hey guys I have recently join the fourms and was just wondering which civilization in erbus is the most advanced and I don't mean just in technology but in magic and culture as well. but the doviello and the clan of couse don't fall under this catagory.

I'de Guess Amurites or Sheim.

I think perhaps the Kuriotates or Luichurp.

I'd say that in the most likely time-line several civs are about as developed as others, but along different paths.
Most cultured: Kuriotates & Balseraph first, Ljosalfar & Malakim runners up
Largest Empire, area: Bannor first, Luchuirp? & Hippus runners up. Maybe Lanun
Largest Empire, pop: Kuriotates first, Khazad? runners up
Greatest Magic: Amurites & Sehaim
Most political influence: Elohim first, runners up probably Bannor, Malakim, Grigori, Svartalfar, Balseraph
Richest: Khazad, runners up Lanun, Hippus, maybe Balseraph
Most feared: Infernal, Mercurian, Calabim, Clan, maybe Bannor. later Illians
Wildcard: Sidar. Probably advanced but very unknown.

For the Khazad being 2nd most populous, does that include the underhome? I don't know much about the lore, but it seems like if it were just the banished dwarves they should be pretty sparse.

Yeah, I;m not sure exactly what I was thinking, but it seemed like dwarven cities would be very crowded.

Sidar do seem like they could be very advanced. Possibly the Svartalfar too as they are must likely to have the eyes & eyes network in Erebus.

Yeah, I;m not sure exactly what I was thinking, but it seemed like dwarven cities would be very crowded.

That's cause the ceilings are so low.

I would think that the Sidar would be advanced, scholarly speaking. They aren't truly united, all of them are distant people who tend to there work like no other culture of people can, but they don't do anything for the good of the rest of the people or anything- example being that they are probably very, very unconcerned about medical details and the like, simply because it does not effect them.

It would be interesting for a foreigner to visit a Sidar city, if you could even find a concentration of that many Sidar willing to be in an enclosed environment. Visitors would be hard fought to find an actual shop amongst them, I think.

I would think that the Sidar would be advanced, scholarly speaking. They aren't truly united, all of them are distant people who tend to there work like no other culture of people can, but they don't do anything for the good of the rest of the people or anything- example being that they are probably very, very unconcerned about medical details and the like, simply because it does not effect them.

It would be interesting for a foreigner to visit a Sidar city, if you could even find a concentration of that many Sidar willing to be in an enclosed environment. Visitors would be hard fought to find an actual shop amongst them, I think.

Sandolphan's (sp?) entry is about a human visiting. I'd assume they actually live in massive cities, which the pedia suggests, so it's not the concentration that's the problem but the finding. Even in giant cities with little to no death, they would be off in their own little worlds. Their perception of time is quite different but they seem able to interact with others, be them sidar or something else, just fine.

I always kind of assumed that the Shades were but a relatively small upper class among the Sidar, like the Vampires upper class among the Calabim but much less oppressive and more willing to openly share their gift.

I always kind of assumed that the Shades were but a relatively small upper class among the Sidar, like the Vampires upper class among the Calabim but much less oppressive and more willing to openly share their gift.

Agreed, although I assume most of the Sidar population would be... unusual. Fully human, biologically, but even if not actively seeking to wane, a quiet, private people. They might share a meal with a traveler, but don't expect much convseration. If they tell a joke, expect it to be drier than the desert.
Short version, the average Sidar may be human, but a traveler on the streets assuming them to be shades may not be unreasonable.

Well, yeah, it goes without saying that all of them are at least a bit eccentric. Well, there might be a few normal ones, but in Sidar society their normality makes them weird.

Largest Empire, pop: Kuriotates first, Khazad? runners up

I kind of imagine the Clan as being one of the more populous civs - I sort of envision some of their cities matching a Kuritotate megapolis in numbers if not in actual size.

Whilst the Kuriotates would devote space to parks and aesthetically pleasing open squares, the Clan would squeeze another Warren in...

