Fiction: In a Bright Land (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=335081) - link to Lore forum.

Gaining Population

The greatest difference between the Scions and the other civs is how the Scions use population, and how they gain it.
As a Fallow civilization the Scions don't need to allocate any of a city's population to gathering food. This means that, given the same population as another civ, Scion cities are far more productive. However, as a Fallow civilization the Scions cannot gain population via food and normal growth. Instead they must lure Awakened from the Bottomless Tomb, create Reborn, or capture cities.

Awakened:

Citizens of long-departed Patria, the Age of Magic's greatest empire, are the the core population of the Scions of Patria. They have been given the Gift, but they still must be brought out of the Bottomless Tomb. Awakened may be "built" in the capital. Structures much like bridges are extended into the Tomb and used to find and ferry the honored dead back into the world. But they are very expensive and inevitably temporary. After a short time they become animate and unalive, like everything in the Tomb, and may no longer be used. Awakened gained this way are expensive. But they honored dead are hard to predict - you'll often be forced to go in after them.

The easiest way for the Scions to get population is for an Awakened just walk out of the capital's Bottomless Tomb of it's own free will. But while the Tomb is bottomless an endless army of Awakened won't be coming: They have their own alien amusements there. The longer they stay the less willing they are to leave.

The frequency with which Awakened emerge is displayed near the mana bar and can be increased by the player's actions. Building Shrines to Kylorin, Imperial Cenotaphs or Temples of the Gift, Halls of the Covenant, or the Flesh Studio all attract Awakened. Most luxuries will help lure Awakened. Of special note is the "Patrian Artifacts" resource. Only the Scions player can see these resources, and unlike the other luxuries each resource owned increases the odds. The larger, more bustling the Capital the more will Awakened are to emerge. And when society is explicitly run for the benefit of the Awakened, "Aristocracy", Awakened are more likely to come forth.

Reborn:
Reborn are formerly living inhabitants of Erebus granted the Gift and transformed into undead Scions. There are four ways to gain Reborn. First, Reborn can be created from combat with a priest of the Gift - A Legate, a Doomsayer, or a Doomgiver. The enemy unit is persuaded that unlife among the Scions is preferable to their present meager existence. Second, Reborn can be "built" in a city containing a Cathedral of Rebirth. Third, Pelemoc Goldtongue may persaude the citizens of other civilzations to join Patria Reborn. Fourth, once the Scions have Sorcery and Priesthood a razed city will yield a few Reborn.

Finally, the Dark Council generates three Reborn the turn it is established.

Capturing cities:
Of course anyone can do this. All you need is a bunch of guys with swords. However, the lifestyles of other civs isn't very compatible with the unlifestyle of the Scions. When a city changes hands to or from the Scions most of the population is lost. This reduction isn't as great if the Scions are using the "God King" civic.

Details on Awakened Spawning:
The formula determining the odds an Awakened appear each turn isn't complicated, but it is rather long.

The base chance for a Standard-sized world is:
Quick: ~9%
Normal: ~6%
Epic: ~3.5%
Marathon: ~3%

World Size adjustment:
"Population limit" / 40
That limit is 20 for a Duel sized world and goes up to 70 for a Huge world.
The world size also sets a cap on Awakened generation: It ranges from 20 for a Duel world to 70 for a Huge one.

Additive factors:
Capital population / 4
Total buildings:
Gift Temples or Cenotaphs * 1
Halls of the Covenant * 2
Shrines to Kylorin / 2

Resources:
The number of Patrian Artifacts available * 0.75
Then +1 each for having any:
Silk, Gold, Gems, Ivory, Dye, Cotton.

Multipliers:
Civic: Aristocracy? Then * 1.4

Game speed - the numbers are linked to game-speed production adjustments. Divide by...
Quick: 0.5
Normal: 0.75
Epic: 1.125
Marathon: 1.5

Game turn. Every turn it's a little harder by...
Quick: 0.5%
Normal: 0.25%
Epic: 0.165%
Marathon: 0.125%

Ai mod:
The AI gets a 20% bonus.

Difficulty:
At Settler there's a 50% bonus. That scales down to a 30% penalty at Deity. These figures are reversed for the AI - if YOU are at Deity an AI Scion will get a 50% bonus.


The Haunted Lands

The Haunted Lands

It is the nature of the world that everything is itself. This may seem a truism, but it does not hold in the Haunted Lands. The Haunted Lands join everything together, in the Haunted Lands things *blur*. Notably the line between death and life. There life, of a sort, is found in death and death, of a sort, is found in life.

Eating anything grown within the Haunted Lands is very difficult. The grain may scream when harvested and make bread that crumbles into something like bone meal when baked. Its beer could taste and smell of nightmares. Cattle tend to be stillborn, which makes it all the more disturbing as the herds continue to grow.

Nevertheless there is much wealth to be found in the Haunted Lands for the brave of heart and strong of stomach. Examples: A tree with branches that when aged and dried taste of nectar and honey, after being killed and cooked, of course. A stream lined with trainable, watchful stones. A pit full of knowledgeable darkness.

Use Haunted Lands to defend Patria Reborn or spoil the territories of your enemies. The Haunted Lands are not well suited to the living. The eldritch powers of the Haunted Lands often frighten, attack, or drive the living to various forms of insanity.

The Undead have a natural affinity to the Haunted Lands. Their senses are sharpened, their arms strong. The Haunted Lands are also a source of many wonders... often grotesque or terrible. The useful ones can be kept or traded so others may appreciate the Gift. The useless ones - and there are many - can be a burden to any nearby living land. The Haunted Lands will foster Unhealth in nearby cities.

Perhaps most disturbing, at least to those who haven't accepted the Emperor's Gift, is that those bearing wounds in the Haunted Lands do not always heal true. The substance of the Haunted Lands, or the lack thereof, enters their flesh. They become undead. Some carry on afterward, cleaving to their old gods and loyalties. Some go strange, eventually raising their hand - or whatever's left - against all others.

Ghostwalkers can undergo a different transformation with the Haunted Lands. They share out part of their own substance and humanity to the surrounding terrain, drinking from even more of the territory's inhuman nature. They become Haunts. Insubstantial, but hardly less terrible for that. Whip-fast, hard to see until it's right on top of you, a Haunt's airy frame can't take your head off, but this is hardly a comfort when it roars through your army and sinks it's claws into your skull.

Mending Nature

Three Scion units create Haunted Lands.

Ghostwalkers - With "Necromancy" a Ghostwalker may spend six turns creating a Haunted Lands tile.

Reaching Creepers - Young, Mature or Blooming Creepers may, after surviving a combat and fed on living blood, create a Haunted Lands tile.

Redactors - As soon as they're available Redactors can create Haunted Lands. They transform not only their own tile, but those around them as well. The life within a forest or jungle may hold out for a time, but will succumb eventually. Redactors may give the Gift to any living units you possess, except for the Red Lady. However, the Scion's cavalry mounts may be made Undead. Such mounts are terrible to face in battle.

Finally, the mere existence of Ghostwalkers, Haunts, Redactors and the Black Lady allow Haunted Lands to spontaneously wrest themselves from non-existence. The more life, the more likely the transformation: Wooded areas are the most likely to change, Deserts the least. Haunts exert more influence than Ghostwalkers, and Redactors more than Haunts. The Black Lady doubles the odds of Haunted Lands appearing in this manner.


The Dark Council

The High Councilors

Patria was blessed with many men and women of enormous accomplishment. Patria Rebon shares in that blessing and the Age of Magic's greatest Princes and Poets, Warriors and Merchants, daily walk its streets. The Emperor has appointed four such persons special roles in the Age of Rebirth. Not just undead but unconquerable, if destroyed they always pay heed to the Emperor's call and re-emerge from the great Tomb. Each has his or her special role, and together they lead the Scions Dark Council.

Alcinus - The Mad Thaumaturge: Emerges from the Tomb with Knowledge of the Ether. He founds the essential Thaumaturge's Keep in any city outside the capital (the Apparat refuses to allow it near the Palace) and plays an important part in the Empire's Rituals. Subject to periodic bouts of violent madness, the great mage occasionally turns against his own people. At that point there is nothing that may be done but running him down. A new death returns him to the Emperor. Though even that's not certain. Should he go rogue and join a rival civilization the Scions specially trained wizard-hunters - the Emperor's Daggers - will seek him out.

Themoch, the Silent Watcher - Unseen but far from sightless, as patient as the grave, at "Tracking" Themoch rides forth, the perfect sentry and spy.

Pelemoc Goldtongue - He appears most often as a well-off merchant, but will appear in other guises if they serve his need. Pelemoc is no mage, but he bends minds and scatters armies with his mastery of money, with his silver-tongue.

Melante, the Artful Governor - Head of the Dark Council, Melante is knows as much of the ways of men as Pelemoc, and is just as deft with words. But where he persuades, she rules. Any city with Melante as it's governor will be markedly more productive.

The Dark Council

Once all four leading Councilors are together in a city outside the capital Melante may found the Dark Council, casting the Scions of Patria World Spell. The Dark Council world-wonder is created. The Dark Council grants three Reborn, and it's ongoing activities foster both trade in Scions cities and discontent among their enemies.


More on the Thaumaturge's Keep

You always get the main Keep building, and it's always the same.

Random Building 1: Always a mana building. They'll have slightly different stats. It'll be Force, Entropy, Shadow, Chaos, Body, Mind, Enchantment, Metamagic, or one of the elements.

Random Building 2: As above, but 3 more possibilities: Alcinus' Trove (2 PA resources) or the Schola Furo (extra xps for Adepts).

Random Building 3: 50% nothing, 25% Alchemist's tower, 25% Military Abattoir.

Random Building 4: 50% nothing, 25% Noxious Smell, 25% Corrosive Spills



Leaders, Units, Buildings, Heroes:

Leaders
Units
Buildings
Heroes



Buildings:

Buildings the Scions don't build:

Grove
Tower of Complacency

Tower of Necromancy: Only effects Bone Horde, Skeletons, and Diseased Corpses.


Scions-only buildings:
Cathedral of Rebirth

The Cathedral of Rebirth celebrates the glory of both the Emperor and the people. The Cathedrals tie the empire together with self-veneration. It is in the Cathedrals that the chosen of the new age's people are ceremoniously made into true Scions of Patria.

Requires Religious Law and four Halls of the Covenant. Allows creation of Reborn in city. -20% war weariness. +5 culture, +1 TR, +10% defense, +3 happiness with Life mana, +2 xp for Disciple units built in city. Units built in city get Homeland promotion.

Dark Council

The Parliament of Merchants and Citizens, aka “The Dark Council,” is primarily an instrument for maintaining the wealth and power of Patria Reborn's merchant princes. An advisory council and financial clearing house, it's also a clearing house for information about powerful individuals, both Scions and those from outside the Empire. The Imperial Cult makes good use of this information.

+2 Culture, +10% gold, 1 free Merchant. +1 trade route per city, +10% to trade routes. -10% Scions war weariness. +15% to enemy war weariness.


Emperor's Mark - Free in all cities founded by the Risen Emperor. +2 culture

Exchange

An Exchange allows the Scions of Patria to sell their land's unused foodstuffs to the world.

Allows the Scions to sell off the unused foodstuffs of their territory. Requires Mercantilism and 4 Markets. +2 gold, +1 trade route in every city, +30% to trade routes in this city.

Flesh Studio

At the capital's Flesh Studio adepts mold flesh like clay, or work it like metal, or weave it like silk. Most citizens apply to the Flesh Studio for an improved appearance, but soldiers quickly and easily become terrifying. Vanity and health combine to make the Flesh Studio a powerful lure for the Awakened.

Each Body Mana increases the chance an Awakened will appear. Requires Body Mana and Alteration. May only be built in the capital. +2 Happiness, +50% heal rate, +10% military production, +4 Culture.

Hall of the Covenant

Various entertainments celebrating the Emperor and the Gift, including plays, are performed here. Where the Temple of the Gift is often the main link to the capital, a Hall of the Covenant is often the center of a city's secular life.
Awakened are part of the Covenant. A Hall increases the likelihood that an Awakened will emerge from the Bottomless Tomb.

Replaces Theatre. Somewhat more expensive, allows for 2 Bards rather than 1. Increases Awakened spawn rate. Required for Martyrs of Patria.

Imperial Cenotaph

Containing a relic of the Sleeping Emperor, all Patrians can feel the movements of his thought here. It is said no true Patrian may lie or think a disloyal thought near the Cenotaph.
The Awakened honor the Sleeping Emperor. A Cenotaph increases the likelihood that an Awakened will leave the Bottomless Tomb.

Requires Code of Laws. Increases Awakened spawn rate. +2 culture, +10% culture, -10% maintenance, -15 crime.

Kylorin Cult

A center for the worship of Kylorin as the supreme Archmage and savior of human kind. Frowned on by the Emperor's Cult because it shifts veneration away from the Risen Emperor. Frowned on by the Church of the Gift for undermining the Doomsayer's authority. Frowned on by the local authorities because mage-wannabees tend toward spontaneously bursting into unquenchable flame.

Replaces Pagan Temple. +5 Crime, happiness from Reagents rather than Incense.

Necropolis

All citizens of Patria Reborn possess the Gift of Life-in-Death, but each city has populations of living people as well. These immigrants labor for the good of the Scions. The most worthy never truly die, but will instead receive the flesh imperishable.
With Sorcery the Scions have regained sufficient knowledge to give the Gift to others. And not just a chosen few, but on a massive scale. All long-term citizens will now gradually join the ranks of the undead. Whether they want to or not. Energy from all living things in the region is funneled into the city's Mages Guilds and workshops and put to good use.

-10 crime, -25% GP rate, No unhealth from Pop, +10 Health, +3 culture, +3 hammers per Death Mana (won't show up in description, the hammers do show up in the que), +3 xps for Adept units. Cancels out the happiness from wine.

Patrian Bazaar

Collected here are the various fantastic artifacts produced or found on Patrian digs... or in the haunted lands.

Replaces Moneychanger. +15% gold, +1 TR, +100% foreign TR. +3 Culture.

Shrine to Kylorin

Shrine honoring the great god-crossed and god-slaying hero of Patria.

Replaces Obelisk, slightly cheaper. +3 Culture.

Spirit Mill

While they take no food or drink the Scions do have one vice of consumption. Those with the Gift may enjoy a pseudo-substance wrung from the life-essences found in certain tissues, then distilled and stored in well-cooled jars.

Replaces Brewery, more expensive. +1 happiness from Cow, Pig, Sheep, Deer.

Temple of the Gift

The Gift is the gift of unlife that Scions receive from their Emperor. The Scions do not worship death. Rather the Temples host a fiercely nationalistic faith worshiping the Emperor and the proud history of Patria. The Legates tell and re-tell the story of their history: Glory, then betrayal by the gods and their thuggish angels. The long cold, the long fitful sleep... and now the Gift and rebirth.
A Temple of the Gift increases the likelihood that an Awakened will leave the Bottomless Tomb.

Requires Code of Laws. +2 culture, +20 % culture. 5% defense. +1 happiness from Incense, Silk. Required for all the Scion religious units. May only be built by the Risen Emperor.

Vacant Mausoleum

"The Emperor's will is manifest, but let him Rise!"
"Unmake the wards, crack the seals and let him Rise!"
"His people beseech, faithful Alexi calls, and Erebus awaits!"
"Let the Sleeping Emperor rise!"

Requires Arcane Lore. Can only be built by Alexi, and only in the Scion's capital. +5 culture, -20% war weariness in all cities, +1 population in all cities. Required for the Risen Emperor.

Units:

Units the Scions don't build:
Cannon
Settler (they still have the initial settler)


Magic:

Scions units cannot cast Haste, Regeneration or Flesh Golem. However, the Scions have access to Draw Strength, Death Geas and Grand Ward.

Scions-only units:

Abomination

"What you see is the essence of divinity unmasked. We will make use of the gods power, but do not be fooled by it for an instant." - Redactor Caestate


Replaces Immortal. Lacks the Immortal ability, but starts with Fear, Cannibalize, Implacable and Magic Immune.

Awakened

Former inhabitants of the Bottomless Tomb, the Awakened issue forth at their own pleasure.
Use to found new cities, or add to an existing city's population.
The Gift is eternal as the Emperor's glory, but even the pull of his call when the Tomb opened cannot reverberate forever in the Tomb's infinite darkness. The passing of each day means that more of the Awakened dead of Patria fall back into slumber. However, increased industry and devotion in Patria Reborn can coax the honored dead from their rest. As can the availability of favored luxuries in the cities. Furthermore God King, a populous capital, and every Shrine to Kylorin, Temple of the Gift, Imperial Cenotaph, Hall of the Covenant, or source of Patrian artifacts serves to strengthen the Emperor's Will and call more of our people back to the world.
Alternatively a series of bridges into the Tomb may be used to retrive some of the Awakened. Such structures are expensive, however, and the inevitable animation of each as it accepts the Gift means each can be used only for a short time.

Adds population to a city, or founds a new city.

Bone Horde

"Take that cart of powder and open the western catacombs to the sky. The mages will do the rest."

Replaces Arquebus. Cheaper, but much weaker when attacking.

Cetratus

The Scions prefer skirmishers to hunters.

Replaces Hunter. Only move 1, cannot carry birds, but has first strikes and Skirmisher.

Doomgiver

The most obvious symbol of his power, a Doomgiver's Seeing Sword has grown. Its eye fully open, it blade well fanged.
A Doomgiver manipulates fate almost contemptuously. Their most vulnerable foes will find themselves seeking shelter where the Doomgiver already waits. A Doomgiver can shatter the destiny of an entire city, or make it a place that angel's envy.


A high priest of the Scions. Reduces city population when attacking, starts with Sentry II and Marksman Can create Reborn in combat.

Doomsayer

Priests of either the Emperor's Cult or Patria's Destiny. Doomsayers feed their Seeing Swords with lives. With the army, spreading word of the Emperor's Promise to outlanders. Or with reverence, in the Scion's cities.
The Scion's worship revolves around reverence for the Patrian culture, Patrian history, and the Scions' divine destiny. Doomsayers hold that this destiny is immutable and borrow its power to alter the lines of fate. They possess few obvious magics, but to oppose a Doomsayer is to find the very weft and warp of the world turn against you.

A priest of the Scions. Has the spell "Weird Wrack," Sentry. Can create Reborn in combat. Doomsayers use great quantities of Incense and are more expensive to build without it.

Ghostwalker

Sometimes a Cetratus or Velite will abandon his unit, and sometimes a Ghostwalker returns.

Replaces Ranger. Lower combat strength but several first strikes, -1 to terrain move costs. Can create “Haunted Lands” and temporarily transform into a Haunt. Haunted Lands lower health but increase commerce. Wounded living units risk becoming undead when in the Haunted Lands. Ghostwalkers create a Reaching Creeper when they create Haunted Lands, or when they die. With Feral Bond they can feed Reaching Creepers some of their blood. This allows the Creeper to quickly establish a Haunted Land – even within enemy territory.

Horned Dread.

An incarnation of the Haunted Lands, the Horned Dread is a powerful fighter so strange and terrifying that Courage is forgotten.

Replaces Beastmaster. Once present the Horned Dread manifest through any Ghostwalker, anywhere on the map, but only one at a time. And only a Ghostwalker of the 6th level or above may first manifest the Horned Dread. If all Ghostwalkers are destroyed another high-level Ghostwalker must again "first" manifest the Horned Dread. About as powerful as a Beastmaster, but its spell "Terrify" can make temporarily make most units incapable of attack.

