RFC Europe Wonders [Archive] - Civilization Fanatics' Forums

jessiecat

Nov 15, 2008, 07:13 AM

3Miro

Nov 15, 2008, 08:21 AM

Remove the Oracle, that was obsolete by the time the mod started, use the art for the Round Church.

jessiecat

Nov 15, 2008, 08:28 AM

Remove the Oracle, that was obsolete by the time the mod started, use the art for the Round Church.

Done! What do you think of the rest?

Cornelio

Nov 15, 2008, 08:33 AM

Comments in bold.

OK. I've come up with following revised list of Wonders, incorporating 3Miro's suggestions and assuming we can use the Civ3 wonders adapted for Civ4 as described above. Where possible I've suggested their country or city of origin.

NATIONAL WONDERS (15)

Globe Theatre (England)
Hermitage (Russia)
Heroic Epic
National Epic
National Park
Ironworks (too late?)
Oxford University (England)
West India Company
East India Company
Ivory Coast
Spice Islands Spice should be something to monopolize
Sugar Plantations
Fur Trade

These were going to be quests right? Otherwise they should be world wonders, because not every civ can conquer them. That would be really sad for the Natives :lol:
Aztec Conquest
Inca Conquest

WORLD WONDERS (40)

Stonehenge (England) -could enable Monument Building, free monuments?
The Great Wall -could provide defensive bonus? China is not in europe
Chichen Itza -castles in all cities? Neither is Chichen Itza
Mausoleum of Maussalos? If it's pre-build (e.g. you can't build it but it's already there)
The Oracle? If pre-build
The Parthenon?If pre-build
The Pyramids?If pre-build
The Temple of Solomon If pre-build
The Wailing Wall
The Great Lighthouse If pre-build
The Great Library -enables Classical Knowledge? If pre-build
The Moai Statues (renamed as something Norse?) Sound good
The University of Sankore (renamed?)
The Dome of the Rock (replaces the Spiral Minaret)
King Richard's Crusade (poss, art above)
Leonardos Workshop (poss. art above)
The Kremlin (Moscow)
St. Basils' Cathedral (Moscow) -art to be found
St. Sophia Cathedral (Kiev)
The Leaning Tower (Italy)
The Palazzo San Giorgio (Genoa) -art to be found
The Basilica San Marco (Venice) -art above
The Doges Palace (Venice) -art to be found
La Scala Opera House (Milan) -art above
The Sistine Chapel (Rome)
The Golden Bull (Hungary) -art to be found
The Round Church (Bulgaria) -art to be found
Copernicus' Observatory (Poland) poss. art above
Magellans Voyage (Portugal) poss. art above
The Belem Tower (Portugal) -art to be found
Versailles (Paris)
Notre Dame (Paris)
La Mesquita Great Mosque of Cordoba (replaces the The Taj Mahal)
The Alhambra Palace (Granada) art above
The Hanging Gardens (renamed as an Irrigation wonder in Cordoba?) The irrigation in Cordoba was thatspectacular?
The Hapsburg Palace (Vienna) -art to be found
The Brandenburg Gate (Berlin) art above
J.S Bach's Cathedral (Cologne) -could enable Protestantism? poss. art above
The Amsterdam Stock Exchange (Netherlands) -art to be found
Adam Smith's Trading Company (England) -poss. art above

jessiecat

Nov 15, 2008, 08:48 AM

I've replaced the Great Lighthouse with the Tower of Hercules in La Corunna, Spain. And the Oracle becomes the Round Church of Bulgaria. And I've renamed Chichen Itza as Krak des Chevaliers. And the Great Wall and Great Library. etc. (Trouble is I'm still editing this post). The Conquests probably should be projects or World Wonders too. Yes, the irrigation in Al Andalus was that spectacular in transforming a very dry and barren area into a rich agricultural one. I'll see if I can find the posts where this was discussed. Thanks for your observations though.

jessiecat

Nov 15, 2008, 10:44 AM

Just to bring the Proposed List of Wonders up to date, I've reposted it here.

NATIONAL WONDERS (15)

Globe Theatre (England)
Hermitage (Russia)
Heroic Epic
National Epic
National Park
Ironworks (too late?)
Oxford University (England)
West India Company
East India Company
Ivory Coast (possible project?)
Spice Islands........"
Sugar Plantations..."
Fur Trade.............."
Aztec Conquest (possible World Wonder)
Inca Conquest.............."

WORLD WONDERS (41)

The Sacred Palace (replaces the Forbidden Palace)
The Colossus -could enable Monument Building, free monuments?
The Theodosian Walls (Constantinople) replaces The Great Wall -could provide defensive bonus?
Krak des Chevaliers (replaces Chichen Itza) -castles in all cities?
The Mausoleum of Al Khalid (Aleppo, Syria) replaces The Mausoleum of Maussalos
The British Museum (replaces the Parthenon)
The Topkapi Palace (Constantinople) replaces the Pyramids
The Temple of Solomon
The Wailing Wall
The Tower of Hercules (La Coruna, Spain) replaces the Great Lighthouse
The House of Knowledge (Arabia) replaces the Great Library -enables Classical Knowledge?
The Moai Statues (renamed as something Norse?)
The University of Sankore (renamed?)
The Dome of the Rock (replaces the Spiral Minaret)
King Richard's Crusade (poss, art above)
Leonardos Workshop (poss. art above)
The Kremlin (Moscow)
St. Basils' Cathedral (Moscow) -art to be found
St. Sophia Cathedral (Kiev)
The Leaning Tower (Italy)
The Palazzo San Giorgio (Genoa) -art to be found
The Basilica San Marco (Venice) -art above
The Doges Palace (Venice) -art to be found
La Scala Opera House (Milan) -art above
The Sistine Chapel (Rome)
The Golden Bull (Hungary) -art to be found
The Jewish Quarter of Krakow (Poland) -art to be found
The Round Church (Bulgaria) replaces the Oracle
Copernicus' Observatory (Poland) poss. art above
Magellans Voyage (Portugal) poss. art above
The Belem Tower (Portugal) -art to be found
Versailles (Paris)
Notre Dame (Paris)
La Mesquita Great Mosque of Cordoba (replaces the The Taj Mahal)
The Alhambra Palace (Granada) art above
The Gardens of Al Andalus (replaces the The Hanging Gardens)
The Hapsburg Palace (Vienna) -art to be found
The Brandenburg Gate (Berlin) art above
J.S Bach's Cathedral (Cologne) -could enable Protestantism? poss. art above
The Amsterdam Stock Exchange (Netherlands) -art to be found
Adam Smith's Trading Company (England) -poss. art above

3Miro

Nov 15, 2008, 11:23 AM

We should also list the effects of the wonders. Noter Dame could be the same as in RFC, but the new ones need to be listed. The Round Church would use the Oracle graphics, but give more of Mt Rushmore effect. The Golden Bull would have the effect of Shwedagon Paya.

st.lucifer

Nov 15, 2008, 12:13 PM

OK. I've come up with following revised list of Wonders, incorporating 3Miro's suggestions and assuming we can use the Civ3 wonders adapted for Civ4 as described above. Where possible I've suggested their country or city of origin.

Comments below.

NATIONAL WONDERS (15)

Globe Theatre (England)
Hermitage (Russia)
Heroic Epic
National Epic
National Park
Ironworks (too late?)
Oxford University (England)
West India Company
East India Company
Ivory Coast (possible project?)
Spice Islands........"
Sugar Plantations..."
Fur Trade.............."
Aztec Conquest (possible World Wonder)
Inca Conquest.............."

As Cornelio suggested, I'm in favor of doing the Aztec/Inca conquests as quests that become available when certain preconditions are met.
I also think that we probably don't want to overdo the national wonder colonies - while many civs had a sugar island, a far eastern port, and a slave trading entrepot, I don't know of that many with settlements or colonies that produced spices or furs.
I think that Ironworks probably is too late. If we were going to include it, I'd favor putting it as a world wonder (Kruppworks) rather than a national one.

WORLD WONDERS (41)

The Sacred Palace (replaces the Forbidden Palace)
The Colossus -could enable Monument Building, free monuments?
The Theodosian Walls (Constantinople) replaces The Great Wall -could provide defensive bonus?
Krak des Chevaliers (replaces Chichen Itza) -castles in all cities?
The Mausoleum of Al Khalid (Aleppo, Syria) replaces The Mausoleum of Maussalos
The British Museum (replaces the Parthenon)
The Topkapi Palace (Constantinople) replaces the Pyramids
The Temple of Solomon
The Wailing Wall
The Tower of Hercules (La Coruna, Spain) replaces the Great Lighthouse
The House of Knowledge (Arabia) replaces the Great Library -enables Classical Knowledge?
The Moai Statues (renamed as something Norse?)
The University of Sankore (renamed?)
The Dome of the Rock (replaces the Spiral Minaret)
King Richard's Crusade (poss, art above)
Leonardos Workshop (poss. art above)
The Kremlin (Moscow)
St. Basils' Cathedral (Moscow) -art to be found
St. Sophia Cathedral (Kiev)
The Leaning Tower (Italy)
The Palazzo San Giorgio (Genoa) -art to be found
The Basilica San Marco (Venice) -art above
The Doges Palace (Venice) -art to be found
La Scala Opera House (Milan) -art above
The Sistine Chapel (Rome)
The Golden Bull (Hungary) -art to be found
The Jewish Quarter of Krakow (Poland) -art to be found
The Round Church (Bulgaria) replaces the Oracle
Copernicus' Observatory (Poland) poss. art above
Magellans Voyage (Portugal) poss. art above
The Belem Tower (Portugal) -art to be found
Versailles (Paris)
Notre Dame (Paris)
La Mesquita Great Mosque of Cordoba (replaces the The Taj Mahal)
The Alhambra Palace (Granada) art above
The Gardens of Al Andalus (replaces the The Hanging Gardens)
The Hapsburg Palace (Vienna) -art to be found
The Brandenburg Gate (Berlin) art above
J.S Bach's Cathedral (Cologne) -could enable Protestantism? poss. art above
The Amsterdam Stock Exchange (Netherlands) -art to be found
Adam Smith's Trading Company (England) -poss. art above

Thoughts on world wonders in general:

-41 is a lot. I'm not sure we need that many; I'm also not sure if it makes sense to reuse every wonder function from RFC or BTS. Same goes for those we have artwork for - just because we have artwork doesn't mean that it's necessarily a good idea to use it in all cases. I'd be in favor of eliminating some of the more questionable world wonders, which I think civ4 did a pretty good job of. King Richard's Crusade would be an example of this. Also on my cut list - those wonders which represent concepts with buildings that didn't exist (Adam Smith's Trading Company being a prime example). I'm fine with concepts or cultural achievements being world wonders (I think the Golden Bull is a good one), but I don't want to create fictional wonders when there are buildings or achievements that could stand in for them.

-For the ancient wonders, I wonder if we should include them pre-built in those cities that held them, but have them provide only a small cultural bonus, rather than an ability. By this, I'm mostly talking about the Pyramids and Parthenon; the Colossus, Great Library, and Great Lighthouse had been destroyed; Stonehenge existed but didn't have much relevance or cultural significance (and also doesn't really fit into a city that we'd have on the map). Doing it this way would mean that we could remove the cultural buildings from Athens and Cairo that provide such a (arguably undeserved)bonus to their owners in the service of reflecting the culture of those cities, while still granting those cities some recognition of their cultural importance.

-Some civs are probably over-represented here. I won't name them, but if we break them down by civ, it doesn't quite balance. To some degree, this is understandable and necessary, but if we've got wonders that don't have proposed functions or wonders that could be represented by other buildings or concepts elsewhere rather than by giving a civ with 4 or 5 wonders another, we might want to take that into consideration.

So, this is my suggested cut list:
-The Sacred Palace (which? where? I'd just go with Versailles - RFC only permits the construction of one FP, and it's a global rather than national wonder.)
-The House of Knowledge
-King Richard's Crusade
-Leonardo's Workshop (possibly replace with Codex Atlanticus)
-The Kremlin (as Kremlin is now the Russian UB, I'd rather just go with St. Basil's.)
-The Doge's Palace
-Copernicus's Observatory (more representative of a concept/accomplishment. If we're honoring 'astronomy achievement', the wonder should probably be something like 'Galileo's Telescope'. If we want an observatory, I'd go with Brahe's.)
-I'd cut the Belem tower and use the artwork (if we can find it) for the monument to Magellan's voyage. I realize that the tower was built in honor of da Gama's exploits, but it represents the same type of thing.
-The Hofburg (Hapsburg Palace) is mostly a post-1800 building, spectacular though it is. If we need an Austrian wonder, I'd go with Prague Castle, or possibly a Mozart composition.
-The Grand Mosque of Cordoba (I'd move the Taj Mahal equivalency to the Alhambra)
-JS Bach's Cathedral
-Adam Smith's Trading Company

I've got a couple of other suggestions for wonders, mostly on the great works side - the Principia Mathematica being the first that springs to mind - but I'll post a list of those a bit later.

3Miro

Nov 15, 2008, 12:25 PM

Depravo

Nov 15, 2008, 12:29 PM

Perhaps the 'Globe Theatre' and 'Oxford University' could be made non-specific: 'National Theatre' and 'Lyceum' or *shudder* 'Elite University' p'raps.

st.lucifer

Nov 15, 2008, 01:57 PM

We could make the Golden Bull a project like the Internet and the Manhattan Project, those were important but were not buildings. So "wonders" should not be associated with buildings in every case. For the cut list, well I tend to agree that we need to cut some things. Crusades would be different in the game, so a crusade wonder would not fit. As for the other I am more concerned with actual function rather than art and name.

I'm fine with keeping great works of art, science, and government as wonders; I just don't think that we should invent a building (Adam Smith's Trading Co; Leonardo's Workshop) to represent them.

The best argument that I can think of for making the Golden Bull a project is that you shouldn't be able to use a great architect to rush it. Other than that, I'm ok with having it as a wonder.

I think we used opera house as the Austrian UB, but that would be a good national wonder equivalent to the Globe Theater. For a less specific Oxford, 'National University' would describe institutions like Oxford, the Sorbonne, Heidelburg or Leipzig, Sevilla, etc. It's kind of a clunky name, but is marginally better than 'elite university'.

Verily

Nov 15, 2008, 02:39 PM

Cutting the Grand Mosque of Cordoba is pretty ridiculous, IMO. Otherwise I agree with st. lucifer.

Depravo

Nov 15, 2008, 02:46 PM

It's kind of a clunky name, but is marginally better than 'elite university'.

Much better. Go with that, says I.

st.lucifer

Nov 15, 2008, 02:50 PM

Cutting the Grand Mosque of Cordoba is pretty ridiculous, IMO. Otherwise I agree with st. lucifer.

If you had to choose between it and the Alhambra, which would you pick? I reasoned that the Alhambra was better known, and as we didn't have proposals for the function of either building, it was between the two. I'm fine with it going the other way.

jessiecat

Nov 16, 2008, 01:42 AM

st.lucifer

Nov 16, 2008, 11:57 AM

Thanks to everybody For their comments. I'll try to respond to them. I agree that 41 is probably too many world wonders. I can reduce that to 30. Would that be low enough?

As per balance, I agree that not all civs are represented. We still need one for Burgundy and Sweden. And a couple of civs have more than 2 (but not "4 or 5"). England, Arabia and Cordoba have 3 each. I would propose a minimum of 1 and a maximum of 2 wonders per civ. Agreed?

Are we saying that we shouldn't use any of the ancient wonders even if we replace them with something more appropriate to the mod? Some were included like the Topkapi Palace (replaces the Pyramids, same function) to give one wonder to the Ottomans. And the Theodosian Walls (replaces the Great Wall, same function) for the Byzantines. However, I agree on scrapping all but a couple to help reduce the list.

I don't agree that scrapping so many Civ 3 wonders was a good idea at all. Some of them like Magellans Voyage, Leonardos Workshop and Copernicus' Observatory would be ideal for our mod. The latter was chosen to give Poland a 2nd. wonder and is more familiar to a majority of our players than most of its possible equivalents.

I reluctantly agree to drop the Great Mosque of Cordoba in favour of the Alhambra on the grounds of familiarity but only if we retain the Gardens of Al Andalus which is more functional and historically important.

I do agree that some like the Kremlin, the House of Knowledge, the British Museum, Adam Smith's Trading Company, King Richards Crusade, J.S. Bachs Cathedral, the Sacred Palace, the Belem Tower, the Maussoleum of Al Khalid, Stonehenge and the Doges Palace should be dropped as not necessary. So, thats 11 eliminated for a start, reducing the list to 30.

I will include specific functions for each wonder with the next proposed list but I need a response from somebody (esp.st. lucifer?) to the above questions before I proceed.

My argument against including ancient wonders was simply that they should be prebuilt without their classical function - essentially, impressive monuments of the past, but obsolete in a new era. They'd give a culture bonus, but no special function beyond that.
In doing this, we'd make it possible to reassign the benefits given by the ancient wonders to more period-appropriate ones - so your ideas for the Topkapi Palace and Theodosian Walls are not only appropriate and good ideas, but this way they don't overlap in function with anything else.

While I like the 1-2 wonders per civ guideline, it may not be completely possible to follow in all cases - some parts of the world simply produced more impressive architecture, scientific, and cultural achievements. I've got a proposal for a Burgundian wonder (the monastery of Cluny), but I've got nothing for Sweden, and my family's Swedish. :D We may have to assign that one to Hitti-Litti.
So, I don't necessarily have a problem with Arabia or England or Cordoba having 3 wonders, as long as we're relatively balanced and as long as the list isn't too long. Actually, as proposed, I've cut England down to 1 wonder (the British Museum, which you put on the cut list), which is probably too few (although that goes back up to 2 if we take the Principia Mathematica or Royal Society). I'm ok with including the Grand Mosque of Cordoba if we have a clearly defined function for it which makes sense, and if it doesn't give us the appearance of over-representing one civ over another. I didn't object to the inclusion of the Gardens of al-Andalus because they had a suggested function; if the GMoC had a function that fit it better than it fit any other wonder, I'd be fine with keeping it.

