btw the latest change(provinces/tech) has had a positive effect on Portugal :)
AI excluded of course..
They still have the obvious terrain issue but, now they have a really good chance at getting a corporation(or even more than 1). That was usually totally out of the question.
In my latest game it's close to 1500 and only the military coprs and hanse have been founded, but stability currently is keeping me from expanding to africa.(shaky)
Haven't tested how unstable things can get before you start to lose cities

*sigh* this was supposed to replace the previous wrong posting :/

At negative stability, you can lose cities although the chance isn't significant until you hit -5 and below.

With 3 cities on the continent, all stable and with well developed land, you shouldn't have negative stability ... is it the civics?

At negative stability, you can lose cities although the chance isn't significant until you hit -5 and below.

With 3 cities on the continent, all stable and with well developed land, you shouldn't have negative stability ... is it the civics?

1476
4 cities on the continent shaky (-1) just dropped from 0
I razed Sevilla leading to a small instability early on (but worth it imo, built Faro 2S of starting loc. Lisboa moved 1N)
North Africa was settled by Cordoba, I have to conquer (more instability eventually)
The first settler will go to Puerto de la Cruz

cities 2|0
civics -9|4
economy 1|5
expansion -1|-3

civics:
feudal monarchy, bureaucracy, free peasentry, decentralization, org. rel., subjugation

manor houses/courthouses in all cities, only 1 castle so for (no stone)
Lagos flipped :/ that city sucks utterly without blacksmith/guild hall
and another thing, that thing with the 'hidden' modifier once you produce a certain amount of culture is gone.
intended?

imo theres a problem in the economy civics area, manorialism normally would be first choice but..
you only have 1 trade route, you'd lose it and I have got the impression that you'll stay atheist for a very long time with Portugal if you do that. (usually takes 'til around 1200+ anyway)
besides that I only have 6 farms on the continent, i.e. 1 trade route currently brings 6 commerce in Faro (ergo no benefit from manorialism but effectively around -18 commerce)
And if I'd have to switch civics for that(more instability)
free market will still take a while (paper in 2 turns)

an initial cath missionary would be nice ;)

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/3305/civ4screenshot0011v.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/407/civ4screenshot0011v.jpg/)

Every turn of Anarchy costs you stability, larger Empires can offset that with Courthouses and such, it is harder for smaller ones. I will reduce the penalty for smaller Empires.

Conquering cities in OK stability is better than settling. Switch to Imperialism as soon as you can (however, don't waste a turn of anarchy on only one civic change).

Civics in general need an overhaul. This will be the next big thing (although it will have to wait for Beta 9).

Every turn of Anarchy costs you stability, larger Empires can offset that with Courthouses and such, it is harder for smaller ones. I will reduce the penalty for smaller Empires.

Conquering cities in OK stability is better than settling. Switch to Imperialism as soon as you can (however, don't waste a turn of anarchy on only one civic change).

Civics in general need an overhaul. This will be the next big thing (although it will have to wait for Beta 9).

has imperialism been changed? +1 per city outside core area, would only start helping once I expand in that case
besides that I'm not sure who's core area north africa is, just Cordoba or for both? coloring(shading) of the area would help instead of the 'frame'. if there's overlap simply the 'mixed' color (byzantium/arabia or so are confusing too I think)

have the tech, but like you recommended I don't want to switch just because of that 1 civic (already did that with free peasantry and catholicism..) waiting for arabic knowledge for free market

I was thinking about the perspective of loosing troops and thus instability when I conquer NA, Indies can be a pita
Florence sent my German expedition troops scattering in the last game with the crusades etc. :)
the troops near Florence in the failed UHV save are the remnants of the first attempt


will the portuguese AI settler/warmaps bzw. the city name map be changed in beta 8-9? just out of curiosity about how many civs absinth is juggling :) or how far down on the list it is :)

also.. the UHV req. 2 cities in NA region x,y,z 2 cities in each region? or combined?

another thing I've been thinking about..
there are allot of cathedrals in Europe..
reducing the req. for a cathedral from 4 churches to 3?

I kinda force getting a 4th city with the dutch (free priest with protestant cathedral)

I'd be happy with just Amsterdam, Antwerpen and Groningen. Gets pretty tight after that.
had luck with my dutch autoplay too, unbelievably bad start :D

a picture says more than a thousand words :)

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/2837/civ4screenshot0012ky.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/16/civ4screenshot0012ky.jpg/)

ok could be worse, but wtf happened in Aachen :)

Note Englands points :) Norse founded Hanse, spread in England
England is master of Norse
Knights Hospitaller HQ in Calais

has imperialism been changed? +1 per city outside core area, would only start helping once I expand in that case
besides that I'm not sure who's core area north africa is, just Cordoba or for both? coloring(shading) of the area would help instead of the 'frame'. if there's overlap simply the 'mixed' color (byzantium/arabia or so are confusing too I think)

Imperialism +1 Stability per city in ... there are three categories, of the top of my hat, Solid, Stable and Unstable ... you get bonus for Stable and Unstable (if it is Solid, OK and Unstable, then the bonus is for OK and Unstable) It makes no difference if the city is in someone else's Solid/Stable part.

Wait till you get cities in NA or shortly before that.


have the tech, but like you recommended I don't want to switch just because of that 1 civic (already did that with free peasantry and catholicism..) waiting for arabic knowledge for free market


Free Market is great.


I was thinking about the perspective of loosing troops and thus instability when I conquer NA, Indies can be a pita
Florence sent my German expedition troops scattering in the last game with the crusades etc. :)
the troops near Florence in the failed UHV save are the remnants of the first attempt


Losing troops is not an issue, paying to maintain the troops, that is a problem.


will the portuguese AI settler/warmaps bzw. the city name map be changed in beta 8-9? just out of curiosity about how many civs absinth is juggling :) or how far down on the list it is :)


Some city name maps need to be changed, lets get the new map and then I will give instructions on how to adjust the city name maps.


also.. the UHV req. 2 cities in NA region x,y,z 2 cities in each region? or combined?

2 Cities in the provinces combined. I should probably change that to 2 cities on the Islands and 2 - 3 Cities in Africa, right now Islands are too crowded for three cities.

nice to know about troops cost vs loosing troops

whats with inflation?

made up over 50% of my expenses with Germany 200-300G/turn

nice to know about troops cost vs loosing troops

whats with inflation?

made up over 50% of my expenses with Germany 200-300G/turn

Inflation is a concept made up in Civ to balance growth vs expense and adjust that for different map size. Look at it like this: In the beginning, units/cities/civics have a low cost since your Empire is not fully developed yet. As the game progresses, those costs increase. Inflation in itself doesn't cost anything, it simply increases all other costs.

Cathedrals would give benefits tot he Dutch, but they will also disbalance others like Bulgaria and Poland.

Inflation is a concept made up in Civ to balance growth vs expense and adjust that for different map size. Look at it like this: In the beginning, units/cities/civics have a low cost since your Empire is not fully developed yet. As the game progresses, those costs increase. Inflation in itself doesn't cost anything, it simply increases all other costs.

Cathedrals would give benefits tot he Dutch, but they will also disbalance others like Bulgaria and Poland.

why disbalance? the amount of faith points? could be reduced
I'm not sure how others see it but there aren't many civ's that have >=8 cities
that means usually only 1 cathedral per civ if at all
8 cities still = 2 cathedrals
the benefit really only kicks in once you reach 9 cities and I dunno.. I don't really see how that could cause a civ to become OP (but I do know that small changes can have huge effects ;) )

Bulgaria currently very strong or eaten by Byzantine
Poland, well enough to harass Lithuania but that's about it. Seen Austria, Germany, Hungary, Norse all pretty much umm.. well Poland didn't stand a chance, but on occasion they survived :)

The massaker of the population of Jerusalem during the first crusade 60.000 dead, they killed every single man/woman/child.(very christianlike..) That's something allot of christians like to forget.


Replace the word "christian" with any other religion and you'll get a moderator warning.

More Cathedrals is not that much OP as it affects the difficulty of the UHV conditions.

Byzantium, Arabia, Ottomans, France, Germany, Spain, Poland, Kiev and Moscow should all get at least 8 cities on regular basis (some way more than that).

Replace the word "christian" with any other religion and you'll get a moderator warning.

Wrong thread:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=373520

for sarcasm or bad english? :)

More Cathedrals is not that much OP as it affects the difficulty of the UHV conditions.

Byzantium, Arabia, Ottomans, France, Germany, Spain, Poland, Kiev and Moscow should all get at least 8 cities on regular basis (some way more than that).

Beta 7 has changed allot of things :)

nice btw but I think I've already said that

Replace the word "christian" with any other religion and you'll get a moderator warning.
So true... unfortunately this same thing tends to be true all over the USA as a whole as well.
I guess the fact that Judeo-Christian principles have formed Western Culture, that values life more than any other part of the world, is meaningless... it's clearly a bad thing that deserves to be attacked.

Holy crap. The 1009AD exploration UHV for Vikings is awfully tight. Doable I am sure but it requires an entire damn fleet, 3 ships going constantly is barely enough and you need to move Beserkers around for the other UHV as well ..

And sack Paris, really? I know its historically relevant with the Normans and all that but surely having a city there is enough .. conquer <province> means my culture and no one else's right?

Plus the rather aggressive expansion that is needed for 2 UHV means you have to spam manor houses and then comes razings to further destabilize .. me'thinks a revision of Viking UHV's are in order, there is either not enough time (Manors, Beserkers, Boats, Settlers etc.) or you collapse.
I just collapsed in 978, manors in three home cities, York/Dublin captured and after settling Sicily - boom, not that it matters as one clearly needs more than three boats for exploration :D

And sack Paris, really? I know its historically relevant with the Normans and all that but surely having a city there is enough .. conquer <province> means my culture and no one else's right?

No, just cities. You can leave Paris alone (keep it for the third UHV).

We should probably change the Norse UHV ... reveal X percent of the map (not all ocean tiles).

Going back to stability...

I still think there needs to be more of a buffer on stability. I was Hungary and I had 4 cities in SOLID spots and one in OK (that one on the serbia coast area), with a couple manor houses and courthouses, I had -10 stability. Sure with more manors and courthouses I would be ok on stability, but Hungary is supposed to have the largest amount of land area and one of the big parts of that is early expansion which is totally discouraged by the strict stability. After Austria spawns and Bulgaria, Poland, Venezia start building up their forces it becomes really difficult to do the UHV

City location is only one factor in stability. How is your Economy and Civics? 4 Solid and 1 OK stability leads to +2 or +3 Stability points, not -10.

civics were fine, just straight up feudal stuff. economy not so much since i just started the game

civics were fine, just straight up feudal stuff. economy not so much since i just started the game

It should be high especially if you have just started. Working on improved tiles with resources should give you a nice boost in the beginning. Post a savegame, I want to take a look at it.

for sarcasm or bad english? :)

For discrimination. in the 21st century, ONLY christianity can be discriminated against.

I like the current civics by the way, was just about to get used to them, and now you guys are changing it, so... -.-

Byzantium is really strong in Beta 7, but i barely had time to celebrate when 3Miro gave a verbal confirmation they will be nerfed, so... -.-

So i take it that in this current stability format, -1 in stability gives you shaky, +1 gives you solid, and -10 means you're collapsing?

well crap I don't have a save, but I can try to repeat it :/

For discrimination. in the 21st century, ONLY christianity can be discriminated against.
Modern day, I think that has more to do with political correctness, due to everything but Christianity being minorities. Applies to all -isms really. Trash talking another is only done by the weak who have no valid arguments anyway so hardly a massive problem, just makes identifying the easier :lol:
Byzantium is really strong in Beta 7, but i barely had time to celebrate when 3Miro gave a verbal confirmation they will be nerfed, so...
Don't think of it as a nerf, but more of a being brought back in place. Last I heard and from what I can see, the unit production penalty is missing .. their stack of doom makes even the HRE stacks dwarf in comparison :D
Bulgaria is practically removed from game by the Byz power making Hungaria/Venice and Kiev extra strong forcing late spawners to struggle.
So i take it that in this current stability format, -1 in stability gives you shaky, +1 gives you solid, and -10 means you're collapsing?
Stability is a lot stricter, you risk collapse at -5 I think, which makes the slow'n'steady paramount .. it conflicts with a lot of the "get X by year" UHV due to straining stability to the maximum though.
Perhaps adding a +1 to another early building that is obsoleted quickly could sort that issue or maybe attach it to the manor house if a certain resource is available so it gives +2 for the troubled Civs (barley maybe?)

Looking forward to the tech-trade nerf the most, timing of the techs is nearly perfect but when everyone has all tech at all times it makes for a very boring experience.

Dont forget the thread for all that fantastic christianity/islam issues and cool opinions!

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=373520

Dont forget the thread for all that fantastic christianity/islam issues and cool opinions!

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=373520

HAHA now THAT's sarcasm! :lol:

No, just cities. You can leave Paris alone (keep it for the third UHV).

We should probably change the Norse UHV ... reveal X percent of the map (not all ocean tiles).

We could actually change the 3rd UHV to sacking Paris. That would make the Norse thousands of times less likely to collapse half way through their UHV. It's historical as well :)

Would it be totally wrong to add some kind of eastern asia sea access in the red sea? After all there was some muslim expansion in south east asia and africa.

Right now we only have "atlantic access" so it might not work?

Would it be totally wrong to add some kind of eastern asia sea access in the red sea? After all there was some muslim expansion in south east asia and africa.

Right now we only have "atlantic access" so it might not work?

Some colonies already give 'east asia access' which increases production speed on certain colonies (and is a tradeable resource)
This could be removed from the colonies and added as a resouce on the map (i.e. red sea)
Colonies still requireing atlantic access but just as a production bonus the stuff in the east, that way the 'possible' way through the red sea/arabia could be 'symbolized' (the atlantic access for the 'main trade route' the east access simply 'helped the initial expedition' kind of thing)

First off, I want to say great work on the newest version of this mod, it looks really great! :goodjob:

Here are a few comments:

1.The region of "Jerusalem" should be called instead "Palestine", it just sounds more authentic like that
2. Please consider adding in Palermo or Syracuse to Sicily
3. There are still city ruins in Morocco, co-ordinates (22,22)
4. Although I don't disagree with it, what was the point of adding Lithuania to the game?
5. England is unhistorically bear before 1066. You should include the Anglo-Saxon culture which existed there before 1066. Bringing me to #6....
6. The Normans are not represented at ALL in Northern France. Please look into Rollo the Viking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollo) or check out Lars Browthworth's podcast on the Normans (on iTunes). I would therefore recommend a heavily fortified Rouen to spawn in Northern France which would spawn in 911, the year Rollo took command of Normandy as part of an agreement with the French King. So you could spawn an independent Catholic Rouen in 911 and in 1066 have an independent Rennes in Bretagne also flip to the Kingdom of England.
7. Wales was independent for quite some time, I would therefore recommend having some independent city stationed there, therefore forcing the player to build a city at the tip of England and flipping York. Than have the English player expand in Britain and Ireland first, before expanding to France.
Lastly about England: They should NOT start at war with France !
:mischief: Let the Human declare war on France by themselves or force the AI to declare war on France at a certain point in time if they have not done so already
8. Have an English army spawn outside of an independent London, and have them try to attack it and capture it. Think of SoI with the PoA and KoJ and even Leoreth's mod with the Ottomans having to first capture Constantinople. It would work the same way, and in general makes the most sense, as 1066 was an invasion not the beginning of a new civilization.
9. The German 2nd UHV to have "3 vassals" sounds a tad weak, and I don't see the relevance. Could this perhaps be changed to something else? I was even thinking along the lines of accumulating Religious points, especially considering how pious the German Emperors were.
10. Why not separate Germany into the Holy Roman Empire and Prussia? You could have a spawning Prussia along with Austria and they would slowly disintegrate the Holy Roman Empire; to me this sounds the most historically accurate, just ask Leoreth, who is an adamant believer in this policy (and German too ;)).
11. The "Kingdom of Great Britain" did not exist in 1066
12. The centre of Anatolia is WAYY to fertile. It was and still is extremely semi-arid, with not much lushness to it. There are a lot of hills, it's a very "productive" area but not a fertile one, please fix that! And as I mentioned earlier, remove the deer (food) and add in salt (production)
13. A great event idea would be that of "William Wallace". Have a scripted barbarian invasion of a GG "William Wallace" and some Scottish troops (including pikemen) to spawn near Edinburgh, that would be one hell of an interesting even to see.

Here are a few questions:
1. What is the difference between the yellow and the normal UHV's?
2. Why do you get ivory from the philippines?
3. Whats the point of those random mountains in the middle of the Sahara?

Lastly:
Why not include Scotland and Ireland as unplayable civs? Or even in the case of Scotland, why no make them playable? I find it really strange that for a mod about Europe or little you seem to delve into it. Having even JUST a non-playable Scottish Empire would be really interesting, and I know that people have already created a Scottish Civilization which you can download on CFC.

Rejoice:
It would seem that Bakuel is working on European units for his next big release! :eek:

More comments coming soon...... :cool:

Salt is more commerce than production though :)
(I mean, yield-wise currently)

1.The region of "Jerusalem" should be called instead "Palestine", it just sounds more authentic like that


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA sorry guys, i just cant resist!!!!!!!!

First off, I want to say great work on the newest version of this mod, it looks really great! :goodjob:

Here are a few comments:

1.The region of "Jerusalem" should be called instead "Palestine", it just sounds more authentic like that
2. Please consider adding in Palermo or Syracuse to Sicily
3. There are still city ruins in Morocco, co-ordinates (22,22)
4. Although I don't disagree with it, what was the point of adding Lithuania to the game?
5. England is unhistorically bear before 1066. You should include the Anglo-Saxon culture which existed there before 1066. Bringing me to #6....
6. The Normans are not represented at ALL in Northern France. Please look into Rollo the Viking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollo) or check out Lars Browthworth's podcast on the Normans (on iTunes). I would therefore recommend a heavily fortified Rouen to spawn in Northern France which would spawn in 911, the year Rollo took command of Normandy as part of an agreement with the French King. So you could spawn an independent Catholic Rouen in 911 and in 1066 have an independent Rennes in Bretagne also flip to the Kingdom of England.
7. Wales was independent for quite some time, I would therefore recommend having some independent city stationed there, therefore forcing the player to build a city at the tip of England and flipping York. Than have the English player expand in Britain and Ireland first, before expanding to France.
Lastly about England: They should NOT start at war with France !
:mischief: Let the Human declare war on France by themselves or force the AI to declare war on France at a certain point in time if they have not done so already
8. Have an English army spawn outside of an independent London, and have them try to attack it and capture it. Think of SoI with the PoA and KoJ and even Leoreth's mod with the Ottomans having to first capture Constantinople. It would work the same way, and in general makes the most sense, as 1066 was an invasion not the beginning of a new civilization.
9. The German 2nd UHV to have "3 vassals" sounds a tad weak, and I don't see the relevance. Could this perhaps be changed to something else? I was even thinking along the lines of accumulating Religious points, especially considering how pious the German Emperors were.
10. Why not separate Germany into the Holy Roman Empire and Prussia? You could have a spawning Prussia along with Austria and they would slowly disintegrate the Holy Roman Empire; to me this sounds the most historically accurate, just ask Leoreth, who is an adamant believer in this policy (and German too ;)).
11. The "Kingdom of Great Britain" did not exist in 1066
12. The centre of Anatolia is WAYY to fertile. It was and still is extremely semi-arid, with not much lushness to it. There are a lot of hills, it's a very "productive" area but not a fertile one, please fix that! And as I mentioned earlier, remove the deer (food) and add in salt (production)
13. A great event idea would be that of "William Wallace". Have a scripted barbarian invasion of a GG "William Wallace" and some Scottish troops (including pikemen) to spawn near Edinburgh, that would be one hell of an interesting even to see.

Here are a few questions:
1. What is the difference between the yellow and the normal UHV's?
2. Why do you get ivory from the philippines?
3. Whats the point of those random mountains in the middle of the Sahara?

Lastly:
Why not include Scotland and Ireland as unplayable civs? Or even in the case of Scotland, why no make them playable? I find it really strange that for a mod about Europe or little you seem to delve into it. Having even JUST a non-playable Scottish Empire would be really interesting, and I know that people have already created a Scottish Civilization which you can download on CFC.

Rejoice:
It would seem that Bakuel is working on European units for his next big release! :eek:

More comments coming soon...... :cool:

1. Jerusalem is a city province and hence it should stay Jerusalem (otherwise "capture Palestine" is hardly a good goal for a crusade)
2. We are considering Palermo.
3. City ruins are spread through out the map to represent the fall of Rome (and other Roman cities) to barbarians.
4. Lithuania was the largest European country for a period of about 200 years (and one of the largest for even longer). Its goal is to fill the void region in the map and give Moscow something else to do (other than just spam cities).
5. Almost every civilization existed before its "spawn" time.
6. The best we can do with the Normans is the idea of Norse UHV (settle Normandy), which then flips to England.
7. We may change the English/French spawn war.
8. We "settle" capitals, the other way would require big change in the dynamics. There were hardly any capitals in Europe that we truly settled in our time frame.
9. We are thinking about changing the German UHV.
10. Prussia comes 120 years after the Dutch (less than 100 playable turns). This will do no good. The best is to change the name of Germany and "shrink" them around that time.
11. Dynamic civ names are in a process of review.
12. Nerfing Anatolia may be a better way to fix the powerful Byzantium issue. Will think about it.
13. There are already plenty of barb uprisings in Scotland.