Largest Empire, area: Bannor first, Luchuirp? & Hippus runners up. Maybe LanunWhat's your reasoning for this, by the way? They don't seem to be a terribly expansionistic race, though I suppose they can manage a large farms and plantations with their golems...

It was mostly just a hunch, but with the best workers I figured they would be able to expand rapidly, even if they weren't very populous.

Good call on the Clan being very highly populated, that's a better choice than the Khazad--especially if one takes barbarian spawning as a sign of their procreative speed.

But aren't most orcs not part of CoE at least early on? Later on when Jonas and Sheelba had explained to the rest how it would be wise for them to join. Of course the two came to the conclusion that they should unite the scattered clans and tribes after careful meditation. (Hey I need a civ other than Malakim to play Empyrean.)

The clan might breed quickly, but we should assume a very high death rate, both at infancy and through young life due to accidents and internal violence (Orcs don't seem like caring parents). They might be overall populous, but I would not expect large cities, just a lot of large settlements strewn about.

I never imagine any dwarf race to be hugely populous - I thought dwarves generally breed slowly. Of course, I also never think of elves as too populous, but in the game they have the greatest cities after the Kuro.

When I imagine these civs, Sidar, the Kuro, and the Amurites do seem like those most likely to be "advanced" in terms of internal peace, wealth, knowledge and technical achievement combined. The Malikim, Elohim, Luch, and Khazad would be the next rung. The Ljos, Lanun, Bannor, Calabim, Grigori, Baselraph, and Sheahim next. Then Svaf, Hippus, and Ilians. Clan and Doviello at the bottom of course.

I see the Illians as an advanced civilization with lots of technological and magic prowess, especially since they'd leave the Age of Ice mostly intact and then proceed to work towards Auric's Ascension as quickly as possible. I also like to think that the game supports this as the Illians are great for both cottage and specialist economies, meaning that their tech rate is always very high.

if elves are immortal then why are there so few of them? is it because of always wielding glowing swords?

Perhaps because they don't breed as much as humans

But aren't most orcs not part of CoE at least early on? Later on when Jonas and Sheelba had explained to the rest how it would be wise for them to join. Of course the two came to the conclusion that they should unite the scattered clans and tribes after careful meditation. (Hey I need a civ other than Malakim to play Empyrean.)

Yay, I'm not the only one that plays Empyrean Clan of Embers!

Yay, I'm not the only one that plays Empyrean Clan of Embers!

If Brigit is on the map, my Clan of Embers always converts to the Empyrean and Chalid Astrakien frees her from her prison to overthrow Bhall.

If Brigit is on the map, my Clan of Embers always converts to the Empyrean and Chalid Astrakien frees her from her prison to overthrow Bhall.

A rebellion against the goddess they worship?

Well of course; societies face upheavals all the time.

Ultimately, I think FfH2 has been designed so that players can tell their own story. That's part of the beauty of FfH2; you're given the back story, and allowed to do whatever you want with it; you're only limited by your ability/wish to rationalize.

if elves are immortal then why are there so few of them? is it because of always wielding glowing swords?

Becauae they are not immortal in this game, they just live a lot longer.

Who says they're underpopulated in FfH? That's certainly not true from a gameplay perspective and I haven't seen any lore which contradicts that.

There are 2 elven nations, roughly equal in size each other nation
there are 14 human or mostly human nations
that is quite a gap...
if the elves are live 300 years on average, and the humans live 65 (probably less), and the elves had 1/10 as many people as the humans in the beginning of rebirth then they should have at least 1/5 if not more within 300 years. (these assumptions are probably horrendously inacurate)

the only reason i can think of is either a more bigger population gap in beginning, or the civil war constantly wiping out generations of elves. (How many years in each turn? i've been assuming 5, that's probably also to much)

There are 2 elven nations, roughly equal in size each other nation
there are 14 human or mostly human nations
that is quite a gap...
if the elves are live 300 years on average, and the humans live 65 (probably less), and the elves had 1/10 as many people as the humans in the beginning of rebirth then they should have at least 1/5 if not more within 300 years. (these assumptions are probably horrendously inacurate)

A longer life, could also imply a longer period it takes to reach full maturity and perhaps even a longer gestation period

There could also well be social reasons - perhaps Elves for the most part will only have one child for example, and/or have/had social taboos on when the appropriate time to have a child would be (ie; not just raised eyebrows when the bride has a lump, but perhaps within two years after marriage?)