As far as the Civ 3 wonders go, some of them I'm fine with (no objection to Magellan's Expedition, for instance). It's the ones that create a historically nonexistent institution to represent an accomplishment (Adam Smith's Trading Co., for example) that I have a problem with. If Adam Smith's Trading Co. had the same function and were renamed the Wealth of Nations, it wouldn't bother me at all. Make sense? So I'm fine with keeping the function of Copernicus's Observatory and renaming it Copernican Revolution (although I still feel like Galileo's Telescope would be better, that does skew things further towards Italy), or keeping the function of Leonardo's Workshop and renaming it Codex Atlanticus, or redoing the function and renaming it Mona Lisa.

If anything, I think I'd like to see more of the significant cultural advances represented as wonders over buildings that may not be well known outside of their own country. That's why I'm arguing for things like Mozart's The Marriage of Figaro over buildings like the Hofburg or Prague Castle, spectacular though they are (although in the case of the first, it's also a question of time period).

What do people think of that idea?

SadoMacho

Nov 16, 2008, 01:39 PM

st.lucifer

Nov 16, 2008, 01:47 PM

I am also in favour of adding the obselete ancient wonders (but I think by 500 AD only the pyramides are still there).
The Temple of Solomon was long destoyed by the middle ages. Rename it into the Temple Mount would do fine.
For Sweden, one could use the monument as runestones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runestones_at_Aspa#S.C3.B6_Fv1948.3B289) or the Kalmar castle giving some political bonus.
National Park could be removed, as nature preservation is not something of the timeline.
No great wall please, as we'll see the wall on the map and there are no walls in europe in the timeline

It would basically be the pyramids, parthenon, and maybe stonehenge.

As cool as the runestones are, they predate our Swedes by a long way. Kalmar castle may be more appropriate.

National park is out. As for the great wall, are you forgetting Hadrian's wall to keep out the Pictish dwarves? :D

jessiecat

Nov 17, 2008, 06:57 AM

As promised, here's a slimmed-down and much revised list of Wonders for us to consider. In all cases I've described their function and/or what they would replace in RFC.

National Wonders

National Theatre (replaces Globe Theatre)
National Gallery (replaces Hermitage)
National University (replaces Oxford University)
Royal Academy (replaces Great Library)
National Epic (as RFC)
Heroic Epic (as RFC)

Projects

East India Company
West India Company
Hanseatic Ports
Sugar Plantations
Ivory Trade
Slave Trade

Colonies

-list still under discussion

World Wonders(35)

The Sistine Chapel, Rome (as RFC)
Versailles, Paris (as RFC)
Notre Dame, Paris (as RFC)
The Leaning Tower, Pisa (as RFC)
The Tomb of Al Walid, Aleppo (replaces Mt. Rushmore)
The Theodosian Walls, Constantinople (replaces Chichen Itza, +25% defense of cities?)
Krak des Chevaliers, Lebanon (replaces the Great Wall but gives only free castles per city built)
Topkapi Palace, Constantinople (replaces the Pyramids -same effect)
Statue Of Odin, Norse (replaces the Moai Statues)
The Dome of the Rock, Jerusalem (replaces the Taj Mahal)
The Monastery of Cluny, Burgundy (replaces the Universityof Sankore)
Kalmar Castle, Sweden (replaces The Pentagon)
The Gardens of Al Andalus, Cordoba (replaces the Hanging Gardens)
The Golden Bull, Hungary (replaces the Shwedagon Paya)
The Round Church, Bulgaria (replaces Stonehenge, removes war penalties agst Orthodox civs., uses Oracle art.)
The Alhambra Palace, Granada (replaces the Parthenon)
The Brandenburg Gate, Berlin (replaces the Statue of Zeus)
The Basilica San Marco, Venice (replaces the Temple of Artemis)
The Palazzo San Giorgio, Genoa (replaces the Great Lighthouse)
The Palacio de Pena, Portugal (replaces Christo Redentor)
The Giralda Tower, Seville Spain (replaces the Spiral Minaret)
La Scala Opera House, Milan (replaces Broadway)
St. Basil's Cathedral, Moscow (replaces Rock and Roll)
St. Sophia Cathedral, Kiev (replaces Hollywood)
The Jewish Quarter of Krakov, Poland (establishes Judaism in every large city?)
The Temple Mount, Jerusalem (removes all penalties for Judaism in all cities?)
Leonardo's Inventions, Italy (as in Civ3)
The Copernican Revolution, Poland (as in Civ3)
Issac Newton's Laboratory, England (as in Civ3)
Magellan's Voyage, Portugal (as in Civ3)
Rembrandt's Masterpiece, Amsterdam (culture + happiness boost in all cities?)
Mozart's Concertos, Vienna (free theatres in all cities?)
Magna Carta, England
Aztec Conquest??
Inca Conquest??

3Miro

Nov 17, 2008, 08:10 AM

Luthers' Theses (establishes Protestantism in all your cities?) That one is already in the game as the Protestant Holy Shrine.

The Round Church can use the Oracle or Stonehenge graphics, but it would have a different effect. Something along the lines of removing the "war against brothers in faith" penalty. Bulgarians were never morally bothered to go to war with the Byzantines (and the other way around), shared Orthodox faith or not.

@sedna: be careful with the National Epic, it is already coded as the Triumphant Arch. Also do you know how to make a generic effect description show for a building. The Hungarian Stronghold has an effect not coded in XML, it is already coded in Python and C++, but there is no way to read about it in the game. We would have a similar problem with the Round Church.

jessiecat

Nov 17, 2008, 08:30 AM

sedna17

Nov 17, 2008, 11:03 AM

@sedna: be careful with the National Epic, it is already coded as the Triumphant Arch. Also do you know how to make a generic effect description show for a building. The Hungarian Stronghold has an effect not coded in XML, it is already coded in Python and C++, but there is no way to read about it in the game. We would have a similar problem with the Round Church.

Thanks for the heads-up. I don't know offhand of a good solution to simply display a description of the Hungarian Stronghold's power. Rhye added new elements to the XML schema for displaying the effect of the new stability civics (and presumably there's a modification in something like CyGameTextMgr().parseCivicInfo to deal with it). We could always go this route -- it's the "proper" way to add information about buildings. Or I can look for a way to fake it.

3Miro

Nov 17, 2008, 11:17 AM

The possible problem is that we would have to change the description of every building in the XML (i.e. add a new tag with <bDamageEnemy>0</bDamageEnemy>) I don't know how much trouble that would be for you, I know that you are using some software to edit XML, all I really have is a good text editor.

st.lucifer

Nov 17, 2008, 11:38 AM

OK. I've made those changes. How do you feel about the rest?

I like most of them. Some of the reassignments are quite clever.

One set of objections - we don't have the hit singles/musicals/movies resources, so replacing Hollywood/Graceland, etc. wouldn't have the same effect. Those should be culture-bomb wonders - maybe 12 culture for one; +100% or +50% for others. Have one give one free artist in every city; one gives 3 free artists in its host city (it'll be a late-game wonder, so it won't be as unbalanced as that sounds); the third might double the effect of theaters or give a free theater in each city. However, since two of the proposed culture wonders are religious in nature, I wonder if it might be better for, say, St. Basil's to double the happiness and culture of temples, and make Mozart's Concertos the culture wonder. We could find a similar use for St. Sophia's (perhaps use the old JS Bach's cathedral function - +2 happiness in all cities?), and use Rembrandt's Masterpiece as our third culture wonder. I'd keep La Scala the way it is.

For Kalmar Castle - the function of the Kremlin wouldn't be very useful as currently written, would it? It would only function with Constitutional Monarchy, which is a pretty big limitation.
As Kalmar Castle is one of our last wonders to be built, I wonder if it might be better as the Pentagon replacement, with the Tomb of al-Khalid being reassigned your earlier suggested function (replacing the Mausoleum of Maussolos).

I also question the inclusion of the Hapsburg Dynasty on grounds of the vagueness of the accomplishment - what makes it a wonder (not intended as a hostile question)? While it was certainly an impressive network of alliances and royal marriages, it's spread over a long time period and involved a large number of people. If we're going to include a political great work, I'd argue for The Prince (civ-neutral), or the Magna Carta (English).

How do others feel about the inclusion of Aztec/Inca conquests as wonders, rather than as quests? I thought that Cornelio's idea that they'd be quests which required accumulating a great general and a certain number of ships/units was a good one.

This is a very good list.

3Miro

Nov 17, 2008, 11:51 AM

I wonder if we can make the Kalmar Castle allow rushing of buildings. No objection to the other one either.

Hapsburg Dynasty is in a way part of the Austrian UHV.

Aztec and Inca conquests were actually achieved by very few people. Pizarro had only 2,500 colonists, that is couple of settlers and 4-5 gunpowder units. One can load that in two galleons. The fleet was impressive in terms of the largest thing to cross the ocean at this time, however, it was not that big for European standards. It should be wonder/project not a quest.

jessiecat

Nov 17, 2008, 12:08 PM

Thanks for your comments. I certainly didn't mean to include Hit Singles or whatever. That'd be like Elvis turning up in the desert singing like he used to in Civ2:lol: I agree that those 3 could give big culture boosts like they do in RFC. Just have to tweak them a bit for timing and balance.
You're right about Kalmar Castle. I forgot it would be so late. Why not something similiar to the German UP giving free upgrades to units late in the game? Pretty powerful I know but if it was late enough it could quite dramatic but too late to be really overpowering.
My inclusion of the Tomb of Al Khalid was to give an early but moderate military boost to any civ who built it. So not too expensive and available to every early civ. A lot of our players may not realize who he was but he was the most outstanding general of the Rashidun period following the death of the Prophet, personally leading the conquest of Syria and Iraq. Sort of the Rommel of his day.
I'm undecided about the Hapsburgs. Would a diplomatic boost be enough to justify its inclusion? I'm easy about dropping it frankly. As per the Conquests. Maybe they would be better as projects. But as someone said, if everybody could have them, pity the poor natives. Again I'll leave that decision up to others. I'm glad you like the list though. I think we're getting closer to a finalized one now.

Edit: I like the idea of Magna Carta rather than the Hapsburgs, esp. as we've almost wiped the English off our list.

sedna17

Nov 17, 2008, 12:09 PM

3Miro

Nov 17, 2008, 12:24 PM

jessiecat

Nov 17, 2008, 12:47 PM

@sedna17, I will figure out how it works and I will add the tags to the existing XML. You can code the other new buildings if you want, we can add the tags to those when we are merging them.

@jessiecat: Magna Carta makes sense to be in. According to Wikipedia, Kalmar Castle was build in 12th century which is about mid game for us. Giving it German UP power is too much, something like the Pentagon would be more appropriate. Tomb of Al Khalid could have a Mt Rushmore effect.

I agree that Kalmar Castle should replace the Pentagon and that Magna Carta should replace the Hapsburgs. I'm OK with the Tomb replacing Mt. Rushmore. I'll edit them above.

My bad.:sad: His actual name was Khalid ibn al Walid. Al Khalid was the main Pakistani battle tank named in honour of him. I could change that to Al Walid or leave it as it is.

3Miro

Nov 17, 2008, 01:00 PM

My bad.:sad: His actual name was Khalid ibn al Walid. Al Khalid was the main Pakistani battle tank named in honour of him. I could change that to Al Walid or leave it as it is.

You are the historian, I guess you should pick the correct name.

sedna17

Nov 17, 2008, 02:41 PM

@sedna17, I will figure out how it works and I will add the tags to the existing XML. You can code the other new buildings if you want, we can add the tags to those when we are merging them.

@3Miro. Hope you haven't done this yet. Apparently you can just do a <HELP>Describe Unique Effect</HELP> in BuildingInfos, so that'll be much easier.

3Miro

Nov 17, 2008, 03:16 PM

:crazyeye: 2/3 of the way there. Anyway I will go all the way, if I figure it out correctly, special effects such as that of the Round Church would be easier to code.

3Miro

Nov 17, 2008, 04:01 PM

@sedna, here is the new Buildings ans BuildingsScheme files. I hope this doesn't harm your progress.

SadoMacho

Nov 18, 2008, 02:16 PM

to replace Hollywood/graceland/...
Carmina Burana: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmina_Burana

Verily

Nov 18, 2008, 03:45 PM

Another suggestion, although it belongs to a non-included civ, is the Book of Kells, maybe just providing a bit of culture in every city (but not a Monument). Since the La Scala Opera House is on the list but Milan is not in RFCE, it could be included.

civmademepoor

Nov 19, 2008, 11:46 AM

Perhaps a more appropriate replacement for the Hit singles/movies/soccer games pieces would be relics/pilgrimages. I can see Santiago de Compestella, Cantebury Cathedral, the Imam Ali Mosque and the Hajj.

On another note, the Mausolleum existed, kind of, but the city it was in did not. The lighthouse also existed until the 14th century, and, of course, the Colosseum is still around, if not entirely functional.

3Miro

Nov 19, 2008, 11:50 AM

Are you guys talking about wonders that give extra culture (+50%) or wonders that give resources. All colonies would be wonders that give resources. For the culture, well I personally could loose the extra culture at the end of the game, it hardly makes significant difference.

We could add some earlier purley culture boosting wonders (other than the national gallery).

Barak

Nov 19, 2008, 11:54 AM

I agree that colonies fill the recourse need. More often than not, I win games using Culture, so late game culture wonders are always advantageous.

3Miro

Nov 19, 2008, 12:06 PM

OK, so add culture wonders, adding Cathedrals and the national Gallery, you don't need one or two tops (IMO).

Barak

Nov 19, 2008, 12:21 PM

That would be fine with me.

operafantom

Nov 25, 2008, 08:48 AM

st.lucifer

Nov 25, 2008, 09:06 AM

I have an idea about a Hungarian National Wonder with strongholds. In the middle ages there was a stronghold system in Hungary against the Ottomans. Maybe that could be in the game and there would needed 8 or I don't know how many strongholds built to make it. What about it?

Two things:

First, it's not possible for each civ to have its own unique national wonder. Actually, I should say that this would be unlike both standard civ and standard RFC. It may actually be codeable, but I don't think it's a good plan.
Secondly, the stronghold system is already represented as the Hungarian UP.

operafantom

Nov 26, 2008, 09:39 AM

Allright I see.

jessiecat

Nov 28, 2008, 06:06 AM

Just found that someone has done the art for our Topkapi Palace wonder. This should be perfect IMO.

st.lucifer

Nov 28, 2008, 10:03 AM

Just found that someone has done the art for our Topkapi Palace wonder. This should be perfect IMO.

That's a really cool power for the wonder, too. I wonder how hard it is to code? Where did you borrow it from?

jessiecat

Nov 28, 2008, 10:09 AM

That's a really cool power for the wonder, too. I wonder how hard it is to code? Where did you borrow it from?

Got it from the Downloads section on the CFC home page. And its already coded for Civ 4 like the other art I got from there. I just check there sometimes to see what's new.:D

Algeroth

Nov 29, 2008, 08:39 AM

I know it's probably only a pet peeve of mine, but could we get rid of all the wonders that aren't building? Please?

I really bugs me up when you can rush a Mozart sonatas with great architect (But this could be explained via the Freemasons thing) Why we couldn't have things like magna charta or golden Bule as an project?

I'm completely happy if we could find a building that would represent a concept very well - so we could have Versailles instead of Ich bin der Staat project. But we should find such a building.

Speaking of, could i propose another effect for Versailles? Instated of second capital, why we don't let emulate this concentration camp for nobles by unlimited number of aristocrats in the city where this wonder is build?

Cethegus

Nov 29, 2008, 03:49 PM

st.lucifer

Nov 29, 2008, 05:00 PM

I was the one who made the proposal for more cultural achievements as wonders, so I guess it's up to me to defend it.

I can understand the argument against cultural works/achievements. They aren't 'wonders' in the sense that the Pyramids or the Colossus are/were; they don't stand as massive monuments to past cultures, reflecting the glory of a fallen civilization, which is more or less the definition of a wonder.

That being said, I'd argue that the cultural wonders proposed here are more important to our modern landscape than any of those older buildings are. The original Globe Theater may have burned to the ground, but the works of Shakespeare enjoy wider influence and exposure than ever. There may be no physical manifestation of the Golden Bull or the Copernican revolution, but those achievements have been absorbed into our global culture in ways no building could have been.

Additionally, some of the wonders of the Civ series are put in as placeholders for these accomplishments. Was there anything remarkable about Copernicus's observatory, when it was compared to Brahe's, or Galileo's? Was Magellan's ship a better model than those of his contemporaries? Is it the Globe theater we are immortalizing, for its acoustics or architecture, or the works of the most famous man associated with it? Some of the Civ wonders are even speculative, as with Cure for Cancer in Civ 1. What I've argued for is a move away from that model, which I view as inappropriate, to celebrate the achievements themselves.

Finally, we've tried to spread the wonders out among each of our civs, so that all are represented and none are over-represented. This is challenging for some - not all of our civs have an iconic building or monument that we can use for a global wonder. Even some of those that we are including, such as the Round Church for Bulgaria, are not well known outside of their home countries. The cultural achievements of some civs are far more widely known (and frankly, important) than their architecture.

Now, the issue you raised about great engineers is a good one. Certainly, it doesn't make sense for an engineer (or whatever we're calling an engineer - an architect, I believe?) to be able to rush Mozart's Concertos or the Magna Carta. Perhaps it does make more sense to make those projects rather than wonders, and I see no reason to object to that argument.

What do others think?

