I've just updated the changelog with the following;

31. Added Carrack naval unit. Requires: Optics. Strength 9, Range 1. (Role: Escort)
32. Frigate moved to Astronomy. Strength 11, Range 1, Moves 5, No cargo. Bonuses vs transport ships - Galley, Galleon, Queen of the Line - and Privateers. (Role: Escort/Patrol vessel)
33. Galleon moved to Optics, 1 extra cargo. (Role: Transport)
34. Caravel gains +35% withdrawal chance. (Role: Exploration)
35. Galley gains 2 cargo spaces and increases in cost by 10 hammers. (Role: Early Transport)
36. Man O' War gains ranged attack (Range 2, 60% limit). Moves reduced to 3. (Role: Heavy Warship)
37. Pirate (Lanun UU) gains 1 move and starts with Buccaneer crew (allows them to use the Buccaneers spell). Gains +50% bonus vs Transport ships (see above).
38. Privateers gain +25% bonus vs transport ships.
39. Both Pirate and Privateer reduced by 1 strength (specialized against Transport vessels, more vulnerable to escort/patrol ships)
40. All bonus requirements (copper, iron) for naval units below Astronomy level removed (encourages the use of different ships, especially by the AI).


The aim is to give each ship type a more concrete role. All requirements for bonuses in the Sailing/Optics era (copper/iron) have been removed.

Sailing era
Galley - Early Transport (extra transport capacity)
Trireme - Early Escort (more easily available as no copper prereq)

Optics Era
Carrack - Escort (new unit, takes role of frigate)
Galleon - Transport (moved earlier in the tree to encourage inter-continental war)
Privateer - Anti-Transport (stronger vs transports, weaker vs others)
Caravel - Exploration (added decent withdrawal chance)

Astronomy Era
Frigate - Patrol/Escort (faster, hunts for sneaky transports and pirates)
Queen of the Line - Transport (unchanged)
Man O'War - Heavy Warship/Defensive (slower, long ranged, heavy hitter)

===

Feedback welcomed.

Sounds good to me.

does this imply the death of the change crew type function as presumably that helps muddy the ship roles (...although I do actually think it's a neat little function, just not sure whether the AI grasps it)?

Just thinking that perhaps with Astronomy, other nations (and the Lanun for their other ship types) could purchase the ability to have Buccaneer crew...or a weaker 'Boarding Party' version?

Whilst that may be perceived as a nerf for the Lanun, I think opening up this ability across the civs would make the whole naval thing a lot more interesting

Also notice you've added Trade ships in the main changelog - do these count as transport ships for piracy purposes...and can they be captured (and if so exchanged for a (presumable) gold boost at a home port by the piratical player)?

Also notice you've added Trade ships in the main changelog - do these count as transport ships for piracy purposes...and can they be captured (and if so exchanged for a (presumable) gold boost at a home port by the piratical player)?

Aye - they will be included as targets for Pirates/Privateers. I hadn't implemented them when I first posted the list for the other ships. I hadn't considered the option of having them capturable, but instead had given them a "+10 gold on kill" so any ship that does destroy one will earn 10 gold for their civilization. In the case of Pirates, who have 15 GoldFromCombat, that would be 25 gold per Trade Ship sunk.

===

In return though, the trade ship will be a decent source of income, if you can maintain open borders with a reasonably distant, large, foreign port.

Perhaps trade ships can't enter "blockaded" waters without escort of some sort?
And a deeper degree of customization would be nice... crews, guns and sails. + orbi style pirates (combat I + a promotion) really gives active combat and venom to the game. Every strait becomes a battle ground and a strong navy is more necessary. Perhaps it's too much, but i like it.


Edit: 10 gp per kill is by far not enough.... more gold or perhaps 1/2 - 1/4 the hammer cost of the trade ship. The hammers gained would be extra cargo and need space + safe transport to a friendly harbor.

Very nice change and sorely needed. My biggest hope is, that the AI will be able to do a better job out on the ocean now. Let's see how it turns out and hope for the best.

I'm not sure if I like your change to make all the earlier ships independet of resources. Maybe there is another way. When I was playing Rise of Mankind some weeks ago I kind of liked the property "builds x1 % faster with y1 and x2 % faster with y2 ...". I know a tag for this is available for buildings already, but i'm not that sure, that something like this exists for units in FF as well. Might be worth implementing, if not.

Perhaps trade ships can't enter "blockaded" waters without escort of some sort?