Or perhaps Elves suffered a particularly high infant mortality rate in the Age of Ice - not helped by the mistrust sparked by the schism between the Winter/Summer court

If the elves started near the same time as the humans then they should have as much variety culturewise as humans do. The elven cultures seem very homogenous, they would have had the same amount of time as humans to diversify and create several elven civilizations, each unique with different value syatems. the values that emphasized population growth probably would have won out over the ones that didn't.
The elven values should be similar to humans, if only from social darwinism and prolonged exposure to human culture.

and why would the elves have a much higher mortality rate than the humans? They lived in warmer areas and had better technology. They were friends with their surroundings and weren't as warlike as other groups. (not so sure about this though)

I believe that elves tend to be much cleaner than humans, which means they didn't develop many of their own diseases. The most elven of the elven (the Fyrdwell) are vegetarians, and rely on foraging rather than intensive agriculture and herding, so they are not as often exposed to diseases than can pass from animals to humanoids. This means that elves, like the Native Americans, would have considerably weaker immunities to diseases than men. Their herb lore and medical knowledge can often make up for this, but we see from Kithra Kyriel's entry that when living among men a simple stomach flu that most mortals could easily overcome would be lethal to an elf.


I don't think they live in a warmer climate than most humans. The lands near the Umbrawood are described as a taiga. Their environment is certainly not as hot as the jungles where the Clan and Bannor live.


The elves tend to keep old technologies better, but they aren't as advanced as many of the human civs. Being in the nature sphere means they do advance technologically instead of regressing, but the expansion is a very slow one. Their culture does not really encourage technological innovation, and refining old skills.


The Elves of the Age of Magic weren't very warlike, but the civil war has hardened them considerably.



The main point isn't that they would have particularly high mortality rates, but rather low fertility rates. I think it would be reasonable to assume that Elves don't even reach puberty until around the age when human women reach menopause. Three hundred years into the age of rebirth might mean 15 generations of mankind, but only 2 or 3 generations of elves.

They live in contact with humans, travelers visit their city's, they go abroad, etc. so they would have plenty of exposure to disease, unlike native americans who had almost zero contact


But why do they only have one culture? if they are thousand's of years old then they should have several cultures. Are they similar to Imperial china? if that is so then they would have been forced to adapt or be assimilated by foriegn cultures. Like the Mongol invasions, or European dominitation in 1700's-1900's(read "Guns, Germs, and Steel" it talks about why society's succeed or fail)


Natural selection would have caused the one's that have genes that increase fertility would become more dominant, increasing the overall fertility of the elves.


The war's would make them more resistant to the age of ice in general, and i was responding to skitter's comment about it maybe because of high infant mortality

You're looking at this from a biological and evolutionary perspective. Elves are how they are from long exposure to their god, not from millions of years of evolution

Elves tend to be very isolationist. While there has long been some contact with humans, there was never very much. They used to have more contact with the Aifons, but those are all dead now. Elves only get close to those that already share their values and have more similar ways of life.

The elves are very arrogant, and consider all other cultures inferior to their own. This is true of both courts.

Why should living so long make them have more cultures? Having the same individuals live for thousands of years would probably have the opposite effect. Adults tend to become set in their ways, so the cultural changes come largely from innovations made by the youth over several generations. The elves have fewer youth, and fewer generations. The queens of both courts have rules at least since the Age of Magic, possibly the Age of Dragons, and have no intention of changing their culture an more than they have to. Both courts cultures have adapted to changing circumstances, just not as much as human civs. They won't change their language, for instance, since they would consider it a perfect, divine tongue derived directly from the mouth of Sucellus and Cernunnos.