Incidentally, I like Cethegus's proposal for repurposing Versailles. Perhaps we should make the Summer Palace into a global wonder instead, to replace it?

jessiecat

Nov 29, 2008, 06:01 PM

I agree that wonders need to be more than just buildings. It is also right that we should have a fair mix of cultural achievements to represent the advance of civilisation in our mod. I like wonders and still get a certain pleasure when I've managed to patiently build one after so many turns. I guess I'm one of those players who gets far more satisfaction from a good cultural or diplomatic win than a purely military victory.
But the issue of rushing wonders with engineers is something that has always concerned me in the same way that whipping is used to speed production. We do it only because it's allowed and it gets the desired result. But in the end it's just another lazy exploit like squatting or using World Builder in gameplay. What would we do without it? Maybe play with a bit more planning and intelligence? For my part, I wouldn't want to have whipping or rush-building in our mod at all.
What I would rather see is the achievement of building a wonder is rewarded with something a lot more significant than a few extra culture or happiness points. Maybe more like golden ages, free techs, upgrades for all units, a major stability, health or diplomatic boost, etc., something which actually contributes to our game play. Just rushing lots of wonders for the sake of it seems more like collecting baseball cards or stamps than any kind of significant or meaningful achievement IMO. (Nothing against baseball cards or stamps BTW :D)

Cethegus

Nov 30, 2008, 01:44 AM

Jessiecat's making a good argument. Would it then be possible that great engineers' production production hurrying could be removed from the mod altogether and replaced with a "great person building" that gives production? Perhaps something like a forge?

That way cultural wonders could stay as wonders they deserve to be and couldn't be rushed in any unnatural way. (Then again, we do have tree-chopping in the game still? Not saying we should give it up, just pointing it out.) If we would replace the Great Engineer function with something else, they wouldn't be made obsolete still. Or are settled Great Engineers (Architechs?) supposed to represent this by themselves?

Since I can't check it out myself right away; how is Industrial Revolution represented in this mod? Is the game supposed to last that far and are there factories present in the mod already?
If yes to the first question and no the second, perhaps the new proposed Great Engineer building (I'm sure there are engineering academies in Europe :rolleyes:) could be enabled with the introduction of a new tech much in the same way Military Academies work in BtS, being enabled with Military Science. Of course the proposed academies could be made as wonders, but I'd like to see a little more variety in the game than just who's the first to research which tech and who gets to build which wonder first. I'm sure others want a little more variety as well. Not even Academies are handed out to everyone in regular Civ, they're something special you have to work for and this way everyone would get a chance to be known for his country's special architechture.

Which reminds me, they could be made as national wonders (think of Scotland Yard) so no Civ could just rush engineers and become a production superpower in late medieval Europe. What do others think of this suggestion? Scrap production hurrying and replace it with a GP-only building with certain prerequirements?

Algeroth

Nov 30, 2008, 02:37 AM

I have no objection's against cultural/social/political achievements to be represent in this mod. But we should distinguish between project's and wonders. Both pyramids and US democracy are things burgess floods to visit and hope to emulate, but only one would stand there for another millennia to come if the land will be overran by enemy soldiers?

There is a technical difference between Project and Wonder in Civ mechanic. The later is a whore (Nothing against whores BTW) and will serve to anyone who will take them. But Projects have no cities in which they are located (and that means they can't provide a bonus to only one city (Beside capitol, IMHO), and can be removed only by the complete destruction of civilization.

And while the wonders in Civ have some cultural element in them we should better ask what could be better emulate as project better than wonder. What impact they have? Is Magna Charta better represented by some house or as a change in the society that can't be undone? And are Mozart's sonatas so special that they changed life of every peasant in Tyrol? Or are they better a result of certain cultural clime of Wien of that time and could be better represented by some grand-opera-building?

jessiecat

Nov 30, 2008, 02:51 AM

@ Cathegus. I like your idea of a great person building maybe similiar to the Academy but having a specfic function depending on the type of Great Person. For example a settled Great Engineer could build a School of Architecture or a Mining Institute that increases the production of certain buildings or mines in the city. Or a Great Artist could build something like a Royal Academy of Art which boosts the cultural output of certain buildings. In the same way that a Great Spy can build Scotland Yard as you say.
What I'm trying to avoid is the possibility that a GP can pop a World Wonder in one turn rather than the required 50 or 60 turns. I'm not against increasing the production rate of wonder building but GP powers should be made more gradual and incremental rather than instantaneous.
As for your question about the Industrial Revolution and factories, the mod ends in 1800 when the I.R. had barely started and the factory system didn't really exist until the wider application of steam power. I think we've seen it more as an end of tech tree similiar to Future Tech in BTS. I think its best to keep it in that context for now.
I like your ideas though. I think we should look again at GPs and what we really want them to do in this mod.:)

Algeroth

Nov 30, 2008, 03:00 AM

A rework of Great persons? Great. Expect my kibitzing there.

st.lucifer

Nov 30, 2008, 06:55 PM

3Miro

Nov 30, 2008, 07:28 PM

We should always keep in mind that there is a level of abstraction in the Civ's system of wonders. St. Lucifer made a good point with the Shakespeare's Theater, also noone immigrated and became a US a specialist because of the Statue of Liberty (I spend here 8 years before I went to NY to see the statue). The SoL is just a symbol of an underlying ideals within the US society. In the same way, the big Bulgarian achievement was the separation of Bulgarian church from both Rome's and Constantinople's influence and Bulgarian becoming the first recognized Christian language outside the original three. The Round Church is simply a symbol of the achievement.

The strength of the Civ series comes from the fact, that Civ doesn't get bogged down in perfect simulation of history or over political correctness. The developers are not afraid to sacrifice some "correctness" to gain meaningful improvement in gameplay. We should follow similar philosophy.

I have no problem with removing the rush factor for the Engineers, however, we have to make sure they don't become useless. In general we are introducing many changes to the gameplay, our game is a lot less like Civ then RFC is. The outcome would be interesting to see, but we should prepare for a period of tedious tweaking and re-balancing.

Proposal: Engineers/Architects can build: Great Forge +5 hammers +25% hammer bonus. That way it would make sense to build in any city.

Cethegus

Dec 01, 2008, 06:01 AM

Proposal: Engineers/Architects can build: Great Forge +5 hammers +25% hammer bonus. That way it would make sense to build in any city.

I had something similiar in mind, regarding the effects. I'm sure there are engineering academies even in Paris or Copenhagen, although in RFC they're few of the least productive capital cities in all of Europe.
So, not only percental bonus but solid effects as well. :) I like the suggestion.

Maybe we can work out something out of this. Should we keep this discussion in this thread or nominate a new thread for brainstorming for the new GP buildings?

jessiecat

Dec 01, 2008, 07:00 AM

I had something similiar in mind, regarding the effects. I'm sure there are engineering academies even in Paris or Copenhagen, although in RFC they're few of the least productive capital cities in all of Europe.
So, not only percental bonus but solid effects as well. :) I like the suggestion.

Maybe we can work out something out of this. Should we keep this discussion in this thread or nominate a new thread for brainstorming for the new GP buildings?

I like 3Miro's idea. It could also be applied to other Great People as well as in the settled Great Spy founding its own building, as has already been mentioned.
As for starting yet another thread, I think we should keep the discussion here. There are so many threads already. Soon we'll end up with sub-threads within threads within sub-forums.:eek: Enough already!!:lol:

Cethegus

Dec 01, 2008, 07:25 AM

I like 3Miro's idea. It could also be applied to other Great People as well as in the settled Great Spy founding its own building, as has already been mentioned.
As for starting yet another thread, I think we should keep the discussion here. There are so many threads already. Soon we'll end up with sub-threads within threads within sub-forums.:eek: Enough already!!:lol:

Good point. :lol: So, is the general idea here that the possible Engineering Academy (I like the idea) would be a GP building or a building that can be built after settling an engineer in the city? Is the latter even possible to code?

As it is, I think +5 solid hammers and +25% production would a good addition. Should it be a national wonder or like Academies (perhaps they should be renamed), available to be built in any city you like by a GP? There is a National Gallery national wonder, after all.

Whitefire

Dec 04, 2008, 05:54 AM

Is The Silk Road slated for a Colony project? If not, it would be nice to have it added in. It's effect would be to rush the spawn of certain new resources in your territory.

micbic

Dec 04, 2008, 06:27 AM

In the fashion of the Engineering Academy, some other buildings could be...

Art Academy: +50% Culture, Foreign nations get a +1 modifier(?)
Trade Center: +50% Economy in the city, +3 food

st.lucifer

Dec 04, 2008, 10:45 AM

Is The Silk Road slated for a Colony project? If not, it would be nice to have it added in. It's effect would be to rush the spawn of certain new resources in your territory.

The Silk Road is represented by the silk plantations next to Damascus and Aleppo, representing the terminii of that trade route. The idea was that small amounts of silk would be available on the map, but would require either being friendly enough with Arabia (surprisingly possible, even with a -14 modifier - this should probably be fixed) to convince them to trade, or forming an unstable crusader state with port access. Silks are also available as a colonial resource, late in the game.

Whitefire

Dec 04, 2008, 11:55 AM

How about Marco Polo's expedition?

st.lucifer

Dec 04, 2008, 02:19 PM

How about Marco Polo's expedition?

Makes sense to me. Come up with a function, and I doubt anyone will object to its inclusion.

micbic

Dec 04, 2008, 02:28 PM

Makes sense to me. Come up with a function, and I doubt anyone will object to its inclusion.

Is it technically possible to use them as corporations instead of colonial projects?

3Miro

Dec 04, 2008, 02:59 PM

Could be Project/Wonder, corporation and/or UHV (create x merchant by year y). That is part of the Dutch UHV, but either way.

jessiecat

Dec 04, 2008, 04:29 PM

How about Marco Polo's expedition?

What about it? I know it is in all our Western history books and part of our shared Euro-centric folk history. Sort of like Columbus "discovering" America. But was he the first European to travel to China? No. And hardly the first person. Arab traders had been travelling regularly to China for centuries. Who kept open the Silk Road after the decline of the Romans anyway? It may have re-awokened interest in the East in Venice and Christian Europe for a short period but even that contact was soon to be broken by the Seljuk and Mongol invasions which closed that avenue of trade with China foreever. Hence the need to find an alternate route to India and the Spice Islands which prompted the explorations of the Portugese and Spanish. How did Marco Polo contribute to that? Not much aside to a brief consumer interest in exotic imports and a flurry of media hype. Hardly qualifies as as GP or a Wonder. Maybe a short-term Venetian trading company at best. (Which expires in 1500?).

3Miro

Dec 04, 2008, 05:26 PM

jessiecat is the expert so I go with him. Under the circumstances we should make Marco Polo a Great Artist that gives cultural boost with his great work :)

st.lucifer

Dec 04, 2008, 05:51 PM

Is it technically possible to use them as corporations instead of colonial projects?

We had plans/ideas for corporations already proposed, but they're going to be one of the last things we tackle. The widely accepted proposal involved replacing corporations with monastic orders, banking families, and military orders.

Actually, though, since you bring it up - it would make sense to make 'found X corporation' one of the UHV conditions for the Dutch, Venetians, Genoans, English, and/or others, depending on which ones we choose.

jessiecat

Dec 04, 2008, 11:09 PM

jessiecat is the expert so I go with him. Under the circumstances we should make Marco Polo a Great Artist that gives cultural boost with his great work :)

Perhaps I was a little dismissive of the idea. And I am certainly no expert. Just a history guy with opinions. Marco Polo and his family were important in reestablishing Eastern trade contacts that had been lost in the Dark Ages. As were several other families at the time. I think its right to make him a Great Artist as his explorations certainly added to European culture and knowlege of China and India at the time. In fact I'm surprised he's not on our GP list already.

Whitefire

Dec 05, 2008, 04:22 AM

Makes sense to me. Come up with a function, and I doubt anyone will object to its inclusion.

Same function that I mentioned for the Silk Road. Resources inside of your cultural boundaries spawn immediately, instead of waiting for the spawn dates.

Cethegus

Dec 05, 2008, 05:02 AM

Actually, though, since you bring it up - it would make sense to make 'found X corporation' one of the UHV conditions for the Dutch, Venetians, Genoans, English, and/or others, depending on which ones we choose.

I like that idea. One question though: Having read Don Rosa's comics I know there was sort of a Templar financial empire around the time of the crusades and I was wondering... could the founding of a certain "corporation" be bound to time and nation much like it is already in the case of Yerushalayim and Judaism in regular RFC? If we don't ditch the idea of including the Templar "corporation" in the game (I'm no expert on the case though), it could very well require materials found in the Arab lands and thus encourage starting the Crusades. If the owner of the corporation could be predestined as Papal States unless some other civilization founds them first (IIRC their HQ was in Paris, France), this would perhaps make it a lot more tempting for the Roman Church to pressure other nations into the crusades. However, this leaves wide in the open the question should the corporation spawn at a certain date by itself if the Papal States was played by a human player.

Templar Corporation:
- predestined spawn date in Rome, France should be able to compete for them
- should require resources that are found in the Middle-East
- not a necessary addition

st.lucifer

Dec 05, 2008, 10:25 AM

I like that idea. One question though: Having read Don Rosa's comics I know there was sort of a Templar financial empire around the time of the crusades and I was wondering... could the founding of a certain "corporation" be bound to time and nation much like it is already in the case of Yerushalayim and Judaism in regular RFC? If we don't ditch the idea of including the Templar "corporation" in the game (I'm no expert on the case though), it could very well require materials found in the Arab lands and thus encourage starting the Crusades. If the owner of the corporation could be predestined as Papal States unless some other civilization founds them first (IIRC their HQ was in Paris, France), this would perhaps make it a lot more tempting for the Roman Church to pressure other nations into the crusades. However, this leaves wide in the open the question should the corporation spawn at a certain date by itself if the Papal States was played by a human player.

Templar Corporation:
- predestined spawn date in Rome, France should be able to compete for them
- should require resources that are found in the Middle-East
- not a necessary addition

The Templars were one of the corporations on our list, don't worry. No corporation would have a predestined spawn date - there were Templars from and in every major Western power at the time, so any of them could realistically have a claim on the organization.

I'm going to wait to make up a thread on corporation replacements, because there's already a lot going on and a lot done with the topic already.

Cethegus

Dec 05, 2008, 12:19 PM

Alright, thanks. I just thought it would make sense for the Papal States to claim it, because of them being a major player in getting the Crusades going and all. Other than that, there's reason why the Papal States should have a "monopoly" over them.

But yes, you have a good point. There's a perfectly good reason for all nations to have an equal standing when it comes to the Templars.

By the way, when we're still talking about the Papal States I have a question regarding the Papal States' special position among the Christian nations. If the PS controls the Church of the Nativity and has recognized Catholicism as its state religion, could its special position be represented so that if a Catholic nation declares war on the controller of the Catholic holy building (if the controller is Catholic as well) [difference between PS and Arabs], the diplomatic penalty that results from starting the war could be bound to the holy building itself and the state religion instead of the Papal States specifically? I suggested a different purpose for the Papal UHV in the Papal States thread and I wondered if the holy buildings could be given more importance among the followers of the same faith in RFCE.

mitsho

Dec 05, 2008, 01:10 PM

Trade Center: +50% Economy in the city, +3 food

What is a Trade Center? I suggest "Trade Fair" as the name for the thing, makes more sense ;)

st.lucifer

Dec 05, 2008, 03:00 PM

Same function that I mentioned for the Silk Road. Resources inside of your cultural boundaries spawn immediately, instead of waiting for the spawn dates.

That's a cool proposal, but it would definitely be of limited use for most civs. While potatoes and rice will be available on the map post-colonization, there aren't any late-spawning luxury resources. We could potentially make it so that a random forest in the builder's territory adds silk, and a random river grassland gets rice.

Jessiecat, your points about Polo's expedition are valid, although it's important to note that he made the journey during the Pax Mongolica - the subsequent breakup of the Mongol empire was what cut the silk road forever. Still, the symbolism of the journey and the fact that it was well-chronicled is important, and Whitefire's proposed wonder isn't too powerful. We could make similar arguments for inclusion of a Journey of Ibn Batutta wonder or project, which could grant access to different resources (perhaps spices and something else?) than Polo's expedition.

Certainly, both Marco Polo and Ibn Battuta should be included as great merchants.

sedna17

Dec 06, 2008, 09:44 AM

I'm going to start adding in some of the easy/uncontroversial wonders from Jessiecat's latest list. This is a going to take a while.

I thought it would be useful to have the information on colonial projects posted in this thread too. As I understand it (please correct me), Cornelio has posted this suggestion for how colonial projects work:

A new list, shrunk to 10 colonies.

West India Company (National)
----Precondition for WIC colonies
East India Company (National)
----Precondition for EIC colonies

WIC
Gold Coast
----4 slaves, 2 gold
Ivory Coast
----4 ivory, 2 slaves
Cuban Plantations (100% building with slaves)
----4 tobacco, 2 coffee
Brazil (100% building with slaves)
----4 sugar, 2 tobacco
Hudson bay company
----6 fur

EIC
Far Eastern Treaty Port (National)
----1 tea
Indian Trading Post (National)
----1 silk
East Indies (100% building with slaves)
----4 spices, 2 coffee
Malaysia (100% building with slaves)
----4 sugar, 2 spice
Cape Town
----4 wine, ???? +1 stability for EIC colonies????

6 slaves
2 gold
4 ivory
6 tobacco
4 coffee
8 sugar
6 fur
6 spices
4 wine
tea and silk are national

All regions are in (N-America, S-America, Caribbean, W-Africa, S-Africa, India, East Indies, China)

St. Lucifer was interested in developing his own list and then we'd combine these ideas, and I think we're still waiting on this. It would be useful to get these colonial projects settled and coded so that we can add in some more UHVs.

jessiecat

Dec 06, 2008, 11:31 AM

I have only 2 objections to the list of colonies as proposed.
1. The Hudson's Bay Company did not exist until almost 1800. The bulk of the North American fur trade was carried out by the French from Quebec and Montreal from the early 1600's. It was only the defeat of the French in Canada in 1759 which allowed the British to establish a monopoly on the fur trade. Better to rename it to the Quebec colony.
2. Capetown had little economic importance before the mid 1700s. Whereas the East African trade in slaves, ivory and spices had been well established by the Arabs based at Zanzibar for at least the last 800 years of our mod. Why not rename as the Swahili Coast as originally suggested?

st.lucifer

Dec 06, 2008, 01:06 PM

jessiecat

Dec 07, 2008, 01:27 AM

As promised, here's a slimmed-down and much revised list of Wonders for us to consider. In all cases I've described their function and/or what they would replace in RFC.