It'd take some work to implement a "can't move here without escort", but I think it is covered fairly well by the fact that entering those waters is a really silly thing to do anyway. The blockade must be from a hostile ship and an undefended trade ship is not going to win often at all. I don't think there needs to be a game mechanic to prevent a player doing something like that - if they're willing to take such a risk, then by all means...


Edit: 10 gp per kill is by far not enough.... more gold or perhaps 1/2 - 1/4 the hammer cost of the trade ship. The hammers gained would be extra cargo and need space + safe transport to a friendly harbor.

The hammers are an option actually. I'll have a play with that and see how it feels. Makes some sense thematically at least.

The 10 gold is basically a bonus though for intercepting the ship - there's no game mechanic reason to give the attacking player anything in return. They've destroyed a ship costing their opponent a number of hammers for no return, plus the experience earned for the kill. Only the privateer classes of ships should be really encouraged to look for these ships and when combined with the pirate's inherent bonus, it can be quite a nice bit of gold anyway...

I'm not sure if I like your change to make all the earlier ships independet of resources. Maybe there is another way. When I was playing Rise of Mankind some weeks ago I kind of liked the property "builds x1 % faster with y1 and x2 % faster with y2 ...". I know a tag for this is available for buildings already, but i'm not that sure, that something like this exists for units in FF as well. Might be worth implementing, if not.

There is a tag for that (BonusProductionModifier) and it may work quite nicely if I increase the cost of the Optics-era ships but allow them to build quicker with the materials they used to require. The main priority is to get both the AI and the player using a variety of ships though - which I think relies on them being accessible (especially for the AI) and having diverse uses (more for the players).

good changes, this will definitely make ships more interesting. does it also help the AI settle overseas lands? that would be truly great ;)

Gekko;7440495']good changes, this will definitely make ships more interesting. does it also help the AI settle overseas lands? that would be truly great ;)

Galleys having a cargo capacity from the start should do that...

Looks like a significant improvement!


37. Pirate (Lanun UU) gains 1 move and starts with Buccaneer crew (allows them to use the Buccaneers spell). Gains +50% bonus vs Transport ships (see above).
38. Privateers gain +25% bonus vs transport ships.

Best suited to submarines, but how about making the Marksman promotion available (after a few levels of Combat) to Pirates and probably Privateers?


39. Both Pirate and Privateer reduced by 1 strength (specialized against Transport vessels, more vulnerable to escort/patrol ships)

The Frigate bonus plus the above seems like too much. Though I guess that depends on how much of an advantage for frigates you desire... Or how small and advantage for Privateers over transports.


Optics Era
Carrack - Escort (new unit, takes role of frigate)

"Carrack" implies an older, clunkier ship-type than Galleon. I suggest "Brig" or "Brigantine".


Frigate - Patrol/Escort (faster, hunts for sneaky transports and pirates)
Man O'War - Heavy Warship/Defensive (slower, long ranged, heavy hitter)

I'd appreciate a third ship-type in between the Man O'War and the Frigate. I've imagined the Man O'War as what the British would class as a First-Rater, and the Frigates as 5th Rate. I see a niche for 3rd-rate "workhorse" warships. Not as fast as Frigates, but not nearly as pricey as a Man O'War/much lower ranged.)

(I made an "Age of Sail" mod for Civ3 - my desires vis a vis ships might be unusual and somewhat excessive. :))

I'd appreciate a third ship-type in between the Man O'War and the Frigate. I've imagined the Man O'War as what the British would class as a First-Rater, and the Frigates as 5th Rate. I see a niche for 3rd-rate "workhorse" warships. Not as fast as Frigates, but not nearly as pricey as a Man O'War/much lower ranged.)

What would the role be? There's only 2 strength between Frigates and Men O' War (might need to boost the big guys by a point) so there's not really room for a "cheap o' war".

There's definitely a thematic place for it being as there were 5 or 6 first rate vessels in the British Navy at any given point compared to nearly 100 or so third rate vessels, but I'm mostly looking at mechanics so far.

====

With the Pirates vs Frigates - the Frigates are now third tier, so the instant response of any Pirate ship should be "run!" - there should be an era in which pirates are fairly dominant (might pay to keep the strength as-is to ensure that), but once the larger warships come out they become somewhat opportunistic tools.

Checking back over things - I think you're right. It probably is best to keep the Privateers at Str 8. They need to outclass Trireme's at least and should be only slightly weaker than Carrack/Brigs (know of a good unit model for the Brig?)