Even if they are in the nature sphere, natural selection in Erebus is really supernatural selection, and does not work the same way as on Earth. Even so, the claim that natural selection always leads to higher fertility is not accurate. Real life studies have found that is essentially all species fertility rates tend to decrease when longevity increases, and that creatures reproduce more in response to greater environmental stresses. Humans and other animals naturally have fewer children when their children have a better chance to survive. There is no reason for genes that increase fertility to become dominant over genes that lead to extremely long life, especially if the later also delay menopause for thousands of years. The elves value being in balance with nature, so having more children than the environment can support would be discouraged. Throwing off this equilibrium would not be advantageous. There is a theory that the Bonobos evolved to have a much lower fertility rate than their cousins because of less scarcity of food and less competition among individuals. The importance of casual sex to their social relations made the ability to mate often without causing getting pregnant often socially advantageous, and the importance of these social relations to survival made low fertility evolutionarily favored. It may be worth noting that bonobo and elven society are both female dominated, and that both elves and bonobos are smaller and more slender than their cousins.

To the O.P..........the Dural.

Elves tend to be very isolationist. While there has long been some contact with humans, there was never very much. They used to have more contact with the Aifons, but those are all dead now. Elves only get close to those that already share their values and have more similar ways of life.

The elves are very arrogant, and consider all other cultures inferior to their own. This is true of both courts.

Why should living so long make them have more cultures? Having the same individuals live for thousands of years would probably have the opposite effect. Adults tend to become set in their ways, so the cultural changes come largely from innovations made by the youth over several generations. The queens of both courts have rules at least since the Age of Magic, possibly the Age of Dragons, and have no intention of changing their culture an more than they have to. Both courts cultures have adapted to changing circumstances, just not as much as human civs. They won't change their language, for instance, since they would consider it a perfect, divine tongue derived directly from the mouth of Sucellus and Cernunnos.



Even if they are in the nature spell, natural selection in Erebus is really supernatural selection, and does not work the same way as on Earth. Even so, the claim that natural selection always leads to higher fertility is not accurate. Real life studies have found that is essentially all species fertility rates tend to decrease when longevity increases, and that creatures reproduce more in response to greater environmental stresses. Humans and other animals naturally have fewer children when their children have a better chance to survive. There is no reason for genes that increase fertility to become dominant over genes that lead to extremely long life, especially if the later also delay menopause for thousands of years. The elves value being in balance with nature, so having more children than the environment can support would be discouraged. Throwing off this equilibrium would not be advantageous.

I agree completely here. Just look at our own history.... The vast majority of important advancements have been made by relatively young people. Darwin's Theory of Evolution, Einstein's Theory of General Relatively, etc... Both were in their 30s when they first formulated their theories. Age tends to make people set in their ways, so advancements are generally made by young people.

To the O.P..........the Dural.

The Dural are an FF civ, so I don't think they count in the standard lore.

If the elves started near the same time as the humans then they should have as much variety culturewise as humans do.

The elven cultures seem very homogenous, they would have had the same amount of time as humans to diversify and create several elven civilizations, each unique with different value syatems. the values that emphasized population growth probably would have won out over the ones that didn't.
The elven values should be similar to humans, if only from social darwinism and prolonged exposure to human culture.

I don't see that that is a given. The sheer fact they are longer lived may actually mean that in many ways they generally follow a slower pace of life (in a similar way that it is believed that a long lived species such as a tortoise perceives a unit of time quite differently to a gnat, and how and adult perceives the length of a year as shorter than a child).

