You guys are making a great mod here, really fun. Please keep it up!

I guess this should belong in the "OMG" thread which will be made in the future.
I was playing Austria and declared war on Hungary just a few turns after spawning.
I sent my whole army towards Pest and a Hungarian Crossbowman managed to sneak by it and took Wien, next thing I know I'm in ROME!

I guess this should belong in the "OMG" thread which will be made in the future.
I was playing Austria and declared war on Hungary just a few turns after spawning.
I sent my whole army towards Pest and a Hungarian Crossbowman managed to sneak by it and took Wien, next thing I know I'm in ROME!

This is part of the RFC code. If you loose your capital, you get exiled to another nation and have x number of turns to recapture it. It may look odd, but it is exactly how it works in RFC. Maybe we should change that so that you can only get exiled to a non-Papal state. The Pope can never capture any city.

This is part of the RFC code. If you loose your capital, you get exiled to another nation and have x number of turns to recapture it. It may look odd, but it is exactly how it works in RFC. Maybe we should change that so that you can only get exiled to a non-Papal state. The Pope can never capture any city.

I have seen a Papal unit walk into an empty city. Though usually the Pope just demands mine when I build one.:lol:

Yes it happened to me in RFC, but I was never exiled to the Byzantine Empire or to the natives :P.

Yes it happened to me in RFC, but I was never exiled to the Byzantine Empire or to the natives :P.

The Pope works different than the Byzantines or the Natives in RFC. The Pope is a full player, one can interact with the Pope in any way except war/vassalage.

The Pope works different than the Byzantines or the Natives in RFC. The Pope is a full player, one can interact with the Pope in any way except war/vassalage.

Have you read my comments on that and other suggestions on the Disussion thread? (1607) Any reply?:)

Have you read my comments on that and other suggestions on the Disussion thread? (1607) Any reply?:)

It is all on my "todo" list in some form of shape or another. I never considered the Crusades complete for example. Capturing Jerusalem should give stability and foreign relations boost + a golden age (only once). One should be able to call for a defensive Crusade (if the Pope likes them enough). The Pope should be building Missionaries and Inquisitors and gifting them to various Catholic nations. And so on and so forth.

BTW thanks for the list.

It is all on my "todo" list in some form of shape or another. I never considered the Crusades complete for example. Capturing Jerusalem should give stability and foreign relations boost + a golden age (only once). One should be able to call for a defensive Crusade (if the Pope likes them enough). The Pope should be building Missionaries and Inquisitors and gifting them to various Catholic nations. And so on and so forth.

BTW thanks for the list.

For your to-do list, there's a new list of colonies to be added in the Wonders thread.

Russia is hard to play in this version. Almost all cities that wery supposed to flip, flipped to me with on average 2 crossbowmen in the city. Those two facts combined, I started with ~-25 gold per turn on 100%. Even worse, there were no river tiles without forests to I had a nett loss of -17 gold per turn on 0% research. I think we should reconsider the start date, since I don't really have a solution to it, because either growth, infrastructure or defense are neglected completely.

Domination with 36.44 population and 26.14 land area. Only Poland as a vassal.

Well, I'm proud of this, but I think stability and Arabian research are too generous. For most of the game I had an insane tech lead, and had no problem building practically every wonder. I never researched Chivalry, and relied on my houses of wisdom until the Encyclopedia gave me Chivalry.

The Seljuk invasion was enough to be annoying, and force actual defense of Antioch and Levant, but was not overpowering as it has been in the past.

On the UHV: I had amassed Hussars outside of Oran, and could have taken it for the 3rd UHV easy enough. Arabia is a pretty easy game now.

screenshots:

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f3/kalmbob/Civ/Civ4ScreenShot0115.jpg
As you can see stability is a bit borked. I buffered my massive empire mostly by having over +100 in the cities column. I'm sure this is a by product of the recent fix to Arabian instability due to religions. I stayed islamic the whole game, and never adopted free religion (I suspect stability would have gone even higher if I had)


The core of the empire:
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f3/kalmbob/Civ/Civ4ScreenShot0116.jpg

I took most of Anatolia on my spawn, and I razed all the cities that would eventually flip to Turkey. I was hoping to vasalize Turkey, but they would have nothing of it, and so I just signed a defensive pact and opened borders with them. In previous games, I had no problem taking Constantinople on spawn, but the stationary defenders made this impossible. Instead it wasn't until sometime after 1300 that I took it from Mongol barbarians who had taken it 2 turns earlier.

Eastern Europe:
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f3/kalmbob/Civ/Civ4ScreenShot0117.jpg
In the 1500 and 1600s I began to mass produce Hussars. My technological lead meant I rarely faced a superior defensive force, and when I did, I could outnumber them and rely on withdraw chances to win. Indeed the new Hussars are very powerful, but I would not say they were overpowered until I could see how they fare against contemporary troops. Their speed made for a rapid sweep across Hungary, Austria, Poland and eventually Russia. I managed to get capitulations out of all but Hungary, but Austria and Russia collapsed shortly after. I think above posters are right that Russia has serious problems in the current version.

Africa:
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f3/kalmbob/Civ/Civ4ScreenShot0118.jpg
I neglected to take Oran, but I was surprised to see Cordoba settle it. I like the updated Cordoban settler map. I made friends with them for most of the game, and relied on my fellow Muslims for trade. You may not be able to see it very well, but I also have privateers blockading practically every foreign port in the Mediterranean.

A few notes:

General:
1) Include the music from the Warlords opening menu.
2) Remove lions from Eastern Europe.
3) I'm not lovin' the Enrico Dandolo art when compared to our other leaders.
4) Rename the Round Church of Preslav and St. Sophia of Kiev to something that doesn't indicate the city that they're in (perhaps use the Bulgarian and Ukrainian names?)
5) Perhaps include an Islamic and Orthodox crusade against. . . Mongols, Tamerlane, Byzantium. . . just an idea.
6) Make skirmishers always capture, rather than kill workers? Maybe have more units go for a capture vs kill to represent slave taking?

Some more specific notes about my Kievan game/massacre:
1) Start Kiev with Orthodox missionaries. Despite open borders with Bulgaria and Byzantium, Orthodoxy (and no religion, for that matter) didn't start spreading until I was getting creamed by the Mongols.
2) Allow combat experience to build against barbarians. This might not be ideal for France and Burgundy, but should be core to England, Kiev, Russia, and Cordoba. At the very least the first three.
3) A Kievan UHV is currently completely impossible because the Mongols, who attack from all sides, will pillage all the terrain improvements and workers won't be able to rebuild them by 1300. Perhaps have 6 or 7 grain before the Mongol attacks, rather than eight (or keep eight, but remove the "in 1300" to something before the invasion).
4) I know the Horde has been nerfed, but it might make more sense to concentrate them as a stack, rather than appearing all over the place. This would make the stack very frightening, but would allow a potentially effective defense. As Kiev I was defending all of my cities simultaneously.
5) I don't know if it's codeable, but limit city revolts while the Mongols are attacking. The common enemy should scare the bejesus out of the threatened cities - if they do revolt the units should stay with Kiev (or whoever).

A few notes:

General:
1) Include the music from the Warlords opening menu.
2) Remove lions from Eastern Europe.
3) I'm not lovin' the Enrico Dandolo art when compared to our other leaders.
4) Rename the Round Church of Preslav and St. Sophia of Kiev to something that doesn't indicate the city that they're in (perhaps use the Bulgarian and Ukrainian names?)
5) Perhaps include an Islamic and Orthodox crusade against. . . Mongols, Tamerlane, Byzantium. . . just an idea.
6) Make skirmishers always capture, rather than kill workers? Maybe have more units go for a capture vs kill to represent slave taking?

Some more specific notes about my Kievan game/massacre:
1) Start Kiev with Orthodox missionaries. Despite open borders with Bulgaria and Byzantium, Orthodoxy (and no religion, for that matter) didn't start spreading until I was getting creamed by the Mongols.
2) Allow combat experience to build against barbarians. This might not be ideal for France and Burgundy, but should be core to England, Kiev, Russia, and Cordoba. At the very least the first three.
3) A Kievan UHV is currently completely impossible because the Mongols, who attack from all sides, will pillage all the terrain improvements and workers won't be able to rebuild them by 1300. Perhaps have 6 or 7 grain before the Mongol attacks, rather than eight (or keep eight, but remove the "in 1300" to something before the invasion).
4) I know the Horde has been nerfed, but it might make more sense to concentrate them as a stack, rather than appearing all over the place. This would make the stack very frightening, but would allow a potentially effective defense. As Kiev I was defending all of my cities simultaneously.
5) I don't know if it's codeable, but limit city revolts while the Mongols are attacking. The common enemy should scare the bejesus out of the threatened cities - if they do revolt the units should stay with Kiev (or whoever).

Good points.
1. Maybe eventually.
2. There used to be lions on the Balkans (the animal symbol of Bulgaria is a lion).
4. Yea, those have to be renamed, but that would take a thought or two.
5. AFAIK there was never anything like this in history (actually Byzantines and Bulgarians used the Mongols against each other).

Moscow and Kiev are being rebalanced right now. I will take your notes in consideration.

Good points.
1. Maybe eventually.
2. There used to be lions on the Balkans (the animal symbol of Bulgaria is a lion).
4. Yea, those have to be renamed, but that would take a thought or two.
5. AFAIK there was never anything like this in history (actually Byzantines and Bulgarians used the Mongols against each other).

Moscow and Kiev are being rebalanced right now. I will take your notes in consideration.

I had no idea about Balkan lions! That'll go in the trivia bank.

In re. no. 5, I don't think there was something quite like it in history either, but the sack of Kiev got much of Europe concerned about the Mongol invasion, and my thinking was something akin to the crusades for our non-Catholic players to have the option to participate in, even if it's not strictly historical. To me, Catholicism seems a little overpowered before the Reformation: why wouldn't a civ be Catholic, especially compared to Orthodoxy, with the benefits it currently has, let alone with the potentially new and improved AP?

On something tangentially related, if we wanted to give a disincentive to be Catholic, could it perhaps require that gold be sent to Rome?

I had no idea about Balkan lions! That'll go in the trivia bank.

In re. no. 5, I don't think there was something quite like it in history either, but the sack of Kiev got much of Europe concerned about the Mongol invasion, and my thinking was something akin to the crusades for our non-Catholic players to have the option to participate in, even if it's not strictly historical. To me, Catholicism seems a little overpowered before the Reformation: why wouldn't a civ be Catholic, especially compared to Orthodoxy, with the benefits it currently has, let alone with the potentially new and improved AP?

On something tangentially related, if we wanted to give a disincentive to be Catholic, could it perhaps require that gold be sent to Rome?

There were lions on the Balkans brought from Africa by the Byzantines and legends also speak of loose lions. I believe it is just a question of animals spawning at random in the mod.

I have always been in favor of Orthodoxy having more scientific boost than Catholicism, while the Catholics have Crusades and such. Crusades are not complete yet, it is on the immediate "todo" list.

Maybe the idea is too late, but what about to simulate the Schism of 1054? The same way as reformation is simulated. And another thing: what about making the missionaries go through borders like spies or something? For better spreading.
EDIT: Or it may be only an event, and would make -2 relationship between catholic and orthodoy nations. Or I don't know, something.

Playing as Cordoba, Tanjah flipped to me, while it was affected by plague. The plague does not spread, nor does it go away.

Let me know if you need the save file on this.

Playing as Cordoba, Tanjah flipped to me, while it was affected by plague. The plague does not spread, nor does it go away.

Let me know if you need the save file on this.

I reported this in an earlier post. Also, in my game, the barbs never turned up to attack Tanjah. Not even one.

A word of warning to everybody. I've just installed the new 3.19 version of BTS and RFC Europe will not open at all anymore. Be warned.

EDIT I've managed to fix it through system restore. ie. restoring my computer to yesterdays settings.
Apparently you aren't able to play any version of RFC or RFC mods if 3.19 is installed.:(

operafantom, the two churches were separate in many ways long before 1054, however, we do need to put something extra in terms of the schism. An easy thing to do would be to give diplomacy bonus to Catholics and Orthodoxes that will expire in 1054. That way, at least initially, they will be friendly to each other.

In the next version, Roman units (including Missionaries and Prosecutors) will move trough independent territory without declaring war. That should help the Pope spread some religion.

jessiecat, this is bad news. I will try to update the game today, since I am using Linux it may take some time. I will make sure the mod work well on either version of BtS.

About religion spreading: Tunis, Alger and Tanjah always end up with Catholicism, it would be better if they spawn with Islam.

About the Pope not being able to go to war....

The first should suffice, but if you need to be assured I've taken Rome in the one labeled Papal Apocalypse. This happened just after I completed two of the three UHVs as Arabia.

Don't know if this was already mentioned or is supposed to happen, but I figured it was new to me and I'd put it up just in case.

About the Pope not being able to go to war....

The first should suffice, but if you need to be assured I've taken Rome in the one labeled Papal Apocalypse. This happened just after I completed two of the three UHVs as Arabia.

Don't know if this was already mentioned or is supposed to happen, but I figured it was new to me and I'd put it up just in case.

Who declared the war? Did you declare war on the Pope or the Pope on you? (I found one more Papal war bug that will be fixed in the next version)

Who declared the war? Did you declare war on the Pope or the Pope on you? (I found one more Papal war bug that will be fixed in the next version)

That might be the reason why Spain and the Pope were at war with each other (previous version). They hated each other quite a lot, even tried to bribe me to declare war too. In the end, the Pope capitulated and became Spain's vassal.

I just finished my Burgudian game. Here are the comments:

- The Pope and France had war with eachother. (same as the posts above I think)
- About 2 turns after the German spawn the barbs razed Frankfurt. So they had just Augsburg. Not many turns later they collapsed.
- The same for England. Londen captured, Caen capital and some other cities. The were unstable and Southampton declared independance, but it would be recaptured.
- Kiev collapsed very early. I even didn't met them. So the Mongols could easily go to Poland and Bulgaria. Both collapsed. But Poland came back a few turn before the end. (1500)
- First game with my new corporation combo. I used to have Bank of St. George and Teutonic Knights, but know I had Knight Templar, Hanseatic League and Augsburg families. I don't care about the bonusses, but I do about the profits you can make. So 3 is better then 2 in that case.
- Not only in this game, but in all games the AI declares war to me when I win the 2nd UHV. (This time Arabia and Byzantium.) Why does the AI do that?Are they programmed to do that or is it a bug?

The pope declared war on me. I mean, usually, when I complete 2 UHVs a bunch of people who don't like me, declare war on me. This time, the pope just happened to be among their number. However, it happened in conjunction with my spreading Islam to 25% of the world, so I don't know if that had anything to do with it.