1. No difference, eventually we are going to give all UHV conditions a "name", we haven't gotten to all of them yet.
2. I don't know. There was some Ivory there, I don't know what the main trade during colonial times was.
3. Those have to do with autoplay, mercenaries and city flips. Rhye uses some ice in Antarctica, but we don't really have that (and it also causes some issues).

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA sorry guys, i just cant resist!!!!!!!!
No kidding!
How ridiculous.
Please, rename a hugely famous/contested city for a territory that was never even a nation of its own and is today a hotbed of terrorist activity... especially considering the time period.

I hope it is called Palestine in the great "Sword of Islam" mod that I will never play.

Please don't troll other people.

I hope it is called Palestine in the great "Sword of Islam" mod that I will never play.

Of course it is! :lol:

Guess what, i actually downloaded it and played it! I hated it though, but instead of whining about it on and on in the SoI forum on how Byzantium shouldn't be bankrupt after 30 turns even with research at 0%, all i did was delete it and never show up in the SoI world ever again. If some people doesnt like the fact that RFC:Europe is not and never will be SoI, maybe they should do the same :)

anyways


1.The region of "Jerusalem" should be called instead "Palestine", it just sounds more authentic like that


The best part is the authentic. LMAO. AWESOME! HALL OF FAME STUFF

Stop trolling. We have created a thread for you. I think you know the adress.

Don't accuse anyone of trolling, that's seen as trolling itself.
And if you really see a troll, then report him.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA sorry guys, i just cant resist!!!!!!!!

sorry :mischief:

EDIT: come to think about it, its actually not my fault if someone posts something so hilarious it makes me point it out and laugh at it.
But you're still responsible for what you post here. And trollish comments aren ot allowed.

Back to topic.

This late progress with RFCE looks promising! At one point I was certain that it will die out, I am glad it didn't!:goodjob:

I will patch it and give you guys some feedback as soon as I can find some spare time.

...but instead of whining about it on and on in the SoI forum on how Byzantium shouldn't be bankrupt after 30 turns even with research at 0%[/B], all i did was delete it and never show up in the SoI world ever again.

You should give it another chance. If you know what are you are doing, it is possible to take over half of the map with Byzantine in SoI.;)

Wow, more yellow cards than the entire world cup final! It was probably needed though.
Message understood, sorry to those who are tired of the bickering. I will knock it off.

Public discussion of moderator actions is not allowed in this forum. If you have a problem with an action, then either PM the responsible mod or one of the assigned super moderators.

If you want to replace the Jerusalem name with something that covers a larger region, but aren't okay with Palestine (won't discuss this for obvious reasons), there's also the term Outremer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outremer). Technically it refers to the whole Levant, but it was most often used to refer to the crusader states so UHV goals like "Capture Outremer" makes sense in a historical context.

If you want to replace the Jerusalem name with something that covers a larger region, but aren't okay with Palestine (won't discuss this for obvious reasons), there's also the term Outremer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outremer). Technically it refers to the whole Levant, but it was most often used to refer to the crusader states so UHV goals like "Capture Outremer" makes sense in a historical context.

Jerusalem stays Jerusalem.

Almost everything in Civ IV revolves around cities, this is the main unit of "measure" for pretty much everything. We introduce the system of provinces to account for the fact that cities can be build and destroyed at random and we need intuitive, unambiguous and consistent way to refer to some or all cities in a particular region.

Most cities are "random", however, there is a number of cities that are fixed, those are either pre-build or spawning independents or capitals; hence we have several "city-provinces". A city-province is sufficiently clear and unambiguous. Jerusalem, Rome, Constantinople, London, Moscow ... The only semi-odd one is Ill-de-France, that was mostly there because that was the original wording for the UHV, we can safely merge that with either Orleans or Champagne (or expand it beyond just Paris).

As for Jerusalem, the target for the Crusades was Jerusalem. There were Crusades for Tunis or Egypt, but those are not included, we only consider the city of Jerusalem itself. Treaties between Crusaders and Muslims covered Jerusalem not the region around it.

You should give it another chance. If you know what are you are doing, it is possible to take over half of the map with Byzantine in SoI.;)

REALLY?!?!

With what, research at 0%? With ONE ARCHER per city and ONE MORE SUPER SPEARMAN in my capital??! With barbarians razing every single improvement i have instead of attacking my cities straight?? All this with crap production and zero commerce?
LMAO?!

No seriously, that mod makes me sick

Im not usually a whiner, so i cant understand why people whine. But now that you brought up the topic of SoI, i cant stop. Very well. I wont stop. I shall show everyone my amazing 30 minutes journey through SoI

9:30am So i download SoI. This mod has Byzantium! I thought. Should be fun :lol:
9:35 Er wow, you actually have to install it! Cool!!! Its like a brand new game in itself!!! Thumbs up!
9:45 Installation complete.
9:46 Select Civilisations. Er what, they changed Justinian's face?!? Now i get some funny Cyrus face leading Byzantium. Well... as long as he has good music. What... is... with the new UP??? +1 espionage in all cities?! WTH is that?? Espionage themed Byzantium? Oh well. Lets try this... Basel II guy.

9:48 Game start

Thumbs down 1: Select difficulty, Emir, Sultan, or Caliph? Er.. what? LMAO! WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? Errr if i have to choose what i wanna be, of cos i wanna be Caliph, becos a Caliph has more power than a Sultan, right? No but really, if these guys even have to change such simple NAMES that doesnt even have any impact of gameplay to suit their own tastes... i sense a biased mod already. Whatever, the one in the middle should be "Monarch", so i pressed Sultan and continue.

Thumbs down 2: I have ONE archer per city, and one archer and one spearman in my capital. Cool beans. Oh well, im okay with that if there are no barbs... OH THERE ARE BARBS! OMGWTH, this barb called "peasant" has the same combat strength as my sppearman?!?!? Oh well, no big deal barbs die when they attack my cities so... OH NO NO NO DONT RAZE!!! DO ANYTHING BUT RAZE MY IMPROVMENTS!1 Guess what, thats all the barbs did. Raze and march on. Raze and march on. And theres a lotta them. With one archer per city, you cant do nuts against that. Oh, and your gold will be -10 per turn even with research at 0%. Yes thats right :crazyeye:

Thumbs down 3: Open civilopedia. I wanna familiarize myself to this world. Okay lets see... some cool civics! Techonologies are foreign to me but... seems like a well thought of mod. Oh cool, a whole new concept... Titles!!! Ohh lets see... WTH.
The muslim title, "Leader of the Faithful", gives you +25% base piety, a lollipop, a mercedes benz, and many, many more bonuses!!! Seriously, a lot of bonuses. I cant remember what they are. And thats only a fraction of the Muslim titles!! There are still many more other muslim titles... all that requires islam as state religion :lol: Only fair i guess, this is a middle east mod... no but wait, The christian title, "Owner of the Holy Sepulchre", (notice how they avoid the words "faithful", or "leader". No, you just own it :lol:) gives you +20% base peity. THATS IT. No lollipop, no candy floss, nothing else. THATS IT! Its not even enough to match the +25%, hello?! And the title is not any easier to get!

Thumbs down 4: The naming of everything. Yes of cos, Palestine is used. The word Israel came out a grand total of -123854395 times in the game. Everything in the game was carefully named to ensure they suit the tastes of their... main group of players ;)

Thumbs down 5: Have i mentioned spread of Jews in your cities causes UNHAPPINESS? Yes, go figure that one yourself. Ohhh yes, and one more thing. As Byzantium, some Arabian Caliphate had a -7 relation to me for "You are an infidel" In my society, thats a taboo word. Besides, is it really that important that you must change "We are upset you have fallen under the sway of a heathen religion" to that?? At this point i lost respect for the mod

FINAL STRAW: As Byzantium, they changed my beloved Justinian's music to some... Orthodox chanting. Trust me, its nowhere as awesome at all. The other orthodox civ, Armenia i think, had awful music too. Just when i thought everyone's music in the game is boring... yet another arabian nation spawned. And guess what... They had some awesome, heroic Prince of Persia styled music i am serious. It sounded disney-like. I am a musician. I. Cannot. Tolerate. People. Who. Manipulate. Using. Music.

So there you have it, FakeShady's official review of SoI

EDIT: So conclusion, no Jusos i will not be giving SoI another chance unless they fix these problems, something i believe i will never see ;)

Don't spam. This post has nothing to do with this thread. Next time, post in the right thread.

gotta say I agree, SOI was pretty odd, didn't really enjoy it, especially since 50% of the civs are actually just crap, no argument

Ok.... back on topic!

Jerusalem stays Jerusalem.

Fair enough, if its for the reason of the UHV I guess it makes sense.
Also I was wondering why the Ottomans start off with sooo many settlers? I mean, I built Bursa (with one settler) but I soon had several others. I would recommend cutting back on them. I also flipped quite a few settlers as well, so that might have been part of the problem as well.

Also I still feel the Bulgarians are WAYYY too strong. The Bulgarian First Empire never stretched from Venice to the entire Western coast of the Black Sea; nor do should they be one of the strongest factions in the game. I would recommend restricting them Bulgaria, but not all the way to the coast, or else they interfere with the Venetian spread (they tend not to expand too far :( ). Perhaps increasing the stability pressure on them would be a good idea, as they should collapse more often, and allow the Byzantines to capture one or two of their cities at least once in a while. Anyway I'm sure your in the process of making them weaker, for the next version.

I'll come out with more ideas later! :)

Fair enough, if its for the reason of the UHV I guess it makes sense.


Of course it makes sense. That city is called Jerusalem, so of course we call it Jerusalem.


Also I was wondering why the Ottomans start off with sooo many settlers?

Too many settlers? Thats all you think needs to be cut back? Settlers?

@FakeShady:
I don't want to discuss this review with you. So just two remarks:
1. Please stop suggesting all the time that the creator or the players of SoI are Muslim or have a Muslim or anti-Christian bias or whatnot. That's simply ridiculous.
2. If you don't like SoI and it's so bad you even can write this review, why don't you have the balls to post it in, I don't know, an actual SoI thread so edead can read your opinion and react to it, instead of posting it here where it has really absolutely no relevance to RFC Europe playtesting?

I may have already gone too far in this reaction, but I don't want to see this discussion continuing here, so if you have anything to say to me, do so per PM.

Ok.... back on topic!



Fair enough, if its for the reason of the UHV I guess it makes sense.
Also I was wondering why the Ottomans start off with sooo many settlers? I mean, I built Bursa (with one settler) but I soon had several others. I would recommend cutting back on them. I also flipped quite a few settlers as well, so that might have been part of the problem as well.

Also I still feel the Bulgarians are WAYYY too strong. The Bulgarian First Empire never stretched from Venice to the entire Western coast of the Black Sea; nor do should they be one of the strongest factions in the game. I would recommend restricting them Bulgaria, but not all the way to the coast, or else they interfere with the Venetian spread (they tend not to expand too far :( ). Perhaps increasing the stability pressure on them would be a good idea, as they should collapse more often, and allow the Byzantines to capture one or two of their cities at least once in a while. Anyway I'm sure your in the process of making them weaker, for the next version.

I'll come out with more ideas later! :)

I think the main problem with Venetia is a too strong Ragusa. Venetia would out-expand the bulgarians if the city was easier to capture.

The new bulgarian spawn is not too strong. Four Konniks with strength 7 (and -20% city attack) makes it easy to repel them.

@FakeShady:
I don't want to discuss this review with you. So just two remarks:
1. Please stop suggesting all the time that the creator or the players of SoI are Muslim or have a Muslim or anti-Christian bias or whatnot. That's simply ridiculous.
2. If you don't like SoI and it's so bad you even can write this review, why don't you have the balls to post it in, I don't know, an actual SoI thread so edead can read your opinion and react to it, instead of posting it here where it has really absolutely no relevance to RFC Europe playtesting?

I may have already gone too far in this reaction, but I don't want to see this discussion continuing here, so if you have anything to say to me, do so per PM.

I feel like i need to defend myself in public. I dont like SoI, but thats my problem, so i didnt whine at an SoI thread. All i did was delete it. I was simply telling Jusos why i WONT be giving SoI another chance.

@FakeShady:
1. Please stop suggesting all the time that the creator or the players of SoI are Muslim or have a Muslim or anti-Christian bias or whatnot. That's simply ridiculous.
2. If you don't like SoI and it's so bad you even can write this review, why don't you have the balls to post it in, I don't know, an actual SoI thread so edead can read your opinion and react to it, instead of posting it here where it has really absolutely no relevance to RFC Europe playtesting?

1) Please stop "suggesting" the truth? That is the truth after all, I don't think the Turk would deny it. Though he and I disagree on a lot, he certainly seems to be honest.

2) I don't think it takes balls to post the review anywhere... it came up in this thread, so though it was certainly out of place here, it isn't like he did it here because he was scared he would get his head cut off (the deserved fate of infidels).

REALLY?!?!

With what, research at 0%? With ONE ARCHER per city and ONE MORE SUPER SPEARMAN in my capital??! With barbarians razing every single improvement i have instead of attacking my cities straight?? All this with crap production and zero commerce?
LMAO?!

No seriously, that mod makes me sick

Im not usually a whiner, so i cant understand why people whine. But now that you brought up the topic of SoI, i cant stop. Very well. I wont stop. I shall show everyone my amazing 30 minutes journey through SoI

9:30am So i download SoI. This mod has Byzantium! I thought. Should be fun
9:35 Er wow, you actually have to install it! Cool!!! Its like a brand new game in itself!!! Thumbs up!
9:45 Installation complete.
9:46 Select Civilisations. Er what, they changed Justinian's face?!? Now i get some funny Cyrus face leading Byzantium. Well... as long as he has good music. What... is... with the new UP??? +1 espionage in all cities?! WTH is that?? Espionage themed Byzantium? Oh well. Lets try this... Basel II guy.

9:48 Game start

Thumbs down 1: Select difficulty, Emir, Sultan, or Caliph? Er.. what? LMAO! WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? Errr if i have to choose what i wanna be, of cos i wanna be Caliph, becos a Caliph has more power than a Sultan, right? No but really, if these guys even have to change such simple NAMES that doesnt even have any impact of gameplay to suit their own tastes... i sense a biased mod already. Whatever, the one in the middle should be "Monarch", so i pressed Sultan and continue.

Thumbs down 2: I have ONE archer per city, and one archer and one spearman in my capital. Cool beans. Oh well, im okay with that if there are no barbs... OH THERE ARE BARBS! OMGWTH, this barb called "peasant" has the same combat strength as my sppearman?!?!? Oh well, no big deal barbs die when they attack my cities so... OH NO NO NO DONT RAZE!!! DO ANYTHING BUT RAZE MY IMPROVMENTS!1 Guess what, thats all the barbs did. Raze and march on. Raze and march on. And theres a lotta them. With one archer per city, you cant do nuts against that. Oh, and your gold will be -10 per turn even with research at 0%. Yes thats right

Thumbs down 3: Open civilopedia. I wanna familiarize myself to this world. Okay lets see... some cool civics! Techonologies are foreign to me but... seems like a well thought of mod. Oh cool, a whole new concept... Titles!!! Ohh lets see... WTH.
The muslim title, "Leader of the Faithful", gives you +25% base piety, a lollipop, a mercedes benz, and many, many more bonuses!!! Seriously, a lot of bonuses. I cant remember what they are. And thats only a fraction of the Muslim titles!! There are still many more other muslim titles... all that requires islam as state religion Only fair i guess, this is a middle east mod... no but wait, The christian title, "Owner of the Holy Sepulchre", (notice how they avoid the words "faithful", or "leader". No, you just own it ) gives you +20% base peity. THATS IT. No lollipop, no candy floss, nothing else. THATS IT! Its not even enough to match the +25%, hello?! And the title is not any easier to get!

Thumbs down 4: The naming of everything. Yes of cos, Palestine is used. The word Israel came out a grand total of -123854395 times in the game. Everything in the game was carefully named to ensure they suit the tastes of their... main group of players

Thumbs down 5: Have i mentioned spread of Jews in your cities causes UNHAPPINESS? Yes, go figure that one yourself. Ohhh yes, and one more thing. As Byzantium, some Arabian Caliphate had a -7 relation to me for "You are an infidel" In my society, thats a taboo word. Besides, is it really that important that you must change "We are upset you have fallen under the sway of a heathen religion" to that?? At this point i lost respect for the mod

FINAL STRAW: As Byzantium, they changed my beloved Justinian's music to some... Orthodox chanting. Trust me, its nowhere as awesome at all. The other orthodox civ, Armenia i think, had awful music too. Just when i thought everyone's music in the game is boring... yet another arabian nation spawned. And guess what... They had some awesome, heroic Prince of Persia styled music i am serious. It sounded disney-like. I am a musician. I. Cannot. Tolerate. People. Who. Manipulate. Using. Music.

So there you have it, FakeShady's official review of SoI

EDIT: So conclusion, no Jusos i will not be giving SoI another chance unless they fix these problems, something i believe i will never see

SOI is biased towards the Islamic world in the same way the RFCE is biased towards Europe.. I mean come on, it's called Sword of Islam, you should know what to expect. I didn't really like it either, but I think you should remember that regardless of this, it's the product of somebody's hard work and you should respect that.

SOI is biased towards the Islamic world in the same way the RFCE is biased towards Europe.. I mean come on, it's called Sword of Islam, you should know what to expect.
While you make a great point... according to Leoreth, this is not the case, and it is "ridiculous" to suggest there is a bias...

While you make a great point... according to Leoreth, this is not the case, and it is "ridiculous" to suggest there is a bias...

I don't think edead is Muslim at all, in fact I would guess that he is a Catholic (although I don't know for sure).

As for bias, there is a difference between bias as in focused attention and bias as ignoring/twisting history. Obviously RFCE and SoI are both focused-biased towards specific regions/religions, however, I don't think either one is twisted-biased beyond what you get from the limitations of the game engine.

I'm kind of confused how Edead is biased towards Islamic factions in a mod that is centered around the Middle East? I think he's very fair to all factions. Its not as if the Christian or Hindu factions are underpowered compared to the Muslim Factions. And if your talking about the fact that they all get eventually crushed in the Late Game, thats because historically they did. SoI creates a historically accurate Middle East, but at the same time keeps it open for gameplay, therefore allowing a huge Georgian Empire or an unhistorically large Chauchun Empire.
And yes, please don't be so disrespectful to people who have spent a very long time creating a mod. If you don't like it, don't play it. And if you really didn't like it, then I pray that you can openly admit your feelings.

@3Miro
Didn't read your post; but I could not agree with you more :)

While you make a great point... according to Leoreth, this is not the case, and it is "ridiculous" to suggest there is a bias...

Agree:lol:

As for bias, there is a difference between bias as in focused attention and bias as ignoring/twisting history. Obviously RFCE and SoI are both focused-biased towards specific regions/religions, however, I don't think either one is twisted-biased beyond what you get from the limitations of the game engine.

Agree!

SOI is biased towards the Islamic world in the same way the RFCE is biased towards Europe.. I mean come on, it's called Sword of Islam, you should know what to expect. I didn't really like it either, but I think you should remember that regardless of this, it's the product of somebody's hard work and you should respect that.

Agree too! But i didnt disrespect it. I simply said why i didnt like it.

And if you really didn't like it, then I pray that you can openly admit your feelings.


And isn't that what i did?

I would like to take this opportunity to clarify something. I never once said the mod is bad. To edead, if you can hear this, your mod is good, and to an extent quite historical too :) I just really, really didnt like it. Yes, the mod makes me sick and it still does. But thats my problem. Im not complaining. Whats wrong with that?

Now now, lets get back to topic. Some people cant wait to warn me ;)

I don't think edead is Muslim at all, in fact I would guess that he is a Catholic (although I don't know for sure).
I didn't say everyone involved was a Muslim, but the Turk is... and he was the driving power behind it. I have no problem with his bias in his mod, but to deny that it exists, as Leoreth did, is completely illogical.

Fakeshady, although I agree with you in that we should get back on task, I would like to remind you to look back at the comments you are about to post, and think if thats:
a. Possibly hurtful to someone
b. Really neccessary for the continuation of X thread your on
So the moderators won't have to kick you out. Just a friendly suggestion before something dramatic happens ;)

Anyway........
What are the plans for the next version of RFC Europe?


EDIT:
I didn't say everyone involved was a Muslim, but the Turk is...
And your a Protestant Christian, does that make you illegible to talk about Catholic and Muslim civs? Although I would like to say yes, the answer is no.