Humans, by nature of their shorter lifespans have perhaps developed into more frenetic beings, whilst Elves have perhaps developed a more thoughtful, perhaps even conservative outlook that makes them less prone to splinter off into various factions. Indeed, perhaps this would even go some way to indicate what a real culture shock the schism of the Summer and Winter courts would have been to the Elves as a whole?

and why would the elves have a much higher mortality rate than the humans? They lived in warmer areas and had better technology. They were friends with their surroundings and weren't as warlike as other groups. (not so sure about this though)

I'm kind of assuming that the climate of the Elven lands would have dropped in the Age of Ice. Perhaps seeing a change from temperate woodland. That whilst friendly with their surroundings, what they had known changed rapidly so that they were presented with almost alien conditions

- perhaps deciduos-like trees became barren with the temperature drop, perhaps ground ice hindered the growth of plants, perhaps the natural conservationist amongst Elves means that - unlike humans - they would be less prepared to change their diet to meet the new needs. Again, I guess I'm imagining a conservatism amongst them that perhaps implies a susceptibility to sudden change.

Elves tend to be very isolationist. While there has long been some contact with humans, there was never very much. They used to have more contact with the Aifons, but those are all dead now. Elves only get close to those that already share their values and have more similar ways of life.

The elves are very arrogant, and consider all other cultures inferior to their own. This is true of both courts.

Why should living so long make them have more cultures? Having the same individuals live for thousands of years would probably have the opposite effect. Adults tend to become set in their ways, so the cultural changes come largely from innovations made by the youth over several generations. The elves have fewer youth, and fewer generations. The queens of both courts have rules at least since the Age of Magic, possibly the Age of Dragons, and have no intention of changing their culture an more than they have to. Both courts cultures have adapted to changing circumstances, just not as much as human civs. They won't change their language, for instance, since they would consider it a perfect, divine tongue derived directly from the mouth of Sucellus and Cernunnos.



Even if they are in the nature sphere, natural selection in Erebus is really supernatural selection, and does not work the same way as on Earth. Even so, the claim that natural selection always leads to higher fertility is not accurate. Real life studies have found that is essentially all species fertility rates tend to decrease when longevity increases, and that creatures reproduce more in response to greater environmental stresses. Humans and other animals naturally have fewer children when their children have a better chance to survive. There is no reason for genes that increase fertility to become dominant over genes that lead to extremely long life, especially if the later also delay menopause for thousands of years. The elves value being in balance with nature, so having more children than the environment can support would be discouraged. Throwing off this equilibrium would not be advantageous. There is a theory that the Bonobos evolved to have a much lower fertility rate than their cousins because of less scarcity of food and less competition among individuals. The importance of casual sex to their social relations made the ability to mate often without causing getting pregnant often socially advantageous, and the importance of these social relations to survival made low fertility evolutionarily favored. It may be worth noting that bonobo and elven society are both female dominated, and that both elves and bonobos are smaller and more slender than their cousins.

I spoke of human contact chiefly to refute your point about disease, any contact is enough to spread disease (Pizaro, Cortes, Mississipian civilization)

If the humans were more advanced than the elves in most aspects during the Age of Magic then why were they so arrogant?

Cultural change would be slow I'll admit, but it wouldn't be stagnant. Cultural would still occur and splinter factions would schism and form new nations.

Natural selection would be similar, the gods would have an impact but they have interfered very little since Age of Dragons (besides Mulcarn and Mistress of Pain). Life expectancy would have dropped dramatically near the end of the Age of Magic with the Civil War, Fall of Bhall, Mulcarn, and the beginning of the Age of Rebirth being so dangerous. Most of several generations would have been wiped out and that would have led to a higher birth rate among survivors. "creatures reproduce more in response to greater environmental stresses. Humans and other animals naturally have fewer children when their children have a better chance to survive." The Age of Ice was a fairly large enviromental factor, and their children probably wouldn't have had all that large chance to survive compared to earlier times. The equilibrium was already thrown off, they would try to restore while grabbing more land for themselves.

Just how long do elves live? I'm working off of the assumption that the average is about 300-400 years.

The Age of Ice was a fairly large enviromental factor, and their children probably wouldn't have had all that large chance to survive compared to earlier times.