National Wonders

National Theatre (replaces Globe Theatre)
National Gallery (replaces Hermitage)
National University (replaces Oxford University)
Royal Academy (replaces Great Library)
National Epic (as RFC)
Heroic Epic (as RFC)

Projects

East India Company
West India Company
Hanseatic Ports
Sugar Plantations
Ivory Trade
Slave Trade

Colonies

-list still under discussion

World Wonders(35)

The Sistine Chapel, Rome (as RFC)
Versailles, Paris (as RFC)
Notre Dame, Paris (as RFC)
The Leaning Tower, Pisa (as RFC)
The Tomb of Khaled ibn Walid, Aleppo (replaces Mt. Rushmore)
The Theodosian Walls, Constantinople (replaces Chichen Itza, +25% defense of cities?)
Krak des Chevaliers, Lebanon (replaces the Great Wall but gives only free castles per city built)
Topkapi Palace, Constantinople (replaces the Pyramids -same effect)
Statue Of Odin, Norse (replaces the Moai Statues)
The Dome of the Rock, Jerusalem (replaces the Taj Mahal)
The Monastery of Cluny, Burgundy (replaces the Universityof Sankore)
Kalmar Castle, Sweden (replaces The Pentagon)
The Gardens of Al Andalus, Cordoba (replaces the Hanging Gardens)
The Golden Bull, Hungary (replaces the Shwedagon Paya)
The Round Church, Bulgaria (replaces Stonehenge, removes war penalties agst Orthodox civs., uses Oracle art.)
The Alhambra Palace, Granada (replaces the Parthenon)
The Brandenburg Gate, Berlin (replaces the Statue of Zeus)
The Basilica San Marco, Venice (replaces the Temple of Artemis)
The Palazzo San Giorgio, Genoa (replaces the Great Lighthouse)
The Palacio de Pena, Portugal (replaces Christo Redentor)
The Giralda Tower, Seville Spain (replaces the Spiral Minaret)
La Scala Opera House, Milan (replaces Broadway)
St. Basil's Cathedral, Moscow (replaces Rock and Roll)
St. Sophia Cathedral, Kiev (replaces Hollywood)
The Jewish Quarter of Krakov, Poland (establishes Judaism in every large city?)
The Temple Mount, Jerusalem (removes all penalties for Judaism in all cities?)
Leonardo's Inventions, Italy (as in Civ3)
The Copernican Revolution, Poland (as in Civ3)
Issac Newton's Laboratory, England (as in Civ3)
Magellan's Voyage, Portugal (as in Civ3)
Rembrandt's Masterpiece, Amsterdam (culture + happiness boost in all cities?)
Mozart's Concertos, Vienna (free theatres in all cities?)
Magna Carta, England
Aztec Conquest??
Inca Conquest??

Just to keep things up to date, this was the most recent list I proposed. It would be good to get a few of these that we are agreed on up and running ASAP.

Cethegus

Dec 07, 2008, 03:27 AM

For how many wonders can be found graphics already? Which ones need to be created original artwork?

jessiecat

Dec 07, 2008, 04:11 AM

For how many wonders can be found graphics already? Which ones need to be created original artwork?

We've got art for over half and I may be able to find a couple more. but the rest we need original artwork for.
ie.
Krak des Chevalers
The Dome of the Rock (maybe Tai Mahal art?)
The Theodosian Walls ( maybe Great wall button)
The Statue of Odin (Statue of Zeus or Colossus art)
Kalmar Castle
The Golden Bull
Palazzo San Giorgio
The Giralda Tower
St. Basils Cathedral
St. Sophia Cathedral
The Jewish Quarter
The Temple Mount
Rembrandts Masterpiece
Mozarts Concertos
Magna Carta

EDIT I've found a bit more art that might stand in for the Dome of the Rock, Tomb of Khaled ibn Walid and others. Bethlehem could stand in for the Jewish Quarter and the Doges Palace for the Palazzo San Giorgio.

civmademepoor

Dec 07, 2008, 11:16 AM

Since we already have a dome of the rock are in the holy building, might it be better to use that and chose something else for the Islamic holy city marker?

jessiecat

Dec 07, 2008, 02:24 PM

Since we already have a dome of the rock are in the holy building, might it be better to use that and chose something else for the Islamic holy city marker?

Not really. As we are using the Masjid Al-Haram which is founded in Damascus (instead of Mecca) when Islam is established, we could still have the Dome of the Rock as a World Wonder.

sedna17

Dec 07, 2008, 03:53 PM

I've got art for the Theodosian walls and the "Norse Wonder" (which I'm making the Shrine of Uppsala instead).

st.lucifer

Dec 07, 2008, 03:55 PM

How easy is it to change the function of wonders once they're coded in? There have been some good suggestions since the original wonder list, and we may want to revisit some others.

Also, in the current list, I think we had agreed that there would be no Broadway/Graceland/Wembley analogues, right?

sedna17

Dec 07, 2008, 04:13 PM

Wonder effects are either achievable in XML or Python. Generally speaking, mix-matching of any pre-existing building/wonder is easy to add via XML and thus easy to change. It is quite easy to grab an existing wonder and slap a new name/art on it.

Truly new effects will normally be done in python. In my current work I've been playing with Leonardo's workshop -- due to changes inherent in RFC this will require work in the DLL (i.e. C). Almost all things are possible here, but relatively more time-consuming, since they require some extensive testing and debugging to make sure they work.

That said, once we have powers and artwork in, swapping those around is always easy. So if ya'll decide that the Sistine Chapel and Notre Dame should have each other's effect, that's easy to do.

Just a few wonders will make it into the next version:

The Sistine Chapel
Versailles
Notre Dame
The Leaning Tower
The Theodosian Walls = Chichen Itza
Topkapi Palace (allows you to train your vassals' UU, super-cool)
Shrine of Uppsala = Moai Statues

jessiecat

Dec 07, 2008, 04:51 PM

jessiecat

Dec 07, 2008, 04:53 PM

Also, in the current list, I think we had agreed that there would be no Broadway/Graceland/Wembley analogues, right?

Then St. Basil's and St. Sophia cathedrals will have to assigned different benefits if we're sticking to the one wonder per civ minimum. Right?

sedna17

Dec 07, 2008, 05:05 PM

st.lucifer

Dec 07, 2008, 05:08 PM

Then St. Basil's and St. Sophia cathedrals will have to assigned different benefits if we're sticking to the one wonder per civ minimum. Right?

Yeah. That shouldn't be too difficult, though - really, it would make more sense for them to have different functions anyway. I can't really see a justification for giving access to a unique luxury resource by building St. Sophia's, can you?

Perhaps we should keep the base list of wonders, and then debate function for each? Some should be open-and-shut cases, others might be a little more complicated.

jessiecat

Dec 08, 2008, 05:22 AM

I was listing the effect of each wonder, not the artwork. I think 3Miro had suggested that St. Basil's and St. Sophia cathedrals could be pure culture wonders or culture multipliers. What do people think of this idea? I agree that we won't be doing any "hit singles"-like wonders.

That sounds good for those two. But I wouldn't want to see a lot of wonders that have just a culture-boost function. Some should have a powerful effect on gameplay like unit promotions, free techs, production boosts or enhanced diplomacy modifiers. I'd love to see something like the old Statue of Zeus from Civ3 that produces an extra UU every few turns, for example.

Whitefire

Dec 08, 2008, 08:48 AM

Also, in the current list, I think we had agreed that there would be no Broadway/Graceland/Wembley analogues, right?

Disagree. There should be a pre-built wonder in Jerusalem that generates Holy Artifacts for Islam and Catholicism. One in Constantinople for Orthodox and maybe a third in Rome that generates for Catholicism as well. This will help give an incentive to Crusading, make it easier to code Euro AIs to crusade, make future events more fun, create a better sense of world (especially since the sale of religious artifacts was common in the period), etc.

sedna17

Dec 08, 2008, 10:01 AM

The idea of relics as a new resource is definitely an interesting one. I would imagine that relics would be a +happiness with cathedrals/grand-mosques sort of thing, with the bonus limited to relics of the correct faith. Some of the religious "corporations" (Templars, Hospitallers, Teutonic Knights...) could use relics as input resources as well.

Whitefire

Dec 08, 2008, 10:09 AM

Exactly. We would also code an event that would allow a civ that has built enough Cathedrals (say 4) to discover a holy relic left behind by a saint, i.e. makeup some . .. .. .. .. .. .. .. . to get more money from the People. Or even add an AP resolution granting access to holy relics for all member nations. That way everyone gets a chance at the luxury, but the crusaders get more bonuses from corporations from having excess relics.

Whitefire

Dec 08, 2008, 10:15 AM

Another idea for a project or wonder:

The White Company: Double revenue from mercenaries.

st.lucifer

Dec 08, 2008, 10:37 AM

Disagree. There should be a pre-built wonder in Jerusalem that generates Holy Artifacts for Islam and Catholicism. One in Constantinople for Orthodox and maybe a third in Rome that generates for Catholicism as well. This will help give an incentive to Crusading, make it easier to code Euro AIs to crusade, make future events more fun, create a better sense of world (especially since the sale of religious artifacts was common in the period), etc.

I really, really like this idea. I'd suggest 'The True Cross' for Jerusalem, but that wouldn't have any value for Islam - 'The Prophet's Beard' would be a good Islamic version, but wouldn't necessarily be in Jerusalem.

I'm not sure what would work for Orthodoxy.

Would the Protestant Reformation then render the happiness bonus of all relics obsolete?

Whitefire

Dec 08, 2008, 10:53 AM

Would the Protestant Reformation then render the happiness bonus of all relics obsolete?

If it is chosen as a state religion, yes. But there are some fun things you can do to compensate.

jessiecat

Dec 08, 2008, 02:44 PM

If it is chosen as a state religion, yes. But there are some fun things you can do to compensate.

Like Cromwell's troops smashing up icons, trashing churches and melting down the silver for profit. Great fun, and profitable too!:D

jessiecat

Dec 11, 2008, 03:58 AM

Getting back to Wonders for a moment, my list of proposed Wonders to be included in the next test version is as follows. We have art for these and hopefully they should be easy to code as they replace existing wonders.

The Dome of the Rock (replaces the Taj Mahal)
The Round Church (replaces Stonehenge)
The Alhambra Palace (replaces the Parthenon)
Krak des Chevaliers (replaces the Great Wall, free castles per city)
The Monastery of Cluny (replaces the University of Sankore)
The Basilica San Marco (replaces the Temple of Artemis)
The Giralda Tower (replaces the Great Lighthouse)
Leonardos Inventions (as in Civ3)

Can we agree on these and continue discussions about the rest of the list?

Algeroth

Dec 11, 2008, 06:00 AM

The Giralda Tower (replaces the Great Lighthouse)

I don't want to be mean but I can't find any reltion between this tower and naval trade.

Leonardos Inventions (as in Civ3)

Is the italian renesance known for mass producing new types of unitits?

jessiecat

Dec 11, 2008, 06:17 AM

I don't want to be mean but I can't find any reltion between this tower and naval trade.

Is the italian renesance known for mass producing new types of unitits?

The Tower was suggested as a great wonder to represent Spain. It doesn't have to replace the Great Lighthouse. The Belem Tower in Portugal would be better for that. Maybe it should replace the Oracle instead
(1 free tech?) Or what do you suggest for a Spanish wonder that fits this period? And what should it replace?

I think Leonardos Inventions (or workshop as in Civ3) should boost science rather than make units cheaper. It could replace the Great Library ( 2 free scientists?) Maybe people disagree with that. Just my opinion.

Algeroth

Dec 11, 2008, 07:00 AM

jessiecat

Dec 11, 2008, 08:12 AM

LI- Free specialists are good, but I would suggest free scientist + artist instated. If we wants the "Renaissance Wonder" Piazza della Signoria could be good candidate, but i'm fine with the Leonardo workshop.

Belem Tower could be good replacement for GL. And I'm not sure if the Tower should replace something. I was going to suggest Paya, but it is replaced by the Golden Bull. If we would implementing new effects for wonders, the tower could enable culture generation from nonstate religions.

Leonardo's Inventions giving 1 free scientist and 1 free artist sounds good to me.

It would seem odd though to have a Spanish WW enabling culture generation from non-state religions when their UHV requires them to completely extinguish non-state religions.

Algeroth

Dec 11, 2008, 08:15 AM

Oh, the Tower is for spain and not for Andalusia? Ok. could you post what wonders we have as Spain and which as a Andalusian?

jessiecat

Dec 11, 2008, 08:26 AM

Oh, the Tower is for spain and not for Andalusia? Ok. could you post what wonders we have as Spain and which as a Andalusian?

Its just that we wanted to have a World Wonder from each of our civs. So far the only one suggested which is Spanish is the Giralda Tower. It was built originally by the Moors as the minaret for the Great Mosque of Seville but I guess everybody thinks of it as being Spanish now.
The two likely ones for Cordoba are the "Alhambra Palace" in Granada and the "Gardens of Al Andalus"
(replacing the Hanging Gardens) to represent the Arab irrigation and agricultural revolution in Andalusia during the 9th.-11th.Cs.

Algeroth

Dec 11, 2008, 08:53 AM

Then I suggest Escorial as a wonder for Spain that prevents negative stability from poor economic rating.

jessiecat

Dec 11, 2008, 09:09 AM

Then I suggest Escorial as a wonder for Spain that prevents negative stability from poor economic rating.

That's a very good suggestion. The Escorial Palace sounds great to me.

Whitefire

Dec 12, 2008, 01:26 PM

Cethegus

Dec 12, 2008, 02:21 PM

I'm pretty sure that having both the Leaning Tower and the National Epic in the game is going to cause a major balance issue. Especially if the Burgundians can tech fast enough to grab the LT. You might want to change the LT's power to +2Engineer specialists or something.

I second the idea of changing some wonders' effects but it has to be postponed until we come into agreement with which wonders to add in the first place. Are we to simply replace the already existing wonders with different graphics, names and hammer requirement or come up with new wonders entirely?

sedna17

Dec 12, 2008, 02:47 PM

Cethegus

Dec 12, 2008, 03:13 PM

I prefer to simply borrow pre-existing wonder-effects and slap on a new name and art. Jessiecat's post listing wonders does this. Benefit: it's easy for me, and the current wonder effects are fairly well balanced/play-tested already.

Perfect points there. I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants a little more variety to distinguish RFCE from other Civ IV mod(comp)s but that's true, messing with them will prove to be difficult.

If most of the wonder effects are left unchanged, will the replacing wonders appear in the tech tree around the same time their original counterparts will? If Wonder A replaces Great Lighthouse (+2 naval trade routes), will WA appear fairly soon from the start of the game or will it be delayed until later than "Masonry" + "Sailing"? What about other wonders?

st.lucifer

Dec 12, 2008, 04:11 PM

I prefer to simply borrow pre-existing wonder-effects and slap on a new name and art. Jessiecat's post listing wonders does this. Benefit: it's easy for me, and the current wonder effects are fairly well balanced/play-tested already.

One counterargument to that - the wonder effects are balanced and playtested for the original game, with availability and obsolescence balanced into the equation. We're changing those things, as well as access to resources and UHV-oriented requirements. As such, they're no longer balanced.

I understand the arguments for using existing wonder functions, but we shouldn't fool ourselves into thinking that they'll fit in perfectly when the map and tech tree are so different.

mitsho

Dec 12, 2008, 04:45 PM

One counterargument to that - the wonder effects are balanced and playtested for the original game, with availability and obsolescence balanced into the equation. We're changing those things, as well as access to resources and UHV-oriented requirements. As such, they're no longer balanced.

I understand the arguments for using existing wonder functions, but we shouldn't fool ourselves into thinking that they'll fit in perfectly when the map and tech tree are so different.

One more argument for same wonders: The entry bar is lower for new players, (because they know the old effects and it would thus be easier for them to calculate the effects, even if in a new setting).

Cethegus

Dec 12, 2008, 05:00 PM

One more argument for same wonders: The entry bar is lower for new players, (because they know the old effects and it would thus be easier for them to calculate the effects, even if in a new setting).

I was thinking of this also. This very thing keeps me from trying some mods and scenarios because I'm not "in" the game as much as I am on regular CIV. I sympathize with this argument but I can't help but wanting some more from RFCE than just different graphics for the same effects. Would changing up to around 50% of the wonder effects sound unreasonable to fit our needs and historical purposes? I don't think we need a national wonder Great Palace Versailles for example. Around 15 of the estimated 30 world wonders keeping the same effects as their counterparts do in unmodded Civ IV is quite a lot of familiar effects and sounds fair enough to me. It's not like giving essentially the same thing at another point will confuse new players away completely, right? Think of RFC Pyramids and Krak des Chevaliers suggestion (free castle in every city). Not that big of a change that one couldn't adapt to after a few playthroughs.

Long story short, RFCE's demands have changed from those of regular Civ IV. For the sake of freshness and balance, surely we need to adapt to the made changes appropriately. This includes changes in wonder effects as well - besdies, I don't see how much more damaging it can be than the great changes you've made to civics, techs, units and buildings already. Time to seek new balance.

mitsho

Dec 13, 2008, 06:42 AM

Yes, but we are already changing a lot already: The Tech Tree is new, the unit system is also new, altough it orientates itself at the Vanilla thing, we have new civs, new uu, new unique powers, etc. ... The wonders and building things is something we can quite easily keep "alike", so I'd advocate that. 15 out of 30 Wonders with the same effect is quite a much of new things to learn, so I would up it a bit (but 25% defence is pretty much alike = free castle in every city, so it can count as the same). It is important though that the new effects are spread evenly and do not cluster.

