about a situation like that in a previous version, but I have no idea where/when/how. (just something about crusades and collapsing arabia)

I should run a second check on the Crusade arrival. If Jerusalem changes ownership in the mean time, you should be able to declare war on the new owner automatically (As opposed to scattering your troops).

Venice trying to capture Constantinople is fine, however, the question is did Spain take over the crusade financially? If Venice buys the second Crusade, Spain shouldn't be able to buy the third (they should wait for the fourth at the earliest). Also, why are you saying you have to destroy stuff in Iberia, if Spain buys the crusade, they will control the units and use them against Cordoba.

I should run a second check on the Crusade arrival. If Jerusalem changes ownership in the mean time, you should be able to declare war on the new owner automatically (As opposed to scattering your troops).

Venice trying to capture Constantinople is fine, however, the question is did Spain take over the crusade financially? If Venice buys the second Crusade, Spain shouldn't be able to buy the third (they should wait for the fourth at the earliest). Also, why are you saying you have to destroy stuff in Iberia, if Spain buys the crusade, they will control the units and use them against Cordoba.

yep, financial takeover
that's what made it somewhat frustrating, I won 3 crusades but not really
the intent behind destruction was revenge for annoying me :) I would've killed Venice too, but you can't do that to Vassals
(having a fit like a spoiled medieval king that has been insulted by an envoy, kill the envoy and declare war)

I have no idea about the timing between the crusades, but I found that the 2nd came pretty early after the 1st
Are they based on fixed dates or so? (if Jerusalem is not owned by a cath civ)

The part with Venice was ok, but they deceived me :) (naughty vassal)
I hadn't noticed that they had done a financial takeover so I was expecting to get a 2nd crusader army the next turns
The Venetian crusader Army was attacking from the other side(not visible to me), so I didn't know what was going on until they suddenly captured it after I had done most of the work.
btw can you get 2 such armies?(don't see a reason why not)

Do you have a save from the Autoruns right before you spawn?

Unfortunately no, but I launch a muscovy game to see if the same thing happens.

yep, financial takeover
that's what made it somewhat frustrating, I won 3 crusades but not really
the intent behind destruction was revenge for annoying me :) I would've killed Venice too, but you can't do that to Vassals
(having a fit like a spoiled medieval king that has been insulted by an envoy, kill the envoy and declare war)

I have no idea about the timing between the crusades, but I found that the 2nd came pretty early after the 1st
Are they based on fixed dates or so? (if Jerusalem is not owned by a cath civ)

Two bugs then. You should have automatically declared war to the Indies when they got Jerusalem and Spain should not have taken the third Crusade. Will look into it.

When I look at the religion advisor the religions were founded in TXT_KEY_AGE_[stuff]

It's already noticed and fixed in the next version. Thanks anyway.

Two bugs then. You should have automatically declared war to the Indies when they got Jerusalem and Spain should not have taken the third Crusade. Will look into it.

sure I don't have a broken install or so? :)

sure I don't have a broken install or so? :)

For that one I am sure :lol:

just reloaded that game with Germany from yesterday
The financial takeover through Spain shows in 1173, but the one through Venice doesn't show up in the event log

edit:
1200AD Spain takes over again (financially 4th crusade, 2 in a row)

just reloaded that game with Germany from yesterday
The financial takeover through Spain shows in 1173, but the one through Venice doesn't show up in the event log

:eek2: I know what happened ... Venice did not use financial power to take over the Crusade, they won it by voting. There are 4 independent players and any indy city at any point can flip form one player to another. The Indy owner changed and the Venecial army that was supposed to spawn near Jerusalem spawned in the nearest "free" location, which was apparently close to Constantinople ... at least I think this is what happened.

Man you really are getting ultra strange scenarios, but it is good that you find those "issues".