Uh-oh, I seem to be contradicting myself...
You are good at this. I haven't had a good arguement in months.;)

Just how long do elves live? I'm working off of the assumption that the average is about 300-400 years.
Most signs indicate two to three thousand years, at least for Arendel and Faeryl's generation.

oh...
I'm probably wrong then...
(given a million or so more years I would be right!!!!)
Thanks for a throughly good time MC, Haldane, Skitters, Tyrs, and Valkrionn
;)

We don't know how long the average elf lives, but we know that Faeryl and Arendel were alive long before the fall of Bhall and are still physically in good health centuries into the Age of Rebirth. The Age of Ice was the shortest age at about 400 years. I put the lower limit on the average elven lifespan at about a thousand years, at least among the upper classes. Many elves may live far longer than that. It is of course possible that recent generations of elves have much shorter lifespans than their ancestors. I tend to think that even humans in the Age of Magic routinely lived to be 2 to 3 hundred years old and that elves considered this too short a lifetime to even matter, so they may well have been practically immortal back then.



I never said that the humans were more advanced in most aspects. They were probably about equal or slightly inferior before Kylorin discovered Sorcery and led his apprentices in their dark experiments. This knowledge would not have reached most of his subjects, however, so the average elf may have been better off. Also, 2 of Kylorin 21 apprentices were elves, so they shared in some of his advances.


Even if Man was more advanced in the Age of Magic, elven views of Man would not quickly change from the Age of Dragons. Back then, all men were nearly as primitive as the Doviello of the Age of Ice. There were a few attempts at agriculture and animal husbandry, but these tended to fail due to the cataclysms that marked that age. Men wandered the face of Erebus in nomadic bands running from one disaster to another, and fight each other in the names of gods and beasts they had never met and knew nothing about (many of which weren't real gods anyway). Meanwhile, the Elves had settled down and lived in the presence of Sucellus, who had chosen to adopt them like his own children and to teach them many arts. While Man had become more and more primitive and shorter lived in the years since their descent from Nemed, the elves had slowly advanced and maintained the longevity of Nemed's first children. Men were ignorant and chaotic, and they tended to betray whatever gods they worshiped to adopt other gods whenever it suited them. That might even worse than being devoted to an enemy god in their mind, because at least enemies stand for something. While elves always looked down on Man, they got along very well with the Aifons. The Aifons had become a civilized a devout race just like themselves, and were loyal to a god with whom Sucellus got along quite well. They may even have maintained their longevity, but that much is not known.

Due to the differences in longevity, very few humans ever grow to know the things that elves would learn in their childhood--which is probably as long as a human's entire life. Most elves probably look on humans as being children, ugly children, that have no hope of growing up. Elves have high aesthetic standards, so many wouldn't want to associate with the plain looking mortals. Others may fear growing emotionally close to someone that will inevitably die in what would seem like mere weeks. Many just wouldn't have the temperament to put up with the impatience and impulsiveness of humans, just like many humans have trouble keeping up with 2 year olds.



There has been considerable societal change. The schism between the two courts is pretty major. The Svartalfar ideology allowed them to adapt more than the Ljosalfar, as they were willing to lie, cheat, and steal from others in order to survive. They probably acted rather like the Doviello and survived by destroying the remnants of civilization, but without giving up acting civilized among themselves. The Ljosalfar had a much harder time and probably would have died out, had not Cernunnos himself come to live with them and lead them personally.

There were other unaligned groups too, but they were mostly small and insignificant. Most of them probably joined with one of the larger nations once they made contact again after the ice retreated. The only ones we really know about are the Once Elves, who were kidnapped in the middle of the Age of Magic (before the conflict between the two courts began) and taken prisoner in the part of the underworld ruled by Laroth. They eventually escaped to the Shadow Rift (aka Shadowed Vale), where they lived for centuries without any sunlight. Laroth probably let them escape on purpose so the tomes that would be used to create the Sidar would make it to the surface and help empower him. Their leader Arak the Erlking remained in the underworld to guard the passage, while his eldest son Haerlond Gossam became their king. When a young Auric Ulvin and his friend wandered into the rift around the time the Heartstone went missing, Haerlond used them as a scapegoat and was going to have them executed. Varn and Talia helped them escape, and when Auric broke the barrier separating the Rift from Creation and let the sun shine in Varn was rewarded by seeing Lugus and becoming his chief priest. The term Once Elf may imply that they changed too much to really be considered elves anymore. I tend to think that they are not just pale like the Svartalfar, but devoid of any pigmentation in their skin, hair, and eyes (as such, all but Varn and Talia were blinded when the sun shone through). I also tend to think they don't live as long, although 700 years or so is still quite reasonable. Once Elf culture would be dramatically different from that of the other elves factions.