I have not seen anything in the code about UHVs and wars. It must be a coincidence or perhaps the AI just figures that you are playing well and attacks (that last one is coded in).

The Pope declaring war/Capitulating is a bug that should be fixed for the next version. (assuming I eventually manage to figure out the 3.19 patch)

I think it's coded in RFC as well, Many times the AI declared war on me as soon as I hit the 2nd UHV.

Played for a while with the game: I was in peace with the barbs, it might be a bug :)

Yes its a bug. Playing as Cordoba on the new version, the barbs didn't attack at all. Not even on Tanjah where no barbs turned up. Thanks 3Miro for nerfing the barbs. They are at peace with everybody now. I even had to declare war on a lion.:lol:

I can confirm that the barbarians are at peace by default now. As a result I had Kiev winning a historical victory in my French game.

I can confirm that the barbarians are at peace by default now. As a result I had Kiev winning a historical victory in my French game.

This is a bug, probably due to the migration of the code. I will fix it.

I met a CTD while playing as France; I'll see if I can find the Autosave and re-create it.

I met a CTD while playing as France; I'll see if I can find the Autosave and re-create it.

Unfortunately I do need those saves. Someone saying that there is a CTD means there is a bug somewhere in the over 100,000 lines of code. There is no way for me fix it just from that.

I can't recreate it, so chalk it down to a sporadic bug.

I can't recreate it, so chalk it down to a sporadic bug.

I'll keep my eyers open when I poke through the code, but it might be Windows or DirectX or generally Civ IV related and hence I will be unable to do anything. If it doesn't reoccur when you reload it at least doesn't destroy the gameplay.

I found a bug in the 1st Kievan UHV. I have 8 grains with farms and 2 more in my territory. (I don't know which counts, but those 8 should be enough.) It's 1326 and it says "not yet".

Bulgaria builds colonies!

Playing as Austria: do I have to conquer the whole Carpathian Basin or is it enough to vassalize Hungary, and Austria and Hungary have the whole Carpathian Basin?
Another thing: it seems like Hungarian AI doesn't really understand his task. Until 1500 it only had two cities, but after 1500 it built two another cities in a short period of time. The UHV is that to be the largest in 1500. Is there a connection? I mean that Hungary starts with 3 settlers, it only uses two of it (it strange, early cities give stability, don't they) and deliberately doesn't build other cities, only one or two of them.

The year in the Kiev UHV is wrong (it says 1300, but it is 1400). That would be fixed for the next version.

There is nothing wrong with Bulgaria or anyone else for that matter to found a colony. Colonial powers (England, Spain, Netherlands) simply have Atlantic access and hence can build colonies faster.

For details on the UHVs one can look in the Reference folder in RFCEurope folder. There are details there. I believe Austria had to conquer Hungary, vassalizing is not enough.

3Miro, I think what Merijn meant was that it is good the AI builds colonies.
Operafantom, I don't think the AI knows about UHVs, perhaps it's a small bug with his settling judgments.

The year in the Kiev UHV is wrong (it says 1300, but it is 1400). That would be fixed for the next version.

There is nothing wrong with Bulgaria or anyone else for that matter to found a colony. Colonial powers (England, Spain, Netherlands) simply have Atlantic access and hence can build colonies faster.

Is that also for the 2nd and 3rd UHV? I'm in 1420 or something and the 2nd UHV says in 1400.

I know their is nothing wrong. I just thought is was funny that they also have colonies, because they had none AFAIK.

Is that also for the 2nd and 3rd UHV? I'm in 1420 or something and the 2nd UHV says in 1400.

I know their is nothing wrong. I just thought is was funny that they also have colonies, because they had none AFAIK.

Kiev's 2nd UHV is in 1500. I easily won.

Get military tradition/professional army before Mongols come, get Teutonics Knight at all cost, you'll easily overcome Keshiks. Just build some workers to rework the grains.

I just finished a Kievan game. Here are some notes:

- The early spread of Orthodoxy is not a problem if one quickly builds a city close to Bulgaria and OB with Bulgaria and Byzantium. Religion spreads trough the trade roads. I had the first Orthodox city 10 turns after spawn and all others within 10 turns of founding. I never build missionaries.

- Mongols are tough, but manageable. The Keshik starts with strength of 12, however, all Barbs start without any promotions. A Kievan Drijina with strength 11 and combat 1 promotion has slight advantage. A Drujina with both Barracks and Stables gets combat 2 and between 70 and 80% chance vs a Keshik. I even managed to get Knights with strength 13. I had total of 18 Knights + Drijinas and I lost maybe 9 of them (+4 workers). I never lost a city, however, it came close. If it was too easy I wouldn't have felt like fighting the Mongolian Horde.

- The rest was fairly easy. I was one of the leaders in techs and in score I only trailed the Arabs (Spain was close). I never build any wonders, so all my score from land and population.

The UHV timing has to be fixed, otherwise it all works fine.

Proposal:

- Lets increase the number of resources needed for the UHV from 8 to at least 10. 8 is far too easy.

I just finished a Kievan game. Here are some notes:

- The early spread of Orthodoxy is not a problem if one quickly builds a city close to Bulgaria and OB with Bulgaria and Byzantium. Religion spreads trough the trade roads. I had the first Orthodox city 10 turns after spawn and all others within 10 turns of founding. I never build missionaries.

- Mongols are tough, but manageable. The Keshik starts with strength of 12, however, all Barbs start without any promotions. A Kievan Drijina with strength 11 and combat 1 promotion has slight advantage. A Drujina with both Barracks and Stables gets combat 2 and between 70 and 80% chance vs a Keshik. I even managed to get Knights with strength 13. I had total of 18 Knights + Drijinas and I lost maybe 9 of them (+4 workers). I never lost a city, however, it came close. If it was too easy I wouldn't have felt like fighting the Mongolian Horde.

- The rest was fairly easy. I was one of the leaders in techs and in score I only trailed the Arabs (Spain was close). I never build any wonders, so all my score from land and population.

The UHV timing has to be fixed, otherwise it all works fine.

Proposal:

- Lets increase the number of resources needed for the UHV from 8 to at least 10. 8 is far too easy.

I also just finished my Kievan game.

In my game Orthodoxism also came very early, and I also didn't have to build missionaries.

I didn't installed the Barb-Patch yet. So the Mongols were very easy.:D

I like the Idea of the 10 resources. I had 8 with farms and 2 without (in 1300) so it's doable if I built the farms.

I started the Byzantians and they haven´t got pre-know area. IMO this should be good. (Sorry for the bad drawing)

I started the Byzantians and they haven´t got pre-know area. IMO this should be good. (Sorry for the bad drawing)

Only the Normal area as defines in Const.py is visible. For most civs this area will have to be expanded.

It makes little difference for the Byzantines since they do not build settlers anyway.

Still, Byzantium should know about Italy and the Dalmatian coast, no?

The reason I said it was to have Cyrene the bonussus of the resources, otherwise the will be unhealthy and unhappy. And it's why should they don't know their inland sea?

I also just finished my Kievan game.

In my game Orthodoxism also came very early, and I also didn't have to build missionaries.

I didn't installed the Barb-Patch yet. So the Mongols were very easy.:D

I like the Idea of the 10 resources. I had 8 with farms and 2 without (in 1300) so it's doable if I built the farms.

I agree that 10 would be better than 8 which will mean building more cities earlier to link up the grains. I've just completed all 3 UHVs in 1510 without getting the victory so the conditions must be 1400/1500/1600 instead of what it says in the description. 1300 might be fairly hard for 10 grains as the Mongols turn up about 1240 and trash every farm and they last past 1280. Would you be able to restore all 10 farms in time? I don't think so.
The other two can be completed by 1500 easily enough of course if you've built enough cities.

I don't think farms are needed for the UHV. Jessiecat, if you have a save right before the grain UHV was acknowledged, load it, go to WB and erase the farms. See if it makes a difference.

I don't think farms are needed for the UHV. Jessiecat, if you have a save right before the grain UHV was acknowledged, load it, go to WB and erase the farms. See if it makes a difference.

I'm not sure about that. In my last game the grains didn't count in my total until I built a farm on them.
I checked that by toggling to show resources and they weren't counted until they had a farm..:confused:

I just played a game with Russia.

Starting position is the worst of all civs: 3 cities with pop 3 and 6 cities with pop 1, and only 3 workers, no improved tiles, too many units, will still loose money at 100% gold. Thats like byzantium, but byzanz has a tech advantage and a lot of time to build up, russia has neither. You are backwards about 10 to 15 techs to ALL other civs at this time. Moscow starts with knights and arbalests, but lacks the tech to build these units. At least Plate Armour should be known, maybe 1 or 2 techs more. Civic Service is desperatley needed for faster workers.

The start was realy a pain, building workers in size 1 cities is a work for a century (~20 turns). Religion spreads also very slow, and 1 got 1 katholic and 2 islamic cities before the first orthodox, although i had open borders with byzanz early on. Maybe Moscow should start with missionaries like most other civs.

1 UHV: dont loose city to barbarin by 1400.
Its a joke, the only barbarians i saw where the 2 crossbows guarding Riga. This UHV was for the earlier start, but in 1323 all Keshiks are already history.

2 UHV: most cultured slavic nation in 1600
Mongol invasion seems to be a lot weaker, Kiev was strong in both of my tries. (Aborted the first one because Kiev had founded the culture corp....) In the second try, Kiev had still 18k culture (10k from buildings + 2 Great Artists). I only got 4k building culture and also 2 Great Artist (~12k culture total). Kiev is too strong now, it was score leader in 1600.
Maybe with apprenticeship i could have gotten 1 or 2 more artists, but there is not enough time for 5 Great Artists.

3 UHV: 12 cities in 1650
With 9 cities at the start, its cheap. I had 12 cities in ~1550.

I never played Russia in previous versions, so i cant say how different it is to the earlier start, but it needs some changes, especialy the 1st UHV and the starting position.
It was still fun to come back from so far behind in tech, in 1600 the tech leaders were only 3 tech in front compared to the 15 techs at the start. I was at WFYABTA before i got to Renaissance.

1. I agree. I don't know why the flip zone is so big. It wasn't before. Having 6 cities flip to you at the start cripples your development and your science. This needs to be changed to 2 or 3 on the flip as it was before.
2. The lack of workable river tiles at the start makes building commerce very hard. The late start means it is virtually impossible to catch up with the culture lead enjoyed by Poland and Kiev. I think this UHV should be changed to some thing else.

Do you have the patch installed? If the Mongols are peaceful, then Kiev will not fall to them.

The idea for Russia is the in the first several turns, they will "liberate" Kiev (which will be conquered by the Mongols). Early on, one should try to get Plate Armor, build workers all over the place and then Russia gets quite strong. (That is Kiev + Moscow).

For the religion, one should always seek early contact and develop trade network.

Having said that, I will increase the Russian city requirement to 15 and how about for the other UHV: Make sure there are no barbarian cities in Russia (that is Moscow + Kiev territory). The few weak barb cities on the edge of the map will not count.

Do you have the patch installed? If the Mongols are peaceful, then Kiev will not fall to them.

The idea for Russia is the in the first several turns, they will "liberate" Kiev (which will be conquered by the Mongols). Early on, one should try to get Plate Armor, build workers all over the place and then Russia gets quite strong. (That is Kiev + Moscow).

For the religion, one should always seek early contact and develop trade network.

Having said that, I will increase the Russian city requirement to 15 and how about for the other UHV: Make sure there are no barbarian cities in Russia (that is Moscow + Kiev territory). The few weak barb cities on the edge of the map will not count.

That still doesn't address the issue of starting with 9 cities, no infrastructure and few workable river tiles. Research becomes painfully slow as your money rapidly disappears. The only way I survived at all was to raze every barb and indy city as well as every worked tile. Just to get enough gold. Can we not return to a start with only a couple of flips? Then you have the option of capturing or razing the barb cities as you like.

That still doesn't address the issue of starting with 9 cities, no infrastructure and few workable river tiles. Research becomes painfully slow as your money rapidly disappears. The only way I survived at all was to raze every barb and indy city as well as every worked tile. Just to get enough gold. Can we not return to a start with only a couple of flips? Then you have the option of capturing or razing the barb cities as you like.

I will try another Moscow game, having many cities shouldn't be so bad, after all that's why they have their UP. We may give them Plate Armor from the start so that they can chop immediately.

If you can hold for 20 to 40 turns (and loot from Mongolian Kiev should be enough), one can get workers in all cities and then chop + cottages gives a rather fast growth. I will try it again with a different start to see how it works.

The only thing that I cam afraid of is that the initial army is supposed to liberate Kiev and not necessarily to capture other indies in the region.

Here is the problem. It is not the cities themselves, but the effect they have on the civic upkeep. Right now the Russian UP gives lower cost for number of cities and cities distance, I will update it to cover civic cost as well.

Also I will remove Kazan/Bulgar (those are actually different cities, it is a case of misaligned name map), and Samara from the spawn area.

For the new Russian UHV I propose to make it: ensure that there are no Barbarian (Mongolian) cities west of the Carpathians (basically Moscow and Kiev land) in 1481.

Here is the problem. It is not the cities themselves, but the effect they have on the civic upkeep. Right now the Russian UP gives lower cost for number of cities and cities distance, I will update it to cover civic cost as well.

Also I will remove Kazan/Bulgar (those are actually different cities, it is a case of misaligned name map), and Samara from the spawn area.

For the new Russian UHV I propose to make it: ensure that there are no Barbarian (Mongolian) cities west of the Carpathians (basically Moscow and Kiev land) in 1481.

I think you mean "East of the Carpathians"?::D

I think you mean "East of the Carpathians"?::D

Cone on, west is more challenging. Now a good player is the one who controls that part :crazyeye:

If you guys think EAST is a good idea I will go ahead and code it.

Yes, that's exactly what was wrong with Moscow. I think the new goal is very good, I like it. Another minor suggestion from my side: commerce is indeed very low. Maybe Moscow should start with lots of gold, so that you'll run broke at the point when infrastructure is just built. Then it's still fun to play, and there is nothing in the early game where Moscow can waste it's money. Also, I suggest to let Moscow start with 3 workers in it's capital AND 1 worker in every other flipped city. Moscow could also have a higher worker speed. I'm going to try this and I'll let you know.;)

Yes, that's exactly what was wrong with Moscow. I think the new goal is very good, I like it. Another minor suggestion from my side: commerce is indeed very low. Maybe Moscow should start with lots of gold, so that you'll run broke at the point when infrastructure is just built. Then it's still fun to play, and there is nothing in the early game where Moscow can waste it's money. Also, I suggest to let Moscow start with 3 workers in it's capital AND 1 worker in every other flipped city. Moscow could also have a higher worker speed. I'm going to try this and I'll let you know.;)

I think you are making it too easy, try going for Civic Services and Free Peasantry + lots of cottages. Russia is healthy enough (due to the forests) not to worry about the Plague too much (and they spawn after the black death).

