Is there any chance of changing the barbarian AI back to the way it worked in the previous version? While I approve of skeletons and lizardmen actually attacking you early game, the barbarian state's new tactic of focusing everything on a single player is quite frustrating, especially since it seems to almost always be the human player. Having to fight off every lizardman and skeleton that spawns on the entire continent is quite annoying. And the barbarians having that level of organization seems unrealistic.

Is there any chance of changing the barbarian AI back to the way it worked in the previous version? While I approve of skeletons and lizardmen actually attacking you early game, the barbarian state's new tactic of focusing everything on a single player is quite frustrating, especially since it seems to almost always be the human player. Having to fight off every lizardman and skeleton that spawns on the entire continent is quite annoying. And the barbarians having that level of organization seems unrealistic.


Hear, hear!

I have given up playing FFH .34 games with the raging barb option on for this very reason. Once the barbs turn their attention to you, and they will, you will be targeted a long time...maybe for the rest of the game. While being targeted the AI civs are ignored and can expand at will leaving you with no place to go (unless you declare war) and you will fall far behind in research, wonder, GPs, etc. as you fend off barbs constantly.

lol its kinda ironic that, given the new introduction of passive XP gain buildings in FF, it is hardly of much use since you're fed so much XP through the Barb hordes rushing at you that you go over the passive cap easily :lol:

Then again, though I find the barbs annoying at times, they are after all a decent source of XP once you actually start funneling them down through your killing fields--which makes destroying your neighbours that much easier once you have a veteran barb killing army up and running.
It does slow you down slightly at the start in expansion-wise though, and quite micro intensive at times that it gets tedious.

lol its kinda ironic that, given the new introduction of passive XP gain buildings in FF, it is hardly of much use since you're fed so much XP through the Barb hordes rushing at you that you go over the passive cap easily :lol:

Then again, though I find the barbs annoying at times, they are after all a decent source of XP once you actually start funneling them down through your killing fields--which makes destroying your neighbours that much easier once you have a veteran barb killing army up and running.
It does slow you down slightly at the start in expansion-wise though, and quite micro intensive at times that it gets tedious.

I'm sorry, but IMO FFH .34 games with the raging barb option on become predictable, monotonous, and very tedious. Unless you have a Great Commander or two (you can play Pass the Great Commander) your units are quickly capped at the 100 XP limit. At least when the Raiders trait allowed you to exceed 100 XP you could make something out of the tedious exercise.

I've expressed this problem several times in the FFH so I feel badly bringing it up again here. Targeting one civ at a time is fine. Not knowing when to break off the targeted attack and move on to another civ is not fine. It really ruins the raging barb games IMO.

lol I was actually agreeing with you on how tedious it could actually get, just acknowledging that the barb attack itself though is a mixed bag as it actually gives pretty decent XP if farmed.
And actually in 043 you do go over the 100XP limit now on barbs, so I believe with the Commander you can actually hit pretty impressive levels just on barbs alone.

I usually do not play with Raging Barbs on because of the tediousness of it all.
However, even with the option off, the new Barb AI which causes almost all the Barb units in the world to attack instead of just wandering around causes the very same issue on large maps with large unsettled areas.
As pointed out by Kael in the other thread on the main FfH forum, the number of barbs is determined by the amount of unsettled areas in the world.
But with the current Barb AI, it causes a large amount of barbs to come streaming in at the targeted civ.

Though this is mainly an issue with the FfH Barb AI, it'll be nice if we could somehow limit the barbs from the other end of the continent from taking a long march over to the other corner of the world to attack--that would make at least those larger, more sparsely populated maps like tectonics from having overwhelming barbarian attacks.

Well, since you are in FF now, you can forget about the 100 XP cap. No such thing.

EDIT: So I post slow...

^^ thats what I noticed on my 101XP axeman, then I continued killing 100++ more barbarians to free brigit... :lol:

The ideal is that Barbarian XP gives (far) less XP than you would like to get for your trouble well before 100 though.

You guys are kidding right?

