Let me try! :) I don't know much about anything, so here's a whirl.

England

Factions:
1. Rulers - Henry VII and the House of Tudor, with Lancaster and York support.
2. Pretenders - Includes Perkin Warbeck and his supporters (certain nobles, foreign powers).
3. Peasants - Includes the Irish under British control.
4. Nobles, who have gained some measure of autonomy during the War of the Roses.
5. The Church of England - Under Catholic control but includes religious groups such as the Lollards who would be a precursor to the Reformation.

Dutch Nationalists (Although it would be some time before they revolted, quite a few of the Dutch nobles didn't like Maximilian, or the Habsburgs in general. Nor did they like the French, so it seems reasonable to assume they wanted Dutch independence.)

I would not call them nationalists; they were more like regional separatists-if-circumstances-call-for-it, more affiliated with, say, Gelre rather than with an united Holland.

Not sure if the Burgundians remained a significant faction as separate from the Dutch Nobility at this point; on the other hand, you might want to take Styrian nobility and Carinthian free peasantry into account. Austria's main internal problems at the time were not in the Low Countries but in Austria iteself, because Austria was still a hodgepodge of very heterogeneous territories, each with its own set of uppity nobles and cities.

---

Great Principality of Moscow

Factions (note that they can overlap in some cases):
- Daniilovichi (the Muscovite branch of the Rurikid Dynasty, including the apanage princes and minor annoying relatives);
- The Great Prince's Court (the most prominent boyars and wealthiest/most influential merchants of Moscow (the city) along with other influential persons in the central administration; consistently the loyalist faction);
- The local boyars (leftovers of local nobilities in Russian principalities post-annexation, in various states of disenfranchisement and humiliation; submissive and/or bitter);
- The dvoryans ("courtiers"; effectively a bureaucratic nobility, granted lands and privileges in exchange for civil service rather than inheriting them like boyars do (at least in theory), and constituting the upper ranks of what passes for a bureaucratic apparatus, mostly connected to administration of conquered territories);
- The Russian Orthodox Church (bitterly divided between the Nonpossessors and the Josephites, and along other lines as well, though the "Judaiser" heretics have since been purged; also, traditionally dominated by/supportive of the Great Prince, since the Metropolitan of Kiev resides in Moscow);
- Peasants (almost exclusively serfs to the state, the boyars, the dvoryans, the bishops or the monasteries; almost always insignificant).

I would not call them nationalists; they were more like regional separatists-if-circumstances-call-for-it, more affiliated with, say, Gelre rather than with an united Holland.

Not sure if the Burgundians remained a significant faction as separate from the Dutch Nobility at this point; on the other hand, you might want to take Styrian nobility and Carinthian free peasantry into account. Austria's main internal problems at the time were not in the Low Countries but in Austria iteself, because Austria was still a hodgepodge of very heterogeneous territories, each with its own set of uppity nobles and cities.


Fair points. I'll change it from Dutch Nationalists to just Dutch Separatists? Or perhaps "Dutch Separatists (Various)" and throw in "German Separatists (Various) as well?

Well, it depends on whether you want straightforward political factions or social groups that can be united into political factions at the time but still have their own goals. What makes things complicated, for instance, is that the Dutch nobles coexisted with the Dutch free cities, and those groups often had disagreements of their own, as well as common disagreements with their supreme ruler.

But sure, regional Dutch separatists and regional Austrian separatists work out as well (Carinthian peasants were not exactly separatists; they were more like the Swiss "peasants" than anything else, only Slovenian and not catalysed into action yet. They were pretty awesome in the early 16th century, which is why I brought them up).

Changed! I think I've successfully made the Dutch easier to manipulate and possibly made the Austrians easier to placate.

House of Habsburg/Hapsburg (Rulers)
Clergy (Catholic)
Austrian Nobility
Dutch Nobles
Dutch Free Cities


This will do for now, pending research.

Rules for BirdNES 3 are coming along nicely

Initiative Points: these points control how active you can be during a given turn. They represent the capability (willingness?) of your government to carry out what you command. Initiative points are limited and you cannot spend more than you have. They replenish each turn, but the recalculation could change the number you have available from turn to turn based on a variety of circumstances. Not every action consumes Initiative Pints (IP). They cannot be banked.


If you spend IP on things that don’t require IP, will that ensure that you do a “better” job at it?


• Religion—catholic, protestant, Buddhist, whatever. At some point European nations will likely have at least 2 religious factions. Religious factions can be large or small and can change size with some speed if the call of god comes to them.


The Reformation is not some preordained event, nor is its spread.


There will be a Papal player with slightly different rules.


I warn the future Papal player, be a good pope or else…there is precedent:

Update 5 1520-1524

Rome
Donatello Ameche, former secretary to the now dead Pope Leo X was unsure of what to do next. Two months ago, just 10 days after Leo died and while the cardinals were secluded, a French army made camp outside the city. The had marched up from Naples as soon as Leo had breathed his last. Their message was quite clear: elect Guilio d’Medici of Florence, Pope. He was smart and popular and not a bad choice, so the conclave bowed to the army at hand and sent white smoke up the chimney within 26 hours. Guilio took the office as Celestine VI. Within weeks he had addressed the Curia with talk of change and reform, a return to orthodoxy and unity among all Catholics. He reached out to the Germans and beseeched them to come back to the arms of the Blessed Mother Church. Donatello anguished. The Pope had spoken, but he held out his hand to heretics when he should have used a lash or red-hot tongs. Donatello would fade from the Papal court, but he knew there was a place for him not too far away.

With their Pope installed the French army departed for Naples and then home. Italy remained quiet, but the undercurrent was one of worry, people crossed themselves a bit more frequently and prayed for peace and enough food during the winter.

+Little Boots as player for Papal States
+Rockstar as player for ???



That said, if the future Papal player would like help, I am always here to help. I’ve attached an article on Papal finances from this time period as a peace offering.


By including such a role, I have to make sure that there will be some player demand for money so I would have to make money tighter and harder to come by in the game. Your thoughts and ideas are welcome.


Have plenty of EP (10+) but with smaller spending power (I have lots of reasons for this stance, but that is neither here nor there unless you need them). Have troop upkeep ruinously expensive, have wars in general ruinously expensive, as I am under the impression that wars were the prime reason for debt for most nations.

Bird, I currently can only access forums on week-ends. However, I have access to AIM and e-mail throughout the week. Would you be willing to let me play under these circumstances?

Bird, I currently can only access forums on week-ends. However, I have access to AIM and e-mail throughout the week. Would you be willing to let me play under these circumstances?
I'm sure we can figure something out. We can certainly give it a try. :)

If you spend IP on things that don’t require IP, will that ensure that you do a “better” job at it?
Interesting, I will think about it.


The Reformation is not some preordained event, nor is its spread.
Then the Pope had best be pretty effective... :p

I warn the future Papal player, be a good pope or else…there is precedent:

That said, if the future Papal player would like help, I am always here to help. I’ve attached an article on Papal finances from this time period as a peace offering.

Have plenty of EP (10+) but with smaller spending power (I have lots of reasons for this stance, but that is neither here nor there unless you need them). Have troop upkeep ruinously expensive, have wars in general ruinously expensive, as I am under the impression that wars were the prime reason for debt for most nations. Your thoughts are always interesting and helpful.

Then the Pope had best be pretty effective... :p

It's hard not to be more effective than what we had in OTL, though. ;) That said, some kind of a reformist faction, though often an incoherent one, and possibly some heresies are more or less inevitable from the outset; whether they actually lead to anything as grandiose as in OTL or not is far from decided, though.

I'm sure we can figure something out. We can certainly give it a try. :)

Thank you very much!

Hungary

Factions:
- Matthias Corvinus, the King of Hungary and Croatia, King of Bohemia, and Duke of Austria. A very educated great king, he has made Hungary into a super-power. However, his death seems near, and his only immediate heir is an illegitimate son that no one wants on the throne.Allies/good friends: France, Burgundy, Switzerland, Florence, many German states, Muscovy.
- Janos Corvinus, Matthias's illegitimate son. In recent years/months, he has been loaded with riches and titles given to him by his father, and Matthias is just finishing the negotiations about Janos's succession. Neither the nobles nor the queen want to see him on the throne though, and if Matthias dies prematurely, God help this 17-year old.
- The nobles (usually also generals). While they currently do not have too much power, there is a good chance of that changing after Corvinus's death.
- The peasants. Currently not a major faction, but a large peasant rebellion could certainly shake things up.
- The Black Army of Hungary. Arguably the first non-conscript, regularly-paid army since Roman times, it has never lost a battle. Unfortunately, the maintenance costs are enormous, and as a result it may soon be disbanded.
- The Roman Catholic Church. It is basically the only religion in Hungary, with ~99% of Hungarians being Roman Catholics.

Then the Pope had best be pretty effective...


Or Charles V (http://books.google.com/books?id=Umc4ti7F_LIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=#PPA105,M1).



How will faction loyalty be measured? Unless one has literally hundreds of factions, despite the appearance, not all factions are monolithic entities: various noble houses can be played off each other, farmers may have different opinions from city dwellers, higher levels of clergy can have different opinions than lower levels of clergy, etc. If I divide the nobility so that the neo-nobility support me while the traditional elite hate me, how will that be measured? Will the nobility loyalty stat be the average? How will my potential enemy know that instead of nobles being content with my reign, you actually have two polarizing camps who hate each other, and so they can take advantage of those who hate me?

Is Egypt going to be of a similar strength to your first NES?

Is Egypt going to be of a similar strength to your first NES?I do not know. I have not created stats for particular nations yet. I do know that nations will have to build their economies from scratch. They will start at varying levels that might even approximate relative historical values ie china will probably be pretty big compared to European nations. I think that power in this game will be more realted to having initiative points, controlling internal factions and being able to get money when you need it. I am trying to shift the focus from just having lots of cash to throw around to other things.

The finished rules will expound on more than I've posted so far.

Hmm, I worry this NES may deviate to much from the NESing experience I enjoy.
However, I will give the rules a good read over and see if these worrys are mistaken.

Can you ban him now? ;) :p

Does the HRE exist in this timeline?

How will faction loyalty be measured? Unless one has literally hundreds of factions, despite the appearance, not all factions are monolithic entities: various noble houses can be played off each other, farmers may have different opinions from city dwellers, higher levels of clergy can have different opinions than lower levels of clergy, etc. If I divide the nobility so that the neo-nobility support me while the traditional elite hate me, how will that be measured? Will the nobility loyalty stat be the average? How will my potential enemy know that instead of nobles being content with my reign, you actually have two polarizing camps who hate each other, and so they can take advantage of those who hate me?Factions will certainly be an oversimplification of real life. I want to keep the number I have to deal with reasonable. Many of the factions mentioned so far, I know nothing about, so I will rely on players to provide backgrounds and flavor. Much of the potential richness of this aspect of the game will depend upon the players and their contributions. I will later post my ideas on the use of stories in the game. They are relevant to factions.

Posted scores will relay truthful information 9in that they will not be misleading to players) about a faction: how loyal, how large and its influence, all of which can change from turn to turn.

Loyalty is tied to other stats and to policies you might implement or not. Other nations will be able to bribe factions to change sides. Culture and prestige can also have an impact on loyalties.

Does this help?

Hmm, I worry this NES may deviate to much from the NESing experience I enjoy.
However, I will give the rules a good read over and see if these worrys are mistaken.
The full rules have not been posted. I've only posted stat descriptions so far. I am hoping it will be departure from the typical, but a lively voyage none the less. Requesting a nation does not obligate you.

Does the HRE exist in this timeline?
Yes it does. The Emperor will gain prestige, probably money, and factional influence. It will not be a playable nation.

Interested in Brandenburg.

-Joachim I Nestor, Elector of Brandenburg: The Prince-Elector of Brandenburg. A strong Catholic and patron of learning
-Nobles: Weakened in recent years with increased Hohenzollern control. They remain mostly loyal.
-The Peasants: Although two major rebellions have occurred within the last 50 years, Joachim's more reasonable policies have increased their loyalty towards the monarchy.
-The Catholic Church: Very strongly tied to the monarchy in Brandenburg. Albert, the Archbishop of Madeburg is the Prince-Elector's brother.
-Burghers-Some in the merchant class are upset over the weakening of the Hanseatic League in favor of the monarchy.

Bombshoo!!! You've come too!

Mameluke Egypt

Mamelukian Dynasty
Ruler : Sultan Al-Ashraf Sayf ad-Din Enal
Amirs- Nobility, kept mostly in check, have substantial influence, although the Sultan still has the ultimate say.
Merchant and Artisans- Both in high demand and availability, as artisans are needed for the primitive guns and armor and swords
Peasants-Living fairly well, happy under Al-Ashraf’s rule.

Wow. Not here for two days and everything of significance is taken.

Again. :(

Interested in Brandenburg.Welcome!

Mameluke Egypt

Mamelukian Dynasty
Ruler : Sultan Al-Ashraf Sayf ad-Din Enal
Amirs- Nobility, kept mostly in check, have substantial influence, although the Sultan still has the ultimate say.
Merchant and Artisans- Both in high demand and availability, as artisans are needed for the primitive guns and armor and swords
Peasants-Living fairly well, happy under Al-Ashraf’s rule.Sp, be aware that Abaddon has expressed interest in the Mamelukes. He played them in BirdNES 1 and noted an interest in playing them again in this game some months ago. If he does want to play and still wants Egypt, I will give it to him; if not, it is yours. to cover yourself, be thinking about an alternative, just in case. :)

I expressed it first. ;)

Sure, no problem.

Wow. Not here for two days and everything of significance is taken.

Again. :(Don't despair, make your request (or two).

Alex play China!!!

Azale took it, I believe.

I've been thinking of the Mughals if Abaddon wants Egypt, is that ok?

May i request to take Ayutthaya?
If not then Oman is fine, and if i cant get that then im screwed.

I'll throw my lot in as Northwestern European bankers. England or Germany :p

No China or Ayutthaya.

Wow. Not here for two days and everything of significance is taken.

Again. :(

Sweden, Poland, and the Ottomans aren't significant enough for you? :p

Mkay that Thailand state then over there in the purple.
What is it?

Mkay that Thailand state then over there in the purple.
What is it?

Where is this map people are speaking of?


Beej.. perhaps revise the OP?

Okay i guess the map is void and Bird is making a new one? If that is so then can i request Naples?

Sweden, Poland, and the Ottomans aren't significant enough for you? :p

No. They are all doomed to defeat at the hands of das :p

English Banking Family I am.

Just thought I'd post this for anyone wanting to know what should be available in Europe until a new map is up.

http://www.euratlas.com/history_europe/europe_map_1500.html

Has anyone "bagged" Spain?

I'll throw my lot in as Northwestern European bankers. England or Germany :p

Germany? Be more specific please.

No. They are all doomed to defeat at the hands of das :p

English Banking Family I am.

Huzzah, I'm going to have so much fun taxing the money out of you. Or something equally evil. :)

Azale took it, I believe.

I've been thinking of the Mughals if Abaddon wants Egypt, is that ok?They would be fine. Study up on possible factions.

May i request to take Ayutthaya?
If not then Oman is fine, and if i cant get that then im screwed.
Yes, Study up on possible factions. Alex might be able to help with that.

Where is this map people are speaking of?
Beej.. perhaps revise the OP?Haven't a clue on the map. I haven't posted one related to requesting nations.

Okay I guess the map is void and Bird is making a new one? If that is so then can I request Naples?I thought (see above) you wanted Ayutthaya?

No. They are all doomed to defeat at the hands of das :p

English Banking Family I am.OK, maybe i should assign das the Aztecs or Inka. :mischief:

Has anyone "bagged" Spain?Yes. Lucky I think. Portugal is still open as is Scotland.

Also open: Japan, Venice, Genoa, various Indian subcontinent nations

Germany? Be more specific please.

No, England.

@Lightfang, Parliament. Parliament.

Mameluke Egypt

Mamelukian Dynasty
Ruler : Sultan Al-Ashraf Sayf ad-Din Enal
Amirs- Nobility, kept mostly in check, have substantial influence, although the Sultan still has the ultimate say.
Merchant and Artisans- Both in high demand and availability, as artisans are needed for the primitive guns and armor and swords
Peasants-Living fairly well, happy under Al-Ashraf’s rule.

Fixed:

Mamluk Dynasty
-Ruler: Al-Ashraf Sayf al-Din Qa'it Bay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ashraf_Sayf-ad-Din_Qait_Bay)
-Amirs: Mamluk military commanders and sometimes land holders, marginally kept in check by current sultan by playing them off each other, number a few hundred, each with personal and extremely loyal former-slave army which make up the rest of the Mamluks, have power to appoint sultans
-Bureaucracy: Coptic Christian and Jewish bureaucracy headed by powerful Amirs who are appointed due to political connections rather than ability
-Peasants: Oppressed by Mamluks and thus extremely dissatisfied

The merchants are not a significant faction since 1428 when the government monopolistically took over the spice trade.

Thanks. Wikipedia says the Mughal Empire didn't even exist until 1526!!

We can start offically reserving nations? Or is this preferences?