So after a long time I decided to actually re-play the mod, as Venice. I am still very early, but the mod seems somehow different :goodjob:
To the issues:
1) I know that leaderheads are an artistic thing at most (beta or even later), but I burst in laughs when Pope Julius first meets me :lol::crazyeye:
2) Am I the only one to experience problems with tech trade advisor?
3) The UHVs for Venice are really easy, I would propose:
Control Greece (including Constantinople and islands) and Adriatic coast by 1300
Have 10000 gold by 1500
Found 3 corporations

What about that?

So after a long time I decided to actually re-play the mod, as Venice. I am still very early, but the mod seems somehow different :goodjob:
To the issues:
1) I know that leaderheads are an artistic thing at most (beta or even later), but I burst in laughs when Pope Julius first meets me :lol::crazyeye:
2) Am I the only one to experience problems with tech trade advisor?
3) The UHVs for Venice are really easy, I would propose:
Control Greece (including Constantinople and islands) and Adriatic coast by 1300
Have 10000 gold by 1500
Found 3 corporations

What about that?

1) I found a better one for the Pope. I will include it in the next version (however, we still need many more).
2) What problems?
3) Constantinople can be done via the IV-th Crusade dynamics. Have you done it to see how easy it is? In the next version, Crusaders will have some siege weapons as well. Try the corporations, I am not sure if it is possible (especially since those compete with each other).

2) What problems?


The same as 3-4 months ago. No leaderheads, no techs than can/can't be traded. See screenshot.

EDIT 1: Wait a bit, I tried to reupload the same screenshot from 3-4 months before. Request rejected.

EDIT 2: New screenie is up. The ''NOTHING'' at top was written by myself, since the file had to be edited to get accepted.

The same as 3-4 months ago. No leaderheads, no techs than can/can't be traded. See screenshot.

EDIT 1: Wait a bit, I tried to reupload the same screenshot from 3-4 months before. Request rejected.

EDIT 2: New screenie is up. The ''NOTHING'' at top was written by myself, since the file had to be edited to get accepted.

I can see the techs I can trade in all of my games, I was now aware of any problem and hence I did no effort to fix anything.

Go to your folder My Games\Beyond the Sword\Logs and right after you open such a screen and it doesn't show anything, get the file called PythonErr2.log, zip it and post it.

I suggest deleting all files of the mod and download it all over again, but 3Miro should find the exact problem so try his way first :).

@BurnEmDown: I have this problem for much time and many versions, so I don't think it will change anything.
@3Miro: Here is the file.

And BTW, exams over, back to 100%.

Just turn off the BUG mod, it caused the exact same problem to me ;)

It works! The problem was exactly that! Thanks! :)

Every time I load Spain, it doesn't stop at 0 turns left, it always simulates an extra turn, goes to -1 turns left, and I start at 912AD. ???
Hungary should start with some Catholic missionaries, it goes Orthodox too often.

Every time I load Spain, it doesn't stop at 0 turns left, it always simulates an extra turn, goes to -1 turns left, and I start at 912AD. ???
Hungary should start with some Catholic missionaries, it goes Orthodox too often.

Even if Hungary goes Orthodox in the beginning, it doesn't last at all. Soon afterwards it goes Catholic. I will look at it, but Magars definitely did not start Catholic. The new contacts and Papal AI might help for the next version w/o missionary.

Maybe, but the Magyars started Pagan, not Orthodox.

Maybe, but the Magyars started Pagan, not Orthodox.

They do start Pagan in the game. I suppose they make faster contact with Bulgaria and Byzantium and the first religion they get is Orthodoxy. The AI always goes for the first religion it can find. Only afterwards Catholicism catches couple of more cities and they go Catholic (since it is the favorite religion).

I can't wait to see the activities of the new pope, I really want to see Catholicism take over like it should, instead of messages like "Catholicism has spread in Boulogne" in 1491.:lol:
Also, did you fix the Madrid terrain issue? Or should I post screenshots anyway?
EDIT: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=250322&page=79
see post 1567

I can't wait to see the activities of the new pope, I really want to see Catholicism take over like it should, instead of messages like "Catholicism has spread in Boulogne" in 1491.:lol:
Also, did you fix the Madrid terrain issue? Or should I post screenshots anyway?
EDIT: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=250322&page=79
see post 1567

Yep I fixed it. The Pope doesn't spread the religion to indies, just to players.

And the Pope can still declare war :wallbash:

Playing Alpha 2, I see you've got it right, Not to report that there is something wrong, since this is my first game with the new version, but I just spawned as Spain, and it appears that France has collapsed, Calais is there, it's usually replaced by Boulogne which I am now seeing the ruins of. I'm guessing Burgundy declared for no good reason, razed boulogne, and collapsed France. Or maybe Louis XIV died of a heart attack upon seeing Yaroslav's green eye shadow. I almost did. :lol: I like the new leaderheads, especially Charles V, all except for Gustavus, who also enjoys applying vibrant makeup to his eyes before diplomatic meetings.
Well I'm going to finish this game, meanwhile I'll mull over this amazing idea I've got and think of how this could work. I'm really excited about this. :D:D:D
EDIT: Pope Winston I needs a neck of some form don't you think?

A quick report on playing as the Arabs in the new alpha2 version. Each crusade has now got a couple of catapults and a trebuchet but it really made little difference. By the time the first one arrived I had built walls, castle, manor house and the Krak des Chevaliers in Al Qods (+160% defence) and had 5 arbelests, 4 guisarmes, 2 macemen and 2 trebuchets in place. The trebuchets damaged their stack, their lancers and knights committed harikari and I mopped up their footsoldiers with macemen. I also had macemen in nearby cities who took care of any stragglers. Every time the Pope announced another crusade I was ready for them. By 1260 all 5 crusades were spent. And Burgundy never even got to lead a crusade at all.
Thanks 3Miro for the cannon fodder. My brave Islamic warriors are now fully battle-hardened.:lol:

I think the crusades are one of the most difficult parts to balance for both the AI and the human player, if we don't want to have different tags like: if iHuman = Arabia and iAI = crusader then the crusaders get more units. Maybe we should take a look at the Better AI mod. I've never played it myself so I cannot judge the differences (that's because I only play RFC(E);)), but it seems that these guys have done a nice job in some important combat parts.

[OT]: I've got my exam results yesterday and I can happily say that I've passed all of them.:D Especially English went really well (8.3 in a scale from 1 to 10), which is probably related to my "wasted" time here at CFC. Thank you very much!:D

IMO the corporation headquarters are too small. The should be about 2 times bigger than they are now. (its the old version, so it could be "fixed" in the new version)

And I know I had a lot of wonders in the city.

Custom leaderheads are a pain. I will see what I can do about the eye shadows.

What is challenging for the Human is impossible for the AI. Jessiecat, reverse the side of the Crusade and play with a Catholic nation and go for the Crusade. You will see how different all this is. Also, if I give more siege units, a good human will still defend well, however, the AI used to conquer Jerusalem on every Crusade (that is crusade - conquer - loose - crusade again).

I will look at the unit graphics.

The 2nd UHV of Byzantium doesn't work. It's 1220 or something and it says in 1200. Or is this again that the Civilopedia says it wrong.

BTW, the Civilopedia still says the Kievan should have 8 grains.

Edit: Never mind, I looked wrong.

EDIT: moved it to the civ discussion thread

I played as Burgandy and led the crusade. On 1st, Arabia collapsed right AT the turn I arrived, so Jerusalem became indy city, and my army automatically teleported to Anatolia, near Tarsus (I had OB with Byzantium), thus I conquered indy Tarsus, Sour, Damascus, Jerusalem all the way.

After a while, Arabia respawned. Right at that turn, the Pope called for 2nd crusade. I led again. 2 turns later, I recaptured Jerusalem using my remaining force. One turn later system message appeared: "The crusaders had chosen our beautiful city of Jerusalem as their target......" 3 turns later, my lovely force arrived near already my Jerusalem. I happily sent them to Sour.

About -1 turn issue, as Venetian and Spainish, I had to build my first city at the first turn, otherwise I won't get workers. Can you fix this? I want to settle Pola (EE of Venezia) on 2nd turn and still get workers.

I played as Burgandy and led the crusade. On 1st, Arabia collapsed right AT the turn I arrived, so Jerusalem became indy city, and my army automatically teleported to Anatolia, near Tarsus (I had OB with Byzantium), thus I conquered indy Tarsus, Sour, Damascus, Jerusalem all the way.

After a while, Arabia respawned. Right at that turn, the Pope called for 2nd crusade. I led again. 2 turns later, I recaptured Jerusalem using my remaining force. One turn later system message appeared: "The crusaders had chosen our beautiful city of Jerusalem as their target......" 3 turns later, my lovely force arrived near already my Jerusalem. I happily sent them to Sour.

Hm, so what if Jerusalem changes ownership during the time the Crusaders are traveling. I did not think of that. I will fix it.

Hey what about this one turn issue, it consistently happens to me that I lose a turn when I load Spain. What's up with that?

Playing a game as the Arabs, it appears that the Byzantine UP is now bugged. While they have lost two cities to independence, both of these were cities founded after their spawn. All three originally Byzantine cities in Anatolia--Sinope, Caesarea and Iconium--have not declared independence at all despite it being almost 1100. (I captured all other Byzantine-spawn cities that are outside of their stable zone.) I suspect the expansion in the revealed map zone has included all founded-at-start Byzantine cities in their no-collapse UP.

Playing a game as the Arabs, it appears that the Byzantine UP is now bugged. While they have lost two cities to independence, both of these were cities founded after their spawn. All three originally Byzantine cities in Anatolia--Sinope, Caesarea and Iconium--have not declared independence at all despite it being almost 1100. (I captured all other Byzantine-spawn cities that are outside of their stable zone.) I suspect the expansion in the revealed map zone has included all founded-at-start Byzantine cities in their no-collapse UP.

The no collapse zone did not change. The independence mechanics are so that only one city can declare independence every so often. If the Byzantines have extra cities and they have declared independence it simply is not Caesarea's turn yet (it is somewhat random).

Report from another Venice attempt (bugs and odds)
1) Since the Pope cannot capture cities (?), what is the role of this army outside Milano?
2) The strange thing is the foreign stability (2 stars), while I have only DoWed two indies (Ragusa, Milano). Do indies DoWs count as hit to stability?

On a sidenote:
3) Some really clever city placement from the Spanish (How will you build a work boat to get the AA?) :rolleyes:

And, as regards the Pope, shouldn't he be able to get cities by diplo (Avignon in real life) ?

EDIT: I forgot to tell that, IMHO, Hungary starts underpowered. One more settler (or two more and one-two techs less) would suit better to me.

Report from another Venice attempt (bugs and odds)
1) Since the Pope cannot capture cities (?), what is the role of this army outside Milano?
2) The strange thing is the foreign stability (2 stars), while I have only DoWed two indies (Ragusa, Milano). Do indies DoWs count as hit to stability?

On a sidenote:
3) Some really clever city placement from the Spanish (How will you build a work boat to get the AA?) :rolleyes:

And, as regards the Pope, shouldn't he be able to get cities by diplo (Avignon in real life) ?

EDIT: I forgot to tell that, IMHO, Hungary starts underpowered. One more settler (or two more and one-two techs less) would suit better to me.

1) Alpha 2 still had some warmongering Papal bugs. Those should be fixed for the next version.
2) Sedna had some changes on the stability and something doesn't work properly. (did you loose many battles BTW)
3) AI enough said? The AI cannot see AA until later anyway.

The pope should not be able to get cities by diplomacy. You can easily end up with a huge Papal empire (since he is immune to war).

2) Sedna had some changes on the stability and something doesn't work properly. (did you loose many battles BTW)


Two during the siege of Milano.

Hungary (Alpha1):
Orthodoxy spreads fast to me (river traderoute to byzanz), but then papal missionaries came and spread catholicism, good job on the missionaries! Was nice to have 2 religions in almost every city in the beginning, never choose a statereligion as i was on the way to free religion (got it in 1245, beelines divine right and built the golden bull and magna carta).

Conquered Poland and Austria, the 2nd and 3rd UHV were pretty easy. I was only a few turns away from Industrial Revolution when i won in 1650.

Two strange things:
- Bulgaria and some other civs never improved their horse resources (or very late)
- Byzanz spammed guisearms, i counted more then 70 of them running around in the area i had visibility.

Some map things: Prag and Gdansk lack food, maybe move the deer near Prag to southeast ans the fish near Gdansk south. I think its not good if you have to raze these cities and rebuild them one tile away to get a better city.



Spain (Alpha2)
The 909 spawn date is better, now it realy feels like a Requoncista, mine lasted from 1190 till 1290. then i owed 12 cities in Iberia with only catholicism. I also settled Sicily and built all colonies and almost all wonders. I just had to avoid teching printing press for a long time, till England founded 'Protestantism in ~1450. The UHVs could be a lot earlier, i even had my 3 colonies before 1500.

I finished the tech tree in 1564! (~4k :science: @100% with +400 :gold: due to corps and resource trades)
I never was this fast, with all other civs it was always between 1650 and 1700 till IR. Got to industrial Rev #15 in the end.

I spent the rest of the time till victory with piracy (sunk about 300 ships) and trying to get Rome to a high pop (gifted the pope a few health resources -> size 15 rome, instead of the usual 8)
At the end i had 4 Vasalls (Genoa, Venice, Turkey, Netherlands) and 2 DP (Byzanz, Kiev).


Map: There are almost too many plain hills around Toledo, spain is the windhill-country anyway(most places have to few food to work mines), but around Toledo its too much, there are almost only plain hills.

Edit: A graphic bug: Polands small Leaderhead is a big building :)

- Bulgarian AI needs a lot of improvement.
- Spain gets kind of OP after conquering all of Iberia.
- The tech rate should be decreased for everyone (maybe the Worker rate too).

- Polish leaderhead bug will be fixed for alpha 3

I looked around on Civfanatics and found these for the Austrian Leaderhead.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=294764

Btw, you should adjust the setInitialBuilding for Spain and Moscow for their new spawn dates (nothing for Spain and Moscow like Turkey and Sweden) (RCFEBalance.py, line 214+)

I dont think the free buildings were the reason for my overpowered spanish game but it still was a big advantage compared to other civs who are getting no buildings.