Venetian... not Venecial...
Like the blinds.

just reloaded that game with Germany from yesterday
The financial takeover through Spain shows in 1173, but the one through Venice doesn't show up in the event log

edit:
1200AD Spain takes over again (financially 4th crusade, 2 in a row)

:eek2: I know what happened ... Venice did not use financial power to take over the Crusade, they won it by voting. There are 4 independent players and any indy city at any point can flip form one player to another. The Indy owner changed and the Venecial army that was supposed to spawn near Jerusalem spawned in the nearest "free" location, which was apparently close to Constantinople ... at least I think this is what happened.

Man you really are getting ultra strange scenarios, but it is good that you find those "issues".

Isn't it possible that Venice didn't win the crusade at all, just had a wandering unit on the other side of Constantinople and marched in when all the defences were down?
Were your vassal, so got in war with byzantium when you did...

The attacking units were knights, I'm not sure but I don't think they had Chivalry at the time
and if they didn't win, who did? there was a vote, and I voted for myself, I thought I had also seen that I had won but then things went south

but I won the 5th crusade now and got 10 knights 2 arm. lancers and the rest
and in the process, Al Eskandariah doesn't get renamed to Alexandria if Germany captures it
I liberated Gazahh to Venice.

The attacking units were knights, I'm not sure but I don't think they had Chivalry at the time
and if they didn't win, who did? there was a vote, and I voted for myself, I thought I had also seen that I had won but then things went south

You should get a log message on who won a Crusade.

You should get a log message on who won a Crusade.

I've never seen one, only the dow or if a financial takeover takes place

either it's the wrong log or not there
dow in 1227 , capture of Jerusalem in 1239 but no mentioning of a crusade

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/4589/civ4screenshot0009i.th.jpg (http://img262.imageshack.us/i/civ4screenshot0009i.jpg/)


initial arabian collapse in 1098 (1st crusade)
in 1149 Constantinopel captured by Venice(with Knights)
They were damn fast if the researched the tech, built knights and somehow moved them past Constantinople to attack from the east
I got Chivalry in 1188

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/8484/civ4screenshot0010.th.jpg (http://img207.imageshack.us/i/civ4screenshot0010.jpg/)

There is not even a "Pope has called for a Crusade" message.

There is not even a "Pope has called for a Crusade" message.

never has been anything like that as far as I can remember

I would've liked something like that in there but was never taht important to post something about it

for instance when you just simply clicked away those crusade messages but did want to know who won.. no chance(I generally find out at some point when I discover Jerusalem and it's french or whatever)

never has been anything like that as far as I can remember

I would've liked something like that in there but was never taht important to post something about it

for instance when you just simply clicked away those crusade messages but did want to know who won.. no chance(I generally find out at some point when I discover Jerusalem and it's french or whatever)

The autoruns are giving me "Crusader are leaving under the leadership of so and so to conquer such and such city..."

More stuff to look at.

I always have the crusade messages. "The Pope has called for a Crusade!" *event for joining* "Joan of Arc has won the right the lead the crusade!"

Just got a bit unlucky. :(

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10223619&postcount=2089

Just got a bit unlucky. :(

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10223619&postcount=2089

This is problem with Civ 4 mechanics. The same issues appears in some of AnotherPacifist's tutorials. For example, he had a way to settle a Viking city in America before discovering the tech to travel through oceans. Nothing to be done about it I am afraid.

ummm, does Germany have any natural predators at all? Like Burgundy/France, Austria/Hungary, Spain/Cordoba etc.?

They become scarily strong really fast, often overtaking the mighty French due to the latters English and Burgundian "disputes".

ummm, does Germany have any natural predators at all? Like Burgundy/France, Austria/Hungary, Spain/Cordoba etc.?

They become scarily strong really fast, often overtaking the mighty French due to the latters English and Burgundian "disputes".

Seems not really. We should probably aim Poland at them with Lithuania going after Moscow.

Historically most trouble was with France and the Pope + Lombard League.