But either way, I'd specifically like Brandenburg, but any other german state would do.

Matt, bombshoo already asked for Brandenburg. (That, and Brandenburg really isn't that important yet. It's kind of amusing to see people grabbing them but ignoring, say, Saxony, or the Palatinate.)
Thanks. Wikipedia says the Mughal Empire didn't even exist until 1526!!
Actually, Babur's family (who would go on to be the Mughal rulers of India) currently control the Ferghana Valley and parts of modern Xinjiang. He himself is but seven years of age at the time of the beginning of the NES.

Thanks. Wikipedia says the Mughal Empire didn't even exist until 1526!!The official Empire that included northern India came then, but they got their start much earlier in the area south of the Aral sea.

We can start offically reserving nations? Or is this preferences?

But either way, I'd specifically like Brandenburg, but any other german state would do.These are requests and not guaranteed. I will try to honor these requests unless other circumstances come into play.

I think Bombshoo requested Brandenburg already, you can be second in line if you want and have a different choice where you can be first in line. I think its post 227 277 that has a list of requests.

Matt, bombshoo already asked for Brandenburg. (That, and Brandenburg really isn't that important yet. It's kind of amusing to see people grabbing them but ignoring, say, Saxony, or the Palatinate.)

I'm aware of that, I just like to build my nations from scratch as much as possible, and Brandenburg is very malleable. Not to mention its considerable distance from any major power I'll have to worry about for some time.

On that note, since they are not very important yet, finding much good info on them from between them becoming an electorate to before the Protestant Reformation was very difficult. If anyone knows anything more on the area from this era would they correct my faction list? I'm really not sure at all how accurate this information is, considering I used about 5 different sources and had to paste together events and make assumptions on how some of them would effect various factions.

-Joachim I Nestor, Elector of Brandenburg: The Prince-Elector of Brandenburg. A strong Catholic and patron of learning.
-Nobles: Weakened in recent years with increased Hohenzollern control. They remain mostly loyal.
-The Peasants: Although two major rebellions have occurred within the last 50 years, Joachim's more reasonable policies have increased their loyalty towards the monarchy.
-The Catholic Church: Very strongly tied to the monarchy in Brandenburg. Albert, the Archbishop of Madeburg is the Prince-Elector's brother.
-Burghers-Some in the merchant class are upset over the weakening of the Hanseatic League in favor of the monarchy.

Also, depending on how the rules for things like banks look, I have not ruled out playing the Medicis or Fuggers.

Aww... that's disappointing, but no problem, I'll reserve Bavaria instead.:goodjob:

List moved forward for easier access.

Firm requests for nations so far:
Spain: Lucky moose
France: The Strategos
Teutonic Knights: Dachs
China: Azale
Denmark (Kalmar Union, includes Sweden): Lord Joakim
Austria: Fantasmo
Moscow: das
England: Lightfang
Hungary: Qoou
Brandenburg: Bombshoo
Bavaria: Matt0088

Non Nation Roles:
European Banker: Masada
English Banker: Alex944
Pope: Banana Lee

Tenative Interest:
Mameluke Egypt: Sp1023 & Abaddon
Portugal: Abaddon

Other choices:
Japan
Ottoman Turks: North King (tentative)
Poland
Rajput
Bengal
Sultanate of Delhi
Vijayanagar
Mughals
Persians (Nation building)
Songhai or Mali
Axum
Aztec
Inka
Mayan revival: Condor green
Scotland
Venice
Genoa

New and inexperienced NESers Welcome!

Ok man i am going to go with Mayan revival (sorry about the flipflop i just didnt know what was available)

Oooo
I see the Pope is open.

Let Pope Alexander VI be played by me :D

Oooo
I see the Pope is open.

Let Pope Alexander VI be played by me :DGreat choice. The pope is unique. I will provide you with more details later, but his role is to maintian the catholic faith all across Europe and will be able to heavily influence catholic factions in nations. The Pope can make demands on Catholic leaders and will have means of punishment if he is unhappy with the results. The Pope will have armies, will be able to grant "prestige".

There will be factions in the church too. You might see what you can come up with. I also expect that the Inquisition could be tool that might show up as a faction in some nations.

Please note that Sweden has a separate governmental apparatus from Denmark and could be considered a separate country within the Kalmar Union.

Tentative interest in the Ottomans. :)

Please note that Sweden has a separate governmental apparatus from Denmark and could be considered a separate country within the Kalmar Union.Lj want sto try to make the union work so I'm guessing Sweden will be faction within the union and he will have to work to keep thing together.

Tentative interest in the Ottomans. :)
Thanks.

Great choice. The pope is unique. I will provide you with more details later, but his role is to maintian the catholic faith all across Europe and will be able to heavily influence catholic factions in nations. The Pope can make demands on Catholic leaders and will have means of punishment if he is unhappy with the results. The Pope will have armies, will be able to grant "prestige".

There will be factions in the church too. You might see what you can come up with. I also expect that the Inquisition could be tool that might show up as a faction in some nations.

Sounds like a fun thing to play - will ask more questions when I get more details :)

Oooo
I see the Pope is open.

Let Pope Alexander VI be played by me :D
Are you taking both the Pope and the Papal States itself?

If BananaLee takes both, can I take Ethiopia?

Are you taking both the Pope and the Papal States itself?

If BananaLee takes both, can I take Ethiopia?The Pope gets the Papal States too.

You can take Ethiopia. You need to think about factions you might have that would be active in about 1500 AD. You can post them here when you come up with them. Welcome.

Would like to reserve the Mayans.

List moved forward for easier access.

Firm requests for nations so far:
Spain: Lucky moose
France: The Strategos
Teutonic Knights: Dachs
China: Azale
Denmark (Kalmar Union, includes Sweden): Lord Joakim
Austria: Fantasmo
Moscow: das
England: Lightfang
Hungary: Qoou
Brandenburg: Bombshoo
Bavaria: Matt0088
Mayan revival: Condor green
Ethiopia (Axum?): Yui108

Non Nation Roles:
European Banker: Masada
English Banker: Alex944
Pope: Banana Lee

Tenative Interest:
Mameluke Egypt: Sp1023 & Abaddon
Portugal: Abaddon
Ottoman Turks: North King

Other choices:
Japan
Poland
Rajput
Bengal
Sultanate of Delhi
Vijayanagar
Mughals
Persians (Nation building)
Songhai or Mali
Aztec
Inka
Scotland
Venice
Genoa

New and inexperienced NESers Welcome!

The Pope gets the Papal States too.

You can take Ethiopia. You need to think about factions you might have that would be active in about 1500 AD. You can post them here when you come up with them. Welcome.

Well, there was a minor pretender claim to the throne in the king's brother (Na'Od) is that what you are looking for?

Is there any other examples of what might be a Non-Nation player besides bankers and The Pope?

Merc leaders, Roving tribes, that sort of thing, I reckon

@Abaddon: Have you made up your mind, yet?

Someone should run the Sultanate of Malacca, and be conquered by the Portuguese in T11! :D

Someone should run the Sultanate of Malacca, and be conquered by the Portuguese in T11! :D
If the Portuguese plan to be as stupid as they were in OTL, then yeah. :rolleyes:

Well, there was a minor pretender claim to the throne in the king's brother (Na'Od) is that what you are looking for?
Yes exactly.
Is there any other examples of what might be a Non-Nation player besides bankers and The Pope?

Merc leaders, Roving tribes, that sort of thing, I reckonMercenary leader who would provide troops to nations is another. Such a leder would hve to rasise troops and maintain them in hopes that he could rent them out. Like the bankers, the role is still undefined. If the interest is there, I will work on them once the regular rules are complete. I am open to suggestions also.

Posted by Birdjaguar
Mercenary leader who would provide troops to nations is another. Such a leder would hve to rasise troops and maintain them in hopes that he could rent them out. Like the bankers, the role is still undefined. If the interest is there, I will work on them once the regular rules are complete. I am open to suggestions also.

Mhm. If defined, I would be interested in attempting such a role.

Mhm. If defined, I would be interested in attempting such a role.The concept is that both players and and a mod controlled NPC would provide mercenaries to nations who wanted them. Each leader could employ particular types and set the going rates. Maybe even units would have a battle history that would translate into helping the odds of winning wars.

Issues:
2-3 sources are necessary for competition to be part of the equation
Would it be sufficiently interesting to actually play?
What happens once most nations move to standing armies?

I have thought of combining this role with that of bankers to make it broader in scope.

If the Portuguese plan to be as stupid as they were in OTL, then yeah. :rolleyes:

It couldn't be as bad as Spain taking 50 years to conquer Florida like in Birdnes I. Poor Calusa, they didn't even get to be listed as a nation this time around.

Also just out of curiosity, the player, the Pope, is the Pope and also of the Papal States it seems, but does that mean they are always the Pope? Will there be elections upon his death and if so who decides that? A vote amongst players who have a cardinal in their nation pretty much under their control? Or do you decide? Or does the player of the Papacy decide? Do they continue to play the Pope once a Pope dies or is dethroned for some other reason? Alexander VI is nearly 70 years old at the start of this NES and historically dies 3 years later, so obviously we can't keep him in the entire run of the game.

It couldn't be as bad as Spain taking 50 years to conquer Florida like in Birdnes I. Poor Calusa, they didn't even get to be listed as a nation this time around.

Also just out of curiosity, the player, the Pope, is the Pope and also of the Papal States it seems, but does that mean they are always the Pope? Will there be elections upon his death and if so who decides that? A vote amongst players who have a cardinal in their nation pretty much under their control? Or do you decide? Or does the player of the Papacy decide? Do they continue to play the Pope once a Pope dies or is dethroned for some other reason? Alexander VI is nearly 70 years old at the start of this NES and historically dies 3 years later, so obviously we can't keep him in the entire run of the game.

In BirdNES 1, as posted earlier, the original pope player was overthrown and a new player took over. Little Boots IIRC. He then stayed as the pope player and played the new popes as they came along just like the English player would play each king.

Now with the addition of factions, it might be possible for a nation to have influence over the Pope, just like the papal faction in individual nations can influence the polices of Kings. If a Pope is strong in many nations, then it would be difficult for him to be removed by a king, but if the Pope is weak, without a strong faction base, it might well be possible for him to be removed. The Pope will be in a tricky position with lots of opportunities for success and failure.

EDIT: If someone asks to play Calusa, I could accommodate them. ;)

Awesome, if I play the new Popes I believe I'm obliged to play each character (assuming other factions take control?)

Fixed:

Mamluk Dynasty
-Ruler: Al-Ashraf Sayf al-Din Qa'it Bay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ashraf_Sayf-ad-Din_Qait_Bay)
-Amirs: Mamluk military commanders and sometimes land holders, marginally kept in check by current sultan by playing them off each other, number a few hundred, each with personal and extremely loyal former-slave army which make up the rest of the Mamluks, have power to appoint sultans
-Bureaucracy: Coptic Christian and Jewish bureaucracy headed by powerful Amirs who are appointed due to political connections rather than ability
-Peasants: Oppressed by Mamluks and thus extremely dissatisfied

The merchants are not a significant faction since 1428 when the government monopolistically took over the spice trade.

Thanks Strat, and sorry Sp. I confirm my interest in Egypt.

Japan
Poland
Rajput
Bengal
Sultanate of Delhi
Vijayanagar
Mughals
Persians (Nation building)
Songhai or Mali
Aztec
Inka
Scotland
Venice
Genoa


I would either test myself with Persia or just defend my trade routes wiht Genoa or Venice. Persia and Venice perfered!

Dachs, i don't understand whatsoever about what you said below.

I would either test myself with Persia or just defend my trade routes wiht Genoa or Venice. Persia and Venice perfered!
Did you read my brief elucidation of the Persian situation? The current power there is the Aq Qoyunlu (White Sheep Turkoman) Sultanate, which is huge but controls the land poorly, is ethnically outnumbered by the Iranians who live there, and which has just lost its (OTL) last effective sultan. In OTL, the group that rose to prominence in Iran after the disintegration of the Aq Qoyunlu was the Safaviyeh Sufi and military order, but that is by no means guaranteed, and right now the Safaviyeh are insignificant.

Thanks Strat, and sorry Sp. I confirm my interest in Egypt.

NOOOOOO!!!!

Ah well, Then can someone help me make a faction with the Mughals?

NOOOOOO!!!!

Ah well, Then can someone help me make a faction with the Mughals?
They are currently only in possession of Ferghana, and really the only factions that I can think of offhand (silver or das?) would be ʿOmar Sheykh Mirzā, the emir, and his brothers, and perhaps the Shi'a if they were really around.

Since the factions here are closer to social groups, I would think there is the assorted Mongol ulus aristocracy and native tribal aristocracy, and maybe the Chagatayids as a distinct faction as well.

sp, you may want to let someone else have the Mughals. It was not the easy ride that you might be expecting...

There's no guarantee that the Mughals will even end up conquering India :p

See Bird NES I

Dehli Sultanate or Vijayanagar?

So is anything left for me then?

I am pretty sure Portugal isn't taken officially if Abbadon took Egypt. Or there is always Bengal again!

Portugal might be interesting. It is something new.

Portugal might be interesting. It is something new.should I put you down for it?

Well is there anything more interesting than it? Otherwise yeah.

Hahahaha, nobody ever took the Ottomans. Stupid Ottomans. Me and ma Knights are gonna go liberate Anatolia, Thrace, and Greece now. :evil:

Updated I believe.

List moved forward for easier access.

Firm requests for nations so far:
Spain: Lucky moose
France: The Strategos
Teutonic Knights: Dachs
China: Azale
Denmark (Kalmar Union, includes Sweden): Lord Joakim
Austria: Fantasmo
Moscow: das
England: Lightfang
Hungary: Qoou
Brandenburg: Bombshoo
Bavaria: Matt0088
Mayan revival: Condor green
Ethiopia (Axum?): Yui108
Egypt: Abaddon

Non Nation Roles:
European Banker: Masada
English Banker: Alex944
Pope: Banana Lee

Tenative Interest:
Ottoman Turks: North King

Other choices:
Japan
Poland
Portugal: Silver2039?
Rajput
Bengal
Sultanate of Delhi: Sp1023?
Vijayanagar: Sp1023?
Mughals
Persians (Nation building)
Songhai or Mali
Aztec
Inka
Scotland
Venice
Genoa

New and inexperienced NESers Welcome!

Hahahaha, nobody ever took the Ottomans. Stupid Ottomans. Me and ma Knights are gonna go liberate Anatolia, Thrace, and Greece now. :evil:

If this is true than he's just asking for it

If this is true than he's just asking for itNK has them on hold for now, but has not confirmed his interest.

Alright then put me for Portugal unless the Ottomans open up.

http://www.civfanatics.net/methos/bts/updated.gif
as of 1/22/09

Firm requests for nations so far:
Spain: Lucky moose
France: The Strategos
Teutonic Knights: Dachs
China: Azale
Denmark (Kalmar Union, includes Sweden): Lord Joakim
Austria: Fantasmo
Moscow: das
England: Lightfang
Scotland: Foolish Icarus
Hungary: Qoou
Brandenburg: Bombshoo
Bavaria: Matt0088
Mayan revival: Condor green
Ethiopia (Axum?): Yui108
Egypt: Abaddon
Portugal: Warhead
Vijayanagar: Sp1023
Ottoman Turks: Silver2039

Non Nation Roles:
European Banker: Masada
English Banker: Alex944
Pope: Banana Lee

Tenative Interest:
Mughals: North King
Japan: HMS Vanguard

Other choices:
Poland
Rajput
Bengal
Persians (Nation building)
Songhai or Mali
Aztec
Inka
Venice
Genoa
Sultanate of Delhi:

New and inexperienced NESers Welcome!

I look forward to this NES with much enthusiasm.

Hmm it will probably be only a matter of time before the Mayans are destroyed but who knows maybe i will get lucky.

If Silver does not take them, I express interest in Portugal.

Till then, Prussia

Till then, Prussia
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You can have Prussia if you can pry it from my cold, dead, Teutonic Order hands.

If Silver does not take them, I express interest in Portugal.

Till then, Prussia

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You can have Prussia if you can pry it from my cold, dead, Teutonic Order hands.Perhaps he means Brandenburg, but that is Bombshoo's.

How about Saxony? Poland/Lithuania?

I think that Scotland would be a nice nation to play.

Asia needs players: Delhi? Japan?

Perhaps, in tentative style, I will take on Japan.

Good move!

I will most likely take Vijayanagar and attempt to revive a dying empire. ;)

This is probably the Nes i am most excited to see start.

I deem silver bloodthirsty enough and competent, he can take the Ottomans. I'll switch my tentative interest to the Mughals.

Then I shall claim Portugal

I'll switch my tentative interest to the Mughals.
As they are? Brave man.

Thank you, I shall update the list shortly.

I can't help it. I must throw my hat in for Scotland.

I would like to take Inka, second choice Venice

Perhaps, in tentative style, I will take on Japan.

Not Venice? How disappointing.

Not Venice? How disappointing.

I guess history will not repet itself. :lol:

Hey, being backstabbed by a Pope can have lasting and irreversable damage to one perception of history!!