I looked around on Civfanatics and found these for the Austrian Leaderhead.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=294764

Francis is somewhat late, but we may add him due to a lack of leaderheads. Joseph is outside the time period (Leopold would have been great, but unless we rename Francis, there is no Leopold's head).

PS do I need a FileFront account to download this file?

Btw, you should adjust the setInitialBuilding for Spain and Moscow for their new spawn dates (nothing for Spain and Moscow like Turkey and Sweden) (RCFEBalance.py, line 214+)

I dont think the free buildings were the reason for my overpowered spanish game but it still was a big advantage compared to other civs who are getting no buildings.

Noted, will be fixed.

Francis is somewhat late, but we may add him due to a lack of leaderheads. Joseph is outside the time period (Leopold would have been great, but unless we rename Francis, there is no Leopold's head).

PS do I need a FileFront account to download this file?

I just found them and I was too lazy to do some searching:sad:.

I don't know, I don't think so.

I just finished my Byzantium game. Here are the comments:

- I was pretty stable for the Byzantians. It was going up and down between -20 to +10. At the end (1500) I was +8.
- The 1st UHV was pretty difficult, but I got it. Around 100 more :culture: than Rome in 1000 AD.
- The 2nd UHV was very easy. The Arabs declared war to me a few turns after their spawn, but because I was more powerfull, I signed peace early.
- The 3rd UHV wasn't hard either. About 1300 I reduced my :science: to 10% and got about +500:gold:/turn. About 1500 I had +650:gold:/turn. In 1500 I had about 27000:gold:, Rome had almost 19000:gold:.
- Now the tech-rate is slowed down, Sweden is (nearly) always the founder of Protestantism.
- Burgundy had cities allover Europe. Like Belgrad, a city near Kiev, and some more.
- Norse had settled allover Sweden, so Sweden could get (if I played longer) about 4 cities at the spawn and the Norse were left with just 2 cities.

Francis is somewhat late, but we may add him due to a lack of leaderheads. Joseph is outside the time period (Leopold would have been great, but unless we rename Francis, there is no Leopold's head).

PS do I need a FileFront account to download this file?

I think there's some confusion here. There never was a Francis I of Austria. That leaderhead is of Francis I of France (1515-1547) who is considered France's greatest Renaissance monarch.
One solution would be to use that leaderhead as Philip the Bold of Burgundy (1342-1404) and give the Charles V leaderhead to Austria and renaming him as Maximilian I (1459-1519). Both would be more accurate and look more authentic IMO.
The Francis I leaderhead (below) is a ZIP file. I've also found another good looking LH which is actually Christian IV of Denmark (1577-1648) but could be used for anyone of that period. Its in the Civ4 Downloads Database/ Leaderheads/Page 2.

I just finished my Byzantium game. Here are the comments:

- I was pretty stable for the Byzantians. It was going up and down between -20 to +10. At the end (1500) I was +8.
- The 1st UHV was pretty difficult, but I got it. Around 100 more :culture: than Rome in 1000 AD.
- The 2nd UHV was very easy. The Arabs declared war to me a few turns after their spawn, but because I was more powerfull, I signed peace early.
- The 3rd UHV wasn't hard either. About 1300 I reduced my :science: to 10% and got about +500:gold:/turn. About 1500 I had +650:gold:/turn. In 1500 I had about 27000:gold:, Rome had almost 19000:gold:.
- Now the tech-rate is slowed down, Sweden is (nearly) always the founder of Protestantism.
- Burgundy had cities allover Europe. Like Belgrad, a city near Kiev, and some more.
- Norse had settled allover Sweden, so Sweden could get (if I played longer) about 4 cities at the spawn and the Norse were left with just 2 cities.

Did you ever collapse?
How many cities did you lose to indy-flipping?
What was the overall stability like?

@Jessiecat: or just give the Charles V leaderhead to Spain... :)

Did you ever collapse?
How many cities did you lose to indy-flipping?
What was the overall stability like?

@Jessiecat: or just give the Charles V leaderhead to Spain... :)

Isabella will not be pleased with you.:(

It would solve so many problems if we could just have 2 leaderheads for some civs and not others. Charles V could be thought of as the greatest monarch Spain has ever had, or was it Phillip II...? :(

Did you ever collapse?
How many cities did you lose to indy-flipping?
What was the overall stability like?


In the beginning Cyrene declared indipendendce. (I wanted that so that doesn't mind.)
Later I gave Alexandria to the Arabs. The Bulgarians collapsed and I got Preslav by culture. Varna a bit later but I refused. I build Antaleia just before the mongols came and razed my cities in the Turkish spawn zone. (I was pretty stable at that time I wasn't unstable afterwards.)
My stability was all between -20 to +10. But most time around -10. (flat stability)

Ok, I'm trying to think of ways to increase stability to actually allow some expansion for them, I had this idea to have a couple of cities in Italy, Spain and North Africa flip to Byzantium on the turn after, to simulate the conquests of Belisarius, and increase expansion stability a little. Just wondering if that would help anything.

Ok, I'm trying to think of ways to increase stability to actually allow some expansion for them, I had this idea to have a couple of cities in Italy, Spain and North Africa flip to Byzantium on the turn after, to simulate the conquests of Belisarius, and increase expansion stability a little. Just wondering if that would help anything.


I think Byzantium gets about -15 stability each city if you include that. And why would you just get cities with doing nothing while it's representing a conquest?

You cannot code individual cities flipping, only the core region. Cities will not flip to Byzantines unless they are in the Core area and you cannot make all of Mediterranean as their core (remember cities in the Byzantine core do not flip away).

I think they already have too many cities, the maintenance cost for more cities to the west will kill them. If you wish to test it, start with the Byzantines and on the first turn add a few cities. Then watch the economy collapse.

Just as a boost to stability that the Byzantines need, the current gameplay for that civ is pretty much just construction and trying desperately to keep it together. I'm thinking some flips early in the game will give the Byzantine player the freedom to make some moves towards conquering Italy, the islands, and part of Spain, as Belisarius did. Maybe just Neapolis would flip, with some swordsmen, archers, and galleys, then the goal would be to capture Milan to the North, maybe an indy we could place in Sicily, and Valencia.

It was just an idea to give Byzantium a little military action, but ok

Just as a boost to stability that the Byzantines need, the current gameplay for that civ is pretty much just construction and trying desperately to keep it together. I'm thinking some flips early in the game will give the Byzantine player the freedom to make some moves towards conquering Italy, the islands, and part of Spain, as Belisarius did. Maybe just Neapolis would flip, with some swordsmen, archers, and galleys, then the goal would be to capture Milan to the North, maybe an indy we could place in Sicily, and Valencia.

It was just an idea to give Byzantium a little military action, but ok

For the Byzantines, we could change the Imperialism civic, it is practically useless now. I was thinking about giving +1 stability for cities outside the core, that will improve the Byzantine stability (and will make it the civic of choice for large empires)

Would that be added to the current benefit or replace it? I think the +2 stability for cities 15 tiles away is very useful

Would that be added to the current benefit or replace it? I think the +2 stability for cities 15 tiles away is very useful

When do you even found a city 15 tiles away. Other than the Norse no one else would (Arabia and Moscow may get couple of cities, but that would be all).

15 tiles from Lion is London, 15 tiles from Constantinople is Hungary. No player ever can benefit from such a situation (consider that compared to the -3 stability from the anarchy to switch civics).

Madrid to:
Santa Cruz de Tenerife, Naples, Milan, Siracuse, Bari, La Valeta (for strategic purposes), Amserdam, Antwerp. That's +16 stability, I think.
Paris to:
Not much
Frankfurt to:
Ok, I guess you're right

But a good idea would be reducing the distance to 10, and maybe including a bonus for colonies.

When do you even found a city 15 tiles away. Other than the Norse no one else would (Arabia and Moscow may get couple of cities, but that would be all).

15 tiles from Lion is London, 15 tiles from Constantinople is Hungary. No player ever can benefit from such a situation (consider that compared to the -3 stability from the anarchy to switch civics).

You're quite right. I like your idea. Are you able to code it so Imperialism gives extra stability anywhere outside the core area or would it be better to reduce the 15 tiles to less as Michael suggests?
BTW What do you think about my idea for the 2 leaderheads I posted (post1601)?

You're quite right. I like your idea. Are you able to code it so Imperialism gives extra stability anywhere outside the core area or would it be better to reduce the 15 tiles to less as Michael suggests?
BTW What do you think about my idea for the 2 leaderheads I posted (post1601)?

I got sidetracked a bit. I believe I will finally be able to complete the language pack and we will have Bulgarian for the next version.

I still need to work on Ivan IV and for the other leaderheads, I was thinking that if Charles V was made for Charles V then we should not change that. We could use the leaderheads that you posted for Austria and name them whatever is appropriate.

I will eventually try to play with the image files themselves (as opposed to just using other people's files), then I can do Leopold I based on Louis XIV.

What does "Control" a certain area for RFC europe mean? Tried to win the first uhv for turkey and controlled all of the cities in Anatolia and controlled Constantinople but still did not win the first one. Had assumed Control meant have the majority of all the cities. Does it mean i have to control all of the territory instead? Now Playing as arabia and got 1st uhv though controlled all of the territory in the given uhv. what do i have to control to win the third?
Also any chance of seeing more civs for RFC europe? Was thinking it would be nice to see germany replaced with prussia. In addtition an number of smaller states would also be nice to see. the Two sicilies, Moldova or wallacha, and maybe a north african arab state centered around tripoli or tunis, and a berber state to compete with colonizers of Morocco.

Control means "have all the cities", that is no one else has cities.

For Turkey you must have the control "in" the specific year (at least for the first two victories). That means capture and hold until the specified year, the victory will not register earlier.

More civs will not happen until 1.0, which is many months away.

So, I just played a test game as the Cordobans where I went into Worldbuilder and deleted Ragusa before the Venetians spawned. Lo and behold, the Venetians actually did something instead of turtling all game! They expanded to cover a lot of the eastern Mediterranean. Could we remove Ragusa from the game, or at least make it spawn late enough that it doesn't disrupt early Venetian expansion?

So, I just played a test game as the Cordobans where I went into Worldbuilder and deleted Ragusa before the Venetians spawned. Lo and behold, the Venetians actually did something instead of turtling all game! They expanded to cover a lot of the eastern Mediterranean. Could we remove Ragusa from the game, or at least make it spawn late enough that it doesn't disrupt early Venetian expansion?

I don't know why you say that. Ragusa doesn't prevent Venice from expanding. In every game I've played it gets captured by Venice, Hungary or Byzantium pretty early. If I play as Venice its my first priority after founding Zadar. We could put it in the Venetian spawn zone so it flips at the beginnning which might help but I really don't think that's necessary, for the human player anyway.

--> Imperialism: +1 stability from cities outside the core area is a good change.
--> Ragusa: When I play Venice I actually destroy the city and settle 2 cities near it, they get more resources and more production. Also, maybe we should test some games without Ragusa some more times, since it is usually well defended, sometimes they stay independent until the Renaissance era.

Playing Venice at Emperor, as always very peaceful, did not even take Ragusa in 1026
- around 880 The Pope conquers Napoli, later it was razed, razing was turned off
- Hungary only settles Pest and becomes a Vasall, 2 settlers, 2 archers and a skirmisher stand just right to Pest, only moved once
- 1026 Genoa converts to Islam
- Byzantium still has Cyrene, Alexandria, Singidunum (Hungary)
- Burgundy, Byzantium and Arabia Merchant Republics (maybe some more, not much contact to the west)

other games:
- started as Portugal, Spain neutral, Cordoba very small and no troops, maybe Toledo won
- barbs capture or raze everything in germany and around bulgaria
- france often neutral
- started as England, 2 french cities flip, reduced to Paris, declares war, Trebuchet in Boulogne and extra Cavalry make a very short war (i did not fight because there was really no point in playing that game)

For the Norse Lübeck is Kiel.

bye Myri

--> Imperialism: +1 stability from cities outside the core area is a good change.
--> Ragusa: When I play Venice I actually destroy the city and settle 2 cities near it, they get more resources and more production. Also, maybe we should test some games without Ragusa some more times, since it is usually well defended, sometimes they stay independent until the Renaissance era.

Again, why should we not have Ragusa or play without it? It's one of the most important cities in the area, a major Roman port and Venice's first really important colony. Maybe it misses the stone, but so what? Its not that bad a city. If the human player razes it, that's his choice. But well defended? Are you joking? Two archers and no walls?:lol:
And no way does it stop Venice from doing anything. If the AI is too stupid to attack it that's its fault. Better to make the AI more aggressive than get rid of it. As the only indy city on the Adriatic it has to stay. It's too important.

A more aggressive AI could help indeed then. I don't have so much historical knowledge, so I can't tell whether the city should be in or not. The problem is that Ragusa has archers on hills, and with a wall (cheap since Ragusa has plenty of production for an AI controlled city), these are not that easy to kill, especially when they are upgraded to Crossbowmen or Arbalests.

Also, I was just trying to suggest it since Verily said there was a difference. Since this is an alpha version, anything that could help gameplay should be tested by someone who wants to test it. I'm neutral about the city, gameplay should decide IMO.;)

I am trying to teach the AI to do early rushes and other things like that. I don't know if I will be successful.

Ragusa should be challenging to capture, it ruins the Venetian UHV and was indy for a looooong time (IIRC till 1400-1500)
@3Miro: You have become a maths professor, so teaching rushes should be much easier :lol:
Besides fun, now, making the AI rush may result in interesting results, ie an expanded
Bulgaria, Frankia or Poland
BTW: A possibly good scenario would be giving Frankia more starting forces and
Burgundy a more cultural orientation
And finally, any possibilities of integrating Better AI into the mod?

A more aggressive AI could help indeed then. I don't have so much historical knowledge, so I can't tell whether the city should be in or not. The problem is that Ragusa has archers on hills, and with a wall (cheap since Ragusa has plenty of production for an AI controlled city), these are not that easy to kill, especially when they are upgraded to Crossbowmen or Arbalests.

Also, I was just trying to suggest it since Verily said there was a difference. Since this is an alpha version, anything that could help gameplay should be tested by someone who wants to test it. I'm neutral about the city, gameplay should decide IMO.;)

I'm not trying to discourage anybody from playtesting in any way they see fit and I appreciate what you're saying about gameplay but one of the key features of this mod is its historical flavour. Part of that involves having a handful of pre-built cities in 500AD left over after the collapse of the Roman Empire. Key examples include York, Toledo, Valencia, Barcino, Marseilles, Milano, Rome, Napoli, Alger, Tunis and Ragusa. This is not including the eastern half of the Roman Empire which represented by the Byzantines. I do agree that there are too many pre-built in France and probably Russia too. But Ragusa is one city that is historically essential IMO.