I'd think that the Vikings/Norse/Denmark etc. caused some trouble as well

Seems not really. We should probably aim Poland at them with Lithuania going after Moscow.
Would have to be after Poland gets a buff, they start really slow and their survival seems to depend on the Austria/Hungary result and how well Kiev does against the Barbs. It is not uncommon to see Germany with 4-5x the Polish low-tech troops in 1350+ or the horde swarming in from the east.
Historically most trouble was with France and the Pope + Lombard League.
As much as I "love" the French, I am not sure piling another helping of militaristic civ on to their plate will do them or the mod any good :D

Edit: Is Lithuania supposed to start with none of the civics selected?

A very strange thing happened.

I was conquering Venice with my Templar Knights. Venice had just 1 unit left in the city. I attacked and won. But then, I couldn't move my remaining units in the city, because out of the blue, 2 more units were defending (in the meanwhile) MY city. Savegame (before I attacked) included. (NOTE: I play the at the most recent revision, except the new CvGameCore.dll from revision 579)

I'd think that the Vikings/Norse/Denmark etc. caused some trouble as well
With the Vikings of course, but that was over before the Ottonians became emperors. Denmark had some serious friction with the Hanseatic League during the Middle Ages, but I can't think of famous conflicts with the empire itself until the Thirty Years War.

A very strange thing happened.

I was conquering Venice with my Templar Knights. Venice had just 1 unit left in the city. I attacked and won. But then, I couldn't move my remaining units in the city, because out of the blue, 2 more units were defending (in the meanwhile) MY city. Savegame (before I attacked) included. (NOTE: I play the at the most recent revision, except the new CvGameCore.dll from revision 579)

:lmao: I love those ultra strange happenings that actually make perfect sense (in a way).

1. The tile where Venice is now used to be marshes (impassable for all but workers). It was hacked so that it will be passable for all Venetian units (AI is incompetent to move units by land and making the tile "passable" means they can get in and out by land.

2. When the tile was changes, I forgot to remove the code for the "strategic tile", so right now, any venetian unit can enter that tile bypassing any other checks (like who is currently occupying the tile).

3. Right before you conquer Venice, there are two Venetian units close to an Austrian city. When Venice falls, so does the culture around it, then Austrian culture takes over and the Venetian units are pushed to the nearest "passable" tile ... the tile is Venice itself.

Funny bug, very unlikely and fixable with a single # added before one line of code.

With the Vikings of course, but that was over before the Ottonians became emperors. Denmark had some serious friction with the Hanseatic League during the Middle Ages, but I can't think of famous conflicts with the empire itself until the Thirty Years War.

That was kinda my point, they weren't friends (Vikings were still pagans afterall)allthough the main focus of plundering by Vikings was in France and Britain.

That was kinda my point, they weren't friends (Vikings were still pagans afterall)allthough the main focus of plundering by Vikings was in France and Britain.
Except by the time the HRE (1150'ish) was up and running, we in Scandinavia were obedient little papal sock-puppets just like the rest of Europe. Just sayin' ;)

The Hanseatic "issue" was a good old fashioned trade dispute. Vikings were long gone but a lot of the trade network they established kept on ticking until the evil Germans started taxing stuff (aka. demanded tribute) :crazyeye:

Except by the time the HRE (1150'ish) was up and running, we in Scandinavia were obedient little papal sock-puppets just like the rest of Europe. Just sayin' ;)

The Hanseatic "issue" was a good old fashioned trade dispute. Vikings were long gone but a lot of the trade network they established kept on ticking until the evil Germans started taxing stuff (aka. demanded tribute) :crazyeye:

Cnut was a massive force in Christianizing Scandinavia

Except by the time the HRE (1150'ish) was up and running, we in Scandinavia were obedient little papal sock-puppets just like the rest of Europe. Just sayin' ;)

The Hanseatic "issue" was a good old fashioned trade dispute. Vikings were long gone but a lot of the trade network they established kept on ticking until the evil Germans started taxing stuff (aka. demanded tribute) :crazyeye:

Ok then let them continue to be an utterly unimportant peaceful society on the northern fringes of the map, it's not like they are doing anything else atm.