I have never played an Eastern Nation, by if I make a huge balls up of it, perhaps History may repeat itself!!

Are the Aztec still open?
I'll take them ;)

They are yours! :)

is there a map?
I can't seem to find it :p

Thanx

is there a map?
I can't seem to find it :p

Thanx
There is no map. However, there are maps of at the very least Europe in 1490 (one of which (http://www.maparchive.org/details.php?image_id=1021&sessionid=cfb5efa7a5d4b841decb84fe53b) was posted earlier) and I am certain it would not be particularly taxing to find one on the Internet (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/04/Aztecexpansion.png). Your current emperor is Ahuitzotl, and he was pretty badass. Try to fill his shoes adequately.

Is Saxony open?

Is Saxony open?
I am pretty sure that they are.

I'll take Saxony then if Birdjaguar doesn't mind.

Okay, I think I'll withdraw even tentative interest; being back at school has eaten up way more time than I thought.

is there a map?
I can't seem to find it :p

ThanxA most current map has not been posted. I will be posting some maps for comments, but I'm not sure when. Expect Europe and Asia to be 1490ish.

Muddy roads kept us isolated in a very nice B&B over looking the Rio Grande Gorge near Taos all weekend: no TV, no internet, no telephones. all that time allowed me to work out the trade system in considerable detail

There is no map. However, there are maps of at the very least Europe in 1490 (one of which (http://www.maparchive.org/details.php?image_id=1021&sessionid=cfb5efa7a5d4b841decb84fe53b) was posted earlier) and I am certain it would not be particularly taxing to find one on the Internet (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/04/Aztecexpansion.png). Your current emperor is Ahuitzotl, and he was pretty badass. Try to fill his shoes adequately.Yes.

Is Saxony open?Yes

I'll take Saxony then if Birdjaguar doesn't mind.Great thanks.

Okay, I think I'll withdraw even tentative interest; being back at school has eaten up way more time than I thought.School is more important.

Here is my map of Europe so far. Comments and suggestions are welcome.

The colors are just for differentiation and not final for the game. The HRE is a light grey and Brandenburg and Saxony are shown as nations. Italy is shown as states, I wasn't sure who controlled Corsica at this time so it is white. In the Middle East I've added the Federation of the White Sheep in Mesopotamia.

Das you might check on Muscovy's borders for me.
Moorish Grenada is in southern Spain.


http://www.civfanatics.net/methos/bts/updated.gif
as of 1/28/09

Firm requests for nations so far:
Spain: Lucky moose
France: The Strategos
Teutonic Knights: Dachs
China: Azale
Denmark (Kalmar Union, includes Sweden): Lord Joakim
Austria: Fantasmo
Moscow: das
England: Lightfang
Scotland: Foolish Icarus
Hungary: Qoou
Brandenburg: Bombshoo
Bavaria: Matt0088
Ayutthaya: Condor green
Ethiopia: Yui108
Egypt: Abaddon
Portugal: Warhead
Vijayanagar: Sp1023
Ottoman Turks: Silver2039

Non Nation Roles:
European Banker: Masada
English Banker: Alex944
Pope: Banana Lee

Tenative Interest:
Japan: HMS Vanguard

Other choices:
Poland
Rajput
Bengal
Mughals:
Persians
Songhai
Aztec
Inka
Mayan revival
Venice
Genoa
Sultanate of Delhi:

New and inexperienced NESers Welcome!

OOh I like. I think Genoa controlled controlled Corsica by the way.

I'm so hyped right now.

At this point Azale is pretty much alone in Asia as China with maybe HMS Vanguard as Japan.

No one in India :(
No mughals :(
No Ayutthaya :(
No Songhai :(

Here is my map of Europe so far. Comments and suggestions are welcome.


I'll take a closer look at it tomorrow when I am more alert, but until then:

-Navarre should exist

-Naples isn’t controlled by Spain, it is an independent country

-Netherlands is controlled by Austria, not Spain, it also shouldn't go up that much along the northern coast

-Corsica is controlled by Genoa

-Italy is bad: Papal States should not be that large, I know you just want to get rid of small states, but can you at least make them gray or something? Also, Venice/Milan border is messed up. See here for a map of Italy in 1490 (http://www.emersonkent.com/map_archive/italy_1490_map.htm)

-Brittany doesn’t belong to France until 1491

-Calais is a very significant part of England until 1558

-Rhodes should be under the control of the Knights of St. John (or Papal States or really anyone except the Ottomans), which is significant because they can and have blocked Ottoman/Egyptian trade from the island.

-Franche Comte is French until 1493

The Austro-Hungarian border also looks a little wack.

Thanks that the kind of thing I'm looking for.

If you would rather have me as Ayutthaya i will gladly switch.

If you would rather have me as Ayutthaya i will gladly switch.It is up to you; But your long term survival is better as Ayutthaya.

Yeah The Mayans are probably going to get erased pretty soon, so if it wouldnt bother you to much may i take Ayutthaya.
Nice map!

Yeah The Mayans are probably going to get erased pretty soon, so if it wouldnt bother you to much may i take Ayutthaya.
Nice map!That's fine. Now that I have three Asian players, I guess I'll work on a map to post. ;)


On another note, colonies are looking like this:

Mexico: Established (Spain) 3/0/2 Iron
Peru: Expanding (Spain) 6/0/9 Gold
Newfoundland: Surviving (Scotland) 0/0/1 Timber

Colony, status, owner, economy, trade, wealth, resources

- Granada is too big, assuming this starts in 1490. The conquest wasn't a sudden onslaught in 1492. The Spanish spent ten years systematically grinding down the Moors, and by this point, the kingdom was reduced to pretty much the hinterland of Granada itself. Malaga had fallen a couple years earlier, and Almeria late in 1489.
- There's quite a lot wrong with the Netherlands. Friesland and Guelders aren't yet ruled by the Burgundians, but Artois and Hainault are, and there ought to be a gap between Brabant and Luxembourg where the principality of Liege is.
- Chios should be Genovese, but Pisa shouldn't.
- Ceuta should be Portuguese. Portugal shouldn't have a right angle.
- I think the Mamluks had lost control of Dulkadir and Ramazan by now, though I'm not sure.
- The Swiss Confederation looks weird. They definitely shouldn't have that slice of the Sundgau.
- I don't know that the Khanate of Crimea should be part of the Ottoman Empire. They're allied, but the Ottomans don't have that much control.
- Lithuania's eastern border looks odd, too. I don't know that they should extend that far into the Pontic steppe.
- Venice still has Modone and Corone.
- Pskov is still technically around, I think, so there ought to be a gap between Livonia and Muscovy.

I am pretty sure Portugal isn't taken officially if Abbadon took Egypt. Or there is always Bengal again!

Its aBaDDon.

Das you might check on Muscovy's borders for me.

Map here. (http://www.emersonkent.com/map_archive/russia_europe_1300_1796.htm)


- There's quite a lot wrong with the Netherlands. Friesland and Guelders aren't yet ruled by the Burgundians, but Artois and Hainault are, and there ought to be a gap between Brabant and Luxembourg where the principality of Liege is.

Artois is controlled by France until 1493. This (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d3/Karte_Haus_Burgund_5.png) is a good map of the Netherlands where orange is Hasburgs, purple is France, and the stripped is what France lost in 1493.


- I don't know that the Khanate of Crimea should be part of the Ottoman Empire. They're allied, but the Ottomans don't have that much control.


The Ottomans did, however, directly own the former Genoese colonies in Crimea. Also, on the topic, the Crimean territory is much too large. (http://www.emersonkent.com/map_archive/ottoman_1451_1566.htm)


-Sweden/Finland have been independent since 1470 and aren’t reconquered until 1497

-What is Austria’s capital? Shouldn’t it be Vienna?

-Someone should verify, but I am pretty sure White sheep should be bigger, specifically on the north-east and east sides.

Thanks, Strategos. It is interesting how maps differ. I use several atlases I own (Times Atlas of World History & an old edition of Shepard's) plus several from on line. Most never seem to quite agree or they map slightly different dates or jointly copy a third source.

I will make some adjustments of the grossest errors, but my goal is to be "approximately right" rather than "precisely wrong". Anyone who feels strongly and has the time is welcome to make adjustments and post their results. I will copy them into my map.

-Sweden/Finland have been independent since 1470 and aren’t reconquered until 1497

-What is Austria’s capital? Shouldn’t it be Vienna?

-Someone should verify, but I am pretty sure White sheep should be bigger, specifically on the north-east and east sides.I could not find any source that said Sweden was free of Kalmar in the 1490s.

Yes, Vienna was misplaced.

I have tidied up Italy a bit, added Navarre, attempted to fix the Netherlands. I will post a new map, but not until more items are fixed.

I could not find any source that said Sweden was free of Kalmar in the 1490s.
That would be the wonderful episode of Sten Sture the Elder. ;)

That would be the wonderful episode of Sten Sture the Elder. ;)Thank you. So he was a viceroy and Sweden was technically still in the Union. Maybe I should just make him a strong faction that is opposed to the Union.

Thank you. So he was a viceroy and Sweden was technically still in the Union. Maybe I should just make him a strong faction that is opposed to the Union.
After Brunkeberg, it was really de facto independence. The Danes couldn't impose their will on him with anything short of war (which is how Sweden was brought back into the fold), so TBH it'd be kind of silly to keep them in.

Here is my map of Europe so far. Comments and suggestions are welcome.


AFAIK, Hungary is currently occupying (but has not annexed) part of Austria (Styria, Carinthia, Carniola) and Bohemia. In fact, its official capital is Vienna.

AFAIK, Hungary is currently occupying (but has not annexed) part of Austria (Styria, Carinthia, Carniola) and Bohemia. In fact, its official capital is Vienna.Thanks.
You might be correct, IDK. Border changes came fast and furious in this time period, and there were lots of strange relationships between nations that make for murky issues over who did or could control who or what. In any case this is a situation I will let playablility trump history and set Austria free from the shackles of the slavic east. :)

Re: Strategos' map; the main problem is that it shows the borders at the end of the reign of Ivan III, whereas he made a lot of gains versus Lithuania in the 1490-1505 period. And yes, Pskov and Ryazan are still independent but heavily-influenced (as is Kazan, actually; it broke free every now and then, sure, but every second khan or more was put on the throne by the Great Prince from this time on).

Thanks.
You might be correct, IDK. Border changes came fast and furious in this time period, and there were lots of strange relationships between nations that make for murky issues over who did or could control who or what. In any case this is a situation I will let playablility trump history and set Austria free from the shackles of the slavic east. :)

Haha, yes, I'm sure that'll be a great relief to the Germans. What do you plan to do with Bohemia though? Will you go the OTL way and have two people with the title of King of Bohemia, or do something else? The reason I ask is because, while this complicated mess quickly gets sorted out in OTL, I plan to change things up a bit and hopefully avoid Mohacs.

Now that I have done a bit more research I think I would like to switch to Songhai if that is ok.

Frozen, I didn't have you listed at all. I must have missed your post. Younow have Songhai.

As of 1/31/09

Firm requests for nations so far:
Spain: Lucky moose
France: The Strategos
Teutonic Knights: Dachs
China: Azale
Denmark (Kalmar Union, includes Sweden): Lord Joakim
Austria: Fantasmo
Moscow: das
England: Lightfang
Scotland: Foolish Icarus
Hungary: Qoou
Brandenburg: Bombshoo
Bavaria: Matt0088
Ayutthaya: Condor green
Ethiopia: Yui108
Egypt: Abaddon
Songhai: Frozen in Ice
Portugal: Warhead
Vijayanagar: Sp1023
Ottoman Turks: Silver2039

Non Nation Roles:
European Banker: Masada
English Banker: Alex944
Pope: Banana Lee

Tenative Interest:
Japan: HMS Vanguard

Other choices:
Poland
Rajput
Bengal
Mughals:
Persians
Aztec
Inka
Mayan revival
Venice
Genoa
Sultanate of Delhi:

New and inexperienced NESers Welcome!

Re: Strategos' map; the main problem is that it shows the borders at the end of the reign of Ivan III, whereas he made a lot of gains versus Lithuania in the 1490-1505 period. And yes, Pskov and Ryazan are still independent but heavily-influenced (as is Kazan, actually; it broke free every now and then, sure, but every second khan or more was put on the throne by the Great Prince from this time on).Other than the too straight lines, how do the borders on the posted map look?

Haha, yes, I'm sure that'll be a great relief to the Germans. What do you plan to do with Bohemia though? Will you go the OTL way and have two people with the title of King of Bohemia, or do something else? The reason I ask is because, while this complicated mess quickly gets sorted out in OTL, I plan to change things up a bit and hopefully avoid Mohacs.I just made Bohemia part of Hungary. Unless a better plan comes along, I would just have a faction dedicated to the "King of Bohemia".
If you have ideas, post them please.

I want to keep things simple at the start and not have lots of map related complications on turn 1 where everyone feels the need to go to war to get control of what will, in the end, be inconsequential bits real estate.

As we get closer to a start date, I will be requesting formal faction lists so I can add them to the stats. My progress has been slowed by a very heavy work schedule that should lighten up next week.

Please put me firmly in the 'lurking with interest' category. I strongly hope that this takes off, and will join in my usual rabble-rousing fashion when it does. ;)

Please put me firmly in the 'lurking with interest' category. I strongly hope that this takes off, and will join in my usual rabble-rousing fashion when it does. ;)Sure, but you won't get stats or make any tech advances from the outsde looking in. :)

I mostly agree with Perfectionist. Also, the Knights of Rhodes are still alive and kicking (as in, they even went on the offensive in 1496). Many borders are wrong in Italy (especially Tuscany, but also Venice), and Switzerland in particular is utterly out of shape. Saxony's proportions are wrong as well; plus I think it was divided at the time. Brandenburg is supposed to extend further west as well, and Berlin is roughly halfway between the two rivers instead of being on the Oder. I already mentioned Pskov and Ryazan, and Livonia should be a bit bigger in the east as well; it probably would make a lot of sense to add the Khanates (not sure about independent Crimea, though), given the complicated political situation on the steppe; the Lithuanian border looks almost fine, actually, but if anything should be more angled in the northeast (Muscovy, however, should extend far south, having an angle of its own between Ryazan and the Lithuanian border, all the way up to almost 2/3rds of the latter's eastern section).

I've made many of the suggested changes. Let me know what you think.

There's still something off about the eastern border of the Netherlands, but I confess myself of inadequate background in the period to be able to state exactly what. Aq Qoyunlu should extend much further to the east, though. It may be horrendously disorganized and poorly run, and about to enter a succession crisis, but it's quite large. (Which contributed in some measure to its downfall.) Hungarian/Polish borders look off, they're too straight. The Polish-Lithuanian border should be delineated as well, just as the borders in the Union of Kalmar (I'm pretty sure Denmark should have Scania, Blekinge, and Halland). Castile and Aragon should be similarly indicated. French eastern borders look awfully extensive for this time period, though again I can't tell exactly what's wrong.

Have you got a copy of Europa Universalis? I'm sure that switching to the proper date in the game would be somewhat helpful.

I have no idea how things are meant to be looking, but surely Austria and France should have capitals?

There's still something off about the eastern border of the Netherlands, but I confess myself of inadequate background in the period to be able to state exactly what.I feel the same way.


Aq Qoyunlu should extend much further to the east, though. It may be horrendously disorganized and poorly run, and about to enter a succession crisis, but it's quite large. (Which contributed in some measure to its downfall.) White Sheep? Please point me to a map or written description. I've looked and found only a single, not very good, map. The green to their north, BTW, are the Safavids rising.

Hungarian/Polish borders look off, they're too straight. The Polish-Lithuanian border should be delineated as well, just as the borders in the Union of Kalmar (I'm pretty sure Denmark should have Scania, Blekinge, and Halland). Castile and Aragon should be similarly indicated. Those may come depending upon the factions used.

Have you got a copy of Europa Universalis? I'm sure that switching to the proper date in the game would be somewhat helpful.No.

I have no idea how things are meant to be looking, but surely Austria and France should have capitals?They will.

Is Italy better? How about central Germany?

I have a book of post-ancient Persian history with a lot of maps. I am pretty sure it has a map. If the White Sheep territory continues to give you problems, I'll take it to the library and scan it.

I have a book of post-ancient Persian history with a lot of maps. I am pretty sure it has a map. If the White Sheep territory continues to give you problems, I'll take it to the library and scan it.
That would be fantastic!

Asia. The lonely blob north of India are birthing Mughals

In 1500, the Malay Peninsula, and the Eastern Part of Sumatera (Siak and Kampar from memory) should be part of the Malacca Sultanate. There are also the SUltanates of Acheh (Northern Sumatera) and I believe Demak should have the western parts of Java and Southern Sumatera.

In the east, Brunei should have bits of Mindanao and almost the entire island of Borneo.