Quick holland feedback:
I had a strange bug, i got only half the culture every turn.
With so litle culture, i couldnt even get the whole BFC of Amsterdam, never got control of the southwestern clam.

I got a -1 diplo malus from Venice for attacking an indipendent city.

Divine Monarchy has no We love the King message.

Papal razed Napoli, but that was a good thing, so Spain settled a city in southern Italy (Cosenza, 2 tiles southeast of Napoli, a lot better city) Spain also settled Sicily and in the replay i saw that they even had a city in Holland, which got autorazed at my spawn. Kiev was again one of the strongest civs, they rarely collapse due to mongols now.

The UHV are a bit more challenging then others, key was to get the +100% :gp: civic as fast as possible. Spain and France built the 3 African colonies, but noone built the Trading companies and the other colonies. If the AIs would do that, it would be realy tricky to get 3 colonies with so little production. Conquering the indipendent Stavanger helped me a lot!

Was short but fun to play, finished in 1735, one tech away from Industrial Revolution, the end techs should be a bit more expansive if the game is realy meant to be played till 1800.

You don't have to apologize, I wasn't upset or something.:) I'm also not saying that we absolutely should remove Ragusa from the game, just that we might consider it's strength for the sake of the Venetian AI if that could help. I've played a bit with the WB and I must admit that the independents do an excellent job in defending their cities. Lübeck for example had a tripple promoted city defending archer, with a combat strength of 9.00 and a first strike, without any defensive buildings; enough to survive anything until Amored Lancers. This could be a result of the free barbarian wins; all those Horse Archers provide lots of experience. Perhaps it's a solution to lower the experience cap of independents against barbarians to 5, or 2 (if it's possible of course)? Or would that make the independents too easy to conquer?

Forgot to upload the screenshot I wanted to post, so here it is. I put a Armored Lancer there, to see if it had a chance. There is also a fortified spearman in the city.

Forgot to upload the screenshot I wanted to post, so here it is. I put a Armored Lancer there, to see if it had a chance. There is also a fortified spearman in the city.

Wessel, I looked at the screen shot and I have some observations.

1. You should not expect to be able to conquer a city with a single unit. That was doable in some of the older test version, but it is bad gameplay.

2. The Armor Lancers are not a main city attack unit. You should have brought some catapults to a siege. If you remove the 20% defense bonus, you will be at an advantage.

3. You have the Armor Lancer, but the unit has no promotions. What about combat 1, from just a Barracks you can produce a unit that would have the edge in this battle. With a stable, you will shift the odds strongly in your favor. Also, a spearman would have no change with combat 1 + shock.

4. I have been thinking about reducing the city defense bonus for Crossbowman. It will not affect this battle, but it will affect others.

I know, but this was to illustrate the fact that these Archers (which became crossbowmen not long after that, with more defensive skills, but that's going to be fixed I see:)) are pretty strong. Maybe the AI should not capture the city soon, and of course I had to get more units (this is a WB screenshot, I'm not even at war with the independents), but it was to point out that the city is well defended.

I've continued the game a little, and Venetia conquered Athens! They were so suprised that they made peace and gave the city back.:lol:

Continuing my Venice game, issues:
1. Will something be done with the mined forests? Both normal and dense forests can be mined.
2. And also, shouldn't the player recieve negative bonuses for refusing to ''play a role of the schemes of a snake like the Pope'' ? (BTW this caption makes me laugh)

I know, but this was to illustrate the fact that these Archers (which became crossbowmen not long after that, with more defensive skills, but that's going to be fixed I see:)) are pretty strong. Maybe the AI should not capture the city soon, and of course I had to get more units (this is a WB screenshot, I'm not even at war with the independents), but it was to point out that the city is well defended.

I've continued the game a little, and Venetia conquered Athens! They were so suprised that they made peace and gave the city back.:lol:

In my present game as Venice I turned up with 2 catapults and 4 promoted macemen only to find that Ragusa had been razed by the Pope. What's with that? I think they had transported troops from Italy by ship. I thought that the Papacy wasn't supposed to leave Rome. But their armies are still roaming all over Western Europe. @3Miro Can't you stop this?:crazyeye:

1. The Pope declaring war on Indies was a bug, noted and should be fixed.

2. Nothing prevents the Pope's army from roaming Europe, which is fine, as long as they don't declare war to anyone.

3. Forested hills are supposed to be mined. That is a feature and not a bug.

4. There will be punishment for Crusade refusal. I have not implemented it yet. I will put diplomacy penalty for refusing.

5. I increased the archers defense, since they were useless against any other unit. With 2 - 3 lancers one could capture all the Indy cities in the world without resistance. Now Crossbows seem a bit OP however.

6. About the AI conquering Athens, well, AI says it enough?

Well, I suppose that AI actually means Artificial Idiotcy :lol:

Well, I suppose that AI actually means Artificial Idiotcy :lol:

Well we are trying for Artificial Intelligence, however, we get Actual Idiocy.

Do the barbarians raze too much? I always find they take all the crappy cities belonging to former Moscow/Kievan Rus and they raze extremely useful cities. I once saw the Keshiks raze Constantinople.

Are the barbarians going to be changed at all?

P.S. Once the Pope declared war on me. Will this be fixed?

Do the barbarians raze too much? I always find they take all the crappy cities belonging to former Moscow/Kievan Rus and they raze extremely useful cities. I once saw the Keshiks raze Constantinople.

Are the barbarians going to be changed at all?

P.S. Once the Pope declared war on me. Will this be fixed?

1. Barbs are Barbs, they conquer and they raze.

2. On which version was it that Keshiks made it to Constantinople.

PS Yes.

Alpha 3, Germany 939

barb count in germany, mostly near Lübeck:
3 archers
8 spearmen
1 axeman
18 horse archers

City placement does not look better, inland city instead of La Coruna, Venice only 1 city, Hunyadvar on the salt (but at least they founded a 2nd city), Drustar instead of Bulgarian coast, Malaqah instead of Cadiz, ...

Another game (Alpha 2) barbs conquered York, London and Southhampton, Queen fled to Caen.

Isn't it possible to script events if ai controlled, if human controlled, ...? Add crusaders (that should not cost upkeep) if a human defends Jerusalem, remove some barbs around ai controlled nations and something like that?

bye Myri

Just reporting my first Monarch UHV victory on the new Alpha3 version, playing as France. I knocked out Burgundy early capturing Dijon and razing Lyon (it was in a lousy spot). Founded Luxembourg to control the west bank of the Rhine. Captured Tours then Toulouse. Founded Bordeaux to block the Spanish. Founded Lyon in a better spot and captured Marseilles. Meanwhile Germany spawned and founded Basel. After a short war I captured that and they capitulated. Controlled all of France for UHV1 before 1400. Expected Burgundy to respawn but they never did.
Starting building wonders in Paris and settling GAs. Had 15,000 culture by mid 1500's. That's too easy for a UHV. Should be 25,000. By the end of the game Paris had built 7 wonders and had 32,000 culture. Meanwhile I was only 3rd. in techs behind Arabia and England. By the time I built my trading companies Engand had built 2 colonies. But I caught up fast with research at 90%, 4 vassals, 2 DAs. Got my 3 colonies and a UHV victory in 1698. Could have built 2 more within 6 turns if I hadn't won first. To sum up, the first UHV is easy if you're aggressive. The 2nd. is too easy (should be 25,000 culture, as I said) and the 3rd. is a foregone conclusion once you start teching fast. But an enjoyable game nevertheless.
BTW @3Miro. There's a typo in the opening menu which made me laugh. Instead of requiring Spain to control Sardinia it says "Sardines". I know Michael would love to have Spain controlling everything but the sardine monopoly is a step too far IMO.:lol:

I'd like to see list, which civics accord. My stability sometimes is really critical, about -35 all together. I can balance it a bit with courthouses an d manor houses, but one revolution or something and my cities declare their independence :(

I will update the French UHV and fix the typo. Sorry I was tired when doing the code.

I will try to make a list for the civics and stability (BTW -30 is not due to civics).

Maybe it's just me, but the AI settling logic seems to have gotten a lot worse, not better, with the new code. The Burgundians and French have adopted ICS as their settling strategy in a new start I just rolled as the Cordobans.

Also, there's a huge bug in the Cordoban UHV: I lost the third UHV condition some time before 950 even though it's not supposed to trigger until 1490.

Here's a screenshot. Everyone is using ICS now. Go back to the old formula.

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/4728/icschaos.png (http://img193.imageshack.us/i/icschaos.png/)

Here's a screenshot. Everyone is using ICS now. Go back to the old formula.

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/4728/icschaos.png (http://img193.imageshack.us/i/icschaos.png/)

I don't understand what you mean. What is ICS?:confused:

Infinite City Sprawl, aka REX.

ICS = *tries to find the 200 pages long Vanilla manual* --> Infinite City Sprawl, the tactic of packing cities as close to each other as possible; this was a common tactic in previous versions of Civilization. Amiens, Paris, Avrances and Caen; Dijon and Geneve and another city that is only visible on the mini-map; Frankfurt, Mannheim and Rothenfurt are much too close to each other. It seems that the civs in eastern Europe do a much better job, although I can't judge that right from that picture. Also, I have the feeling that the tweaks haven't made the AI worse (since each city has on it's own a good deal of resources), but that there is no corporation between the cities. 3Miro, if you want to, could you please share us what you've tweaked?:)

Well, I love whatever tweaks you've made to the AI. Playing as Emperor with Portugal, the AI was so nice to me that I was given Civil Service by Burgundy and Optics by France. (Maybe the fact that I basically did the Reconquista helped) Keep them coming. :)

- Increased the AI danger awareness range, the AI should no longer lose Workers to Skirmishers and Horse Archers (as often)

2 times Burgund moved workers close to a pillaging guisarme; on the iron near Dijon with many defensive troops in Dijon my guisarme would never have killed in forest/hill.

bye Myri

I hope everyone realizes how hard tweaking the AI is. Supposedly, the AI checks if a tile is in danger by an enemy unit and then moves the workers away form that tile. In Civ IV and RFC the radius is 2, in RFCE now the radius is 3. The workers used to be helpless against movement 3 units. I don't know why isn't always working, I will have to do more digging. A savegame right before the AI misbehaves will be nice.

The city cluster: when the AI evaluates a city placement location, it thinks about the tiles it can possibly work (in the Big Fat Cross). If a number of tiles is already taken by another city/civilization, the AI doesn't settle there. The default value for RFC is 2/3 of a BFC and in Civ IV is something like 1/3. We used 1/3 as the default for RFCE because of the larger territory, however, it worked against some civs.

1/3 for Bulgaria is very bad, there is very little good land and Bulgaria doesn't settle more than 3 - 4 cities, with 2/3 they have 5 - 6 and are strong enough to challenge Byzantium at least for Adrianopolis. 2/3 seemed to help Spain too, since they are also squeezed by the Cordoban culture.

On the other hand 1/3 helped Venice settle not right off the starting location, but lower at Zara (which is a much better spot).

I thought it might help others, such as France, Germany and England. If 2/3 doesn't work for those nations, I can put them back to 1/3 (spread out).

Spreading out for Moscow and Kiev makes sense, so I did not change those.

Cordoba on Alpha 3. I failed UHV#3 (4 cities in Iberia and NW Africa) at about AD 970...... and it says 14xx or 15xx. Please check this bug.

Cordoba on Alpha 3. I failed UHV#3 (4 cities in Iberia and NW Africa) at about AD 970...... and it says 14xx or 15xx. Please check this bug.

I found a bug, that wrongfully associated UHV 3 with the old UHV (be the first to get the scientific method), but that should not happen in 970.

3 comments:

1. The Scottish/Welsh barbarians probably should be toned down. In my last Portuguese game, the English were killed fairly soon after their spawn by the numerous barbs, which helped me (because other than France and Spain they were the only one with Atlantic access)

2. Can we give the colonizing civs like Genoa, Venice, Spain, Portugal, England and Spain free harbors after Astronomy is discovered? It would help a lot (especially in emperor mode)

3. Arabia tends to collapse a lot which makes Turkey get cities with Orthodox Christianity. There were absolutely no Crusades in my game because Arabia has already collapsed by the time I spawn and never did respawn. I'm sure they died because of the numerous barbs. Another reason to tone down the barbs...

I have never seen Arabia collapse. I will check it out. I have not seen England collapse either.

Do those civs build harbors after astronomy, the harbors in RFC were designed for the cities in the new world.

Can you clarify the difficulty level at which you are playing?

I'm playing emperor. From my last Arabian emperor game, there were about 24 Seljuks and about 12 Mongols coming from northeastern Asia Minor. The former could be easily killed by defending spearmen, the latter needed arbalests.

The free harbors I think would be useful for quickly growth of the island colonies (Crete, Azores, Sicily included).

Also, the 10% decrease in tech makes emperor impossible for some civs (England is especially glaringly impossible, with Scientific Method costing well over 30000 beakers).

I'm playing emperor. From my last Arabian emperor game, there were about 24 Seljuks and about 12 Mongols coming from northeastern Asia Minor. The former could be easily killed by defending spearmen, the latter needed arbalests.

The free harbors I think would be useful for quickly growth of the island colonies (Crete, Azores, Sicily included).

Also, the 10% decrease in tech makes emperor impossible for some civs (England is especially glaringly impossible, with Scientific Method costing well over 30000 beakers).

The amount of the barbs and naturally the tech cost depends on the difficulty level. We try to balance everything for Monarch and just like RFC, not every nation will be possible to get UHV. I can nerf the Monarch vs Emperor tech penalty, this will make all techs cheaper under Emperor.

About the 3rd Cordoban UHV:
It fails right after u end ur first turn, cause i think the if check in python is wrong. It checks for the year AND the conditions in one if case, so if either one isn't done the UHV will be set to failed. And this happen in ur very first turn cause the if returns false.

About the 3rd Cordoban UHV:
It fails right after u end ur first turn, cause i think the if check in python is wrong. It checks for the year AND the conditions in one if case, so if either one isn't done the UHV will be set to failed. And this happen in ur very first turn cause the if returns false.

Just to confirm. I just had the same thing. The 3rd Cordoban UHV doesn't register. It just says NO in 1491.
I've included the saved game for 1488 below.

Question: how does civics affect stablility? Where's the chart?

I think English on Emperor is possible, I am going to develop a stregedy.

I think English on Emperor is possible, I am going to develop a stregedy.