Raging barbs is a joke, now whats not a joke is when a @#$! skeleton upgrades to a specter. That is a rude surprise.

The only thing I hated about raging barbs was when they cacked half the civs due to AI stupidity, now I sit back and lap up that xp.

The biggest problem I have with the current barb AI is that in most of my games they tend to wipe out 3-4 of the AI civs.

U c I am not running into that problem anymore for some reason, perhaps I have too many civs so there are not as many barbarians cities. hmm.

I have the same complaints: the barbarian hordes are pretty ridiculous now. They wipe out AI civs on a regular basis and require tediously moving a dozen warriors around every turn to protect your improvements. The XP is nice until you lose all the level 7-8 units on 0.4% attack odds. :(

I'm playing my second FF .43 game as Decius/Malakhim.

I tried raging barbs one more time. As expected the barbs started coming on Turn 48. I sent my two exploring units back to defend and a good thing too as my only city was soon under seige.

I withstood the attack, but 8 of the 11 AI civs did not and were wiped out before turn 250.

About the other three...

Jonas Endain - was at peace with the barbs, but something happened (not too cultured/high in pts) and the barbs turned on him and wiped him out.

Duracast (I think I got this right - the Spidey Guys) - were at peace with the barbs. Expanding quite nicely and low in pts.

An unknown Scions of Patria civ - does one of the leaders have the Barbarian trait? If so, fine. I just had bad luck the computer randomly selected 3 AI civs with the Barbarian trait. If not, then there is a problem. I have opened the World Builder a number of times and never saw a barb in their territory. They have expanded (Turn 600) to about 20 cities - all small pop. of course and with many defenders.

I even managed to circle the wagons and block off access to my three cities using mountain peaks, small bodies of water and captured elephants. The AI barbs continue to display bizarre behavior. When I block off all access they seem to disappear off the map - although there is a city near me with about 20 defenders. When I open an access route to my cities, they are back in high numbers. Occasionally a Wolf Rider will bounce off an Elephant defender and later die on the second try.

Again, if that Scions civ has the BAR trait, I guess I get it. If not, I'm wondering why those barbs don't go after that civ once in awhile, especially when blocked from mine.

I'm playing my second FF .43 game as Decius/Malakhim.

I tried raging barbs one more time. As expected the barbs started coming on Turn 48. I sent my two exploring units back to defend and a good thing too as my only city was soon under seige.

I withstood the attack, but 8 of the 11 AI civs did not and were wiped out before turn 250.

About the other three...

Jonas Endain - was at peace with the barbs, but something happened (not too cultured/high in pts) and the barbs turned on him and wiped him out.

Duracast (I think I got this right - the Spidey Guys) - were at peace with the barbs. Expanding quite nicely and low in pts.

An unknown Scions of Patria civ - does one of the leaders have the Barbarian trait? If so, fine. I just had bad luck the computer randomly selected 3 AI civs with the Barbarian trait. If not, then there is a problem. I have opened the World Builder a number of times and never saw a barb in their territory. They have expanded (Turn 600) to about 20 cities - all small pop. of course and with many defenders.

I even managed to circle the wagons and block off access to my three cities using mountain peaks, small bodies of water and captured elephants. The AI barbs continue to display bizarre behavior. When I block off all access they seem to disappear off the map - although there is a city near me with about 20 defenders. When I open an access route to my cities, they are back in high numbers. Occasionally a Wolf Rider will bounce off an Elephant defender and later die on the second try.

Again, if that Scions civ has the BAR trait, I guess I get it. If not, I'm wondering why those barbs don't go after that civ once in awhile, especially when blocked from mine.

No Scion leader has the barb trait, so that's pretty odd... Must be something with the Barb AI

In the same game above, I noticed the following barb funny stuff:

I observed a barb city just outside my border. It had at least 20 barb units sitting in it, including 13 Lizardmen. However, they never budged. Had they came out at once, they would have been problematic.

However, I was really floored when I noticed one turn all of those Lizardmen had turned into Lizard Rangers!