I don't think that Pirates or Privateers should be units at all; their abilities should be moved to promotions that you could give to any naval units. Pirates are Privateers historically used the same basic types of ships as the regular navy did. Most would be smaller ships like Corvettes, with Pirate Kings themselves occasionally using captured Men O War.


I prefer making Piracy make the unit HN and get gold from combat, and make Letters of Marque make the unit AlwaysHostile and get gold from combat.


Dwarves need an Ironclad UU. It might also be nice to have Icebreaker ships that can move though sea ice (which would be important in my version where Temples of the Hand/Snowfall can create sea ice.)

What would the role be?

Hmm... I'd make the Man O'War a National Unit - quite strong - and the in-between unit would be for everywhere you don't have a Man O'War but want more than a Frigate. It's ranged attack would be 1 or 2 steps below the Man O'Wars - nonexistant if the MOW's attack isn't sufficiently powerful/long ranged.

So, role-wise, I'd make the Man O'War a special, cool, unit and offer the new unit in as the normal Astronomy-era warship. Outside ranged bombardment there'd be no extra role: More putting a cherry on top of the naval warfare cake. Or maybe sundae - a banana boat.

Carrack/Brigs (know of a good unit model for the Brig?)

I'd probably go for this one: Chebeque / Xebec (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=7129).

It might be best to use it as the Privateer - it looks very fast and sleek - and use the current Privateer model as the Optics-era Escort.

In between unit name "Ship of the Line" perhaps?

an icebreaker ship ( alternatively, you could implement it as a crew or a promotion ) would be nice. if you let it move on impassable ice and terraform it to water as soon as the unit is standing on the tile, the AI should be able to use it as well :)

Tarquelne suggestion of Making Man-o-War slightly stronger but as a national unit is a very good idea. It would still allow for pirate fleets to attack poorly escorted merchants but "proper" navy escorts would out gun them. Really nice mechanic - reminds me of the aircraft carriers in regular Civ

I see so much potential in MC's suggestion.
A permanent minus 20% strength would give any ship a wee challenge if trying to go the way of piracy.

One of the reasons I advocate using promotions is that I do not believe that trade ships and privateers will be the silencer of "unused oceans" discussions.
Ships are a "luxury", they may be necessary to build empires, but they can't take cities by themselves. Ships need all the help they can get.

I like MC's suggestion of making pirate a promotion. Make it available to lanun right off the bat, and maybe a later promotion for other civs. Also, it would be nice if that promotion allowed "HN" and remove HN spells -- but only castable within your boarders, or maybe within your cities and pirate ports.

Kudos to the FF team adding these couple of huge changes in the next release~ :goodjob: (imagining myself torn between playing Ice scenarios or FF over winter break :lol:)

I did notice an interesting lack of reference to the arcane barge--so... is it removed/changed/left the same?
With the current huge increase in strength of naval units though, I definitely see the arcane barges taking a HUGE hit on utility--its fireballs are gonna simply bounce off these new frigates like a ping-pong ball. If left unchanged, its only use is to toss fireball bombardment at land units (in which it seems that the new man'o'wars can do now)

Another naval issue I would like to discuss would be regarding OO.
Similar to the above, with ship and sea creature str going up by as much as 40% in 0.34, OO's naval prowess has taken a huge hit.
It does make sense that cultists shouldn't be a match to heavy warships (I agree with the cultists/ship str ratio).
But, having the Kraken stay the exact same str as before, makes the high priests kind of obselete.
Religious Law and Theology are very expensive techs, and simply to get one free "strong" man' o war feels slightly too little for the beaker/upgrading costs.
(=P maybe I should post it on the main forum too since it applies there as well, but I guess I'll see how naval warfare pans out in FF first)

Dying to try a full fledged naval war with this... Gonna try Archipelago for the first time in FFH. :D

I would like to put in that I don't particularly like MC's suggestions. Sorry, Magister, but I much prefer pirates and privateers being a separate unit. It is cleaner and more functional from a game play perspective, in my opinion. Also, I feel that Always Hostile should never be used for any reason, EVER, because it is confusing in the extreme to anyone who is not prepared for it and has no real gameplay difference from Hidden Nationality.

I do, however, love the proposed changes. Although I agree that Arcane Barges could possibly use a boost of some kind...

EDIT: Let me note the exception that proves the rule - The Scions of Patria's use of Always Hostile for "recovering" Alcinus is the one valid use of it I can think of.