Honored Band

"Your captain holds your eyes, you just hold your line!"
The Awakened are still vulnerable to blows to the head, and to a certain extent damage to the vitals. Members of the Honored Band have submitted to the removal of these things for the greater glory of Patria Reborn. The Honored Band will be glad to sacrifice everything remaining at the Emperor's command.

After the body has been destroyed by the enemy a Band member's head and viscera are sealed into a jar of Emperor's Blessing from the Imperial Spirit Mill. Inside the jar an eternity of drugged rapture may be enjoyed.

Recruits to the Band expect a sizable enlistment bonus - a gold ingot "receipt" for their removed head and organs.

Replaces Axeman. Lower attack but higher defense, at its best in open terrain. Has “Headless” and the "Emperor and Honor!" ability. Require +1 gold/turn maintenance. More expensive without Gold.

Legate

"Kill them all, we will take our own."

A disciple of the Scions. Can recruit Reborn in combat.

Martyrs of Patria

Fanatics who worship the Risen Emperor as their personal god. They exist only to carry their own deaths to the Emperor's enemies.

Replaces Assassin. Requires God King civic. Limit of 6, they're cheap but are often destroyed in combat even after winning. Suicide troops. With “Poisons” the Martyrs are built with the promotion “Poison Drenched.” A level 6 Martyr may be upgraded to an "Emperor's Dagger." Daggers are specially trained in killing mages, tracking Alcinus, and sworn to put off destruction in battle until the Emperor gives explicit permission.

Necromancer

Necromancers have learned the trick of drawing on the death of their foes for strength. So, armed with swords rather than wands, they seek strength.

Replaces Mage. Does extra death damage in combat. After making a kill may cast "Balefire."

Principes

A wall of iron and death standing between Patria Reborn and the barbarian peoples.
Principes require the best of everything - prizing especially fine clothes and bejeweled weapons, armor, and other accouterments.

Replaces Champion. At its best in open terrain. Costs +1 gold/turn maintenance. More expensive without Gems, Dye.

Reborn

Priests not of the Patrian church but of the Gift itself. The Redactors do not worship death. They worship the sublime merger of being and void that animates the Scions. They whisper this secret to the winds, and the winds bow. Where the winds bow the land changes. Animals become scarce and strange, the trees lay down their arms. In the earth a thousand eyes open wide, and from the sky a thousand mouths open and whisper back the secret.

Like Awakened, but created in Cathedrals of Rebirth or recruited by Legates or priests. Luxuries will reduce the cost to create Reborn at Cathedrals of Rebirth, especially under "God King."

Redactor

Replaces Druid. Death rather than Nature magic. Quickly spreads the Haunted Lands, and may grant the Gift to many Scions units – not just the living - that aren't undead.

Revenant

Bone and magic woven together with the most powerful weirds laid by priests of the national cult. Those killed near them are doomed to rise again and fight for the Scions of Patria.

Scion crusader unit.

Praetorian

Warrior-Priests of the Emperor's Cult. They guard the most important cities or Scion leaders.

Replaces Royal Guard. Requires God King civic. Best in open terrain. Costs +1 gold/turn maintenance. They cost more without ready access to the silk and ivory enchanted to create their armor.

Velite

Heavily armed compared to most scouts, Velites are slower but have more bite.

Replaces Scout. Only 1 move, but has a first strike and Skirmisher.

Wraith Lord

Even more enigmatic behind their bronze masks, the Wraith Lords can each produce a vortex of necromantic force that continues to drain surviving victims long after they've run away.

Replaces Archmage. As the Necromancer is to the Mage, so is the Wraith Lord to the Archmage. Can cast "Hand of the Reaper" after combat.

Leaders:

The Risen Emperor

The lord of the Scions claims to be one of Kylorin's original students, now returned from the Underworld. He says he will reclaim Erebus for the glory of Patria. The first claim is almost certainly false. As to the second, only time will tell.

Charismatic, Arcane, Agnostic, Fallow
Alignment: Neutral, -100

Korrina the Protector

Living yet immortal guardian of the Sleeping Emperor, and by extension all the Scions.

Aggressive, Organized, Fallow
Alignment: Neutral, 100

Heroes:

Korrina:
Available as soon as the capital is founded, Korrina is bound to the Palace. She is a very strong early-game unit... though capable only of defending the capital. With Knowledge of the Ether the spells keeping her in place may be lifted. Korrina Unshackled is an Adept, especially potent on the defense.
With Hunting and Bronze Working Korrina must make a choice: At Hunting she may be given the Gift and made undead like citizenry of the Scions, becoming their Black Lady. At Bronze Working she may instead follow the way of the warrior, becoming the Red Lady and using her blades to defend Patria Reborn.

Only the Risen Emperor may have Korrina as a hero.

The Risen Emperor:

If Korrina rules it must be because the Sleeping Emperor remains locked in a separate and well-warded vault of the Bottomless Tomb. With Arcane Lore the wards may be broken and the Sleeping Emperor can Rise. The Risen Emperor has a Death mana Affinity, Implacable, and many defeated foes become Revenants under his command.

Only Korrina the Protector may have the Risen Emperor as a hero.

The Dark Council

Formerly powerful Patrians, each immortal Councilor fulfills a special purpose for the Patria Reborn.

Alcinus, the Mad Thaumaturge: Founder of the Thaumatruge's Keep, prone to crazed violence - may become a Barbarin. May join another civ when killed. (Try killing him again to get him back.)
Themoch, the Silent Watcher: Invisible, can enter rival territory, Sentry
Pelemoc Goldtongue: Can enter rival territory. A variety of city-centric spells.
Melante, the Artful Governor: Can give production, culture, and gold boosts to 1 non-capital Scion city.

Alcinus requires Knowledge of the Ether, Themoch requires Tracking, Pelemoc Currency, and Melante requires Feudalism.


Reaching Creepers

Creepers: Wounded or destroyed Ghostwalkers can create Creepers, as can Korrina the Black. Creepers are also generated within the Haunted Lands. The breeding season depends on several arcane factors and isn't entirely predictable - but it is regular and is adjusted by Game Speed.

Creeper life-cycle:

Creepers are Free units, can move in Rival territory without Open Borders, are Defensive Only, 15% withdraw, 2 strength - Poison.

Stages - Creepers vary in appearance and abilities.

Young - lasts 20 turns - No change from stats above.
Mature - 25 turns - Can cast "Arawn's Dust" spell.
Blooming - 15 turns - Defensive Strikes, can cast "Burrowing Thorns"
Rooted - 20+ turns - Can't move, Defensive Strikes more powerful, +4 strength
Dying - Rooted Creeper dies and spawns 2, sometimes 3, Young Creepers.

Any Young, Mature or Blooming Creeper that survives a combat remains sated with blood for 30 turns and may transform itself into a Haunted Lands Feature within that time.

Ah thanks Tarq, was looking all over for the things affecting awakened spawn rates ;)

Sweet, was wanting this. What prompted the Alexi-to-Korrina changes?

Sweet, was wanting this. What prompted the Alexi-to-Korrina changes?

Streamlining - Everything but the Red/Lady choice is now applied automatically

De-emphasize the arcane tech path

Balance issues, especially with regard to the Shadow-level Red Lady. - The final versions are now supposed to stay useful, but not be as powerful as a late-game hero.

The first 2 things are clear improvements IMO. As for the last, I think it'll come out that Scions players are just smarter than average and any nerfing is, in the end, pointless. :)

Sweet, was wanting this. What prompted the Alexi-to-Korrina changes?

Streamlining - Everything but the Red/Lady choice is now applied automatically

De-emphasize the arcane tech path

Balance issues, especially with regard to the Shadow-level Red Lady. - The final versions are now supposed to stay useful, but not be as powerful as a late-game hero.

The first 2 things are clear improvements IMO. As for the last, I think it'll come out that Scions players are just smarter than average and any nerfing is, in the end, pointless. :)

And the most obvious change (the name) was because I kept thinking "Alexis" and getting horribly confused (doesn't take much... :D)

Is the Red Lady not supposed to be undead? Was looking forward to promoting her to implacable only to find out I can't. :(

Is the Red Lady not supposed to be undead? Was looking forward to promoting her to implacable only to find out I can't. :(

She's living, and re-living, and re-living....

Her upgrade grants her an immortal promotion (though she has to recover for a length of time after being killed before she's considered immortal again) as she becomes a instrument of the Risen Emperor's will and whim. Basically he won't let her die whilst she's still useful to him, but she has also passed on the opportunity to embrace The Gift when she turned away from becoming "The Black Lady".

What does the Emperor and Honor ability actually do?

What does the Emperor and Honor ability actually do?

Almost the opposite of what the 'pedia says it does:

It grants a -20% to its opponent's strength for 1 combat, but the unit will be destroyed even if it wins.

EDIT: Added some pedia and Help text for the spell.

Cheers Tarquelne - can i ask another, how do i create haunted lands? i have a ghost walker but no spell?

Cheers Tarquelne - can i ask another, how do i create haunted lands? i have a ghost walker but no spell?

Do you have Necromancy? You need it, too, for the Ghostwalker version.

If you notice anything I missed please post below.


Some significant changes to spawning of awakened:
It's Aristocracy that gives a bonus to spawning, and the modifier is +66%
Korrina has a penalty.
Body mana is not mentioned with the rest of the spawn modifiers.
Capital populations is divided by 4, not 3.

Incidentally, there really should be some feedback on the effectiveness of awakened spawning. At the very least, one should know when the maximum population has been reached.

Also, Necropolis production works from health resources, not death mana.

The non-useless assassin is new as well.

Ah, makes sense then. Wasn't aware that her immortal promotion came back... Makes up for the lack of the undead goodies. Also wasn't aware that the spawn chance was moved to Aristocracy... Been running God King so far. Would really love to see a return of the spawn chance notifier, at least as an option or modmodmod. ;)

Also wasn't aware that the spawn chance was moved to Aristocracy...

Thanks! I keep forgetting to add that to the doc above.


Would really love to see a return of the spawn chance notifier, at least as an option or modmodmod. ;)

It's supposed to still be there - I've got the notifier in the same place as always.

(:confused: Is anybody else seeing the spawn chance show up in the top-center message area each turn? .)

I've got nothing... I DO have the combat log on, so that might cause some of it. Gonna test a game without it real quick, I'll let you know how it goes.

Edit: Nope, still doesn't show even with the combat log off. Maybe it got lost when the civ was merged?

Edit 2: Started a game with all options disabled and still didn't have it, so it must not be one of the game options.

So happy this made it into FF! When I use Alcinus (hilarious) to build the Thau tower the effect it has in game is completely random? Are there any things (such as what mana I have) that affects what it does? Also I read in the pedia that it provides 3 mana but I have yet to see this?

So happy this made it into FF! When I use Alcinus (hilarious) to build the Thau tower the effect it has in game is completely random? Are there any things (such as what mana I have) that affects what it does? Also I read in the pedia that it provides 3 mana but I have yet to see this?

Assuming the Thaumaturge's Keep still works the way it did in the last standalone version, it will provide up to two mana buildings, each of which will have a small effect(+culture, money, etc), and up to two of four extra buildings. Two of those have good affects, two of them are bad. There was also a chance of it providing Patrian Artifacts rather than a mana, but I've rarely seen that one.

IC IC. Thanks for the info. I love the fact it helps with passive xp increase.

Erm ...Vehmen and me thaught it is a forgotten debug message and removed it just before the release of the initial version. Maybe we should make it display somewhere else instead of showing the chance every turn as a message.

Ah... That explains that lol. A better display would be great, but just a simple message works fine... Just makes life easy when you know how your actions are affecting the spawn chance.

Wouldn't be too hard to add it to the Interface while viewing the Scions Capital (I think). Just would need to decide on precisely where and what kind of a graphic to utilize.

Thanks! I keep forgetting to add that to the doc above.



It's supposed to still be there - I've got the notifier in the same place as always.

(:confused: Is anybody else seeing the spawn chance show up in the top-center message area each turn? .)

I disabled that as it looked like a debug message. Can re-add it with a quick string to say what it actually is (people seeing a decimal number appear per turn without knowing what it was would assume it was a bug)

Are there any things (such as what mana I have) that affects what it does? Also I read in the pedia that it provides 3 mana but I have yet to see this?

Some more details:

It is indeed completely random - nothing you can do influences the selections. The "3 mana" is 3 total - initial death + 2 more. Though actually sometimes it's only 1 more, and sometimes it can give you 4 mana total, but 2 will be Death. You should never get 2 of the same building. (New feature, not exhaustively tested.) Finally, not all mana types are available. "Life" for example.

You always get the main Keep building, and it's always the same.

Random Building 1: Always a mana building. They'll have slightly different stats. It'll be Force, Entropy, Shadow, Chaos, Body, Mind, Enchantment, Ice, or one of the elements.

Random Building 2: As above, but 3 more possibilities: Alcinus' Trove (2 PA resources), the Schola Furo (extra xps for Adepts), or a Death mana building with better than usual stats that gives 2 death mana.

Random Building 3: 50% nothing, 25% Alchemist's tower, 25% Military Abattoir.

Random Building 4: 50% nothing, 25% Noxious Smell, 25% Corrosive Spills

Erm ...Vehmen and me thaught it is a forgotten debug message and removed it just before the release of the initial version.

Ack! I wonder why I still see it?! Pulled from old FF 043 directories? They're all renamed, but that's the only thing I can think of...


Maybe we should make it display somewhere else instead of showing the chance every turn as a message.

That'd be good. But the interface python files fill me with fear and loathing.

EDIT: Ok, just re-downloaded the main mod and now the message section is commented out. I must have been using the final pre-release version. ("Ack!", but a different, less-confused "Ack.")
Given that, though, if you want to put the message back in it's easy enough.

The file is CutomFunction.py in the python directory.
As of patch C the lines are 1154 - 1156. Just remove the "#" sign commenting them out.


# if pPlayer.isHuman():
# message = "%0.2f" %(iSpawnChance)
# CyInterface().addImmediateMessage(message,"")

Didn't know if this was bug or WAD (I'm guessing bug) but playing with the Scions last night - granaries, smokehouses, and herbalists were available to build. I thought that was kind of strange, but the first post in this thread implies that they shouldn't be available. I was playing with an AI teammate (same game I reported the Alcinus bug, BTW Cassiel got copies of all three super-scions) if that would make a difference.

I don't think Cassiel got any Awakened, but I'd hate to think what would have happened if he used the city-subverter's ability to turn an enemy population into a reborn...

What are the requirements for the Thau... tower? I didn't even know it could be built. Is there a Scions strategy thread anywhere? They are a bit difficult to pick up out of the gate.

- granaries, smokehouses, and herbalists were available to build. I thought that was kind of strange, but the first post in this thread implies that they shouldn't be available.

Yep - well after the "1.31" documentation was made a new mechanic was added: Scion cities with too much unhealth get hammer/happiness penalties 'cuz all the living people -servants and such - are upset. (Whiners. Necropolis will pretty much fix that, btw.)

Several of the health buildings were again made available to give the Scions so way of avoiding the penalty.


I was playing with an AI teammate (same game I reported the Alcinus bug, BTW Cassiel got copies of all three super-scions) if that would make a difference.

It would have worried me if he hadn't, because that would have meant I was wrong about the source of the bug. :)


I don't think Cassiel got any Awakened,

Good to know. (Totally separate bug if he had.)


What are the requirements for the Thau... tower? I didn't even know it could be built.

Just Knowledge of the Ehter. With that you get Alcinus, and he builds the Thaumaturge's Keep with a spell. You can put it in any city outside the capital.

Is there a Scions strategy thread anywhere? They are a bit difficult to pick up out of the gate.

Not really - the former Scions thread is here, (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=273769) in the mods forum. Given it's sheer size and the fact that it stretchs back to very early versions I doubt it'd be very helpful.

I'll be improving the documentation in the first post, though, and will include a faq/guide in addition to the categorized list that's up there now.

Hmm... Didn't know that the Emperor's Mark spell was removed. Wish I had remembered before I took out the Mazatl... Half my continent is made up of their old cities, so now I'm unable to build my legate army of doom. I can see not wanting the Emperor's Mark to be spreadable, but is there any reason to tie Legates and Revenants to both the Temple of the Gift and the Emperor's Mark? The temple is already unbuildable by Korrina, so leaving them with just that would keep her from building any while also allowing you to build the disciple units in your conquered cities.

Edit: Woot, 300th post. :D

but is there any reason to tie Legates and Revenants to both the Temple of the Gift and the Emperor's Mark?

Hmm... not really. "It makes sense" is more important than anything against it, I think. I'll remove the restriction.

Suggestions for Scions entries in the "concepts" section of the pedia?

There should be a section on Awakened spawning. Anything else?

The council members could definitely use a section explaining their abilities and the requirements to get them, all in one place, as well as the Dark Council itself.

Speaking of, what does the Corrupt Quartermaster spell actually do? I've never been able to figure that one out, and last I checked it's pedia entry is... not helpful.

Also a section on the differences between Korrina (Still used to calling her Alexi...) and the Emperor might be helpful.

Something on Haunted Lands might also be in order.

I know the Scions are your baby Tarquelne, but maybe we should think about changing the mechanism for Awaken spawning a little bit and make it non-random. Something similar to the Great People bar could work. Accumulating points until an Awakened leaves his grave. Maybe it's just my dislike for randomness, but me personally would like it to be more predictable. What do you think? Could this work?

This idea came to me after reading some comments about extreme bad luck.

EDIT: We could also add a nice tooltip windows to the bar to display all the factors affecting the current accumulation rate.

How do you get Haunted Lands? Last game i tried to find out with no luck. I agree with Awakened spawning similar to GP though, I dislike it being completely random as I may end up with far to little population.

I like the randomness of it, but an element of being predictable mixed in with the randomness might be good.

OH! Awakened spawning could use the Great General bar, since nothing else does right now. Would require completely rewriting the mechanics for that, of course. But if you went with that and then, for example, had a random value that it increased by each turn, plus a static value based on the spawn chance...

Dunno, just a random idea.

I know the Scions are your baby Tarquelne, but maybe we should think about changing the mechanism for Awaken spawning a little bit and make it non-random. Something similar to the Great People bar could work. Accumulating points until an Awakened leaves his grave. Maybe it's just my dislike for randomness, but me personally would like it to be more predictable. What do you think? Could this work?

This idea came to me after reading some comments about extreme bad luck.

EDIT: We could also add a nice tooltip windows to the bar to display all the factors affecting the current accumulation rate.

In my current multiplayer game, I got my first awakened on turn 63 (normal speed). I had to build 2 shrines and hook up 4 artifacts to my capital before it spawned. I really like the Scions, but Civ already has enough make-or-break random elements without tying your method of growth to chance.

I also noticed that a few units require God King. Should those be changed to require Aristocracy now?

How do you get Haunted Lands? Last game i tried to find out with no luck.

Ghostwalkers need Necromancy.
Creepers need Feral Bond. (It allows A Ghostwalker to feed them, and only a fed Creeper can create a HL tile.)
Redactors can do it as soon as they arrive.

I like the randomness of it, but an element of being predictable mixed in with the randomness might be good.

I like it random, too. I like wondering from turn to turn whether one will pop up, and how I'll cope if one doesn't. I enjoy a run of good luck... and also a run of bad luck. Then I prioritize Legates, look for fights, and scramble for more Luxuries, or maybe Body mana.

Some ideas if it seems more player control is needed.

1) Safety-net events triggering if your pop is too small. The Events grant some Awakened or Reborn.

2) Events that allow you to "earn" A/Rs. The simplest example of which would be....