Just make sure it's not a tragedy.:lol:

About the 3rd Cordoban UHV:
It fails right after u end ur first turn, cause i think the if check in python is wrong. It checks for the year AND the conditions in one if case, so if either one isn't done the UHV will be set to failed. And this happen in ur very first turn cause the if returns false.

You were right. It has been fixed.

Question: how does civics affect stablility? Where's the chart?

I think English on Emperor is possible, I am going to develop a stregedy.

There is no chart per say, you have to look in python (stability.py in RFCEurope\Assets\Python)

I've just finished my Genoan game. Here are the notes:

- Cyrene and Alexandria stayed Byzantian for a long time. (untill 1200 - 1300)
- A farm was build on the mud near Alexandria.:confused:
- Kievan Rus had a large empire but collapsed when the Mongols arrived.
- The 1st UHV says in 1570 but it registers it in 1540. Although it was easy. The only problem could be Cyprus, but Larnaka (Arabia) declared independent. So I razed it and build Nicosia.
- The 2nd UHV was very easy. I founded 3 corporations (Knights Templar, Hanseatic League and Augsburg Families) in Genoa. The banks were easy too. IMO their should be a time limit for this UHV. Then you will have to research Banking and build the banks earlier.
- The 3rd UHV was also very easy. In 1640 the only Civs who hadn't OB with me were: Arabia, Cortoba and Turkey.
- I had 4 Vassals. (Austria, Venezia, Hungaria and the Norse) France would become one too, but they had war and I wanted to stop that first and then vassalage him, but the same turn the Norse wanted to be my Vassal and I agreed. They were my 4th Vassal so their was no room left for France.:(
- Why does the Civilopedia says the English needs 5 colonies instead of 3 like the others Civs?

I've just finished my Genoan game. Here are the notes:

- Cyrene and Alexandria stayed Byzantian for a long time. (untill 1200 - 1300)
- A farm was build on the mud near Alexandria.:confused:
- Kievan Rus had a large empire but collapsed when the Mongols arrived.
- The 1st UHV says in 1570 but it registers it in 1540. Although it was easy. The only problem could be Cyprus, but Larnaka (Arabia) declared independent. So I razed it and build Nicosia.
- The 2nd UHV was very easy. I founded 3 corporations (Knights Templar, Hanseatic League and Augsburg Families) in Genoa. The banks were easy too. IMO their should be a time limit for this UHV. Then you will have to research Banking and build the banks earlier.
- The 3rd UHV was also very easy. In 1640 the only Civs who hadn't OB with me were: Arabia, Cortoba and Turkey.
- I had 4 Vassals. (Austria, Venezia, Hungaria and the Norse) France would become one too, but they had war and I wanted to stop that first and then vassalage him, but the same turn the Norse wanted to be my Vassal and I agreed. They were my 4th Vassal so their was no room left for France.:(
- Why does the Civilopedia says the English needs 5 colonies instead of 3 like the others Civs?

- Do you have a save with the farm on the mud?
- Kiev is supposed to collapse.
- Genoa's first UHV is 1540, the other one was a typo
- Genoa fails the UHV is all corps are founded, but we can put a year. What would be appropriate?
- The English need become the largest colonial power, so they need a lot of colonies.

Its a floodplain mud, you can build a farm or a watermill there, but no cottage.
There is a plain floodplain too, an awesome tile :)

- Do you have a save with the farm on the mud?
- Kiev is supposed to collapse.
- Genoa's first UHV is 1540, the other one was a typo
- Genoa fails the UHV is all corps are founded, but we can put a year. What would be appropriate?
- The English need become the largest colonial power, so they need a lot of colonies.


- no
- ok
- ok
- Not much later when you can build Banks, so it become hard to build those in time. (that's what I mentioned). I don't know exactly what period that is.
- ok

Germany is way too underpowered!
I never saw a powerful Germany in my games...they alway have max 4-5 cityes and they never try to conquer Italy or Poland...but the most strange thing is that they never conquer the whole german territory. Where is the Holy Roman Empire?

Anyway I think I love you guys...this mod is gonna be fantastic! ;)

I agree in all the games I have played so, including my current Portuguese one far Germany either collapses or stays turtled to the south east and sometimes eventually fills in its modern borders. Noticed this with Spain and Cordoba as well, in my current game they were at constant warfare. I could see many Cordovan knights turtled and at one point Spain declared war on me and only fought when I invaded their territory though they could have overrun Porto with little difficulty. Spain has captured Barcelona (still hasn't gotten Pamplona) but refuses to expand in to Portugal or Andalusia.

AFAIK Germany DOESN'T represend the HRE but the German nation. The HRE will be something different.

In the alpha 3, I'm glad to see you increased some of the penalties to running Merchant Republic. I'll have to playtest some more, but in the past versions I could run sprawling empires of 10-20 cities under Merchant Republic and be stable or better due to the economic boon. Now my Hungarian empire collapsed 2 turns after switching to it. I'm not sure if it was size or civic combination yet.

Have you made any other changes to the civics recently?

AFAIK Germany DOESN'T represend the HRE but the German nation. The HRE will be something different.

Yeah but I mean...for most of the middle ages Germany WAS the HRE...only later the HRE became something different when the "german nation" collapsed into small indipendent länder.
I don't want germany to be the HRE by default...but I think that Germany should be a lot more powerful than it is now...especially in the high middle ages...

If you want Germany to be the real german nation then you should spawn it in 1860...

- no
- ok
- ok
- Not much later when you can build Banks, so it become hard to build those in time. (that's what I mentioned). I don't know exactly what period that is.
- ok

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but are you referring to banks or branches? The UHV requires that you build 8 Banks (or Mint in the case of Genoa), ie banks in 8 cities. For that you need to have 8 cities. That means you have to research Banking pretty early because it takes a long time to build a bank(Mint) in a newly-found city. It doesn't refer to the number of branches of your corporations that you found outside the first one just by settling an executive. Maybe the UHV should say 8 Mints instead of Banks.
Just to clarify if there's been some misunderstanding.:)

I agree, Germany invariably collapses or becomes a vassal of Burgundy.

On another note, there's the case of the disappearing Temple Mount. Right after I chased the Jews out of Leon (which has Temple Mount), the Temple Mount disappears! And I can't rebuild it elsewhere (e.g. in Sicily). Maybe the Temple Mount should guarantee that Judaism can't be eradicated from it...and Spain should think twice about building it, at least not in Espana.

Another "bug" is that when Protestantism appears, having Theocracy does not protect some of your cities from going to the false faith.:mad: Thankfully I have La Palacio de Pena--and this is in emperor too. :lol:

I agree, Germany invariably collapses or becomes a vassal of Burgundy.

On another note, there's the case of the disappearing Temple Mount. Right after I chased the Jews out of Leon (which has Temple Mount), the Temple Mount disappears! And I can't rebuild it elsewhere (e.g. in Sicily). Maybe the Temple Mount should guarantee that Judaism can't be eradicated from it...and Spain should think twice about building it, at least not in Espana.

Another "bug" is that when Protestantism appears, having Theocracy does not protect some of your cities from going to the false faith.:mad: Thankfully I have La Palacio de Pena--and this is in emperor too. :lol:

What do you mean by protect? If you flip over to Protestantism, larger cities will retain Catholicism regardless of your civics.

I will have to see the effect of prosecution in the Temple Mount city.

So, in 1500, when Sweden spawns and by default founds Protestantism (since I chose not to research printing press first), 2 of my cities get Protestantism, even though I switched to Theocracy in 1497. Now that's a bug IMHO since Theocracy allows for no spreading of non-state religions.

In 1317 I built the Temple Mount. I went back to my save and gave myself an inquisitor; and sure enough, once it's used, Temple Mount and all Jewish Quarters disappear from other cities. This has got to be changed (wonders are not supposed to be destroyable).

If RFCE is using my Protestantism mod, that's happening because Protestantism doesn't "spread" to cities, as such - it appears only in established Catholic cities. I'm sure it's easy to stop the heresy in countries with Theocratic government, though. All it would require is a line or two of Python. Specifically, adding an if(not(active_civic=theocracy)) before the city conversion code, although I can't remember the exact details of how one would write it.

So, in 1500, when Sweden spawns and by default founds Protestantism (since I chose not to research printing press first), 2 of my cities get Protestantism, even though I switched to Theocracy in 1497. Now that's a bug IMHO since Theocracy allows for no spreading of non-state religions.

In 1317 I built the Temple Mount. I went back to my save and gave myself an inquisitor; and sure enough, once it's used, Temple Mount and all Jewish Quarters disappear from other cities. This has got to be changed (wonders are not supposed to be destroyable).

Why, what is the point of the prosecutors if you cannot get foreign religion in your cities. Protestants will force spread once and afterwards Theocracy will block them. Use prosecutors.

I will fix the wonder thing.

I have noticed that Hungary plays much better when given Beograd. I gave it to them at spawn and they ended with 6 well placed cities in 1200.

I have noticed that Hungary plays much better when given Beograd. I gave it to them at spawn and they ended with 6 well placed cities in 1200.

It is very ahistorical. Belgrade represents Serbia and in the early 10th century Serbs were under Bulgarian rule trying to gain independence. Hungary did not get a foothold on the Balkans until much later.

I agree that perhaps we should give Hungary an extra city. Also, if Belgrade is Barbarian, Hungary has to go after it from the start (with the initial forces).

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but are you referring to banks or branches? The UHV requires that you build 8 Banks (or Mint in the case of Genoa), ie banks in 8 cities. For that you need to have 8 cities. That means you have to research Banking pretty early because it takes a long time to build a bank(Mint) in a newly-found city. It doesn't refer to the number of branches of your corporations that you found outside the first one just by settling an executive. Maybe the UHV should say 8 Mints instead of Banks.
Just to clarify if there's been some misunderstanding.:)


I accualy meant Mints instead of branches. So with the time limit, you indeed have to hurry for the cities and build banks (Mints).
But some other thing. Is their a better art and name for the Mint. I like its bonus but the art needs to be changed.

I was thinking a late game road upgrade with civil engineering would be useful. Metalled roads refers to carefully engineered gravel roadways compacted so the angular stones lock together into a smoother more permanent roadway. In 1764 Frenchman Pierre-Marie-Jerome Tresaguet invented a three layer method to road building of a heavy stone foundation under smaller rounded stones under broken gravel. In the early 1820's Scotsman John McAdam make roads like this cheaper by removing the need for the flat stone foundation.

It could use the modern era road graphics, and of course it wouldn't be as fast as any railroad. Plus I just don't like civil engineering having nothing but Virginia.

I was thinking a late game road upgrade with civil engineering would be useful. Metalled roads refers to carefully engineered gravel roadways compacted so the angular stones lock together into a smoother more permanent roadway. In 1764 Frenchman Pierre-Marie-Jerome Tresaguet invented a three layer method to road building of a heavy stone foundation under smaller rounded stones under broken gravel. In the early 1820's Scotsman John McAdam make roads like this cheaper by removing the need for the flat stone foundation.

It could use the modern era road graphics, and of course it wouldn't be as fast as any railroad. Plus I just don't like civil engineering having nothing but Virginia.

With the new colonies Civil Engineering will enable 2 colonies AFAIK. BUt you're right. It should have another benefit. Instead of better roads, I'd be in favour of more modern fortifications esp. against field artillery.:)

With the new colonies Civil Engineering will enable 2 colonies AFAIK. BUt you're right. It should have another benefit. Instead of better roads, I'd be in favour of more modern fortifications esp. against field artillery.:)

We can give generic +1 road movement for regular roads. I don't think any road of the time was fast enough to make as rail road.

lol I just saw two workers and a carrack with the formation promotion...I think there is something wrong with the swedish UP XD

lol I just saw two workers and a carrack with the formation promotion...I think there is something wrong with the swedish UP XD

It takes extra work to make the promotion only for specific set of units. It has no effect on workers and ships anyway.

haha yeha...it just made me laugh XD

Just finished Venice (or should I say Aquileia, since I didn't found Venice which overlaps too much with Florence and Fiume, and it's just too far from the wine and iron 3N of it) in 1147 in emperor. It's way too easy.

1. All the criteria are "by"
2. Florence, Milan, Ragusa and Napoli are not defended by indys well enough
3. I thought that I had to control 8 different luxury items, when it's only 8 luxury items which can be the same. I had fur, 5 or 6 wines, dye from Rhodes, silk from Byzantium, gold from somebody else. I was all set to go hunt for some elephants and silver and even some sugar or coffee in the tropical islands when the 3rd criteria registered together with the 1st one. I would suggest making a list of what luxury items are, and making the requirement of 8 SEPARATE items as the 3rd goal. (Are elephants considered luxury since you can't build war elephants now?)
4. Rhodes needs to be majorly buffed up. Since it was occupied by the Knights Hospitaller, maybe give them one or 2 so that it won't be so easy to conquer.
5. The 2 Catholic missionaries are useless, because if you don't spread it, Rome is so near that you'll inevitably get it. I would eliminate them and give Venice an extra archer instead.

- Venice starting location needs improvement
- I will see about the resources, we can make it either 8 different ones or bump up the number
- Ivory is a lux resource
- The missionaries were in there to ensure Venice was Catholic from the start before he had semi-adequate Rome.

Civil Engineering: +5 stability points?

Civil Engineering: +5 stability points?

What do you mean?

A question to our playtesters about "ideal" city locations:
- Is it better to have Edinburgh and Inverness 4 north of that city, or just one city NNE of Edinburgh, that catches all important resources (except for Iron) in the area and is on a river too?
- Is it better to found Antwerp and Groningen, or just Amsterdam, or Amsterdam and Groningen? In case that you are the French / Burgundians / Germans or when the Dutch have the luck to decide where to settle.
- Is it better to raze Prague and rebuild the city 1 NE, or just leave the city where it is?
- Is it better to raze Liubice and rebuild the city 1 W, or just leave the city where it is? Side note on that: as the Norse I'd indisputably go for option 1, since I never build Copenhagen, but rather a city on the southwestern tip of Sweden and a city on the forrest north of the copper. I have to be lucky then, since that possibility is not guaranteed.
- As Burgundy, is it better to capture Milan or raze it and rebuild it anywhere on a river? 1 (S)SW could be a nice candidate, it doesn't flip to Genoa and even better, their units flip to Pisa.
- Is it better to settle Burdundy on it's starting location, 1 S or even 1 SSW? The latter one requires to skip Lyon but it's resources are in Besancon's BFC anyway.
- In general, is it better to get more resources, or get acces to a river and ideally sea access? I've been struggling with these questions for some time now and I'd like to hear your opinions about it.

What's the new music for the Hungarians in Alpha 3? And on that note, the new menu music? Both sound amazing!