The Age of Ice may very well have moved the elves towards having shorter lives and longer longevity, but not nearly enough to bring them back in line with humanity. Their lifespan now could be a tenth of what it used to be and still seem long by human standards.

That renders most of my points moot

The elves tend to keep old technologies better, but they aren't as advanced as many of the human civs. Being in the nature sphere means they do advance technologically instead of regressing, but the expansion is a very slow one. Their culture does not really encourage technological innovation, and refining old skills.
"They aren't as advanced as many human civs"

The elves faced the same problems for the most part. Sucellus couldn't protect them from the damage of the Godswar

There has been one major change in their long history.

There weren't many unaligned groups before the rise of Mulcarn. (I had forgotten about the Once Elves, only mention I can of them is in the Malakim entry. Were else is their history mentioned?)

(Quick question about Yvain, is he elven or is he an ent?)

We should probably get back on topic at some point.
So here's my list:
Luchuirp
Ljosofar/Svartalfar
Kuriotates/Amurites/Sheiam
Grigori/Sidar
Bannor/Khazad
Elohim/Illians/Lanun
Calabim/Belseraphs
Hippus
Mercurians/Infernals
Clan of Embers
Doviello

To respond directly to the O.P.
I'd say that the most advanced civ would be either the Luchuirp or Amurites, depending on whether you find technology or magic more impressive. That being said, each civ is a master of their own particular field, be that summoning dead gods, knowing as much as possible about the gods or building insanely "productive" slums. Overall the Lurchip and Amurites are the winners, but they could both be beaten in certain fields. Personally, I don't think its possible to rate advancement in terms of culture, so I'm not gonna touch that one. (Though when it comes to manipulating culture, pretty sure the Balseraphs win hands down)

"They aren't as advanced as many human civs"
I didn't really mean many, just some. The elves are probably above average, but tend to be lazy so they have allen behind the most scholarly or technologically adventurous civs.


The elves faced the same problems for the most part. Sucellus couldn't protect them from the damage of the Godswar

The Godswar probably lasted for thousands or even millions of years. Sucellus managed to stay out of it and to keep his lands and followers safe for the vast majority of this time. I tend to think that once Sucellus joined the war the conflict reached the point where Dagda called for the Compact within less than 1 year. After being safer and more advanced than humans for that long the even view fo their superiority wouldn't change much even if their society was pretty much destroyed at the end of that age.



There has been one major change in their long history.

The end of the Godswar and signing of the Compact was a major change too. It meant they lost their constant contact wiht their god and had to set up their own government (the one with 2 queens alternating reigns) instead of following his orders directly. It meant that the forest itself no longer interviened to save the lives of careless elves. Before that, death was almost entirely unknown to the elves.

There weren't many unaligned groups before the rise of Mulcarn. (I had forgotten about the Once Elves, only mention I can of them is in the Malakim entry. Were else is their history mentioned?)

I think there were some unalgned groups, but these would mostly just be remote vilages where few people knew or cared about what happened in their central government.

I think the only place the pedia mentions them by name is in Rathaus's pedia entry, when he has to avoid them in order to make it thorugh the passage to the underworld to try to serve Arawn (but since the portal leads to an area controlled by Laroth, actually to get the Netherblade to serve him). There is also a brief reference in the FfH History section, but most of what we know come from the forum. I think I've already said most of it.


(Quick question about Yvain, is he elven or is he an ent?)