3) You get some Awakened for achieving certain techs - maybe the techs that grant Councilors. So that'd be 4 extra Awakened by the time you get Feudalism. (I think Melante is generally the last one gained.)

4) Allow Legates to be built earlier, and/or increase the odds to "capture" a Reborn.

5) Make Pelemoc's Subversion spell cheaper.

6) Make the "small population" spawning odds boost last longer, or have a greater effect.

7) Add a whole new way to increase the spawn rate. # turns at peace? # of open borders?


I don't like the idea of having Awakened gained like GP. Much too mechanistic/predictable for my taste. As far as the Great General bar goes - I'm holding out for re-introduction of Great Generals. :)

=====
Oh yes:
Corrupt Quartermaster: Gives 1 unit in tile the "Corrupt Quartermaster" promotion. It costs the unit's owner 1 gold/turn and lasts, on average, long enough to cost them more than it cost you to cast the spell.


God King and unit requirements: Hmm... I don't think so. God King it still appropriate. The MoPs and Praetorians are both very much expressions of the Emperor-centric religion.

Agreed, I prefer it random. Makes for an occasional game with constant spawns that turn you into a power house, or the occasional game, like the one I'm on now, with just enough spawns to keep my capital up... Luckily, I started next to the Mazatl, and had Korrina the Red lead an army of Legates on them... Leaving the top half of my continent empty so I can allow the barbarian hordes to feed my Legates, generating quite a few reborn. The only issue I can really think of would be Korrina's spawning... Since she can not build Legates, those games where chance isn't in your favour can be tough. Maybe allow her a more expensive version of the Legate, but no upgrades? That way, your legates can hold you over until you get some Cathedrals built...

Randomness is our friend.

5) Make Pelemoc's Subversion spell cheaper.


Or make it not teleport Pelemoc back to the capital. The risk of war is enough to discourage spamming. Or vice versa.

He could get a spell or ability that targets the old and sick. Essentially the ones that die naturally so that there are no repercussions with the targeted civilization.
Just give it a long casting time to have a chance to create one reborn. Say 15 turns for a 25% chance. Maybe even add a little temporary happiness.

Another way to make Awakened more predictable would be to drastically increase the spawn chance, but make the maximum number spawned more restrictive and increasing.

Say that spawn chance is [10%, 25%] while total pop is lower than maxpop.

maxpop starts at some map size dependant number, add number of patrian artifacts, Kyorlin temples, cenotaphs et etcetera (the current spawn modifiers), number of techs researched * map size modifier.

Or make it not teleport Pelemoc back to the capital. The risk of war is enough to discourage spamming. Or vice versa.

He could get a spell or ability that targets the old and sick. Essentially the ones that die naturally so that there are no repercussions with the targeted civilization.
Just give it a long casting time to have a chance to create one reborn. Say 15 turns for a 25% chance. Maybe even add a little temporary happiness.

Possibly make it only available in unhealthy cities, so he culls the sick and dying, leaving a healthy city behind?

Well, people die all the time regardless. But it could certainly have bonuses in unhealthy cities.

Or make it not teleport Pelemoc back to the capital. The risk of war is enough to discourage spamming. Or vice versa.

I think that's a good idea. The other costs do seem like enough of a break. (And if the target city is close it's not much of a break anyway.) The teleportation seems more annoying than anything else.


He could get a spell or ability that targets the old and sick.
...
Just give it a long casting time to have a chance to create one reborn. Say 15 turns for a 25% chance. Maybe even add a little temporary happiness.

Possibly make it only available in unhealthy cities, so he culls the sick and dying, leaving a healthy city behind?

That's a neat idea. I'll see if I can do that...

Almost forgot:


EDIT: We could also add a nice tooltip windows to the bar to display all the factors affecting the current accumulation rate.

Awesome idea.

Hey so let me get this straight...Aristocracy now provides the multiplier to Awakened spawning instead of God King right? In the pedia Korinna's favorite civic is still God King?

Hey so let me get this straight...Aristocracy now provides the multiplier to Awakened spawning instead of God King right? In the pedia Korinna's favorite civic is still God King?

Right, and right. Changing it could be good: God King for the Emp, Aristocracy for Korrina.

EDIT: Hmm... someone beat me to it. Maybe me, I don't remember. But in "D" her favorite civic is Aristocracy.

God King and unit requirements: Hmm... I don't think so. God King it still appropriate. The MoPs and Praetorians are both very much expressions of the Emperor-centric religion.

Problem: Aristocracy now gives so much of a boost to awakening that it simply doesn't make sense to run anything else. Which I actually don't like; I much preferred the bonus on God King, as it gave you an incentive to use a civic that is otherwise unappealing late gate. Aristocracy is already a nice civic; the Scions don't need to be rewarded for choosing it. With God King you were distinctly giving up better civic options in exchange for higher spawn rate.

EDIT: Whoops, didn't catch the second page. Second time I've done that... >.< Glad to see that change, I approve of that.

EDIT2: Okay, misread that. I think the change should be more than favorite civic; I'd like to see the Emperor get a spawn rate boost from God King and Korrina get the boost from Aristocracy.

Problem: Aristocracy now gives so much of a boost to awakening that it simply doesn't make sense to run anything else. Which I actually don't like; I much preferred the bonus on God King, as it gave you an incentive to use a civic that is otherwise unappealing late gate. Aristocracy is already a nice civic; the Scions don't need to be rewarded for choosing it. With God King you were distinctly giving up better civic options in exchange for higher spawn rate.

EDIT: Whoops, didn't catch the second page. Second time I've done that... >.< Glad to see that change, I approve of that.

EDIT2: Okay, misread that. I think the change should be more than favorite civic; I'd like to see the Emperor get a spawn rate boost from God King and Korrina get the boost from Aristocracy.

Agreed, Aristocracy gives what, 4 happy to a developed city, as well as gold from farms, making those health resources not quite as much a tradeoff, AND less maintenance? It's a bit much.

Problem: Aristocracy now gives so much of a boost to awakening that it simply doesn't make sense to run anything else. Which I actually don't like; I much preferred the bonus on God King,

First time playing them tonight so my head is still swimming, but I would have sworn several units required GodKing civic, but you could certainly make it so that they did, giving a choice (sort of along the binary theme too... emperor or korinna, red lady/black lady, etc)

A quick issue I've had with the Dark Council.
Founding it requires all 4 council members I believe.
However, the amount of time Alcinius actually spends being "with" you is often very short compared to that when he's barb or is with another civ.
I've always tried to religiously hunt him down when he turns more for fun than his actual usage, but even then, when playing on large maps or when I play on continental maps, the chance that he ends up on another continent far away is extremely high.

With the introduction of the unshackling of korinna at KoTE, running for KoTE early is a pretty useful tactic, but, that greatly increases the probability that Alcinius is gone by the time you finished teching up to get the other 3 council members.
In older versions of the scions I would have occasionally held off on KoTE just to ensure I had him when the other 3 are assembled.

Could I suggest that perhaps it be tweaked slightly that you are able to cast the worldspell even without Alcinius with your civ?
Like if you have had his keep built after all--I imagine his saner mage guildmasters at his keep runs his keep perfectly well in his absence.

Problem: Aristocracy now gives so much of a boost to awakening that it simply doesn't make sense to run anything else...

Gimme a break, why don't you join the Barbarians are too tuff threads.

Problem: Aristocracy now gives so much of a boost to awakening that it simply doesn't make sense to run anything else ... I much preferred the bonus on God King, as it gave you an incentive to use a civic that is otherwise unappealing late gate. Aristocracy is already a nice civic; the Scions don't need to be rewarded for choosing it

Anybody else? The present boost is quite large, but I'm not a Aristocracy fan - it is supposed to make up for using the civic.

I originally had the boost a GK to encourage the use of the civic, but given the capital's role as an Awakened factory I thought GK's hammer boost was enough.

Thoughts?

Why should you boost GK when Aristo works great for scions? the bonuses (the farm ones are scarce i admit) are relevant and flavor appropriate. Until there is a plutocracy or oligarchy civic, aristo works great, and frankly aristo works fine as an analogous civic.

edit: aristo takes some time to get, so keep that in mind when you hear complaints about it.

Aristocracy is not very late game; Code of Laws is a pretty important tech to grab ASAP. And it is certainly not a weak civic. It used to be, before it gained a reduction in distance to palace maintenance. Now, however, it gives happiness, reduced maintenance, AND extra commerce, making it quite a good civic, especially in comparison to God King. The boosted Awakening rate on top of that makes it very hard to choose to run God King.

Effectively, the choice is that God King gives you access to some nice units, but Aristocracy makes all your cities bigger faster, lets you expand more, and improves your research.

Admittedly the Scions don't get much from the extra farm commerce, but with the happiness bonuses Aristocracy gives and the fact that the awakening buff is now HUGE (66% if I remember correctly?) instead of the moderate 25% God King used to give...

Huh I thought your problem with Aristo was that you had to take Aristo.

With the Scions your outlying cities (which should be numerous) are unlikely to be large enough to put a dent in your maintenance. The last game I played with scions controlled, easily, a third of a standard tectonic/pangea map and at 100% science I had over 100 gold a turn.


GK becomes obsolete if you play your cards right, after all your capital city (the first one anyway) should be close to having max pop.

With regards to your argument against Aristo versus GK you could easily supply a counter argument...if GK, which takes what two techs to get provided a boost why would anyone want to run Aristo (which takes much more)....much more before you figure that you would probably not beeline towards it because you want the arcane techs.

GK becomes obsolete if you play your cards right, after all your capital city (the first one anyway) should be close to having max pop.

With regards to your argument against Aristo versus GK you could easily supply a counter argument...if GK, which takes what two techs to get provided a boost why would anyone want to run Aristo (which takes much more)....much more before you figure that you would probably not beeline towards it because you want the arcane techs.

This is actually exactly my point. As it stands there is not really any incentive for ANY civ to take God King over other civics. One of the things I liked about the Scions was that they gave you a reason to keep in the late game a civic that normally falls out of use mid-game.

Also, Code of Laws is hugely important for the Emperor to beeline because it gives you the Temple of the Gift and Legates.

EDIT: Also, think thematically. While the Scions under Korrina could be an aristocracy, the Emperor is very much a God-King. Gameplay should back up what is thematic, but right now even as the Emperor there is little reason to go God King.

Personally, I'd like to see both methods kept... Since Korrina cannot build legates, allow her a larger boost at aristocracy, and give the spawning boost to the Emperor with God King... Backs up the story for the civ, and gives an extra boost to Korrina.

I get what you are saying Max.

Here's what I've got for inclusion in the 'pedia. The most useful criticism would be pointing out a basic fact/concept I still haven't covered.

Gaining Population
(this is pretty much what's on the first page in the documentation, just updated.)

The greatest difference between the Scions and the other civs is how the Scions use population, and how they gain it.
As a Fallow civilization the Scions don't need to allocate any of a city's population to gathering food. This means that, given the same population as another civ, Scion cities are far more productive. However, as a Fallow civilization the Scions cannot gain population via food and normal growth. Instead they must lure Awakened from the Bottomless Tomb, create Reborn, or capture cities.

Awakened:

Citizens of long-departed Patria, the Age of Magic's greatest empire, are the the core population of the Scions of Patria. They have been given the Gift, but they still must be brought out of the Bottomless Tomb. Awakened may be "built" in the capital. Structures much like bridges are extended into the Tomb and used to find and ferry the honored dead back into the world. But they are very expensive and inevitably temporary. After a short time they become animate and unalive, like everything in the Tomb, and may no longer be used. Awakened gained this way are expensive. But they honored dead are hard to predict - you'll often be forced to go in after them.

The easiest way for the Scions to get population is for an Awakened just walk out of the capital's Bottomless Tomb of it's own free will. But while the Tomb is bottomless an endless army of Awakened won't be coming: They have their own alien amusements there. The longer they stay the less willing they are to leave.

The frequency with which Awakened emerge is displayed in the message area and can be increased by the player's actions. Building Shrines to Kylorin, Imperial Cenotaphs or Temples of the Gift, Halls of the Covenant, or the Flesh Studio all attract Awakened. Most luxuries will help lure Awakened. Of special note is the "Patrian Artifacts" resource. Only the Scions player can see these resources, and unlike the other luxuries each resource owned increases the odds. The larger, more bustling the Capital the more will Awakened are to emerge. And when society is explicitly run for the benefit of the Awakened, "Aristocracy", Awakened are more likely to come forth.

Reborn:
Reborn are formerly living inhabitants of Erebus granted the Gift and transformed into undead Scions. There are four ways to gain Reborn. First, Reborn can be created from combat with a priest of the Gift - A Legate, a Doomsayer, or a Doomgiver. The enemy unit is persuaded that unlife among the Scions is preferable to their present meager existence. Second, Reborn can be "built" in a city containing a Cathedral of Rebirth. Third, once the Scions have Sorcery and Priesthood a razed city will yield a few Reborn. Finally, the Dark Council generates three Reborn the turn it is established.

Capture cities:
Of course anyone can do this. All you need is a bunch of guys with swords. However, the lifestyles of other civs isn't very compatible with the unlifestyle of the Scions. When a city changes hands to or from the Scions most of the population is lost.

Details on Awakened Spawning:
The formula determining the odds an Awakened appear each turn isn't complicated, but it is rather long.

The base chance for a Standard-sized world is:
Quick: ~9%
Normal: ~6%
Epic: ~3.5%
Marathon: ~3%

World Size adjustment:
"Population limit" / 40
That limit is 20 for a Duel sized world and goes up to 70 for a Huge world.
The world size also sets a cap on Awakened generation: It ranges from 20 for a Duel world to 70 for a Huge one.

Additive factors:
Capital population / 4
Total buildings:
Gift Temples or Cenotaphs * 1
Halls of the Covenant * 2
Shrines to Kylorin / 2

Resources:
The number of Patrian Artifacts available * 0.75
Then +1 each for having any:
Silk, Gold, Gems, Ivory, Dye.

Multipliers:
Civic: Aristocracy? Then * 1.66

Game speed - the numbers are linked to game-speed production adjustments. Divide by...
Quick: 0.5
Normal: 0.75
Epic: 1.125
Marathon: 1.5

Game turn. Every turn it's a little harder by...
Quick: 0.5%
Normal: 0.25%
Epic: 0.165%
Marathon: 0.125%

Ai mod:
The AI gets a 20% bonus.

Leader:
Korrina has a 25% penalty.


The Haunted Lands

The Haunted Lands

It is the nature of the world that everything is itself. This may seem a truism, but it does not hold in the Haunted Lands. The Haunted Lands join everything together, in the Haunted Lands things *blur*. Notably the line between death and life. There life, of a sort, is found in death and death, of a sort, is found in life.

Eating anything grown within the Haunted Lands is very difficult. The grain may scream when harvested and make bread that crumbles into something like bone meal when baked. Its beer could taste and smell of nightmares. Cattle tend to be stillborn, which makes it all the more disturbing as the herds continue to grow.

Nevertheless there is much wealth to be found in the Haunted Lands for the brave of heart and strong of stomach. Examples: A tree with branches that when aged and dried taste of nectar and honey, after being killed and cooked, of course. A stream lined with trainable, watchful stones. A pit full of knowledgeable darkness.

Use Haunted Lands to defend Patria Reborn or spoil the territories of your enemies. The Haunted Lands are not well suited to the living.

The Undead have a natural affinity to the Haunted Lands. Their senses are sharpened, their arms strong. The Haunted Lands are also a source of many wonders... often grotesque or terrible. The useful ones can be kept or traded so others may appreciate the Gift. The useless ones - and there are many - can be a burden to any nearby living land. The Haunted Lands will foster Unhealth in nearby cities.

Perhaps most disturbing, at least to those who haven't accepted the Emperor's Gift, is that those bearing wounds in the Haunted Lands do not always heal true. The substance of the Haunted Lands, or the lack thereof, enters their flesh. They become undead. Some carry on afterward, cleaving to their old gods and loyalties. Some go strange, eventually raising their hand - or whatever's left - against all others.

Ghostwalkers can undergo a different transformation with the Haunted Lands. They share out part of their own substance and humanity to the surrounding terrain, drinking from even more of the territory's inhuman nature. They become Haunts. Insubstantial, but hardly less terrible for that. Whip-fast, hard to see until it's right on top of you, a Haunt's airy frame can't take your head off, but this is hardly a comfort when it roars through your army and sinks it's claws into your skull.

Mending Nature

Three Scion units create Haunted Lands.

Ghostwalkers - With "Necromancy" a Ghostwalker may spend six turns creating a Haunted Lands. tile.

Reaching Creepers - Once "Feral Bond" is reached sufficiently experienced Ghostwalkers may feed Reaching Creepers their own blood. Sated, swollen with a Ghostwalker's strange ichor, the Creeper can put down roots and blossom into a Haunted Land tile.

Redactors - As soon as they're available Redactors can create Haunted Lands. They transform not only their own tile, but those around them as well. The life within a forest or jungle may hold out for a time, but will succumb eventually.


The Dark Council

The High Councilors

Patria was blessed with many men and women of enormous accomplishment. Patria Rebon shares in that blessing and the Age of Magic's greatest Princes and Poets, Warriors and Merchants, daily walk its streets. The Emperor has appointed four such persons special roles in the Age of Rebirth. Not just undead but unconquerable, if destroyed they always pay heed to the Emperor's call and re-emerge from the great Tomb. Each has his or her special role, and together they lead the Scions Dark Council.

Alcinus - The Mad Thaumaturge: Emerges from the Tomb with Knowledge of the Ether. He founds the essential Thaumaturge's Keep in any city outside the capital (the Apparat refuses to allow it near the Palace) and plays an important part in the Empire's Rituals. Subject to periodic bouts of violent madness, the great mage occasionally turns against his own people. At that point there is nothing that may be done but running him down. A new death returns him to the Emperor. Though even that's not certain. Should he go rogue and join a rival civilization the Scions specially trained wizard-hunters - the Emperor's Daggers - will seek him out.

Themoch, the Silent Watcher - Unseen but far from sightless, as patient as the grave, at "Tracking" Themoch rides forth, the perfect sentry and spy.

Pelemoc Goldtongue - He appears most often as a well-off merchant, but will appear in other guises if they serve his need. Pelemoc is no mage, but he bends minds and scatters armies with his mastery of money, with his silver-tongue.

Melante, the Artful Governor - Head of the Dark Council, Melante is knows as much of the ways of men as Pelemoc, and is just as deft with words. But where he persuades, she rules. Any city with Melante as it's governor will be markedly more productive.

The Dark Council

Once all four leading Councilors are together in a city outside the capital Melante may found the Dark Council, casting the Scions of Patria World Spell. The Dark Council world-wonder is created. The Dark Council grants three Reborn, and it's ongoing activities foster both trade in Scions cities and discontent among their enemies.

There is a fifth way to gain reborn: Pelemoc.

On another note, I love your descriptions of Haunted Lands and the Gift.

Another thought, Alcinus can never build the Thaumaturge's Keep in a one city challenge meaning the scions will be stuck with one base mana throughout the game.

First page updated.

Thinking about what to do with the civics, one-city-chal.

You could just add OCC as an OR statement along with the "Is city not Capital" block. Then in a OCC you will be allowed to use the Capital, but otherwise cannot.

Re: God King vs. Aristocracy

Are spawning bonuses a concern at all late-game?

Also:
I like the idea of a boost for both Aristocracy - spawn boost makes a lot of sense - and GK - for the reason it originally got a boost: Tends to be underused. And where Aristocracy fits the people well, GK fits the rulers/religion.