EDIT: Here's a map of Malacca: -

http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/32/4032-004-A677F28E.gif

White Sheep? Please point me to a map or written description. I've looked and found only a single, not very good, map.
Wiki (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/67/Aq_Qoyunlu.png) has them here in 1478. Ma boy Ya'qub was the last effective ruler Aq Qoyunlu had, and largely prevented territorial losses. It's reasonably safe to assume the borders on that map wouldn't have contracted much.
The green to their north, BTW, are the Safavids rising.
That's quite a big territory for 'em. I personally don't think the Safaviyeh should even be on the map, and if anything ought to be an Aq Qoyunlu faction.

I've made many of the suggested changes. Let me know what you think.

The Muscovite area to the east of the border with Lithuania is supposed to be the principality of Ryazan, but I suppose for simplicity's sake you might as well have it as part of Muscovy; it certainly was less independent from Muscovy than Crimea was from the Ottoman Empire, and it got completely annexed before long.

Also, Switzerland still seems a bit off (too much territory in the south, I think), Mantua should probably be independent, and Florence as well as the Khanates (Kazan, Astrakhan and the Great Horde=Golden Horde Remnant, so to speak, on the decline since 1480 but still a menace to all the other khanates and so very significant in Eastern European geopolitics) probably should be on the map as well. Brandenburg has some of Saxony's territory in its south; it shouldn't border Bohemia proper as yet, and it generally should be moved further to the north/northwest as it had only Pomerania between itself and the Baltic and bordered Brunswick in the west.

As to the new map: Moghulistan should probably be bigger than that. Vijayanagara's capital should probably be in Vijayanagara. :p (Also, the borders were less neat than that; some part of the southwestern coast was out of Vijayanagaran control, but on the other hand it extended just beyond the Godavari in the northeastern coastlands and reached out closer towards it elsewhere; not sure what the yellow state is supposed to be, but it probably shouldn't exist or be much smaller). The Bahmani Sultanate should still be alive and predominant in central India. Not sure about the other stuff, but Vietnam shouldn't extend this far north or this far west; its border was closer to what it is today by then I think, except in the south where conquest is in progress. Lan Xang already exists in Laos. Burma is divided, but Ava and Taungoo are reasonably prominent (and the latter ends up uniting the country not too far into the future).

That would be fantastic!

Bad news. The maps from the book I had were broken down by time periods, and the focus for the late 1400s-early 1500s one was actually on Mughal expansion. While I was right on remembering that the White Sheep were on the map, you can only see just the very eastern edges of their empire making it pretty much useless. Sorry if I got your hopes up.

Hmm, the only thing I have to point out about the map is that the Ming had no political control over the island of Taiwan in this time period :)

If its ok i would like to play as Inka

I've made many of the suggested changes. Let me know what you think.

Looks good, but shouldn't Ethiopia be up to the horn(modern day Eritrea/Somalia)?

EDIT: Ignore this post.

On a completely unrelated note, congratulations with the Junior Mod promotion BJ :) I didn't know where to post this.

Wiki (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/67/Aq_Qoyunlu.png) has them here in 1478. Ma boy Ya'qub was the last effective ruler Aq Qoyunlu had, and largely prevented territorial losses. It's reasonably safe to assume the borders on that map wouldn't have contracted much.

That's quite a big territory for 'em. I personally don't think the Safaviyeh should even be on the map, and if anything ought to be an Aq Qoyunlu faction.
Thanks!
Here is one of my maps for 1500 showing the Safavids on the right edge. It is 10 years after 1490 and your nice map is 12 years earlier. Split the difference? Even though your faction idea is not a bad one. The Safavids are Sufi and Shia rather than Sunni.

http://www.euratlas.com/history_europe/europe_map_1500.html

In 1500, the Malay Peninsula, and the Eastern Part of Sumatera (Siak and Kampar from memory) should be part of the Malacca Sultanate. There are also the SUltanates of Acheh (Northern Sumatera) and I believe Demak should have the western parts of Java and Southern Sumatera.

In the east, Brunei should have bits of Mindanao and almost the entire island of Borneo.

EDIT: Here's a map of Malacca: -

http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/32/4032-004-A677F28E.gifThanks, I will make adjustments.

Thanks!
Here is one of my maps for 1500 showing the Safavids on the right edge. It is 10 years after 1490 and your nice map is 12 years earlier. Split the difference? Even though your faction idea is not a bad one. The Safavids are Sufi and Shia rather than Sunni.
Perhaps. The big expansion of the Safaviyeh was after Ya'qub died, though, so maybe a bit smaller than that. TBH I don't really know that much about Middle Eastern history at this juncture.

Bad news. The maps from the book I had were broken down by time periods, and the focus for the late 1400s-early 1500s one was actually on Mughal expansion. While I was right on remembering that the White Sheep were on the map, you can only see just the very eastern edges of their empire making it pretty much useless. Sorry if I got your hopes up.Hmmm...**makes note about Brandenburg's total lack of navigation technology and map making skills** ;)

Hmm, the only thing I have to point out about the map is that the Ming had no political control over the island of Taiwan in this time period :)So noted, thanks.

If its ok i would like to play as InkaYes you may, but be aware that...well, read a later post I will make tonight.

Looks good, but shouldn't Ethiopia be up to the horn(modern day Eritrea/Somalia)?I don't know; show me a map of where it should be. :goodjob:

On a completely unrelated note, congratulations with the Junior Mod promotion BJ :) I didn't know where to post this.Thank you very much; you guys have made things pretty easy so far, but there is other "keeping up" stuff to do that takes up time.

http://www.guildofblades.com/empires/europe-africa-web-small.gif

The light green African country is Ethiopia, and roughly where it should be.

Rather than list out what I thought needed changing, I decided to make a stab at trying to change them myself.


-Moved Calais slightly northward

-Sicily is Spanish

-Gave France Franche Comte

The succeeding two centuries were years of repeated female succession and dynastic changes. Finally, in 1384, the heiress Margaret of Flanders brought the countship to Philip II (the Bold), duke of Burgundy, to whom she had been married in 1369. After the death of Charles the Bold in 1477, his heiress, Mary, married the Austrian archduke Maximilian I of Habsburg (later Holy Roman emperor). The Treaty of Arras (1482), however, ceded Franche-Comté to the dauphin of France on his betrothal to Mary’s daughter Margaret of Austria. When the dauphin became King Charles VIII, he broke this engagement and had to retrocede Franche-Comté to Austria (Treaty of Senlis, 1493). For the next 185 years, Franche-Comté was a Habsburg possession.


-I did not make Brittany independent. Even though it is technically independent, French Kings have the right by treaty (Treaty of Sable, 1488) to decide who the heir (Anne of Brittany) marries. Just like in OTL 1491, this French King will marry the heir, bringing Brittany to France. Thus, the only reason not to have Brittany as part of France is if another player wishes to illegally attempt a marriage, which would provoke a war with France.

-Moved France’s eastern border west

-Added Avignon to Papal States

-Made Switzerland smaller

-Shrunk Genoa’s southern border

-Included Ferrara (and other small states) in Italy (light gray), thereby shrinking Venice, Papal States, and Milan.

-Gave Venitians Lemnos

-Changed Songhai’s capital from Timbuktu(?) to Gao (if someone could double-check the site, I feel as though I might have made it a little too southward)

The light green African country is Ethiopia, and roughly where it should be.Thanks, any other sources than a game map?
Rather than list out what I thought needed changing, I decided to make a stab at trying to change them myself.


-Moved Calais slightly northward

-Sicily is Spanish

-Gave France Franche Comte


-I did not make Brittany independent. Even though it is technically independent, French Kings have the right by treaty (Treaty of Sable, 1488) to decide who the heir (Anne of Brittany) marries. Just like in OTL 1491, this French King will marry the heir, bringing Brittany to France. Thus, the only reason not to have Brittany as part of France is if another player wishes to illegally attempt a marriage, which would provoke a war with France.

-Moved France’s eastern border west

-Added Avignon to Papal States

-Made Switzerland smaller

-Shrunk Genoa’s southern border

-Included Ferrara (and other small states) in Italy (light gray), thereby shrinking Venice, Papal States, and Milan.

-Gave Venitians Lemnos

-Changed Songhai’s capital from Timbuktu(?) to Gao (if someone could double-check the site, I feel as though I might have made it a little too southward)My hero! Advanced Map making tech for France! ;)

First, I want to thank all of those who are helping me fix the map. I think that by the time its done, it will be a big improvement over my solo efforts. :hatsoff:

You've probably noticed that the map is going up piecemeal as it get areas presentable enough to post. I do plan on a world view that will show the starting configuration. Much of that world will be cloaked for discovery. The cloaked areas, including the homes of the Inka, Aztec and Mayan revival civs, has been redrawn to reflect that players will have to actually explore and discover new worlds. There will be no foreknowledge of where to go and what you will find.

The process to develop these new continents was straight forward. I created the land forms and placed them where I thought they would work and enhance game play. I then sent them to Dis who jiggled them around a bit, snipped and stretched them a tad and then added very detailed land forms and climate data to make them compatible with what we know about how all that stuff works. In many ways these map additions are his and a credit to his expertise. As areas are uncoved, landform and climate data will be revealed.

I know that some of you did not want this alt history to be part of the game. This is your chance to bow out gracefully. I think that it will make things much more interesting and challenging especially given Dis's fine work. So if you don't like the desert coastline where you want to settle, complain to him. ;)

This brings us to the Inka et al. They each have a home in a place that they could easily call home and can have their own adventures until some lost Scotsman, wayward Chinaman or drunken Irish sailor stumbles upon them. Any players of those nations will get updates and maps reflecting their knowledge of their region, but they will not necessarily know exactly where they are in the world.

As of 2/2/09

Firm requests for nations so far:
Spain: Lucky moose
France: The Strategos
Teutonic Knights: Dachs
China: Azale
Denmark (Kalmar Union, includes Sweden): Lord Joakim
Austria: Fantasmo
Moscow: das
England: Lightfang
Scotland: Foolish Icarus
Hungary: Qoou
Brandenburg: Bombshoo
Bavaria: Matt0088
Ayutthaya: Condor green
Ethiopia: Yui108
Egypt: Abaddon
Songhai: Frozen in Ice
Portugal: Warhead
Vijayanagar: Sp1023
Ottoman Turks: Silver2039
Inka: Soldierchild

Non Nation Roles:
European Banker: Masada
English Banker: Alex944
Pope: Banana Lee

Tenative Interest:
Japan: HMS Vanguard

Other choices:
Poland
Rajput
Bengal
Mughals:
Persians
Aztec
Mayan revival
Venice
Genoa
Sultanate of Delhi:

New and inexperienced NESers Welcome!

My interest remains undiminished :D

First, I want to thank all of those who are helping me fix the map. I think that by the time its done, it will be a big improvement over my solo efforts. :hatsoff:

You've probably noticed that the map is going up piecemeal as it get areas presentable enough to post. I do plan on a world view that will show the starting configuration. Much of that world will be cloaked for discovery. The cloaked areas, including the homes of the Inka, Aztec and Mayan revival civs, has been redrawn to reflect that players will have to actually explore and discover new worlds. There will be no foreknowledge of where to go and what you will find.

The process to develop these new continents was straight forward. I created the land forms and placed them where I thought they would work and enhance game play. I then sent them to Dis who jiggled them around a bit, snipped and stretched them a tad and then added very detailed land forms and climate data to make them compatible with what we know about how all that stuff works. In many ways these map additions are his and a credit to his expertise. As areas are uncoved, landform and climate data will be revealed.

I know that some of you did not want this alt history to be part of the game. This is your chance to bow out gracefully. I think that it will make things much more interesting and challenging especially given Dis's fine work. So if you don't like the desert coastline where you want to settle, complain to him. ;)

This brings us to the Inka et al. They each have a home in a place that they could easily call home and can have their own adventures until some lost Scotsman, wayward Chinaman or drunken Irish sailor stumbles upon them. Any players of those nations will get updates and maps reflecting their knowledge of their region, but they will not necessarily know exactly where they are in the world.

I supported it all along, and I still count myself in. :)

I know that some of you did not want this alt history to be part of the game. This is your chance to bow out gracefully.

I don't like it, but honestly it doesn't affect me because I, as France, wasn't even going to start colonizing until around turn 10 (1535 or later), by which point I assume I will be already sucked into the NESing world, so that something like this wouldn't matter. I am much more concerned that the pace of exploration and colonization is "realistic" and that this game doesn't suffer under the BirdNES problem of severely overvaluing exploration/colonization and making non-colony expansion completely worthless (such as the completely hypothetical but perfectly possible BirdNES position of one country conquering all of Europe and making less from it than having one 100 man trade post).

Seconded.

As to Ethiopia: it would be nice to have it, ofcourse, but a) it was much smaller than that (centered in the Ethiopian Highlands) and b) you will definitely need to include Adal as well. Adal is probably a tributary state at the time, but that is not so difficult to reverse, as you probably know.

Adal is probably a tributary state at the time, but that is not so difficult to reverse, as you probably know.
They don't revolt until early next century IIRC.

Yeah, I'm still interested; the Teutonic Order isn't about to be sending out colonization vessels or anything anytime soon.

I don't like it, but honestly it doesn't affect me because I, as France, wasn't even going to start colonizing until around turn 10 (1535 or later), by which point I assume I will be already sucked into the NESing world, so that something like this wouldn't matter. I am much more concerned that the pace of exploration and colonization is "realistic" and that this game doesn't suffer under the BirdNES problem of severely overvaluing exploration/colonization and making non-colony expansion completely worthless (such as the completely hypothetical but perfectly possible BirdNES position of one country conquering all of Europe and making less from it than having one 100 man trade post).I recognize that concern. The question you raise concerns what is "valued" in game terms and how that is measured.

Typically, I've seen spending ability and area conquered be the two traditional measuring sticks and players working to increase how much they can spend or how much area they control. I am trying to get a step or two away from that model. Initiative, Prestige and Wealth are three new stats that should help. "Wealth" is not just money or spending levels, but broader in its sources. I am hoping that lack initiative will limit how many things players can do, lack of money will force borrowing to take on large tasks like war and religion, and fear of political opposition will be real. All of these should slow the pace down. Mounting a major expedition may easily preclude any other significant effort. Few costs are fixed. Players spend whatever they want or can afford and see what happens. For example, armies will be listed as # of men: buy 1 or 10,000.

First, about colonization and trading forts. Colonization will be a slower and more costly process with few immediate returns and the locations possible for colonization resitricted. I am trying to match the game to 16th C efforts and failures.

Trading Forts will be contact points for establishing trade routes to distant locations. The value of the forts will be in their connectivity and not in the forts themselves. But without them a nation will not participate in trading with distant nations.

In addition to long distance ocean trading, there is a regional trading element that links neighboring areas (like Western Europe & Eastern Europe) to carry on vigorous trading simply, without having to make treaties and such. And I've kept overland trading via routes like the Silk Road. All tradng will produce money and wealth.

Factions shold be the most interesting new piece. I hope it works like I've planned. This should raise the uncertainty of thoughtless actions and force players to consider the internal ramifications of doing external things. Players will be able to spend money to influence the factions of their neighbors and perhaps stir up trouble.

All in all, I think that i have addressed most of the failings of both my previous games and created new opportunites for whole sets of new problems. I expect some tweaking to go one at the start as imbalances show up and need adjustment, but most of that should not be noticeable to players. **crosses fingers**

And to return to the original question. What do you all feel should be the player goals for their nations? What successes should be rewarded? For some it will be survive. It would be easy at this point to allow players to select secret goals and for me to provide rewards comenserate with reaching them. Modest goals, modest rewards; grand goals, grand rewards.

das: Thanks for your map suggestions, I'm working on yours and the others too.

Seconded.

As to Ethiopia: it would be nice to have it, ofcourse, but a) it was much smaller than that (centered in the Ethiopian Highlands) and b) you will definitely need to include Adal as well. Adal is probably a tributary state at the time, but that is not so difficult to reverse, as you probably know.Where was Adal in realtionship to Ethiopia?

Where was Adal in realtionship to Ethiopia?
On the Horn and Djibouti side. Remember that Ethiopia doesn't really have control of Ogaden yet, it's just the western side of the Highlands. And Adal hasn't broken away yet anyway, technically. :p

Well, a good way of doing Goals would be to make every player PM the mod with any goal to be attempted, preferably two (One major, and one minor fx). This would of course have been done with the first orders. After, say, ten turns, the mod will distribute points between the players scaled of a) how difficult the goal was and b) how succesful the goal has been fulfilled. Then players send new goals with the next order set (Or the same, if wanted/possible), and the game will continue.

This will all be done through PM since France does not want Spain to know that France will conquer her.

I know that some of you did not want this alt history to be part of the game. This is your chance to bow out gracefully. I think that it will make things much more interesting and challenging especially given Dis's fine work. So if you don't like the desert coastline where you want to settle, complain to him. ;)


You're just saying that so you can blame me whenever you feel like being mean ;). Though it's true that I took the pure world of the creator, and filled it with pitfalls, venom, and vice. :satan:


This brings us to the Inka et al. They each have a home in a place that they could easily call home and can have their own adventures until some lost Scotsman, wayward Chinaman or drunken Irish sailor stumbles upon them. Any players of those nations will get updates and maps reflecting their knowledge of their region, but they will not necessarily know exactly where they are in the world.