Personally, I'd have to agree with MaxAstro, although it's not for quite the same reasons... In a purely MP game, Magister's promotions idea would be great. It would simulate how those ships were actually used, and allow you to upgrade your privateers with the rest of your fleets... However, making a promotion so vital to a unit tends to not work well with the AI, which has already been shown with the crew promotions. Since this is primarily a single player game, I don't think that implementation would work very well.

While I cannot say if they select promotions intelligently, I can say that in the next release you will rarely see an AI ship without a naval crew. When I ditched the spell format of Crews I had to teach the AI to make a choice between the 3 of them or the game would spinlock as the AI sat in the city and repeatedly swapped crews. I was afraid at first that my AI work would be a tad TOO elementary and the AI would always take the exact same crew promotion, but thus far they have been fairly versatile with the selection.

Another naval issue I would like to discuss would be regarding OO.
Similar to the above, with ship and sea creature str going up by as much as 40% in 0.34, OO's naval prowess has taken a huge hit.
It does make sense that cultists shouldn't be a match to heavy warships (I agree with the cultists/ship str ratio).
But, having the Kraken stay the exact same str as before, makes the high priests kind of obselete.
Religious Law and Theology are very expensive techs, and simply to get one free "strong" man' o war feels slightly too little for the beaker/upgrading costs.
(=P maybe I should post it on the main forum too since it applies there as well, but I guess I'll see how naval warfare pans out in FF first)

I just had a look at the Kraken with the intention of boosting it's strength, but noticed that Kael had already increased it from 13 to 17. Man O' Wars also gained 4 points (from 9 to 13), which means that percentage/ratiowise the Kraken got less of a boost, but it's still a fairly substantial advantage over the Man O' War.

===

Regarding the Arcane Barge - there have been a few ideas thrown around, but I think I'm favouring using it as a "support vessel" with a few more spells. Increasing the potency of its fireballs is one option, but I'm possibly thinking about making them a national unit, carrying a number of wizards to support the fleet and so having the ability to cast a number of spells per turn. As the "twincast" field for promotions now just sets the number of spells that can be used per turn (rather than being "double summons" as before), the barge would be able to cast something like Fair Winds as well as throwing a fireball, or could just choose to concentrate on throwing multiple fireballs.

:lol: went back to check the kraken str and just noticed the changes. I've been shuttling between 0.34 and FF so I think I got a lil' confused there, my bad. /slaps himself

As for the Arcane Barges, being able to at least cast fair winds sounds like a start.
I'm kind of iffy about simply being able to toss multiple fireballs, since that seems to be some kind of an overlap with the Man 'O War's ability for ranged attack, making it just being somewhat of a Man O War's little kid brother. ;)
Making it a national unit seems an interesting idea too, considering that both prereq techs are pretty high up the lines anyway. And should it become a national unit there would certainly be a need to boost it's usefulness much further.

Just tossing a few ideas for spells around...
Fair Winds/Fireballs (pretty basic spells i guess)
Some kind of an adapted Blur spell that protects/reduces the dmg from ranged attacks (aka long ranged Man O' War cannonballs) -- imagines the wizards conjuring up some kind of mist to obscure long-ranged targetting
On the other hand some spell that enhances the range/damage cap? of Man O' Wars's long ranged bombardment might be cool.
Summoning some water elementals? If fireballs are too weak these could help, but I'm somewhat hesitant about this since elementals are tier 3.
Maelstrom--pretty basic tier 2 air spell, could definitely do much better collateral damage since its percentage instead of hard str of fireballs
Repair--I definitely can see adepts on barges repairing damaged crafts after a battle (maybe a somewhat more potent repair than the basic adept spell if its a national unit)
Revelation?--I know its a divine spell so I'm kinda iffy on this too but it could be nice to temporarily remove the HN on privateers till they return to a friendly port, unless of course they want to DoW and attack anyway. Could counter those pesky privateers in the sea
Floating eye--nice tier 1 spell to help scout if you don't want to bring a hawk on a hunter along

:lol: looked at the spell list and chose the more useful/promising ones in naval warfare.