How about some benefit other than a spawning rate boost for GK? Especially something that'd come to the fore mid/late game.

More population gained from captured or razed cities?
Cheaper religious units? (seems too tame)
cheaper Reborn (only mid/late game)

(If someone thinks of something I might go Aristo = spawning boost, GK = that something, or the something + smaller boost.)

I'm certainly going to lower the Aristo. boost, btw.

I like the cheaper Reborn idea.. sends your maintenance through the roof, but allows you to increase your pop easier. Could explain it by saying that while the city still contained a living population, those with the Gift formed an elite Aristocracy, but now that the gift is being spread to the common man, the Aristocracy is no more and the worship of the Emperor has been taken up by those receiving his gift...


Edit: Was the Scions event for reaching the RoP removed?

How about letting Aristo raise the spawn boost, while GK provides a chance (a la slavery) of providing reborn through combat?

Edit: Was the Scions event for reaching the RoP removed?

Only unintentionally. I believe I misplaced the python portion during the Big Merge. I expect the fix'll be in the next patch.

Come to think of it, maybe the event should be. Either that or the Flavormod setting that can place the Scion starting position near the RoP. It seems like *something* should happen, but a GA always seemed like too much - too easy. Maybe add an automatic declaration of war against anyone who happens to own the tile...

Only unintentionally. I believe I misplaced the python portion during the Big Merge. I expect the fix'll be in the next patch.

Come to think of it, maybe the event should be. Either that or the Flavormod setting that can place the Scion starting position near the RoP. It seems like *something* should happen, but a GA always seemed like too much - too easy. Maybe add an automatic declaration of war against anyone who happens to own the tile...

Actually, I'd rather see the flavor removed... The Scions are already high-production, they don't really need to be next to such a high hammer improvement.

Hey Tarq, congrats on getting into FF! Can't wait to see what's happened to the Scions in the 6 months or so since I last booted up Civ 4.

For the next patch I've lowered Aristocracy's spawning mod to 1.4, and given GK a 1.2 mod. I'll do something more interesting/better later.

Quick question:

Any idea why I seem to be unable to build a Temple of the Gift? I'm playing as the Risen Emperor and have the Priesthood tech and all prerequisites, and also have access to Incense, though I'm not sure that's required.

I'm pretty gimped without being able to build the religious units, so a quick solution would be appreciated.

Oh, also, I seem to be unable to build a barracks (barrackses?). I wonder if this is somehow related?

Any idea why I seem to be unable to build a Temple of the Gift? I'm playing as the Risen Emperor and have the Priesthood tech and all prerequisites

Do you have Code of Laws?

That'll do it. I'm pretty sure that didn't show up as a requirement in the Civilopedia, though.

Thanks much.

That'll do it. I'm pretty sure that didn't show up as a requirement in the Civilopedia, though.

Thanks much.

The only techs that show up as requirements in the 'pedia are The Gift, and Code of Laws.

Bankrupted my empire buying Smuggler's Ports to push myself from neutral to evil to see the event, and got a golden age... was really hoping for something more unique, like a promo for Korrina.

Sorry, I was looking at the requirements for the religious units. I do have Code of Laws, but still can't build the Temples.

The religious units show up in the cities' build menus, but are grayed out (says I need a Temple). The Temple doesn't show up anywhere in the build menu.

Hmm... Only requirements for the Temple are The Gift, which you start with, Code of Laws, which you have, and the Emperor, whom you said you're playing as... No idea why you can't build them.

Yeah, not sure what it could be, either. I'll start a new game in a bit and see if that fixes it.

I double-checked, and I definitely do have The Gift, so that's not it.

Also, it's a completely fresh install of Civ 4 and everything else.

was really hoping for something more unique, like a promo for Korrina.

The Event in the other direction offers more.
Something less generic would be nice, but it'll probably wait on the Broader Alignment system getting more development.

Yeah, not sure what it could be, either. I'll start a new game in a bit and see if that fixes it.

What's the 'pedia entry for the Temple otG list as prereqs/cost? Does it say that only the Scions can build it?

I really dislike Pelemoc's war chance for using the subversion spell. It makes no sense because people immigrate to the scions all the time and i'm sure that in order to create reborn they must have someone convincing people to join the scions. I'd like it if it simply had a chance of a diplo penalty, a delay, and/or give the city some food back so it can regrow more easily.

I really dislike Pelemoc's war chance for using the subversion spell. It makes no sense because people immigrate to the scions all the time and i'm sure that in order to create reborn they must have someone convincing people to join the scions. I'd like it if it simply had a chance of a diplo penalty, a delay, and/or give the city some food back so it can regrow more easily.

Looks like he's gaining a new spell next patch... Gift of Succor. Was an idea about him being able to take the sick from a city as a Reborn without causing war, but taking 15 turns to cast... No idea how the new spell will actually work, but that would be cool.

Looks like he's gaining a new spell next patch... Gift of Succor.

GoS is currently 10 turns, 100 gold, no war chance, no population loss, 1 Reborn gained, target city must have 2 or greater unhealth.

"You know we cannot afford a war with the elves."
"Of course, dear lady, you've made that abundantly clear."
"And yet you persist in drawing them to us. I know you enjoy taunting their Queen, but know also you risk the Emperor's good will."
"Yet again, "Of course, dear lady." Did I not mention I have a cunning plan?"
"I find that strangely comfortless."
"Our silent friend here... his little friends move through the western forests as we speak. When they reach the plains there will be a sudden plague in the fields, in the orchards, and in the pastures..."
"Ah. I'll have a mission of aid prepared. There will be famine and sickness among the elves, and where they they walk so does death. And where death walks..."
"... so does salvation. I go not to make war on the elves, but to save them!"

Re: Subversion -
It's supposed to represent some extraordinary efforts on Pelemoc's part to get converts - not "normal" population movement at all. I'm not married to any of the stats, though. The gold and war-chance are particularly ripe for fiddling, I think. Adjust them in opposite ways and the overall balance of the spell wouldn't even have to change.

GoS is currently 10 turns, 100 gold, no war chance, no population loss, 1 Reborn gained, target city must have 2 or greater unhealth.

"You know we cannot afford a war with the elves."
"Of course, dear lady, you've made that abundantly clear."
"And yet you persist in drawing them to us. I know you enjoy taunting their Queen, but know also you risk the Emperor's good will."
"Yet again, "Of course, dear lady." Did I not mention I have a cunning plan?"
"I find that strangely comfortless."
"Our silent friend here... his little friends move through the western forests as we speak. When they reach the plains there will be a sudden plague in the fields, in the orchards, and in the pastures..."
"Ah. I'll have a mission of aid prepared. There will be famine and sickness among the elves, and where they they walk so does death. And where death walks..."
"... so does salvation. I go not to make war on the elves, but to save them!"

Re: Subversion -
It's supposed to represent some extraordinary efforts on Pelemoc's part to get converts - not "normal" population movement at all. I'm not married to any of the stats, though. The gold and war-chance are particularly ripe for fiddling, I think. Adjust them in opposite ways and the overall balance of the spell wouldn't even have to change.

I love the new spell... Was almost right with my guesses too. ;)

I really dislike Pelemoc's war chance for using the subversion spell. It makes no sense because people immigrate to the scions all the time and i'm sure that in order to create reborn they must have someone convincing people to join the scions. I'd like it if it simply had a chance of a diplo penalty, a delay, and/or give the city some food back so it can regrow more easily.

As mentioned to Tal, Pelemoc is such an evil bugger that as a player, even seeing him near my borders would be a declaration of war and all my high-movement units set on instant pursuit.

First awakened/reborn spawned by random event: Turn 87
First awakened spawned regularly: Turn 100

Seriosly - wtf?

How am i expected to compete with the other players in the game with a City of size 2 (actually i had 2 cities with size 1, was my first game with scions) ?

secondly - plz disable the random event, that would reduce the city-size by 1 for Scions. An event thats just a minor nuisance for any other player can be quite devastating for the scions.

plus - its not very logical that a bunch of undead contracts a disease and drops - err - dead?

First awakened/reborn spawned by random event: Turn 87
First awakened spawned regularly: Turn 100

Seriosly - wtf?

How am i expected to compete with the other players in the game with a City of size 2 (actually i had 2 cities with size 1, was my first game with scions) ?
seems like you've just gotten pretty unlucky. Did you go for some of the modifiers, boosting the scion's rate? Running god king early game, going for artifacts of patria and luxury items, building the required buildings etc.

well i did go for god king pretty early but focused on production - and producing my own awakened for the 600 production. Therefore research took quite a while in this game.

As is said - it was my first game with scions and i had no idea of the mechanics, when i started.

Bus i still think, that the mechanics should be changed a little, like raising the likelyhood of getting a new awakened after every turn without a spawn, and resetting the counter every time you got one. Going 100 turns without a spawn is a sure defeat in a multiplayer game.

well i did go for god king pretty early but focused on production - and producing my own awakened for the 600 production.

Do you remember the game speed?

i think it was normal. you might wanna ask jean elcard about these things, he has the savegames.

It was normal speed.

I too had bad luck with the Awakened pops last night (maybe ~70 turns), but I got a great prophet from a giant steading so I beelined code of laws while pushing more GPs, and now I have my capital rolling out 1-turn lvl 3 Legates, so I think this game's going to take a quick turn for the better. (I built three Awakened so far, normal speed, turn ~170). Its really not that bad once you get a good defense up, especially if your capital is geared for production.

The way I see it, the Scions are a deep exponential race, like the Cabalim. You'll likely be pretty far behind for the first 200 turns or so, but once you hit that sweet spot, you can steamroll pretty much anything.

There is certainly a learning curve with the Scions. It's really pretty simple but very much against the grain: Food isn't important, your population gains aren't very predictable through much of the game, the population you do have needs to be thought of somewhat differently (it's all hammers or commerce producing), and you've got a rather different set of goals/needs in the early game. Certain techs are a lot more important, as are certain resources - most luxuries, for example. Rather than spreading out centralization is heavily rewarded.

And I think you need to be aggressive early game. First about getting a good starting spot. Then about either pursuing spawning bonuses, but pumping out Centeni and taking out some of the competition is an option.

Anyway: I've bumped up the early game spawning bonus, removed the Korrina penalty, and Scions can no longer be hit by the Sickness event. (There is a significant living population in pre-Necropolis Scion cities. But that event seems too common given it's greater effect on Scion cities.)

EDIT: I'm also going to see about adding a difficulty level modifier.

What if instead of removing the sickness event, it can spawn an awakened/reborn (perhaps with a cost or tech requirement) a la Pelemoc's new spell. After all, the choice to accept undeath is a lot easier if you're about to die anyway.

Needing a tech requirement wouldn't really help when it should--in the early game when the -1 pop hurts bad.
Later on the event is still a pin-prick, but nothing you cannot handle.

Btw, anyone else having trouble trying to cast their worldspell?
Alcinius is usually the first council member I get since KoTE is so important now to free Korrina (I play as Emp all the time), and by the time the rest are assembled he's always stuck with someone else--often on another continent altogether.
I understand that Daggers have the ability to kill him without repercussions, but when you play on large/huge maps with only 2 national units that could seek him out (and I often play on custom continents so he's almost always on some other continent altogether), its almost impossible to get him back easily. Not to also mention the fact that Daggers require GK and by the time I assemble the other council members its often into the mid-game where running Arist or City-states is a must to lower maintenance costs.

It would be nice if there would be some easier way to cast their worldspell, like simply having the 4 council members in existence (and the founding of the Keep counting as Alcinius' presence), and even possibly some way of getting Alcinius back.
As of now, it is way too much of a hassle to even bother sending Daggers out to search for Alcinius, since he'll go barb anyway in a few turns and I'd rather just train my own adepts/mages/archmages since he's just a glorified hero mage who has a penchant for defecting.
As much as I enjoy the flavour/mechanic of Alcinius' madness, I find that he has no place in Scion strategies since his only job is to found the Keep and have the slim chance of being there to cast their worldspell. Other than that I'd be more than happy to get him to stay out of my way when he turns barb.


A sidenote just for laughs...
Somebody gotta change the promotion name for the Centeni... They are the EXACT opposite of being unreliable. They are perfectly RELIABLE in getting an overall +5% str bonus when the situation demands it =)

I too had bad luck with the Awakened pops last night (maybe ~70 turns), but I got a great prophet from a giant steading so I beelined code of laws while pushing more GPs, and now I have my capital rolling out 1-turn lvl 3 Legates, so I think this game's going to take a quick turn for the better. (I built three Awakened so far, normal speed, turn ~170). Its really not that bad once you get a good defense up, especially if your capital is geared for production.

The way I see it, the Scions are a deep exponential race, like the Cabalim. You'll likely be pretty far behind for the first 200 turns or so, but once you hit that sweet spot, you can steamroll pretty much anything.

Scions aren't really that weak early on... :lol: As long as you aren't that unlucky with awakened pops
They are in fact one of the stronger civs in the early game, being able to found 2 cities right one turn 1, and having free settlers pop out relatively frequently early on--I mean for a regular civ a size 5ish capital would take ~25 turns just to build a settler you get for "free".

I've found I tend to have a score lead for a bit actually, since my pop is all producing commerce and hammers and I can found a second or even third city before the AI's started building a settler, I'm not sacrificing anything by building a worker, etc. Have to balance resource grabs (except when it's a pair of Patrian Artifacts like in my current game!) against keeping your spawn rate up but it seems doable to me.

As a possibility for an alternative mechanic, hows about having an Awakened spawn when a meter fills up? The things which currently affect spawn rates would all provide (or reduce) points towards it, the amount being partly random and a bit fixed, thereby giving a minimum time to get an Awakened. Displaying it would give the player more information about when they can expect a spawn, as well as better feedback on whether their actions were affecting it positively or negatively without having to memorise all the factors. And if the number of points needed increased with each spawn in the same way GPs do, you could reduce or eliminate the decrease in rate over time, which would be helpful - the current system produces a bit of a vicious circle if you're unlucky and don't pop awakened early, since your chance per turn is in fact decreasing, plus you're less well-equipped to build buildings and grab resources which will push it back the other way than someone who got lucky and popped a couple early.

Btw, anyone else having trouble trying to cast their worldspell?

I hope so. :)

He'll be easier to find next version (Daggers get a spell), and a (hopefully near) future version will give you more reasons to want him around.


Not to also mention the fact that Daggers require GK

In the next patch or so Emperor's Daggers will become easier to obtain, and Praetorians will be the only Scion GK units to abandon you if you switch civics. (If they aren't already.)

I've found I tend to have a score lead for a bit actually, since my pop is all producing commerce and hammers and I can found a second or even third city before the AI's started building a settler, I'm not sacrificing anything by building a worker, etc. Have to balance resource grabs (except when it's a pair of Patrian Artifacts like in my current game!) against keeping your spawn rate up but it seems doable to me.

I don't know how common this strategy is, but I know that personally my score early game as the Scions is HUGE because rather than start with a 2-pop capital, I always choose to start with 2 cities. This gives you a lot more resources to grab, better chance of upping your spawn rate early, Korinna can defend the capital while your starting warrior defends the other city, and one city can produce warriors while the other makes a worker. Admittedly I'd only do this with the Emperor, but I generally only play the Emperor. :)

I am curious, though, how many others go for two cities instead of a pop 2 capital?

@Tarq: Thanks~ :lol: finally i get to try their worldspell~

@Max: I always found 2 cities, and often grab a third with the first awakened pop.
Yea you could leave Korrina to secure your capital while your warrior garrisons the next.
I find that spamming out size 1-2 cities while all building markets+elders can work pretty well running Arist later on to defray maint costs. Then maybe filling up the resource-rich cities with tiles with high outputs when you start getting legates to "harvest" population.

Next version will have difficulty level adjustments for spawning - that lack may have been causing significant problems, especially among new players at lower levels.

I also got around to sweetening God King - It's still Aristoc *1.4 vs. *1.2 for God King, but now God King offers:

1 more Reborn is gained when razing cities, assuming you'd get any at all.
Fewer people are lost when taking cities.
Reborn are ~15-30% cheaper.

That certainly helps make up for the huge cut in maintenance Aristocracy gets you, and fairly well brings it back to Aristo for Korinna and God King for Emperor. I approve. :)

Honestly I do not see why spawning should be linked to difficulty, it ain't that hard people.

Not everyone can be a civilization god like you, deadliver; your comments should really take into account us mere mortals. :p

That said, spawning influenced by difficulty is fine as long as it isn't a huge difference.

I approve. :)

Good. :)

The difficulty-level adjustment is +50% at Settler, -10% each level after that. So +10% at Noble and -30% at Deity.

We'll see what happens.

oww this is gonna hurt bad playing them on immortal/diety =(

Double post! Oh noes!

oww this is gonna hurt bad playing them on immortal/diety =(

Thats where I play - I didn't find it so bad in the couple of games I tried. But yeah, if it was balanced there then this won't be. OTOH, I still won...

It's a really easy function to adjust, btw, so if it needs to be changed that won't be a problem. Not like the spawn-chance display, say, which was a total b-word.

Honestly I do not see why spawning should be linked to difficulty, it ain't that hard people.

The fact that it isn't that hard is WHY it is being linked to difficulty. If the player who is comfortable with Deity is getting settlers just as fast as the player who can barely scrape by on Warlord, then the player on Deity is getting too much of an advantage.

Going by the wording, I would suspect you are picturing the scale working opposite of how it does. The setup now is that if YOU have a HIGHER difficulty and play as the Scions, you spawn SLOWER. But if YOU have a HIGHER difficulty and the AI runs the Scions, they spawn FASTER.

This way, the balance shifts in favor of the AI at higher levels, and the Human at lower ones, as is the base intention of the handicap settings to start with.

I see this is really a fix for the AI.

I'm getting the impression that it might be beneficial to try and run a compact empire with Scions - maybe five or six well-placed cities max - and try and stay in GK for the associated Scion bonuses, and develop vertically.

Alcinus - The Mad Thaumaturge:[...] A new death returns him to the Emperor. Though even that's not certain.

So is there a percentage chance that Alcinus does not return from death? Is there a time interval sometimes before he returns?

I just started a game and he didn't return (yet?) after I had to kill him when he went barbarian. This was the first time in this game for him to turn barbarian.

Last experiment with the Scions had him returning immediately after being killed the first time. When I had to kill him again several turns later he didn't return.

If he doesn't return from death, I would assume you can never cast the world spell. Is this correct? Seems extremely restrictive. By the time you have all 4 members you are bound to have lost Alcinus either through bad luck of him being far far away or more likely him never returning to the emperor after death.

Is this correct or am I missing something?

he'll always respawn, but not always under your control. He can be revived in the service of another civ, which means you'll have to kill him again to have him return to you.
Another reason i'm now going the recon line with the SoP first, grabbing the other council members before getting alcinus. Don't worry about defence, just get a few velites up to unplacable early game vs barbs, upgrade them to certinus (or whatever the hunter replacement is) and they should be able to stop pretty much everything your opponents throw at you. unplacable + drill 4 = 6-10 first strikes, with +50% heal rates + march

he'll always respawn, but not always under your control. He can be revived in the service of another civ, which means you'll have to kill him again to have him return to you.
Another reason i'm now going the recon line with the SoP first, grabbing the other council members before getting alcinus. Don't worry about defence, just get a few velites up to unplacable early game vs barbs, upgrade them to certinus (or whatever the hunter replacement is) and they should be able to stop pretty much everything your opponents throw at you. unplacable + drill 4 = 6-10 first strikes, with +50% heal rates + march

Okay, thanks for the quick answer. So I have to find which civ has him, reach the civ (hoping that by the time I reach him he didn't get revived in yet another civ), kill him off and hope that he comes back to me and not another civ where I'll start all over again. It seems unless this "feature" is changed, getting all 4 members together in one city is highly unlikely unless you get Alcinus last which means postponing the adept line.