PS: An idea, completely unrelated: How do we simulate the Crusades? I know it is much to late to implement a new civ, but would a Crusader STate civ popping up in the Middle East not be neat. COuld interact nicely with Arabia (UHV) and the Turks... Ok, then not. (second civ proposal of me that does not succeed, first one was the Confederacy (Switzerland))

Whitefire

Dec 13, 2008, 12:25 PM

I think Crusades would work well as an Event. Like the "Horse Whisperer" quest in vanilla. You can have different levels of bonuses depending on how well the Crusade went.

civmademepoor

Dec 14, 2008, 11:12 PM

A thought I had while reading over the suggestions, all of which I like in their various ways, but to me they seem primarily medieval/early Renaissance, particularly as we parse it down. I think much of the game, especially for the late spawners, really starts to take off in the 16th and 17th centuries, so some things like the Globe theatre, Wren's St. Paul's (maybe allow a no anarchy revolution?), JS Bach's cathedral, Newton's college, hopefully buildable for Genoa, Austria, Moscow, the Turks, etc. . ., if not Holland and Sweden.

Hangly Man

Dec 19, 2008, 07:31 PM

The Temple of Solomon
The Wailing Wall

Aren't these the same thing?

The Jewish Quarter of Krakow (Poland) -art to be found

I realize these are both historically and culturally very significant, but how are fragments of buildings or ethnic neighborhoods wonders of the world?
Just how many hammers does it take to construct a Jewish neighborhood, anyway? Can I hurry it with a great engineer?

XenoSaber

Dec 19, 2008, 07:43 PM

Aren't these the same thing?

I realize these are both historically and culturally very significant, but how are fragments of buildings or ethnic neighborhoods wonders of the world?
Just how many hammers does it take to construct a Jewish neighborhood, anyway? Can I hurry it with a great engineer?

Actually, the Temple of Solomon is the first Jewish Temple, destroyed by the Babylonians. The Wailing Wall is the largest ruin from the second Jewish Temple, built under the patronage of King Herod, and destroyed by the Romans during the Jewish Revolts during the latter half of the 1st century.

And do Wonders need to be wonders of the world? Or just wonders of Europe? It might be valuable to look at UNESCO World Heritage sites in Europe for ideas.

Hangly Man

Dec 19, 2008, 08:10 PM

Actually, the Temple of Solomon is the first Jewish Temple, destroyed by the Babylonians. The Wailing Wall is the largest ruin from the second Jewish Temple, built under the patronage of King Herod, and destroyed by the Romans during the Jewish Revolts during the latter half of the 1st century.

And do Wonders need to be wonders of the world? Or just wonders of Europe? It might be valuable to look at UNESCO World Heritage sites in Europe for ideas.

The fact that you build them would at least indicate that they're at least national projects of some kind.

If an ethnic minority neighborhood is deemed significant enough to be included, why not make it an event?

"The [religion] minority in [city name] is [doing something]. Do you wish to:

A [option]
B [option]
C [option]"

Or somesuch.

XenoSaber

Dec 19, 2008, 08:46 PM

The fact that you build them would at least indicate that they're at least national projects of some kind.

If an ethnic minority neighborhood is deemed significant enough to be included, why not make it an event?

"The [religion] minority in [city name] is [doing something]. Do you wish to:

A [option]
B [option]
C [option]"

Or somesuch.

How many world wonders were national projects? Obviously some were, but others just put up by the locals, so to speak. Though I do think that an ethnic neighborhood or quarter is just too vague for a world wonder (national wonder, on the other hand...).

Hangly Man

Dec 19, 2008, 08:49 PM

How many world wonders were national projects? Obviously some were, but others just put up by the locals, so to speak. Though I do think that an ethnic neighborhood or quarter is just too vague for a world wonder (national wonder, on the other hand...).

What I'm trying to say is that they were projects, not commonplace and naturally-occurring things like ruins and neighborhoods.

Cethegus

Dec 20, 2008, 07:29 AM

How many world wonders were national projects? Obviously some were, but others just put up by the locals, so to speak. Though I do think that an ethnic neighborhood or quarter is just too vague for a world wonder (national wonder, on the other hand...).

Will we then be handing out Jewish quarters all around Europe? :mischief:

Good event suggestion, by the way.

micbic

Dec 20, 2008, 07:34 AM

Will we then be handing out Jewish quarters all around Europe? :mischief:

Good event suggestion, by the way.

The actual fun thing is that Jewish Quarters will spread around Europe and Judaism won't be existent as a religion. :mischief:

jessiecat

Dec 20, 2008, 08:53 AM

The actual fun thing is that Jewish Quarters will spread around Europe and Judaism won't be existent as a religion. :mischief:

Just think of it simply as a "non-ethnospecific secular socio-economic cultural phenomena with variable individual political, diplomatic and financial penalties or rewards". In short, not a religion as we know it, Captain.:D

Hangly Man

Dec 20, 2008, 01:16 PM

The actual fun thing is that Jewish Quarters will spread around Europe and Judaism won't be existent as a religion. :mischief:

If you're going to add Jewish quarters you may as well add Gypsy wagons for completeness.

Cethegus

Dec 21, 2008, 11:51 AM

If you're going to add Jewish quarters you may as well add Gypsy wagons for completeness.

We might replace one Plague wave with a semi-permanent Gypsy settlement. :D Or an event.

merijn_v1

Jan 04, 2009, 10:06 AM

When I played I had 2 vassals (burgundy, Genoa). I also had the Topkapi Palace. When I upgraded my Crossbowmen into Heavy Crossbowmen they didn't become Balestrieri. (UU of my vassal Genoa) Does the Topkapi only allow you to train your vassals UU and not to upgrade to that units? Or is there a mistake?

jessiecat

Jan 04, 2009, 11:54 AM

Hangly Man

Jan 06, 2009, 10:47 AM

Not sure if it's been mentioned already, but the Library of Cordoba should be in there somewhere. At the time of its capture there were more books in Cordoba's central library than in the whole of France.

Cordoba should start with it, and it could give them a culture or research boost. But capturing it could give the conqueror either several new techs, start a golden age, or halve the cost of research for a set number of turns. This to simulate the massive influx of Arab science into Europe after the library was captured.

Hangly Man

Jan 06, 2009, 10:56 AM

I think Crusades would work well as an Event. Like the "Horse Whisperer" quest in vanilla. You can have different levels of bonuses depending on how well the Crusade went.

Sounds like either the 'Greed' or 'Holy Mountain' events.

Perhaps it could be scripted so the target is always Jerusalem, and every Catholic civ gets the same quest at once.

Bonus points if you trash Byzantium on the way there :lol:

Hangly Man

Jan 06, 2009, 11:11 AM

Not exactly a wonder, but could monastic orders be included as well? They could take the place of corporations.

Each is founded with a great prophet (hey, GPs have to be good for something, right?) and each would have a slightly different effect. Extra hammers for the Benedictines, Science for the Jesuits, culture for the Franciscans, health for the Knights Templar, etc. Having the Jesuits in your city would have the added effect of eliminating all non-Catholic religions in that city. Could replace generic monasteries if people were feeling ambitious.

Then limit them the same way vanilla civ does. Monastic orders only function under Theocracy (or similar civics,) and can only be spread to other theocratic civs. Switching away from theocracy eliminates all the monasteries.

Switching to Protestantism gives you a one-time bonus of 50 gold per monastery eliminated, which you can use to finance for your disastrous foreign wars and pay for your many divorces.

st.lucifer

Jan 06, 2009, 12:25 PM

Arwon

Jan 07, 2009, 04:24 AM

Its just that we wanted to have a World Wonder from each of our civs. So far the only one suggested which is Spanish is the Giralda Tower. It was built originally by the Moors as the minaret for the Great Mosque of Seville but I guess everybody thinks of it as being Spanish now.
The two likely ones for Cordoba are the "Alhambra Palace" in Granada and the "Gardens of Al Andalus"
(replacing the Hanging Gardens) to represent the Arab irrigation and agricultural revolution in Andalusia during the 9th.-11th.Cs.

If you want something purely Castillian with no Moorish history, what about Santiago de Compostela? Especially since it's dedicated to St James, the Moorslayer and thus intimately tied up with the reconquista.

Maybe it could increase state religion spread/reduce non-state religion spread or something. Alternatively, it could simulate the pilgrammage effect of the Camino de Santiago, and give gold for religious buildings, or duplicate the Temple of Artemis, or add new trade routes in all cities (not just coastal)?

Another later possibility for Spain - La Lonja (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lonja_de_la_Seda) in Valencia, the silk exchange, maybe providing some silk resources or trade routes or something else depicting the Aragonese Mediterranean commerce centred in Valencia and Barcelona.

I'd suggest the Alcázar in Sevilla for Córdoba but I guess it is a little redundant.

jessiecat

Jan 07, 2009, 04:40 AM

If you want something purely Castillian with no Moorish history, what about Santiago de Compostela? Especially since it's dedicated to St James, the Moorslayer and thus intimately tied up with the reconquista.

Maybe it could increase state religion spread/reduce non-state religion spread or something. Alternatively, it could simulate the pilgrammage effect of the Camino de Santiago, and give gold for religious buildings, or duplicate the Temple of Artemis, or add new trade routes in all cities (not just coastal)?

Another later possibility for Spain - [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lonja_de_la_Seda]La Lonja[/i] in Valencia, the silk exchange, maybe providing some silk resources or trade routes or something else depicting the Aragonese Mediterranean commerce centred in Valencia and Barcelona.

I'd suggest the Alcázar in Sevilla for Córdoba but I guess it is a little redundant.

I like the idea of the Camino de Santiago as a religious wonder. La Lonja would be a good one though few players would know of it. Only a few people like you and I may have been in it. Amazing building. Wonderful acoustics.
Hopefully, now that our two modders will be free to resume their work soon we'll get quite a few of the wonders we have agreed on into the game.

Just to show people what Arwon's referring to, here's a shot of La Lonja de la Seda. (The Silk Exchange) in Valencia.

Arwon

Jan 07, 2009, 06:55 AM

There's a Lonja in Zaragoza too, but it isn't as nice. ):

Cethegus

Jan 09, 2009, 07:56 AM

I have a question about the Krak des Chevaliers. As far as I know, the current proposal is that it's going to give a free Castle in all of your cities and I was wondering if that's right. Historically it was built in Syria to make a strong fortress for the Crusaders to rest and plan their next move, like a base. But right now in Civ terms, there would be no sense building the wonder in hostile territory if as long as its effects are that of +1 free Castle in all cities. In most cases, I'm sure it would rather be built on homeland turf than where it is historically located to secure that the +1 Castle effect stayed in the hands of fellow countrymen and for that I'm sceptical whether its gameplay mechanics display its historical effects properly.

So, my proposal would be that it's a moderately-cheap-wonder-for-a-conquered-city to build, would raise the town's defenses by 50% (25% after the discovery of gunpowder) and only be built during war. I don't know how much thought there is behind giving KDC +1 Free Castles wonder effect but I think it should be made more practical and a strategic asset. There's a reason it was situated where it was, and for all I know it could be a regular Castle in Civ terms, auto-built by another Wonder with +1 Free Castles effect.

jessiecat

Jan 09, 2009, 10:29 AM

The idea of free castles for the KDC was just that. An idea. And while your suggestion is equally valid, there's no reason why a wonder has to conform precisely to its historical function. As soon as our modders are available again I'd like to see us add a few more wonders and colonial projects ASAP. Playtesting the mod in its present stage of development is getting increasingly boring IMO.:)

Cethegus

Jan 09, 2009, 02:16 PM

st.lucifer

Jan 09, 2009, 02:35 PM

Alright. And I agree with that one Civ-player whose signature stated: "If you want strategy, go play chess. If you want historical accuracy, go read a history book." Not all wonders should be direct duplicas of their historical selves, but it might help or direct us somewhere.

I'll try to find the current list of to-be-added wonders somewhere and see if there would be a more suitable +1 Castle wonder than KDC. Speaking of which, are there graphics for it yet or is the development team to improvise?

We could concievably use Kalmar Castle for the free castle in all cities wonder, but it might appear kind of late for that purpose and become obsolete quickly. In light of your observations on KDC, we could also change its function to something related to having troops in enemy territory - no war weariness, reduced maintenance penalty, or even healing.

civmademepoor

Jan 09, 2009, 03:53 PM

Perhaps if we kept that Krak, which I'm partial too, it could add walls and castles to all conquered cities similar to RFC's Arab UP?

mats

Jan 11, 2009, 10:09 AM

Verily

Jan 11, 2009, 01:14 PM

You should consider Sveaborg which definately is a wonder. At the time when it was built it was the biggest construction in europe and the the king of sweden had to borrow money from France to finish it. It played a great part in the defence of the Swedish kingdom against the Russians. The sveaborg drydock was the biggest part in the construction of the fortress and was considered somewhat a engineering wonder in the world at the time. Perhaps somekind of castle with extra defence bonus or combined drydock.

wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sveaborg

Sveaborg wasn't even begun until 1748; this mod ends at 1800. There is simply no point in including a wonder which is only available with one of the last techs on the tech tree and whose only effects could be extra defense. Sveaborg would be more appropriate to a mod which tried to represent Europe between the end of the Thirty Years' War up to World War I.

Cethegus

Jan 11, 2009, 02:52 PM

Sveaborg wasn't even begun until 1748; this mod ends at 1800. There is simply no point in including a wonder which is only available with one of the last techs on the tech tree and whose only effects could be extra defense. Sveaborg would be more appropriate to a mod which tried to represent Europe between the end of the Thirty Years' War up to World War I.

Sorry mats, no love for the Fatherland here. :p

mats

Jan 12, 2009, 09:53 AM

Yeah you're probably right, my bad :blush:. The Kalmar castle just seems a bit boring for a wonder.

What do you think about University of Uppsala which could have like great scientist spawning effect?

Cethegus

Jan 12, 2009, 10:38 AM

Considering Sankore University is in the Vanilla game and the development team is intending to keep some of the wonder effects the same, then I don't see a reason why not. It might not have to have University of Sankore wonder effect, but I suppose it deserves its place in the potential wonder list. What do others think? Would Sweden be over-represented in the wonders apartment?

Also, you don't have to type in a reason why you've editted your message. If I did that every time I editted a message of mine, every two of them would have a little banner in the bottom saying "Reason for editting: typo, grammar mistake, corrected spell-writing etc..." ;)

micbic

Jan 12, 2009, 12:49 PM

Keeping the Oxford University seems even better for me.

Cethegus

Jan 12, 2009, 01:41 PM

Keeping the Oxford University seems even better for me.

Oh yeah, I had forgotten about that. Guess that suggestion can be considered scrapped, then. :p

jessiecat

Jan 13, 2009, 03:43 AM

EDIT Double post

jessiecat

Jan 13, 2009, 03:48 AM

National Wonders

National Theatre (replaces Globe Theatre) - done
National Gallery (replaces Hermitage) -
National University (replaces Oxford University) - done
Royal Academy (replaces Great Library)
National Epic (as RFC)- done
Heroic Epic (as RFC) - done

Projects

Atlantic Access *
East India Company *
West India Company *
Hanseatic Ports
Medici Bank
Knights Templar

Colonies

-12 colonies now included in the game

World Wonders(35)

Forbidden Palace * (included)
Summer Palace *
The Sistine Chapel, Rome *
Versailles, Paris *
Notre Dame, Paris *
The Leaning Tower, Pisa *
The Theodosian Walls, Constantinople *
Topkapi Palace, Constantinople *
Shrine of Uppsala, Norse *
Krak des Chevaliers *
The Monastery of Cluny *
The Round Church *
The Alhambra Palace *

The Tomb of Khalid ibn Al Walid (replaces the Statue of Zeus, enemies suffer 100% war weariness,
+1 Great General.)
The Dome of the Rock, Jerusalem (replaces the Taj Mahal, starts Golden Age +1 Great. Artist?)
Kalmar Castle, Sweden (replaces The Pentagon, all new units rec. +1 experience point?))
The Gardens of Al Andalus, Cordoba (replaces the Hanging Gardens, +1 health, +1 food per city)
The Golden Bull, Hungary (replaces the Shwedagon Paya, enables all religion civics)
The Brandenburg Gate, Berlin (replaces The Kremlin, -33% production costs in all cities)
The Basilica San Marco, Venice (replaces the Temple of Artemis, +100% trade routes + 1 Great Merchant)
The Palazzo San Giorgio, Genoa (replaces the Statue of Liberty, +1 free specialist per city, 1 Great Merchant)
The Palacio de Pena, Portugal (replaces Christo Redentor, no anarchy when changing civics or religion))
The Escorial Palace, Spain (replaces the Spiral Minaret, +1 gold per all state religion buildings)
La Scala Opera House, Milan (replaces The Eiffel Tower. free monument per city)
St. Basil's Cathedral, Moscow (replaces The Mausoleum of Maussalos, +50% Golden Age length,
+1 Great Artist.)
St. Sophia Cathedral, Kiev (replaces Angkor Wat,+1 hammer per priest, can turn 3 citizens into priest))
The Jewish Quarter of Krakov, Poland (establishes Judaism in every large city?)
The Temple Mount, Jerusalem (replaces the Temple of Solomon)
Leonardo's Inventions, Italy (1 free scientist, 1 free artist in each city?)
The Copernican Revolution, Poland (as in Civ3)
Issac Newton's Laboratory, England (as in Civ3)
Magellan's Voyage, Portugal (as in Civ3)
Rembrandt's Masterpiece, Amsterdam (culture + happiness boost in all cities?)
Mozart's Concertos, Vienna (free theatres in all cities?)
Magna Carta, England (replaces the Pyramids, enables all govt. types)
Aztec Conquest?
Inca Conquest?