Two points on this:

1. It was fairly early in the game. Only three civs were left. I was ahead on tech and had not researched Animal Handling yet. I had no Tier 3 units. I'm fairly certain the Duracast and Scion also had none. Yet, here was the AI throwing out Tier 3 Lizard Rangers that are damn hard to kill even with heavily promoted Swordsmen - even with Iron weapons. In addition to the bunch in that city, I was getting 2-3 each turn crossing into my borders (now opened up when I built another city. They were easily taking down my Elephant blockers. The only way I could kill them is to damage them with an Archer's bombard and then kill them with a Swordsman or one of the Stooges.

The main point I'm making is that the introduction of barb units is generally tied into the units of the player and other AI civs. I felt the Lizard Rangers arrived too soon. And, as the beneficiary of all barbs in this game, well...you get the idea.

2. I have never seen the AI upgrade barb units like this before in a FF or FFH game. I realize they can spawn/build at will, but what about upgrading?

Did they have the necessary Hunting Lodge to upgrade in the city? Probably not. How much Gold would it cost you to upgrade 13 Lizardmen to Lizard Rangers? Over 3,000 Gold, I believe. Do barbs accumulate Gold and use it for upgrading units?

I think it can be a balance issue if the barbs start upgrading their units en masse without the same requirements as the human player.

In sum, I realize some of the developers have been fiddling with barb AI. It is tough now with them arriving very early in slower speed games and being targeted for a long time. However, with these two 'new' developments (I had not seen them before anyway), it is a real bugger! I play only at Monarch, by the way.

Finally, I was afraid the AI would unleash all 13 of those Lizard Rangers on me at once...and they did. I stupidly killed a barb Worker with a captured Griffon (why doesn't the non-HN Griffon capture the Worker?) and got too close to the city with the Rangers in it. Out they all came, with several Wolf Riders besides. They killed the Griffon and I had to pull all my guys into my cities. Fortunately, they were killed when they attacked the cities and they could not pillage improvements. However, the Wolf Riders took out a lot of improvements.

Too many Rangers, too soon!!!

@Sarisin - sounds like a fantastic game :)

Recently spent the first 150 tuns trapped in my capital due to a constant stream of barns. As the eloheim, i soak this up and ended up with 15 100xp+ warriors and scouts. I then broke out of the capital fast and captured the two closest barb cities (which had pretty decent population by this point) and have now set-up a pretty decent empire.

At around turn 200, the barbs stopped targeting me (well much less aggressively) and am now expanding. However, it seems that the elves were not targeted as heavily and have an empire almost twice the size.

Anyway, i agree with a few post that state the barbs are now quite challenging but to be honest, it is better now than the push over they have been in the past. Yet to see Barb rangers arriving before i have a counter

As Elohim, soak it up with monks to get them to affinity level fast~ :lol:

One other barb strategy worth noting is their spamming of Workers and building of roads.

I find if there is a lot of open territory on the map (there usually is in raging barb games as many AI civs are wiped out) they will undergo a massive road-building operation, especially leading up to your civ. Mounted barb units then zip around the map on these roads going after targeted civs.

Of course, it is fun to send a couple of units out to pick off their Workers, but they spawn/build replacements like wildfire.

Also, I like to dead-end them by sticking a couple of strong units at the end of their road leading to my civ to welcome them. ;)

Yeah you see thats the type of thing you should do, instead of complaining about how tuff the barbarians are you figured out a way to screw them over. Personally I love the massive barbarian hordies, even if I am on the receiving end. BRING IT. Especially if I am playing a civ that has a terrain affinity such as elves or lizardmen, they are toast.

While I approve of skeletons and lizardmen actually attacking you early game...

I don't like this at all actually. A lizardman has something like a 30% chance to kill a warrior defending your city, and short of keeping your scout to defend too, there's nothing else you can do about it on turn 10 besides cross your fingers. If you get wiped out in single player, you laugh it off and start a new game, but if it happens in a multiplayer game with 3 other people, it's incredibly annoying. Hasn't happened to me yet, but only because I've gotten lucky on rolls...