It seems unless this "feature" is changed, getting all 4 members together in one city is highly unlikely unless you get Alcinus last which means postponing the adept line.

I generally go for Adept first, and just hope he'll come back. He does tend to return - There's 2 checks performed when he's killed:

In the first the Scions have a 1/3 chance of getting him. If they don't there's a second check in which all non-barbarian civs - including the Scions - have an equal chance to get him.

That's the way it is now. (And has been for awhile.) The next patch should include a "spell" for Emperor's Daggers showing them where Alcinus is located. And they'll still be able to attack him without triggering a war via their other special "spell".

Tarquelne, what do you think of letting him always return to the Scion Capital if he is killed by an Emperor's Dagger? Or at least a much higher chance? Surely they're equipped with some kind of binding enchantment if they're hunting down such a powerful mage. This does get quite tedious when you play with 16+ civs and want to found to dark council. I am sure you realize how dangerous Feudalism before KotE every game is on immortal +.

I generally go for Adept first, and just hope he'll come back. He does tend to return - There's 2 checks performed when he's killed:

In the first the Scions have a 1/3 chance of getting him. If they don't there's a second check in which all non-barbarian civs - including the Scions - have an equal chance to get him.

That's the way it is now. (And has been for awhile.) The next patch should include a "spell" for Emperor's Daggers showing them where Alcinus is located. And they'll still be able to attack him without triggering a war via their other special "spell".

Thanks for the clarification, Tarquelne. That makes me feel better knowing the likelihood of him returning is very decent even without having to resort to the Emperor's Daggers.

Tarquelne, what do you think of letting him always return to the Scion Capital if he is killed by an Emperor's Dagger? Or at least a much higher chance?

That's a good idea. I'm not sure I can do it, but it's certainly a good idea. :)

I do generally play on smaller maps - or at least fewer civs. The map type can indeed make a big difference. Some Erebus maps, for example, seem to generate large areas that stay Barbarian most of the game. Alcinus can wander into one and never come out.

he'll always respawn, but not always under your control. He can be revived in the service of another civ, which means you'll have to kill him again to have him return to you.
Another reason i'm now going the recon line with the SoP first, grabbing the other council members before getting alcinus. Don't worry about defence, just get a few velites up to unplacable early game vs barbs, upgrade them to certinus (or whatever the hunter replacement is) and they should be able to stop pretty much everything your opponents throw at you. unplacable + drill 4 = 6-10 first strikes, with +50% heal rates + march

One nice thing about other civs getting him - often he'll come back with new spells from your neighbor's spheres when resurrected. Its a good way to collect spells that you only want one of.

That's a good idea. I'm not sure I can do it, but it's certainly a good idea. :)

I do generally play on smaller maps - or at least fewer civs. The map type can indeed make a big difference. Some Erebus maps, for example, seem to generate large areas that stay Barbarian most of the game. Alcinus can wander into one and never come out.

Thanks. I honestly know nothing about coding but I think I know a way to do it. You know how promotions like diseased get passed onto certain creatures (living) after combat? Diseased, for example, would check if the unit is living and then have a chance of passing it on to them after combat. I think poison is similarly related to if you're immune to poison or not.

Why not make a dagger transfer some kind of promotion that makes units resurrect in capital when it kills the unit if the unit has the "mad" promotion? It would have to somehow overide the python/sdk or whever is used though. Again I'm shooting in the dark but hope that sparks some ideas. :)

...Some Erebus maps, for example, seem to generate large areas that stay Barbarian most of the game. Alcinus can wander into one and never come out.

One way to change this is give him a chance to randomly go un-barbarian (maybe only if he is in unowned/barbarian territory). Then he would join a random civ, kill a few barbs if he's lucky, and then die and be reborn somewhere.

Why not make a dagger transfer some kind of promotion that makes units resurrect in capital when it kills the unit if the unit has the "mad" promotion?

There's already some python that runs when Alcinus is killed - Xienwolf made a big improvement to the code there, btw - I believe I can do this: Check for the presence of an Emperor's Dagger in a plot adjacent to Alcinus. If there is one - automatic return to the Scions.

I figure snatching the body is well within a Dagger's abilities, whether she kills him or not.

Or you could check for PROMOTION_ALCINUS_HOSTILE if you want to make it a little harder. Assume the bribes include misplacing the corpse.

There is something I wonder about the Daggers though. They need to be level 3 of a unit type that is hard to level, since they die spontaneously. However, with the new experience system all you have to do is park them in a city with a Hunting guild for a while. Is that intended behaviour?

Or you could check for PROMOTION_ALCINUS_HOSTILE if you want to make it a little harder. Assume the bribes include misplacing the corpse.

Harder? Oh, you mean for the player, not for me to put into python. I'm more concerned with me. :) Very good idea.

However, with the new experience system all you have to do is park them in a city with a Hunting guild for a while. Is that intended behaviour?

Nope - thanks. I'll bump up the minimum level.

GAMW, when E comes out I'm going to spend a goodly amount of time playing.

First off, wow. Thanks for this incredible mod-mod (-mod?). I grabbed the latest FF the day it came out, and have been tooling around with the Scions ever since. To my shame, I haven't played much past mid-game as I keep learning more about early strategy and starting over from scratch. However, a few thoughts:

Population Mechanic:
Pros: Hands down the best mechanic for a fallow race. I love the current modifiers and the question of where to expand and where to invest the few pop I get. I tend to play long, drawn out builder games, and the sensation of building up a city of Reborn is fantastic. Also, the fact that Muris Clan Goblins no longer requires a reload to try and skip is an added bonus.
Cons: Flavor. This is mainly the result of events, not the intended mechanic. "Your city has been struck by a wasting disease, -1 pop" is the worst offender. Can someone add in a new option for the Scions that allows them to avoid this pop loss? Another perplexing one is River of Blood- what on earth would the Calabim feed on?

Heroes:
Pros: All innovative. On my last game I was stealing population regularly with Pelemoc from my neighbor who finally [roughly 12 population in] decided to declare war. To my surprise, he had a massive army I had not accounted to just returning from war with the Sheaim. Mayhem ensued.
Cons: Alcinus. I've read through this thread on the different methods of dealing with him. I tend to avoid the Recon Line, so if he vanishes after I make the DC I just ignore his loss. After all, I can build non-crazy Archmages just fine. Tracking him down where-ever he may be on the globe does not appeal to me. Two thoughts on improving his functionality.
-Reduce/eliminate his bonus promotions. On my last playthrough I decided to abuse Random Seed and just kept killing/loading till I kept him. This resulted in a comically advanced Alcinus very early on. Obviously, in a non-abuse game the two promotions are less of a concern, but still a decided advantage to both Scions and a Human player who gets him.
-Eliminate the function of the Emperor's Daggers in tracking and killing him. For one, this prevents the frustration of having tracked to KotE early to free Karina and losing Alcinus the next turn. Instead, make a ritual which has the same function. It would be available when Alcinus is in existence but is not owned by the player, and would increase in cost with each tech which allows a higher tier Alcinus. This would allow you to regain him with a minimum of micromanaging [Is he here? No, how about there? Wait, a unit stack went by and back into shroud, was he with them?]. Balance wise, it helps a human player who receives Alcinus to know roughly how many turns he might have control of the mage. Flavor wise, the ritual would represent gathering the resources needed to send out assassins world-wide, with the increasing cost representing Alcinus' increasing power and desire to escape Scion control.

UB:
Thaumaturge's Keep: Fantastic. I would like to see a bit more balancing on all the buildings though. I like Military Abattoir's balance, and that of some of the negative mana types.
All Gift/Cult Buildings: Great for flavor and mechanic.

UU:
Haven't played around a ton yet, but I enjoy access to early defensive units.

Things I'd like to see:
-Some kind of bonus associated with Remnants of Patria. It is, after all, the most logically associated UF for the Scions. Maybe a one time bonus of Reborn when your cultural borders include the Remnants? I'm thinking of how Letum Frigus gives a bonus for the Amurites and Illians.

Population Mechanic:
Cons: Flavor. This is mainly the result of events, not the intended mechanic. "Your city has been struck by a wasting disease, -1 pop" is the worst offender. Can someone add in a new option for the Scions that allows them to avoid this pop loss? Another perplexing one is River of Blood- what on earth would the Calabim feed on?


I've dialed out the Calibim and Malakim on my Erebus maps. The Calabim for your stated reason and the Malakim so they don't take a desert spot. Seems if they are in the game, my Scions wind up in a lush grassland area.

I've been enjoying the Scions very much.

Egads I hate it when the Calabim river of blood my cities, losing two per city is a big loss and quite annoying.

Agreed, although seeing as the Calabim technically use the souls of victims to maintain themselves, and the whole blood thing is just for kicks, I guess it works on the Undead too, or at least the Scions version.

Good point. Now get back to work on your mod mod *whip whip*

edit: err I guess thats really mod mod mod?

The Scions do lose less pop from River!... Of!... BLOOOOD!

1 less, IIRC.

I guess they are getting a taste of their own medicine, losing population through the actions of another nefarious group.

Could set a check in River of Blood to skip Fallow cities. Makes sense for both cases

Would it be possible to also set it for the disease event? That one feels even weirder than losing them to river of blood.

Why? I get sick all the time.;)

Could set a check in River of Blood to skip Fallow cities. Makes sense for both cases

I think the logic is that there are living people in Scions' cities that wait on the undead (and I thought I've had crappy jobs) so that could be where the blood is coming from. That said, I doubt those servants are where the real population is coming from. Would it be hard to change the effect from a loss of population to some temporary unhappiness?

Cons: Flavor. This is mainly the result of events, not the intended mechanic. "Your city has been struck by a wasting disease, -1 pop" is the worst offender.

I believe I zapped *a* disease event as of patch E/F. There may be more than one. If anyone sees one make a note of the text message received and post it in the bug thread.

what on earth would the Calabim feed on?

This has been discussed some above already - I'll add that early (pre Necropolis) cities have significant populations of living beings. Somebody's got to take out the trash.


-Reduce/eliminate his bonus promotions. On my last playthrough I decided to abuse Random Seed and just kept killing/loading till I kept him. This resulted in a comically advanced Alcinus very early on.

That should be fixed as of this patch, too.



Flavor wise, the ritual would represent gathering the resources needed to send out assassins world-wide, with the increasing cost representing Alcinus' increasing power and desire to escape Scion control.

That makes sense. However, I like making people go get him. The new spell should make this far simpler - you can home right in on him.

Maybe too simple...


Thaumaturge's Keep: Fantastic. I would like to see a bit more balancing on all the buildings though. I like Military Abattoir's balance, and that of some of the negative mana types.

Any suggestions? (I'm somewhat burnt out on the keep buildings and not inclined to do anything without someone's suggestion to consider, reject, and then do things the way I want. :))


-Some kind of bonus associated with Remnants of Patria. It is, after all, the most logically associated UF for the Scions. Maybe a one time bonus of Reborn when your cultural borders include the Remnants?

ATM the Scions get a Golden Age out of the Remnants. What you suggest sounds a lot more interesting, though. At least the "borders" part - moving a unit there is often pretty easy.

I've dialed out the Calibim and Malakim on my Erebus maps. The Calabim for your stated reason and the Malakim so they don't take a desert spot. Seems if they are in the game, my Scions wind up in a lush grassland area.

Ah. I've seemed to have been getting a LOT of grasslands starts. Seemed odd considering the Scions flavormod setup. It might just be the Erebus map, too. Jean Elcard is looking into it, I believe.

Glad you guys are enjoying the Scions. Thanks for all the feedback.

EDIT: "Patch F" changelog posted on first page.

I believe I zapped *a* disease event as of patch E/F. There may be more than one. If anyone sees one make a note of the text message received and post it in the bug thread.


Once again, thanks to the patch I get a restart prior to making it past midgame. :) One of the reasons I love FfH.

Posting this on the bug thread as well. I'll be adding to this post as I play today.

Running Patch F

An unusual wasting disease has spread in the city of Avitas. The children seem the strongest hit and the healers warn that many more will die if nothing is done.
Options:
-Do Nothing [-1 pop]
-Send Healers [Reqs Body]
Ideally, this event would not activate for Scions. However, there could be a flavor solution, something along these lines.
*Let the living perish. More will be drawn to serve the needs of Patria Reborn.
[+2 temporary unhappiness, both from the living servants and from Reborn whose laundry isn't getting done on time.]

Ideally, this event would not activate for Scions. However, there could be a flavor solution, something along these lines.

Ok, thanks! I believe I tracked down the bug this time.

(Disagreement in function names. Cut and paste this time - Apparently I can't be trusted to remember a word in the time it takes to tab from one file to another.)

It should make the "ideal" solution above work, but I like your flavor idea.

Cool deal. I know zero about the actual XML stuff behind these games, but I did work as a tester for Volition so I feel your pain. :)

Preliminary feedback [I basically reloaded over and over again to get these].

Thaumaturge's Keep Suggestions

Mana Buildings:
One source of reload. There are universally "good" mana types to get. These add health, happiness or gold to both your city and in some cases your civ. There are also "bad" mana types that add an additional penalty to the city while providing access to a mana type that does nothing for your civ, only unlocking some spells that in all honesty I never really use. Below are my suggestions for making these buildings more balanced.

Air: Nothing. Air does not provide a universal bonus either. Possible solutions include granting a +1:health: bonus [due to the fresh air brought in] or [overpowered] granting Mobility 1 to units produced. I'd vote health bonus.

Body: +1:health:, -5% military:hammers:. I'm guessing this is based on flavor- the fact that Reborn liked to look prettier and would use it for such rather than joining the military. Fits.

Chaos: +1:mad:, +1:yuck:, +10% maintenance, +2:science:. Fits, balanced.

Death: +1:), +2 Death, +10% military:hammers:. Fits, and is generally awesome.

Earth: +1:gold:, +5% defense. Universal finding bonus. Works.

Enchantment: +1:gold:, +1:) universal. Seems a bit too good. The universal happiness is enough of a bonus. Maybe cut the :gold:?

Entropy: Wow. This is a reload and a half. +1:mad:, +1:yuck:, -1:culture:, -5% military:hammers: and a spell tree that is practically worthless. If the intent is to show how much the Scions hate being reminded of the eventual Heat Death of the Universe, why would they even allow the Keep to stand? Honestly, I don't know how to balance this while keeping it in flavor. Any suggestions for promotions, spells, or additional effects?

Fire: +1:mad:, access to the fire tree. Fire spells are useful, and Undead fear it, so I'm fine keeping it this way.

Force: 10% defense, access to force. Fairly weak, but not much else to do flavor wise. At least it doesn't nerf the city any.

Mind: Universal +3% to research. Suggestion from my roommate: give a small bonus to Awakening. Mind mana increases the call of the Risen Emperor.

Shadow: +1 :yuck:, -1:culture:, +3 Crime Rate, +1:traderoute:. Fairly weak bonus. Unsure of the flavor reason behind the penalty to Unhealth and Culture. I'd suggest eliminating the unhealth bonus, upping the crime rate to +10, and giving two trade routes.

Water: +1:health:. Fits. Water tree isn't great, but not going to spit a bonus in the eye.

3 Bonus Buildings:

Alcinus' Trove: Never got, but the description seems good.

Schola Furo: +1:yuck:, +1:mad:, +4xp for Arcane. Fits.

Death Mana+: +1:), +2 Death, +10% military:hammers:. Fits, and is generally awesome.

Alchemist's Tower:
+3:science:. Universally good. No need to change unless you want to nerf it

Military Abattoir:
+10% military:hammers:, -10%:culture:. Excellent balance. The extra military production vs loss of culture fits both flavor wise and balance wise

Noxious Smell:
+1:yuck: and -1 culture. Not a deal breaker if I have other good buildings, but no reason to keep average ones. Suggestions: Undead Units built in this city start with Malaise. As far as I can tell, Malaise in of itself is a fairly uncommon promotion. Useful only against the AI, and available fairly late game. This would see it having a bit more use, and also fits with flavor. After all, if you're raised in a place filled with Noxious Smells as a member of the Undead, it probably lingers on you for a loooong time.

Corrosive Spills:
-2 hammers is somewhat of a drawback early game. To balance this, I suggest that units built within this city receive a free Poisoned Blade promotion and also that the penalty be increased accordingly [-3, maaaybe -4 if people feel poisoned blade is overpowered]. Flavor- while the common citizenry may dislike the toxins, it must be nice to just be able to dip your sword into the nearest puddle to make it toxic to your living enemies. Balance- makes you decide if it is worth it.

Keep:

Wow! I'll add that to the documentation. Thanks for all the feedback - I'll respond to it later.

But for now...


[I basically reloaded over and over again to get these].

To avoid the reloading you can open the World Building and plop them all down in a city. Choose "Buildings" in either Player mode or Edit City mode. The Keep buildings are the block of 20 identical icons (same one as for the Keep's build spell) very near the end of the Buildings list.

(Scion stuff tends to be toward the end of all the lists in the WB. May change in the future but convenient for now.)

Also:
The Trove is +2 gold and gives 2 Patrian Artifacts.

ATM the Scions get a Golden Age out of the Remnants. What you suggest sounds a lot more interesting, though. At least the "borders" part - moving a unit there is often pretty easy.


For some bizarre reason I had never noticed that before my current game. Despite having it there and working the plot, I must never have moved a unit onto it.:lol:

I lean towards border bonuses mainly because of irritation with the current exploration rewards for Letum Frigus. The one game I started close enough to it to explore as the Illians the Amurites beat me there. Despite being on the other side of the continent. They enjoyed that Golden Age right up until Auric nuked their cities off the map.

Mana Buildings:
One source of reload. There are universally "good" mana types to get. These add health, happiness or gold to both your city and in some cases your civ.

Some comments on balance:

I'm leary about trying to balance with reloading in mind. The Keep is supposed to be balanced in an "overall" manner - not each building. The 2 negative building possibilities, for example, are supposed to be *negative*. And note that since even getting a good or bad final 2 buildings is up to chance it is the *possibility* of getting a good building balanced against the *possibility* of getting a bad building.

Some building/mana combinations are worse than others. I don't want any 1 game to be too unbalanced, but the Scions are supposed to offer a wider variety in play style - You're supposed to get stuck with mana you don't really want some games. Some games you get good random buildings, other games you don't...


There are also "bad" mana types that add an additional penalty to the city while providing access to a mana type that does nothing for your civ, only unlocking some spells that in all honesty I never really use.

That being said I do want to weed out mana/buildings that are too close to useless...


Body: +1:health:, -5% military:hammers:. I'm guessing this is based on flavor- the fact that Reborn liked to look prettier and would use it for such rather than joining the military. Fits.

Don't remember why, actually. That sounds good.


Death: +1:), +2 Death, +10% military:hammers:. Fits, and is generally awesome.

I don't really like this one myself. I'd rather have a different mana type. I do like the "flavor" of it having other good characteristics.


Enchantment: +1:gold:, +1:) universal. Seems a bit too good. The universal happiness is enough of a bonus. Maybe cut the :gold:?

But you can make such pretty things! :)


Entropy: Wow. This is a reload and a half. +1:mad:, +1:yuck:, -1:culture:, -5% military:hammers: and a spell tree that is practically worthless. If the intent is to show how much the Scions hate being reminded of the eventual Heat Death of the Universe, why would they even allow the Keep to stand? Honestly, I don't know how to balance this while keeping it in flavor. Any suggestions for promotions, spells, or additional effects?