*ninjaedit*: Oh right and also with respect to krakens, is there a possibility of turning them HN with the Hidden feature? After all animals and such start HN, and why should we attribute a particular kraken attack to a particular civ (unless we actually painted the spots on the krakens our national colour to differentiate :lol:)
And if not to the extent of HN, could we at least let the krakens explore rival territory when hidden? In my last game I couldn't enter rival territory with my "submarines" unless i declared war.

krakens being invisible ( underwater ) and HN definitely makes sense. and on the subject of national units ( slightly OT here ) : someone mentioned in the main forums that the number of national units you're allowed to have should scale with map size, I definitely agree. on a small map 4 are quite a lot while on a large map they're lonely :D

Regarding the Arcane Barge - there have been a few ideas thrown around, but I think I'm favouring using it as a "support vessel" with a few more spells.

I like that a great deal. The exact spells available could depend on techs and/or Leader Traits? And maybe promotions?

Perhaps the Arcane barge could hand out "fair winds" to any ship in its stack. Fair winds has a chance to wear off, and if a ship in the stack looses the promotion, the whole stack slows. If the player neglects to check the stack every turn to see if it has worn off...

Since the Arcane barge starts out with spells, and does not promote to them, I don't think too many spells is the best idea. Fireball and fair winds may be enough (?)

I like the idea of it having Maelstorm and possibly Repair as well. Giving it both Fireball and Maelstorm gives it a variety of options for magical attack.

Instead of letting it cast Fair Winds, I like Elm's idea of just having it automatically grant Fair Winds to any ship in it's stack, to reduce microing on long voyages. I think Fireball, Maelstorm, and Repair on top of that wouldn't be a bad idea, although you'd have to change the prereqs on Repair to get it to work, unless you feel like making the Arcane Barge a dwarf. :p

With navies apparently becoming a lot more flavorful, the "Repair" spell which is currently only a dwarven thing, might be really worth investigating for other units, civs, religions, buildings, or some combination of all of those.

Example 1: maybe being stationed in a Pirate Cove entitles a unit sitting there to cast "Repair" on itself. Or a unit sitting in a city with a Shipyard building, or some more expensive Drydock building.

Example 2: maybe OO worshipping civs, just as they have waterwalking undead and cultists, manage to "alter" enough skilled crafters to effect repairs while at anchor, that normally require going to a drydock. I.e., maybe a Temple of the Overlords lets you do a Repair, maybe it's Shipyards of OO civs that let you do this, I have a hard time envisioning shambling undead units getting the ability to use this ability, but maybe it could tie to some other unit. Zealot maybe, getting stuck with crappy work while "apprenticing" to be Cultists. *shrugs*

Example 3: feels a little micro to me, but building a "Shipwright" unit for some or all civs could be done. Again, though, a micro concern which may be no worse than any current "I keep my Enchantment Adept in City A, as well as my Courage Adept there as well, to buff everyone who has to pass through there" type strategies.

Anyhow, it's weird that it's really only dwarven sorts who are able to repair ships, plenty of fantasy literature includes dwarves being terrified of sea travel (weigh as much as a man but nowhere near as tall, plus a proclivity for sleeping in platemail jammies, means a not-very-buoyant dwarf!)

Obviously ancillary topics to these great sounding naval improvements, but being able to have some speedy methods to get damaged vessels back afloat may become a new strategic need.

What about just giving the acane barge Channelling and allowing it to gain and cast spells as a mage? This would really represent a mage who is on the ship. Or perhaps it is a LiveShip that can cast spells or some other fantasy creation. Then the player can decide what is important for their game. Perhaps allow an upgrade path for the 2nd and third tier spells...

The problem with repair, as I see it, is that it will make Pirate/Privateer's too powerful.

At the moment, if a privateer is damaged, it either has to make it to a city to heal faster, or it has to find a secluded spot to heal up, where no one will go after it.

And repair is a same turn thing. Meaning you could attack and repair in the same turn, giving your opponent a smaller chance retaliating successfully. That is one of the major benefits of the heal spell, which is on a fairly advanced unit.

As an aside, the Lanun are ocean-fairing, so you would think there ships would heal/repair faster. Has anyone considered that in the past? Something like a 5-10% heal rate added to Lanun ships?

How about using the Arcane Barge as an Icebreaker unit? It can eliminate Ice in a sea tile by moving into it.

The problem with repair, as I see it, is that it will make Pirate/Privateer's too powerful.

At the moment, if a privateer is damaged, it either has to make it to a city to heal faster, or it has to find a secluded spot to heal up, where no one will go after it.

And repair is a same turn thing. Meaning you could attack and repair in the same turn, giving your opponent a smaller chance retaliating successfully. That is one of the major benefits of the heal spell, which is on a fairly advanced unit.