I've always seen the barbarians as a way to equalize remote starts and crowded starts. If you get a remote start, the barbarians slow your early expansion and provide experience to keep up with the warmongering civs that started near each other. The barbarians shouldn't be killing people off or providing you with a dozen level 10 units. The raging barbs option should offer that, not the default setting.

I don't like this at all actually. A lizardman has something like a 30% chance to kill a warrior defending your city, and short of keeping your scout to defend too, there's nothing else you can do about it on turn 10 besides cross your fingers. If you get wiped out in single player, you laugh it off and start a new game, but if it happens in a multiplayer game with 3 other people, it's incredibly annoying. Hasn't happened to me yet, but only because I've gotten lucky on rolls...

I've always seen the barbarians as a way to equalize remote starts and crowded starts. If you get a remote start, the barbarians slow your early expansion and provide experience to keep up with the warmongering civs that started near each other. The barbarians shouldn't be killing people off or providing you with a dozen level 10 units. The raging barbs option should offer that, not the default setting.

Lizardmen have a much smaller chance than that. They have -25% city attack, which makes them effectively equal strength, Warriors have a city defense bonus (something I actually don't like and take out of my versions), plus you have natural city defense on top of that.

Lizardmen rarely take out city defenders in my experience. Now, fighting them outside of cities, that's much less fun. Damn I am glad they can't pillage.

I don't like this at all actually. A lizardman has something like a 30% chance to kill a warrior defending your city, and short of keeping your scout to defend too, there's nothing else you can do about it on turn 10 besides cross your fingers. If you get wiped out in single player, you laugh it off and start a new game, but if it happens in a multiplayer game with 3 other people, it's incredibly annoying. Hasn't happened to me yet, but only because I've gotten lucky on rolls...

I've always seen the barbarians as a way to equalize remote starts and crowded starts. If you get a remote start, the barbarians slow your early expansion and provide experience to keep up with the warmongering civs that started near each other. The barbarians shouldn't be killing people off or providing you with a dozen level 10 units. The raging barbs option should offer that, not the default setting.

Wow u blow my mind. You get all technical with the barbarians...Let me enlighten you...choosing the barb settings means you are willing to deal with them...for the record (hail max) I have never lost a city to Lizzies.

Explore the map, the barbs love fog of war...find choke points, they exist...park units on hills, is this thread for newbies?

If not, build roads, use them.

I'm beginning to think there are additional problems with the barb AI in FF vs. FFH. I've only played two games of .43 FF, but I'm seeing some things that I didn't see in the dozen or so games of FFH .34h.

1. See the attached pic. This was the second time I discovered a city on my border with a ton of barb defenders. For what? I think I remember something in the FFH .34 changelog that fixed this. I don't remember seeing any barb cities with nearly 30 defenders.

2. There is definitely something fishy with the upgrading of barbs in FF. Again, I saw a group of Axemen get promoted to Champions before the three civs in the game got any. It also seemed to be early in the Epic speed game.

3. Then, I got a real shock when I saw barb Berserker wander into my territory. I though, hmmm, another lair/dungeon nasty? But, no, then came a second, later a third and so forth. The barb AI was spawning Tier IV units long before the civs in the game. Again, I was ahead of the Archos and Scions in tech and I was just getting Rangers with Iron Working/Champions up next. The AI is spawning Berserkers.

Then, you still have the issue of the main barb force arriving too soon in slower speed games.

Please don't take these as complaints or whining about the barbs. I am just pointing out what I think are problems, maybe bugs with the barb AI in FF.

Yes, there are always ways of dealing with this, and if the intent is there to make the barbs more difficult to deal with, fine. But, I have a feeling that changes to a particular part of the code to address something may have thrown other things off - but what do I know? I'm a player, not a developer!:D

Wow....that is pretty nasty...:scared: worst i've had is riders and axemen, thought those were a pain but sheesh...