I like Ent. mana - Rust can be great. And yes, the Scions aren't supposed to like having something spewing Entropy mana in the city. Maybe I'll drop either the culture or hammer penalty, though.


Shadow: +1 :yuck:, -1:culture:, +3 Crime Rate, +1:traderoute:. Fairly weak bonus. Unsure of the flavor reason behind the penalty to Unhealth and Culture. I'd suggest eliminating the unhealth bonus, upping the crime rate to +10, and giving two trade routes.

Hmm... I think I'll eliminate the unhealth and raise the crime.

The Keep is supposed to be balanced in an "overall" manner - not each building. The 2 negative building possibilities, for example, are supposed to be *negative*. And note that since even getting a good or bad final 2 buildings is up to chance it is the *possibility* of getting a good building balanced against the *possibility* of getting a bad building.

Okay, that makes sense. My only real issue is when the combination of the Keep buildings forces a reload. The Keep itself only provides a +2 science bonus, so when you get stuck with *all* negative effect buildings the increased access to mana usually doesn't inspire me to keep it. I understand what you're saying about balancing the chance of a good building vs a bad building though.

I can see why disease and River of Blood affect the Scion.

The dead are really only enticed out of the underworld if they are promised luxuries and worship. This requires enough living around to provide them with the constant chanting, adoration, sacrifices of worldly goods and possessable meat suits needed to keep their attention on the land of the living, a place some of them abandoned long ago. When something like a plague or River of Blood hits, it hits the small populations of attendants hard. With the accompanying loss of attention to the ancients and so some of the bored dead end up slipping back over to the other side.

I live the Scions. They remind me a lot of the Abyssals from the Exalted table top RPG.

Never played Exalted, but loved the artwork and combat maneuvers when i browsed the book a few dozen times over the years :)

Fun system. Seeing what's been done with FFH and FF makes me wish I knew enough about moding to do an Exalted variant.

If you really wanted to expand Scion, check out the 2nd ed Abyssals. Two elements that might work well with Scion:

Cult of the Dead - For the Scion, it would give bonuses to recruiting Reborn from nations who have adopted it. For non-Scion, minor bonus for Haunted Lands and Death mana or benefits to research as the beloved and honored dead ancestors whisper secrets from the beyond, though that all might mirror Ashen Veil a little too much. Or make it required to open up research into Necrotech.

Necrotech - the use of the dead for machines, artifacts, tools, weapons of war, etc.

The Scions are highly addictive, kept me low on sleep for a week now :)

However... is it possible that there's a problem with legates "capturing" reborns? I almost never get a reborn out of a fight.
In a previous game, I had 4 priest units each ~120 XP and all I ever got from them were 2 reborns during the entire game. Now, in a new game, it seems to be the same.
I used the world editor to experiment a bit: slaying ~40 goblins and ~40 scouts (AI-civ) did not get me any reborn at all. So much about 20% chance.

If it's not a bug, am I missing something? An important tech, promotion, national building...?
Please help... :)

The Scions are highly addictive, kept me low on sleep for a week now :)

However... is it possible that there's a problem with legates "capturing" reborns? I almost never get a reborn out of a fight.
In a previous game, I had 4 priest units each ~120 XP and all I ever got from them were 2 reborns during the entire game. Now, in a new game, it seems to be the same.
I used the world editor to experiment a bit: slaying ~40 goblins and ~40 scouts (AI-civ) did not get me any reborn at all. So much about 20% chance.

If it's not a bug, am I missing something? An important tech, promotion, national building...?
Please help... :)

This is a known mishap. The logic was inverted by mistake and will be fixed in the next update.

Likewise, I've been playing the Scions exclusively. In fact, I haven't even dl'd FFH2 ver 4.0 yet. Gonna wait till the FF guys update thier mod for the latest FFH2.;)

You ought to download 040 now, as you will probably need to have it installed before installing FF (to snag the artwork mostly), and playing Scenarios REQUIRES 040.

ah, thank you... at least I know I'm not *too* dumb :)
is there any chance of fixing this on my own, adding a line here or there?
the next patch always takes too long when you're waiting for it... (even if it happened tomorrow *g*)

is there any chance of fixing this on my own, adding a line here or there?
the next patch always takes too long when you're waiting for it... (even if it happened tomorrow *g*)

It sounded like it was in the dll. So we will have to wait for the up-date.

It sounded like it was in the dll. So we will have to wait for the up-date.

Yep.

OTOH, on the subject of things that can be fixed outside the dll: There is a fix for the "True Pilgrim" bug. It's here. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=196904&d=1229047459)

So... now that a bunch of new players have tried the Scions out - What do you think of Heavy Formation and the HF Units (Axeman/Honored Band, Champion/Principes, Royal Guard/Praetorian, Phalanx)?

Currently the version for the next release is:
+10% combat
10 collateral damage protection (added)
Move discount of -1
+1 support cost (changed from straight +1 gold cost)
Can't get Mobility.
The HF units have resource-based discounts available. IIRC they're generally a little more expensive than their equivilents without any of the resources, a little cheaper with.

That's *supposed* to happen is that you want some around, but they're too expensive to spam.

Heavy formation grants little and takes a lot. Without mobilityI (which would mean extra 3 movement on road) you cant get theese units where you need them in time (ia: a turn late to garrison a city with an adjacent enemy stack of mounted units)
Also, what are the effects of the movement discount?

Can you explain to me again why I sometimes can raise a city to population 8 with Awakened and sometimes only to 4 .. the value varies .. by using 'add to city'?

Can you explain to me again why I sometimes can raise a city to population 8 with Awakened and sometimes only to 4 .. the value varies .. by using 'add to city'?

It should be because of the happiness limit - the 'add to city' spell won't work if it'd make the city unhappy. ATM I can't think of any other intentional limitations placed on the ability.

It should be because of the happiness limit - the 'add to city' spell won't work if it'd make the city unhappy. ATM I can't think of any other intentional limitations placed on the ability.

Ah, cool. Thank you.

So... now that a bunch of new players have tried the Scions out - What do you think of Heavy Formation and the HF Units (Axeman/Honored Band, Champion/Principes, Royal Guard/Praetorian, Phalanx)?

Currently the version for the next release is:
+10% combat
10 collateral damage protection (added)
Move discount of -1
+1 support cost (changed from straight +1 gold cost)
Can't get Mobility.
The HF units have resource-based discounts available. IIRC they're generally a little more expensive than their equivilents without any of the resources, a little cheaper with.

That's *supposed* to happen is that you want some around, but they're too expensive to spam.

I'm not terribly fond of it - I mean, I like the flavor, tougher and more expensive units that move slower fit well with the overall "defensive/economic" theme of the Scions. It just seems like very little benefit for a lot of cost - keep in mind that along with no mobility, they do not benefit from haste as well, permanently trapped at 1 movement. I wouldn't mind this at all, again it fits the theme, if these guys were bad-asses once they finally arrived - but they're really not much more powerful than the units they replace, and they're costing you more gold meanwhile. I'd like them better if the additional support cost was removed (they're undeads, they don't need food..), or if they were noticeably stronger in combat, or if they started with "march"+"medic" or "implacable" to keep them moving when on the offensive and tougher to wear down when defending.

Edit: That is to say, I don't like the heavy promotion - I do like the Honored Bands themselves, headless along with the anti-archery bonus is an interesting tradeoff when compared to normal axeman. The principes.. it's frustrating that my experienced honored bands, the first wave of any city attack, are stuck with headless when I upgrade them to principes, yet new principes I build for defensive purposes need to gain some levels and waste a promotion on headless. It's the inconsistency that's irritating - I'd like them much better if, for example, all principes started as 7/5 with the headless promotion (so 6/6+10% whether you build them new or upgrade them). In fact if they were changed like that, I wouldn't even mind the costliness of the heavy promotion.

It just seems like very little benefit for a lot of cost

That's three of us - Unless persuaded otherwise I'll be giving the Promotion some sort of boost.

Anyone have thoughts on the promotion getting back the -10% penalty with forest/jungle Features? A new tag would allow for a help window without a bunch of redundant text.

The principes.. it's frustrating that my experienced honored bands, the first wave of any city attack, are stuck with headless when I upgrade them to principes, yet new principes I build for defensive purposes need to gain some levels and waste a promotion on headless.

Interesting - I'm happy to have the Headless HB but generally don't want my Principes to have it - not more than I'd upgrade from HB at least. (Note you can make a HB and then upgrade to Principes, resulting in a Headless Principes. A significant gold cost, though, which may be why you didn't mention it...)

If theres considerable support for it I could add the ability to add/remove heads - probably using the Equipment system. I like having the Honored Band be special that way, though. And well deserving Centeni, of course.

I think just increasing the stength bonus would be ok (+30%). Or also add immune to first strikes or heal while moving. I see theese guys as roman undead legionaires (*shiver*) with large shields and following a dense serpent/turtle formation, so immune to first strikes would be justified.

Personally, I'll be real sad to see the change of the additional cost. Flavor wise, I loved the progression.

-Paying the extra gold before combat with the living
-Paying the salary to the dead

Made balancing important, and most of all, prevented you from switching to Military civics to essentially cancel out the cost of these units. I'd prefer it left as is.

Immune to First Strikes is a good suggestion for upping the power.

Are there any plans to adapt Heavy Formation to the changes to chariots and knights?

I think splitting the current Heavy Formation into two promotions, one with the movement limitations and general penalties, and a new one, let's call it Elite, that grants +30% combat and +1 cost.

Upgraded Chariots would then lose Heavy Formation but retain Elite.

some issues I've run into playing the Scion:

Ghostwalkers will suddenly loose the ability to feed Creepers. I've not been able to figure out any consistent reason why they can feed one or two creepers then quit being able to.

If the chance to spawn an awakened drops into the negative range, building additional building that should bring it up simply make the chance drop further. Can the chance be set so there is always a minimum chance an awakened will spawn as long as population limit has not been reached?

And Ghostwalkers cannot be stopped making Haunted Lands once they've started.

Ghostwalkers will suddenly loose the ability to feed Creepers. I've not been able to figure out any consistent reason why they can feed one or two creepers then quit being able to.

Feeding Creepers costs some experience. Probably the walker doesn't have enough.

If the chance to spawn an awakened drops into the negative range, building additional building that should bring it up simply make the chance drop further. Can the chance be set so there is always a minimum chance an awakened will spawn as long as population limit has not been reached?

I'm guessing this happens late game. If so the offending line is probably:
iDecayMod = 111 - (iGTurn * iTurnMod)

When (iGTurn * iTurnMod) > 111, iDecayMod becomes negative and the entire spawn chance is multiplied by a negative number.


A minimum chance would probably make sense, but in the mean time, pursue spawn boosters more aggressively. I think intention is that you should reach maximum spawn population before that happens.

Thanks - a minimum will be set for the decay mod.

I'd guess odalrick is also correct about the Ghostwalker's Creeper-feeding.

I think Ghostwalker's inability to stop once a HL tile has started is an unavoidable part of the delayed-spell code.

Anyone know otherwise? And what do you guys think of the 8 turn delay? I think something needs to be done to keep a Ghostwalker from creating 1 HL tile/turn, and that the other easy restriction - gold - doesn't make sense. Other ideas on how to do it?

Feeding Creepers costs some experience. Probably the walker doesn't have enough.

Yep, that was it. It consumes 3xp. Thank you.

I'm guessing this happens late game.

I guess that would depend on what you thought of as late game. *winks* I noted that with another post I made when I was talking about going into turn 152. I think my late game must come much later than most others.

I guess that would depend on what you thought of as late game. *winks* I noted that with another post I made when I was talking about going into turn 152. I think my late game must come much later than most others.

Well, for me turn 150 about the end of the early game. ;)

However in the context of negative spawn chance, what I meant with late game depends on game speed. Or more accurately, what the game reports as the estimated end turn. I don't know enough about game speed to be accurate.

Is time victory affected by map size?

In a short game, I guess 'late game' would be after turn 111. Then in ascending order, turn 222, 444, 672 or 888. If the switch isn't right after one of those turns, it may indicate another bug.

Well, for me turn 150 about the end of the early game. ;)

However in the context of negative spawn chance, what I meant with late game depends on game speed. Or more accurately, what the game reports as the estimated end turn. I don't know enough about game speed to be accurate.

Is time victory affected by map size?

In a short game, I guess 'late game' would be after turn 111. Then in ascending order, turn 222, 444, 672 or 888. If the switch isn't right after one of those turns, it may indicate another bug.

I think the time for victory is heavily influenced by map size. I tend to play on huge maps with a lot of civs, sometimes upwards of 25 to 30 to start. Even on quick speed, turn 150 is just starting to get the nations established, maybe a handful got picked off early, the various religions are getting started and the first major, long term wars are getting started. If it's on quick, I may be pushing to Feudalism by this point so I can vassal the one or two AI civs that were stupid enough to start a war with me.

Bump: A couple of fixes disinterred from the bug thread and added to the first post.

The civ is a great fun to play! I think I will also become a Scion sympathiser :goodjob:

I want to ask, with the release of 0.44 announced for this weekend, have some minor issues concerning scions(like, for example, all new units on hunted land becoming spooked, and even when upgrading on hunted lands, they become spooked, end even creepers becoming spooked) been addressed?

Also, how many times should I cast mend nature to have a forest tile become hunted with a revenant?

I want to ask, with the release of 0.44 announced for this weekend, have some minor issues concerning scions(like, for example, all new units on hunted land becoming spooked, and even when upgrading on hunted lands, they become spooked, end even creepers becoming spooked) been addressed?

I'm glad that you mentioned that, because now that you've mentioned it will be. (I'm pretty sure it's been brought up before, but I forgot to fix all of it.)


Also, how many times should I cast mend nature to have a forest tile become hunted with a revenant?

No set # of times - there's a 1/4 chance with each casting.

EDIT: Just checked the spooked, etc. thing - think it's working:

HL shouldn't be created in cities, and you shouldn't pick up those detrimental HL promotions if you're within your own borders. I think those together will keep newly created units

EDIT #2: Whoops. Some problems remain. Working on it...

I'm glad that you mentioned that, because now that you've mentioned it will be. (I'm pretty sure it's been brought up before, but I forgot to fix all of it.)


This is why I post it ;).


No set # of times - there's a 1/4 chance with each casting.


This explains why sometimes it did work :)


EDIT: Just checked the spooked, etc. thing - think it's working:

HL shouldn't be created in cities, and you shouldn't pick up those detrimental HL promotions if you're within your own borders. I think those together will keep newly created units


Wouldn't be better if Scion's units were just immune to Eldritch energies, just like Korina? Since the +1 Movement is really usefull when all squares are HL, having HL not able to affect city squares, would create calculation problems when moving units... Not to mention the +1 gold that is now applied to cities with HL :).

In addition HL goes well with the Necropolis building..doesn't it?

Wouldn't be better if Scion's units were just immune to Eldritch energies, just like Korina?

With xienwolf's help I think this is finally sorted. (And exceptions should be easy to fix.)

Ghostwalkers, Haunts, and the Black Lady can also guide other units through the Haunted Lands, avoiding the "Eldritch" effects.


In addition HL goes well with the Necropolis building..doesn't it?

Well... while the Haunted Lands of course have their good side it can be very hard to live the Good (un)Life if your favorite book malevolently changes its ending, or if your favorite reading chair develops a daily schedule incompatible with your own.

With xienwolf's help I think this is finally sorted. (And exceptions should be easy to fix.)

Ghostwalkers, Haunts, and the Black Lady can also guide other units through the Haunted Lands, avoiding the "Eldritch" effects.



This sounds great!


Well... while the Haunted Lands of course have their good side it can be very hard to live the Good (un)Life if your favorite book malevolently changes its ending, or if your favorite reading chair develops a daily schedule incompatible with your own.

Yes, you are right. :)

Was just about to complain about the lack of a spawn chance notifier, until I noticed the little Awakened icon attached to the mana display.... Very nice. :goodjob:

Playing the Scions for the first time, and really enjoying them.

One question - what do the creepers summoned buy Korrina the Black do? They appear to 'degrade' into various other types of creepers, which eventually stop being able to move. I also noticed that they can build mana nodes and cast a 'burr' spell, but I can't find any documentation on them and can't work out what to do with them. Anyone know?

One question - what do the creepers summoned buy Korrina the Black do?

I'll put this on the first page, too:

Creepers: Wounded or destroyed Ghostwalkers can create Creepers, as can Korrina the Black. Creepers are also generated within the Haunted Lands. The breeding season depends on several arcane factors and isn't entirely predictable - but it is regular and is adjusted by Game Speed.

Creeper life-cycle:

Creepers are Free units, can move in Rival territory without Open Borders, are Defensive Only, 15% withdraw, 2 strength - Poison.

Stages - Creepers vary in appearance and abilities.

Young - lasts 20 turns - No change from stats above.
Mature - 25 turns - Can cast "Arawn's Dust" spell.
Blooming - 15 turns - Defensive Strikes, can cast "Burrowing Thorns"
Rooted - 20+ turns - Can't move, Defensive Strikes more powerful, +4 strength
Dying - Rooted Creeper dies and spawns 2, sometimes 3, Young Creepers.

Any Young, Mature or Blooming Creeper that survives a combat remains sated with blood for 30 turns and may transform itself into a Haunted Lands Feature within that time.

Wow! This is very good! I didn't notice that in 0.43, weird. I'll be sure to check it now!

By the way, a spider managed to bring down my Red lady, which had combat V at the time, in my own territory...People, beware of the animals!! :lol:

Wow! This is very good! I didn't notice that in 0.43, weird. I'll be sure to check it now!

All of that Creeper stuff is new to 050.

Well, not that the Black Lady summoned them...

EDIT:
Added some documentation for Horned Dread to the first post. IIRC it's the only new Scion unit - a Beastmaster UU.


Horned Dread.

An incarnation of the Haunted Lands, the Horned Dread is a powerful fighter so strange and terrifying that Courage is forgotten.

Replaces Beastmaster. Once present the Horned Dread manifest through any Ghostwalker, anywhere on the map, but only one at a time. And only a Ghostwalker of the 6th level or above may first manifest the Horned Dread. If all Ghostwalkers are destroyed another high-level Ghostwalker must again "first" manifest the Horned Dread. About as powerful as a Beastmaster, but its spell "Terrify" can make temporarily make most units incapable of attack.

The info for the Spirit Mill is wrong in the first post.

Also, the new version of the Spirit Mill is VASTLY weaker than the Brewing House it replaces, giving +1 happy in one city instead of +1 happy in all cities and a new trade resource. Anything that can be done about this?

It seems I did not manage to post the python error before the B patch release...Nevermind, I'll have to wait until patch C. It does not seem to break the game though.

The following screenshot is of a python error occuring when I cast haunted lands with a creeper. This happens every time I cast this spell. I have only casted in on hills, so far, however, so I do not know if this has something to do with it.

I post it here, because it is Scions specific. If you wish I would rather post it in the FF bug thread, please tell me and I will do it for any future bug for Scions.

The info for the Spirit Mill is wrong in the first post.

Also, the new version of the Spirit Mill is VASTLY weaker than the Brewing House it replaces, giving +1 happy in one city instead of +1 happy in all cities and a new trade resource. Anything that can be done about this?

A "1" moved from 1 line to another. :) Anybody else want the S.M. boosted? I liked giving the Scions a cut in happiness, but I'm fine with moving the happiness to global - and tossing in a trade route. (I need to boost the trade route modifiers in general.)