Ok then let them continue to be an utterly unimportant peaceful society on the northern fringes of the map, it's not like they are doing anything else atm.
I was just correcting your statement about them being pagans when they were very much Christians of the worst kind (ie. lots of manipulation, under-table-dealing and marrying daughter of for favour in Rome :))

I have always had issue with the UHV for the Norse.
Exploration part makes sense as does early rampaging
Settling Sicily? That is "recent" history, at that point they were Normans (read: Frenchi-fied/Christians).

Swedes have the "proper" idea with control of the Baltic in the "5 cities UHV", Vikings had the same dream so why not skip the Sicily bit (maybe even Normandy) and add 3 continental Baltic cities to that UHV?
The extra tension from borders and the landgrab they represent is bound to get some attention from Barbarossa

Except by the time the HRE (1150'ish) was up and running, we in Scandinavia were obedient little papal sock-puppets just like the rest of Europe. Just sayin' ;)

The Hanseatic "issue" was a good old fashioned trade dispute. Vikings were long gone but a lot of the trade network they established kept on ticking until the evil Germans started taxing stuff (aka. demanded tribute) :crazyeye:
The Hanseatic cities would have said everything was fine and dandy until the evil Danish began getting greedy on the Sound taxes :D

I was just correcting your statement about them being pagans when they were very much Christians of the worst kind (ie. lots of manipulation, under-table-dealing and marrying daughter of for favour in Rome :))

I have always had issue with the UHV for the Norse.
Exploration part makes sense as does early rampaging
Settling Sicily? That is "recent" history, at that point they were Normans (read: Frenchi-fied/Christians).

Swedes have the "proper" idea with control of the Baltic in the "5 cities UHV", Vikings had the same dream so why not skip the Sicily bit (maybe even Normandy) and add 3 continental Baltic cities to that UHV?
The extra tension from borders and the landgrab they represent is bound to get some attention from Barbarossa


I've always viewed the Norse civ as the Vikings/Normans, only that they simply don't expand to where they initially did. If we'd take things too exact many civs shouldn't be there
at least not under those names.
Germany is the best example,iirc the idea of thinking of that empire as one people didn't really come up untill the 18th-19th century under leadership of Prussia mainly.
Before that it was just allot of independent areas, Bavaria and Saxony still call themselves 'free states' within the republic. In some regions of swabia or saxony you hardly even recognize the language as german(nowadays)
netherland were also the 'seven united kingdoms or so' the 3 main regions are now 3 countries (belgium etc.) although they we're partially given away by foreign parties who controlled the area. but they weren't really that close in the first place(only in agreement that they didn't want to belong to one of the surrounding countries)
England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales all of which wouldn't what they are today if it hadn't been for William (back to the Normans)

2 postings hmm..
somewhat confusing I think.. (I can hardly make sense of all this right now^^)

Imo they stopped being Viking after they converted to christianity
pre 1000ad I don't think they had really accepted that odd new faith, I'm not sure when those missionary first showed up there, but before that they were a somewhat alien culture in the eyes of the few european nations that existed

But Norse(Normans/Normannen) had such a huge impact once they had converted that I don't think it can really be represented in this mod.
This is something that can't really be proven but I've read something about them having played a crucial role in making the Muslims hate christians absolutely as still is today
The massaker of the population of Jerusalem during the first crusade 60.000 dead, they killed every single man/woman/child.(very christianlike..) That's something allot of christians like to forget.
They had some of the most brutal and feared tactics in war, besides that great advantage of being pretty much the only ones who had heavy cavalry at the time(early period 1066 Hastings i.e.)
But on the other hand they behaved completely differently once they had conquered areas, being patrons of culture, art, science..

To get back to the point, it was about giving germany some more pressure early on.
And imo theres plenty of time for Viking/German conflicts between 850-1150AD
Not saying Viking invasions of Augsburg but the Hamburg/Lübeck/Rostock area should be somewhat disputed (pillaging of improvements etc.). Or maybe some rnd barb invasions to represent the pagan Vikings instead.. whatever it's just that before Norse do nothing but look pretty, why not make them much more aggressive and at least give other civs a hard time

Germany: we have to either fill Germany with a bunch of small independent cities and basically leave the areas devote of any interesting action or we make a constantly evolving player that will represent different things in different time periods. We are limited in what we can do.