3Miro

Jan 13, 2009, 05:11 AM

Just a thought. What if the Arabs build Krak des Chevaliers (as in the "real world"), that would effectively make them immune to the Mongolian invasions which is kind of inaccurate.

jessiecat

Jan 13, 2009, 05:30 AM

Just a thought. What if the Arabs build Krak des Chevaliers (as in the "real world"), that would effectively make them immune to the Mongolian invasions which is kind of inaccurate.

Sorry. I meant replaces the Great Wall art only. As someone suggested, the effect might be a free wall and castle in each conquered city only. If that's possible to code.

3Miro

Jan 13, 2009, 06:26 AM

Sorry. I meant replaces the Great Wall art only. As someone suggested, the effect might be a free wall and castle in each conquered city only. If that's possible to code.

Sure, will put it on the to-do list.

BurnEmDown

Jan 14, 2009, 10:31 AM

I'd like to suggest changing the name of "Jewish Quarter of Krakov" to "Largest Jewish Quarter in Europe" or something like this, just like the "Leaning Tower" doesn't have "Pisa" in it's name or any other wonder. Also, I think the Jewish Quarter wonder shouldn't be responsible for Judaism's spread in Europe, but rather give cities with Judaism some bonuses like culture, gold, or research.

3Miro

Jan 14, 2009, 12:50 PM

We should start by adding a generic Jewish quarter building that cannot be normally build. Jewish quarters would spread as discussed some time ago. Jewish Quarter of Krakov (or however you name them) could give bonuses to the Jewish quarters in every city.

I am not sure about the largest Jewish community name, what if another civ has more Jews but you end up building the quarters. Maybe we should ask a prerequisite X number of Jewish Quarters before one can build the wonder.

BurnEmDown

Jan 14, 2009, 02:04 PM

Well most nations had Jewish quarters in some cities during the middle ages, I thought Krakov's was picked because it was one of the biggest? It doesn't really matter which nation has more Jews, just which one has the most influencing Jewish quarter. Then again, if the name is too long, I could think of something different to represent Jewish influence in Europe during the Middle ages. Off the top of my head I can suggest picking one the biggest Synagogues.

Cethegus

Jan 14, 2009, 03:45 PM

jessiecat

Jan 14, 2009, 03:53 PM

Question: could it be made so that Jewish quarters auto-build themselves in cities based on different events? Player or AI couldn't have any direct power over this which means the Jewish Quarters would be passively "spread" to cities through Jewish immigrants, much like religion. If possible, I suggest this same could be done with Gypsies because they've had a lot of history in Europe ever since the fall of Rome. Perhaps not give them a wonder of their own, though.

The spreading could be encouraged or discouraged through civics, if need be. Good idea, bad idea, already suggested?

Good idea. Maybe they could spread via trade routes between cities and civs automatically once a city reaches X amount of population and wealth? Which could be effected by certain civics like you say. Though spreading Gypsies in the same way might be more difficult. To what effect? So Yes to the 1st. idea and but NO for the 2nd. IMO.

3Miro

Jan 14, 2009, 03:58 PM

Arwon

Jan 14, 2009, 10:07 PM

If you want a very influential Jewish community, the one in Prague is a good choice. There was 7 synagogues there.

Hangly Man

Jan 15, 2009, 12:51 AM

Keeping the Oxford University seems even better for me.

How can you have Oxford and overlook more important universities like the ones in Paris or Bolognia?

Cethegus

Jan 15, 2009, 02:17 AM

There was a post some tome ago that decided how the Jews would spread, it was more or less what you suggested. I generally disagree with the Gypsy idea, what was the Gypsy achievement. We could make them an event, but not a building.

Sounds excellently fine by me. And yes, I would have been very surprised if someone else hadn't thought of that before.

jessiecat

Jan 15, 2009, 03:10 AM

There was a post some tome ago that decided how the Jews would spread, it was more or less what you suggested. I generally disagree with the Gypsy idea, what was the Gypsy achievement. We could make them an event, but not a building.

A Gypsy event? How about this?

A Gypsy caravan turns up outside your city. A guy in traditional costume starts playing a violin. A girl starts dancing. (cue lively gypsy music) Meanwhile his mates are picking pockets and nicking the silverware.
Effect: +1 culture, -1 gold for 5 turns, followed by 1 turn of unhappiness.:mischief:

micbic

Jan 15, 2009, 07:00 AM

How can you have Oxford and overlook more important universities like the ones in Paris or Bolognia?

Good point, actually the Bologna one was the eldest in Europe, but I proposed that since it doesn't need that much work (most notably artwork)

sedna17

Jan 15, 2009, 07:49 AM

Good point, actually the Bologna one was the eldest in Europe, but I proposed that since it doesn't need that much work (most notably artwork)

Here here (so sayth the Cantabrigian).

st.lucifer

Jan 15, 2009, 08:14 AM

How can you have Oxford and overlook more important universities like the ones in Paris or Bolognia?

I think the consensus on that was to rename it something like 'national university' (as a national wonder), for precisely that reason. It's not hard to come up with an elite national university (or two) for our civs, but picking the Sorbonne over Bologna or Oxford over either is a tough call.

sedna17

Jan 15, 2009, 10:38 AM

Okay - time to start adding more wonders.

I will add the basic XML and art/movies (where available) for something like this list of wonders. For ones which re-use/modify old powers that will be that. For new powers, I'll ask 3Miro for help, but in the first release these new powers won't work and people will complain about it on the feedback thread and I'll ignore them. :mischief:

Our path on Colonies/Corporations/Projects is less clear. I think what makes sense/has been decided is this:

The corporations mechanism will be included at a later date and focus on cross-national entities with lots of branches within Europe such as: Medici Bank, The Ausberg Banking Families, Hanseatic league, Templars, Hospitallers, and Teutonic Knights.

All colonies will be implemented as "Projects" rather than Buildings/Wonders. This prevents rushing with engineers and means they are not established in one particular city in a civilization and thus can't be captured directly. East/West India companies (and possibly others?) will be special enabling projects, much like the Apollo project enables spaceships, except probably granting a significant production bonus rather than boolean enable/disable (so maybe more like the Space Elevator).

The Projects xml is currently very limited, much more limited than for buildings. We will have to significantly expand the xml schema and associated SDK code in order to do this. However, we would probably have to expand the xml schema even for buildings IF we wanted to make colonies "buildings", and so it probably makes more sense to start "clean" with projects.

Another nice proposal (sorry, don't remember who proposed it) is that colony production could be dramatically accelerated by or require a resource "Access to the Atlantic", which would be an abstract resource representing a trade route to the Atlantic. A couple such resources would be present around the coasts of several countries (Portugal, Spain, France, England, Netherlands, Denmark/Normway?). These resources would be "worked" by a workboat to establish a "trade-route" which would then provide this resource and associated ease of colony building. Surplus "Access" could be traded by the Atlantic nations to more land-locked nations. A "trade-route" could be pillaged by pirates or in war (we'd make the pillage worth a lot of gold), thus requiring players to maintain a navy to protect these resources at least as long as they wish to build colonies. This is a rather abstract mechanism, but by piggy-backing on top of an existing mechanism, I think it will work well for the AI.

BurnEmDown

Jan 15, 2009, 11:15 AM

I think your last paragraph is a great Idea. This would greatly increase naval activity in the mod and give sea access more strategic value.

st.lucifer

Jan 15, 2009, 09:35 PM

Another nice proposal (sorry, don't remember who proposed it) is that colony production could be dramatically accelerated by or require a resource "Access to the Atlantic", which would be an abstract resource representing a trade route to the Atlantic. A couple such resources would be present around the coasts of several countries (Portugal, Spain, France, England, Netherlands, Denmark/Normway?). These resources would be "worked" by a workboat to establish a "trade-route" which would then provide this resource and associated ease of colony building. Surplus "Access" could be traded by the Atlantic nations to more land-locked nations. A "trade-route" could be pillaged by pirates or in war (we'd make the pillage worth a lot of gold), thus requiring players to maintain a navy to protect these resources at least as long as they wish to build colonies. This is a rather abstract mechanism, but by piggy-backing on top of an existing mechanism, I think it will work well for the AI.

I don't remember whose idea this was, either, but I like it. We're going to have to make timber a requirement for the colonial projects, as well.

sedna17

Jan 16, 2009, 10:19 AM

I don't remember whose idea this was, either, but I like it. We're going to have to make timber a requirement for the colonial projects, as well.

Requiring Timber and "Atlantic Access" would be pretty harsh. Specifically, that would mean that you could be 90% of the way to getting a colony -- lose one resource, and suddenly be back to square one. I guess it's not unrealistic, but I wonder how frustrating it would be.

I'll create an XML-schema with the possibility for multiple requirements and the possibility for bonuses providing production multipliers, and we can try out a couple different possibilities.

Chrismarck

Jan 17, 2009, 09:10 AM

Hi :)
maybe my list will help you - or give you some ideas

Voting Wonders:
Apostolic Palace, Rome / Italy
Council of Europe, Strassbourg / France

National Wonders:
Scotland Yard, London / England
Versailles, Paris / France
Eremitage, St. Petersburg / Russia
Red Cross, Geneva / Switzerland

Product Wonders:
Dance Event - Love Parade, Berlin / Germany
Beer & Pretzel - Oktoberfest, Munich / Germany
Pop Music - Abbey Road Studios, London / England
Drama Theater - Globe Theatre, London / England
Film Hits - Cinecittà, Rome / Italy
Opera Ball - Vienna State Opera, Vienna / Austria
Classical Ballet - Bolschoi-Theater, Moscow / Russia
Automobile - Geneva Motor Show, Geneva / Switzerland

Unique Wonders:
Belgium / Brussels - Atomium
Denmark / Copenhagen - Nysted Havmøllepark
Bosnia & Herzegovina / Mostar - Stari Most
Germany / Berlin - Brandenburg Gate
Germany / Füssen - Neuschwanstein Castle
England / Greenwich - Royal Observatory
Finnland / Helsinki - Suomenlinna
France / Calais & England / Dover - Channel Tunnel
France / Cluny - Cluny Abbey
France / Paris - Eiffel Tower
France / Paris - Notre Dame
Italy / Pisa - Lean Tower of Pisa
Italy / Venice - Doge's Palace
Italy / Rome - Sistine Chapel
Croatia / Split - Diocletian's Palace
Monaco / Monaco - Monte Carlo Casino
Norway / Bergen - Tyskebryggen
Netherlands / Middleburg - Delta Works
Netherlands / Rotterdam - Europoort
Austria / Vienna - Prater
Austria / Vienna - Spanish Riding School
Poland / Gdansk - Crane Gate
Portugal / Lisboa - Torre de Belém
Rumania / Bucharest - Parlament's Palace
Russia / Moscow - Kremlin
Russia / Moscow - Red Square
Russia / Moscow - Sputnik Program
Sweden / Stockholm - Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences
Spain / Barcelona - Sagrada Familia
Spain / Granada - Alhambra
Ukraine / Odessa - Potemkin Stairs
Turkey / Istanbul - Hagia Sophia
Turkey / Istanbul - Basilica Cistern
Czechia / Prague - Charles Bridge

Have fun!

micbic

Jan 17, 2009, 11:49 AM

jessiecat

Jan 17, 2009, 05:22 PM

Firstly, welcome to the forums!
For the list: It is not a bad one (some suggestions are kinda good), but the mod refers to Middle-to-Industrial Ages, so some of them (eg Sputnik Program) are unsuitable. I don't know, also, what would others think for civ-unique wonders.

I agree that some suggestions on that list are good. Many are already on our suggested list which has been discussed and revised for several months. But, like you say, far too many are too late for our mod which ends in 1800. And I don't really like the idea of civ-unique wonders other than the 4 or 5 National Wonders we have already agreed on. All the rest should be World Wonders or projects available to all civs, in my opinion. Suggestions or additions are always welcome but I think we've got a basic list decided and should be trying to implement most of that ASAP.

sedna17

Jan 17, 2009, 08:21 PM

Yeah, I don't like Civ-specific wonders. We could tie some wonders to a specific state religion, but Civ has long lived with the historical oddities not doing so has produced.

st.lucifer

Jan 17, 2009, 10:14 PM

Yeah, I don't like Civ-specific wonders. We could tie some wonders to a specific state religion, but Civ has long lived with the historical oddities not doing so has produced.

Agreed. I think that having a wonder to represent each civ is plenty of concession - having a unique wonder for every civ would just represent another powerful thing to balance, unless they all had the same function, which would be ridiculous.

Cethegus

Jan 18, 2009, 02:49 AM

Agreed. I think that having a wonder to represent each civ is plenty of concession - having a unique wonder for every civ would just represent another powerful thing to balance, unless they all had the same function, which would be ridiculous.

One could ask himself how "unique" they would then be.

Chrismarck

Jan 18, 2009, 09:55 AM

jessiecat

Jan 18, 2009, 11:13 AM

Thanks for your welcome :)

I think, I used the wrong word for my list - "unique" should not be a civ-specific wonder - just the "normal" wonders

I'm sorry, that I didnt read that the wonders should be from Middle-to-Industrial Ages - the last months I looked up here now and than.

If you check back to post 154, you'll see the list we've been working from. The bolded wonders are already in the game. The rest are waiting to be coded. We may not use every one and we could add others but that is the basic list we've agreed so far, more or less. I welcome your input as well and look forward to seeing your suggestions in future.:)

jessiecat

Feb 02, 2009, 01:55 AM

As requested by sedna 17, I've done some work on the colonies that exist in the latest test version (Jan. 31st) and suggested 2 more for inclusion.
First of all, we've got the East India Company and West India Company needing Free Market to build them. That condition would make colony building come too late in the mod IMO. Therefore I propose dropping that condition so they can be built on researching Trading Companies. I've suggested 2 additional colonies, namely the Virginia Company, mostly for tobacco, annd the East Africa Company for coffee. Coffee originated in South Arabia and Ethiopia then spread through East Africa, the Middle East and the East Indies before 1800. From there it was exported to Europe. Even though today most coffee today comes from Brazil and Central America, at no point in the life of this mod was it grown anywhere in the New World. I've also made some changes to Sugar and would argue for its inclusion as a widespread Meditteranian resource as well. Anyway here is my revised list for the colonies, with their requisite techs and resources.

East India Company - enabled by Trading Companies
(allows Gold Coast, East Africa, East Indies, Indian Trading Post,
Far Eastern Trading Port and Malaysia -50% build cost)

West India Company -enabled by Trading Companies
(allows Cuba, Hudson Bay, Brazil, Virginia Colony, Ivory Coast,
and Capetown -50% build cost)
.................................................. ............................................

East Africa -enabled by Nationalism -gives 4 coffee, 2 slaves

Cuba - enabled by Nationalism - gives 4 sugar, 2 tobacco

East Indies - enabled by Liberalism - gives 4 spices, 2 coffee

Brazil - enabled by Liberalism - gives 4 sugar, 2 gems

Indian Trading Post - enabled by Naval Architecture - gives 4 cotton, 2 silk

Hudsons Bay - enabled by Naval Architecture - gives 4 furs, 2 tobacco

Gold Coast - enabled by Civil Engineering - gives 4 slaves, 2 ivory

Virginia Colony - enabled by Civil Engineering - gives 4 tobacco, 2 cotton

Ivory Coast - enabled by Economics - gives 4 ivory, 2 gems

Far Eastern Treaty Port - enabled by Economics - gives 4 silk, 2 tea

Capetown - enabled by Rights of Man - gives 4 wine, 2 gems

Malaysia - enabled by Rights of Man - gives 4 tea, 2 spices

Edit. There is another important resource that should be included but I'm not sure how you could represent it with a colony. For at least a 100 years before Columbus there was a huge trade in salted cod throughout Europe, supplied exclusively by Basque fishermen who regularly visited the Grand Banks of Newfoundland, drying, smoking and salting their fish before trading it throughout Europe. It was so important to the Catholic Church for supplying Friday fish to inland Europe that they subsidized the Basques and bankrolled their fleet. So the Basques became very rich and the Church happily kept their secret. So much so that when the French explorer Jacques Cartier "discovered" Canada in 1534 he was amazed to find hundreds of Basque fishermen already there. I think "Who the hell are these guys?" was probably the phrase. Later it became an important component of the triangular English trans-Atlantic trade. ie. Jamaican sugar> African slaves> Newfoundland salt cod.

sedna17

Feb 02, 2009, 07:29 AM

jessiecat

Feb 02, 2009, 08:52 AM

Thanks, this is exactly what I looking for.

I don't know how to include salt cod either, though of course we could have a "Newfoundland" or generic "New England" (would want a less prejudicial name) colony which supplied the health resources fish and salt.

Thanks. I guess "Newfoundland" would be best as that's where the main fishing grounds were
(+ New England area as well). You wouldn't need salt as the Basques brought their own.
The fish was wind-dried and salted on the shore then transported home. (That's all they ate
on the way back). Maybe it could just supply 6 dried fish.

BurnEmDown

Feb 02, 2009, 09:09 AM

I think there should be a migration event for civs with companies in the new world. The migration should happen only in the angriest and sickest cities of course, and only once in a while.

3Miro

Feb 02, 2009, 10:24 AM

I think there should be a migration event for civs with companies in the new world. The migration should happen only in the angriest and sickest cities of course, and only once in a while.

Was the immigration in the early years as powerful as to have a depopulation effect in Europe. In anyway it would have to be small since it may give big disadvantage to the Colonial powers.

jessiecat

Feb 02, 2009, 10:41 AM

Was the immigration in the early years as powerful as to have a depopulation effect in Europe. In anyway it would have to be small since it may give big disadvantage to the Colonial powers.

You're right. A depletion of population might just negate whatever advantage the civ gets from its colony.
Kind of counter-productive IMO.