What's the new music for the Hungarians in Alpha 3? And on that note, the new menu music? Both sound amazing!

The Hungarian music is from a Magyar mod and some Hungarian friends helped us include it (along with the leaderhead for Istvan and Magyar speech for the units).

The opening menu music is Bulgarian that I picked. Rhye's song is great, but I wanted to give the mod more of a medieval feel, as well as to distinguish it from Rhye's work. Great as Rhye's work is, I wanted people to know they are playing something different from the start.

I am glad you like it, you are the only one to comment on it so far.

The Hungarian music is from a Magyar mod and some Hungarian friends helped us include it (along with the leaderhead for Istvan and Magyar speech for the units).

The opening menu music is Bulgarian that I picked. Rhye's song is great, but I wanted to give the mod more of a medieval feel, as well as to distinguish it from Rhye's work. Great as Rhye's work is, I wanted people to know they are playing something different from the start.

I am glad you like it, you are the only one to comment on it so far.

Interesting choice of music. Is it different for every civ? I've never commented as I've always kept the sound switched off in any version of civ I ever played. I guess I'll have to listen to all the sounds now to find out what they're like.

Interesting choice of music. Is it different for every civ? I've never commented as I always keep the sound switched off in any version of civ I ever played. I guess I'll have to listen to all the sounds now to find out what they're like.

There are some common theme songs for most leaders (i.e. war drums upon declaration of war), however, some leaders have their own theme song. There are Native American, Egyptian, Middle Eastern, Far Eastern and so on theme. Istvan has a Magyar theme (quite cool actually).

What is the historic territory of France? Is it just mainland France? Does Corsice count? What about Algier and Tunis? I think, to play with France is so easy, that it should be the french condition to conquere these, too.
I just conquered the Burgundy on Monarch in the 8th Century. The Rest of the game is a fast-selling item

Once you collapse Burgundy, the rest is easy, since you 1) quickly capture indies 2) reclaim (or refuse spawn) of Caen and 3) make sure Genova doesnt build Nice

but what is the "historical territory"?

btw: is RFCE Multiplayer-compatible?

but what is the "historical territory"?

btw: is RFCE Multiplayer-compatible?

There is a folder in RFCEurope that is called Reference. Some of those territories and such are shown there. The territory is basically just that of mainland France, no islands.

RFCE does not support multiplayer and probably never will. There are way too many balancing issues to be worth coding.

There is a folder in RFCEurope that is called Reference. Some of those territories and such are shown there. The territory is basically just that of mainland France, no islands.

RFCE does not support multiplayer and probably never will. There are way too many balancing issues to be worth coding.

The only problem is that they are old. Like the territory UHV of the Genoans, some maps doesn't show the new UHVs.

The only problem is that they are old. Like the territory UHV of the Genoans, some maps doesn't show the new UHVs.

The UHV maps are not that old. Most of them are still accurate. This is the French one. Basically just west of the Rhine and the Alps and north of the Pyrennees.

A question to our playtesters about "ideal" city locations:
- Is it better to have Edinburgh and Inverness 4 north of that city, or just one city NNE of Edinburgh, that catches all important resources (except for Iron) in the area and is on a river too?
I had both scotish cities in my England game, Edinburgh is in a good position, its a waste to raze it.

- Is it better to found Antwerp and Groningen, or just Amsterdam, or Amsterdam and Groningen? In case that you are the French / Burgundians / Germans or when the Dutch have the luck to decide where to settle.
If Calais exists, Amsterdam is better on the sulphur then on the dye, its impossible to get the cultural control of the western clam. In general, there are enough resources for 2 cities, the best location depends on the surounding cities.

- Is it better to raze Prague and rebuild the city 1 NE, or just leave the city where it is?
Prag is in a very bad location, it lacks food and can only work farms and windmills. 1 tile NE is a LOT better, you get food and a lot more resources (and lesser peaks)
- Is it better to raze Liubice and rebuild the city 1 W, or just leave the city where it is? Side note on that: as the Norse I'd indisputably go for option 1, since I never build Copenhagen, but rather a city on the southwestern tip of Sweden and a city on the forrest north of the copper. I have to be lucky then, since that possibility is not guaranteed.
Cities on a river a far superoir then others (traderoutes, health, warf, levee). Razing Luebeck and rebuilding it 1 tile west gives a very good city.
- As Burgundy, is it better to capture Milan or raze it and rebuild it anywhere on a river? 1 (S)SW could be a nice candidate, it doesn't flip to Genoa and even better, their units flip to Pisa.
Never cared for Milan as Burgundy, there are enough good cities along the rhine valley.

- Is it better to settle Burdundy on it's starting location, 1 S or even 1 SSW? The latter one requires to skip Lyon but it's resources are in Besancon's BFC anyway.
The bonus buildings for rivers come late, so its not that important for Burgundy. Dijon in place still makes a very good city.

- In general, is it better to get more resources, or get acces to a river and ideally sea access? I've been struggling with these questions for some time now and I'd like to hear your opinions about it.
River and sea access are very valuable, especialy in late game. Coastal trade can get incredible high, especialy with Magellans Vovage. (7 Trade Routes, each 7-10 :commerce:) Most coastal cities get more commerce from trade routes then from worked tiles.

The problem with city razing is the stability penality and the very expansive settlers, so i often avoid to raze cities.


To the new music:
The hungarian one is great!
But i dont like the new title music. Its not only the music but also the volume. It starts very silent, so i have to turn my speakers to maximum so i can hear anything. Later on it gets very loud, so i have to turn them back if i dont want to wake up the neighbours. Thats not suited for a title music, i hope you can find something else (i replaced it with old RFC title song already)

Thanks for clarifying, that's exactly what I thought! I like the new music too, for the reason Feyaria mentions; I think it is in the spirit of the Middle Ages so that it's only good that the music becomes louder.

Thanks for clarifying, that's exactly what I thought! I like the new music too, for the reason Feyaria mentions; I think it is in the spirit of the Middle Ages so that it's only good that the music becomes louder.

I should make a poll to see if people like the new music or not. We now have 2 votes for and 1 against.

What do you mean?

How about: Anyone or the first to discover civil engneering get +2 to +5 stability, or reduce some civic penalties, or give a + stability wonder. Or no penalty in civic changes.

How about: Anyone or the first to discover civil engneering get +2 to +5 stability, or reduce some civic penalties, or give a + stability wonder. Or no penalty in civic changes.

I really don't follow how this relates to civil engineering. I will point out that there are temporary civic bonuses and penalties in RFC when you discover a new technology, and I think the niche you are trying to come up with would be filled by that. I'm not sure if those are already implemented in RFCE though.

In RFC some tech will provide a stability boost and others a stability penalty. That seems to cover Civil Engineering and others like that.

This, however, has not been implemented yet.

Germany:
First 2 UHVs are no problem, Burgundy was exapnding south and Austria, Portugal and Moscow vassaled peacefuly
But 3rd UHV is bugged, it should be in 1540, but in 1560 it still says not yet. (i have a save from 1538 if needed)
I have already double the military of the second, building Muskets and Landsknechts in almost all cities.

Another thing is the UP. I should get a 25% reduction on military production, but Landsknecht costs 112 :hammers: instead of the 100 listed in civilopedia. Looks more like an 12,5% increase.

More from the game:
Burgundy is tech leader with a lot of cities, including Toulouse, Marseilles, Barcelona and 3 in the Holy Land. In all my last games, Burgund seems more stable then France, and the two are almost never waring against each other. Burgundy also built most of the wonders. Burgundy and France were the only civs to switch to Protestantism, and soon after this, pope declaresa crusade against Burgundy. I thought this problem was fixed?

Plague is a big problem for the AIs, they seem to never replace died workers. In 1467, my vasall Austria has only 1 Worker for 3 cities, the iron and horse near Wien are not improved. The only Austrian Worker is changing an cottage to a workshop (stupid AI....)

Kazan and Samara not flipping to Moscow at the start leads to some random civ cpature them with a scouting unit, in this game it was Hungary and Spain.

All civs love each other too much now, never had so many at friendly, even orthodox byzanz was pleased. Even independents are liked by AI leaders, you get penalties for attacking friends and they refuse going war against indies (couldnt betray our close friends)

The German UP only kicks in after some tech (it say which one).

The costs in the Civilopedia are nowhere near accurate. Remember that each nations has unique modifiers, so no two nations have units that cost the same.

The German UP means that units after some tech get cheaper than they were before and overall German units will cost less than a nations that spawns roughly the same time with somewhat the same situation.

Example in RFC: the Greeks in RFC have a large boost to the number of GP they can summon, however, Americans pump GPs faster.

Burgundy held Jerusalem and that is why the Pope wanted it. I should force the Crusades to become obsolete after some year.

On the Worker: were the unimproved tiles close to an enemy border. The AI refuses to build improvements right next to the enemy border and that is regardless of the number of workers that it has.

I will see if I can make the AI want those random barbs less and also increase the "hatred" in the game.

Burgundy held Jerusalem and that is why the Pope wanted it. I should force the Crusades to become obsolete after some year.


Possibly you could obsolete crusades when the reformation happens, as that seems to be the opportunity to have a new type of religious conflict.

Along the same note, you should disable civilization respawns until a certain time. Maybe at the advent of Printing press (with the reformation) or with Liberalism. I think this point has been discussed before.

I agree with kbk. Right now, if you squash the Arabians (as Byzantines) or French (as Burgundy), all the indy cities which have never had any culture other than indy will flip to a respawn. (in fact, France respawned 2 turns after I conquered Paris, with 2 other cities).

The Byzantines really need an extra UP to make gameplay less tedious. As I pointed out before, after each declaration of independence and each reconquest, your expansion/economy/city stability all take hits, which ends up being a death spiral. I propose giving the Byzantines a big boost in stability (e.g. 10-15 points) with each reconquest of a city that has Byzantine culture. This will allow them to eventually become stable and don't have to conquer back cities. Right now all I can build is research in Antioch, Tarsus, Tyre and Jerusalem, and even Iconium flipped after my Orthodox Church was built (after 400 years)! After all, if you don't count the Cordobans, the Byzantine Empire was the most stable and powerful empire in Europe until Charlemagne, and the age of the Macedonian emperors could truly be called a golden age. The current game play does not reflect this.

Another solution would be to allow Code of Laws to enable a project that reflects Justinian's codification of Roman law. This project/wonder could either give a massive boost in stability (e.g. 50 points), or make declaration of independence much less likely. Since only Byzantium starts with Code of Laws, this will be historically accurate (i.e. France, Rome, Burgundy won't be able to build it), and Justinian's reign (in the 600's) would coincide with finishing of this project. (Of course the AI may chose to build something else and suffer the consequences.)
Nicaea is a misnomer (it's too far away from its historical position). May I suggest renaming it to Dorylaeum.

My fault on german UP, it works. Germany has a +50% modifier, and 150 - 25% = 112.5, just what i had in costs. The only problem is, that the costs in the civiliopedia are others then in the game.

A lot of civs has a 150 modifier for units, why not change all costs and give them 100.. too much work? Maybe for the final version, when balancing is finished.

I also took a look at all the balance things, i understand most of them: old civs like Byzanz and Arabia have higher costs, new civs like Sweden and Dutch have lower costs. Thats very good.

But why is the culture for Turkey, Sweden and Dutch lower? The Dutch need double the culture for a border pop, why? Also, different costs for units and buildings is supported by the UI. But not with culture. With dutch, i used artist specialist with Divine Monarchy (+6 :culture:), i reads 0/+6 in the culture window, next round there is 3.5/+6.
That realy looks like a bug (i think i already reported this in my dutch feedback a week ago)
Different building costs are ok, but i dont unterstand it with culture (Only double culture for Rome is needed, else the Byzanz UHV wouldnt be a challenge)

Next thing are the AI-AI relations:
Arabia-Cordoba and Spain-Portugal being natural allies is understandable, but why have France-Burgundy the same +8 modifier with each other? In older versions i remember that France often conquered Burgund, havent seen this happening in my last games, no wonder if they are friendly from the start.

And at last: there is still the 3rd german UHV thats not working, should be in 1540, but it says not yet even after it, i played till 1562.
http://i419.photobucket.com/albums/pp273/Feyaria23/Civ4ScreenShot0158-1.jpgBtw, i realy like that the german UHV is finished before Holland spawns, so you can use their land for 2 good cities.


On the workers:
http://i419.photobucket.com/albums/pp273/Feyaria23/Civ4ScreenShot0155-1.jpgNo danger for workers here, the AI rather builds some farms and Mines instead of improving its iron,horse and salt. Its over 300 years after spawn! And the single worker rather replaces a cottage with a workshop... working the mined iron would be far superior then this....

But it almost looks like today Austria :)

The Byzantines really need an extra UP to make gameplay less tedious. As I pointed out before, after each declaration of independence and each reconquest, your expansion/economy/city stability all take hits, which ends up being a death spiral. I propose giving the Byzantines a big boost in stability (e.g. 10-15 points) with each reconquest of a city that has Byzantine culture. This will allow them to eventually become stable and don't have to conquer back cities. Right now all I can build is research in Antioch, Tarsus, Tyre and Jerusalem, and even Iconium flipped after my Orthodox Church was built (after 400 years)! After all, if you don't count the Cordobans, the Byzantine Empire was the most stable and powerful empire in Europe until Charlemagne, and the age of the Macedonian emperors could truly be called a golden age. The current game play does not reflect this.


Frankly, my strategy with Byzantium has been to let the cities flip to independents. Anything out of my core area I would drain for resources by say, mass producing workers and not investing in infrastructure. Then, when they flipped, I'd raze them. This would then require a war with Arabia over some of the Anatolian peninsula near the time requirement of the 2nd UHV.

The problem is that you cannot raze these cities due to your culture there. If you play in Emperor and allow the Arabians to survive, they'll rapidly outtech you and it will be impossible to recapture Aleppo or Antioch.
What exactly does the Byzantine core consist of? (I thought Iconium was part of it and therefore starting to build walls/church there)

My fault on german UP, it works. Germany has a +50% modifier, and 150 - 25% = 112.5, just what i had in costs. The only problem is, that the costs in the civiliopedia are others then in the game.

The civilopedia is disjoin from the civ that is viewing it. Connecting them is (next to) impossible.

A lot of civs has a 150 modifier for units, why not change all costs and give them 100.. too much work? Maybe for the final version, when balancing is finished.

There are 27 civilizations and many units and techs, guess which one is easier to modify. Eventually we may fix that, but for right now it is too much pointless work.

I also took a look at all the balance things, i understand most of them: old civs like Byzanz and Arabia have higher costs, new civs like Sweden and Dutch have lower costs. Thats very good.