As an aside, the Lanun are ocean-fairing, so you would think there ships would heal/repair faster. Has anyone considered that in the past? Something like a 5-10% heal rate added to Lanun ships?

If Repair is only given to Arcane Barges, however, then you'd have to team a barge up with your privateers. Which kind of defeats the purpose of HN.

And some kind of repair boost for the Lanun would be cool. What might be especially thematic would be having ships in Pirate Coves repair much faster.

Re: Naval Ideas. Dwarves could have Ironclads. The unit graphics could be stolen from the main game.

What about just giving the acane barge Channelling and allowing it to gain and cast spells as a mage? This would really represent a mage who is on the ship. Or perhaps it is a LiveShip that can cast spells or some other fantasy creation. Then the player can decide what is important for their game. Perhaps allow an upgrade path for the 2nd and third tier spells...

The problem with repair, as I see it, is that it will make Pirate/Privateer's too powerful.

At the moment, if a privateer is damaged, it either has to make it to a city to heal faster, or it has to find a secluded spot to heal up, where no one will go after it.

And repair is a same turn thing. Meaning you could attack and repair in the same turn, giving your opponent a smaller chance retaliating successfully. That is one of the major benefits of the heal spell, which is on a fairly advanced unit.

As an aside, the Lanun are ocean-fairing, so you would think there ships would heal/repair faster. Has anyone considered that in the past? Something like a 5-10% heal rate added to Lanun ships?

I toyed around with setting up arcane barges as UnitCombat_Adept and having them gain spell spheres based on number of mana sources available (as with the free sphere promotions that mages get), but there really are a limited number of promotions that seem useful at sea.

At the moment I'm testing out;

Fair Winds - Obviously useful at sea.
Fireball - Had it before, capable of killing enemy units.
Maelstrom - Stack weakener and somewhat appropriate.
Floating Eye - Situational, but may be very useful.
Repair - Requirements altered on repair to prevent it being used on Hidden Nationality units.

They also carry an "Arcane Crew" which blocks access to other types of crew, provides a +50% Magic Resistance and grants the ability to cast two spells per turn.

They've also become a national unit (limit 4) and increased to 5 Moves to allow them to keep pace with other ships of the Astronomy era (mostly a gameplay decision rather than thematic - though these ships are most likely magically propelled and so less reliant on the vagaries of the wind or the enthusiasm of the oarsmen)

====

EDIT: Also changed the Man O' War to be Strength 16 and a National Unit (Limit 4).

If Man O' Wars are upped to 16 strength does that bring back the issue of Krakens being much less useful by comparison?

I like the changes to Arcane Barges, should make them a very versatile and useful unit.

well, Kraken would need to be about 20 str now, unless the plan is to have a canon armed ship be more deadly then a Collossul Squid of Legend;)

Hmm...Arcane Crew is now making me think I may remove the Arcane Barge unit too, instead letting other ships gain arcane abilities. All the spell spheres would have to be removed when switching to another type of crew though.

Wouldn't that make navel units a little too generic? Seems like there should be more differentiation between units than just movement speed and strength.

If Man O' Wars are upped to 16 strength does that bring back the issue of Krakens being much less useful by comparison?

I like the changes to Arcane Barges, should make them a very versatile and useful unit.

well, Kraken would need to be about 20 str now, unless the plan is to have a canon armed ship be more deadly then a Collossul Squid of Legend;)

I actually made Kraken a counter unit for the Man O War instead (+25% strength vs Man O War). Reasoning being that the Man O War relies on it's sheer size and strength to overpower the smaller ships, but it is slow making escape from a Kraken difficult and also just as vulnerable from below as a smaller vessel.

It also ensures that the Kraken remains potent vs the Man O War without boosting it against all other vessels.

Hmm...Arcane Crew is now making me think I may remove the Arcane Barge unit too, instead letting other ships gain arcane abilities. All the spell spheres would have to be removed when switching to another type of crew though.

Wouldn't that make navel units a little too generic? Seems like there should be more differentiation between units than just movement speed and strength.

There's always a question as to whether a "specialist unit" is best served by creating a unit or by handling it in promotions, but I think in this case we'll be keeping them as actual units.

...Some kind of an adapted Blur spell that protects/reduces the dmg from ranged attacks (aka long ranged Man O' War cannonballs) -- imagines the wizards conjuring up some kind of mist to obscure long-ranged targetting...

That's a great idea for a water II spell that is more than a one-time buff (waterwalking), especially since archers now have a ranged attack too. Maybe make it so the tile has to have access to fresh or salt water for it to be cast?