We haven't touched any of the code involving Barb tech progression. When I looked at it earlier today though I did notice that the Barbarians are able to research, and they get a research BONUS based on what technologies other players already know. Previously I had been of the impression that they were just automatically granted various technologies when certain landmarks were hit (like when the era changes).


So in a game where the Barbarian attack prevents any civ from doing any decent research, the barbarians themselves are doing research just fine, and can thus manage to get a technology lead.

As I said, there is nothing new about having Tier III and IV barb units in a game. That happens all the time in FFH if you get deep enough into your game and there is room on your map for barbs to spawn. Frankly, when you have comparable units in dealing with them, especially when they send a bunch your way, it is fine. I especially like capturing barb Tier IV units to exploit the National limit of 4. ;)

However, I think the problem in FF is WHEN these units are built/upgraded/spawned. I'm sorry, but I just don't see a ragtag group of barbs exceeded the other players in Research and beating them to the stronger units. In FFH I'm pretty sure the way it works is if X number of civs research Iron Working and field Champions, etc. the barbs will start producing them somehow too. Same with Tier IV units.

That's not what I'm seeing in my first two games of FF .43. Again, if this is intended, to let the barbs build stronger units before the AI/Human player, that's fine. However, it might be a balance issue when you realize just how many units the barbs can produce through spawning and building.

Also, putting 30 barb units in a small city for no apparent reason to defend when they are supposed to be raging barbarians is a bug IMO.

Just wanted to add that the AI barbs started spawning Beastmasters to add to their Berserkers. It was OK though as I had Chalid and managed to capture two of them.:)

Still, the barb Tier IV units are coming before the civs remaining in the game have a chance to get to the techs necessary to produce the units themselves.

I just started my third FF .43 d game playing as Scions/Risen Emperor.

Again, I have to say that the AI for raging barbs is broken.

The main barb force came again on Turn 49 (epic speed). I expected that, but it ended the games exploration phase for awhile.

However, what I did NOT expect was for the AI to start spamming Archers (not the Goblin ones) on Turn 100. I am certain no one was able to research Archery yet - someone may have been lucky with a goody hut, but that is doubtful as the exploration phase of the game is so short.

Anyway, the point is that FF has a definite difference from FFH in that in FFH the AI will not spawn/build units more advanced than those AI civs and the human player are producing.

It is especially tough with the Archers as they mostly fortify in the tile next to your city and just bombard. If is very hard to take them out with Centenis and the unit that begins with a V.

Again, no problem if for some reason the developers saw it necessary to ramp up the barb AI. I am able to deal with it OK, but AI civs are dropping like crazy. I am clearly destined for either a short Conquest Victory or a long drawn-out affair with the barbs as there is at least one Barbarian trait civ in the game.

To summarize the two main problems with raging barbs in FF .43:

1. The main barb force arrives far too early in slower speed games.

2. The AI is spawning/building stronger units much sooner than the AI civs and human player can.

This is the kind of thing I have been seeing since Turn 100 in my epic speed game. Not only is the AI batch spawning Archers, but most are coming with two promotions (usually the hill defense one) as well.

Again, this is only Monarch difficulty. I wonder what the heavy hitters who play FF raging barb games on tougher difficulties are seeing.

I just started my third FF .43 d game playing as Scions/Risen Emperor.

Again, I have to say that the AI for raging barbs is broken.

The main barb force came again on Turn 49 (epic speed). I expected that, but it ended the games exploration phase for awhile.

However, what I did NOT expect was for the AI to start spamming Archers (not the Goblin ones) on Turn 100. I am certain no one was able to research Archery yet - someone may have been lucky with a goody hut, but that is doubtful as the exploration phase of the game is so short.

Anyway, the point is that FF has a definite difference from FFH in that in FFH the AI will not spawn/build units more advanced than those AI civs and the human player are producing.

It is especially tough with the Archers as they mostly fortify in the tile next to your city and just bombard. If is very hard to take them out with Centenis and the unit that begins with a V.