BurnEmDown

Feb 02, 2009, 11:10 AM

Then how about turn it into some kind of an ability? If one of your cities has a lot of angry citizens, one could send some away to reduce the angry people, and perhaps get some bonus from it.

3Miro

Feb 02, 2009, 12:52 PM

Then how about turn it into some kind of an ability? If one of your cities has a lot of angry citizens, one could send some away to reduce the angry people, and perhaps get some bonus from it.

Other than Rush (whip, send to the new world) people to get Colonial Projects done, I don't see how this could play.

civmademepoor

Feb 02, 2009, 12:54 PM

For the cod, it might work well as a quest. Maybe get three fishing boats first to the fish resources in the far west of the map? We'd have to allow these boats to fish outside of cultural borders though, or ascribe that ability to another unit.

Verily

Feb 02, 2009, 03:21 PM

Some comments on colonial names...

It should be Malaya, not Malaysia; the latter name was not used until the merger of Malaya and Singapore in the 20th century.

If we want to be origin-neutral, New England isn't the only problematic name. So are Virginia, Hudson's Bay, Cuba and Brazil.

sedna17

Feb 02, 2009, 05:16 PM

Good point on Malaya, we'll change that name. Of course various other colony names are somewhat civ-specific, but don't you think New England would be a whole other class of odd if anyone BUT England were to build it? A moot point anyway, since we won't include it. I think the flavor of maintaining the rest of the names is well worth any odd counter-factual-historical names which may arise.

st.lucifer

Feb 02, 2009, 05:17 PM

Thanks, this is exactly what I looking for.

I don't know how to include salt cod either, though of course we could have a "Newfoundland" or generic "New England" (would want a less prejudicial name) colony which supplied the health resources fish and salt.

We could split fish into 'herring' and 'cod', with herring being widely available and cod being more rare.

If we start adding more health resources, we may want to start imposing larger health penalties on large cities, though.

3Miro

Feb 02, 2009, 05:57 PM

We could split fish into 'herring' and 'cod', with herring being widely available and cod being more rare.

If we start adding more health resources, we may want to start imposing larger health penalties on large cities, though.

Add some early pre-industrial factories. Wasn't there some sort of pre-assembly line manufacturing widely spread in Europe. We could include it as a building and make it produce health penalty just as in regular civ.

sedna17

Feb 02, 2009, 07:40 PM

I think two sorts of fish would be confusing.

civmademepoor

Feb 02, 2009, 11:14 PM

Perhaps we could ascribe different values, +3 food for cod, +3 food, +1 health and -1 happiness for herring, +1 food, +1 happiness and +1 gold for turbot?

Seriously, the Grand Banks could be an option. If we do it, it might include a +1 happiness to represent religious freedom and reduced crime in the colonizing city. (prostitutes and neardowells were shipped from France, zealots and other assorted radicals from Britain and Ireland). However, I'm not convinced that is a fully adequate representation of New England or New France, but does kind of encapsulate both. Timber also might not be a bad resource to add to those. New England timber was a critical resource for the Empire prior to independence.

jessiecat

Feb 03, 2009, 01:10 AM

I'd be fine with either the Grand Banks or Newfoundland as a pre-colonial project needing Shipbuilding and Atlantic Access like someone suggested. Cod would be the special resource. Some cod could be placed near Iceland as well. Other fish are available around Europe's coasts anyway.

jessiecat

Feb 18, 2009, 05:28 PM

BurnEmDown

Feb 19, 2009, 12:13 AM

How can you have "+1 Great General" From wonder when GG are born only from combat experience?

merijn_v1

Feb 19, 2009, 03:31 AM

[U][I]
The Copernican Revolution, Poland (as in Civ3)
Issac Newton's Laboratory, England (as in Civ3)
Magellan's Voyage, Portugal (as in Civ3)

I have played Civ 3 but I don't remember what the power of those Wonders were. Could you give me the Powers, please?

Panopticon

Feb 19, 2009, 04:06 AM

Have you considered turning the "Projects" other than Atlantic Access into heavily modified Corporations?

Chrismarck

Feb 19, 2009, 04:19 AM

National Wonders

National Theatre (replaces Globe Theatre) included *
National Gallery (replaces Hermitage) *
National University (replaces Oxford University) *
National Epic (as RFC) *
Heroic Epic (as RFC) *
- Royal Academy (replaces Great Library) -suggested

great :goodjob:

Projects (3)

Atlantic Access (enabled by Astronomy)*
East India Company *
West India Company *
Hanseatic Ports (suggested)
Medici Bank (suggested)
Knights Templar (suggested)

good suggestions! :goodjob:

Colonies (17 included)

Brazil
Cuba
Capetown
East Africa
East Indies
Gold Coast
Ivory Coast
Hudson Bay
Malaya
Virginia
Far Eastern Treaty Ports (4 allowed)
Indian Trading Posts (3 allowed)

:goodjob:

World Wonders (14 included)

Forbidden Palace * (included)
Summer Palace *
The Sistine Chapel, Rome *
Versailles, Paris *
Notre Dame, Paris *
The Leaning Tower, Pisa *
The Theodosian Walls, Constantinople *
Topkapi Palace, Constantinople *
Shrine of Uppsala, Norse *
Krak des Chevaliers *
The Monastery of Cluny *
The Round Church *
The Alhambra Palace *
The Palacio de Pena *

:goodjob:

These have been suggested but not yet implemented:
The Brandenburg Gate, Berlin (replaces The Kremlin, -33% production costs in all cities)
The Basilica San Marco, Venice (replaces the Temple of Artemis, +100% trade routes + 1 Great Merchant)
The Escorial Palace, Spain (replaces the Spiral Minaret, +1 gold per all state religion buildings)
La Scala Opera House, Milan (replaces The Eiffel Tower. free monument per city)
Kalmar Castle, Sweden (replaces The Pentagon, all new units rec. +1 experience point?))
Magna Carta, England (replaces the Pyramids, enables all govt. types)
The Jewish Quarter of Krakov, Poland (establishes Judaism in every large city?)
The Golden Bull, Hungary (replaces the Shwedagon Paya, enables all religion civics)

this ones i really like :)

The Tomb of Khalid ibn Al Walid (replaces the Statue of Zeus, enemies suffer 100% war weariness, +1 Great General.)
i never heard of that tomb - sorry ;)
other suggestions:
Castel Sant'Angelo, Rome / Italy
Hall of Liberation (Befreiungshalle), Kelheim / Germany
Monument to the Battle of the Nations, Leipzig / Germany
Hermann monument (Hermannsdenkmal), NRW / Germany
Valle de los Caídos, El Escorial / Spain
Monument to the Unknown Hero, Belgrade / Serbia

The Dome of the Rock, Jerusalem (replaces the Taj Mahal, starts Golden Age +1 Great. Artist?)
i really like the idea of the dome of the rock - but is it important enough, to start a golden age? maybe it should replace the angkor wat

The Gardens of Al Andalus, Cordoba (replaces the Hanging Gardens, +1 health, +1 food per city)
my first idea by replacing gardens was the alhambra or the topkapi palaca. the gardens of al andalus are great, but not important enought (i think...)
suggestions:
the Prater, vienna / austria
Villa d’Este, tivoli / italy
English Garden (Englischer Garten), munich / germany

The Palazzo San Giorgio, Genoa (replaces the Statue of Liberty, +1 free specialist per city, 1 Great Merchant)
for me not important enough :) anyway - is it necessary to replace every existing wonder?

St. Basil's Cathedral, Moscow (replaces The Mausoleum of Maussalos, +50% Golden Age length, +1 Great Artist.)
St. Sophia Cathedral, Kiev (replaces Angkor Wat,+1 hammer per priest, can turn 3 citizens into priest))
i really like that buildings - but maybe they should have a typical religous effect... foreign civs (with same or other religion) are gentler and building faster other churches and convents - for example

Leonardo's Inventions, Italy (1 free scientist, 1 free artist in each city?)
The Copernican Revolution, Poland (as in Civ3)
Issac Newton's Laboratory, England (as in Civ3)
Magellan's Voyage, Portugal (as in Civ3)
Rembrandt's Masterpiece, Amsterdam (culture + happiness boost in all cities?)
Mozart's Concertos, Vienna (free theatres in all cities?)

personally for me, I dont like wonders which are based on a great person. you already have benefits of their creation. and how would you differ, which one is more important? for example, some people thinking mozart is the major composer - other would think beethoven, bach or wagner are more important. therefore i wouldnt add them and face special buildings of them, like the sixtine chapel of michaelangelo.

jessiecat

Feb 19, 2009, 09:11 AM

i never heard of that tomb - sorry ;)
other suggestions:
Castel Sant'Angelo, Rome / Italy
Hall of Liberation (Befreiungshalle), Kelheim / Germany
Monument to the Battle of the Nations, Leipzig / Germany
Hermann monument (Hermannsdenkmal), NRW / Germany
Valle de los Caídos, El Escorial / Spain
Monument to the Unknown Hero, Belgrade / Serbia

i really like the idea of the dome of the rock - but is it important enough, to start a golden age? maybe it should replace the angkor wat

my first idea by replacing gardens was the alhambra or the topkapi palaca. the gardens of al andalus are great, but not important enought (i think...)
suggestions:
the Prater, vienna / austria
Villa d’Este, tivoli / italy
English Garden (Englischer Garten), munich /

personally for me, I dont like wonders which are based on a great person. you already have benefits of their creation. and how would you differ, which one is more important? for example, some people thinking mozart is the major composer - other would think beethoven, bach or wagner are more important. therefore i wouldnt add them and face special buildings of them, like the sixtine chapel of michaelangelo.

I hope you understand that these are still suggestions. Some will be implemented. Others not.

re. the Tomb of Al Khalid. You may not of heard of him but most military historians regard him as one the top 10 generals of all time. Conqueror of Syria, Iraq and the Persian Empire in 4 years, 200 battles, retired without losing even one. The wiki article on the Muslim conquests makes interesting reading. I recommend it.

The idea of the Gardens of Al Andalus was to represent the hugely important Arab Agricultural Revolution involving advanced irrigation and new technologies which brought dozens of new crops like sugar, rice, coffee, cotton, citrus fruits and many new vegetables which transformed the diet of Europe.

The Dome of the Rock was suggested to replace the Taj Mahal but it doesn't have to start a Golden Age. It could have other effects.

I agree though that wonders based on a single person are not ideal. And I should remind you that we tried to have at least one wonder per civ in the mod and make sure that each one was already built well before 1800, which is when our mod ends. Anyway thanks for your suggestions. Glad to have any help you can provide.:)

Chrismarck

Feb 19, 2009, 12:33 PM

I hope you understand that these are still suggestions. Some will be implemented. Others not.

for sure - all I want to do is to give you some other thoughts and a different meaning ;)

re. the Tomb of Al Khalid. You may not of heard of him but most military historians regard him as one the top 10 generals of all time. Conqueror of Syria, Iraq and the Persian Empire in 4 years, 200 battles, retired without losing even one. The wiki article on the Muslim conquests makes interesting reading. I recommend it.

I know Al Khalid, but I havent heared about his tomb. a wonder is for me a special building - something never been before and important for people or remarkable because of its construction. creating a new wonder which doesnt exist would be some kind of strange - I think ;)

The idea of the Gardens of Al Andalus was to represent the hugely important Arab Agricultural Revolution involving advanced irrigation and new technologies which brought dozens of new crops like sugar, rice, coffee, cotton, citrus fruits and many new vegetables which transformed the diet of Europe.

I understand the meaning and your idea behind - but wouldnt it be proper if the special building of the al andalusian civ would be the garden? so you have the historical background, that you have more than one garden.

The Dome of the Rock was suggested to replace the Taj Mahal but it doesn't have to start a Golden Age. It could have other effects.

buildings (wonders) for a golden age are difficult. there are several reasons why civs had a golden age, not only because of a wonder. the taj mahal is a remarkable building and its hard to find something simular. maybe the hagia sofia could be something like that for european history.

I agree though that wonders based on a single person are not ideal. And I should remind you that we tried to have at least one wonder per civ in the mod and make sure that each one was already built well before 1800, which is when our mod ends. Anyway thanks for your suggestions. Glad to have any help you can provide.:)

Im still a litte bit sad that it ends 1800 ;) but it will be great if its ready.

Ill do my very best - unfortunately I cant help you more with programming or designing.

jessiecat

Feb 19, 2009, 12:59 PM

for sure - all I want to do is to give you some other thoughts and a different meaning ;)

I know Al Khalid, but I havent heared about his tomb. a wonder is for me a special building - something never been before and important for people or remarkable because of its construction. creating a new wonder which doesnt exist would be some kind of strange - I think ;)

I understand the meaning and your idea behind - but wouldnt it be proper if the special building of the al andalusian civ would be the garden? so you have the historical background, that you have more than one garden.

buildings (wonders) for a golden age are difficult. there are several reasons why civs had a golden age, not only because of a wonder. the taj mahal is a remarkable building and its hard to find something simular. maybe the hagia sofia could be something like that for european history.

Im still a litte bit sad that it ends 1800 ;) but it will be great if its ready.

Ill do my very best - unfortunately I cant help you more with programming or designing.

Good points. I guess I was looking for something like the Statue of Zeus in Civ 3 but a wonder that pumps out units every few turns would be just too powerful.
Your point about duplicating the garden is a good one. I'd like to have that wonder but change the UB to something closer to the Cordoban UP which is health related.
It would be good to have one expensive wonder which started a golden age but maybe the Dome of the Rock isn't it. Any suggestions from the existing or proposed wonders as to which one it should be?
I'm glad we're finishing at 1800 though as there is talk that another group of CFCers might try to build an 1800 to date mod/mod. An ancient one to about 500AD may also be on the cards.
As far as helping, we all do what we can. I can't code at all. But I am good at researching whatever we need. The best thing all of us can do however is to keep play-testing and reporting regularly to this thread and others. Glad to have you aboard.:)

Chrismarck

Feb 20, 2009, 02:48 AM

Good points. I guess I was looking for something like the Statue of Zeus in Civ 3 but a wonder that pumps out units every few turns would be just too powerful.
Your point about duplicating the garden is a good one. I'd like to have that wonder but change the UB to something closer to the Cordoban UP which is health related.
It would be good to have one expensive wonder which started a golden age but maybe the Dome of the Rock isn't it. Any suggestions from the existing or proposed wonders as to which one it should be?
I'm glad we're finishing at 1800 though as there is talk that another group of CFCers might try to build an 1800 to date mod/mod. An ancient one to about 500AD may also be on the cards.
As far as helping, we all do what we can. I can't code at all. But I am good at researching whatever we need. The best thing all of us can do however is to keep play-testing and reporting regularly to this thread and others. Glad to have you aboard.:)

Good Morning :)

today I have time enough to read my files once more and look at my books and internetpages. we need at least one wonder per civ - right? I will start with your list and add my suggestions - what they mean to me.

Im so sorry that i cant play-testing - I tried but it always brokes down :(

Whish you a gread day!

Chrismarck

Feb 20, 2009, 07:38 AM

Wonders in Spain

Way of St. James / El Camino de Santiago
- missionaries ignore borders, or
- better relationship to civs with same religion

Silk Exchange / Lonja de la Seda
- extra gold for special goods, or
- building markets goes faster

Wonders in Al Andalus

Alhambra / Alhambra
- free building castle in every city, or
- higher population in citys, or
- take away every religion excetp the state-religion (alhambra decree)

Great Mosque of Cordoba / Mezquita de Córdoba
- better relationship to civs with other religion, or
- free religion government

Wonders in Portugal

Belém Tower / Torre de Belém
- two extra traderoutes for coastal citys, or
- better defence for coastal citys, or
- sea fields gets one extra gold

Hieronymites Monastery / Mosteiro dos Jerónimos
- building faster colony projekts
- rise up science in city or every monastery

Wonders in France

Palace of Versailles / Château de Versailles
- reduce the support of nearby citys (like it is), or
- better relationship to other civs (all the contracts), or
- starting a golden age

Notre Dame de Paris / Cathédrale Notre-Dame de Paris
- people are happier in every city (like it is), or
- rising up culture in city or every religious building, or
- free building church in every city

Wonders in Burgundy

Cluny Abbey / Abbaye de Cluny
- rise up science in city or every monastery, or
- free building monastery in every city

Fort Thüngen / Fort Thüngen
- doubles the defence of the city wall, or
- defence units starts with more experience

Wonders in Venice, Genoa and Papal State

Doge's Palace / Palazzo Ducale di Venezia
- lowers the maintenance costs in every city, or
- more range for ships and scouts

St Mark's Basilica / Basilica di San Marco a Venezia
- more gold from trade routes, or
- extra gold from state religion buildings

Leaning Tower of Pisa / Torre pendente di Pisa
- more science in the city (like it is)

Torre della Lanterna / La Laterna
- two extra traderoutes for coastal citys, or
- more range for ships

Teatro alla Scala / La Scala
- free theater in every city, or
- rising up culture in the city or from every theater

Sistine Chapel / Cappella Sistina
- more culture from state religion buildings (like it is)

Apostolic Palace / Palazzo Apostolico
- religious elections (like it is)

Wonders in Austria

Hofburg Imperial Palace / Hofburg
- better relationship to civs with same religion, or
- more great people (marriage politic of habsburg)

Spanish Riding School / Spanische Hofreitschule
- riding units starts with more experience, or
- free building horse stable in every city

http://i43.tinypic.com/2el9y5j.jpg

i need a break now and go on later ;)

maybe there is someting you like :)

merijn_v1

Feb 20, 2009, 07:46 AM

Wonders in Spain

Wonders in Al Andalus

Alhambra / Alhambra
- free building castle in every city, or
- higher population in citys, or
- take away every religion excetp the state-religion (alhambra decree)

Wonders in France

Palace of Versailles / Château de Versailles
- reduce the support of nearby citys (like it is), or
- better relationship to other civs (all the contracts), or
- starting a golden age

Notre Dame de Paris / Cathédrale Notre-Dame de Paris
- people are happier in every city (like it is), or
- rising up culture in city or every religious building, or
- free building church in every city

Wonders in Burgundy

Cluny Abbey / Abbaye de Cluny
- rise up science in city or every monastery, or
- free building monastery in every city

Wonders in Venice

Leaning Tower of Pisa / Torre pendente di Pisa
- more science in the city (like it is)

Sistine Chapel / Cappella Sistina
- more culture from state religion buildings (like it is)

Apostolic Palace / Palazzo Apostolico
- religious elections (like it is)

i need a break now and go on later ;)

maybe there is someting you like :)

This wonders we already have. And IMO they good how they are now.

jessiecat

Feb 20, 2009, 07:53 AM

Nice suggestions, Chrismarck. As you can see, we've implemented most of these. I'll tell you what you could help me with. At the moment I'm working on a list of civ-specific Great People to be posted on the wiki. http://wikirhye.wikidot.com./rhyes-of-europe Later, we can put the completed list in the game.
What i need is GP's for the following civs.