Also, since the colonizers don't know what lines beneath any particular culture, there may be less rush to wipe out the Aztecs to get to their tasty, tasty silver ;)

Well, a good way of doing Goals would be to make every player PM the mod with any goal to be attempted, preferably two (One major, and one minor fx). This would of course have been done with the first orders. After, say, ten turns, the mod will distribute points between the players scaled of a) how difficult the goal was and b) how succesful the goal has been fulfilled. Then players send new goals with the next order set (Or the same, if wanted/possible), and the game will continue.

This will all be done through PM since France does not want Spain to know that France will conquer her.My approach to goals would be much more casual and long term. They would be 100% voluntary with time horizons of 20-40 years (at 5 years/turn). Rewards might come in terms of Prestige, money, culture or initiative.

I don't think money should be a reward, actually, but prestige, culture and initiative is logical.

I don't think money should be a reward, actually, but prestige, culture and initiative is logical.
Money kinda makes sense too. It's like the Council of Nobles or its equivalent voting you (as monarch) extra cash monies just because you're awesome. Or something like that.

The problem with money is that it has to come from somewhere. Of course, your own nobles might give you stuff like that, making you richer, but I still think that general prestige bonuses (such as increased artinsanship (culture), respect (prestige), and initiative I actually have no idea what is in this NES).

There should be better mechanics for raising money (via war taxes, parliaments, etc, as well as the suggested banking), basically. That should make playing continental powers much more entertaining.

Hmm. I think I'll join this. Poland.

Hmm. I think I'll join this. Poland.
...anything else you'd like to say? :p

Ah hell, I'll try the sure to be doomed Aztecs.

...anything else you'd like to say? :p

Not really. As a relatively new NESer, I don't have anything to add. That and I just don't feel like reading 20+ pages of discussion.

There should be better mechanics for raising money (via war taxes, parliaments, etc, as well as the suggested banking), basically. That should make playing continental powers much more entertaining.Players will control tax rates and I can probably find a way to make "war taxes" different from regualr taxes in that they create a short term infusion of cash with different side effects. I would see a Parliament as a faction that was small in size, but with the possiblility of great influence and special powers. Of course special powers can cut both ways depending upon the loyalty of such a body. As a ruler you would have to find ways to keep your parliament loyal and willing to do your bidding.

I expect that the whole faction portion of this game will develop as we play and the creative play of people such as you figure out ways to distort my intentions into whole new shapes. ;)

Hmm. I think I'll join this. Poland.Welcome!

Ah hell, I'll try the sure to be doomed Aztecs.Welcome!

Not really. As a relatively new NESer, I don't have anything to add. That and I just don't feel like reading 20+ pages of discussion.It has been a slow unfolding of the game concepts andsome of the rules. Most of what has been posted will change in the final version. This is a new rule set and untested, but I think that most of the concepts are pretty sound. I expect to tweak the internal bits once play begins.

I've pretty much finished the mechanics of the stats and how all the pieces interact (except for this whole "war taxes" bit) and am building the trade interface with the basic stats. Once that is done, I will begin the nation tabs and stats. Once the mechanics are firm, I can finish the rules. The next step for players will be to provide me with faction information and nation color prefereences. Do not post those yet; I will have specific requests about factions and will process color requests in an orderly fashion of my own design. Not start date yet, My goal, though, is still February.

I am trying to avoid rule discussion. I'll just let this one form as is. I trust your judgment Beej.

These are a close to final draft of the rules. Your comments and questions are welcome. I am looking for major omissions and poor explanations that need to be fixed. You may also ask questions about any rule or sections.

Welcome to BirdNES 3 an updated reprise of “The New World”. This NES is a historical NES with alt history elements and is rooted in the world of OTLs 16th Century. It begins in 1490. Players are expected to assume the role of a nation and lead that nation to glorious success.

New Concepts
This game has several concepts that are new to my games and may have had little use in other NESes. I will introduce the concepts here, but each is further explained in the rules themselves.

Initiative Points represent the ability of a leader to act through his/her government agencies or agents. In game terms it will act as a constraint on the ability of players to do as much as they want whenever they want. The leader of a nation in turmoil may have little ability to act at all while his neighbor is able to initiate several important efforts. Players can act without initiative points, but incur great risk of unintended consequences if they do.

Wealth represents the prosperity of your nation as a whole. Where there is wealth, there is plunder.

Prestige is a measure of success at doing things from winning wars to discovering new lands. Prestige helps to keep the various factions happy.

Open ended spending: Spending in this game is open ended. If you have 10,000 gold to spend, you can spend it anyway you want in any amount. The only specified costs are for troops, cannon and ships and those will change over time and place. For example, with 10,000 gold you could recruit 5,000 new troops for 5,000 gold, invest 750 into your government practices, buy 4 new warships for 1000, fund a merchant enclave with 250, spend 500 to build support among your bureaucrats and another 500 to bribe your neighbor’s bureaucrats to be disloyal to him. The last 2000 you can add to your treasury. As a player you could substitute any combination of numbers that added to 10,000.

Factions are the internal groups that have influence and can affect your power and leadership. Factions may strengthen or weaken over time and some may disappear while new ones appear. They are the political forces at work in your nation. A sizable or influential faction that is disloyal to you can cause real problems.

Policies are not new to previous BirdNES players, but have not been used in the same way in others’ games. Policies are broad statements of intent that direct your government apparatus along a specified path. Policies don’t cost money, but can be instrumental in shaping our nations.

Order structure: I will set a structure orders that I expect to be followed reasonably closely. I do this so that it is easier for me to update and so I will make fewer mistakes. Part of that structure will be the requirement to include dates (the year at least) of when things happen.

Stories: Traditional NESes encourage in-thread stories as part of the on-going story. I want to re-direct that effort for this game and encourage players to include 100-500+ “stories” as part of their orders. Those stories should be descriptive of the efforts they are including in their orders for that turn. I will use them as part of the update. Now since what players want or expect to happen is not always what actually does happen, there will be times in which I will re-write bits and pieces. The pomp and ceremony of the start of your glorious campaign against the Turk may start out as you plan, but have a wholly different ending.

I am hoping that this approach will have two major effects. First, player efforts will be part of the game and the fabulous detail that many of you create will find its way into the updates. Second, it will make the updates easier and faster for me. I will be able to focus on transitions and outcomes and spend less time trying to create the settings for events. It is easier for me to edit that to create from scratch. I don’t have any firm limits on what these stories should be, but at this point I’m thinking that a quarter to a half page (in word) should be sufficient for most events; a page for more complex plots. If they are too long, I will cut them down. Since these stories are related to what you are trying to accomplish in your orders they shouldn’t be posted in the thread, but will see the light of day when the update is completed. Faction intrigues, assassination attempts, war plans, battles fought, sea voyages etc. are all fair game for these mini stories. You may write them in any style you want and include rich details of your nation and its events. Here are two examples of stories about a campaign that could have come from different players who were at war against the same enemy.

North Sea coast of Germany 1555
Mikolaj Jazlowieki surveyed the wreckage that had been Bremen as it lay beneath his perch in the cathedral spire. His 10 divisions had been unexpected cargo in the holds of Portuguese merchant ships and the city quite unprepared. His troops had spent the last 10 days pacifying the heretical Protestants who dominated the city and all of western Germany for that matter. The stupid bastards hadn’t rolled over and converted or died like he had thought. They had fought back and he had no choice, but to kill them all and burn their hiding places. It’s a pity, he thought, but such was the will of God. The summer would be a long one. He would now move south to connect up with his Spanish allies moving up the Rhine from Brussels and the Knights of St. Stephen moving down the Rhine from their headquarters inside the League of Strasburg.
Rhine Valley summer 1555
For Sir Hugo Berlin, Knight of the Order of St. Stephen, the ride up the Rhine had been exhilarating. The thousand knights in his two battalions raced against the other thousand knights who advanced up the eastern bank. The prize: Cologne. His troop had won by three days. The swathe of dead heretics and burned villages they left behind was wide and long. Petty nobles cowered in their castles or fled the avenging swords of the holy knights. Hesse and Nassau mustered a few divisions, but those were routed and then put to the sword when Spanish troops from Belgium closed in on their rear.

Nations & Roles

The nation roles are familiar to most NESers and I won’t discuss them here. Two other roles are less known: the Pope, ruler of the Papal States and Banking houses.

While the Pope has a small nation, his primary role is leader of the Catholic Church. His participation should reflect that role. The Pope can influence kings and church factions with money and perhaps lands and the ability to call for a crusade. If kings refuse to accommodate the Pope’s wishes or say yes and then do nothing, the Pope can use his influence on catholic factions to influence politics, religious pressure or peasant unrest. In addition, should a Pope excommunicate a king, then, perhaps he would call a crusade against said king forcing other kings to go to war against the heretic. If they don’t, then trouble would spread and well that could get interesting. The Pope’s stats will be constructed differently than the typical nation even if they appear similar.

Holy Roman Empire
Control of the HRE will convey some money and some prestige to the Emperor and provide him some clout in the factions of member nations. The HRE will also provide some troops in support of the Emperor.

Bankers:
Bankers are in the game to provide financing for nations that need money. They loan gold in any amount they have access to and can charge interest of their choosing. Bankers will have to arrange their own collections, but cannot use armies to do so. Bankers may refuse to make loans to any nation. Banks that spend money to set up offices in trade centers will earn income to help sustain their operations and raise capital. Bankers may arrange any investment deal that makes sense to them and for the time. They could loan money for an expedition and then share in any windfall profits or income from that venture. All loan arrangements need to be included in the orders for both parties.

Bankers can also invest in armies for hire and rent those troops to nations. They need not expand into this business if they do not want to.

Should they choose to, then they would recruit specific armies that could be hired:
6,000 Swiss pikemen with 6 cannon
4,000 Dutch Musketeers
They would set a price for each army based on its cost and upkeep. Unused armies could be disbanded, but to be rented, an army has to be “in inventory” at the start of the turn.

There will be at least one NPC banker/army broker to represent the rest of the market and keep the world safe from monopolies and price fixing.

Stats and Other Tracked Items of Importance

Initiative/Prestige/Culture: These three stats position your nation on the world stage, and are important for different reasons. Of the three Initiative Points are the most important

Initiative Points: these points control how active you can be during a given turn. They represent the capability (willingness?) of your government to carry out what you command. Initiative points are limited and you cannot spend more than you have without risk. They replenish each turn, but the recalculation could change the number you have available from turn to turn based on a variety of circumstances. Not every action consumes Initiative Pints (IP). They cannot be banked. IP are discussed in more detail below.

Prestige: Prestige is a measure of your nation’s standing. Your successes add to it and your failures detract from it. The most important impact of prestige on game play is that it encourages factional loyalty in spite of political differences. Discoveries, exploration, projects, conquests, wealth, tribute, etc. all contribute to the level of your nation’s prestige. Be aware, that a lack of prestige can strengthen your enemies and encourage disloyalty.

Culture: This number represents your culture score and allows you to compare the strength and influence of your nation’s culture on those around you. Your culture is a combination of your investments in things cultural and educational whether they are institutions, practices or related to particular items. A strong culture can be influential in overseas colonies or on sympathetic factions in neighboring nations.

Income/Treasury/Debt: these three items show the financial status of your nation. Income is what you received that turn in the way of cash to spend, your treasury is the cash available from previous turns, and your debt is what you owe others. Income and Treasury added together are what you can spend without borrowing. Players may borrow money even if they have other funds available.

Income mainly comes from taxes, tribute and plunder. This line shows you your particular income sources for the turn. Gifts from other nations or other odd sources of money will show up as a fourth number.

Economy/Trade/Wealth: Your economy is the value of your domestic activity; trade the value of regional and overseas trade; and wealth a measure of the current prosperity of your nation. Your economy and trade are the basis of your tax collections. All of these numbers will rise and fall during the game depending upon circumstances. Should your nation be plundered by another, the plunder they take home is based on the wealth of your nation. So if you are out for plunder, be sure to check out the wealth score of your potential targets. Wealth can be converted to cash as a rate posted in the stat updates. This quick way to raise money will have other effects and represents a variety of methods.

Stability/Policies permitted: The stability your nation is mostly based on the strength and loyalty of the various internal factions that are vying for power. Higher numbers are better. Particular faction details are listed separately. You cannot directly affect this score; you can only change it by changing the strength and loyalty of individual factions. The policies number tells you how many policies you may have in effect at one time. Policies are discussed in more detail below.

Policies: policies are broad efforts to shape aspects of your nation. A nation can have a policy about religious tolerance (or not), or land ownership, or trade, or education, or just about anything. Policies can be changed every turn, but each nation can have only as many policies as shown in this stat. Policies can have a big effect on the various factions in your nation; in fact, not having a policy about an important matter can have an impact on them. Policies are considered “in effect” until replaced. Allowing the Inquisition to operate in your nation would be a policy, as would, depriving peasants of land ownership. It costs IP to implement or change a policy.

Army/Navy/Cannon: these are the sizes of your army and navy in men and ships. Cannon count is listed at the end. The specific makeup of your forces is unspecified and players may establish that mix when they write orders. I expect the make up to be in line with what was historical in the 16th c. These numbers do not include routine garrisons which are assumed to be in place at all key locations. Expanding your army or navy costs Initiative Points, so be efficient.

Upkeep: This is the cost of maintaining your nation and military. National upkeep is all of the government offices, infrastructure, universities, roads, harbors etc. Army and Navy are the cost to keep your military fit for duty. Upkeep costs are generally based on how many troops and ships you have, so the larger your military, the higher your upkeep will be. Government policy can change the rate at which upkeep is charged.

The Army & Navy Descriptions tell you about your military compared to other nations. The Army line provides your commonly used weapons, city defenses, and level of army leadership. For your Navy you see your most advanced ship design, the type of combat your navy uses and your latest navigational advancement. Details on each are explained in the rules below.

Tax Rates/Efficiency/Corruption: Player-set tax rates for domestic collection and trade will determine how much money is extracted from your people. Higher rates will also influence the loyalty of the various factions in your nation. Tax efficiency is how good a job your tax collectors do in actually getting the money from people into the government coffers. If your tax rate is 50%, and your efficiency rate is also 50% then your actual rate for collecting is 50% of 50% or 25%. Policy and spending can influence this rate. Corruption is the percent of tax income that is skimmed away by the various factions. The stronger and more disloyal your factions, the higher your corruption rate will be.

Production Skill: This stat tells you what kind of production you are capable of. Policies and spending can change your production state. Production skill ranges from Artisan 1 to Artisan 4 and then from manufacturing 1 through manufacturing 5. The different levels convey different abilities and can affect the cost of things.

Religion: Your nation’s primary religious affiliation will be listed here, as well as, in the faction list. Other religions of significance may also be shown in the factions list. Players may change their religious affiliation, but doing so may have other affects.

Church Wealth: This number estimates the current plunder value of the dominant religion in your nation. This is the wealth that supports the primary church faction in your nation and, of course, taking that wealth, or a portion of it, will create resentment and bitterness among the faithful.

Useful Discoveries: As this game progresses, your nation may make discoveries that are useful. Such discoveries may affect other aspects of the game and your prestige. They will be listed here. In other cases you will learn from your neighbors

Maps & Charts: Here you will see a list of your explorations. Nations must have charted an area to establish a trading fort or colony. Maps and charts are detailed records of voyages and cannot be sold or passed along to other players until a nation has the necessary nautical skills to do so. Such an event would be noted in the “Useful Discoveries” stat.

Trade Routes: This is a list of the trade routes in which your nation is participating and which contribute to your trade economy. As your trading network expands, this list grows. Generally, water trade routes are developed though exploration and the use of Trading Forts in distant lands. Overland routes are opened through explorers or merchant expeditions depending upon whether or not the expedition is into “known” or “unknown” lands. Typically, regional trade is expanded by establishing merchants in important trading centers. See below for more details on trade.

Trading Forts: These are your contact points for connecting to distant areas of trading activity. Trading Forts are an important source of overseas trade income. You pay to establish and support them.

Colonies: are areas where you have established a population of settlers. Not every area can be colonized. Colonies have their own stats that are posted separately.

Details on Stats and How Things Work

Initiative Points: these points control how active you can be during a given turn. They represent the capability (willingness?) of your government to carry out what you command. Initiative points are limited and you cannot spend more than you have without risk. They replenish each turn, but the recalculation could change the number you have available from turn to turn based on a variety of circumstances. Not every action consumes Initiative Pints (IP). They cannot be banked.

Actions that will cost IP and unless otherwise noted the cost for each is 1 IP:
• Add or change a policy
• Declare war on a nation (3 nations, 3 points)
• Attack any nation or primitive peoples (PC or NPC) in a region where you have an established TF or colony
• Acting against a faction in your nation
• Start a project
• Buy troops or ships when not under attack
• Change state religion (costs 2)
• Set up espionage in a foreign nation
• Launch an exploration expedition
• Establish a trading fort
• Start a Colony
• Convert wealth to gold (costs 2)

Things that do not cost IP, but may need gold:
• Any spending internally not mentioned above
• Establish a merchant enclave in a foreign nation via an overland route.
• Borrowing money or paying debts
• Supporting factions in your nation or other nations
• Defending if attacked

Now, if you choose to enact something that requires IP and you do not have them to spend, then you may do so, but you can expect unintended consequences. As the game progresses, the items on the above lists may change or move from one list to the other.
[COLOR="Red"]

War

War will be expensive. Keeping large standing armies will be expensive. Building large fleets and maintaining them will be expensive. Wars will drain your economy. Wars on your land will drain your economy more. Wealth is there to be plundered. Keep in mind that the game is in the 16th C and your armies and generals are expected to behave like they are in the 16th C. If you are in Europe, do not expect that a 5,000 man strike force sent to conquer the Congo will have any chance of success, let alone Bengal.

Armies & Navies:
Each has a size stat that provides the number of men you currently have under arms or the number of warships you have available for duty. The Army and Navy description stats are discussed separately below. European nations will not have the economic capability to have anything but a small standing army as the game begins. Those nations will have to rely on hired troops to fight wars. The costs of those troops and cannon will be posted along with the stats after each update. For other nations the costs to add to or replace standing army troops and cannon will also be posted with the stats. Hired troops will automatically disappear after each turn and incur no upkeep like a standing army.

Armies
Sample Stat—Army Description: Harquebus /Bombards/Castles/Command

The Army Description stat will provide you with the basic information you need to know about your army, as well as, other armies. There you will find the common weapon types available, the kind of artillery you can use, the primary city defenses you employ, and the level of your military leadership.

Weapon types generally fall into two broad categories, pre-gunpowder and gunpowder. Each of these groups has finer gradations. For example, gunpowder weapons could be listed as harquebus, matchlocks, wheel locks, flintlocks etc. Pre gunpowder weapons are mostly melee weapons and could vary from those developed in medieval times to those used by African tribes or the Mongols, Incans and Aztecs. The stat descriptions will vary from player to player and from place to place. As less advanced nations come into contact with more advanced nations, the weapons they have available may change. Pre gunpowder weapons are number to show progress. Higher is better. The classifications are general and encompass a wide variety. You may customize weapons descriptions in your posts or orders to fit your culture.

Your cannon will be similarly described. Pre gunpowder nations may have developed stone throwing devices like catapults and trebuchets. Once a nation has gunpowder, then their artillery will be described along the lines of bombards, cast-iron cannon, field pieces, all the way up through “Napoleons” (the cannon used from the early 1800s through mid century).

“Defenses” is a category that describes your principal city defenses and your ability to overcome those defenses when they are used by others. By achieving a level you automatically are capable of utilizing all previous levels.

• City walls
• Grand city walls—as seen in Constantinople in 1450 or Ming Dynasty China
• Castles
• Siege 1—ability to effectively attack cities defended by any type of masonry city walls
• Fortifications—early attempts to respond to the appearance of bombards and early cannons.
• Siege 2—use of bombards and cannon to attack cities
• Trace italienne (star forts)
• Siege 3—siege techniques to attack star forts
• Battlefield fortifications—temporary, improvised defenses used in the 18th & 19th Centuries
• Trench warfare—as used from the mid 19th Century through the end of WW I

Major nations in this game will begin at the Siege 2 level and will have the ability to build fortifications and effectively attack them.

Military Leadership will describe how well your armies are trained and led. There are nine levels of leadership and each one conveys improved opportunities for victory on the battlefield. While the list does move in a distinct progression from basic drill to strategy, it should not be taken literally. The list represents progress in military command and practices. If your nation makes a major change in weapon type such as adopting gunpowder weapons, you could see a drop in military leadership as new approaches to training are learned. Typically once a nation reaches the command level it will not revert to a lower level. An army that is operating at the Combined Arms level will generally have an advantage over one that is at the Command level.

1-Drill, 2-Formation, 3-Tactics, 4-Siege, 5-Command, 6-Maneuver, 7-Combined Arms, 8-Organization, 9-Strategy

Players may spend money to make improvements in any of the four areas just discussed, but keep in mind that improvements in weapon types, artillery and defenses will spill over to your neighbors; advancements in military leadership will not.

Navies
Sample Stat—Navy Description: Galleon/Cannon Fire/Ocean Sailing

The Navy description is similar to the one used for the army. It lists the types of ships you have available, the type of naval warfare you can engage in and then a bit about how far along you are in maritime technology and practices.

“Ships in use” will include both large and small versions of galleys, galleasses, caravels, carracks, galleons, junks, frigates, etc. Ship types will tend to determine the kind of naval warfare you can engage in, but it is not necessarily a one-to-one relationship. Also advancement from one ship type to the next is not linear. Other factors may come into play. For example, you cannot move from galleys to galleasses without knowing about bombards. Also, a Scandinavian nation may not have any need to develop galleys that are more suitable for the calmer waters of the Mediterranean Sea.

As your ship type changes, so too will your style of battle. Navies that use galleys will engage in “ramming and boarding”; those navies that use galleons will rely primarily on cannon fire to win battles and so on. Nations can establish a “doctrine” about naval warfare that fits with their ship capability.

Naval Warfare:
• Ramming & Boarding
• Cannon fire and boarding
• Cannon fire dominates
• Squadron Command
• Fleet Command

Factions: factions are the various political or economic groups that can support or disrupt your nation’s stability. Each nation or region will have different types of factions. Each faction will have two values: its size and its loyalty. “Size” and “Loyalty” are then combined with other things to show its” Influence”. Peasant factions represent the overall mood of the peasants in your nation. Peasant dissatisfaction and rebellion can lead to severe disruption of your economy and lead to other factions becoming less loyal. Factions can also be influenced by other players who may want to contribute to them and their particular cause at your expense. Spending money on a faction is one way to encourage loyalty.
• Loyalty is measured from -5 to +5
• Size is measured from 0 to 10
• Influence is a combination that can range from positive (good) to negative (not so good)

The factions listed below are just examples and pretty generic. Players will be able to fine tune factions to fit more closely with the nature of their nation.

• Ruler—those leaders and nobles who are ardent supports of the current ruler. Such a faction is likely to be rather small and strongly loyal. Should they turn against you, they could easily topple your regime.
• Bureaucracy—a nation with an entrenched bureaucracy (like China) will likely have such a faction. It could be large and important.
• Religion—catholic, protestant, Buddhist, whatever. At some point European nations will likely have at least 2 religious factions. Religious factions can be large or small and can change size with some speed if the call of god comes to them.
• Land owners—wealthy lords who control lots of land from which they draw power. They might not like the idea of distributing land to peasants.
• Generals—in a military society, the army might play a strong role in politics and deserve its own faction. In most cases this will be a small group.
• Merchants—in a trading nation, merchants may well be a powerful force.
• Peasants—every nation will have a peasant faction. This one will be large and when they get upset, prone to causing trouble.

Exploration

Much of this map in this game starts off black. The only way to roll back the shroud is to explore. Ships can explore coastlines and explorers can trek into the interior of unknown lands to discover what lies there. Each expedition whether by land or sea cost an IP and should be funded. Better funding encourages success; little or no funding tends to waste men ships and initiative. Explorers can put you in contact with other nations and peoples. As a nation explores various areas, their maps & charts stat will get populated. The success of sea explorations is influenced by the level of naval advances a nation has, its ships, and the skills and experience of their crews. Once a coastline has been explored a nation can take other actions in that area such as arrange trade, settle colonists or attack coastal locations. Players should keep time in mind when planning long distance explorations. In 1520 it took 2-3 years to sail around the world and almost as long for a trading ship to go from Europe, around Africa, to India and then make the return trip. Success in such ventures was dependent upon catching the correct seasonal winds so that you didn’t starve or die of scurvy from being at sea too long.

Circumnavigation of the world may be attempted in a single turn. While the initiating player must start the effort with some direction noted, the final route taken and lands discovered will be up to the vagaries of fate. A skilled captain and crew will improve the odds of success. And you should not forget to fund such a venture.

Trade

Trade falls into two categories: regional and long distance. Regional trade is mostly automatic. I’ve divided the world up into regions. All nations within a region automatically trade with one another and the value of that trade is rooted in the strength of each of the national economies. War in a region will affect trade as will rebellion. If a nation wants to establish trade with a neighboring region, the player must set up a merchant enclave in a trading center in that region. Funding such a venture is a must and permission is not needed unless a nation has a policy against foreign merchants within its borders. Having a merchant enclave in a region will link that region to your nation for trading purposes if you can trace a chain of enclaves connecting your nation to each of the other nations. For example, France could set up an merchant enclave in Cairo and connect France to Egypt and Middle Eastern Trade. These chains of enclaves build into overland trade routes and trade routes (TR) add to your trade based income and wealth.

Trade Routes can also be established over the sea lanes. Once a nation has mapped a particular coast it can set up a trading fort (TF) to establish connections with the locals and serve as a base for trade with that region. Such forts cost money to establish and maintain. They can be attacked and captured or destroyed. All TF have a small garrison to protect them against the incidental attack. Players may reinforce those garrisons if they choose. Again, keep in mind that it might take a year for a handful of ships to transport a few hundred men halfway around the world. Don’t even think about moving thousands of men in such an effort.

As the game begins, some TRs already exist for some players. Trade produces both money and wealth. Here are the known regions of the world:


Western Europe
England
France
Spain
Portugal
Austria
Saxony
Brandenburg
HRE States
Papal States
Venice
Ireland
Scotland
Genoa

Eastern Europe
Kalmar
Prussia
Hungary
Poland/Lithuania
Denmark
Sweden
Muscovy

Middle East
Mameluk Egypt
Ottoman Empire
Persian States
Mughals

India
Delhi
Rajput
Ahmadnagar
Bijapur
Golconda
Orissa
Bengal
Vijayanagar
Gondwana
Gujerat
Malwa

East Asia
North China
South China
Japan

SE Asia
Ayutthaya
Malacca
Annam
Cambodia
Laos
Philippines
Indonesia

Sub Saharan Africa
Ethiopia
Songhai

Central Asia
Various Hordes in decay



Colonies

Sometimes a player will want to establish a colony on foreign soil. Colonies are more complicated than trading forts and more limited in where they can be established. For the most part two general rules apply to founding a colony:
1. Colonies can only be established in areas of where the climate is not too dissimilar from that of the mother nation
2. There cannot be an existing civilization of some substance and sophistication that already has control of that area.

In practical terms this means that most of the “known” areas of the map cannot be colonized. I suspect that there are some areas that cannot be seen at the start that will be suitable once they are discovered. I will let players know if they attempt to colonize an area that cannot be. Once a colony is set up it will have stats. Here are three examples:

• Mexico: Established (Spain) 3/0/2.8 Iron
• Peru: Expanding (Spain) 6/0/9.2 Gold
• Newfoundland: Surviving (Scotland) 0/0/1.5 Timber
Name of the colony, status, (home nation) economy/trade value/wealth and lastly, resources of note if any. The wealth number provides a reference point for plunder available.

Spending:
You can spend money anyway you like, on anything that can be bought or built. But to help guide you in writing orders and deciding how to spend your money you can refer to the following. You may spend as much or as little of your gold each turn as you like. You can spend as much or as little on any particular effort as you like. Gold not spent will accumulate in your treasury. All upkeep costs will be removed prior to stat posting so what you see in your stats is what you have to spend. Spending too little is mostly a waste as is spending too much. If you seem to consistently over or under spend I will let you know.

Most spending will fall into one of the categories listed below. Each has a brief overview of how you might think about allocating your money. There are some reoccurring themes in the list that will be addressed first.

“Practices” and “institutions” are two important concepts. “Practices” are the way things are done; “institutions” are more concrete: bricks and mortar and personnel. Practices are the “rules” of behavior governing the way things are done. How you collect taxes is a “practices” issue. Improving your tax collection methods is an investment in government practices. A university is an institution. Building one is in investment in a cultural institution. You will see both items repeated in the categories below. For game purposes please do not just say that you are spending X money on government practices. I need more detail. Tell me specifically what are spending it on and what you want to happen because of the spending. Your specificity will make sure that I allocate the spending to the correct stat. And that allocation is an important aspect of the game even though you cannot see how it works.

Economy: In this day and age (the 16th Century) that mostly meant food production of one sort or another whether it involved crops, animals or seafood. A smaller portion of one’s economy is related to “making stuff”. That is called “production” in this game. Investing money in any of the areas listed below will improve your economy in general and specifically increase your capability in the specific area you designate.
• Production
• Food
• Infrastructure

Government: here one needs to identify specific institutions or practices which one wants to build, implement or improve.
Culture: If you want to improve your culture, then cultural practices or institutions could be created, expanded or improved. Religion, education, and the Arts all fall under this category.
• Cultural Institutions
• Cultural Practices
• Cultural Items
• Religion

Military: there are lots of ways to spend money on your military. In addition to those listed, it helps to spend a little to support your war efforts directly.
• Troops—buy or hire troops to fight your wars
• Weapons—invest in ways to improve your army’s arms and armor.
• Artillery—look for ways to make your artillery more useful and effective
• Ships—buy warships
• Ship design and construction—keeping your navy up-to-date with the latest designs could mean the difference between success and failure on the high seas.
• Military Leadership—invest in improving your army through better commanders and training
• Naval Warfare Tactics—make your warships more effective in battle by investing in better ways to fight at sea.
• Defense—find ways to improve the defense of your cities and overcome the improvements made by your enemies.

The only established costs are for troops, ships and cannon and they can change over time.
1 soldier = 1 gold
1 cannon = 50 gold
Galleys = 200 gold
Converted merchantmen = 150 gold
Galleasses = 250 gold
Dhows =100 gold (Indian Ocean nations only)
Caravels = small junks = 200
Carracks = medium Junks = 250 gold
Galleons = Lg. Junks = 300 gold

Exploration: For those nations that choose to explore the world, there are ways to increase the chances of successful expeditions.
• Navigation—ocean sailing was new in the 16th Century and ships got lost and sometime just disappeared. Improvement in navigation can help.
• Exploration—don’t forget to spend a little to support and supply your nautical explorations
• Captains & Crews—captains and crews are the unsung heroes of a discovering new worlds; the better ones are more successful.

Trade: Trade will be an important source of national income; trade practices and institutions can make it even better. You will need to spend money to establish trading forts or enclaves and to finance overland merchant expeditions. An overseas trading company would be an example of an institution you could fund. The way you treat native populations who are supplying you with goods or raw materials might be considered trade practices.

Colonies: Colonies cost money to establish and may require maintenance to keep them going until they are sufficiently stable to fend for themselves and then produce trade or wealth for the mother country. Money spent early in the life of a colony usually pays off in the long run. You may invest in the institutions and practices of any of your colonies in order to improve them. Colonial investments can vary widely. You could invest in plantations to grow crops like sugar cane, or invest in the slave trade to bring workers to those plantations
Espionage: Keeping tabs on your friends and enemies is always a good idea. You might consider an internal secret police that watches your nation’s factions and for spies from other nations, or you might want to send agents to snoop about in the business of your neighbors. Such networks take money to get going and a bit now and again to keep them running smoothly.

Limits on Spending:
Because spending guidelines are pretty vague, players might overspend thinking that it will bring faster results. Or a player might try to buy a bigger army than is realistic. If you overspend, I will cut you off at the correct level and return the excess to your treasury.

Borrowing: Players may borrow in any agreed upon amount from PC or NPC Bankers. Such arrangements need to be in your orders, but any deal making or collections happen between players. The mod will not enforce collections, just make note of failures to pay.

Projects are possible, but less important than in an Ancient Age game. Let me know what you want to do and the effect you are looking for, and I will let you know the cost and time.

End of Rules

They look good and are quite detailed Birdjaguar. I have one question though. Under "Defenses" is each bullet point a level, or are Siege 1, 2, and 3 the only levels?

They look good and are quite detailed Birdjaguar. I have one question though. Under "Defenses" is each bullet point a level, or are Siege 1, 2, and 3 the only levels?Each is a level. Once you reach castles, then the next step is to learn to lay siege to them. Most nations will begin with Siege 2.

• City walls
• Grand city walls—as seen in Constantinople in 1450 or Ming Dynasty China
• Castles
• Siege 1—ability to effectively attack cities defended by any type of masonry city walls
• Fortifications—early attempts to respond to the appearance of bombards and early cannons.
• Siege 2—use of bombards and cannon to attack cities
• Trace italienne (star forts)
• Siege 3—siege techniques to attack star forts
• Battlefield fortifications—temporary, improvised defenses used in the 18th & 19th Centuries
• Trench warfare—as used from the mid 19th Century through the end of WW I

They are detailed, but I am hoping tha details now will reduce questions later and help players understand how things work. And by answering questions now, I can fix problems before teh game starts.

My current list of players:

Spain: Lucky moose
France: The Strategos
England: Lightfang
Scotland: Foolish Icarus
Brandenburg: Bombshoo
Bavaria: Matt0088
Portugal: Warhead
Austria: Fantasmo
Genoa: Charles Li

Moscow: das
Teutonic Knights: Dachs
Denmark (Kalmar Union, includes Sweden): Lord Joakim
Poland: Stuck in Pi
Hungary: Qoou

Vijayanagar: Sp1023
Ottoman Turks: Silver2039
China: Azale
Ayutthaya: Condor green
Ethiopia: Yui108
Egypt: Abaddon
Songhai: Frozen in Ice


Inka: Soldierchild
Aztecs; Adrogans

Non Nation Roles:
European Banker: Masada
English Banker: Alex944
Pope: Banana Lee

Tenative Interest:
Japan: HMS Vanguard

Other choices still open:
Rajput
Bengal
Mughals:
Persians (several options here)
Mayan revival
Venice
Sultanate of Delhi:
Malacca Sultanate

I am not sure I like how orders are set up with the story form. How does one go about giving sufficient strategic, and tactical details in a short story? The format of such type of orders seem odd. Feels like I would be unable to cover everything that needs to be covered sufficiently well.

And will thing be broken down on a yearly basis as in the previous birdNES?

With regard to the initiative points, must that be a physical representation it strikes me as somewhat restrictive. If people do excessive things then their plans fail or go awry and they get punished in some fashion. I don't see the nessecity to give this a physical stat now. Suppose I use all my initiative points on building a giant mosque, a bridge across the straits, a road to Damascus, and a massive trade fleet. Then suppose I get invaded, does the defense require intiative points or will that be done automatically. Must all intative points be spent every turn, can they be banked?

Perhaps declaring war on a major power should cost more initiative points than minor powers?

I am not sure I like how orders are set up with the story form. How does one go about giving sufficient strategic, and tactical details in a short story? The format of such type of orders seem odd. Feels like I would be unable to cover everything that needs to be covered sufficiently well. I have not posted the order strucuture yet. The stories would not replace detailed descriptions of what you want to do, just what might go into the update about any of your initiatives. The idea is tomove player stories from the thread to the updates. In your orders you can provide lots of other details not covered in the stories.

And will thing be broken down on a yearly basis as in the previous birdNES?I expect so. Each turn will be 5 years and I will move through the update by year. so if you plan an invasion for 1492 and another player plans an event in 1494, your plans will go first. Hence the importance of dates.

With regard to the initiative points, must that be a physical representation it strikes me as somewhat restrictive. If people do excessive things then their plans fail or go awry and they get punished in some fashion. I don't see the nessecity to give this a physical stat now. Suppose I use all my initiative points on building a giant mosque, a bridge across the straits, a road to Damascus, and a massive trade fleet. Then suppose I get invaded, does the defense require intiative points or will that be done automatically. Must all intative points be spent every turn, can they be banked?The constraint of having a fixed number of IP formalizes the fact that players/rulers cannot do whatever they want and that there are constraints on power. As stated, players may do more, but beyond the limit, success is more difficult. Also as stated, defense never costs IP. And no IP cannot be banked. They regenerate each turn based on 6 factors which include factional support, among others, as part of the equation.

Initiative Points will also slow the game speed a bit since players will have to choose what is most important to accomplish each turn. Your road to Damascus may be more important than the bridge over the straits (???) and therefore the bridge waits until next turn.

Now I've left open the option to act without spending IP forthose who choose to ignore the constraints of their flawed governemntal apparatus. ;)

Perhaps declaring war on a major power should cost more initiative points than minor powers?
Open for discussion.

BTW, IP spending is secret and will only appear in your orders.

Will you allow the destruction of factions?

Will you allow the destruction of factions?Absolutely! Now you cannot destroy the annoying peasants who produce all your food or the bureaucrats who run your government. And from time to time new factions might well appear.

Eliminating Protestants was popular in Europe at this era. ;)

Absolutely! Now you cannot destroy the annoying peasants who produce all your food or the bureaucrats who run your government. And from time to time new factions might well appear.

Eliminating Protestants was popular in Europe at this era. ;)

You can't destroy all bureaucrats yes, but I can imagine certain situations particularly for the Ottomans in which certain portions of the government and military may warrant destruction. Namely rebellious beyliks and jassinaries.

Open for discussion.

BTW, IP spending is secret and will only appear in your orders.

Well, I think it would definitely be realistic as long as initiative points are being described as government capability or willingness, but I'm not sure if its addition would be worth the effort. Also, I guess some way of categorizing nations as major or minor would need to be devised but there might already be a stat that would suite that role.

You can't destroy all bureaucrats yes, but I can imagine certain situations particularly for the Ottomans in which certain portions of the government and military may warrant destruction. Namely rebellious beyliks and jassinaries.This is where either policy or direct action can be effective. There is no reason you cannot act against any internal force you seem an obstacle whether or not it is formal faction or not. Now keep in mind that there could be side effects of major purges. In your orders, you would go into details about how it takes place, and then in a short story you demonstrate some particular intersting episode for everyone to read about.

Well, I think it would definitely be realistic as long as initiative points are being described as government capability or willingness, but I'm not sure if its addition would be worth the effort. Also, I guess some way of categorizing nations as major or minor would need to be devised but there might already be a stat that would suite that role.
It is already included and automatically calculates every turn, so at this point it is no extra effort on my part. It would not be difficulat to come up with some compilation of stats to determine whether or nt a nations fell into the major or minor category. As I said I'm open to player thoughts on the question.

I am blown away. That is great! I will try officially try Genoa.

Gold V.S. Approx Worth in Spoiler
Although I would want a few comparisons of money. Like 1 gold for 1 Soldier at start. How much money does it take to buy a padded uniform, a musket, a power-horn, about 50 balls and misc stuff in general? To simplify I would peg it at about 200/500 Dollars in modern to give a guy a gun made by a company, train him with other guys and stuff.

So if I generalize, how much food can 200-500 dollars buy for a circumnavigation trip?

Well, in modern times... I am rambling. But I think it is a good Idea for a peg, like 1gold is about enough to get 1 month supply maybe, and connect it with upkeep... (1 gold = 1 Soldier worth of training, weapons and armour = About how much supplies?)

I am blown away. That is great! I will try officially try Genoa.

Gold V.S. Approx Worth in Spoiler
Although I would want a few comparisons of money. Like 1 gold for 1 Soldier at start. How much money does it take to buy a padded uniform, a musket, a power-horn, about 50 balls and misc stuff in general? To simplify I would peg it at about 200/500 Dollars in modern to give a guy a gun made by a company, train him with other guys and stuff.

So if I generalize, how much food can 200-500 dollars buy for a circumnavigation trip?

Well, in modern times... I am rambling. But I think it is a good Idea for a peg, like 1gold is about enough to get 1 month supply maybe, and connect it with upkeep... (1 gold = 1 Soldier worth of training, weapons and armour = About how much supplies?)Thank you and welcome.

I could add more detail to the cost of soldiers, but I did not think that it added any real play value to the game. I choose 1 gold = 1 soldier because it is very easy to calculate and remember. Now I can vary that from region to region and over time if I choose. Trying to figure "real" costs for the 16th C in today's dollars for multiple regions would be too much work for little pay off. Things are distorted enough when you have non money cultures like the Aztecs and Inkas. This is a compromise for playability.

I notice levies aren't mentioned in the stats, nor are mercenaries. Both are important components of warfare of this time period. Will they be present?

Also manpower should be under consideration, Asian nations have far larger tax bases, and far superior tax bases to Europe. If I recall correctly the Mughals were able to tax something like 80% of their population or some ridiculously high percentage due to their highly efficient bureaucracy structure. And of course they were able to raise armies numbering in the hundreds of thousands unheard of in Europe. Vijayanagar itself for instance is known to have fielded a force of 100,000 and more during various points in time. Perhaps it should be easier for Asian states to raise armies by being cheaper or adding a multiplier for Asian units.

I notice levies aren't mentioned in the stats, nor are mercenaries. Both are important components of warfare of this time period. Will they be present?

Also manpower should be under consideration, Asian nations have far larger tax bases, and far superior tax bases to Europe. If I recall correctly the Mughals were able to tax something like 80% of their population or some ridiculously high percentage due to their highly efficient bureaucracy structure. And of course they were able to raise armies numbering in the hundreds of thousands unheard of in Europe. Vijayanagar itself for instance is known to have fielded a force of 100,000 and more during various points in time. Perhaps it should be easier for Asian states to raise armies by being cheaper or adding a multiplier for Asian units.

Not really, most european states due their size, centralisation and compactness by this era would generally have more effective taxation systems, and did tax more per capita (for example the Ming would have tax rates aroudn 10%, due to the size of the empire and the difficulty in transporting taxes, particularly non-monetary ones).

The Asian powers did have larger revenue streams and army sizes because they were much more populous and wealthier polities (which should be accounted for in the stats), not due to inherently more effective institutions or productivity.

The revenue system is an important part of any government and the Mughals had a fairly well organized system of revenue collection. Land revenue continued to remain an important source of income for the state. Other sources were trade, industry, transport etc Around the time Akbar ascended the throne the land revenue system was fairly disorganized with a mix of nobles, landlords etc. involved in land ownership and revenue collection. Akbar realized the importance of an efficient land revenue policy for an expanding empire. Initially he tried out a disastrous experiment which eventually had to be cancelled. He attempted a new system, in which he first abolished all current land holdings. The empire was then divided into a series of land holdings, each yielding a fixed amount of revenue every year. These areas were then allotted to an officer called a Krori , whose job was the collection of revenue and encourage cultivation (which in turn would boost revenue). However the Krori's turned out to be corrupt tyrants at whose hands the cultivators went through tremendous suffering. The system was quickly abolished and the earlier system restored. In 1852 AD an important new development took place in the re-organizational effort of land revenue. Todar Mall was appointed to the post Dian-I-Ashraf . A new system was established which had three divisions.

- A survey to measure land - The classification of the various types of land (degree of fertility etc) - An annual survey to determine the rate of taxation.

The system was essentially fair, as the land would be only assessed for the portion where cultivation was done. The tax was one third of the produce, and the landlords could pay the tax in either cash or kind. The monetary value of the crops varied depending on the type of crop and the prevailing market conditions.

To assist in the purposes of administration and revenue collection, the Mughal Empire was divided into a hierarchical system of areas. The empire was first divided into a number of subahs . The subahs were then divided into paraganas . A paraganas was a union of several villages. At each stage there were several officers who supervised operations like revenue assessment and collection etc. Their orders were to collect revenue in a just and efficient manner and not put undue pressure on villagers, especially if they had suffered a natural disaster. Apparently there was tremendous accountability, because we have records of even high ranking officials like provincial governors being dismissed after complaints were made against them by the citizens. The entire system worked fairly well, the landlords now had a sense of security with a developed system and were given a fair amount of flexibility in paying their dues. Although the tax rate was on the higher side (one third of the total produce) it was pretty reasonable considering the emperors abolished various other taxes.

I think you underestimate the level of sophistication of the tax structure. The bureaucracy was fairly large and capable at least earlier on, I'll try and find the percentage I think it was in one of my books, but I recall it was quite high certainly more than 10%.

I notice levies aren't mentioned in the stats, nor are mercenaries. Both are important components of warfare of this time period. Will they be present?Mercenaries are the hired troops provided by the Bankers or Mod.

Also manpower should be under consideration, Asian nations have far larger tax bases, and far superior tax bases to Europe. If I recall correctly the Mughals were able to tax something like 80% of their population or some ridiculously high percentage due to their highly efficient bureaucracy structure. And of course they were able to raise armies numbering in the hundreds of thousands unheard of in Europe. Vijayanagar itself for instance is known to have fielded a force of 100,000 and more during various points in time. Perhaps it should be easier for Asian states to raise armies by being cheaper or adding a multiplier for Asian units.Asian nations will be able to raise larger armies and support standing armies too. They will have larger economies and could have less expensive recruiting costs.

I will think about levies.

I think you underestimate the level of sophistication of the tax structure. The bureaucracy was fairly large and capable at least earlier on, I'll try and find the percentage I think it was in one of my books, but I recall it was quite high certainly more than 10%.At the start in 1490, the Mughals will have a small nation, but if the progress to a grand empire, there is no reason they couldn't develop such a well run system for taxation. The player will have to invest wisely in his governemnt and control corrupting faction influences.

I think you underestimate the level of sophistication of the tax structure. The bureaucracy was fairly large and capable at least earlier on, I'll try and find the percentage I think it was in one of my books, but I recall it was quite high certainly more than 10%.

For Ming China I'm pretty sure the 10% figure is on the money. By this time, the Ming had already started a slow decline and the taxing efficiency was never really that great to begin with.

Not a huge fan of the greater story emphasis, but meh.
Eliminating Protestants was popular in Europe at this era.
What're those? :confused:
You can't destroy all bureaucrats yes, but I can imagine certain situations particularly for the Ottomans in which certain portions of the government and military may warrant destruction. Namely rebellious beyliks and jassinaries.
Janissaries aren't the problem yet, they're mostly the solution. This is 1490. :p
I will think about levies.
They are essential parts of an army in this time period and definitely need to be accounted for.

I'm also kind of interested in how my military will work, being as I'm a knightly order...

What're those? :confused:well we'll have to see just how good the Pope turns out to be at handling factions.

They are essential parts of an army in this time period and definitely need to be accounted for.Levies will be included, probably as half price troops of lesser quality who disappear after the war.

Question: were they used everywhere or were they of greater use in some areas of the world than others?

I'm also kind of interested in how my military will work, being as I'm a knightly order...[/QUOTE]IIRC, I had knights (of St. Stephen) in BirdNES 1 and Thlayli recruited them rather than mercenaries. They were better than regular troops but cost more. What would be the expected size range of your knight armies? Weren't they recruited from a wide area and not just Prussia kinda like the French Foreign Legion?

These kinds of specific questions about a nation are excellent and will allow me to fine tune things.

For Ming China I'm pretty sure the 10% figure is on the money. By this time, the Ming had already started a slow decline and the taxing efficiency was never really that great to begin with.

Hah, tax efficiency in Dynastic China was for the most part of her history a joke :p

@Birdjaguar, so basically the banker role would involve everything from being a landowner to a merchant? Sweet.

I rather like the story format though I guess removing all the stories from a NES wold be somewhat lamented.

Hah, tax efficiency in Dynastic China was for the most part of her history a joke :p

@Birdjaguar, so basically the banker role would involve everything from being a landowner to a merchant? Sweet.

I rather like the story format though I guess removing all the stories from a NES wold be somewhat lamented.It wouldn't remove them. Players could continue to write stories and post them. I'm suggesting that stories be included in orders that pertain directly to events that players foresee taking place because of what they put them in their orders. Say you attempt an assassination of a troublesome opponent. In your orders you would describe how you want to go about the attempt and the money you are spending to accomplish it, all the typical things that go in orders. then I'm asking that you write a 100-200 word "story" about the attempt. It could be from any perspective you choose (real time, narrative, third person etc.). I would then include that story as part of the update. If it turns out that the attempt fails, I would change your ending to fit mine.

Players could still post other stories as oftten as they like, probably to earn some cultural benefit as well. :)

I'm not sure about bankers being landowners, so tell me more.

Well, land is a rather safe investment wth a relatively stable income compared to the other possible venues :p

Well, land is a rather safe investment wth a relatively stable income compared to the other possible venues
Yes, but how do you see that in terms of the game?

Well, maybe factions own parts of land in a kingdom as Estate holders: Private land (owned by government or a faction) can be sold for private profit and factions can sell to each other. Public land (Non faction and Non Government) can be sold. If you go into land you become a faction: hiring workers to work it and setting up markets ect. (This is what I would say if I was modding a nes. :P)

I guess a Royal Church faction is in most nations, holding some land. Although major holdings can be shown minor ones perhaps won't be.

Well, maybe factions own parts of land in a kingdom as Estate holders: Private land (owned by government or a faction) can be sold for private profit and factions can sell to each other. Public land (Non faction and Non Government) can be sold. If you go into land you become a faction: hiring workers to work it and setting up markets ect. (This is what I would say if I was modding a nes. :P)

I guess a Royal Church faction is in most nations, holding some land. Although major holdings can be shown minor ones perhaps won't be.

I am not too familiar with Genoese politics, but I would think that these might be appropriate factions for you:

Leader is the Doge
Merchant Council
Catholic Church
Peasants (less important in Genoa than in larger more agrarian nations.)

The Republic of Genoa (Italy) was technically a communal republic in the early Middle Ages, but in actuality it was an oligarchy ruled by a small group of merchant families, from whom were selected the Doges of Genoa.

Of all the "perpetual" doges of Genoa who ruled for their lifetime, only one ruled for more than eight years. Many resigned or were driven out before taking office. Some failed to complete a single day in power. Between 1339 and 1528, only four doges were legally elected. "Genoese doges were essentially faction leaders, in charge of the defense of Genoa and her territory", Christine Shaw has said. "Some of them liked to see themselves as effectively lords of the city, but they were not." Genoa did not trust its doges; they tied them to executive committees, kept them on a small budget, and kept them apart from the communal revenues held at the "Casa di san Giorgio"

In doing a little research on levy troops, I found this article about army sizes that may be of interest to some of you.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/imptrooplevy1422.html

That reminded me of that scene in LOTR: Return of the King when they are rattling off numbers from Volunteers and Levies lead by local lords in various parts of Gondor.

This many thousands from here.
Archers from there.
Great Knights from here.
Axemen from here.

Yep. I wish I had that book right now.

Also, my last post at 475 was responce to the question "Yes, but how do you see that in terms of the game?"

Also, notably is the House of Savoy, who tried lots of times to take Genoa. For that matter I will use their rebelionic spirit to my advantage. However, I will make sure some family stay for some time if the act of overthrowing their Doge takes alot of economy and iniciative points.

I am not too familiar with Genoese politics, but I would think that these might be appropriate factions for you:

Leader is the Doge
Merchant Council
Catholic Church
Peasants (less important in Genoa than in larger more agrarian nations.)

Actually, Genoa at this time was ruled by a governor of Milan, Agostino Adorno. Genoa factions tended to revolve around personalities and families, and thus would look something like this: Adorno Family (Rulers); Campofregoso Family (which actually at this time was further subdivided between Battista Campofregoso and his uncle Cardinal Paolo Campofregoso); Fieschi Family. You might also add the Bank of Saint George, which controlled most of the public spending.


In doing a little research on levy troops, I found this article about army sizes that may be of interest to some of you.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/imptrooplevy1422.html

This is on the low side for the 1490s. More accurate numbers would be from the French Italian Wars of 1490s which had 12,000-25,000 men per side (as a side note, France raising 25,000 men put it into serious debt).

Question: were they used everywhere or were they of greater use in some areas of the world than others?
As far as Europe goes, militiamen of some kind are a persistent feature of most armies, and actually make up a majority of forces in some of them for more than a hundred years after this time frame. Standing armies are hella expensive and somewhat uncommon. The French have only had their compagnies d'ordonnance for a few decades, after all.
]IIRC, I had knights (of St. Stephen) in BirdNES 1 and Thlayli recruited them rather than mercenaries. They were better than regular troops but cost more. What would be the expected size range of your knight armies? Weren't they recruited from a wide area and not just Prussia kinda like the French Foreign Legion?
In this period, the knights would probably comprise something like a tenth of a force from 5,000 to 8,000 men strong. The other ninety percent are their personal men-at-arms, which fight under the direction of a knight (each of these units is a banner). A significant other portion would be made up by mercenaries, probably something equal to or greater than the knightly portion (during the Thirteen Years' War earlier in the century, Hochmeister von Erlichshausen began the war with 15,000 soldiers, about half of whom were mercenaries). It's true that the Order contains significant estates elsewhere in Germany and Italy, but those are somewhat limited compared to the Prussian and Livonian properties now, and the German master (who is in charge of the stuff in the HRE) is mostly a recruiter - this is obviously a highly important job :p - and treasurer now.

Question: were they used everywhere or were they of greater use in some areas of the world than others?

Azabs

Apart from the Janissaries, in 1389 the Ottoman Army introduced a system of conscription: when needed, every town and village were obliged to provide a fully equipped conscript at the recruiting office created by the order of the Sultan.

This new force of irregular infantrymen was called the Azabs and they were used in many ways: to build roads and bridges for the army, to support the supplies for the front-line, and sometimes they were even used as cannon fodder to slow down enemy advance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_the_Ottoman_Empire

I'd say pretty much everyone used it.

And it was used by the Vijaynagar Empire for instance. This describes the various vassals of the empire and the forces under their command.

The chief of the guard Pemmasani Ramalinga Nayaka (also known as Cama Nayak) led the advance with thirty thousand infantry (archers, men with shields, musqueteers and spearmen) and a thousand horse and his elephants. After him went the contingents of Timmappa Nayaka, Adapa Nayaka, Kumara Virayya, and Ganda Raya, the governor of the city of Vijayanagar. The other well-known nayakas were Velugoti Errappa Nayani, Rao Jayadeva Nayani, Raja Jagadeva , Rayachuri Rami Nayudu, Hande Mallaraya, Boya Ramappa, Saluva Nayudu, Tipparasu Ayyappa Nayudu, Akkappa Nayudu, Krishnappa Nayudu, Kannada Basavappa Nayudu, Saluva Mekaraja, Matla Ananta Raja, Bommireddy Nagareddy, Basava Reddy, Vithalappa Nayudu and Veerama Raja. All their soldiers were well armed, the archers and musqueteers with their quilted tunics and the shieldmen with their swords and poignards in their girdles. The shields were so large that there was no need for armour to protect the body. The horses were in full clothing and elephants had large howdahs from which four men fight on each side of them. The elephants were completely clothed. Sharp knives were fastened to their tusks. Several cannon were also taken. About twenty thousand washermen and courtesans accompanied the army. In the rear with the king, but always on the road in front of him, twelve thousand men with leather water bags placed themselves along the road to give water to those in need.

The empire was among the first in India to use long range artillery commonly manned by foreign gunners. (Gunners from present day Turkmenistan were considered the best).[39] Army troops were of two types: The king's personal army directly recruited by the empire and the feudal army under each feudatory. King Krishnadevaraya's personal army consisted of 100,000 infantry, 20,000 cavalrymen and over 900 elephants. This number was only a part of the army numbering over 1.1 million soldiers, a figure that varied as an army of two million has also been recorded along with the existence of a navy as evidenced by the use of the term Navigadaprabhu (commander of the navy).

Actually, Genoa at this time was ruled by a governor of Milan, Agostino Adorno. Genoa factions tended to revolve around personalities and families, and thus would look something like this: Adorno Family (Rulers); Campofregoso Family (which actually at this time was further subdivided between Battista Campofregoso and his uncle Cardinal Paolo Campofregoso); Fieschi Family. You might also add the Bank of Saint George, which controlled most of the public spending.

This is on the low side for the 1490s. More accurate numbers would be from the French Italian Wars of 1490s which had 12,000-25,000 men per side (as a side note, France raising 25,000 men put it into serious debt).Thanks Strategos. To make such a scenario work, incomes will have to be constrained by various costs.

As far as Europe goes, militiamen of some kind are a persistent feature of most armies, and actually make up a majority of forces in some of them for more than a hundred years after this time frame. Standing armies are hella expensive and somewhat uncommon. The French have only had their compagnies d'ordonnance for a few decades, after all.Milita or mercenaries?

In this period, the knights would probably comprise something like a tenth of a force from 5,000 to 8,000 men strong. The other ninety percent are their personal men-at-arms, which fight under the direction of a knight (each of these units is a banner). A significant other portion would be made up by mercenaries, probably something equal to or greater than the knightly portion (during the Thirteen Years' War earlier in the century, Hochmeister von Erlichshausen began the war with 15,000 soldiers, about half of whom were mercenaries). It's true that the Order contains significant estates elsewhere in Germany and Italy, but those are somewhat limited compared to the Prussian and Livonian properties now, and the German master (who is in charge of the stuff in the HRE) is mostly a recruiter - this is obviously a highly important job :p - and treasurer now.So Prussian armies could be structured so that you recruit knights and get knights and men at arms and then fill out your army with mercenaries. Or would "knights" be a standing army force of a few thousand men?

Notice to all Players and knowledgable lurkers:

I am compiling factions for nations, so post your thoughts on your factions. No more than 5 please. If you knowa little something about them, you may include that too. Lurkers feel free to add your knowledge to the pool.

Here is my factions. If someone has corrections to make, please do.

-Joachim I Nestor, Elector of Brandenburg: The Prince-Elector of Brandenburg. A strong Catholic and patron of learning.
-Nobles: Weakened in recent years with increased Hohenzollern control. They remain mostly loyal out of fear of losing more power and no where else to turn.
-The Peasants: Although two major rebellions have occurred within the last 50 years, Joachim's more reasonable policies have increased their loyalty towards the monarchy.
-The Catholic Church: Very strongly tied to the monarchy in Brandenburg. Albert, the Archbishop of Madeburg is the Prince-Elector's brother.
-Burghers-Some in the merchant class are upset over the weakening of the Hanseatic League in favor of the monarchy.

Ottomans:

Imperial Harem/Vali Sultan
The Divan/Grand Vizer
Jassinaries/Military
Beys (Governors)
Millets

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_the_Ottoman_Empire

I'd say pretty much everyone used it.

And it was used by the Vijaynagar Empire for instance. This describes the various vassals of the empire and the forces under their command.Thanks, nice information.

I'm not sure that we will have million man armies, but Asian nations will be able to recruit in significant larger numbers than Europeans. I am assuming that garrisons are always in place at key spots, so field armies are all that will need to be accounted for.

Here is my factions. If someone has corrections to make, please do.

-Joachim I Nestor, Elector of Brandenburg: The Prince-Elector of Brandenburg. A strong Catholic and patron of learning.
-Nobles: Weakened in recent years with increased Hohenzollern control. They remain mostly loyal out of fear of losing more power and no where else to turn.
-The Peasants: Although two major rebellions have occurred within the last 50 years, Joachim's more reasonable policies have increased their loyalty towards the monarchy.
-The Catholic Church: Very strongly tied to the monarchy in Brandenburg. Albert, the Archbishop of Madeburg is the Prince-Elector's brother.
-Burghers-Some in the merchant class are upset over the weakening of the Hanseatic League in favor of the monarchy.Excellent!

Ottomans:

Imperial Harem/Vali Sultan
The Divan/Grand Vizer
Jassinaries/Military
Beys (Governors)
MilletsMillets??

Millets??

The millet concept has a similarity to autonomous territories that has long been the European norm for dealing with minority groups.

People were bound to their millets by their religious affiliations (or their confessional communities), rather than their ethnic origins, according to the millet concept.[2] The head of a millet, most often a religious hierarch such as the Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Constantinople, reported directly to the Ottoman Sultan. The millets had a great deal of power — they set their own laws and collected and distributed their own taxes. All that was insisted was loyalty to the Empire. When a member of one millet committed a crime against a member of another, the law of the injured party applied, but the ruling Islamic majority being paramount, any dispute involving a Muslim fell under their sharia−based law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millet_(Ottoman_Empire)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millet_(Ottoman_Empire)How about the peasants? Is there a need for them as a faction?

Milita or mercenaries?
Militia. Standing armies are expensive, militiamen aren't. Even in the sixteenth century, levies are widely used - there's the obvious example of the Swedish utskrivning, and the levies that Erik XIV used to push back the Danes in the Nordic Seven Years' War; the Poles and Lithuanians relied on a wholly levy army except for small rapid-reaction forces in the Ukraine to deal with Tatar incursions and one slightly larger force that dealt with the Ottomans; the Muscovites are using their pomest'e system of service, which is definitely not a standing army...Strategos can probably provide better examples from Western Europe.
So Prussian armies could be structured so that you recruit knights and get knights and men at arms and then fill out your army with mercenaries. Or would "knights" be a standing army force of a few thousand men?
There would be a standing force of something like a thousand knights, probably a little less, who are heavily armed and serve as both heavy cavalry and heavy infantry. In this period they're more often paid with land grants in Prussia and Livonia than a direct monetary salary (which is, in a roundabout way, a transfer of money from the central Order exchequer to the knightly pockets). There are then about ten times as many men-at-arms, billeted in both the Order castles and knightly estates, which (depending on where they are) are maintained either by the Order or by the knights they fight under. These make up the core half of the army, which would then be filled out by mercenaries.

Austrian Factions are below!

House of Habsburg/Hapsburg (Rulers): Technically, Frederick III Habsburg is head of the House, and Holy Roman Emperor, in 1490, though in reality, the Habsburgs are lead by Maximillian I Habsburg.
Clergy (Catholic): The Church has a fairly large amount of sway over the rabidly Catholic Habsburgs.
Austrian Peasantry: Peasants are malcontents. Nothing more to it.
Dutch Nobles: Not too fond of being ruled by the Habsburgs, and especially not fond of Maximillian.
Dutch Free Cities: See above, but substitute "free city" for "noble". Their goals don't also agree with those of the Dutch nobles, either, and neither group really aims for a unified Dutch state, they just want the Habsburgs out.

How about the peasants? Is there a need for them as a faction?

Yes there should be, there were some notable "peasant" rebellions in the Ottoman Empire. You can replace the millets I guess.

For instance:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jelali_revolts


Oppressed peasants and declining timariot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timariots) system. The Ottoman taxation system was based on agriculture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture) and the major share was collected off from peasants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peasant) toiling for the local feudal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feudal) lords who were in turn taxed by the local government to pay the muqata'ah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muqata%27ah). When tax rates were raised for the local governors due to devaluation of the currency and enormous expenses of the state caused by newly conquered lands and military campaigns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_campaign), the feudal agricultural lords illegally increased the amount of tax they demanded from the peasants. In the meanwhile, land evaluators started to demand bribes to refrain from assessing higher values for land value taxes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_value_tax). Consequently, many peasants started to quit being laborers for feudal lords, emigrating (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emigration) to larger provinces either to join governors' forces as sekbans or to become vagabonds (levends). These numerous peasants were required to pay even further taxes for disrupting the system, but still, the population increased in large cities and unemployment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unemployment) rate increased sharply. During wartime the sekbans served the governors and drew regular pay. In peacetime, however, they were not paid, and they resorted to banditry. The first rebellions were, in nature, merely raids by sekbans commanded by their governors and joined by levends to extort more money from the public. They were later joined by sipahis, who had lost their land grants, levends, and Turkmen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkmen_people) and Kurdish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds) nomads.

There were a variety of revolts due to excessive taxation, or corruption by officals or what not. So I guess peasants should be a factor in the Ottoman Empire. They seem to have more impact than the Millets so you can proabaly replace the millets.

Rules addition:

Levies are troops that are quickly raised and equally quickly set home once they have served their purpose. In this game they will be lower priced recruits that you can order up for attack or defense. They probably won’t appear in stats, but will go into battle resolution if you include them in your orders and provide for recruiting costs.

Scotland
James IV - young king of Scotland, figurehead of the latter rebellion against his father King James III.

Nobles - Composed of many internal factions of varying independence, cooperation, and antagonism. Includes those rebellious forces that opposed James III and helped to put James IV on the throne.

Parliament - for much of the reign of James III parliament was at a rather high point of influence and frequently antagonistic towards his efforts. Historically, James IV had a rather better relationship with parliament (hardly difficult), but eventually came to ignore and circumvent it when he could afford to.
{
the first estate of prelates (bishops and abbots)
the second estate of lairds (dukes, earls, parliamentary peers and lay tenants-in-chief)
the third estate of burgh commissioners (representatives chosen by the royal burghs)
}

Lord of the Isles - Though long a powerful (de facto nearly independent) force in Western Scotland (chiefly maritime), of late this faction has declined significantly in strength and autonomy. In the early 1480s the largely ineffective John of Islay was defeated and replaced by his bastard son Aonghas Og, who may or may not be murdered in 1490.

Peasants - Poor them.

Scotland
James IV - young king of Scotland, figurehead of the latter rebellion against his father King James III.

Nobles - Composed of many internal factions of varying independence, cooperation, and antagonism. Includes those rebellious forces that opposed James III and helped to put James IV on the throne.

Parliament - for much of the reign of James III parliament was at a rather high point of influence and frequently antagonistic towards his efforts. Historically, James IV had a rather better relationship with parliament (hardly difficult), but eventually came to ignore and circumvent it when he could afford to.
{
the first estate of prelates (bishops and abbots)
the second estate of lairds (dukes, earls, parliamentary peers and lay tenants-in-chief)
the third estate of burgh commissioners (representatives chosen by the royal burghs)
}

Lord of the Isles - Though long a powerful (de facto nearly independent) force in Western Scotland (chiefly maritime), of late this faction has declined significantly in strength and autonomy. In the early 1480s the largely ineffective John of Islay was defeated and replaced by his bastard son Aonghas Og, who may or may not be murdered in 1490.

Peasants - Poor them.

You have 7 factions; that's too many. The Ruler's plus 5 more max.

Notice to all Players and knowledgable lurkers:

I am compiling factions for nations, so post your thoughts on your factions. No more than 5 please. If you knowa little something about them, you may include that too. Lurkers feel free to add your knowledge to the pool.

Ethiopia
-Solomonic King Constantine II
-The Palace forces of Queen Mother Eleni
-(this one is iffy) The Pretender Na'Od
- The Ethipian Orthodox Church & Patriarch

Parliament is intended to be one faction.

I redid the Ottomans:

House of Osman-The ruling house of the Ottomans, the Sultan who rules the nation
Imperial Harem-The Queen mother (Vali Sultan) of the Sultan, who runs the harem and deals with harem politics often managing to rule in her own right
Divan-The council of ministers lead by the Grand Vizer who help shape policy but later on managed to rule the state himself sidelining the Sultan
Janissary-The elite military slave soldiers who play a role in politics and gain favors, power, wealth and privilege initially usually loyal they steadily gained in power and often revolted
Peasants-Unwashed masses

I'll have factions soon...

Jagiellons-Royal family of the monarchy
Nobles- Very large class for Europe, 7 out of 10 people in this class, possible hindrance for royals.
The Church (Catholic)- what do you think?
Peasants- Poor people.

All I can think of for now. If anybody else wishes to help, please do.