Anyway........
What are the plans for the next version of RFC Europe?

Most changes are the usual stuff. You can see the things we want to do in the changelog. The most important things for the next version we have now (it will be more when released) are:

- New civic system
- Some changes on the map
- Some bugfixes
- Many other little things

You can allways keep track of the progress here.
https://sourceforge.net/projects/rfceurope/develop

could you change the Viking UHV about reviling all the ocean tiles by a certain date as it's more of an exercise in patients than skill. maybe one about getting a certain amount of ships by a date would be a good replacement.

- Many other little things


Does many other little things include rework on the UHVs?

...the Turk is... and he was the driving power behind it. I have no problem with his bias in his mod...

No. Embryodead was the driving force behind it and he did it pretty much by himself and it is definetly Edead's mod!

Rather than split hairs... does it matter? Are you saying there is no bias also? Haha, you guys are HILARIOUS!

The point is, the SoI is understandably biased... It isn't like it is the whole world you are playing in, and Islam is disproportionately powerful...
It is focused on that region, and just as Islam is generally whooped up in the RFC:E because it is fringe, non-Islamic regions are fringe in SoI and understandably get whooped up in that area, reflected history in both cases.

Does many other little things include rework on the UHVs?

No. What I mean with little things are like typos, deleting unneccessary lines of code. I the reworked UHV was done already, I would have mentioned it.

BTW, it is a list of what already is done for the next version. There will be many more changes until the next version. (And maybe the rework of the UHV will be one of them)

The only thing done so far for Beta 9 is merijn_v1's Civic code. The little time that I have during the week, so far I spend on chasing strange bugs. I will work more on it this weekend.

You guys should look up the definition of bias.

Representing things correctly as they were = NOT bias.

Every post after this warning, which doesn#t have anything to do with this mod here, will get deleted.

Played as Norse, and two things have to be changed.
1. The stupid loss of stability for razing citys... thanks for correcting this 3miro but please use it in the next beta too.
2. Providence stabilities HAVE to be able to change. This is killing any chance of expansion and preventing me from winning the game.

I've always noticed a somewhat odd city placement(or lack of cities) by Germany around the Dutch spawn area(it's outside Germany's settler map)(1 tile overlap i think)

Why exclude it anymore or at all?
Let germany build within the dutch area if they want to, more competition with Burgundy, France, England in that case.

If germany had built near the dutch spawn point that city would be erased, so no problem for the dutch there. Elsewise they get flips.
The flipping of cities from Germany to the Netherlands would be after the win date for the German UHV anyway(no problem for the player, I build Amsterdam when I play Germany).
This would also weaken Germany (AI wise) (cities flipping, might even collapse)

Another thing.. I know people don't like instability :p
but.. during the most of the timeframe of this mod the area we know as Germany today was quite fragmented.The best comparision I can think of is the Japaneese middle ages (shogun vs tenno), less warlike though.
the first German UHV ist to control the east bank of the rhine in 1300 (which isn't really a challenge imo, at least not right now)
why not have it be a battle about being able to keep your cities together, instability would nicely represent the fragmentation imo
maybe something like the byzanitines have in small, that they cant lose a few core areas(say swabia and franconia) as long as they have their capitol, but it more likely for cities to declare independance (not as a UP though, maybe increase the stability output of the rathaus to 2)
iirc currently it only gets really dangerous around -5 stabilty, set that number for germany to -2 (just i.e.)

and maybe more provinces? saxony could be cut into 5 provinces or so imo (lower saxony i.e.) (I could help out with some maps or so)


and btw. @ 3miro

I think I recall having read you mentioning that Germany should conquer Groningen more often.

Well it's not within their warmap :)

Having German flippers in Dutch territory may not impact a German player much since UHV has come and gone, but a for a Dutch player ..
Have you seen the hardware/tech in Frederick's hands in the late 16th century? Imagine a flip declaration from that monster .. he is a dog-pile all on his own :D
And I have never seen him be anything but solid after 1400 or so when he has all the land he goes for and spends his time building up the cities.

He does have a lot of stability issues early on with barbarians and expansion, I have seen him collapse several times and still come back to be among the top 2-3 ..

We should add more of the Netherlands to the German map.

I had similar idea for Germany, lower their initial stability, so that one would have to be even more careful in expanding (or expand, then lose some cities, then expand again), until they can get their stability high enough. This would delay the growth of Germany and add another challenge.

For the UHV: Historic ones
- Have the most Catholic Faith Points in XXXXAD (Holy Roman Empire)
- Be the first to discover the Printing Press.

Suggestions for the ahistoric one?
- reach X Stability in XXXXAD
or
- win a Crusade (change the French UHV to what? something about the Western Schism perhaps)
or
- conquer Austria and/or Poland

Hi there; I've been following RFC Europe for a while without posting, but the recent developments are too exciting for me to stay silent any longer...

Those ideas about Germany are good. I'd probably give the Crusade to them, and certainly not the conquest. In general, I think there are way to many UHVs involving controlling a bunch of provinces from a list. Almost every civ has that in a way or another except the Netherlands... More uniqueness would be welcome here (although I know it may be hard to find many good new ideas).

Another not very original UHV is to found XYZ colonies, especially for France, which was certainly not the most impressive colonial power. Since it is the only civ to last for the entire timeframe of the mod, and since for most of it it was among the strongest countries in Europe, I suggest a new UHV to replace colonies that would span the whole game: Have X Golden Ages, where X would be about 5 I guess (1 from 2/3 UHV, probably 1 from a Crusade, 1 from Versailles, 2-3 from great people). I think no date is necessary.

With this idea, there is an incentive to win a Crusade, so that UHV could be changed, and given to Germany. What do you think?

Hi there; I've been following RFC Europe for a while without posting, but the recent developments are too exciting for me to stay silent any longer...

Those ideas about Germany are good. I'd probably give the Crusade to them, and certainly not the conquest. In general, I think there are way to many UHVs involving controlling a bunch of provinces from a list. Almost every civ has that in a way or another except the Netherlands... More uniqueness would be welcome here (although I know it may be hard to find many good new ideas).

Another not very original UHV is to found XYZ colonies, especially for France, which was certainly not the most impressive colonial power. Since it is the only civ to last for the entire timeframe of the mod, and since for most of it it was among the strongest countries in Europe, I suggest a new UHV to replace colonies that would span the whole game: Have X Golden Ages, where X would be about 5 I guess (1 from 2/3 UHV, probably 1 from a Crusade, 1 from Versailles, 2-3 from great people). I think no date is necessary.

With this idea, there is an incentive to win a Crusade, so that UHV could be changed, and given to Germany. What do you think?

That is an interesting idea. However, you are replacing two of the French UHV conditions (Crusade and Colonies). I think the Colonies were originally the "ahistoric" UHV, now we can use one historic or otherwise.

- Charlemagne's Empire
- France through the ages (Golden Ages)
- ??????

As for control of Provinces, yes many civs are required to get them from a list, however, you should note that in all cases, there is a twist. The uniqueness doesn't come from what you are supposed to do, but from the idea of how you do it

- France: very fast conquest from MANY independent cities
- Byzantium: no conquest, just defense, defense and more defense (from Arabs, Bulgarians, Seljuk, Crusaders)
- Arabia: conquest is easy, but you have to defend from the Crusades
- Bulgaria: you have a very strong opponent in the most heavily fortified city
- Norse has to make a naval Empire with cities at random places around the map
- Burgundy has to go for a conquest, driving a wedge between two superpowers
- Venice has a financial Crusade mechanics involved
- Kiev: conquest is just easy settlement, defending a large territory from the Mongols is hard
- Spain/Cordoba have defensive Crusades involved
- Lithuania has to deal with conquest after the Mongols and nearby Poland
- Ottomans have a ridiculous amount of land to conquer from relatively strong opponents

Civilization is a very militaristic game anyway, conquest comes naturally as an UHV.

Having German flippers in Dutch territory may not impact a German player much since UHV has come and gone, but a for a Dutch player ..
Have you seen the hardware/tech in Frederick's hands in the late 16th century? Imagine a flip declaration from that monster .. he is a dog-pile all on his own :D
And I have never seen him be anything but solid after 1400 or so when he has all the land he goes for and spends his time building up the cities.

He does have a lot of stability issues early on with barbarians and expansion, I have seen him collapse several times and still come back to be among the top 2-3 ..

Maybe German are usually supposed to be solid and strong, but in our history they collapsed early and was still scattered in 16th century, so Dutch got time and space to grow.

Can you make it so that if the Germans collapse later in the game, they will respawn in Berlin? Or even better, could you have them build Berlin in the late game, and move their capital there. I think that would be a very cool thing to see.

Having German flippers in Dutch territory may not impact a German player much since UHV has come and gone, but a for a Dutch player ..
Have you seen the hardware/tech in Frederick's hands in the late 16th century? Imagine a flip declaration from that monster .. he is a dog-pile all on his own :D
And I have never seen him be anything but solid after 1400 or so when he has all the land he goes for and spends his time building up the cities.

He does have a lot of stability issues early on with barbarians and expansion, I have seen him collapse several times and still come back to be among the top 2-3 ..

Either Germany or France will be dominating Central Europe in the game. Its not historically wrong, its just that when one of them gets the better of the other, the victor becomes unstoppable

That is an interesting idea. However, you are replacing two of the French UHV conditions (Crusade and Colonies). I think the Colonies were originally the "ahistoric" UHV, now we can use one historic or otherwise.

- Charlemagne's Empire
- France through the ages (Golden Ages)
- ??????

Yes, I know I was suggesting a big change for France's UHV. The original idea was to change the colonies one, but then I realized there was some overlap between Crusade and Golden Ages, and since you suggested it for Germany I figured something better could be found. But I think it does fit more for France, until we think of something else.

As for control of Provinces, yes many civs are required to get them from a list, however, you should note that in all cases, there is a twist. The uniqueness doesn't come from what you are supposed to do, but from the idea of how you do it

I think most of them are fine, but sometimes building cities in very specific spots isn't fun at all. In the original RFC, not many civilisations have such specific "control such areas" criteria, and yet the player will most likely get those areas because of stability and historiciy; and because it's good to expand even without the incentive from UHVs! For example, to win with Japan, it is a good move to capture China, even if it is not asked.

The idea of a UHV is to bring the player to do something they wouldn't be likely to do otherwise. So, the Frankish conquests, being quick and historical, are good. But UHVs like Venice's control the Adriatic sea provinces are a bit boring. Venice should be about dominating the trade of the Mediterranean, not founding random cities in a bunch of provinces; but you won't make a very good trading empire if you stay confined to the city of Venice.

I just think some civs could use more flavour. Like insanely gold-oriented Mali. Or culture-oriented Egypt. Just for the sake of variety.

But then again, you're doing very good work!

just played a game as the Venetians. Few interesting things to note:

1) Right on the turn i captured Jerusalem through crusade, the pope chose France to lead a new crusade. Since Jerusalem is now under my control, France declared war on me. Lol

2) The crusaders from France never showed up though. However i still had to wait for France to cool down before i can make peace with them.

3) i never get the golden age promised to me for capturing Jerusalem. In fact Jerusalem gave me nothing but stability problems. The only golden age i had is from completing the first 2 UHVs

4) Imperialism looks horribly weak. I settled on an "unstable" province, and right away my stability took a -5 hit. How is Imperialism supposed to work like this?

EDIT: 5) I beelined Banking and Optics right away from the very first turn, and somehow i still lost the St Marco Basilica to Germany. IMO Germany and France are too strong, especially France with their UP

...I just think some civs could use more flavour. Like insanely gold-oriented Mali. Or culture-oriented Egypt. Just for the sake of variety.

But then again, you're doing very good work!

I totally agree! The UHVs need to be more challenging and complex. Figuring them out is the hard part, but gladly it is possible to just implement some ideas straight from RFC.

just played a game as the Venetians. Few interesting things to note:

1) Right on the turn i captured Jerusalem through crusade, the pope chose France to lead a new crusade. Since Jerusalem is now under my control, France declared war on me. Lol

2) The crusaders from France never showed up though. However i still had to wait for France to cool down before i can make peace with them.

3) i never get the golden age promised to me for capturing Jerusalem. In fact Jerusalem gave me nothing but stability problems. The only golden age i had is from completing the first 2 UHVs

4) Imperialism looks horribly weak. I settled on an "unstable" province, and right away my stability took a -5 hit. How is Imperialism supposed to work like this?

EDIT: 5) I beelined Banking and Optics right away from the very first turn, and somehow i still lost the St Marco Basilica to Germany. IMO Germany and France are too strong, especially France with their UP

I need a safegame from the turn right before you capture Jerusalem.

I need a safegame from the turn right before you capture Jerusalem.

Sorry, dont have one :cry: i completely forgotten about it. i can try recreating the problem. Or you can try it yourself, control crusade with money, lead a crusade to Jerusalem, and then wait till the pope calls for a new crusade, THEN you capture Jerusalem

A few more comments:

1. The Norse need to stop converting to Orthodox Christianity, and in general the random spread of Orthodoxy really needs to be capped and stopped from spreading to the west. I believe you can do this through your province system,
2. The Mercenaries screen needs to be cleaned up. Again, now that you have a province system, you can use it to have local recruitment, so you can't for example hire Cuman Horse Archers if your playing as Spain or England. Otherwise currently you have Minoan archers for sale and other oddities which shouldn't exist.
3. Liked the Viking Vinland idea that was great!
4. Why do the Vikings need to build a city in the Crimea? Shouldn't Russia (North of Kiev) just be fine?
5. It should be La Reconquista or even better the "Spanish Inquisition" for the Spanish UHV. By the way does that mean you need to get rid of all the other religions, like Islam and Judaism? Or just conquer them all under your Catholic state religion?

2. The Mercenaries screen needs to be cleaned up. Again, now that you have a province system, you can use it to have local recruitment, so you can't for example hire Cuman Horse Archers if your playing as Spain or England. Otherwise currently you have Minoan archers for sale and other oddities which shouldn't exist.


That's a very cool idea!:) I hope this can be implemented soon.

A few more comments:

2. The Mercenaries screen needs to be cleaned up. Again, now that you have a province system, you can use it to have local recruitment, so you can't for example hire Cuman Horse Archers if your playing as Spain or England. Otherwise currently you have Minoan archers for sale and other oddities which shouldn't exist.


Well the thing about mercenaries, is that they fight for the higghest bidder, not the ones nearest to their home, isnt it?

I like the idea of Germany and Austria having less stability penalties for expanding into each other's territory (or having each other's territory in their war map, whichever works.) Reason being they're both technically in the same empire back at that time

I agree with fakeshady, mercs did pop up in strange places didnt they?

I my current Arab game I conquered Constantinopel in 672 AD thanks to those 10 horse archers you get at start which I sent away at once. Now I was somewhat lucky with plague but that retreat option and bulk of units would make it repeatable.

Edit: Byzantines collapsed in 684 AD.
Edit 2: Bulgarians followed a few years later.

Well the thing about mercenaries, is that they fight for the higghest bidder, not the ones nearest to their home, isnt it?

I'm sorry, but isn't it common sense that there were no Cuman Horse Archers offering their services to the King of France or England? If you have mercenaries by region, you can have regional mercenary recruitments, like a Breton Horseman for whomever controls Normandy, or owns a province next to it.
Basically you will no longer have "Minoan" spearmen, which don't make any sense anyway, popping up as mercenaries for the Norse. "RR" as its called Regional Recruitment, and thats what you can include in your mod, now that you have provinces.

It makes sense what The Turk says. We all know that the mercs fight for the highest bidder, but I don't think mercs from Egypt or so will fight for England, even if the pay double the price of, let's say, Arabia.

That reminds me of something. It will be nice if the Germans get another UU, so that the Landsknecht realy can be a merc. (as the were IRL)

At least the preposition of the mercenary could change, like Crimean x or Lusitanian y. If there is a city in region x, then there is a possibility of unit y. So, for example, if Prague exists, there is a possiblity of a Bohemian unit. And if a city in for example Normandy trains a unit and then rent it, it could be a Norman unit. The first option should be quite easy to code although I don't know python, the second may be a little harder but a nice touch as well. These ideas give the mod lots of flavour so I hope they can be modded in.

At least the preposition of the mercenary could change, like Crimean x or Lusitanian y. If there is a city in region x, then there is a possibility of unit y. So, for example, if Prague exists, there is a possiblity of a Bohemian unit. And if a city in for example Normandy trains a unit and then rent it, it could be a Norman unit. The first option should be quite easy to code although I don't know python, the second may be a little harder but a nice touch as well. These ideas give the mod lots of flavour so I hope they can be modded in.

All I know is that Edead was able to do it for SoI, with his provinces idea. Also comment on my other comments and tell me what you like and don't like

whatever, its just extra work and no impact on gameplay.

Just had a game as the Austrians. I had the "would you let these cities flip?" bug too, and when i pressed yes the cities flipped to me. These cities had 70% foreign culture though. Germany had 20 units in Leipzig, and only 3 in the city that flipped to me, Salzburg. How does the Germany AI know Salzburg is gonna flip to me?? Weird. Not right. And why is Tuscony in Austria's core area? When the only things there are... a mountain. lol. Germany is definitely too strong, and Austria starts off with way too little techs. Other observations are that the Seljuks always fail to spread Islam into Anatolia. And that Byzantium is back to crappishly crap now. The pope seems to be failing in his job to spam missionaries, and Orthodoxy pops out in weird places. Overall tech rate is still too fast.

So my suggestions are:
1) Put Germany and Austria into each other's "OK" zones
2) Fix the Austrian spawn bug, duh
3) Throw in Monument Building and Patronage to Austria's starting techs.
4) Slow down the tech rate. Its about time someone move Protestantism back to Printing Press, timed to be founded around 1500?
5) Make the Pope more efficient in spreading Catholicism and building temples/monasteries, giving gold etc
6) Control spread of Orthodoxy, at least by a bit. Its understandable for Orthodoxy to spread, but its ridiculous when as Austria almost all my cities has Orthodoxy.
7) Increase number of Seljuks Turks to spread Islam in Anatolia BUT
8) Decrease number of Ottomans on spawn

i would like stress something about 7) and 8). There shouldnt be any Ottomans west of Constantinople in 1300. believe me with Islam in Anatolia the Ottomans can more than make up for it. Come on the Turk, you know thats true.

EDIT: Germany should really be settling into Brandenburg Province more often.

5) Make the Pope more efficient in spreading Catholicism and building temples/monasteries, giving gold etc
6) Control spread of Orthodoxy, at least by a bit. Its understandable for Orthodoxy to spread, but its ridiculous when as Austria almost all my cities has Orthodoxy.
7) Increase number of Seljuks Turks to spread Islam in Anatolia BUT
8) Decrease number of Ottomans on spawn


5) Agreed; plus did that ACTUALLY ever happen in real life? The Pope giving away money and building churches?
6) YES! As I mentioned below in my list, Orthodoxy keeps coming up in the WEIRDEST places ever! It's just really strange, have an Orthodox Bourdeux or Toulouse
7) Yes, the Seljuks are too weak against the AI Byzantines, and they don't capture the interior of Anatolia like they did. BUT... I would give a boost to the Byzantine stability, just to represent that great lose of territory. But basically when the Ottoman come along the Seljuks/Barb's should AT LEAST have nominal control of the interior of Anatolia.
8) I'm actually surprised you don't know this, considering the fact that you claim to know more about Byzantine history than I do, but you should know that the Byzantines were shipping Turks over to the European side (across the Bosporus) to use them in their own armies and to counter barbarians, thus starting the Turkification of the Balkans. I would therefore recommend the Ottomans starting off with an army near on the European side, but not with an actual city. But that is something the game creators can think of, whether to do or not, as I believe it will be a balancing issue.
As for the huge Ottoman army, I think if you increase pressure of the Seljuk Turks on the Byzantines, the Ottoman army should be decreased, but I would like to stress more the decrease in settlers, the Ottomans really don't need any settlers anyway.


Also on a separate note, are you guys thinking of making a unique "Dawn of Mankind" text for RFCEurope? If so, I have a few ideas for a couple of entries.

@FakeShady
Perhaps more people on this forum would be more welcome to your ideas if you were politer and less aggressive/dismissive to people; I think I speak for quite a few people. Just a friendly suggestion, as some of your ideas are quite good and I would hate to see them wasted :)
And yes, that type of new mercenary system would have a HUGE impact on gameplay, as I for one would actually start hiring USEFUL mercenaries, rather than crappy minoan spearmen

5) Agreed; plus did that ACTUALLY ever happen in real life? The Pope giving away money and building churches?
i believe so...


8) I'm actually surprised you don't know this, considering the fact that you claim to know more about Byzantine history than I do, but you should know that the Byzantines were shipping Turks over to the European side (across the Bosporus) to use them in their own armies and to counter barbarians, thus starting the Turkification of the Balkans.