It seems I did not manage to post the python error before the B patch release...

Which is too bad, because its basically the same bug as reported for Mend Nature and I've already uploaded a fix. :)

The startwar function changed and I both missed many spells, or, for the ones I caught, my adaptation was bugged. I think it's sorted now, though, and should be fine in the next patch.

Hmm... The bug thread's probably a better place.

A "1" moved from 1 line to another. :) Anybody else want the S.M. boosted? I liked giving the Scions a cut in happiness, but I'm fine with moving the happiness to global - and tossing in a trade route. (I need to boost the trade route modifiers in general.)


Since it is a national wonder, I think it should give a bonus to the whole civ.


Which is too bad, because its basically the same bug as reported for Mend Nature and I've already uploaded a fix. :)

The startwar function changed and I both missed many spells, or, for the ones I caught, my adaptation was bugged. I think it's sorted now, though, and should be fine in the next patch.


That's great! Thanks!

Hmm... The bug thread's probably a better place.
OK.

A "1" moved from 1 line to another. :) Anybody else want the S.M. boosted? I liked giving the Scions a cut in happiness, but I'm fine with moving the happiness to global - and tossing in a trade route. (I need to boost the trade route modifiers in general.)

The other option would be to return it's previous function of happy for livestock resources to it. That way it would be a fairly hefty happy booster for one city, but only one city.

The potential downside of that is that it then heavily encourages you to put your capital by the riverside, so maybe a global happy would be better.

Either works. I'd also be happy with the Spirit Mill being an improvement for each city... it'd serve the same purpose, but only for riverside cities... The commerce bit might be too much then.

It'd be nice to have some reason not to trade away all my food resources to allies, though. As it is they just give me extra happy through trade.

Ok More Scion questions.

Firstly, at some point my Awaken-percentage just disapeared, and refused to return. This would have been unfortunate, but even worse no more awaken awoke, so I had to abandon the game. Did I do something wrong, or could it be a bug? (I have a save).

Secondly, Alcaris (sp?) the hero wizard went mad (again) and I killed him; luckily he was reborn, but in the Sheam capital instead of the Scion one. This has to be a bug. (I have a save).

Thirdly, are there any negative aspect to unhealthiness for the Scions?

Awakened stop spawning at a certain population threshhold. you can make up for that by building cathederals of rebirth and using those to build reborn/True pilgrims.

The mage hero is supposted to occasionally be reborn in other civs. You need to go hunt him down and kill him for a chance for him to return to you. The Emperor's dagger UU has a spell that ensures he returns to you and makes him Hidden Nationality

Unhealthiness will reduce the Production produced by the city for each one, and at over 4 you get 2 unhappy and -2 culture

Ok More Scion questions.

Firstly, at some point my Awaken-percentage just disapeared, and refused to return. This would have been unfortunate, but even worse no more awaken awoke, so I had to abandon the game. Did I do something wrong, or could it be a bug? (I have a save).

Secondly, Alcaris (sp?) the hero wizard went mad (again) and I killed him; luckily he was reborn, but in the Sheam capital instead of the Scion one. This has to be a bug. (I have a save).

Thirdly, are there any negative aspect to unhealthiness for the Scions?

There is a limit to the number of spawned Awakened, and I would assume you hit that limit. Past that point, any population must be either built or taken through combat.

Alcinus is mad, and while killing him settles his mind again, it does not ALWAYS restore him to the Scions. There is a unique assassin which is able to attack him whether at war or not, and will always return him to your civ.

Unhealthiness can cause unhappiness if you have too much. I believe it starts at 3 unhealth past the cap.

Edit: Damn, beat to it. ;)

Thank you both - great info.

Ok, time for the Shrine of the Champion "fug" to go. I don't remember it activating for Alcinus, but it is now.

Really a "balance" issue, but Scions specific:

I find it odd to have desert hills produce 1 less hammer for the Scions. The desert shouldn't be that much of a bother to them. What do you guys think of having the 1 hammer penalty lifted? Maybe just for desert mines?

I was also thinking about slowing down their cottage transformation rate.

You know, I think Civ IV is the first version of civ that hasn't had deserts produce one shield/hammer. I can't think of any reason not to simply increase desert yield to 1 :hammers:. Malakim would get a little benefit from desert, for everyone else working deserts is just like assigning a citizen specialist.

Early mid-game all worked desert becomes transformed to plains anyway. In theory.


Specifically for scions though, it bothers me that grassland is basically the same worthless wasteland that tundra, snow or currently desert is. Why not make all terrain types equivalent to plains for scions?

Specifically for scions though, it bothers me that grassland is basically the same worthless wasteland that tundra, snow or currently desert is. Why not make all terrain types equivalent to plains for scions?

That'd be very nice for the Scions. Maybe too nice?

Ideally we'd change things so that plains hills aren't GREAT for Scions, at the same time making desert/tundra not mysteriously poor.

A general hammers boost would seem to make sense, as would slowing down Cottage growth. Might be tricky to balance. Could be too hard a shove toward warmongering, or just economically crippling.

I could see Scions favoring the less hospitible terrain types, though. Maybe make desert/tundra like plains, and plains/grassland like grassland?

*grumble* I'll I really want is 1 more hammer per desert. :)

Early mid-game all worked desert becomes transformed to plains anyway. In theory.

Yep. Come to think of it, I see novelty value as a good reason to give Scions the hammer boost. Picking up Elementalism and a Spring Adept certainly has costs associated with it, but when I've got significant desert territory it's a not much of a decision. Especially when not playing Scions. Give Scions the extra hammer earlier and they can skip the Spring routine.

I could see Scions favoring the less hospitible terrain types, though. Maybe make desert/tundra like plains, and plains/grassland like grassland?

*grumble* I'll I really want is 1 more hammer per desert. :)



Yep. Come to think of it, I see novelty value as a good reason to give Scions the hammer boost. Picking up Elementalism and a Spring Adept certainly has costs associated with it, but when I've got significant desert territory it's a not much of a decision. Especially when not playing Scions. Give Scions the extra hammer earlier and they can skip the Spring routine.

Not sure that it's needed - the Scions are already fairly flexible in where they can settle (not having the food requirement that almost all other civs have), so it's largely upto the player to find places that can be worked profitably. They can put workshops on every "useless" grassland tile if they want hammers, can already build in deserts more successfully than most civs etc... I don't think the base terrain needs to (or thematically would) favour them anymore than it would any other civilization.

The novelty could be the not caring at all about the base terrain. Most civs like grassland, Illians like snow, some civs have less intimate relationship with terrains, but they still favour them. Scions just don't care, snow, sand, tiny green lifeforms... it's all the same.

It wouldn't be any more of a push towards war than starting in a plains area right now.

Something else has been bothering me slightly: Elder Councils. Exactly who is it that isn't an elder in the early game? Sort of the opposite problem of Calabim.

You could replace Elder Council with, for instance, Ancient Residents. Have it give -20% military production and maybe some advantage. Scion elders are more elder than anyone else's, and with a reminder of the vast lifespans possible with the gift people are less likely to sign up for military service.

That should remove any early push to war that increased production gives. With the low population I always spam Elder Councils, Markets and any other buildings that grants increased commerce. Maybe you wouldn't build it in the military production city, but that city is likely to benefit the least from all-terrain scions anyway.

Or is it possible to attach a global -20% military production to the scion palace? Long "lived" inhabitants are reluctant to risk their existence in the military, and I don't think scions would hurt much from having fewer units.


edit:

Vehem is right in that there is no need for a desert boost for scions. It would mostly be a flavour issue; scion lands remain in their pristine condition, unlike every other civ that either terraforms everything to plains and grassland or avoids the place altogether.

I have played the Scions for the first time with FF-50 and my thoughts so far:

I think they are excellent and great fun, but I have some comments (bear in mind that I play Epic Speed, Small map, and tend to win before I get any Tier 4 units).

-I worked out (finally) that I had to get sun mana and scorch all tiles to plains to get the best use out of the cities. This is FAR from obvious considering that I had been avoiding sun for roleplaying reasons.

-In my case, it took far too long to have the option to create haunted lands, so I won the game with a single haunted tile. Seems like a shame considering the amount of things you can do with them. If there is no method other than the Black Kyli-creepers method to get these in the early game, perhaps another should be thought up.

-Population cap for Awakening to wake. Irritating. I spent so much time getting all the close patrician artefacts and luxuries, but by the time they were all hooked up I had reached my (small world because of my computer) Pop Max. And that was it. Could the chance not be reduced by a factor of 10 rather than completely removed? – It was so sad when the Awaken refused to come out (In my case, both times I played, something like a 10 capital city, two other 3 cities and three 1 cities). Related to this point is…

-I only realised on the very last turn that if I razed a city (and does it even raise the Armageddon Count?) I get free reborn – lots of them. Perhaps this should be mentioned at the top of the thread because if I had known this I would have had a completely different strategy and would have spent less time on patrician artefacts (unfortunately a complete waste of time) and more time razing.

Hope the comments are helpful. I’m sure I got everything wrong with the Scions, but I still love them.

One comment about the desert production question - deserts seem like they would be much harder to mine, whether the workers are alive or not. They don't need food, but I imagine the Scion workers wouldn't like sand in their britches any more than we do.

-I worked out (finally) that I had to get sun mana and scorch all tiles to plains to get the best use out of the cities. This is FAR from obvious considering that I had been avoiding sun for roleplaying reasons.


I didn't even know sun can scorch to plain. I thought it was plains to desert only.


-I only realised on the very last turn that if I razed a city (and does it even raise the Armageddon Count?) I get free reborn – lots of them.

There is a tech requirement for reborn from razing, so early game resources and buildings are the way to go.

It is all explained in the civopedia under Fall from Heaven concepts, but the first time you play them it may not be that easy to find. Maybe the dawn of man text should point in that direction for the scions.

The novelty could be the not caring at all about the base terrain. ... Scions just don't care, snow, sand, tiny green lifeforms... it's all the same.

Yep. And I liked the point about not terraforming.


Vehem is right in that there is no need for a desert boost for scions. It would mostly be a flavour issue;

Definitely.


You could replace Elder Council with, for instance, Ancient Residents.

Good idea.


Have it give -20% military production and maybe some advantage.

I like the idea that it'd be something you wouldn't really want in every city.


Or is it possible to attach a global -20% military production to the scion palace?

I'm not sure. If so it's worth thinking about. They already tend toward fewer/better units anyway.

-I worked out (finally) that I had to get sun mana and scorch all tiles to plains to get the best use out of the cities. This is FAR from obvious considering that I had been avoiding sun for roleplaying reasons.

Heh. Just the sort of thing we're talking about. It is esp. unfortunate that it's *Sun* mana that's so handy. Sun and Water - two things the undead traditionally often avoid rather than seek.


-In my case, it took far too long to have the option to create haunted lands,

Yeah - I often don't see them much either. :(. As far as I'm concerned it'd be worth cutting their bonus in say, half, but allowing them in quite a bit earlier.

An easy change would be removal of Necromancy as a requirement from the Ghostwalker spell, along with a reducing on the time the spell takes. But I'm not sure if that'd translate into getting HL significantly earlier.


-Population cap for Awakening to wake. Irritating. I spent so much time getting all the close patrician artefacts and luxuries, but by the time they were all hooked up I had reached my (small world because of my computer) Pop Max. And that was it. Could the chance not be reduced by a factor of 10 rather than completely removed?

The need to shift gears is very much by design. OTOH a greatly reduced rate wouldn't really hurt.


-I only realised on the very last turn that if I razed a city (and does it even raise the Armageddon Count?) I get free reborn – lots of them. Perhaps this should be mentioned at the top of the thread

It's in the "Gaining Population" section under "Reborn". I'll revise the section, though, to make it easier to catch.


Hope the comments are helpful. I’m sure I got everything wrong with the Scions, but I still love them.

Thanks. There's certainly something of a learning curve but it sounds like you've figured out most of it already. :)

They don't need food, but I imagine the Scion workers wouldn't like sand in their britches any more than we do.

Good point. They're supposed to love their comforts.

I didn't even know sun can scorch to plain. I thought it was plains to desert only.

Unless you edit the CvSpellInterface.py, you can not scorch grassland to plains. Relatively easy change, however.

Unless you edit the CvSpellInterface.py, you can not scorch grassland to plains. Relatively easy change, however.

FF allows it. And then Plains to Desert - just tried it to make sure.

And looked at the Spellinterface - almost missed it, but there is an "or" allowing Marsh or Grass to go to Plains. :)

FF allows it. And then Plains to Desert - just tried it to make sure.

And looked at the Spellinterface - almost missed it, but there is an "or" allowing Marsh or Grass to go to Plains. :)

Ah, you're right.... I completely missed that lol. Guess I no longer need my own version of the spell allowing Lightbringers to do just that... :lol:

In the first post, God King still claims to give a spawn rate bonus. In game, however, it does not seem to, and I thought I saw something in the changelog about that being taken out.

Of course, I've already made my arguments about why that bonus SHOULD be there (The Risen Emperor IS a God-King, worship of the Gift and the Emperor is supposed to draw the Awakened out, having God King be a useful civic past the very early game is nice, etc.), but at the very least the first page should reflect what is actually going on. :)

In the first post, God King still claims to give a spawn rate bonus. In game, however, it does not seem to, and I thought I saw something in the changelog about that being taken out.

Thanks. Corrected, and the correction should be in the pedia as of the next patch.


Of course, I've already made my arguments...

I remember. :) They're a large part of why God King get its new, later-game, advantages: True Pilgrims, and Scions keep more population from a captured city if they're using God King. (The Awakened, according to this new version, are more concerned with whats in it for *them*. They like Aristocracy.)

Are the Scions supposed to rock the house that hard? I mean I play on Noble and while all AI players get about 300-400 points I already have 965 points. All of 8 my cities are at least at pop 5 (one at 8) and even though I don't have that great deal of military strength none of them dares to offend me. Heck, the Sheaim are the only ones who tend to go to war against me and they don't even have pyre zombies. Did I have a lucky round where everything went well or are Scions really that strong?

are Scions really that overpowered?

And the answer is yes, they are. :P

Since you're playing at Noble, I'd venture a guess that you simply learned enough to outperform the AI.

At Monarch, I have yet to finish a game with the Scions. I do not think they are overpowered...

At Monarch, I have yet to finish a game with the Scions. I do not think they are overpowered...

Do you normally finish your games?
And
Do you mean just not finishing, or you're getting wiped out/the AI is beating you to victory?

To me, the scions have very powerful benefits with very few offsets.

I'd like them to be balanced, and despite speculation to the contrary I don't try to make them unbalanced. However, I generally play on Immortal and I generally win when I don't play the Scions. When I play the Scions I play on Immortal and I generally win - seems about the same to me.

So I pretty much have to go off feedback. I've made a lot of balance adjustments in the past, and I plan on making more in the future. However, I do want more than "I think X is OP." before making a change, especially if there's no discussion about it among posters here.

A couple of things to keep in mind:

An adjustment to the spawning-rate for difficulty-level is pretty new and I've had little or no feedback on it. That's the first place to look IMO.

Map Script/settings can have a big influence on the Scions. Imagine an all hills/plains map, for example. Well, the closer to that map, the better the Scions will do. Some scripts get closer than others. Number of resources could be another big influence: The setting that doubles the # of resources tilts things toward Scions.

I'd like them to be balanced, and despite speculation to the contrary I don't try to make them unbalanced.

Really? The patrian bazaar and their immunity to Armageddon implies otherwise to me.

Of course, talking about Armageddon, can you tell me what the point of this second part of code is:

if (pPlayer.hasTrait(gc.getInfoTypeForString('TRAIT_F ALLOW')) == False and pPlayer.getCivilizationType() != gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_SCIONS')):


If the aim was to make Scions immune to Armageddon pop decrease: They already were due to Fallow, thus the second part is needless.

If the aim was to make Scions affected by Armageddon pop decrease: You've coded it wrong, they're still unaffected by it. Using "or" if the civ was Scions is what should have been used. You may go test if you don't believe me, their cities won't be affected by the pop decrease at 100 AC.

On the matter of balancing, is Korinna balanced against the emperor?

The Emperor gets his own personalized religion, Charismatic, Arcane, Creative-lite, reborn from combat and his choice of two heroes, one of which is immortal.

Korrinna gets reduced spawn rate and not much else...

At least let her build Legates.

Korinna can adopt a religion, which makes a huge difference. Also, the Risen Emperor is a ridiculously powerful hero.

I do tend to play as the Emperor, but my friend swears by Korinna. I think they both have their strengths and weaknesses. One of my favorite things about the Scions is that they are almost two different civs.

Exactly what is the big advantage of adopting a religion?

Granted, late game, priests upgraded to redactors are solid, but is there anything more?

Some extra happiness? More food from forests?

I'm not saying it's not an advantage, but is it big enough to balance the lowered pop?

I've been trying to play a few games to get a feeling for their relative strength, but with the patches and the psychotic AI, I haven't been able to compare them.

Being forced down the arcane line (without being arcane as well) and the drama line and the priest line... Seems like a huge penalty.

Religions give you access to their heroes, their related techs (Arete, Demonic Pact, et al) and make your citizens happy which is the real popcap for Scions.

The Scions' randomness can make them very powerful or very not, depending on how you're doing. I had a long period where I just didn't get any Awakened thanks to the RNG (I mean about 75 or more turns of just getting NO freaking poppoints/settlers) and my growth stagnated as I got new technologies with new units costing more Hammers but not having the pop to build them at any great speed. This actually enabled one of my AI enemies to take some land I'd cleared out with Korinna from a war, and grow all big and angry at me.

Part of the reasons Scions feel overpowered right now (in Patch E currently) is that the AI in Fall Further has just been really anemic lately. Something's wrong with the difficulty settings at this rate, I think. I had Redactors, said massive AI that had about half the island was still protecting herself with unupgraded Freaks and Scouts. And this was after that long lull where I got no awakened and had really bad production/research. It feels like the AI has been given a lobotomy, and the Scions are pretty powerful in the hands of a human player because despite the randomness of Awakened/Reborn, the ability to put cities where you want with no regard for food or for pop caps beyond happiness lets you do interesting things.

I can't decide whether Korninna the Red is really strong or not, myself. I think in my current game I just upgraded her well, and the fact that she got a Mana Flare mutation giving her Strong/Blitz/Poison Resistant/Cannibalize probably had a lot to do with it.

On the subject of heroes, does anyone ever actually create the Dark Council? The benefits I saw from it didn't outweigh having the Artful Governor, the Diplomat-Guy of Pop-Stealing, and the Ultimate Scoutguy running around. (Though I have never been able to do anything but found the Keep with the Mage before he runs off to go be utterly psychotic.)

And lastly - When my Korinna got mutated, she was still shackled, and somehow she ended up with two copies of enraged, not one, enabling her to run around and beat the everloving crap out of a barbarian skeleton sitting on a barrows outside my town.

Really? The patrian bazaar and their immunity to Armageddon implies otherwise to me.

The first was changed as soon as it was mentioned in the forum.
I was going to change it anyway after finally seeing how it behaved in-game - I'd greatly over-corrected.

The second I also changed as soon as it was mentioned.

There was no provision for Scions previously simply because I'd never had a AC 100 game with the Scions and assumed the Infernal exception looked for the Infernal civ, not the trait.

However, I made a mistake. Yes, that happens. I got confused by the negative (looking for "False") and when I saw that Scion units were getting hit I stopped testing.

However, later that day, after realizing I could and should hit Undead Scion units too, I changed the function again. I think I mentioned that in the thread. I caught the bug then but I wouldn't have minded being told of it earlier.

You seem to have drawn your own conclusion, but what all that implies to me is simply that I need help balancing (and making) the civ.

A big "Thanks!" to everyone who's been giving bug reports, making suggestions, etc.: It's not just helpful, it's essential.

Some questions:

Should Alcinus have his "turn barbarian" per/turn chance lowered?

Should it be easier to get Emperor's Daggers for those occasions when Alcinus goes AWOL?

***********

On the matter of balancing, is Korinna balanced against the emperor?

Good question - In the early days of the mod some major imbalances were eliminated, but I haven't looked into it for quite awhile.


At least let her build Legates.

Since the Legates are tied to the national religion I'd rather give her a spawn boost (or just remove the penalty).

(OTOH, Legates can be fun. OTOOH, its nice to have the mechanics for each leader be so different.)


Being forced down the arcane line (without being arcane as well) and the drama line and the priest line... Seems like a huge penalty.

I like Arcane Lore... but that's been suggested before - maybe it's time to do it. Somewhere in the religious line?

Anybody else?

Korinna can adopt a religion, which makes a huge difference. Also, the Risen Emperor is a ridiculously powerful hero.

Too ridiculously powerful? Early-version Chalid or late Chalid? :)

Seriously though - I almost never play as Korrina and I'm not sure I've ever built the Emperor in a real game.


Religions give you access to their heroes, their related techs (Arete, Demonic Pact, et al) and make your citizens happy which is the real popcap for Scions.

How much do you see even happiness as a limit outside your capital?

One idea I've been kicking around is giving them the Extravagant Trait (from Saints and Sinners): Need 2 of any luxury resource for a +1. I probably would have tried it awhile ago if I could do it myself.


I can't decide whether Korninna the Red is really strong or not, myself.

I've been getting her lately and she does indeed seem *quite* strong. It's been too long since I've played another civ (I've only had about 3 Scion games since 044) - I don't remember just how tough heroes are supposed to be.

I'll have to look at her again - I think it might be that while she's otherwise decently balanced for the tech required her pre-Red Lady xps make her too powerful.


I think in my current game I just upgraded her well, and the fact that she got a Mana Flare mutation giving her Strong/Blitz/Poison Resistant/Cannibalize probably had a lot to do with it.

Well, yeah. :)


On the subject of heroes, does anyone ever actually create the Dark Council? The benefits I saw from it didn't outweigh having the Artful Governor, the Diplomat-Guy of Pop-Stealing, and the Ultimate Scoutguy running around.

Just making sure: You're aware they they aren't "used up" making the Dark Council?


And lastly - When my Korinna got mutated, she was still shackled, and somehow she ended up with two copies of enraged, not one, enabling her to run around and beat the everloving crap out of a barbarian skeleton sitting on a barrows outside my town.

Which patch, and did you have Knowledge of the Ether?

Oh yeah - I've resolved the Shrine of the Champion situation by banning the Scions from building it. Ever. It's simple. :)
And: "A dead hero that's not, like, coming back? How is that worthy of reverence? Even in death I serve the Emperor."

Religions give you access to their heroes, their related techs (Arete, Demonic Pact, et al) and make your citizens happy which is the real popcap for Scions.

How the heck do you make happy cap be limiting for the scions?

For me the only thing that limits my cities is population. For a brief moment I might case a little about health, when a city is next to a lot of flood plains or jungle, but well or a health resource finally connected eliminates that. Then the Necropolis eliminates that.

Happy never matters, especially since I aggressively go after luxuries to get population.

And, there are some nice things about religions. But population is power.

There was no provision for Scions previously simply because I'd never had a AC 100 game with the Scions and assumed the Infernal exception looked for the Infernal civ, not the trait.


Fair enough, it is an oddity :P, *but* shouldn't one of you guys have looked over the code before releasing and realised?

Or shouldn't it have come up in testing at least? I understand that you ran games on autoplay, did you not run any with the intention making the AC go to 100 to check it worked correctly? Although the autoplay feature is nice, it should/can not replace manual testing.

Since the Legates are tied to the national religion I'd rather give her a spawn boost (or just remove the penalty).

(OTOH, Legates can be fun. OTOOH, its nice to have the mechanics for each leader be so different.)

I like Arcane Lore... but that's been suggested before - maybe it's time to do it. Somewhere in the religious line?


Removing the penalty might be good. (As would some guarantees that awakened will spawn, but that's another discussion.)

I feel that the low population, with no player action available to raise it, makes Korinnas early game too weak.

A weak early game is ok, but too weak isn't.

I like the emperor at arcane lore, though.

Just something to take the edge off the early game.


Oh yeah - I've resolved the Shrine of the Champion situation by banning the Scions from building it. Ever. It's simple. :)
And: "A dead hero that's not, like, coming back? How is that worthy of reverence? Even in death I serve the Emperor."

Well, the heroes come back for other civs even if they have been interred in the Shrine of the Champion. And you get to keep the shrine as well.

Although the autoplay feature is nice, it should/can not replace manual testing.

What do you think you are doing, when you play?

What do you think you are doing, when you play?

Okay, I'll re-phrase. :P

Major bugs such as the one with the Svartalfar settler should have been picked up by the team *before* someone had to report it. Same applies to the missing text keys, it should take no more than 10/15 minutes to go through the pedia and check for missing entries.

Okay, I'll re-phrase. :P

Major bugs such as the one with the Svartalfar settler should have been picked up by the team *before* someone had to report it. Same applies to the missing text keys, it should take no more than 10/15 minutes to go through the pedia and check for missing entries.

But then it will take longer for them to release stuff ect
just consider yourself a beta tester untill around patch H or something :D

But then it will take longer for them to release stuff ect

Ah, but would you rather have a buggy mod now, or wait an extra month for a more bug free version?

@Methuselah,

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think your tone is somewhat over-critical.

The team makes this mod for free, we didn't pay for it. Stuff happens and I'm sure the teams (FfH2 and FF) would love everything to be perfect at release. The countless permutations make it very difficult to catch things; you make a change and don't realize it impacts something else that was working.

So, in a sense, we all participate in creating the mod through bug reporting and suggestions.

Each passing patch makes the game better overall (well except patch D, that was a nightmare for me. :lol: ).

Ah, but would you rather have a buggy mod now, or wait an extra month for a more bug free version?

Why not both?

If you want a bug free mod, wait a month. And because they released early, there will be fewer bugs sooner.

@Methuselah,

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think your tone is somewhat over-critical.


I guess, but I figured it'd be more useful than everyone going "yes I like this mod 100% no problems." :P

And while yes it is hard to catch the rare/obscure bugs and such, the Svartalfar settling a city shouldn't have slipped through really, should it?

And while yes it is hard to catch the rare/obscure bugs and such, the Svartalfar settling a city shouldn't have slipped through really, should it?

I agree with you in principle and if this was a professional, payed for effort, rather unacceptable. I blew it off since I don't play the Svartalfar and dialed them out of the game at set-up.

Anyway, it was quickly fixed, in the end.

Do you normally finish your games?
And
Do you mean just not finishing, or you're getting wiped out/the AI is beating you to victory?

To me, the scions have very powerful benefits with very few offsets.

In FF .50 I have problems with unrecoverable MAFs so far with the scions. I didn't feel like playing something else in FF until I finish a game with the Scions. When things got interesting, mid game, able to spawn reborns, AI pissed off at me and everyone starting to declare war on me, on .43, .50 came out and I wan't able to see what would happen. I did not feel overpoweredl at the point, at least not as much as with Amurites in FFH2, where at the same point I have usually dominated the Map.


On the subject of heroes, does anyone ever actually create the Dark Council? The benefits I saw from it didn't outweigh having the Artful Governor, the Diplomat-Guy of Pop-Stealing, and the Ultimate Scoutguy running around. (Though I have never been able to do anything but found the Keep with the Mage before he runs off to go be utterly psychotic.)


The counsil is better to have it than not. I have created it and it is better than nothing.

Happiness is the pop cap for Scions in a single city, since you cannot add a new pop if you have not enough happiness there.

I try to populate the capital as much as possible, to keep my spawning rate decent. It seems there is no real benefit to run Aristocracy, since the unique units you get, come with God King. So, I do not run aristocracy, since Scions cannot build farms, and the +2 gold this civic gives is nullified.

I have never played Korina, since she does not have arcane and I prefer Arcane civs. When I finish a Scions game with the Emperor, I will try it, though.

I agree that it should be a whole different civ with Korina, religion is a significant factor in this mod. Not to mention the possible diplomatic benefits with AI civs.

I was not happy with the bazaar nerf, but I can live with it :).

I would prefer if that mad wizard had his chance to go mad reduced. It is a little pain to babysit him, but its OK as a negative sideeffect. I think he is unique in this aspect.

What I like about scions are their uniqueness. It is like no other civ. It was a great idea implementing them, and, as already mentioned, it is actually two civs. I really do not feel them overpowered, and as soon as I get rid of those MAFs, I will be able to give more propper feedback.

Good job Tarquelne. Keep it up.:goodjob:

For me the only thing that limits my cities is population. For a brief moment I might case a little about health, when a city is next to a lot of flood plains or jungle, but well or a health resource finally connected eliminates that. Then the Necropolis eliminates that.

Speaking of Flood Plains, I have noticed that they REALLY suck for the Scions. I only just got into trying out Haunted Lands (not a tech path I've explored before), and I've realized that Flood Plains can never be haunted. Desert you can use spring to turn into plains; however, Flood Plains are immune to spring. Is this an intentional balance point or an oversight? As is, Flood Plains will never be anything other than a 1c tile at base; there is no way to terraform them to anything better.

It seems there is no real benefit to run Aristocracy, since the unique units you get, come with God King. So, I do not run aristocracy, since Scions cannot build farms, and the +2 gold this civic gives is nullified.

Sounds like you're aware, but just to make sure:

Aristocracy gives a +40% bonus to spawning.
You can build farms on grain resources.

As is, Flood Plains will never be anything other than a 1c tile at base; there is no way to terraform them to anything better.

Intentional balance point: The destruction of another civ's flood plains seemed to powerful. I also like how a normally desirable terrain is much less so for the Scions, but the main thing was avoiding the destruction of someone else's fps.

I could probably allow HL to replace flood plains within Scion borders if it'd be an improvement.


I only just got into trying out Haunted Lands (not a tech path I've explored before),

That's something I keep meaning to ask about...

Question for everyone: Are there tech paths you strongly favor for the Scions? Or are several attractive? Any you think that should be more attractive?

Sounds like you're aware, but just to make sure:

Aristocracy gives a +40% bonus to spawning.
You can build farms on grain resources.

Sure a 40% over 5.6% is approx a +2%. Not a big deal if I am to sacrifice the 50% production and commerce.

And, Grain resources appear on grasslands. I tend to avoid having grasslands in my city radious because they are useless...

So, I do not run aristocracy, since Scions cannot build farms, and the +2 gold this civic gives is nullified.


You also get quite a bit of happiness from the training buildings, as well as reducing maintenance... Makes it worth it early-midgame for me. I do tend to switch over to godking once I have to start cranking out reborn, but the benefits for aristocracy in the early game are fine.

Question for everyone: Are there tech paths you strongly favor for the Scions? Or are several attractive? Any you think that should be more attractive?

The way it is, you must follow four different paths in order to get some significant units and the heroes. Hunting and Tracking are a must to get ghostwalkers and be able to creat haunted lands, which are crucial for the success of the Scions IMO.
Also, the priesthood path is a must, in order to get the ability to produce reborns.
At this point, I feel the Scions have to be made more attracted towards the arcane path, since it is the weakest for them and does not fit it, being an Arcane civ and such. Right now, I give the arcane path a low priority, since it is better to work for having Korina the Red Laidy, Gosthwalkers, and the Doomsayers, first... Researching Knoweledge of the Ether just after I get the Red lady to unshakle her.

You also get quite a bit of happiness from the training buildings, as well as reducing maintenance... Makes it worth it early-midgame for me. I do tend to switch over to godking once I have to start cranking out reborn, but the benefits for aristocracy in the early game are fine.

I usually do not need that much happiness, since I do not get that many awakened, and early game production and research is more importand to me. Research=Commerse, early game... As for maintenance, no problems here with only 3 or 4 cities up to midgame...

EDIT: All descriptions and opinions are given for the Monarch difficulty, which I currently play. I do not know what happens on higher difficulties...

For me, Tarq, the most useless thing with the Scions so far are the Creepers, because they can't do any damage on thier own and are invisible so most

For me, Tarq, the most useless thing with the Scions so far are the Creepers, because they can't do any damage on thier own and are invisible so most barbs don't attack them, therefore unless I can con something into attacking a stack they're hiding in they never do any good and I just sit them on a town and hope.

I'd really like the ability to do some sort of damage and feed them, or something. I am at the moment, utterly unimpressed by them. I just wait for the chance to research the Recon line and do HLs that way.

The creepers as of .50 are upgrading over time and can create haunted lands without needing to get fed.

EDIT: In addition, they are not invisible to hunters. I had some AI hunters and scouts attacking my creepers before .50.

I'm ambivalent towards creepers. By the time I have redactors, they're just a nuisance spawning constantly throughout my haunted continent, but early game they help quite a bit, letting me haunt those tiles that could use it most. I WOULD like to see their spawning toned down a bit late game, but it's easily dealt with by just deleting them.

Would have to agree that Creepers feel pretty useless. The combination of incredibly low strength, defensive only, and invisible means that they will basically never win a fight, and almost never be in a fight at all. Arawn's Dust, at least, is a pretty useless spell IMO; haven't seen what the blooming creeper spell does.

Creepers would ironically be a LOT more useful if they were not invisible; you could use them as a throwaway defensive unit to poison enemies, and stack them on chokepoints to slow an advance.

Have to agree, the creepers seem of little use. I thought they were supposed to destroy the attacking unit even if they die? It's not been happening so far. The unit was poisoned, but that was the extent. It would make sense to either remove the invisiblity, or let them attack.

Even without the instant kill poison then, at least creepers would make free cannon fodder to slow down invading armies.

I'm surprised about the Creepers. I don't think of them as military units at all, but more as spies, traps (lack of invis. would certainly help there, at least with the final stage) and vehicles for Arawn's Dust or Burrs. But I didn't have many last game (enough to drop the Bannor's population significantly, though) and am just getting into them this game. I was afraid they'd be too usefull. We'll see.

Some possible tweaks (ie, I don't want to make them very different, lets see if this fixes it) would be maturing them quicker, wholly or partially removing invis. (seems esp. dangerous, balance-wise), adjusting the spawn frequency or #s.

My suggestions: Fewer of them, more useful. Quicker stage changes, the ability to remove invis at the player's discretion.

I really love creepers! Speaking of which...what have you done with them? I have created 4 haunted lands so far, and no creeper in sight??? I cannot build them, either?

Corina the Black lady fell victim to a barbarian stack. BTW, I thought a shakled Korina was not allowed outside cultural borders, but it now reads, she is not allowed in rival territory, but I could get her out in neutral lands.

Some more info about how can you get the creeper in the civilopedia would be useful.

Do not have quicker stage changes please. They are fine right now, or they will become too powerful...IMO. I am also agaist the fewer, more useful arguments. Just as they are but more?

The only think that would feel better would be to make them able to lift their invisibility. After all, some times, you want those vile beings protect your cultural borders, right?

EDIT: Patch E. I prefer using creepers as traps and blocking enemy recons from entering my territory so far. Not being able to lift the invisibility is a nuisance, though.

Simply allowing them to mature faster would make them worthwhile in my opinion.

I really love creepers! Speaking of which...what have you done with them? I have created 4 haunted lands so far, and no creeper in sight??? I cannot build them, either?

Corina the Black lady fell victim to a barbarian stack. BTW, I thought a shakled Korina was not allowed outside cultural borders, but it now reads, she is not allowed in rival territory, but I could get her out in neutral lands.

Some more info about how can you get the creeper in the civilopedia would be useful.

Do not have quicker stage changes please. They are fine right now, or they will become too powerful...IMO. I am also agaist the fewer, more useful arguments. Just as they are but more?

The only think that would feel better would be to make them able to lift their invisibility. After all, some times, you want those vile beings protect your cultural borders, right?

EDIT: Patch E. I prefer using creepers as traps and blocking enemy recons from entering my territory so far. Not being able to lift the invisibility is a nuisance, though.

The only reason I'd prefer fewer is by the end game, I've conquered my continent and covered it in HL..... not sure how often they spawn, but when they do I end up with 40 of the little buggers. Lots of micro-management deleting them.

The only reason I'd prefer fewer is by the end game, I've conquered my continent and covered it in HL..... not sure how often they spawn, but when they do I end up with 40 of the little buggers. Lots of micro-management deleting them.

Why micromanage them? If you just leave them where they spawned and get them fortify, they are fine. You never know when you are going to use them. Those sneaky enemy recons are hard to catch with the slow scion's units...

Btw. For the first time I figuered out what drowsing does...OK, I may be slow at times, but the civilopedia entry does not really help. Since there can be more like me I will say in this post what it really does FYI.

Drowsing reveals the hidden resources due to not having yet researched the technology revealing them, in the explored portion of the map. In order to see them, you press the button for showing the resources(last to the right IIRC), since there is no visual indication for them on the map.

OK, I have played 60 more turns. I figured out how the new creeper thing works. I did find something strange, though. I had creepers spawning in a city, although cities do not have haunted lands. Is this how it is supposed to be?

The +1 Movement when on haunted lands is not handled well when calculating where can the unit go. So, it happens that you end up 1 or more squares away from your desired location, because the game does not know that, as soon as you are off the haunted lands, there is no +1 movement...So you have to walk one square at the time, which is painful to do if you have 10-25 units to move...

I think 4 turns(Standart speed) is too quickly for the ghostwalkers to finish mend nature. I suggest setting it back to 6 turns.

Can you please give a detailed explaination of dowsing, and especially the part that "you could enjoy the benefits of having the resource even without researching the technoloy, if you happen to cast it many times" is mentioned in the civilopedia?

Can you tell me why the Scions cannot build farms? It would be an insentive to go Aristocracy, but without it, really the benefits of God King are much better.

My staff is looking into the rest of your post. For these two:

Can you please give a detailed explaination of dowsing,

Nope! Never cast it, don't know how it works. :)


Can you tell me why the Scions cannot build farms?

For the AI - Farms aren't of much use to the Scions.

My staff is looking into the rest of your post. For these two:


Wow, your staff? I didn't know you have a staff!?! :lol:
I feel priviledged.:cool:


Nope! Never cast it, don't know how it works. :)


Come one, you have created it? Maybe someone you know has created it? There should be someone that knows excactly what it does, no?


For the AI - Farms aren't of much use to the Scions.

They are of much use with Aristocracy. Perhaps you should make a condition to the preventing code and allow it for human players?

EDIT: After giving it a better thought, it doesn;t really worth it...Perhaps a 100% in awakening spawn or even 75% could be an incentive. But with 40%, I still prefer God King nomatter what, and cottages are far better than farms...

Maybe someone you know has created? There should be someone that knows excactly what it does, no?

Yes to both... and you have pretty much the same channels to them as I do. :)


They are of much use with Aristocracy. Perhaps you should make a condition to the preventing code and allow it for human players?

You'd rather have a Farms than (growing) Cottages?

You'd rather have a Farms than (growing) Cottages?

Aristocracy is the "in" thing at the moment in MP at least, and for good reason.