Again, no problem if for some reason the developers saw it necessary to ramp up the barb AI. I am able to deal with it OK, but AI civs are dropping like crazy. I am clearly destined for either a short Conquest Victory or a long drawn-out affair with the barbs as there is at least one Barbarian trait civ in the game.

To summarize the two main problems with raging barbs in FF .43:

1. The main barb force arrives far too early in slower speed games.

2. The AI is spawning/building stronger units much sooner than the AI civs and human player can.

I just wanted to add that this resembles what I am experiencing, but I play on Noble still. 8 AI + me... down to just me with 2-3 Units with 150+ xp per city in 3 cities and the 1 AI with Barb trait, and the barbs have settles so much of the world there is no where for him to expand too.

I just wanted to add that this resembles what I am experiencing, but I play on Noble still. 8 AI + me... down to just me with 2-3 Units with 150+ xp per city in 3 cities and the 1 AI with Barb trait, and the barbs have settles so much of the world there is no where for him to expand too.

Yep, that's what you get in the FF raging barb games now.

Maybe it is the map size/type (which are you using?), but there is definitely something broken when it comes to using the raging barb option in FF. I don't think it has anything to do with the Barbarian Worlds option either.

Two things need tweaking:

1. When the main force of barbs arrive. Kael has them arrive when the civs average 1.5 cities. This is reasonable, not Turn 49 in an epic speed game. No exploration after that and AI civs are wiped out too fast.

2. More powerful barb units than the AI civs or human player can build are spawning/being built. Again, it makes it more tough on the AI civs which are mowed down in short order. It's nonsense to think the barbs could out-tech the other players - well, most of them anyway.

Honestly, you can still have a fun game with raging barbs. It is more of a challenge for the human player, though, and can get a bit monotonous as your game will be reduced to you and just a few other civs and tons of barbs, mostly settled in cities, as Breez said.

I was playing 1 step down from biggest Erbus map -10% mountains, Raging Barbs (my next game I won't to see the difference), I did NOT play barb world, on speed not the slowest but the next one up (I forget which is Epic and which is marathon), with no wrap around. Noble.

On an interseting sidenote... my 1st time playing the Erbus map. I got an unside down U shape with a small sea in the center on the U. I started at the north edge of the Sea and only ever built 3 cities myself. Took the rest from barbs. Eventually, I got enough to see there were only 3 passes thru the mountains (to my east) spliting the East side of the world from the West. By this time ALL the civs in the east were dead, and I had myselfin the north, the barb ally civ, and the Sicons in the west. I found that once I blocked all 3 passes (Archer, hunter, and 2 priests in each) ALL flow of barbs from that 1/2 the maps Stopped. I went from 6-8 barbs per turn flowing thru these passes to 2 wolf riders attacking my border force in 200 turns.

However they are now shipping units on 2 tiremes, 1 unit ever 3 turns gets dropped right next to my closest costal city.

*eidt: I am playing Patch A still untill my friend and I finish our multiplayer game. Also I am not conplaining by any means, I knew what I was getting into when I selected Raging Barbs. I am just filling in what I am seeing.

Personally I would love to see the barbs split up into a few different "tribes" as mentioned in anther thread so each tribe could target a different player instead of all on 1. Would help the AI survie I would think.

That's very interesting about them using ships to transport units around your blockade to your city. I never saw that before, but I use a map with very little water.

Yes, the key, if you can do it, is to seal off your civ using mountain peaks, small bodies of water, and units (I often use captured elephants) to stop the barbs from pounding you.

However, I've found that in games when I can do this instead of the expected happening (the barbs go on to someone else) the unexpected occurs (the barbs disappear or just defend their many cities). If you open up the blockade, they likely return.

Of course, you also get the occasional mounted barb unit attacking, but you seldom see a small stack of barb units trying to break your blockade by killing a single defender - 2 Lizardmen would easily bring down an Elephant defender opening up your blockade.