They're Byzantine mercenaries, the Ottomans back then. They were hired as mercenaries, to help some Byzantine king with his civil war. What if the Byzantines in the game didnt need/hire mercenaries? Thats more than just an army btw, thats a crazy amount of soldiers. And more often than not their first target is Constantinople, so how on earth do they represent Byzantine mercenaries? You tell me lol.


As for the huge Ottoman army, I think if you increase pressure of the Seljuk Turks on the Byzantines, the Ottoman army should be decreased, but I would like to stress more the decrease in settlers, the Ottomans really don't need any settlers anyway.



Thank you!!! I sure am glad we can finally agree on something. I think we would both agree we wanna see a muslim Anatolia, a not so helpless Byzantium and a not too powerful Ottoman Turks, agree?

4) Slow down the tech rate. Its about time someone move Protestantism back to Printing Press, timed to be founded around 1500?


What game are you playing? Protestantism is founded with the Printing Press and it is timed for 1517. It is no listed on the Tech screen since the code is in Python and the AI often times ignores the Printing Press until much later.

What game are you playing? Protestantism is founded with the Printing Press and it is timed for 1517. It is no listed on the Tech screen since the code is in Python and the AI often times ignores the Printing Press until much later.

errr beta 8, last i checked. ohhhhhhhhhh i see. Germany always founds Protestantism around 1500, so i assumed they reached Industrial Revolution already, my bad :lol:

Was the tech trade change still being implemented or at least tried? Kind of sad to start a game with the late spawners and all major players having the same techs with very little variation.

Was the tech trade change still being implemented or at least tried? Kind of sad to start a game with the late spawners and all major players having the same techs with very little variation.

Seconded, very very seconded. As Austria, which isnt very late, i am already seriously lagging behind. Thats not to say all late spawners is techonologically behind though ;)

About the Ottomans:

Historically, Constantinople was the last thing to fall on the Balkans, the Ottomans had everything else and kept it for some time. However, unlike the real Ottomans and the Human player, the AI cannot transfer troops between Asia and Europe without a land connection. This we have a limited set of options:

- If the Ottomans start without anything on the Balkans, then they will have to fight their way trough Constantinople (the city would be the first thing to fall). As a Human, it would be very easy to hold off the invasion since you could use the Theodosian walls.

- The Ottomans can start with only a large army in Europe, then Constantinople or Adrianopolis would be their first target. Even if Adrianopolis is the first target, Constantinople would have to be the second. Both cities would fall ahistorically early, but it does give the Ottomans a weapon against the Human.

- What I think is the best solution: move the Ottoman start to around 1350AD (conquest of Adrianopolis). Keep everything else on the start "as it is right now". Constantinople would still fall around 1400AD, but this is not as ahistoric.

Ok, here is my suggestion for the Turks:
1. Up the Seljuk Turk Pressure/Barb pressure in general, and have them target the interior of Anatolia.
2. Move their start date to 1326, when they ACTUALLY conquered Bursa, and established themselves as a real power in Western Anatolia. NO settlers
3. Have an army spawn on the other side of the Bosporus in 1347, the year the Byzantine Emperor John gave them permission to make raids against Bulgarians and Byzantine enemies of the Emperor.
4. (OPTIONAL) Have the Ottomans move their capital from Bursa to Adrianople (Edrine) once they capture it, and then move it to Constantinople afterwords.
Tell me what you think :)
By the way, how are the Janissaries represented in this game? As I believe the Janissaries were a lot more famous and unique than stereotypical "Great Bombards".

Ok, here is my suggestion for the Turks:
1. Up the Seljuk Turk Pressure/Barb pressure in general, and have them target the interior of Anatolia.
2. Move their start date to 1326, when they ACTUALLY conquered Bursa, and established themselves as a real power in Western Anatolia. NO settlers
3. Have an army spawn on the other side of the Bosporus in 1347, the year the Byzantine Emperor John gave them permission to make raids against Bulgarians and Byzantine enemies of the Emperor.
4. (OPTIONAL) Have the Ottomans move their capital from Bursa to Adrianople (Edrine) once they capture it, and then move it to Constantinople afterwords.
Tell me what you think :)
By the way, how are the Janissaries represented in this game? As I believe the Janissaries were a lot more famous and unique than stereotypical "Great Bombards".

1. Yes with stronger Byzantium we should strengthen the Seljuks.
2. Later spawn date was my suggestion too.
3. Army .... what if the Ottomans and the Byzantines sign peace by then? What if the Ottomans and/or Byzantines get destroyed by then? The army spawn is best done with the flip mechanics. We can spawn the Ottomans in 1347 (which is only 7 turns after 1326) and then they will "flip" Adrianopolis around the correct date, plus the army that can go either vs Constantinople, Thessaloníki or anywhere in Bulgaria.
4. Moving capitals is something I have been thinking of, however, it is low priority since there so little difference (the there cities are right next to each other).

Janissaries are the Ottoman UP, although we should probably change that from draft to just plain "free units upon conquest of a city with Christians".

Ok, here is my suggestion for the Turks:
1. Up the Seljuk Turk Pressure/Barb pressure in general, and have them target the interior of Anatolia.
2. Move their start date to 1326, when they ACTUALLY conquered Bursa, and established themselves as a real power in Western Anatolia. NO settlers
3. Have an army spawn on the other side of the Bosporus in 1347, the year the Byzantine Emperor John gave them permission to make raids against Bulgarians and Byzantine enemies of the Emperor.
4. (OPTIONAL) Have the Ottomans move their capital from Bursa to Adrianople (Edrine) once they capture it, and then move it to Constantinople afterwords.
Tell me what you think :)
By the way, how are the Janissaries represented in this game? As I believe the Janissaries were a lot more famous and unique than stereotypical "Great Bombards".

So you're saying up the Seljuks, AND the Ottomans stay as strong? Well what did i expect, you're The Turk.

From a byzantine viewpoint, if theres nothing that can stop Ottomans from swallowing up 90% of your land when actually you're doing very well, then theres really no point in playing them.

EDIT: "Janissaries are the Ottoman UP, although we should probably change that from draft to just plain "free units upon conquest of a city with Christians". Seriously, MORE units? Byzantium is hopeless. Just add it a code that make Byzantium surrender once Ottomans spawn. Save the trouble.

what about the timurids? they should be kicking some ottoman ass real hard but they are just as weak

So you're saying up the Seljuks, AND the Ottomans stay as strong? Well what did i expect, you're The Turk.

From a byzantine viewpoint, if theres nothing that can stop Ottomans from swallowing up 90% of your land when actually you're doing very well, then theres really no point in playing them.

EDIT: "Janissaries are the Ottoman UP, although we should probably change that from draft to just plain "free units upon conquest of a city with Christians". Seriously, MORE units? Byzantium is hopeless. Just add it a code that make Byzantium surrender once Ottomans spawn. Save the trouble.

what about the timurids? they should be kicking some ottoman ass real hard but they are just as weak

This mod is rigged for Byzantine doom at ottoman spawn. Why are you so surprised when this is discussed?

When I play Byzantines I have no problems with the ottomans. Only they AI.

This mod is rigged for Byzantine doom at ottoman spawn. Why are you so surprised when this is discussed?

Yep i realized by now. Not surprised at all.

When I play Byzantines I have no problems with the ottomans. Only they AI.

REALLY? And how exactly do you prevent them from swallowing up like, all of yyour lands when you're actually doing quite well?

You guys know what. I give up. Theres no point replaying Byzantium 1000 times when no one hear cares about how well Byzantine is doing. Im not gonna defend that piece of sh!t anymore if people on the forum, well, meant it to be sh!t. If no one can be bothered about Byzantine feedback... well i guess neither can i.

To the Turk, well, guess you've won. You have far too much time and posts and insistence on your side, and whether u admit it or not your constant pro-middle-east posts has had a significant influence on the game. My spontaneous tendency to laugh at things i find hilarious didnt help me either. Still, well played dude

Then please raise your player ability. If you cannot prepare an army before the Ottomans spawn and attack them, well, we're very sorry but we have to listen to more 'skillful' testers that say that Byzantium is strong. I mean, if someone says China is very weak in RFC, who would listen to him? With some thought Byzantium can be played very well into a powerciv. To be honest, I believe you are just too much based and frankly just trying to disagree with The Turk. Be honest to yourself, that is not the way you should use your undoubtly very valuable time. I don't mind if people don't have the skill needed to win the game, but then please listen to people that do have skill. Or for example, post a save game where you say: this is clearly wrong. Then we can decide whether it's a lack of style or an actual problem, because at this stage I believe that you are not contributing at all anymore. Believe me, I read any post in this forum.

When i think about it. Byzantium, norse, arabia and cordoba are all almost nearly scripted to collapse. That means they have to be somewhat unbalanced!

Then please raise your player ability. If you cannot prepare an army before the Ottomans spawn and attack them, well, we're very sorry but we have to listen to more 'skillful' testers that say that Byzantium is strong.
word. :hatsoff:

To be honest, I believe you are just too much based and frankly just trying to disagree with The Turk. Be honest to yourself, that is not the way you should use your undoubtly very valuable time.
Good not agree more. Thank You Wessel :)

@FakeShady
Just play on prince if you have a problem with the Byzantines. The ottomans should not be any problem then


When i think about it. Byzantium, norse, arabia and cordoba are all almost nearly scripted to collapse. That means they have to be somewhat unbalanced!
Byzantium: Collapsed 1453, although by then they were already reduced to ONLY Constantinople, while in this game the AI can still retain several cities in Anatolia and Greece
Norse: pre 10th century they were in rapid decline globally
Arabia (Abbasid Caliphate): 1258 AT LATEST; although after 850 they were in decline
Cordoba: 1039, Al-Andalus collapses into different taifa states, end of the Golden Age.

So why are they "almost" scripted to die away, hmmm... well here are a few suggestions
1) Because their UHV's are finished
2) Its historically accurate, and because of #1
3) They need to make room for another historical empire which is about to rise:
Byzantium: Ottomans; yes surprise surprise the Ottomans destroyed the Byzantines GET OVER IT.
Norse: Sweden; although they also respawn confined to Denmark/Norway which is good
Arabia: Crusaders, Ottomans, possible respawning in Egypt as an Egyptian Caliphate (Fatimid, Ayyubid, Mamluk)
Cordoba: Spain, Portugal and the respawning of the Almoravid/Almohad and later Nasirid Empire's.

Hope that answers your complaint :)
---------------------------------------------

As for the Janissaries having free troops pop up, is a bit unfair I will say. But why not just have it so that you can draft 2 OR 3 units per turn, and in a Christian city you can make Janissaries, a kind of "new" Ottoman UU.

Tanja should start with Islam and Judaism (and perhaps Catholicism as well) should spread to Cordoba right after the city is founded. Like Judaism spreading to San'a in SoI

The Visigoths did not have horsearchers as which to attack the Cordobans with.

There should be an event in game, (like 1054 with the Great Schism between Orthodox and Catholic civ's) in 750 AD when the Arabs become hostile to the Cordobans, to represent the rise of the Abbasid Caliphate and the massacre of the Ummayad Caliphate leading Abd al-Rahman fleeing to Cordoba. In general post-750 AD the Arabs and Cordobans should be worst enemies.

Aquitania and Provence (which was ruled by the Caliphate of Cordoba for some time) should be a ok stability province for the Cordobans, seeing how far they conquered into France (up to Tours, and stopped in 732). You can look here (http://www.load-islam.com/maps/mexpan.jpg) or here (http://individual.utoronto.ca/hayes/earlychurch/map732CE.gif) for greater reference.
On that note Arabic for Tolos (Toulouse) is طلوشة; but as I cannot read Arabic, try to find someone who can make that into a phonetic name. Also for your information I got it from this (http://baheyeldin.com/writings/history/list-of-arabic-and-spanish-names-for-iberian-cities-and-places.html) very handy site, you may want to use later

Another fact is that the Cordobans should also get Oran and even perhaps Algiers (debatable) as an OK stability area

Whats the difference between an Islamic Madrassa and a "House of Wisdom"?

All "Church/Cathedral" type wonders REALLY should need their religion present in the city to build. For example building Notre Dame in Cordoba is ridiculous when it only has Islam and Judaism. The same goes for Muslim wonders.

Then please raise your player ability. If you cannot prepare an army before the Ottomans spawn and attack them, well, we're very sorry but we have to listen to more 'skillful' testers that say that Byzantium is strong. I mean, if someone says China is very weak in RFC, who would listen to him? With some thought Byzantium can be played very well into a powerciv. To be honest, I believe you are just too much based and frankly just trying to disagree with The Turk. Be honest to yourself, that is not the way you should use your undoubtly very valuable time. I don't mind if people don't have the skill needed to win the game, but then please listen to people that do have skill. Or for example, post a save game where you say: this is clearly wrong. Then we can decide whether it's a lack of style or an actual problem, because at this stage I believe that you are not contributing at all anymore. Believe me, I read any post in this forum.

Very well, since you think im biased and obviously doesnt get my point, i shall stop with all the Byzantine feedback and we shall see what becomes of Byzantium by Beta 10 ;)

Very well, since you think im biased and obviously doesnt get my point, i shall stop with all the Byzantine feedback and we shall see what becomes of Byzantium by Beta 10 ;)

Thats great FakeShady, in fact if you could stop posting all unrelated posts here (a complete 180 degrees for you) I think we might actually get some good ideas into this mod, rather than having trolls control this thread with their petty complaints and arguments. :lol:

Please don't flame other members.

Ah, it wasnt a complaint. It was more a reminder to testers why some civs feel unbalanced!

Balance is something different in this Mod. We have two goals:

1. Without intervention form the Human, the AI should more often then not follow real history, at least to the extent allowed by the game engine and mechanics.

2. In the hands of the Human, all UHV conditions should be doable AND they should be challenging.

We have 1 done mostly right and we are slowly converging on 2. Once we have those complete, the mod will be Balanced.

Note: this is in no way different from standard RFC, try as Human Babylon to conquer Persia or India, or Human Egypt conquering Rome or the Dutch conquering Russia. Those are not "balanced" in the sense of "equal", but they are "balanced" in the sense of the two conditions above.

rather than having trolls control this thread with their petty complaints and arguments. :lol:

LOL talk about irony

On that note Arabic for Tolos (Toulouse) is طلوشة; but as I cannot read Arabic, try to find someone who can make that into a phonetic name.

It would be translated to Talusha or Taloosha.

Whats the difference between an Islamic Madrassa and a "House of Wisdom"?

Madrassa is a generic secondary school, essentially it only means "place of teaching". Beginning in the 11th century in Seljuq controlled Iran and Asia minor it was a place to study not only religious topics but also mathematics, logics, astronomy, grammar etc. Similar function to monastery but open to all.

House of wisdom is bait al-hikma in Arabic. It was a kind of university first founded by Abbasid caliph al-Mamun about 820 AD. The collection, translation and dispersion of Greek works on philosophy and sciences was its main task.

Beta 8

Portugal's 2nd UHV won't count (never lose a city 'til 1640)
It's 1666, I haven't lost a city. (not marked as failed either)

But besides that, I wonder what went wrong here :)
Somehow it's not the situation I had in mind when I started the game

Stability has become somewhat of an issue but manageable (new civics sytem will prob help allot)(and hopefully a new UB)
I would've liked to kill Cordoba but they're quite strong and if I raze their cities it seems to hurt me more than them :/
no clue how to handle Cordoba when playing Portugal (Cordoba can be quite a harrasment at sea as well)


Turkey(orthodox),England, Muscovy, Bulgaria are the top 4
Cordoba has Medici Banks
England built allot of stuff (colonies, wonders)
Why won't Cordoba just collapse? :cry:
I'm actually happy that they're beating up Spain this time instead of me...


I only have a save from either 1666 or 1425

Beta 8

Portugal's 2nd UHV won't count (never lose a city 'til 1640)

It's 1666, I haven't lost a city. (not marked as failed either)


Probably a bug.


But besides that I wonder what went wrong here :)
Somehow it's not the situation I had in mind when I started the game

Stability has become somewhat of an issue but manageable (new civics sytem will prob help allot)(and hopefully a new UB)


Will test it, but it should be "manageable".


I would've liked to kill Cordoba but they're quite strong and if I raze their cities it seems to hurt me more than them :/
no clue how to handle Cordoba when playing Portugal (Cordoba can be quite a harrasment at sea as well)


Cordoba staying strong can break the dynamics. If they attack you, you should get help from the Pope (I need to look at the war maps, I guess Cordoba is not in your war map is it?)

Razing cities is a bug (same one for the Norse).


Turkey(orthodox),England, Muscovy, Bulgaria are the top 4


I still haven't figured out Orthodox Turkey ....


Why won't Cordoba just collapse? :cry:


If they are shaky/unstable, instead of razing cities, try pillaging improvements (and make that lots of Improvements).

with sability I only meant that I have to be careful when expanding (the bureaucracy issue when more than 5 cities)

I meat the whole world situation with 'what went wrong'
whimpy spain, france
the whole civ rankings in general



Cordoba staying strong can break the dynamics. If they attack you, you should get help from the Pope (I need to look at the war maps, I guess Cordoba is not in your war map is it?)

umm, if I look at the warmap for Portugal in the reference folder
nope, only Portugal's core area and the atlantic islands (not a spot in morocco)


and well the Pope...:lol: he's not my friend when playing Portugal :)
the war usually starts when a city flips from Cordoba to Portugal around 2 turns after spawn, at that point the Pope couldn't care less about Portugal and that doesn't change
Cordoba is then usually quite intent on waging war againt you until either they die or they get what they want.

If they are shaky/unstable, instead of razing cities, try pillaging improvements (and make that lots of Improvements).
how about 'rock-solid' ? I was thinking more along something like atomic weapons or divine intervention :D (meteor hits Cordoba)

I was thinking more along something like atomic weapons or divine intervention :D (meteor hits Cordoba)

Nukes are a bit later than the mod ending date so we decided to not include them. As for the Divine Intervention, you should have gotten one from the Pope ;) The Defensive Crusade mechanics need to be improved, you should have gotten 2 - 3 Heavy Lancers/Knights (plus some infantry) on at least couple of occasions.

Right now Defensive Crusades look at the war maps, since Cordoba is not included in your you will receive help only if you lose a city. I need to extend that.

Last game as Arabia i had Cordoba as vassal (that helps their stability?) they crashed after the third Crusade against them.

It would be translated to Talusha or Taloosha.

I'm not really sure if there are some differences for the names in cordoban or not
It should be the same name for Cordoba too?

Madrassa is a generic secondary school, essentially it only means "place of teaching". Beginning in the 11th century in Seljuq controlled Iran and Asia minor it was a place to study not only religious topics but also mathematics, logics, astronomy, grammar etc. Similar function to monastery but open to all.

House of wisdom is bait al-hikma in Arabic. It was a kind of university first founded by Abbasid caliph al-Mamun about 820 AD. The collection, translation and dispersion of Greek works on philosophy and sciences was its main task.
Yes, Madrassa should have the same bonuses as christian monasteries. Even if there are some obvious differences, it's better this way for gameplay.

Btw, right now monasteries needs only religion present in the city (so you can build them without adopting cath/orth as a state religion), while madrassa requires islam as a state religion.
Madrassas should be treated the same way: every city with islam should be able to build it.

House of wisdom should remain the way it is now - you can only build them if you adopt islam as a state religion

I'm not really sure if there are some differences for the names in cordoban or not
It should be the same name for Cordoba too?

As far as I know the Andalusian Arabs (read: Cordobans) used the same kind of Arabic as those in the Middle East in those times. Though there always was a discrepancy between the spoken colloquial language and the written official one, as is still today.
The Arabic Wikipedia article on Toulouse actually spells it Tulooz/Tuluz but mentions a University of Taloosha in 1229 AD.

I'm not really sure if there are some differences for the names in cordoban or not
It should be the same name for Cordoba too?


I already answered that (check the website posted) ;)
Here are my comments, can someone please comment on them after playing a long Cordoban game:

As for the Janissaries having free troops pop up, is a bit unfair I will say. But why not just have it so that you can draft 2 OR 3 units per turn, and in a Christian city you can make Janissaries, a kind of "new" Ottoman UU.

Tanja should start with Islam and Judaism (and perhaps Catholicism as well) should spread to Cordoba right after the city is founded. Like Judaism spreading to San'a in SoI

The Visigoths did not have horsearchers as which to attack the Cordobans with.

There should be an event in game, (like 1054 with the Great Schism between Orthodox and Catholic civ's) in 750 AD when the Arabs become hostile to the Cordobans, to represent the rise of the Abbasid Caliphate and the massacre of the Ummayad Caliphate leading Abd al-Rahman fleeing to Cordoba. In general post-750 AD the Arabs and Cordobans should be worst enemies.