England: same as Germany, although eventually they were more organized.

Crusades: the first Crusade for Jerusalem was in 1095AD. Christians and Muslims were at each other's throat form day one (640AD), the Crusades are a relative small part of the long history of bloodshed.

Vikings: Kiev Rus and Novgorod were both essentially Viking states, Norse's influence over Europe extended over the entire continent from Russia to England to Sicily ... how do you represent that in the relatively limited game engine that we have.

Nerfing Germany: we can give them bad stability so that their cities would more often declare independence.

Is it necessary to add artificial stability modifiers the Germany if we make the Norse more aggressive southward, or at least along the Baltic coast, essentially adding two tiles deep along coast to their warmap + bit a more aggression?
Don't know what Rhye did in his final patch, but the RFC Norse became a proper menace to all coastal areas, at least until defences/units catch up.

Skip the historically late Italian settlements and replace it with 2-3 Baltic city requirements instead (already in settler map by the looks of it). Germany loves the salty sea air so Frederick should be royally pissed when his vacation spots are taken :D
Since it mirrors the Swedish UHV and Norse generally collapse shortly after SWE appears, the competition over the coastal independents could cause some ruckus as well in late game (Hanseatic dispute).

*snip*
The massaker of the population of Jerusalem during the first crusade 60.000 dead, they killed every single man/woman/child.(very christianlike..) That's something allot of christians like to forget.
They had some of the most brutal and feared tactics in war, besides that great advantage of being pretty much the only ones who had heavy cavalry at the time(early period 1066 Hastings i.e.)
*snip*
[Citation needed]
In this thread so as to not clutter this thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=373520)

Yeah, only evil Humanists do this sort of thing :D

Seriously though, I'd rather contest the idea of ferocious Normans/Vikings that really only holds true (if at all) until the 9th century. William's army at Hastings was largely French in culture (this is 200 years later after all), as were the crusaders.

the whole thing kinda of drifted off in the wrong direction anyway :p

I think we do agree that some rivalry/competition in the Germany area might improve gameplay?

And basicly the Norse shouldn't be seen as a representation of the Normans?

Rather more aggression than more instability. Maybe give norse more offensive units in the Denmark spawn?

Rather more aggression than more instability. Maybe give norse more offensive units in the Denmark spawn?

the idea of making norse stronger ist what started the unwanted discussion i think :)

...I think we do agree that some rivalry/competition in the Germany area might improve gameplay?

And basicly the Norse shouldn't be seen as a representation of the Normans?
That's my take on it anyway, hate history books that equate Normans to the Old Norse, they are ancestors nothing more.
Would be like calling treating Americans as if they were Irish/English/Scandinavian/French/Whatever completely ignoring hundreds of years of local breeding and cultural/social development :D
Germany is just the odd one out on the continent with no natural enemy to speak of and the Barbarians are not numerous enough to prevent them from prospering enourmously .. barb level is perfect though, just enough watchfulness required.
Rather more aggression than more instability. Maybe give norse more offensive units in the Denmark spawn?
Goddess no. They have no immediate threats and already get the two Beserkers with more as soon as Iron/Copper is hooked.
There is a little too much moorland for my liking but other than that the area is pretty damn good for an early civ that isn't supposed to last into the 14-15th century (UHV wise), plus you get to pick and chose between early expansions with the Beserkers (York, Edinburg, Dublin, Bordeaux, Marseilles and the Italian cities).

The most annoying part of them is their useless city placement when starting a SWE game :D

Germany could be nerfed a bit, but I think just lowering their tech rate or something would be too easy. I think Austria needs to take a more commanding role over germany, like conquer all of bavaria and saxony.

... wrong thread :/