While it does annoy me (massively) to read so much feedback all focused on the Barbarians (who we have only barely touched so far) instead of our numerous working features (most of which we did add, some of which appeared on their own), I want to pipe in for people to make this thread as busy as they can. Soon here I will be rewritting quite a bit about how Barbarians are handled, so all of the information you can spill about how they work and how you think they SHOULD work is valuable.


Note however, that much of how you might want them to work is realistically impossible from the code perspective. But that doesn't mean it is ACTUALLY impossible, it just means that every gripe brought up won't neccessarily be addressed ;)

Note however, that much of how you might want them to work is realistically impossible from the code perspective.

A computer game designer I'm acquainted with used to annoy me by refusing to make a distinction between "impossible" and "impractical". Over the years, though, I've come to see his point as far as coding goes. The general meaning of "Impossible" doesn't have much value - too little is truly impossible - but an emphatic form of "Impractical" *is* handy to have around.

OTOH, if he'd just said "realistically impossible" in the first place...

Soon here I will be rewritting quite a bit about how Barbarians are handled, so all of the information you can spill about how they work and how you think they SHOULD work is valuable.



A few suggestionsm, maybe some already apply:

I think there should be a distance cut out, so barbarians pick a target within a set distance.

Barbarians should have some concept of how easy a city is, and pick the weakest defended ones.

If the chance of taking all cities is below a certain threshold, they should concentrate on pillaging instead.

Have a barbarian unit with Bombard ability. Giants or something.

instead of our numerous working features (most of which we did add, some of which appeared on their own)

I would love too, but just commented on the thread started already.

I think so much feedback on Barbs for 2 reasons...

1. They are a large change over previous versions. So many games they are THE number one opponent.
2. They are common issue across all maps, races, and difficulty levels. IE they are in EVERYONE'S game.

However I would love to feedback on a different topic, I really haven't played much and usually just try a new race out. Help me pick one you need feedback on and I will do it. I need to start a new game tomorrow anyway... :)

While it does annoy me (massively) to read so much feedback all focused on the Barbarians (who we have only barely touched so far) instead of our numerous working features (most of which we did add, some of which appeared on their own), I want to pipe in for people to make this thread as busy as they can. Soon here I will be rewritting quite a bit about how Barbarians are handled, so all of the information you can spill about how they work and how you think they SHOULD work is valuable.


Note however, that much of how you might want them to work is realistically impossible from the code perspective. But that doesn't mean it is ACTUALLY impossible, it just means that every gripe brought up won't neccessarily be addressed ;)


Fair enough, xienwolf. However, the main point I am making (you couldn't have missed it) is that in these two areas (barbs coming too soon and barbs ahead of AI civs/human player with stronger units) there is a significant difference with FFH. Now, I realize FF is not FFH and vice versa. However, when one has it right and one has it wrong IMHO, why not just defer to the other?

As to a lot of feedback on Barbarians, I'm not sure what you mean? You don't think you are getting feedback in other areas? This is just one thread in the forum which focuses on one issue - Barbarians. There are others.

Do you really want a bunch of attaboys telling you how great the working features are? OK, this is a truly fun and interesting modmod and I love all the numerous working features. Is that really helpful feedback? Trust me, everyone here realizes the hard work the developers are putting in with this modmod and it is greatly appreciated. You know no one is complaining or . .. .. .. .. .in' here - we are just suggesting. ;)

You will continue to get feedback on how the barbs are working - don't worry about that. I am a real dunderhead when it comes to knowing what is codable or not, so if it cannot be done or is too much a pain in the ass, just say so. Issued closed.

I think the problem some have, including me, in this forum and the FFH main forum is that often a bug/suggestion/question is raised and totally ignored. No one knows if it can be done or not or if you are simply being ignored. No one expects a job number assigned to each bug brought up with daily progress reports, but I'm just saying it is a little discouraging to take the time to report something and then ... nothing.

And, now I'd like to give you a little feedback about Diplomacy in FF....;)

Xienwolf, I have almost never commented on the FF devs features, but my opinion on the barb factor is:

SUCK IT UP.

Thanks for the cool mod mod.