Aquitania and Provence (which was ruled by the Caliphate of Cordoba for some time) should be a ok stability province for the Cordobans, seeing how far they conquered into France (up to Tours, and stopped in 732). You can look here (http://www.load-islam.com/maps/mexpan.jpg) or here (http://individual.utoronto.ca/hayes/earlychurch/map732CE.gif) for greater reference.
On that note Arabic for Tolos (Toulouse) is طلوشة; but as I cannot read Arabic, try to find someone who can make that into a phonetic name. Also for your information I got it from this (http://baheyeldin.com/writings/history/list-of-arabic-and-spanish-names-for-iberian-cities-and-places.html) very handy site, you may want to use later

Another fact is that the Cordobans should also get Oran and even perhaps Algiers (debatable) as an OK stability area

Whats the difference between an Islamic Madrassa and a "House of Wisdom"?

All "Church/Cathedral" type wonders REALLY should need their religion present in the city to build. For example building Notre Dame in Cordoba is ridiculous when it only has Islam and Judaism. The same goes for Muslim wonders.

Very well, since you think im biased and obviously doesnt get my point, i shall stop with all the Byzantine feedback and we shall see what becomes of Byzantium by Beta 10 ;)

Obviously I do. I simply disagree. Byzantium is not hard to play, and you are a little exaggerating trying to convince us Byzantium is weak. And yes I do consider you biased, but you are not the only one who I consider biased in the subforum (look at Iberia for example), so that's perfectly normal. However, the point is that I have the feeling that you aren't trying to communicate your point in a normal way, but just shouting out loud that your favourite civ is being toned down AGAIN. I'll tell you: that is not what happened. I think that we (= you and the other posters) have a slight disagreement of what should happen. What I think and most others think that should happen, is that the human player must struggle to survive, hold off several attacks from multiple enemies and in the end survive with Greece and Anatolia under it's control and when played well, some other parts of the map. It is not reasonable to make suggestions to make Byzantium stronger than that. Fine, I'll play another game as Byzantium, beta 8. We'll see what happens. FYI, I have achieved all UHVs on Monarch in RFC ([/show off mode], so I hope I know what I'm talking about. I won't say that my findings reflect the actual situation, but I'll see if it is hard or not.

I already answered that (check the website posted) ;)
Here are my comments, can someone please comment on them after playing a long Cordoban game:

As for the Janissaries having free troops pop up, is a bit unfair I will say. But why not just have it so that you can draft 2 OR 3 units per turn, and in a Christian city you can make Janissaries, a kind of "new" Ottoman UU.

Tanja should start with Islam and Judaism (and perhaps Catholicism as well) should spread to Cordoba right after the city is founded. Like Judaism spreading to San'a in SoI

The Visigoths did not have horsearchers as which to attack the Cordobans with.

There should be an event in game, (like 1054 with the Great Schism between Orthodox and Catholic civ's) in 750 AD when the Arabs become hostile to the Cordobans, to represent the rise of the Abbasid Caliphate and the massacre of the Ummayad Caliphate leading Abd al-Rahman fleeing to Cordoba. In general post-750 AD the Arabs and Cordobans should be worst enemies.

Aquitania and Provence (which was ruled by the Caliphate of Cordoba for some time) should be a ok stability province for the Cordobans, seeing how far they conquered into France (up to Tours, and stopped in 732). You can look here (http://www.load-islam.com/maps/mexpan.jpg) or here (http://individual.utoronto.ca/hayes/earlychurch/map732CE.gif) for greater reference.
On that note Arabic for Tolos (Toulouse) is طلوشة; but as I cannot read Arabic, try to find someone who can make that into a phonetic name. Also for your information I got it from this (http://baheyeldin.com/writings/history/list-of-arabic-and-spanish-names-for-iberian-cities-and-places.html) very handy site, you may want to use later

Another fact is that the Cordobans should also get Oran and even perhaps Algiers (debatable) as an OK stability area

Whats the difference between an Islamic Madrassa and a "House of Wisdom"?

All "Church/Cathedral" type wonders REALLY should need their religion present in the city to build. For example building Notre Dame in Cordoba is ridiculous when it only has Islam and Judaism. The same goes for Muslim wonders.

Look there are many of you and only one of me, and I have to find time to code too. Even if I don't respond to every comment, I do read them all.

- Getting a second UU for the Ottomans would make little difference in helping them. They can already draft ... I don't know how "free units" would affect them.

- Many more of the Indies do start with religion, however, this causes Cordoba to turn Catholic .... working on it.

- Visigoth HA would be changed.

- I don't like putting Arabia and Cordoba against each other. Going form one end of the map to the next is a stretch for the Human and impossible for the AI. Also, if they dislike each other, then they will not OB with each other and that would certainly hurt them.

- The Battle of Tours was discussed and as it was pointed out, it was not nearly as significant as it was made to be. Also, there is nothing to prevent you from invading "Unstable" provinces, you just need to make sure you have the stability to keep them.

- Oran will be added to Cordoba.

- House of Wisdom exists to represent the early edge in science that the Muslims had. It becomes obsolete around the time of the Crusaded (Chivalry).

- Most Churches/Cathedrals do require a specific religion. There are also "religion independent" wonders. Palace des Papes is clearly associated with the Pope, however, Notre Dame could have been build as a large Mosque. This allows for some ahistroicity. Same with Muslim wonders, Dome of the Rock can only be build by a Muslim, however, La Mezquita can belong to any religion.

Obviously I do. I simply disagree. Byzantium is not hard to play, and you are a little exaggerating trying to convince us Byzantium is weak. And yes I do consider you biased, but you are not the only one who I consider biased in the subforum (look at Iberia for example), so that's perfectly normal. However, the point is that I have the feeling that you aren't trying to communicate your point in a normal way, but just shouting out loud that your favourite civ is being toned down AGAIN. I'll tell you: that is not what happened. I think that we (= you and the other posters) have a slight disagreement of what should happen. What I think and most others think that should happen, is that the human player must struggle to survive, hold off several attacks from multiple enemies and in the end survive with Greece and Anatolia under it's control and when played well, some other parts of the map. It is not reasonable to make suggestions to make Byzantium stronger than that. Fine, I'll play another game as Byzantium, beta 8. We'll see what happens. FYI, I have achieved all UHVs on Monarch in RFC ([/show off mode], so I hope I know what I'm talking about. I won't say that my findings reflect the actual situation, but I'll see if it is hard or not.

AND you still dont get my point :lol: never mind its okay, i dont intend on playing Byzantium anymore anyway. Unlike what most people think about me, i actually DO enjoy playing as the Ottomans :D

I have noticed that in beta 8 turtling in benefits civs strongly, meaning that defensive civs usually end up quite strong, Cordoba for exemple, while expansive civs usually crash.

AND you still dont get my point :lol: never mind its okay, i dont intend on playing Byzantium anymore anyway. Unlike what most people think about me, i actually DO enjoy playing as the Ottomans :D

Okay, I don't want to start an argument anyway so I'll stay silent for now...

Okay, I don't want to start an argument anyway so I'll stay silent for now...

He says?

EDIT: never mind.

Responses:

- Getting a second UU for the Ottomans would make little difference in helping them. They can already draft ... I don't know how "free units" would affect them.
Well why wouldn't it help them? And they don't need a "new UU", they can just have Musketmen, who when drafted are called "Janissaries". That would be the best UP for them IMO.

- Many more of the Indies do start with religion, however, this causes Cordoba to turn Catholic .... working on it.
Well just let the Cordobans start with more Muslim Missionaries, and have them start off with being Muslim, rather than having them convert! And I'm just saying in general that quite a few independent cities, deserve to have a religion. Palermo, should have Catholicism, Judaism and Islam, and the same goes for Cordoba, where Judaism and Catholicism should spread to it. Just make the Cordoban AI resist converting to other religions.

Also as for the Vikings, I would have starting around 1000 AD have Catholicism spread automatically to some of their cities, or else they become Orthodox Christian :crazyeye:

- Visigoth HA would be changed.
Good! But what have you changed it to?

- I don't like putting Arabia and Cordoba against each other. Going form one end of the map to the next is a stretch for the Human and impossible for the AI. Also, if they dislike each other, then they will not OB with each other and that would certainly hurt them.
Well thats what happened historically, and historically Cordoba did not have much friends. And anyway in my last game I had open borders with the Burgundians, the Norse and the Germans, and don't think its that big of a deal. And anyway you said the Cordobans were a tad OP, so having the Cordobans and the Arabs on bad terms is good, and why do they need to declare war? Basically they should be first Furious with each other and then Annoyed, and then farther on, their tempers can be reset from that fateful day in 750 AD.

- The Battle of Tours was discussed and as it was pointed out, it was not nearly as significant as it was made to be. Also, there is nothing to prevent you from invading "Unstable" provinces, you just need to make sure you have the stability to keep them.
Ok, I'm sorry but who ever said that the Battle of Tours was "not significant" is an idiot. And I know I can still invade an "unstable" territory, but thats the thing, it makes you unstable! And the Cordoban AI will never want to take it! The Battle of Tours was VERY important, and those territories should DEFINITELY be added to their maps. In fact if I were you, I would add "Muslim Barbarians" who attack the Southern French cities. That would be great fun!
In that same way Sicily should ALSO be added to the Arab OK stability map, or else that would be ridiclous, plus seeing an Arab Sicily would be hella cool :D Especially if you have to fight a war to remove them from it. In the past I actually have seen the AI Arabs take it, and when I play as the Arabs I always make it a goal to capture Sicily


Surprisingly though, when I took Toulouse, the French never tried to take it back :confused: Shouldn't they be jumping at me to capture that territory, which should be considered "theirs". And by the way I captured it from the inde's.

- Oran will be added to Cordoba.
Oh good! :)
But why not Anqutine and Provence? Can't you just make them "OK" provinces to attack/settle?
Also I hope you make the changes to the Cordoban settler maps for Toulouse and others. The website provided should make your life A LOT easier ;)


- Most Churches/Cathedrals do require a specific religion. There are also "religion independent" wonders. Palace des Papes is clearly associated with the Pope, however, Notre Dame could have been build as a large Mosque. This allows for some ahistroicity. Same with Muslim wonders, Dome of the Rock can only be build by a Muslim, however, La Mezquita can belong to any religion.

Ok I'm sorry, but thats just absurd, completely absurd. You need to AT LEAST have the the religion in that city to build it, if not have your state religion match it, or else thats just weird and plain not fun, when you have the Cordobans building everything. I mean how can the Sistine Chapel be built in Damascus?? PLEASE change each religious wonder to a specific religion, or else this is just crazy talk.

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Other Comments:

Also if you want, I was thinking that for the Austrian 3rd UHV you can rename it, instead of "Habsburg Alliances", "Holy Alliance" (a famous one between Prussia, Austria and Russia)

Another thing was that why not you remove the "beavers" who are totally out of place, and add in another graphic for "furs", I know Edead did that for SoI, and instead added in leopards which made more sense. You should consider making the change as well. Perhaps bears?

Also shoulden't Temple Mount be pre-placed in Jerusalem, since its ALREADY been built by this time? I mean your not making a mod about the Ancient Hebrews :lol:

Another problem is that Marco Polo's Embassy is being built WAYYYYYY too early, do you mind moving it up the tech tree :)
And Militarism so early on does not make sense in the European style. Having Vassalage early on is fine IMO. Can't you just change it back to later in the tech tree:sad:

And lastly, for the love of God, please change the "Masjid Al-Haram" which is situated in Mecca (not even on this map :crazyeye:), and just change its name to, "The Great Mosque of Damascus" OR "The Ummayad Mosque" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umayyad_Mosque)
And on that note, can you please change the Muslim holy city to Jerusalem, it just makes SOO much more sense, since Jerusalem is the third holiest city in Islam. Also if the Crusaders take it, it will make more sense for the Arabs to want to get it back.

Also I know your still working on civ names (at least I think you are), but why not you change the German Kingdom to "Holy Roman Empire", because frankly the HRE is not at all very well represented in this mod :(
Also on the note of name's for the "Arabic Knowledge" tech, it should instead be called, "Arab Knowledge". Also shouldn't it be moved back? At least on the same level as Gunpowder if not even a layer behind that. It just seems way too far in the tech tree.
And the Austrians shouldn't start with so many useless Archers, IMO just remove those 5 archers, and give them 2-3 crossbowmen.

When playing as Austria, I flipped Salzburg a German city and they declared war on me. Can you make it so that the Germans and Austrians are on very good terms with each other, because historically in the 13th century weren't they part of the SAME Empire even? So IMO they really should be best of friends

And VERY lastly, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE remove Joan of Arc as a French Leader and instead use the Clovis I LH that has been made, and I know you already have Charlemagne so you can rename the Clovis LH to another leader after Charlemagne, but its just TOO ridiculous that Joan of Arc is a leader of the entire French nation.

Oh wow Turk you are getting really intense here. The majority of the things here are for balancing reasons:
1. 2 UUs for only 1 civ, that's inconsistent. IMO janissaries could be a UU as the UP sucks
2. I think muslim missionaries are good, aren't there some already? Let's just let them convert, it'd be easier (1 turn loss, no big deal)
3. Tours is simply too hard to recreate. The Moors went to Tours and retreated in a matter of years, that's one turn... you can't represent a huge military move like that in less than 50 years gameplay. Plus France spawns earlier and gobbles up toulouse around 1000, and Spain is supposed to conquer all that territory Cordoba has taken with issues taking just Toledo as it is? Too hard and complicated for the AI to pull off.
4. This is to not make byzantine or another early civ take all the wonders, and to more evenly distribute wonders among religions. Also some wonders work a lot better with a more specific set of civs.
5. Why not furs... there are european beavers...
6. Marco Polo: I totally agree, it's usually built 200 years earlier than historically, some tech balancing could be in order, I think it's place in the tech tree is probably fine, it gets obsoleted after all.
7. Didn't know it was in Mecca, we probably should change that. Unless you can do the spawn in Jerusalem with no bugs, I don't see why we should change it. Also Damascus has serious food issues, I think it needs that oasis farther up.
8. It more shows the conflict between German nobles and Austrian Hapsburg control. It works fine ingame I think. I support the crossbow change.
9. I think Joan of Arc is fine, with so few women in the mod its good to have her.

@The Turk: cool down a little, stop the name-calling, play and enjoy a few games. Then you can see that the Ottomans do start Muslim and with 3 Missionaries. Also, there is a difference between Settlers Map, Wars Map and Stability (Province) Map.

Remember that many Mosques and Cathedrals served more than one religion. Spanish converted many Mosques to Churches and Ottomans did the reverse. Some wonders are very specifically tied to one religion or another (Round Church is the fracture of Orthodox Churches along political borders, Palas des Papas is associated with the Pope, Dome of the Rock is tied to a specific belief in Islam). Other Cathedrals/Churches are more religion independent, if Haga Sophia can be a Mosque in real life, I don't see why Notre Dame cannot be a Mosque too (or Orthodox, or Protestant).

Masjid Al-Haram is more of the "road to Masjid Al-Haram". Since Mecca is not on the map, we had to make Damascus the Muslim Holy City. The name should probably be adjusted (or just changed to something else).

Ignore Civ names, they are broken.

Arabic/Arab Knowledge comes in 1493AD. I will consider the balancing issues if moved further.

The Temple Mount is supposed to be the Old Synagogue in Krakow, representing the Polish tolerance to the Jews.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Synagogue_(Krak%C3%B3w)

Well I am calm, and I'm not calling anybody names, thats for sure ;)
Also, I'm just trying to make this mod better than it is currently, as I know this mod has such potential :D

A few more comments:

1. What was the point of having Frankfurt as the German capital? Why not Aachen which for the early part of the game was the favored capital where all HRE kings got crowned? I've seen the Germans build the city quite a few times, so I know it is a doable capital.

2. Domyat is in the wrong place, its located on the Mediterranean, but here is is on the Red Sea :sad:
To be exact Domyat should be on plot (88, 4). The plot is currently mud/marsh, can you change it to "grassland", this would allow for the city to be built.
Also al-Qahira should be founded on(87, 1). If anything the city should spawn in 641, when the city was actually created (under the name al-Fustat, but we can just skip that part if you want ;) ). Because having a game with Cairo is a tad strange.

3. I never see the Arabs respawn correctly. Once they collapse, they should immediately respawn, but not in Damascus but in Egypt with a capital at Cairo. This way the Crusaders will have a tough time holding on to the Levant. For extra shits and giggles I would recommend having a respawning Arabia with Egypt and Damascus, to represent the Ayyuibd Sultanate, and you could then have a Saladin type army ready to recapture the Holy Land, only to have a Richard the Lionheart GG spawn there as well. That would be pretty awesome :smug:

4. The Byzantines are still WAYY too powerful, in the sense that although I'm happy they gobble up Bulgaria now, the Seljuks really need to be increased. I understand if the Human Byzantium can withstand the Seljuk hordes, I really do not understand how the Byzantines are resisting these hordes and on top of that capturing even more cities. I would strongly recommending adding more Seljuk Barbarians, and barbarians in general to attack the Byzantines. Perhaps a few siege weapons as well? :mischief:
Anyway its a balancing game I understand that, so once you add many more barbs, you can increase it or decrease it accordingly.

5. Saw a Muslim Cherbourg :crazyeye:

6. Cordobans way to strong still. Although I can't think of a way to easily nerf them. I'm thinking, perhaps when the Cordobans are played as the AI, perhaps you can tack on instability hits against them, and just wait for them to collapse. And then allow them to respawn in Morocco with Granada and a couple Southern Spainish cities.

7. England needs to be a bit stronger, espeically when confronting the French, perhaps giving them more units? And as I said before the English should flip Cherbourg (although Rouen would be a better city for them to flip) and Rennes, in Bretagne. Currently Normandy seems to be too big, perhaps making it a smaller province woudl be better. Basically though the English should start off with Bretagne and one city in Normandy, Rouen/Caen.

8. When looking at the map I saw the city of "Bulgar", but Bulgar is not a city is a tribal group, I don't understand whats the point of having that city there?

By the way, I was happy to see that the Cordobans built Tlemcen! :)
I'm happy they've expanded their settler horizons now that you've added Oran to their settler maps :goodjob:



The Temple Mount is supposed to be the Old Synagogue in Krakow, representing the Polish tolerance to the Jews.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Synagogue_(Krak%C3%B3w)
Then you need to correctly label that, because currently its got the wrong description.

Responses:

Well why wouldn't it help them? And they don't need a "new UU", they can just have Musketmen, who when drafted are called "Janissaries". That would be the best UP for them IMO.


Well just let the Cordobans start with more Muslim Missionaries, and have them start off with being Muslim, rather than having them convert! And I'm just saying in general that quite a few independent cities, deserve to have a religion. Palermo, should have Catholicism, Judaism and Islam, and the same goes for Cordoba, where Judaism and Catholicism should spread to it. Just make the Cordoban AI resist converting to other religions.

Also as for the Vikings, I would have starting around 1000 AD have Catholicism spread automatically to some of their cities, or else they become Orthodox Christian :crazyeye:


Good! But what have you changed it to?


Well thats what happened historically, and historically Cordoba did not have much friends. And anyway in my last game I had open borders with the Burgundians, the Norse and the Germans, and don't think its that big of a deal. And anyway you said the Cordobans were a tad OP, so having the Cordobans and the Arabs on bad terms is good, and why do they need to declare war? Basically they should be first Furious with each other and then Annoyed, and then farther on, their tempers can be reset from that fateful day in 750 AD.


Ok, I'm sorry but who ever said that the Battle of Tours was "not significant" is an idiot. And I know I can still invade an "unstable" territory, but thats the thing, it makes you unstable! And the Cordoban AI will never want to take it! The Battle of Tours was VERY important, and those territories should DEFINITELY be added to their maps. In fact if I were you, I would add "Muslim Barbarians" who attack the Southern French cities. That would be great fun!
In that same way Sicily should ALSO be added to the Arab OK stability map, or else that would be ridiclous, plus seeing an Arab Sicily would be hella cool :D Especially if you have to fight a war to remove them from it. In the past I actually have seen the AI Arabs take it, and when I play as the Arabs I always make it a goal to capture Sicily


Surprisingly though, when I took Toulouse, the French never tried to take it back :confused: Shouldn't they be jumping at me to capture that territory, which should be considered "theirs". And by the way I captured it from the inde's.


Oh good! :)
But why not Anqutine and Provence? Can't you just make them "OK" provinces to attack/settle?
Also I hope you make the changes to the Cordoban settler maps for Toulouse and others. The website provided should make your life A LOT easier ;)




Ok I'm sorry, but thats just absurd, completely absurd. You need to AT LEAST have the the religion in that city to build it, if not have your state religion match it, or else thats just weird and plain not fun, when you have the Cordobans building everything. I mean how can the Sistine Chapel be built in Damascus?? PLEASE change each religious wonder to a specific religion, or else this is just crazy talk.

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Other Comments:

Also if you want, I was thinking that for the Austrian 3rd UHV you can rename it, instead of "Habsburg Alliances", "Holy Alliance" (a famous one between Prussia, Austria and Russia)

Another thing was that why not you remove the "beavers" who are totally out of place, and add in another graphic for "furs", I know Edead did that for SoI, and instead added in leopards which made more sense. You should consider making the change as well. Perhaps bears?