But why is the culture for Turkey, Sweden and Dutch lower? The Dutch need double the culture for a border pop, why? Also, different costs for units and buildings is supported by the UI. But not with culture. With dutch, i used artist specialist with Divine Monarchy (+6 :culture:), i reads 0/+6 in the culture window, next round there is 3.5/+6.
That realy looks like a bug (i think i already reported this in my dutch feedback a week ago)
Different building costs are ok, but i dont unterstand it with culture (Only double culture for Rome is needed, else the Byzanz UHV wouldnt be a challenge)

This is a bug. Culture works slightly differently then other modifiers ( unit production modifier changes the cost of units, culture modifier changes the culture created). Fixed for the next version. (Thanks)

Next thing are the AI-AI relations:
Arabia-Cordoba and Spain-Portugal being natural allies is understandable, but why have France-Burgundy the same +8 modifier with each other? In older versions i remember that France often conquered Burgund, havent seen this happening in my last games, no wonder if they are friendly from the start.

Don't know. I think they were fighting too much and eventually both were collapsing. I have to check with the others on why it is set like that. The Arabia - Cordoba is there to give them the economy benefits of Open Borders and trade (since others are less likely to trade with Muslims) and the others are trying to instigate wars.

And at last: there is still the 3rd german UHV thats not working, should be in 1540, but it says not yet even after it, i played till 1562.
http://i419.photobucket.com/albums/pp273/Feyaria23/Civ4ScreenShot0158-1.jpgBtw, i realy like that the german UHV is finished before Holland spawns, so you can use their land for 2 good cities.

Found a bug and fixed it. I hope it is the only one. (Thanks)

On the workers:
http://i419.photobucket.com/albums/pp273/Feyaria23/Civ4ScreenShot0155-1.jpgNo danger for workers here, the AI rather builds some farms and Mines instead of improving its iron,horse and salt. Its over 300 years after spawn! And the single worker rather replaces a cottage with a workshop... working the mined iron would be far superior then this....

But it almost looks like today Austria :)

So we got it right, what's the problem? :)

The resources are 2 tiles from unfriendly border and for some reason the AI flags those as "do not approach". I don't know if I will be able to find and fix the bug until the next version. (or if I fix it, then wouldn't the AI take advantage of the undefended workers)

The problem is that you cannot raze these cities due to your culture there. If you play in Emperor and allow the Arabians to survive, they'll rapidly outtech you and it will be impossible to recapture Aleppo or Antioch.
What exactly does the Byzantine core consist of? (I thought Iconium was part of it and therefore starting to build walls/church there)

The core is Greece. I am not sure if Nicaea is included in it.

The original UHV for the Byzantines involved simple survival and there was no issue of the cities going independent. Check out the Faith Points post, it could help. We may also move Imperialism earlier for the Byzantines.

Germany always collapses in emperor soon after they spawn. The reason is that all those barbs (I counted no less than 12 axemen, 18 horse archers and even some spearmen spread out all the way from the Rhine to the Ukraine) don't flip to them, and they attack the weakest civ preferentially. Maybe the flip area for Germany needs to be a little bigger.

In my game as Spain France and Burgundy were good allies until I took out France. 200 years later they respawned and becaome Burgundy's vassal.

Something is wrong with the first Hungarian UHV: I had the most territory and it just said I didn't have it :confused:. Can that be the barb's territory or the independents'?

A small comment on the settler maps. Although I'm not colour-blind, I find it hard to distinguish the second (pink) and the third (red) level on the map. The "old" settler maps (where the most important cities were yellow in stead of bright pink), were much easier to read. Maybe we could go back to the original colours, or change the colour values so that it's easier to distinguish the colours without taking a very close look.

The problem is that you cannot raze these cities due to your culture there. If you play in Emperor and allow the Arabians to survive, they'll rapidly outtech you and it will be impossible to recapture Aleppo or Antioch.
What exactly does the Byzantine core consist of? (I thought Iconium was part of it and therefore starting to build walls/church there)

You can raze them usually after the second time they declare independence. So far, I'm pretty sure the core area is the part marked by the Byzantine spawn zone in the reference folder. Your starting cities in Greece, Thrace, Constantinople, and the two Western most cities in Anatolia.

In a recent build I was able to capture Antioch, and about 2 turns shy of Aleppo, so it is certainly possible with catapracts and bombards. With Byzantium your upkeep costs are so high, any city of your core area you need to shed ASAP or it will bring down your research even without reaching point where your techs cost more.

You can raze them usually after the second time they declare independence.


I've recaptured all 4 of eastern-most cities at least 6 times now, usually I wait at least 3-4 turns before I capture them, and I still can't raze them.

I've recaptured all 4 of eastern-most cities at least 6 times now, usually I wait at least 3-4 turns before I capture them, and I still can't raze them.

Let them be independent. Capture them only once for the UHV shortly before the due date.

I think that the Hungarian UHV is bugged (No Ottomon Cities in Europe in 1526)- The year is 1596, and no Ottomon cities are in Europe, but on the Victory Screen, it's still marked as "Not Yet."

Let them be independent. Capture them only once for the UHV shortly before the due date.

I'm talking about being the Byzantine emperor (i.e. worse than Deity with the penalties). I cannot research anything above swordsmen or lancers, let alone catapults, and even if you have the techs, it'll take FOREVER to build them. (Nicaea with Heroic Epic builds a measly spearman in 4-5 turns, let alone a lancer which took 10)

I don't know if it's too late or not, but on the map (I know that should be on the map thread but I didn't find it) next to the river Tisza there is a honey resource, somewhere where Tokaj is. Can that be changed to wine? The wine of Tokaj is pretty famous, I don't really know about the honey of Tokaj :D.
Most of Transylvania is dense forests, what about reducing it, so Hungarian settling territory would become bigger a little bit. In fact Transylvania wasn't uninhabited, and on the current version of the map it normally is. (I will attach a picture about how I imagined it) I would also find it better if Hungary would have a lot of gold. In the medieval times, the biggest amount of gold was mined in Hungary, and the second most of silver after Bohemia. Maybe Transylvania should be the place where these resources could be found, in fact Bulgarians also possessed them before the arrival of Magyars.
Sorry that I come up with these ideas that late :)
EDIT: pictures

I don't know if it's too late or not, but on the map (I know that should be on the map thread but I didn't find it) next to the river Tisza there is a honey resource, somewhere where Tokaj is. Can that be changed to wine? The wine of Tokaj is pretty famous, I don't really know about the honey of Tokaj :D.
Most of Transylvania is dense forests, what about reducing it, so Hungarian settling territory would become bigger a little bit. In fact Transylvania wasn't uninhabited, and on the current version of the map it normally is. (I will attach a picture about how I imagined it) I would also find it better if Hungary would have a lot of gold. In the medieval times, the biggest amount of gold was mined in Hungary, and the second most of silver after Bohemia. Maybe Transylvania should be the place where these resources could be found, in fact Bulgarians also possessed them before the arrival of Magyars.
Sorry that I come up with these ideas that late :)
EDIT: pictures

We are not changing the size of othe map or what it generally covers, but the specifics of the terrain are still to be worked out. Hungary does need a lot of improvement, particularly since they get virtually no resources.

When I get back I will ask you to post a WB save with the proposed changes. You will have to start a game with Burgundy and without moving any units, go to WB and make the changes.

Something very strange:

939: Germany spawns
942: Germany collapsed
945: Germany respawned (I think because of the spawn zone)

Okay, so can I send other changes as well? I mean that I will look at resource maps of the middle ages, and then I try to be as accurate as it is possible.

Okay, so can I send other changes as well? I mean that I will look at resource maps of the middle ages, and then I try to be as accurate as it is possible.

Hungary is the one that needs a lot of work and maybe couple of others. Some areas have been carefully considered and sometimes we have historically inaccurate placement, but useful for gameplay purposes. Other than that, yes you can submit a map with changes, just make sure you follow my instructions (i.e. start a game with Burgundy....)

At the moment, I'm playing Hungary. The strategy was to get Islam, Orthodoxy and Catholicism ASAP and then convert to Catholicism. Luckily, I had all three religions by 936 AD. Now, I'm going to convert all my cities to all religions, thus maximizing my use of the UP. Of course I didn't want to waste hammers and time on Catholic missionaries, since they would come from the Pope.

And so they came. The missionary SW of Varad will do it's job the next turn, but the missionary NW of Varad is standing there for some turns already, and won't go away the next few turns. Possible bug or just a bad accident?

Some Viking Barbs attack the Norse. I suppose, it should be abort.

And please check the Citynames again. Poland founds "Lwo;w"... :(

At the moment, I'm playing Hungary. The strategy was to get Islam, Orthodoxy and Catholicism ASAP and then convert to Catholicism. Luckily, I had all three religions by 936 AD. Now, I'm going to convert all my cities to all religions, thus maximizing my use of the UP. Of course I didn't want to waste hammers and time on Catholic missionaries, since they would come from the Pope.

And so they came. The missionary SW of Varad will do it's job the next turn, but the missionary NW of Varad is standing there for some turns already, and won't go away the next few turns. Possible bug or just a bad accident?

Once Varad is converted, you have Catholicism in all of your cities. The Pope is probably trying to find another target for his Missionary and if all the countries that have OB with the Pope are completely Catholic, there will be no new target. The AI would then flag the unit as useless and disband it (so that it doesn't drain the economy).

Some Viking Barbs attack the Norse. I suppose, it should be abort.

And please check the Citynames again. Poland founds "Lwo;w"... :(

Did the Viking came with a ship or did it just spawn there?

Once Varad is converted, you have Catholicism in all of your cities. The Pope is probably trying to find another target for his Missionary and if all the countries that have OB with the Pope are completely Catholic, there will be no new target. The AI would then flag the unit as useless and disband it (so that it doesn't drain the economy).

I only discovered the second missionary when I saved the game, the first was already standing there for 3 or 4 turns I think. Also, there has been another one wandering near Raguza, perhaps to convert a Byzantine city, and the one near Varad is still standing there for no good reason.:confused:

Did the Viking came with a ship or did it just spawn there?

I had the same thing. Three shiploads arrived and landed 6 beserkers W of Tonsberg. My 2 archers held them off though. Also more barb triremes than before.

I had the same thing. Three shiploads arrived and landed 6 beserkers W of Tonsberg. My 2 archers held them off though. Also more barb triremes than before.

We should stop the spawn of Viking Barbs after the spawn of the Norse.

We can also along those lines add some Barbs near the Byzantine borders representing the pre-Bulgaria Bulgarians and Slavs as well as the pre-Muslim Arabs.

Oh, the poor Byzantines. Is it enough that they start with no workers and now they are even more expensive to make for them, and for proto-Bulgars to come and pillage? If so can we at least give them 1 worker to start?

On the same note, can you fix the perennial German collapse due to capturing by barbs of their poorly fortified cities when they spawn? After all, in the 800's there should be no more "barbs" from Germany to Poland, which is where the majority of the barbs hide currently.

Oh, the poor Byzantines. Is it enough that they start with no workers and now they are even more expensive to make for them, and for proto-Bulgars to come and pillage? If so can we at least give them 1 worker to start?

On the same note, can you fix the perennial German collapse due to capturing by barbs of their poorly fortified cities when they spawn? After all, in the 800's there should be no more "barbs" from Germany to Poland, which is where the majority of the barbs hide currently.

I will work on the barbs, however, the workers for the Byzantines are cheaper in Alpha 4.

I will work on the barbs, however, the workers for the Byzantines are cheaper in Alpha 4.

What happened to the barbs in Morocco? The barb rush on Tangier hasn't happened at all in Alpha 3 or 4. I'd also like to have the Barbary pirates operating from Algiers and Tunis from about 1200 to 1800. They could use the Xebec warship (replaces the privateer?) for which there's some nice art. See below.

What happened to the barbs in Morocco? The barb rush on Tangier hasn't happened at all in Alpha 3 or 4. I'd also like to have the Barbary pirates operating from Algiers and Tunis from about 1200 to 1800. They could use the Xebec warship (replaces the privateer?) for which there's some nice art. See below.

The only barbs I remember changing were the ones on the Balkans and the Mongols. I will check it out, but only when I come back.

Please, please change Colonialism civic to be actually a Stability civic -- right now it just adds another trade route. One could get extra +5 Expansion stability point for every Colonial Project built...

Noooo! The Colonialism Civic gives plenty of stability points by boosting your economy greatly. In fact, if you have more than 10 cities, it'll allow you to bring up your science slider a full 10%! The high maintenance actually is justified for once.

Did the Viking came with a ship or did it just spawn there?

they came with a ship. And they surprised me two times!

...and one other hint. Please replace the fish 888 of Danzig/Gdansk to 88 of Danzig. The ressource is absolutely useless else.

Edit: The new German city-founding-strategy is :thumbsdown:
In my actual Poland-game they founded Coburg 66 from Frankfurt and Amsterdam. Augsburg has been razed (propably by barbs) and then they conquered Lübeck!
So they have only 4 Cities, two of them rob the ressources from each other, the others are far away!

Noooo! The Colonialism Civic gives plenty of stability points by boosting your economy greatly. In fact, if you have more than 10 cities, it'll allow you to bring up your science slider a full 10%! The high maintenance actually is justified for once.

I like Colonialism as it is. But if you felt obliged to turn it into something with actual projects, you could give trade routs per projects or something.

That said, I think it makes good sense the way it is. The last civic category is not a "stability" category, it is an "expansion" category. Some civilizations expanded through trade. Some civilizations need to run the new and improved Imperialism civic due to there large, mostly European empires.

But with the current way that civic is it is viable for some civs to use it without even thinking of build projects. I think maybe there should be a small benefit specifically for projects as well as the trade routs.

Trade routes should be provided by the Trading Companies (available to everyone). The civic should be expansive. We can give extra boost to stability for each project build, however, +5 is way too much. +2 tops.

I think I'm with AP on this one, the extra trade route is, for large empires, easily a boost of over 80 or 100 raw commerce per turn, which is already a reason for me to choose it. It would also make the stable civs (the colonizers) even more stable.

I think I'm with AP on this one, the extra trade route is, for large empires, easily a boost of over 80 or 100 raw commerce per turn, which is already a reason for me to choose it. It would also make the stable civs (the colonizers) even more stable.

My proposal is to remove the trade route bonus and replace it with +1 or +2 per colonial project. Then another proposal is to give +1 trade route bonus for the East/West India Trade Companies.

Would it unbalance too much if you gave a production boost to colony projects when running Colonialism? Possibly balanced with a higher hammer cost before applying any bonus. That would oblige civs to choose between an "inward" and an "outward" orientation about their route to victory, for the colonial period at least.