Whoa, first time I have ever had a post censored here. Didn't know the word I used was out of bounds.

I should have just said complaining instead of the b-word.

Apologies.

TSK TSK. Remain civil, remember the game's name.

Aye, they are valid concerns, and it is making me focus on a section of the code which I am finding is VERY lacking in quality. But it isn't as simple as "defer to how FfH did it" in this case, which is where the nuisance comes in :)

What is happening is a cascade effect. We modified something which has caused the Barbarian presence to hurt more (I'm not entirely sure what it was, but hopefully it gets sorted out shortly). This slows down player research. The reduced player research brings it down to a level which should be impossible to survive with, which happens to mean LOWER than that of the Barbarians (because they do research, much like any other Civilization does, but get a bonus to their research rate if other civilizations already know the technology).

In a normal game (barbarians are not able to hold cities long, players are racing to technologies), Barbarian advancement is almost a standstill. But when the Barbarians are able to not just hold a city or 2, but control half the world or more... They can become the tech leader because there exists no reverse mechanic (Barbarians are not prevented from being the first to discover any technology)

As stated, this is something I would never have paid any attention to, because the important key is where the Barbarians are NOT mentioned, which you don't see unless you are looking specifically to have them get special treatment. So unless you are studying Barbarian behavior, the code in this area looks flawless and wouldn't be deemed worth adjusting. So it is great that you bring it up, but the crowd-pleaser in me cringes to hear the same issue brought up 20 times with the assumption that it is something we have done wrong and can easily undo ;)


Anyway, come christmas break I am hoping that the Barbarians take a remarkable turn for the different (and more fun/balanced/tolerable)

Sarisin, why are you so attached to the raging barbs option anyway?

If you have to turn it off, but get a satisfactory barb experience with the normal barbs setting, I think you should just leave raging off instead of trying to "fix" it and ruining it for the people who do like it how it is.

Sarisin, why are you so attached to the raging barbs option anyway?

If you have to turn it off, but get a satisfactory barb experience with the normal barbs setting, I think you should just leave raging off instead of trying to "fix" it and ruining it for the people who do like it how it is.



hahaha, you're right. I am tired of being the voice in the wilderness and will back off.

Honestly, I DID stop playing raging barb games in FFH because of the whole targeting thing. That's why when I came back to FF I thought .43 would have the raging barb targeting thing different. Well, it did - no more being the Chosen One pounded relentlessly by the barbs while other civs expanded untouched long periods of the game.

However, there were those other two things...

The funny thing is I haven't read many comments from those 'liking it as it now is' or agreeing with me, so I'm guessing not many use the raging barb option in FF. Or they may use different game settings than I do.

Regardless, I do solemnly swear to not play raging barb games anymore and not post in this thread. ;)

I actually haven't seen many posts in favor of how the Barbarians are trashing people, so I would hope that if anyone does like it, these kind of threads would eventually drag out the comments from people who like how things are running. Only one such comment, so I suppose when change comes it'll be well taken.

Feedback on NON-Raging Barbarians are still quite welcome (well, even on raging ones, but most of it is like telling someone with a box of bandaids that it really sucks how your arm was just chopped off. They are a tad more likely to show sympathy to the guy on your left who has a papercut)

Thank the lord. I love raging barbarians, leave it alone.

I'll use ragin barbs when playing sidar, otherwise I turn them off. They can get pretty fiesty anyways.

I always play with raging barbarians, and barbarian world enabled. Usually at Monarch level.

Other notable variables are Huge Erebus map, Final Five, and every other civ active at the start. For Fall Further, this means 27 civs to begin with, so the barbarians are sometimes rather squeezed. However, depending on starting locations, and Final Five dropouts along the way, they can still be a presence a couple hundred turns into a normally paced game.

Both in vanilla FfH, as well as FF, I wouldn't want any major changes to the barbarian activity based on what other people are having problems with, due to their own particular option choices. On the flip side of that coin, I can understand why they might feel that they are a problem, if their options and playstyles make them a problem.