Also shoulden't Temple Mount be pre-placed in Jerusalem, since its ALREADY been built by this time? I mean your not making a mod about the Ancient Hebrews :lol:

Another problem is that Marco Polo's Embassy is being built WAYYYYYY too early, do you mind moving it up the tech tree :)
And Militarism so early on does not make sense in the European style. Having Vassalage early on is fine IMO. Can't you just change it back to later in the tech tree:sad:

And lastly, for the love of God, please change the "Masjid Al-Haram" which is situated in Mecca (not even on this map :crazyeye:), and just change its name to, "The Great Mosque of Damascus" OR "The Ummayad Mosque" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umayyad_Mosque)
And on that note, can you please change the Muslim holy city to Jerusalem, it just makes SOO much more sense, since Jerusalem is the third holiest city in Islam. Also if the Crusaders take it, it will make more sense for the Arabs to want to get it back.

Also I know your still working on civ names (at least I think you are), but why not you change the German Kingdom to "Holy Roman Empire", because frankly the HRE is not at all very well represented in this mod :(
Also on the note of name's for the "Arabic Knowledge" tech, it should instead be called, "Arab Knowledge". Also shouldn't it be moved back? At least on the same level as Gunpowder if not even a layer behind that. It just seems way too far in the tech tree.
And the Austrians shouldn't start with so many useless Archers, IMO just remove those 5 archers, and give them 2-3 crossbowmen.

When playing as Austria, I flipped Salzburg a German city and they declared war on me. Can you make it so that the Germans and Austrians are on very good terms with each other, because historically in the 13th century weren't they part of the SAME Empire even? So IMO they really should be best of friends

And VERY lastly, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE remove Joan of Arc as a French Leader and instead use the Clovis I LH that has been made, and I know you already have Charlemagne so you can rename the Clovis LH to another leader after Charlemagne, but its just TOO ridiculous that Joan of Arc is a leader of the entire French nation.

Okay, I don't want to start an argument anyway so I'll stay silent for now...

@Turk:

2. Do you want to edit the city name maps. I can send you a file with Arabia so that you can edit their map using the World Builder.

8. Bulgar should be Bolghar.

I'm happy they've expanded their settler horizons now that you've added Oran to their settler maps

Are you playing Beta 8 or a working version from the svn? Also, Stability maps have nothing to do with Settlers maps.

Can we please just turn the map of Europe into OK territory for the Muslim stability maps? This will pre-empt about 50% of the Turk's comments, perhaps leaving the other 50% to be valuable comments.

FakeShady, please stop quoting the Turk's idiotic rambles so I don't have to see him, I have him on ignore for a reason, but whenever quoted I see his moronic statements like "Sicily should ALSO be added to the Arab OK stability map" or "Jerusalem should be renamed Palestine because it is more authentic" or "But why not Anqutine and Provence? Can't you just make them "OK" provinces to attack/settle?"

For crying out loud... those regions weren't held, where they? Doesn't that show, potentially, that just maybe they WERE NOT STABLE AREAS for the "arabs"...

Basically, if a muslim ever stepped foot on an inch of ground in combat, Turk seems to think it should be "OK", never mind the culture of the original inhabitants (I mean, in history the muslims never did, so why should they in his mind today)... never mind that only through very DE-STABILIZING practices did the muslims rule anywhere in Europe for any period of time (stealing children to create the treasured "Janissaries" for example, the extreme discrimination non-muslims faced, etc, etc, etc). Hundreds of years later we are still dealing with the Ottoman invasion and destabilization of the Balkans... thanks a lot!?

Man... someone please stop this madness.
Rather stop the trolling first.

To stay on topic...
Do not add Sicily, or any other area held for less than 200 years, to anyone's stability map, arab/muslim/european/christian/whoever/whatever.

Sicily shouldn't be on anyone's stability map, in all reality...

FakeShady, please stop quoting the Turk's idiotic rambles so I don't have to see him, I have him on ignore for a reason,

I quoted it just for you ;) no but really, that was only half of it

Man... someone please stop this madness.
hey kochman, did you read that post where the Turk said he will appreciate if i stop the "petty comments"? :lol:

By the way, this post is not off-topic, cos Germany is still too powerful and needs to be nerfed.

EDIT: After much self reflection and thought, i have changed my mind. I would like to support the idea of renaming the area of "Jerusalem" to "Palestine" and suggest renaming of the area of "Poland" to "Lahestan". Its just more authentic like that.

Trolling is not allowed here.
If you can't contribute in a civil way, then don't post.

@Turk:

2. Do you want to edit the city name maps. I can send you a file with Arabia so that you can edit their map using the World Builder.

8. Bulgar should be Bolghar.

Are you playing Beta 8 or a working version from the svn? Also, Stability maps have nothing to do with Settlers maps.

Ya, sure if you want you can send it to me you can at the[dot]turkciv[at]gmail[dot]com
I'd love to help. I'll also fix the Bulgar mistake

Also I'm constantly updating the SVN, which amazingly you guys update ALL the time, which is really great! I love to see the work going into this mod.

Anyway, overall for the past day or two I've been posting up a lot of suggestions/ideas for this mod, take some of them, leave out some of them, I just hope some of them get realized :)

@Fakeshady
Stop replying to my comments, and wasting space on this thread. Thank You.

3. I never see the Arabs respawn correctly. Once they collapse, they should immediately respawn, but not in Damascus but in Egypt with a capital at Cairo. This way the Crusaders will have a tough time holding on to the Levant. For extra shits and giggles I would recommend having a respawning Arabia with Egypt and Damascus, to represent the Ayyuibd Sultanate, and you could then have a Saladin type army ready to recapture the Holy Land, only to have a Richard the Lionheart GG spawn there as well. That would be pretty awesome :smug:

It wouldn't be awesome if they respawn immediately. This makes Arabia "uncollapsable". They can't die this way. It wouldn't be fair.

It wouldn't be awesome if they respawn immediately. This makes Arabia "uncollapsable". They can't die this way. It wouldn't be fair.

Oh but its historical. And anything that happened in Middle Eastern history must or should be represented in this mod.

You see there were several caliphates, and everytime one collapses another shoulld respawn within 10 turns. Its just more historical like that. There was:

1. The Rashidun Caliphate. Under their rule people were given much religious freedom. From wikipedia: "the Caliphs lowered taxes, provided greater local autonomy (to their delegated governers), greater religious freedom for Jews, and some indigenous Christians, and brought peace to peoples demoralized and disaffected by the casualties and heavy taxation that resulted from the decades of Byzantine-Persian warfare.[7]"

I would like to suggest that the Arabs get +10 happiness in all cities as a result. Sounds historical to me.

2. The Umayyads Caliphate, based in Damascus. Arabia should respawn immendiately after its first collapse in Damascus.

3. Abbasids Caliphate, which cultivated great cultural and intellectual development during their reign. I therefore suggest that Arabs get +5 culture and +15 beakers per specialist during this period.

4. The Fatimid Caliphate, based in Cairo, or Al-Qahira.

All these caliphates existed and none of them should be left out. Right now in this game the middle eastern civs are extremely under-represented.

More comments coming up :cool:

@ Fakeshady

It isn't funny what you posted above. :nono: So please stop picking at the Turk. And if you can't hold it, please open a text file and post everything you want to say in that file, so we don't have to read all that non-related stuff.

It wouldn't be awesome if they respawn immediately. This makes Arabia "uncollapsable". They can't die this way. It wouldn't be fair.

LOL! Yes that would be unfair :p

No, what I meant by "immediately" (and sorry for the bad terminology used, English is my second language), was not 300 turns later. So basically what could happen is that you would have three potential respawn options for the Arabs, so it would be:

909 AD (Fatimids)
1171 AD (Ayyubid --- Saladin)
1250 (Mamluks)
So for example if the Arabs collapse in 1120 AD, they would respawn in 1171 AD as the Ayyubid Sultanate (with the name change)
That would be an easy way of doing it, or else you could have instead after 15-20 turns the Arabs respawn in Cairo (thats why Cairo NEEDS to spawn on the date I provided below), and have them want to move up against the Crusaders, or else as I have seen its smooth sailing for the Crusaders once they collapse the Arabs, which frankly should not happen, because as for those of you who have studied the Crusades, the Arabs (often disunited), were always annoyed by their presence in the Levant (but in this game they seem to go much farther than that). Also another Barbarian group which could attack the Cruaders especially, but as well as the Arabs would be the Zengids, who attacked time and time again, against the Crusaders, Nur ad-Din Zengi, among others fought many battles against the Crusaders and made their presence in the Levant a hard one. They would spawn in 1127-1128 (1128 they actually captured Aleppo and later Antioch).

Also talking about the Crusaders, have you guys ever thought about having a "Kingdom of Jerusalem" civilization? Basically you would have all the countries give some troops, but instead of electing a leader, all those units would spawn as Kingdom of Jerusalem (non-playable) soldiers, who would then try to capture Jerusalem and its environs. IMO it would look more historically correct, and you'd be able to control the KoJ faction better, since it is non-playable. You could even have an event which they either call on their own or once one of their cities fall, they can call for reinforcements another crusade in general. I don't know, its up for you guys to decide on that.


And finally, one city above Tyre but underneath Antioch would be useful, especially for the Crusaders to capture, since the Levant in general looks a tad bare.

There is something in the code which gives civs have a bigger chance to respawn. We can give the Arabs a bigger chance to respawn at those dates. But it should only be a bigger chance, not a certain thing, otherwise it would be too deterministic.

I think we realy should stop adding more civs. BTW, the Kingdom of Jerusalem will make the whole crusader feature useless and the Arabs won't be able to cope with the massive stability hit they would suffer.
EDIT: I didn't read you post carefully. But you won't be able to control Jerusalem with that idea. (And controlling Jerusalem is one of the nice things of the Crusaders)

There is something in the code which gives civs have a bigger chance to respawn. We can give the Arabs a bigger chance to respawn at those dates. But it should only be a bigger chance, not a certain thing, otherwise it would be too deterministic.

I think we realy should stop adding more civs. BTW, the Kingdom of Jerusalem will make the whole crusader feature useless and the Arabs won't be able to cope with the massive stability hit they would suffer.
EDIT: I didn't read you post carefully. But you won't be able to control Jerusalem with that idea. (And controlling Jerusalem is one of the nice things of the Crusaders)

I am working on the respawn code now. More features would be added including such things as Mamluks. The current code seems to have some bugs in it.

There is no point in adding a small Crusader Kingdom, control of Jerusalem is a goal for the Catholics major players, "kingdom" is a loose term anyway, with rulers, vassals, political marriages and so on.

Respawning Arabia is ok but I really dont like that they steal away Alexandria from the Byzantines even if they are stable, just that city should be removed from respawning area!

@ Fakeshady

It isn't funny what you posted above. :nono:

i wasnt trying to be funny :confused: i just feel that the middle eastern civs right now are very badly represented and way too weak. Especially the Seljuks and the Ottomans. For example, why is the Masjid al-Haram in Damascus? Why isnt Jerusalem, the third holiest city in Islam, the holy city of Islam in the game? Besides, that area is called Palestine, is it not? Why arent the countless respawns of the Arabian Caliphates more accurately represented?

Why isnt Siciliy in Arab's "ok" zone? From wikipedia "During the seventh and eight centuries, Sicily had been raided from Ifriqiya. The eventual Arab-Muslim conquest of Byzantine Sicily was piecemeal and slow".

These changes are definitely do-able

Stop the trolling.

Why are repeated, offensive, outrageous remarks from the Turk ok, but from others not?
Public discussion of moderator actions is not allowed in this forum.
If you have a problem with an action, then PM me or one of the supermoderators.

And if you see a problematic post, then report it, don't respond to it.

The_J

I think this thread alone has seen the most moderator action without it bieng closed... :p

Back to the topic at hand, I do have to agree though that it would be nice to see the Arabs respawn more to represent the different Caliphates.

Played a game as Spain earlier and got to lead a crusade, captured Jerusalem and the Arabs collapsed. When they did, I noticed that a city just north of Jerusalem flipped to me, and I never owned the city before in this game. Also noticed Cordoba can get really powerful, but doesn't like to use it's armies for offensive reasons. Ex: Bought a Crusade on Cordoba(City) and bombarded the city, and they had many units that could've beaten my small Crusader Army up, but chose to wait and die(they had many units leave the city and many workers enter it). At first I thought it might of been AI incompetance, but the I wondered, "Even the AI would have at least kept units inside of the city..." What could've made them do that, other than Portugal's spawn a couple of turns before there is nothing that would have prompted that. Even so I think the AI would at least defend a Capital rather than invade a new country...

Because we can stay cool and point out on which arguments we disagree. It seems that on several topics some of you can't. For example: I disagree on the statement that Sicily and Southern France should be OK. Some of you check who posted it, go on bizarre mode and then start typing furiously, which leads to a mix of hilarious and distasteful posting. Others, like me for example, give arguments why we disagree. Then the OP can reply again. There is no possibility to reply to a troll post. And remember the number one rule on the internet: fighting on the internet is cool to see, but unlike wrestling, the fighter himself is a weak person.

Too be fair, The Turk isn't half the prick, hell, not even a tenth the prick i thought him to be. He just thinks that RFC is a half-as*ed historical simulation, full of errors to be corrected. I think (and i have no idea what you folks think) that Rhye never wanted it to be a playable Wikipedia article. That's why he introduced stability. Otherwise, he would have coded a roman auto-collapse in 450 AD -bam-. That's like a gazillion times easier to code. And you wouldn't have those nasty loading times inbetween turns.
I talked once in a while about RFCE and it felt like backbiting if i wouldn't say it right to you. Well, i don't really like your mod. Not that it's not fun, it's just not fun for long. I had fun with it 2 years ago. Then i tried it a year ago, deleting it again pretty quickly. And last weeks, i gave it a try (noticed that Abu Bakr looks like a drag queen), played a few turns as Cordobans and saw that nothing really have changed. Than i checked the provinces (that hovering over a tile and pressing ctrl to see the whole province is still a cool thing :hatsoff:) and saw that Augsburg isn't even part of Swabia. It has always been one of the most important swabian cities and isn't in Bavaria in the modmod's timeframe. That was the final :twitch: and i deleted it.
But who am i to critize RFCE? I don't call myself important enough to demand radical changes. You can live with a few people out there who don't play it. It makes a lot of people happy, so you really don't need to consider my opinion. Don't take it bad :please:
Keep up the work anyways:goodjob:

Ya, sure if you want you can send it to me you can at the[dot]turkciv[at]gmail[dot]com
I'd love to help. I'll also fix the Bulgar mistake


Check the Civ Names thread.

This holds for anyone interested in helping with the city names.

There is something in the code which gives civs have a bigger chance to respawn. We can give the Arabs a bigger chance to respawn at those dates. But it should only be a bigger chance, not a certain thing, otherwise it would be too deterministic.

oh this could be really cool. Like 0% probability for byzantine and like 90% for Cordoba (not sure if its overall or per turn), but I support the ideas of people that when cordoba respawns it plays a sort of Algerian/Moroccan (Portugal and them would fight over morocco) pirate type civ.

I was wondering if its possible to make all the cities in North Africa Muslim instead of Catholic and Orthodox. ( maybe the cities can switch religion or spawn later with Islam). Because it looks wrong to see a Muslim Cordoba with all the territories inbetween Spain And Arabia being Christian. All those cities should have Islam or spawn later with Islam. (if its easy and worth the effort ofcourse). And really many of these cities should spawn after the the spawn of Arabia.

I was wondering if its possible to make all the cities in North Africa Muslim instead of Catholic and Orthodox. ( maybe the cities can switch religion or spawn later with Islam). Because it looks wrong to see a Muslim Cordoba with all the territories inbetween Spain And Arabia being Christian. All those cities should have Islam or spawn later with Islam. (if its easy and worth the effort ofcourse). And really many of these cities should spawn after the the spawn of Arabia.

This is one of the most debated threads, i have seen yet. (people are going at each other :mischief:

Improving the spread of Islam in NA is on top of my TODO list.

Thanks and just another question
Once islam spreads do other religions leave or stay

Thanks and just another question
Once islam spreads do other religions leave or stay

Well, although that does sound like a good suggestion, there remained Christian (and Jewish) pockets in N Africa for a long time.
But perhaps a good idea would be to slowly remove Christianity from N Africa. So lets 50-100 turns after Islam spreads to that city, Christianity leaves, or you can have a set date, that would be pretty cool.
The same could be implemented for Spain, so that Islam leaves many Spanish cities, until it is just in the deep South of the country

Why not spawn free religious persecutors for North African Muslim Civs?

Thanks and just another question
Once islam spreads do other religions leave or stay

Islam is added, none of the already existing religions would be removed.

Civilizations use Prosecutors to get rid of foreign religion, Spain surely does a good job, North African Muslim Empires can do that too.

I like the new changes you made on the SVN, those look good; but why the Hafsid Dynasty? Why not respawn the Cordobans as the Almohad (Almoravids are too early, and the Cordobans are still there by then) or the Marinid Dynasty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marinid_dynasty)?
The Marinid's would have been a better choice overall as they also spawn in the 13th century, in 1215 AD. And they controlled Southern Spain all of Morocco and Algeria as well. And since they are closer to the original Cordobans, doesn't it make more sense to include them?


PS> I love playing as the Norse, but I can't seem to finish their UHV! Is anybody having a tough time reaching the Crimea AND conquering Normandy as well? Seems a bit of a stretch IMO. By the way I'm playing on Monarch.

PS> I love playing as the Norse, but I can't seem to finish their UHV! Is anybody having a tough time reaching the Crimea AND conquering Normandy as well? Seems a bit of a stretch IMO. By the way I'm playing on Monarch.
Yea, it is a very rapid expansion that is needed which makes stability the main obstacle. It would be perfectly doable (and not that historically incorrect) if it was "merely" a settling requirement akin to the RFC England/Portugal UHV's where you can technically gift/liberate cities after founding, but I think the Norse actually have to possess the cities in question on the UHV date.

I like the new changes you made on the SVN, those look good; but why the Hafsid Dynasty? Why not respawn the Cordobans as the Almohad (Almoravids are too early, and the Cordobans are still there by then) or the Marinid Dynasty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marinid_dynasty)?
The Marinid's would have been a better choice overall as they also spawn in the 13th century, in 1215 AD. And they controlled Southern Spain all of Morocco and Algeria as well. And since they are closer to the original Cordobans, doesn't it make more sense to include them?


PS> I love playing as the Norse, but I can't seem to finish their UHV! Is anybody having a tough time reaching the Crimea AND conquering Normandy as well? Seems a bit of a stretch IMO. By the way I'm playing on Monarch.

Cordoba represents the sum total of all the Muslims in Iberia (like Germany represents a bunch of separate kingdoms/dynasties). Cordoba is the Caliphate of Cordoba, the Almohad Dynasty and the Marinid dynasty and so on.

Once Spain or Portugal collapses Cordoba (which usually happens in 12xx), then the other North Africa Muslims raise leaving Iberia to the Spanish and Portuguese.

By the way, this post is not off-topic, cos Germany is still too powerful and needs to be nerfed.

EDIT: After much self reflection and thought, i have changed my mind. I would like to support the idea of renaming the area of "Jerusalem" to "Palestine" and suggest renaming of the area of "Poland" to "Lahestan". Its just more authentic like that.



Im sorry, but whats wrong with this post??

i wasnt trying to be funny :confused: i just feel that the middle eastern civs right now are very badly represented and way too weak. Especially the Seljuks and the Ottomans. For example, why is the Masjid al-Haram in Damascus? Why isnt Jerusalem, the third holiest city in Islam, the holy city of Islam in the game? Besides, that area is called Palestine, is it not? Why arent the countless respawns of the Arabian Caliphates more accurately represented?

Why isnt Siciliy in Arab's "ok" zone? From wikipedia "During the seventh and eight centuries, Sicily had been raided from Ifriqiya. The eventual Arab-Muslim conquest of Byzantine Sicily was piecemeal and slow".

These changes are definitely do-able



And whats wrong with this post? Seriously The_J i dont like to accuse anyone of favouritism but i dont think you leave me with much choice. I wasnt being sarcastic, and i even quoted from wikipedia historical sources to back me up, so how dare you say my posts lack content? Im sorry if my suggestions happen to coincide with what The Turk earlier suggested, i was simply agreeing with his point after much thought and backing it up with reliable historical sources. I know im not supposed to discuss moderator actions on forums, but i want a clear answer. Whats wrong with the above posts? WHATS WRONG WITH THE ABOVE POSTS? You may delete this post after you've sent me a pm, but i want you to give me an answer.

Every kind of public discussion of moderator actions is not allowed in this forum. If you have a problem with an action, then YOU have to send ME a PM, not vice versa.

Cordoba represents the sum total of all the Muslims in Iberia (like Germany represents a bunch of separate kingdoms/dynasties). Cordoba is the Caliphate of Cordoba, the Almohad Dynasty and the Marinid dynasty and so on.