Something that may be interesting for Amurites, maybe Body and Death, to create skeletons, and caste haste on any units in accompanying ships.

Fair winds is already the naval version of the Haste spell.
hmmm... why would you want to need to summon skeletons and cast haste on them in naval battles?

They've (Arcane Barges) also become a national unit (limit 4) and increased to 5 Moves to allow them to keep pace with other ships of the Astronomy era (mostly a gameplay decision rather than thematic - though these ships are most likely magically propelled and so less reliant on the vagaries of the wind or the enthusiasm of the oarsmen)


Just for laughs~

Newly assigned adepts report to a supervising mage onboard an Arcane Barge.

Mage: "Gentlemen, welcome aboard our newly commissioned Barge. She has state-of-the-art magical systems on board to stabilize her against the crash of the unforgiving waves, and the best propelling system amongst the rest of the fleet making our speed unmatched in the choppy seas--well maybe save the Lanun pirates. Your job is to perform regular maintenance on these systems to ensure that they are running in smooth operation. Any questions before I dismiss you?"

Curious Adept: "Sir, so why do the Lanun pirates move so fast through the waters? I've heard legends say that the notorious Black Wind moves so swiftly she must have a Kraken towing it!"

Annoyed Mage: "Our magical systems might propel us swiftly indeed, but do not underestimate the enthusiasm of their oarsmen..."

Curious Adept: "Enthusiasm...?"

Annoyed Mage: "Their oarsmen are simply slaves captured from other ships, and their enthusiasm is unmatched when facing the threat of the Cultists on board ready to drown them."

Curious Adept: "Gulp! :eek: Remind me to hide in my trunk if we're attacked by the Lanun... So.... what do we do should our propelling system fail?"

Furious Mage: "Row with your damned staves you fools! :mad:"

Fair winds is already the naval version of the Haste spell.
hmmm... why would you want to need to summon skeletons and cast haste on them in naval battles?

It's called S-K-E-L-E-T-O-N crew.

Arcane Barges:

They've also become a national unit (limit 4)

Very good. I've felt guilty about AB spam.

I feel a module coming on for Amurite, Scion, and maybe Lanun ABs.

Fair winds is already the naval version of the Haste spell.
hmmm... why would you want to need to summon skeletons and cast haste on them in naval battles?

It would be like that old barbarian ship that generated skeletons and unloaded them. Each arcane barge could create a skeleton. Just a thought.

And haste would be for troops being transported by other vessels. For example, if it is used to support transport ships. Isn't offloading 1 move? If so, I think hasted troops could offload and attack at full strength in one turn. But this would be of limited usefulness, so probably not enough reason to add it.

It's called S-K-E-L-E-T-O-N crew.

"skeleton crew" means that the ship is sailing with a crew made of as few people as possible. that's why it increases cargo capacity. T-O-R-C-H-E-D ya :p

I think Gilg was joking.

It would be like that old barbarian ship that generated skeletons and unloaded them. Each arcane barge could create a skeleton. Just a thought.

And haste would be for troops being transported by other vessels. For example, if it is used to support transport ships. Isn't offloading 1 move? If so, I think hasted troops could offload and attack at full strength in one turn. But this would be of limited usefulness, so probably not enough reason to add it.

You mean the sailors dirge? Thats in the game.

The dirge is in the game, but it now merely starts with 3 skeletons and never generates more.

I'm thinking it should have a skeleton summoning spell. This should probably be a seperate, python spell so the normal skeletons spawned from barrows don't stop the ship from summoning them. I'm thinking these skeletons should have amphibious and boarding.

Oh, I thought it still summoned. What's the treat of it now, then? (Unlees your it's first target)

The dirge is in the game, but it now merely starts with 3 skeletons and never generates more.

I'm thinking it should have a skeleton summoning spell. This should probably be a seperate, python spell so the normal skeletons spawned from barrows don't stop the ship from summoning them. I'm thinking these skeletons should have amphibious and boarding.

Since this is FF, wouldn't normal skeletons not matter anyway since summons are linked to summoner?

Oh yeah, I forgot this was in FF.

That said, I think I would more prefer a mechanic where skeletons slowly generated over time to a straight summon, so that the Dirge can create more than one skeleton at a time.

OH! Idea. Give all skeletons created by the Dirge Boarding (makes thematic sense). Then you can have a per turn mechanic for the Dirge to spawn skeletons based on how many it is currently carrying, and how many skeletons with Boarding are currently in existence.