He was originally an Elven Druid, but Kael decided to change him to a Treant because he wanted to use the art that the art team had already made for the Warhammer mod (most members of the art team for that mod and FfH are the same)

I never liked that change. I'm thinking that when I eventually release my modmod I'll change Yvain to a Satyr druid, making the "favorite son of Cernunnos" literal instead of just figurative. (Also in my version, Satyr is its own racial promotion that gives a slightly better forest bonus than elven and allows Mezmerize Animal with Subdue Animal and a similar Mezmerize Beast spell with Subdue Beast. Yvain would have subdue animal, and subdue beast would be made availible to disciples as well as recon units. Satyrs would uprae to Beastmasters, and beastmaters would once again start wiht subdue animal and subdue beast, but have a level prereq.)



Why do I keep responding to you? I have 4 papers to write tonight! I should really get back to focusing on that.

I admit defeat.

Thanks for a good argument.

You're right about Yvain, he should be either a satyr or elven, from the civ and wiki entries I got the impression that he was an elve.


Why do I keep responding to you? I have 4 papers to write tonight! I should really get back to focusing on that.

The Distractor!!!

I think the most advanced would be the civs ruled by those leaders who lived the longest, simply because long life = better chances for a quest for knowledge.

Sheim and Calabim are good example; if you've been around since the beginning of human creation, chances are you've seen it all, no matter what.

On the flipside, a smart ruler doesn't mean a smart nation, the above being all evil f***s, it's probably in their best intentions to keep the peasants as dumb as can be. For a more all-around effect, I think the Amurites and Sidar are on the top of that list..

They are advanced magic wise, not culture or tech.
The Kuriotates has an immortal dragon indirectly ruling them and arguably have the best system of goverment.
The Luichuirp and the Khazad have very long lived leaders, along with golems.
The Ljosolfar and Svartalfar have very old leaders and an advanced culture.
The Balseraphs have the strongest culture (gamewise) and Perpentach, who originated in the early Age of Magic.
The Elohim civilization has controled many of the most significant and powerful places on Erebus in their history.
The Illians were in control of the world for 400 years and suffered very little loss of tech from Mulcarn's ascendance and have Auric on their side.
The Bannor were the most powerful nation after Patria's fall until Bhall's fall and have a long and glorious history.

The Kuriotates does not have the best form of government, they just have a extremely good leader. Without Cardith, their civilization surely will fall apart, and that does not count as a good governmental system.

I said arguably.
They have an extremely stable goverment with an almost immortal leader, there is very little repression.
The leader is fair.
The society is very accepting of other ways of thinking.
The people have far more of a say than in the Calabim or the Illians for example.

Being around for a long time in the cases of Os'Gabella and her two brags doesn't mean them leading an advanced civilization, if you ask me.
The Sheaim appear to me more like a bunch of outcasts, murderers and worse who managed to escape justice. Some rogue mages and such for the punch, but overall a society where the powerful and educated clearly don't care about sharing their knowledge.
For the Calabim an advanced society would just mean trouble. Them not having access to Elder Councils is a good example. I imagine the whole lot of the people being just cattle for the - very few - vampires.
I see these ones actually as some of the least advanced civilizations.

Being around for a long time in the cases of Os'Gabella and her two brags doesn't mean them leading an advanced civilization, if you ask me.
The Sheaim appear to me more like a bunch of outcasts, murderers and worse who managed to escape justice. Some rogue mages and such for the punch, but overall a society where the powerful and educated clearly don't care about sharing their knowledge.
For the Calabim an advanced society would just mean trouble. Them not having access to Elder Councils is a good example. I imagine the whole lot of the people being just cattle for the - very few - vampires.
I see these ones actually as some of the least advanced civilizations.
I imagine the Calabim as being somewhat analogous to Tsarist Russia: brutal, backward, and belligerent. The vast majority of the populace are serfs, all of the land is owned by the vampire aristocracy, the vampires form the core of the army and are shielded by thousands of conscripts conscripted more for use as fodder than as warriors. Except they might also literally be "eaten" by their masters.