Once Spain or Portugal collapses Cordoba (which usually happens in 12xx), then the other North Africa Muslims raise leaving Iberia to the Spanish and Portuguese.

Oh ok, fair enough I guess. But then, don't you think it would be cool to see a last Muslim stronghold in Spain, like Granada (which IMO should always be present), in the game? But anyway I guess they really did collapse by then, and you can have the Muslim Taifa states which eventually get gobbaled up anyway :rolleyes:
But what function will the Hasfid's do other than keep North Africa preoccupied? IMO I think a Moroccan civilization would be more relevant for this game, whether they come with control of Southern Spain or not.

By the way, have any of you ever seen European expansion into North Africa? For example French attacks against Algeria or Morocco for example?


@FakeShady
Don't argue against moderator action, and please don't waste this thread's space, send a PM if you want, but your pointless comments are what are getting you those red cards. Notice the spoiler I'm using ;)
Next time just report the post, and don't answer to it. And please stay polite!
Thanks on behalf of everyone!

2 small observations from my Portugal game:

- The two India Companies have very unequal costs... Is it intended?

- They seem to count as colonies for the UHVs that require a number of them. I think it wasn't the case some versions ago, and it should be changed back.

Also, if I had to request one thing for the mod, it would be to change Lithuania's color to dark green. There are not enough green civs, and they're usually gone in the late game. And Lithuania's grey is boring. Also, in some previous version the Polish leaders had cool baroque musique, at least much better than what we have now... Why was it changed?

Anyway, those are just small pet peeves of mine ;)

2 small observations from my Portugal game:
- The two India Companies have very unequal costs... Is it intended?


This is a bug in the Portuguese UP, it covers one Trading Company but not the other. Also, trading companies should not count as colonies. Thanks for noting that.

Ya, some of the music is a bit weird :blush:

Anyway, when playing as the Norse I captured Edinburgh, but instead of capturing the city I automatically razed it -______-" forcing me to have to send a settler all the way to settle Scotland. In the future can you make sure that the Human player ALWAYS get a choice between razing and keeping a city?

Ya, some of the music is a bit weird :blush:

Anyway, when playing as the Norse I captured Edinburgh, but instead of capturing the city I automatically razed it -______-" forcing me to have to send a settler all the way to settle Scotland. In the future can you make sure that the Human player ALWAYS get a choice between razing and keeping a city?

Edinburgh probably had size 1. If a city is size 1, it will automatically get razed. If it is bigger, you can choose to raze it or keep it. (You just have to wait until the city grows)

(In a vanilla game, you can use the option "no city razing", but this doesn't work for RFC and RFCE)

I am not sure how city razing works in the code, especially the autoraze part. I will have to look at it to see if it can be improved.

Ya please look into this! :D

Also, can someone PLEASE tell me how the Norse are supposed to settle the Crimea that fast?

Ya please look into this! :D

Also, can someone PLEASE tell me how the Norse are supposed to settle the Crimea that fast?

Go to Lithuania and then use the roads around the Russian rivers to travel down to Kiev and then Crimea.

Sacrifise your one of your settlers to not settle in their core area, but on Crimea.

@The Turk
Oh, so basically you can just tell me anything off-topic you want, in spoilers and you can get away with it? No, that's not allowed. Ahh i see, i get it now. Very well, i shall reply to you using spoilers then. And in any case, i was making legitimate suggestions. You sir, do not tell me what to do.

Also I've been having another problem (yes I'm walking down to the Crimea :rolleyes: ), but my weirder problem is that I captured Jorvik (Nottingham, I think it was), but at -2 or -3 stability it immediately declared independence. And when I recaptured it, and my stability dropped once more, AGAIN it declared independence! Can you check up on that, please. Thanks :)

Also I've been having another problem (yes I'm walking down to the Crimea :rolleyes: ), but my weirder problem is that I captured Jorvik (Nottingham, I think it was), but at -2 or -3 stability it immediately declared independence. And when I recaptured it, and my stability dropped once more, AGAIN it declared independence! Can you check up on that, please. Thanks :)

Post a safegame form right before the first and perhaps the second capture.

Post a safegame form right before the first and perhaps the second capture.

I quit the games -_____-"

@The Turk
Oh, so basically you can just tell me anything off-topic you want, in spoilers and you can get away with it?
Basically, you are correct...
No, he isn't.

I quite the games -_____-"

Without a savegame that I can use to follow step-by-step everything that is happening in the code I cannot do anything.

EVERYONE: if you want to help, keep your savegames.

Also I've been having another problem (yes I'm walking down to the Crimea :rolleyes: ), but my weirder problem is that I captured Jorvik (Nottingham, I think it was), but at -2 or -3 stability it immediately declared independence. And when I recaptured it, and my stability dropped once more, AGAIN it declared independence! Can you check up on that, please. Thanks :)

When playing the Norse your first and most important job is keep your stability above 0. Otherwise your cities start to declare independence. Until your have a descent sized empire. I have tried even tonsberg declare independence.

I have managed to have stable empire controlling denmark, norway, sweden, england, scotland and ireland. So it is possible.

When playing the Norse your first and most important job is keep your stability above 0. Otherwise your cities start to declare independence. Until your have a descent sized empire. I have tried even tonsberg declare independence.

I have managed to have stable empire controlling denmark, norway, sweden, england, scotland and ireland. So it is possible.

YA! Thats what happened to me as well! You just dip a bit under and instantly some of your cities declare independence! Was that expected? Because I've played other games where you really need to get into the -10 to -20's for your cities to start declaring independence.

@3Miro
I don't think you'll even need to have a savegame, just try it out yourself, as something fishy is going on ;)

@3Miro
I don't think you'll even need to have a savegame, just try it out yourself, as something fishy is going on ;)

For the past three months, I have played no more than 3 full games ;) This is the price I have to pay for doing the mod, when you spend so much time coding, you code and test, but never play.

Next time I get a chance to play, I will try out the Norse.

The sacrifices we make for our one true love, eh Miro? :D

Norse are doable, but it is a very single minded endeavour with first build always being manors and getting to courthouses as fast as possible.
It is a very aggressive expansion that is needed, and the new system penalises that sort of land grab quite severely.
There is no easy fix that I can think of, at least not without making the AI godlike, only one that comes to mind is pushing UHV outwards by a number of years to allow for a smoother expansion.
@Allan: The initial cities are easy peasy, now add Iceland, Sicily and Crimea before UHV expires .. that is where the problem lies.

PS: Three extra galleys are truly divine intervention, but excessive. Two or even just one would suffice I think. There is a lot of ferrying going on so throwing a boat into the unknown once in a while is not a huge hit .. if only that delicious Trading Post was a little faster to build :D

By the way, how long is the revolt grace period after a civ spawns? I have been dabbling with Portuguese and have no problems going -10 or lower for an extended period in the opening phase .. seen the same behaviour playing the English.

I think the bigger problem lays with grabbing the Crimea, getting Ireland isn't' that bad. In fact I'm usually able to grab the British Isles pretty fast, its just Sicily and attacking France can take a while.

Also I would review you're spreading of Islam. Have Islam spread in Anatolia (to Byzantine cities) when the Seljuks invade. The Seljuk invasion needs to be bigger, they should hollow out the interior of Anatolia.

Also shouldn't North African cities have Orthodox christianity? Or were they Catholic (ie. In Communion with the Pope?)

Also the Bulgarians should be Orthodox Christian, perhaps having a scripted spread of Orthodox Christianity to their cities would be a good idea.

Also any ideas for having a unique background and title for this mod? It would really add to the flavour of the mod :)

I think the bigger problem lays with grabbing the Crimea, getting Ireland isn't' that bad. In fact I'm usually able to grab the British Isles pretty fast, its just Sicily and attacking France can take a while.

Also I would review you're spreading of Islam. Have Islam spread in Anatolia (to Byzantine cities) when the Seljuks invade. The Seljuk invasion needs to be bigger, they should hollow out the interior of Anatolia.

Also shouldn't North African cities have Orthodox christianity? Or were they Catholic (ie. In Communion with the Pope?)

Also the Bulgarians should be Orthodox Christian, perhaps having a scripted spread of Orthodox Christianity to their cities would be a good idea.

Also any ideas for having a unique background and title for this mod? It would really add to the flavour of the mod :)

- Stability for the Norse has been improved since Beta 8.
- The Seljuk invasion currently consists of 5 units every turn. The problem is that the Byz are strong enough to withstand and even if they lose a city, they have plenty of time to Prosecute.
- North Africa was conquered by the Arabs while there was still not a good distinction between Orthodox and Catholic.
- What do you mean by Unique Background, we do have unique loading screen and we do have a good name.

Also I would review you're spreading of Islam. Have Islam spread in Anatolia (to Byzantine cities) when the Seljuks invade. The Seljuk invasion needs to be bigger, they should hollow out the interior of Anatolia.



Agreed. We have know the Battle of Manzikert was such an easy battle for the Seljuks, the Byzantines had no chance at all. In fact, i suggest a feature that makes Byzantium lose all their cities in Anatolia instantly once the Seljuks appear.
Here's the historical proof, quoted from wikipedia:
"During this time, the Sultan allowed Romanos to eat at his table whilst concessions were agreed upon; Antioch, Edessa, Hierapolis and Manzikert were to be surrendered.[8] This would have left the vital core of Anatolia untouched"

Anatolia, all the way to Antioch, should be instantly surrendered to the Seljuks. This will make a more historical game

- Stability for the Norse has been improved since Beta 8.
- The Seljuk invasion currently consists of 5 units every turn. The problem is that the Byz are strong enough to withstand and even if they lose a city, they have plenty of time to Prosecute.
- North Africa was conquered by the Arabs while there was still not a good distinction between Orthodox and Catholic.
- What do you mean by Unique Background, we do have unique loading screen and we do have a good name.

- The Seljuk invasion probably needs to be strengthened. Its fine for the Byzantine AI to recapture those cities, but not that fast nor that easily. Perhaps 7 Seljuks per turn? And perhaps more diversified units as well for them?
- Ah... Good point, I would recommend though having them all Orthodox Christian, due to the fact that current Christian communities in these places are more related to Eastern Orthodox Christianity rather than to Catholicism. So thats my opinion, if someone has "historical" references to this, please share them, but overall it makes more sense if they are Orthodox Christian (up to Spain)
- Unique Background as in, the title page. For example SoI and RFC Asia (is that mod still in progress :confused: ), all have their own unique title backgrounds and font title (heading), it would be cool if you could have a European thematic one.

Eastern North Africa is mostly Orthodox,(Coptic) while Western North Africa has Catholic communities, though they are mostly foreign and only there after quite some time. Overall, they should all end up Muslim in the end.

Eastern North Africa is mostly Orthodox,(Coptic) while Western North Africa has Catholic communities, though they are mostly foreign and only there after quite some time. Overall, they should all end up Muslim in the end.

Yeah that would be correct! Im sure that there are/were some christian communities in North Africa but they are too small to represent (the only exception is the orthodox presence in Alexandria). Its just like the Byzantine, they probably had a small muslim community before the seljuks but it is too small to represent

Western North Africa was Catholic and Eastern North Africa was Orthodox

*In nearly all my games Sicily is never colonized , not even by the Byzantines ,Venetians, and Genoans. Perhaps a Kingdom of Sicily? Would also solve the empty North Africa
*Scotland feels underrepresented, shouldn't it be it's own country/ I don't know if there's enough space for it but it should be parallel to England
*The Ottomans almost always convert to Orthodoxy when they spawn. It might be necessary to give them the same power as the Arabs.
*I think paganism(put norse and Lithuanian together) should be it's own religion with temples and wonders rather than a "no state religion' affair. It would be rather neat to remain pagan in the face of adversity.
*Something seems to be wrong with the last UHV for Cordoba. I had every single inch of Spain coverted to Islam and I failed the last part.
*The Byzantine UHV bugged(one time apparently) where I was rewarded for having the highest culture in 1000 in the year 700 or so, and I failed the last two UHV's by 848.
*It might not be geographically accurate, but Iceland should be moved southeast and given more land. The southeast portion of Iceland is virtually uninhabitable even today, it was the west of Iceland that was fertile and full of fish. It would be mostly treeless plains with fish resources and atleast 2 whale. Iceland does not naturally have trees.
*I know this will never happen, but Byzantines should be Romans. They also seem to be unable to settle stable in areas historically owned by them at the start (Northwest Africa, Sicily, Southern Italy, Rhodes, Crete, Cyprus, Crimera). Thankfully the Imperialism civic is awesome.
*Occupation seems to have the opposite effect, my stability went down by 3 every time I attacked a settlement, whereas it stayed the same with Imperialism.
*Viking UHV is apparently bugged, even at 1 stability Dublin goes independent every other turn, even if I worldbuilder it to me.
*Byzantines should start with Divine Monarchy and over civics enabled at start(think Egypt in the original) this is more useful than the current UHV, imo.
*While playing as Cordoba, every time Spain, Portugal, France or whatever wanted to be independent I could bribe them to not steal my cities. If I do the same with Byzanitum, it bugs out and the cities get stolen anyway.

*Byzantines should start with Divine Monarchy and over civics enabled at start(think Egypt in the original) this is more useful than the current UHV, imo.
*While playing as Cordoba, every time Spain, Portugal, France or whatever wanted to be independent I could bribe them to not steal my cities. If I do the same with Byzanitum, it bugs out and the cities get stolen anyway.

Not gonna happen in a million years

Don't strengthen the seljuk invasion, 5 units/turn are more than enough
First we should run a few test games after I uploaded the map changes to Anatolia
Also, we can still move the seljuk's spawn position a few tiles west if they are going against the levant instead of east anatolia (which I experienced in some of my games)

But I agree with FakeShady too, we shouldn't go overboard with this. If the byzantine AI lose 2-3 cities to the seljuks I think it's enough

*Something seems to be wrong with the last UHV for Cordoba. I had every single inch of Spain coverted to Islam and I failed the last part.
*The Byzantine UHV bugged(one time apparently) where I was rewarded for having the highest culture in 1000 in the year 700 or so, and I failed the last two UHV's by 848.


Do you have a savegame from right bore this happens.

But I agree with FakeShady too, we shouldn't go overboard with this. If the byzantine AI lose 2-3 cities to the seljuks I think it's enough

Excuse me? When did i say that? I said, Byzantium should lose ALL their cities in Anatolia. They shouldnt even have A CHANCE to keep any of them. In fact, to be more historically accurate, i even suggested that those cities be unconditionally surrendered to the Seljuks once the Seljuks appear.

To ensure historical accuracy, because its SO important, i would also like to suggest that everytime the Bulgarians lose a unit to Byzantium, a "blind unit" will appear in Bulgaria. These "blind units" cannot do battle or do anything, but they will consume 1 food. Essentially they will become a liability to the Bulgarians, but that was the idea after all, to represent the blinding of the Bulgarians done by the Byzantines. It might not sound like a great idea, but hey, its just more historical like that. Stop the trolling.

As of now Seljuks are way too weak, and Byzantium is way too strong. Ottoman has far too little units upon spawn. At the current rate there is no way the Ottoman AI can capture Vienna by the time stated. I suggest the Ottoman UP to be changed to

"Power of Janissaries: +10 Jannisaries for every city captured"

This can replace the needless drafting ability, which is wayyy too useless

Excuse me? When did i say that? I said, Byzantium should lose ALL their cities in Anatolia. They shouldnt even have A CHANCE to keep any of them. In fact, to be more historically accurate, i even suggested that those cities be unconditionally surrendered to the Seljuks once the Seljuks appear.

I don't care what you said, everyone knows how did you mean it
But you should stop this, I'm really patient but it starts to annoy me too
If you want to suggest something, tell us in a normal way.
Both 3Miro and I will consider it if it's constructive

The_J, this is a fun thread for you, right? :D

Re-tried RFCE for the first time in a long time with the latest version. Played as Spain, went for the UHV. First one was completed well before the deadline. The second one (have the most colonies) was completed a few turns before the deadline, with a whopping 1 colony. By the time I quit in 1588 the only colony completed by the AI was the Aztec conquest. For the third (conquer 3 cities from a protestant nation), I declared on France (who had recently become protestant) and took 4 of their cities, all of which had protestantism present in them. I then just had to wait 18 turns or so to find out that I had failed the 3rd UHV.

I don't know if the UHV's are still broken or if you define the 3rd goal differently then I did, but this may or may not be helpful to you guys.

Re-tried RFCE for the first time in a long time with the latest version. Played as Spain, went for the UHV. First one was completed well before the deadline. The second one (have the most colonies) was completed a few turns before the deadline, with a whopping 1 colony. By the time I quit in 1588 the only colony completed by the AI was the Aztec conquest. For the third (conquer 3 cities from a protestant nation), I declared on France (who had recently become protestant) and took 4 of their cities, all of which had protestantism present in them. I then just had to wait 18 turns or so to find out that I had failed the 3rd UHV.

I don't know if the UHV's are still broken or if you define the 3rd goal differently then I did, but this may or may not be helpful to you guys.

Spanish 3d UHV had a bug. Thanks for reporting it.

Do you have a savegame from right bore this happens.I'll play through another Byzantine game and see if I can reproduce the bug, as for Cordoba I do have a savegame, how do I upload it?

I'll play through another Byzantine game and see if I can reproduce the bug, as for Cordoba I do have a savegame, how do I upload it?

Post a reply to the thread and below the space for writing and all the funny faces, there a "manage attachments" part. You can use that to upload your savegame as an attachment.

Bug: I founded Protestantism as the Dutch (which should be kinda weird itself), but I did it with a missionary. So, there was no holy city of Protestantism. As a result, nobody converted to Protestantism.

Oh by the way,
If someone wants to see a REALLY powerful Byzantium, it even controls Kiev, he should take a look too.
And it's very nice to have Nijmegen under my control.:lol:

EDIT: Apparently civfanatics won't let me upload the file. I'll see if I can find another way to post it.

Anyone know how to survive the plague during a very active war? I always lose all my units in cities and lose because of the plague.

Anyone know how to survive the plague during a very active war? I always lose all my units in cities and lose because of the plague.

Without cheating, the only way to save your units is moving them more than 3 tiles away from the city that is hit by the plague.

that doesn't help me when I'm under assault in the middle of a war. I understand plague is historically accurate, but it sucks for gameplay.

If someone is attacking one of your cities and has a stack nearby, plague will affect his units too
So I don't consider this such a huge problem gameplay-wise

It does when he has a bunch of knights 3 squares away that happen to see that my border city just lost all my units too the plague. Yeah that happens way too much.

Has anyone noticed that the province of Malta covers exactly one tile? I recommend merging Malta with Sicily since Malta was part of the Kingdom of Sicily 1127-1798

I agree with the plague talk here. It's often very weird for the gameplay. It starts in some random place, lets say portugal. Over about 5 turns it spreads all over Europe. Your cities lose ~5 population and you might lose some units if you don't move them well (easily avoided in my opinion).

Overall it seems to do little to stunt the growth of armies but can be a good deterrent to large cities like an 18 population venezia. The problem I have is that it takes about 10 turns to do its deal (many less than previous versions), which is generally about 30 years. Didnt the plague take place over about 3 years or so? thats about 1 turn.

So if this would be possible (probably not, its likely one of those oh rhye did some intense programming magic that no one else can decipher), why not have it be so that when a city gets it, all cities within like a 15 tile radius will get plague and only for say 2 turns. If the plague starts in say iceland and no plague spreads then it will automatically spread to the closest city (to ensure it actually does something).

It could be that cities lose 20% of population (rounded down) per turn (for two turns). So a hugely urban city say a 21 population Paris would lose 4 population then another 3, droppings its population to 14 (exactly 33% which was the approximate population loss in european countries).

Cities under 5 population wouldn't lose population (the 20% rule and to prevent new cities from simply being driven into the ground).

Perhaps all ground units with 2 tiles of the city have a 80% chance to live per turn, so on average 64% survive (again about the 1/3 lost in the great plague).

Perhaps recently established civs could be exempt, say a new civ (within 10 turns) can't receive plague or start the plague (i doubt this will cause the plague from spreading, if it did then it would defer to the "closest" rule outlined earlier).

I agree with the plague talk here. It's often very weird for the gameplay. It starts in some random place, lets say portugal. Over about 5 turns it spreads all over Europe. Your cities lose ~5 population and you might lose some units if you don't move them well (easily avoided in my opinion).

Overall it seems to do little to stunt the growth of armies but can be a good deterrent to large cities like an 18 population venezia. The problem I have is that it takes about 10 turns to do its deal (many less than previous versions), which is generally about 30 years. Didnt the plague take place over about 3 years or so? thats about 1 turn.

So if this would be possible (probably not, its likely one of those oh rhye did some intense programming magic that no one else can decipher), why not have it be so that when a city gets it, all cities within like a 15 tile radius will get plague and only for say 2 turns. If the plague starts in say iceland and no plague spreads then it will automatically spread to the closest city (to ensure it actually does something).