I like the Dirge dropping a pile of skeletons off all at once; I really feel it should travel to a coast, drop a bunch off, then wander around for a while building up more, then travel to another coast and drop more off. Probably hell to get the AI working like that, but would be cool.

Giving the Dirge more than 1 at a time would be as easy as giving him a special spell which generated 3 skeletons at a time. Then anytime that all 3 of his are dead he conjures up 3 new ones.

Of course, soon(ish) I'll be creating fields to modify the limit of available units for a caster, so then you could just make the dirge be flat out capable of owning 3 skeletons at a time.

Not to hijack this thread, but in FF, how is twincast handled with summons? In FfH if a unit with Twincast summons a unit, two are created, but in FF you tie the summoned unit to the summoner already.

Would a limit of available units per caster affect how twincast works?

Twincast was already changed to allow a caster to simply cast twice, rather than gain an extra summon.

I think his question was if you wanted to use twincast with skeletons(or other perm summons), I assume how it worked before was to give you two skeletons(don't have ff avail right now, can't check this). However, since skeletons have a limit of 1, and with ff thats a caster limit, if you have it as two casts, the 2nd cast(is either darkened out, or does it replace the old skeleton with the new one), either one still leaves you with a single skeleton max. Aka, the question is should twin cast raise the summon limit on perm summons(or does it already?)?

Base FfH Twincast just creates 2 of the unit, it does not cast the spell twice. So there is no check to see if you already have a summon which might prevent creation of the second summoned skeleton.

I think that once it is possible to raise the summon limit, Twincast should do so. I was also thinking that it might be good to have the Summoner trait give Arcane units another promotion that raises their permanent summon unit; allowing Summoner leaders to have, for example, two skeletons per adept would give them a boost to permanent summons to match their current boost with temporary summons.

The summoner trait is already very very potent... Boosting permanents would be too much I think.

One should rather boost arcane so that the two can compare.

Base FfH Twincast just creates 2 of the unit, it does not cast the spell twice. So there is no check to see if you already have a summon which might prevent creation of the second summoned skeleton.

Base FFH doesn't track skeletons on a per unit basis either though iirc, it still has where for each caster of death 1 you can have 1 skeleton?(or has this changed recently, I never can remember). Does it count those two skeletons as 1(so if you only had a twin caster casting, you could get 2 skeletons per adept with death 1) or does it increase the count by 2, only allowing you to get 1 over the "limit" by using a twincaster to cast when one is 1 below the limit?

It works the last way you listed. Just gets you to your limit faster, but if you use it when you are just before the limit, can allow you to temporarily exceed the limit (and yes, the limit is Civ wide, not unit specific)

I would argue that caravels should not be obsoleted by galleons? They arrive at the same tech(optics), and privateers have a bonus against galleon, so if your opponents have privateers, the galleon is a weaker, more expensive scout. (i'm assuming that they are obsoleted by them, since they upgrade to them).

I would argue that caravels should not be obsoleted by galleons? They arrive at the same tech(optics), and privateers have a bonus against galleon, so if your opponents have privateers, the galleon is a weaker, more expensive scout. (i'm assuming that they are obsoleted by them, since they upgrade to them).

Thanks - missed that one. Originally Galleons were an Astronomy level ship but as they're now a transport for the Optics era, Caravels will upgrade into Frigates instead (which aren't "scouts", but are fast patrol ships).

Will be included in the next patch.

They aren't scouts, but they are also the best privateer killer at that age, this seems the best fit. It just seemed a little silly if you had iron, you could never build caravels :).

Since there really is no scout ship of the astronomy level, would it make sense to make caravels non-obsoleting(or to introduce one)? I could see the use for a faster, non-combat transport, defensive scout ship(diplomatic ship?) at astronomy or to perhaps give arcane barges explore rival territory, could justify it as they are using their magic to keep themselves hidden, perhaps make it a toggle, and when its on, reduce their number of spells per turn to 1?

Question: Did Arcane Barges pick up the ability to Repair? It was talked about, but I don't see anything about it in the pedia...

Question: Did Arcane Barges pick up the ability to Repair? It was talked about, but I don't see anything about it in the pedia...

It's a unit specific spell in their case (hidden away, just a clone of the old one that doesn't require Dwarven/Repair) - they should have it though. The Pedia doesn't list the Unit-Spells yet.

Ah, awesome. I haven't had time to field one yet, I just glanced at their pedia entry.