Remember, they must have been alive and active before 1800.

Great General (any military leader )
Great Spy (could a politician or diplomat)
Great Prophet (could be philosopher or theologian)
Great Artist (Painter, writer, composer, sculptor etc.)
Great Scientist (any kind)
Great Merchant (could be banker, explorer, traveller etc.)
Great Engineer

Germany (5 to 6 of each)
Austria (5 to 6 of each)
Poland (5 to 6 of each)
Hungary (5 to 6 of each)

* To anybody who's interested. The Arabs, Cordobans and Ottomans are mostly done.
We still need GP's for the English, Norse (includes Danish), Swedish, Byzantine, Bulgaria,
Venice, Genoa, France, Burgundy and the Netherlands. ( I'll do the Spanish and the Portugese myself).
And panslavist has volunteered to do Russia.

pan-slavist

Feb 20, 2009, 09:36 AM

jessiecat

Feb 20, 2009, 09:50 AM

Ufff. It would be very easy to make the GP list for russia, but to make a different GP lists for Kievans and Moscowans is a very hard job, as the Kievan Rus was a predecesor to Russia and it collapsed in the 12th century and never came back as Kievan Rus, instead it came back as Russia. so actually you made two civilizations of just one - as i percieve it, muscovy was a new version of the previous russian civ-Kievan Rus, which collapsed. but even though i like to have the chance to play for both kievans and muscovans, i percieve it as alternate history - if the kievan rus survived. so i will try my best and make 12 GP of each kind for both of these great civilizations. to distinguish i will give the russian GPs to Moscow, and the Kievan Rus and Ukrainian GPs(with Ukrainian descent) to Kievan Rus. OK?

Sounds great to me. 10-12 of each to be shared between them would be fine. Maybe the earliest ones could be in the Kievan list. The hard part will be Great Spies but any politician, diplomat etc. would work. I agree its alt. history as Russia developed from both but for this mod we've treated them as separate civs up to 1800 however ahistorical that might be. In practice the AI as Kiev usually gets wiped out in the 13thC. Mongol invasions anyway. And the human player would hope to win a UHV victory shortly after 1500 anyway. But thanks for your help. You can post that here or if you join our wiki you can edit the list yourself.:)

merijn_v1

Feb 20, 2009, 10:22 AM

I (and I think my brother Wessel_V1 too) can do the Dutch list. We live there so I think it wouldn't be hard.

pan-slavist

Feb 20, 2009, 10:33 AM

jessiecat

Feb 20, 2009, 10:42 AM

So really no GP born after 1800s? that means no Rasputin, no Pushkin, Tolstoy, Dostoevskij, Chajkovskij and so. as for the politicians and diplomats it will be also difficult before 1800. I know it wont be historical but...cmon no Rasputin? what kind of russia wil that be?:D

OK. Be flexible and make 5 of each as early as you can. But no Rasputin.:eek:

EDIT Even a quick look at wiki got me 5 Russian writers before Pushkin. Please try a little harder.:D

pan-slavist

Feb 20, 2009, 11:11 AM

jessiecat

Feb 20, 2009, 11:19 AM

OK i will do my best, but i think i cant make it today, i will try to have it by tomorow night. I already have the Great Generals for russia - most of them died after 1800 but were born like 1750 or such, generals of the napoleonic wars such as Kutuzov. Is that ok? i guess it is cause they were generals already tens of years before 1800. One more thing - should I put explorers as Great Merchants or as GrScientists? I believe in Civ4 it was a habit to use them as merchants - Christobal Colon and such.
dont worry about me putting just the 18th century people i will try hard not to but the older ones are mostly legends and such.but i ll try
also i would like some russian to look at the list to say if its good or bad.

Please take your time. Theres no rush. When i really research things it takes me days. And I'm a trained historian. Wiki is a good primary source as it leads you to other links. I think explorers and travellers should count as merchants. And Great Generals could include early Kievan princes who lead military campaigns as well.

merijn_v1

Feb 20, 2009, 11:37 AM

For the GPs, here is an useful link for ideas. (their not filtered by livingdate)
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=199344

Or look at the XML files in Program files of your computer.

merijn_v1

Feb 20, 2009, 02:01 PM

jessiecat

Feb 20, 2009, 04:25 PM

I have a list with the Dutch GP names. Most of the GAs are painters, but we had a large number of them so it is logical. I also added Willem van Oranje. I don't know if he is okay, because it is also the leader of the Dutch. I toke all the names form wikipedia.

Really great list. Thanks for that. Great Spys are much more difficult. Even wiki isn't much help with finding them. I tried that link which was OK for some. Same with the XML files too. Thanks:)

Algeroth

Feb 20, 2009, 06:10 PM

Do you want just pure Austrian GP or can I throw some Bohemians in the mix?

jessiecat

Feb 21, 2009, 12:27 AM

Do you want just pure Austrian GP or can I throw some Bohemians in the mix?

Sure. As long as they don't appear on another civs list.

merijn_v1

Feb 21, 2009, 06:41 AM

Great Spys are much more difficult. Even wiki isn't much help with finding them.

I forgot them. I will look for some, but your right, we hadn't much (great) spies.

3Miro

Feb 21, 2009, 11:37 AM

I think we might have some general overlap in the GP names. There is famous composer that was born in Bulgaria, but lived and made music in Constantinople. Is he Bulgarian or Byzantine.

I will look at the code to see how complicated it would be to have nation specific GP to be born in the corresponding nations, but I think it would not be very easy.

BurnEmDown

Feb 21, 2009, 12:50 PM

I forgot them. I will look for some, but your right, we hadn't much (great) spies.

Really? What about Jans Bont? Heh, stupid I know, but couldn't resist :P
Sorry I don't have anything to say about the subject :blush:.

jessiecat

Feb 21, 2009, 04:07 PM

I will look at the code to see how complicated it would be to have nation specific GP to be born in the corresponding nations, but I think it would not be very easy.

Maybe having civ-specific GPs spawning in their own countries might just be too much work after all. Coming up with at least 35 names for every civ making a total of 700+ seems nearly impossible to me.
Having looked at the present code I think it would be a lot easier to edit the XML file taking out GPs from civs we're not using and substituting new names from some of our other civs. Like taking out Alexander the Great and adding Alexander Nevsky for example. That way we could have about 2 GPs in each category for each civ. I could do that for you if you like. Even a coding noob like me can edit XML. Do you want me to do that instead?
I could complete that in a day or two if you like.

pan-slavist

Feb 22, 2009, 01:34 AM

I think making the list is not such a problem if you can make the coding for civ specific GPs. As for the great spys - I made a list for russia, and i found so much GreatSpies- all of the wealthy counts that served as ambassadors, diplomats, lovers of the queen, and so on. I hadnt the slicest problem with the spies. When it comes to the overlapping GPs, i think we have two options. We can use the GP for both of the civs and distinguish them by the name (like one in greek and one in bulgarian). the other options is using the GP for the civ you will have more trouble finding the GP for.

3Miro

Feb 22, 2009, 12:27 PM

jessiecat

Feb 22, 2009, 12:31 PM

Making the list of GP is not the big problem. Coding it so that each nation gets people from the corresponding list will require more coding.

For the next 3 - 4 months I will not be able to devote as much time to the mod as I used to. I will still be fixing bugs and helping with discussions and so on, but sedna will have to be the sole main coder.

Like I said in the previous post (226), I can edit the present lists in the XML so they all represent our civs pretty easily once I have the names. That way we wouldn't have Chinese GPs etc. Should I do that ?

merijn_v1

Feb 22, 2009, 12:45 PM

I have updated my list of Dutch GP-names. I added Great-Spies and added some more other Great-Person-names.

sedna17

Feb 22, 2009, 02:00 PM

For the next 3 - 4 months I will not be able to devote as much time to the mod as I used to. I will still be fixing bugs and helping with discussions and so on, but sedna will have to be the sole main coder.

Hopefully nothing too problematic in real life? I should be able to take care of things for a while. I'll be defending my thesis around July, so I'll be out of commission for a while shortly before that, but other than that...

jessiecat

Feb 22, 2009, 03:24 PM

Hopefully nothing too problematic in real life? I should be able to take care of things for a while. I'll be defending my thesis around July, so I'll be out of commission for a while shortly before that, but other than that...

If you're going to do the next version, do you want me to revise the XML GP list as I suggested a couple of posts back in this thread?

sedna17

Feb 22, 2009, 10:52 PM

@Jessiecat: Yes please, for the next version.

merijn_v1

Feb 23, 2009, 02:58 AM

Really? What about Jans Bont? Heh, stupid I know, but couldn't resist :P
Sorry I don't have anything to say about the subject :blush:.

He wasn't actualy a GREAT spy. He was caught on his first mission and comitted suciude a few days later:lol:.

3Miro

Feb 23, 2009, 08:28 AM

Hopefully nothing too problematic in real life? I should be able to take care of things for a while. I'll be defending my thesis around July, so I'll be out of commission for a while shortly before that, but other than that...

I should defend mine in early May and I will need to work hard on writing it. I still am not ready with all the results either.

Stiepeler

Feb 23, 2009, 10:22 PM

I propose the "Walhalla Temple" in Germany for an European wonder: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walhalla_temple
The temple was modeled after the Greek Parthenon so you can easily use that icon.
Interesting to know, that the temple´s busts also include, next to great German personalties, foreign personalities from other culture related countries like Sweden, Netherlands, Austria, Swiss etc. So this "wonder" could also be build from one of those related countries and would still fit in the historical context.

jessiecat

Feb 23, 2009, 11:32 PM

Cethegus

Feb 24, 2009, 04:49 AM

Maybe it could be fit in to the mod anyway? St. Basil's Cathedral (The Kremlin) was constructed sometime in the 15th century, yet in Civ 4 (and RFC) the earliest it ever appears is in the 1700's. Couldn't the Walhalla Temple follow the same route, being able to be put up for construction already in the 1700's?

merijn_v1

Feb 24, 2009, 05:31 AM

If you gonna ad The Amsterdam Stock Exchange, I have some ideas.
1. Call it: Beurs van Amsterdam. It means the same but it's in Dutch.
2. It was designed to buy and sell stocks of companies. So I think you should give them a bonus for corporations. Like giving them +10:gold: per headquarter.
3. Because it's a Trade-Wonder I think it should be anabled with Trading Companies or Economics. (it is build in 1609, so I think it should be the last)

It also can replace the Wall Street, but I think their is a better my suggestions fits better with the original.

merijn_v1

Feb 24, 2009, 05:37 AM

And this could be the button for the Beurs van Amsterdam.

jessiecat

Feb 24, 2009, 08:49 AM

Not to discourage people thinking about new wonders, I'd remind everybody that we've still got a lot of agreed wonders that haven't been coded yet. I'd rather have had some help with the civ-specific GP list. Done 15 civs so far and only had help with one (the Dutch). Just five to go, Kievan Rus, Moscow, Poland, Hungary and Germany. Then I can edit the XML GP lists completely so all civs have at least one GP per each of 7 categories. Hopefully 2 of each if I can get the names.

Stiepeler

Feb 24, 2009, 11:39 AM

Nothing easier then this. At least for Germany. You can pick up the most important German personalities from my link regarding Walhall: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walhalla_temple

I´d recommend as followed: (each of the following persons lived or served before 1850, so I hope it fits into your time concept)

Generals:

- von Blücher http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gebhard_Leberecht_von_Bl%C3%BCcher
- von Moltke http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Moltke
- von Gneisenau http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Gneisenau
- von Scharnhorst http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhard_von_Scharnhorst

Trade:

- Jakob Fugger http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakob_Fugger

Engineer:

- Erwin von Steinbach http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erwin_von_Steinbach
- Peter Vischer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Vischer
- Franz Xaver von Baader http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Baader

Art:

- Johann Sebastian Bach http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Sebastian_Bach
- Ludwig van Beethoven http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beethoven
- Johannes Brahms http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahms
- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goethe
- Richard Wagner http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner

Religious/Prophet:

- Martin Luther http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther
- Nicolaus Ludwig Zinzendorf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolaus_Ludwig_Zinzendorf
- Immanuell Kant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kant

Spy: ?

Science:

- Carl Friedrich Gauss http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gau%C3%9F
- Johannes Gutenberg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Gutenberg
- Johannes Kepler http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kepler
- Gottfried Leibniz http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leibniz

jessiecat

Feb 24, 2009, 11:55 AM

Nice work. I was about to do Germany next. I'm trying keep them as early as possible. Like the Middle Ages where possible. But thanks.:goodjob:

Stiepeler

Feb 24, 2009, 12:25 PM

It´s not easy to find medivial GP for Germany. Of course there are some well known dukes that could stand for a great general as well but primarily they have been dukes or kings and not generals like the ones above. I try to pick up some GP that used to live from 1000 to 1500 AD if you like to. But I am unsure if I find some famous ones. Especially for engeneering and science it´s gonna be hard.

jessiecat

Feb 24, 2009, 12:36 PM

merijn_v1

Feb 25, 2009, 03:25 AM

Not to discourage people thinking about new wonders, I'd remind everybody that we've still got a lot of agreed wonders that haven't been coded yet.

Could you give a list of the Wonders that are almost coded, so we know what Wonders have a power yet. (and if you can, please give also the powers, so we know what powers are engaged.)
Could you also give a list of the Wonders that haven't a power yet, so we can give ideas for powers.

jessiecat

Feb 25, 2009, 03:50 AM

National Wonders

National Theatre (replaces Globe Theatre) included *
National Gallery (replaces Hermitage) *
National University (replaces Oxford University) *
National Epic (as RFC) *
Heroic Epic (as RFC) *
- Royal Academy (replaces Great Library) -suggested

Projects (3)

Atlantic Access (enabled by Astronomy)*
East India Company *
West India Company *

Corporations (7) - now implemented in the game (see wiki)

Colonies (17 included)

Brazil
Cuba
Capetown
East Africa
East Indies
Gold Coast
Ivory Coast
Hudson Bay
Malaya
Virginia
Far Eastern Treaty Ports (4 allowed)
Indian Trading Posts (3 allowed)

World Wonders (14 included)

Forbidden Palace * (included)
Summer Palace *
The Sistine Chapel, Rome *
Versailles, Paris *
Notre Dame, Paris *
The Leaning Tower, Pisa *
The Theodosian Walls, Constantinople *
Topkapi Palace, Constantinople *
Shrine of Uppsala, Norse *
Krak des Chevaliers *
The Monastery of Cluny *
The Round Church *
The Alhambra Palace *
The Palacio de Pena *

These have been suggested but not yet implemented:

The Tomb of Khalid ibn Al Walid (replaces the Statue of Zeus, enemies suffer 100% war weariness,
+1 Great General.)
The Dome of the Rock, Jerusalem (replaces the Taj Mahal, starts Golden Age +1 Great. Artist?)
Kalmar Castle, Sweden (replaces The Pentagon, all new units rec. +1 experience point?))
The Gardens of Al Andalus, Cordoba (replaces the Hanging Gardens, +1 health, +1 food per city)
The Golden Bull, Hungary (replaces the Shwedagon Paya, enables all religion civics)
The Brandenburg Gate, Berlin (replaces The Kremlin, -33% production costs in all cities)
The Basilica San Marco, Venice (replaces the Temple of Artemis, +100% trade routes + 1 Great Merchant)
The Palazzo San Giorgio, Genoa (replaces the Statue of Liberty, +1 free specialist per city, 1 Great Merchant)
The Escorial Palace, Spain (replaces the Spiral Minaret, +1 gold per all state religion buildings)
La Scala Opera House, Milan (replaces The Eiffel Tower. free monument per city)
St. Basil's Cathedral, Moscow (replaces The Mausoleum of Maussalos, +50% Golden Age length,
+1 Great Artist.)
St. Sophia Cathedral, Kiev (replaces Angkor Wat,+1 hammer per priest, can turn 3 citizens into priest))
The Jewish Quarter of Krakov, Poland (establishes Judaism in every large city?)
The Temple Mount, Jerusalem (replaces the Temple of Solomon)
Leonardo's Inventions, Italy (1 free scientist, 1 free artist in each city?)
The Copernican Revolution, Poland (as in Civ3)
Issac Newton's Laboratory, England (as in Civ3)
Magellan's Voyage, Portugal (as in Civ3)
Rembrandt's Masterpiece, Amsterdam (culture + happiness boost in all cities?)
Mozart's Concertos, Vienna (free theatres in all cities?)
Magna Carta, England (replaces the Pyramids, enables all govt. types)
Aztec Conquest?
Inca Conquest?

Just to update our list of wonders, projects and colonies. What is bolded has been included. What is not is still to be decided and/or implemented.

As I posted earlier. Many of the ones not yet in the game have art and are just waiting for sedna 17 to code. Though not all are likely to get in soon. Personally, I'd like to see the Royal Academy, Basilical San Marco, The Gardens of Al Andalus, The Golden Bull, The Escorial Palace and Magna Carta done next but that's just my opinion.