It could be that cities lose 20% of population (rounded down) per turn (for two turns). So a hugely urban city say a 21 population Paris would lose 4 population then another 3, droppings its population to 14 (exactly 33% which was the approximate population loss in european countries).

Cities under 5 population wouldn't lose population (the 20% rule and to prevent new cities from simply being driven into the ground).

Perhaps all ground units with 2 tiles of the city have a 80% chance to live per turn, so on average 64% survive (again about the 1/3 lost in the great plague).

Perhaps recently established civs could be exempt, say a new civ (within 10 turns) can't receive plague or start the plague (i doubt this will cause the plague from spreading, if it did then it would defer to the "closest" rule outlined earlier).

I disagree here. I like the mechanics, but the effects on units are a little harsh. Just a minor comment, but nothing major should reall be changed.

I agree that the plague is too long. At first it does bring some excitement, but after a few turns, when all your cities are infected, it's just about waiting for it to go away, because you can't really build/conquer/do anything during it. Even without any considerations for its harshness, plague is a bit boring.

I haven't played the most recent version...
Before my problem with the plague is it would kill pretty much every unit and reduce most cities to a 1 population...
Does this still occur? Or has it been toned down?

Would it be possibly to write a civ unique start pop-up? In this way you could give some outlines for the challenges that awaits that civ to new players.

Would it be possibly to write a civ unique start pop-up? In this way you could give some outlines for the challenges that awaits that civ to new players.

Code would be easy, getting someone to write the text for each civ would be hard.

Yeah, true. I was thinking something about the lines of civ 5, a rather pompous loading screen. But that might too much.

The cities-razed-counter doesn't reset, when you start a second Norse game.
I'd like to post a screen, but it doesn't work... :(
Edit: And it counts Lübecks razing.

Playin Beta 9 and have found an error that was corrected but overcorrected. The Pope now calls way more defensive crusades than crusades for Jerusalem. Im in 1289 and there have been no crusades for the holy land, it is currently controlled by arabs.

I just played Beta 10 and let me say that on spawning as the Turks, the map looked BEAUTIFUL!!!! :D GREAT JOB GUYS!!
My ONLY complaint about the balance of power is that the Venetians were stuck with only two cities, the Bulgarians were WAYYY OP. I'm fine with them surviving until the late game but they should not control the entire Adriatic coast, suffocating the nominally more powerful Venetians.

Also what happened to moving the Turkish spawn to Adrianople instead of Bursa? And please remove the two Turkish settlers, they REALLY don't need it, and I think it just leads the AI Turks to placing bad cities that are frankly not needed at all.

I'm happy Islam spread to many Byzantine cities, but frankly, there should be a barbarian presence in the center of Anatolia, as Muslims didn't just walk into Byzantine cities like that. I would strongly encourage you to find a way to fix that.

Oh and the English need to be stronger in France (GET RID OF AN ENGLISH CALAIS!! Please replace it with Rouen)
And the Arabs were a tad OP in 1358, they perhaps should have more Barb pressure from the Mongols and Timurds as well entering into Syria, and then have them respawn as a weaker version in Egypt.
Also I saw a Muslim Lithuania :crazyeye: How is the Livonian crusade going to be represented? It would be cool if you could see spawning Ritturbuter Knights who convert the Lithuanians to Christianity.

Thats all for now, I'll post more comments later as needed ;)
But really, great job guys, RFC Europe looks like its back on track :goodjob:

I just played Beta 10 and let me say that on spawning as the Turks, the map looked BEAUTIFUL!!!! :D GREAT JOB GUYS!!

Are you sure? Beta 10 isn't released yet. I think you meant beta 9. :yup:

Are you sure? Beta 10 isn't released yet. I think you meant beta 9. :yup:

I'm talking about the latest SVN, which is currently working on Beta 10 :p

Also you might want to remove the current Isabella and instead add this LH:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=16660

Also I was revisiting some of Bakuel's units, and it seems that you could use the Russian units he made, plus incorporate the new Orthodox Missionary unit which looks great. You could really have more diverse units, because currently diverse units in this game are sort of lacking

the cordobans, the first UHV doesnt work , beside that that i had 13 pops in 960.salute

Welcome to CFC.

The UHV did work in all previous versions. Are you sure Constantinople wasn't larger? (You can use the WB to check it)

What's wrong with Calais?

And what are Ritturbuter Knights?

What's wrong with Calais?
Everything is wrong with Calais Leoreth! :)
For starters the English (the Normans more like it) did not control the city in 1066. Calais was an independent city, part of Flanders, which was famous for its sheep and wool, which it would sell to the English for hundreds of years. When the 100 Years War came along, the people of Calais sided with the French Dauphin, but their wool business was ruined. Anyway thats side tracking a bit...
Anyway, so if we keep Calais as a strong independent city with sheep near by, I believe that would be the best.
So instead of the English getting that city (and I have no clue who suggested it in the first place), they should receive a city called Rouen in Normandy and on the tip of France Rennes, another city at the tip of Normandy.

And what are Ritturbuter Knights?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livonian_Crusade
They were German knights used in the Livonian crusade, I believe thats a misspelling though.... :blush:

Beta 9 Netherlands report here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10299702&postcount=121

As for gameplay itself, the path to victory happened to be trivial in this game, as I acquired a 13-population Antwerpen on the flip. With the pro-GPP religious civic and the low Dutch GP threshold, this city generated the first three Great Merchants in fewer than 15 turns. I had all five Great Merchants settled long before the 10 Open Borders UHV goal deadline.

Two cosmetic notes:
1. Hungary needs a different colour to disambiguate it from the big dark orange Turkish landmass on the minimap. Is there a shade of green that is not being used?
2. Pure judgement call here, but I'd name the Netherlands province "Holland". Neither is a perfect description of the region we're talking about. Netherlands should include Flanders, but Holland should exclude the eastern provinces of the Netherlands IRL. It doesn't really matter. I just think it's neater to not have a civ and province with the same name.

2. Pure judgement call here, but I'd name the Netherlands province "Holland". Neither is a perfect description of the region we're talking about. Netherlands should include Flanders, but Holland should exclude the eastern provinces of the Netherlands IRL. It doesn't really matter. I just think it's neater to not have a civ and province with the same name.

If neccessary, the eastern part could be called Gelre. But I agree on Holland.

Playin Beta 9 and have found an error that was corrected but overcorrected. The Pope now calls way more defensive crusades than crusades for Jerusalem. Im in 1289 and there have been no crusades for the holy land, it is currently controlled by arabs.

Yeah I noticed this too. The turn after I declared war on Poland as Lithuania, they got a defensive crusade - ugh!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livonian_Crusade
They were German knights used in the Livonian crusade, I believe thats a misspelling though.... :blush:

Using the generic Teutonic Knights would be simple enough. Also, I think that the objective for Poland/Lithuania should be to have a defensive alliance and withstand the Teutonic invasion (Tannenberg/Grunwald 1410AD). It was, after all, the greatest medieval clash of arms. That would be much more historical and it would be great for a German vs Lithuania/Poland war.

Also the Lithuanians employed tatar cavalry at Tannenberg, maybe spawn them with 2-4 keshiks?

Is there something wrong with the Reformation? Only the civ who founds Protestentism goes with it...

Is there something wrong with the Reformation? Only the civ who founds Protestentism goes with it...

hmm..... I usually don't play till that late in the game, but in "a perfect world"/"perfect game", civilizations which historically converted to Lutheranism have a greater chance of going ahead with it, like Germany, the Dutch (well thats automatic now), English and the Nordic countries (Norway and Sweden), while you should hardly EVER see a Huguenot controlled France (actually that would be cool to see) or a Protestant Spain or Austria.

And yes Hockeysam, I was talking about the Teutonic Knights, I don't know how I forgot their name :crazyeye:
But I'm sure there is already some sort of unit graphic for them, so adding them should be easy and really cool at the same time :)

Also I continue to urge the makers of this mod, to add more unique units to RFC Europe, as unlike the Middle East or East Asia finding unique units is/was relatively hard, while for Europe, there must be a huge cache of cool unique European unit graphics.

Something that disturbs me about the templar orders are that they never are used for what they were meant for, conquer Jerusalem. They are just used for intra catholic fighting. Maybe the concept should be revised?

Something that disturbs me about the templar orders are that they never are used for what they were meant for, conquer Jerusalem. They are just used for intra catholic fighting. Maybe the concept should be revised?

Could not agree more with you Ezzlar, in fact the entire crusade mechanic should be revised IMO. But for now, I sincerely believe that their might be other bigger issues to be solved.

hmm..... I usually don't play till that late in the game, but in "a perfect world"/"perfect game", civilizations which historically converted to Lutheranism have a greater chance of going ahead with it, like Germany, the Dutch (well thats automatic now), English and the Nordic countries (Norway and Sweden), while you should hardly EVER see a Huguenot controlled France (actually that would be cool to see) or a Protestant Spain or Austria. [...]


Well I just founded Protestantism as Austria, and No one, repeat, NO ONE converted to Protestantism after ten turns(after a while I just converted for S&G)

Huguenot France wasn't THAT unlikely.

I think I wrote the reformation code, but to be honest with you I can't remember how it worked.

I think I wrote the reformation code, but to be honest with you I can't remember how it worked.

How is Saint Patrick's Day? :jesus:

hmm..... I usually don't play till that late in the game, but in "a perfect world"/"perfect game", civilizations which historically converted to Lutheranism have a greater chance of going ahead with it, like Germany, the Dutch (well thats automatic now), English and the Nordic countries (Norway and Sweden), while you should hardly EVER see a Huguenot controlled France (actually that would be cool to see) or a Protestant Spain or Austria.

And yes Hockeysam, I was talking about the Teutonic Knights, I don't know how I forgot their name :crazyeye:
But I'm sure there is already some sort of unit graphic for them, so adding them should be easy and really cool at the same time :)

Also I continue to urge the makers of this mod, to add more unique units to RFC Europe, as unlike the Middle East or East Asia finding unique units is/was relatively hard, while for Europe, there must be a huge cache of cool unique European unit graphics.

yeah i noticed this too. Almost everyone does: notibly austria and france more often than not. I'm talking England, Dutch, France, Burgundy, Poland, Germany, Norse, Sweden, Lithuania, Austria, Hungary. Usually about 7 of those. I'm thinking it should be like preferable religions. France and Austria would have some chance like 30% as a ballpark whereas more plausible protestant nations like poland have 60% or something. Idk, but there are lots of protestants and no good benefits for catholics (check out that discussion about jesuits, that could be a good new implementation)

yeah i noticed this too. Almost everyone does: notibly austria and france more often than not. I'm talking England, Dutch, France, Burgundy, Poland, Germany, Norse, Sweden, Lithuania, Austria, Hungary. Usually about 7 of those. I'm thinking it should be like preferable religions. France and Austria would have some chance like 30% as a ballpark whereas more plausible protestant nations like poland have 60% or something. Idk, but there are lots of protestants and no good benefits for catholics (check out that discussion about jesuits, that could be a good new implementation)

Honestly, by 1500 AD what are the benefits of Catholicism? Crusades are over, religious buildings are finished and money is secure. Which leaves the religious bonus with a handful of countries...

The religious change should be governed the same way it was in history, through possible gain.

Germany, England and France represented vast economic and military power which facilitated the wider spread of protestantism .. do you really think that it would even have been a blip on the radar had it been 'discovered' in a small influential state?
Had the big dogs not been the instigators, the 30 Year War would be known as the 30 Second War :D

In RFC:E the AI tend to flip if neighbours flip or if a flipper is significantly more powerful than the best the Papal lapdogs can do ..
Example: The games where Spain knocks out Cordoba early for instance leaves them as the strongest power in Europe which means that the Reformation never really gets going.

It is actually very realistic as it is now, may not be historically accurate but it would be rather boring if it was just a history lesson :)

How is Saint Patrick's Day? :jesus:

The apartment next door has playing Desi music all day to the people in the plaza below wearing leprechaun hats so, yeah, good.

The religious change should be governed the same way it was in history, through possible gain.

Germany, England and France represented vast economic and military power which facilitated the wider spread of protestantism .. do you really think that it would even have been a blip on the radar had it been 'discovered' in a small influential state?
Had the big dogs not been the instigators, the 30 Year War would be known as the 30 Second War :D

Well it was discovered in the Electorate of Saxony - hardly a great empire!

Well it was discovered in the Electorate of Saxony - hardly a great empire!
Not that simple, unless you buy into the idea of Luther being the one and only :)

The idea of protestantism came about in Austria (or Switzerland) at approximately the same time, with only slight variations to the 'theme', plus you had the whole bit about the English King not being struck down for giving Rome the finger ..
Even if you go with the Lutheran version, the alliances and sympathies between all the various states and parishes of the area constituted a force to be reckoned with and it grew in strength as Rome tried to tighten its grip.

The point is, while "Germany" wasn't united, the German speaking areas within which it was spreading through was widespread.

It is actually interesting that the divided "Germany" took on the major power of Austria at the time and survived unlike the Protestants in France! Thank the Swedes.

The point is, while "Germany" wasn't united, the German speaking areas within which it was spreading through was widespread.

It is actually interesting that the divided "Germany" took on the major power of Austria at the time and survived unlike the Protestants in France! Thank the Swedes.

Protestant League, thats how they united, while the Huguenots in France were under the suppressive Catholic Regime. And following with that idea about the Swedes and King Gustav, the 30 Years War really should be represented by some sort of event, which pits all Catholics vs Protestants. I just think that that would be pretty cool. And with that, you could have a few Austrian cities go into chaos due to the defenestration of Prague.

Poland is fairly easy, just continues expansion and turtling really. Stability doesn't really come into play until you hit the eastern lands for the UHV and tech-wise it is possible to stay in "touch" with the bulk of the pack (FRA still a runaway).

But sweet Goddess, it is booooring. Hundreds of years with nothing to do but hit end turn .. end turn .. end turn .. *shudder*. Needs more spice :D

I still want to say that the Reformation is broken, as I have never seen any country(AI, I don't count:rolleyes:) adopt it, with the exception of Holland, naturally.

Played Cordobans. I don't think I won it, but it was just a matter of waiting for 1492. The win is not as trivial as Netherlands, but still straightforward and I would classify it as "Easy". Cordoba as largest city in the world was a marginal win against the usual strong contenders in the Middle East. I didn't encounter any particular difficulty in getting the three wonders well in time, even while taking other research paths to wait out the early-research penalty. Building eight of the unique units is enough to smash Castille, even in the midgame, and Portugal is a similar story. It's even easier to build the UUs because of the ease with which Cordoba acquires Faith Points, which speed up unit construction for Muslims, and because of the overpowered +3 hammers from the unique building.

As regards balance, the UU and UB are too good. Maybe 1 first strike for the UU instead of 2, and +1 hammer from the UB instead of +3? Portugal should get more anti-cavalry units at the start to defend against a "surgical strike" strategy.

Honestly, by 1500 AD what are the benefits of Catholicism? Crusades are over, religious buildings are finished and money is secure. Which leaves the religious bonus with a handful of countries...

I think the reformation event should change the catholic faith point bonus.

How about: The counter reformation: +X% attack against protestant civs?

Poland is fairly easy, just continues expansion and turtling really. Stability doesn't really come into play until you hit the eastern lands for the UHV and tech-wise it is possible to stay in "touch" with the bulk of the pack (FRA still a runaway).

But sweet Goddess, it is booooring. Hundreds of years with nothing to do but hit end turn .. end turn .. end turn .. *shudder*. Needs more spice :D
What are the good city locations? The places look so crappy (I like to optimize cities).

Started out with 2 cities on the baltic coast, both with rivers+food, capital in place and a happiness farm above the honey SW of Krakow .. awfully close to Hungary, but he is a docile beast and Silver+Gold is huge when forges are applied, good spot to hem in Austria when they come into play.

Hard to truly optimize. I went for river locations as first priority (better coin/health) and food source as second priority as I expanded east. Overlap is unavoidable so don't worry about it.
Arm up in anticipation of the Lithuanian spawn (minimize cities in his area), knock him out and steal his stuff!, errr land ... I had Chivalry faster than I can with the English, gotta love river farms with manorilism/serfdom :D

I'm mostly enjoying this mod. I've won as the Arabs, Germans, and Dutch. I like the religion system because all of the religions provide different benefits: Orthodoxy is great for large empires, Catholicism for crusades, Protestantism for colonizing and research, Islam for making troops quickly. (I'm not sure why you would want to stay Catholic after the Reformation though.) I like the province system, but I have a couple of minor nitpicks: As the Germans, I conquered a city in the province of Lithuania, which is unstable, and the city name became Konigsberg. Konigsberg is very much a German city, and I don't think it should be unstable. Also, Franconia is a very small province. If you make the mistake, as I did, of moving your initial settlers as Germany, you won't control Franconia for your UHV. I just ended up making a non-optimally placed city, but really, if you control all the tiles of a province with your culture, it should count. But overall, I really like the province system.

There are a couple other annoyances/obstacles to enjoyment. One of them is Atlantic access. I just don't understand it. I played the Portuguese one time and didn't get Atlantic access. My empire included my starting cities, all the Cordoban cities, some of north Africa, the Canary Islands, and the Azores. This game was before my game as the Dutch, and I hadn't seen Atlantic access before, so I may have just missed the little black dot, which is a very non-obvious way to show Atlantic access. I also missed out on Atlantic access as the Germans, even though I conquered France, and hence had cities on the coast of the Atlantic. Afterwards, I played the Dutch to figure out how to make colonies.

Another thing I don't get is what does "richest" mean? How is it determined who gets to buy out a crusade? How does the third Byzantine UHV work? I ought to have just finished a Byzantine game, but I didn't get the third UHV, even though I had quadruple anyone else's GNP and had a couple thousand gold. As for the crusades, Venice seems to require a bit of luck to get their second UHV. Before they get super rich, the crusades need to fail, so that they can buy out a crusade to sack Constantinople. In my attempts at Venice, either someone succeeded in taking Jerusalem, or the Spanish bought out the crusades to fight Cordoba. I haven't gotten past the second UHV yet, but if I did, how would Venice get Atlantic Access?

Did you use your fishing boats to "activate" Atlantic access improvements? Back when I played this mod, you had to do this...

Just press the button that shows all the resources and then you will see the atlantic access resource.

I'm mostly enjoying this mod. I've won as the Arabs, Germans, and Dutch. I like the religion system because all of the religions provide different benefits: Orthodoxy is great for large empires, Catholicism for crusades, Protestantism for colonizing and research, Islam for making troops quickly. (I'm not sure why you would want to stay Catholic after the Reformation though.) I like the province system, but I have a couple of minor nitpicks: As the Germans, I conquered a city in the province of Lithuania, which is unstable, and the city name became Konigsberg. Konigsberg is very much a German city, and I don't think it should be unstable. Also, Franconia is a very small province. If you make the mistake, as I did, of moving your initial settlers as Germany, you won't control Franconia for your UHV. I just ended up making a non-optimally placed city, but really, if you control all the tiles of a province with your culture, it should count. But overall, I really like the province system.

There are a couple other annoyances/obstacles to enjoyment. One of them is Atlantic access. I just don't understand it. I played the Portuguese one time and didn't get Atlantic access. My empire included my starting cities, all the Cordoban cities, some of north Africa, the Canary Islands, and the Azores. This game was before my game as the Dutch, and I hadn't seen Atlantic access before, so I may have just missed the little black dot, which is a very non-obvious way to show Atlantic access. I also missed out on Atlantic access as the Germans, even though I conquered France, and hence had cities on the coast of the Atlantic. Afterwards, I played the Dutch to figure out how to make colonies.

Another thing I don't get is what does "richest" mean? How is it determined who gets to buy out a crusade? How does the third Byzantine UHV work? I ought to have just finished a Byzantine game, but I didn't get the third UHV, even though I had quadruple anyone else's GNP and had a couple thousand gold. As for the crusades, Venice seems to require a bit of luck to get their second UHV. Before they get super rich, the crusades need to fail, so that they can buy out a crusade to sack Constantinople. In my attempts at Venice, either someone succeeded in taking Jerusalem, or the Spanish bought out the crusades to fight Cordoba. I haven't gotten past the second UHV yet, but if I did, how would Venice get Atlantic Access?

If you don't have a city in a province that you have to control, you have to have all tiles of that province within your cultural borders(easily done with Franconia)

Atlantic Access usually first shows up when you research Astronomy (I think) Norse are an exception

I've won with Venice in Beta 9 without taking over a crusade, you just have to put an early emphasis on building some troops, especially siege weapons(constantinople only had 2 Guisarmiers in the city, but that nice 225% def bonus)
You get atlantic access from Tanger in north africa (admitted it's not soo visible but once you know about it you tend to notice it more)

Just press the button that shows all the resources and then you will see the atlantic access resource.

Wow, that's a really good idea.

Thanks for the replies!

I don't think everyone notices that. Even players like me (I play with maximum interface, tile yields etc.) have a hard time to spot them. Don't know how to improve it though.

By the way, this is the 5000th post of the thread, that's quite a lot.:cool: